EPTIs it really possible? - Page 3
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cgrinker
United States3824 Posts
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Sadist
United States7094 Posts
On January 15 2009 10:15 AttackZerg wrote: The only B+ player in the thread who has posted doesn't think its possible. BTW im B+ and I think its possible if we are talking concentrated practice with help, hell yes people can get there. The problem is most people (myself) practice with 0 purpose or dont really know how to practice. Its not fun for most people to analyze their play and try to fix it, its easier to bitch and moan(like me!). For some people its scary to invest that much time, if you fail that would suck. Even if you arent afraid of investing the time, to most it wouldn't be worth it at all. Let me also explain something. IMO it has little to do with talent below the absolute highest levels(say top 30-50 kespa) Sure there are talented players out there (the one that comes to mind first to me and probably most people is Ret) but its more about circumstance and practicing and having people help you than anything else. I myself lucked out early on and got to play with Kiwi while i was an unknown player and didnt really have anybody to play with. After playing with kiwi i started to play with marshallfaulk and from there the rest of the usa gamers, maybe if i never played with kiwi I would have never played with any of these other players and never gotten to the level of play i currently am at. THat doesnt mean im better than some person whos struggling with a certain part of their game, they might just need an outside perspective or suggestion and they could improve their gameplay in leaps and bounds. I dont know about you guys, but when Ive improved (back when I actually played quite a bit) it wasnt slowly, it was like magic, id be struggling struggling struggling, then all of a sudden something clicks and I think about something differently and all of a sudden im playing great with tons of confidence. If you dont have access to the right environment its VERY difficult to get good at anything unless its something where natural ability (ala athletics....say basketball or football) can get you far enough to where you can get formal training. I dont know if theres a skill cap, we're talking about kids playing these games, not adults who are seriously motivated and treat their profession like an actual profession. I mean you got guys who drop the fuck off for years in progaming and from an outsiders perspective they seem totally content with it. Thats definately a young persons mindset. If we had tons of people who were adults set in their life and had played forever and gotten tons of help but never got better, maybe wed have an arguement about a skill cap, but to me without that its hard to make. I dont know how good I could get if i played 24/7 and analyzed my game, I dont want to play that much its not worth it, and im sure thats how it is for TONS of people. Im sure that takes out a good percentage of players who may have the potential to be good, but dont have the desire or will to go for it. Anybody on this forum though with enough practice can get to B, seriously B is nothing amazing. Its not some magical rank where all of a sudden players are 1000x better, sure people are good at B but you can get on a hot streak and just be playing well and get to B and then you are there and its no big deal. | ||
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gg_hertzz
2152 Posts
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On January 15 2009 11:14 Sadist wrote: im B+ and I think its possible if we are talking concentrated practice with help, hell yes people can get there. The problem is most people (myself) practice with 0 purpose or dont really know how to practice. Its not fun for most people to analyze their play and try to fix it, its easier to bitch and moan(like me!). For some people its scary to invest that much time, if you fail that would suck. Even if you arent afraid of investing the time, to most it wouldn't be worth it at all. Do you honestly think anyone would be as good as Bisu or Flash if they did the exact same practice regime and had the same dedication? Or anyone would get as good as Nony praccing on their own without a proteam? | ||
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AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
You aren't currently b+ Last season I only saw you on b- accounts .. you smurf you high b's? | ||
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Sadist
United States7094 Posts
On January 15 2009 11:37 AttackZerg wrote: You aren't currently b+ Last season I only saw you on b- accounts .. you smurf you high b's? um no, go check my acc i was 87-50 Being as good as Bisu and Flash, thats talent at the highest levels, but they still were fortunate to get where they were. You change some circumstances and maybe its another talented player there. I though the argument had shifted to getting to B and peoples natural ability having a cap (To the guy who posted after me) And we are talking about starcraft, not something with some crazy fast twitch ability or something you need some crazy athletic ability to be good at regardless of how "skilled" you might be at it or not (ala basketball or football, gl doing shit when you are 5'8" and fat playing basketball, you can nail shit from halfcourt but it wouldnt matter because you are short and cant guard the athletes) | ||
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TheFlashyOne
Canada450 Posts
On January 15 2009 11:45 Sadist wrote: Being as good as Bisu and Flash, thats talent at the highest levels True. On January 15 2009 11:45 Sadist wrote: but they still were fortunate to get where they were. You change some circumstances and maybe its another talented player there. Not True. The circumstances for these guys are all identical. Young Korean males in their mid to late teens. Got hooked with SC. Became good after a while. Started practicing like mad. Got great. Worked on their games, watched replays, had a great system and amazing partners to practice. Found an old gosu to act as their teacher to help them scratch the limits of their potential. Became Progamers. Circumstances dont change. Talent reigns supreme. | ||
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On January 15 2009 11:45 Sadist wrote: And we are talking about starcraft, not something with some crazy fast twitch ability or something you need some crazy athletic ability to be good at regardless of how "skilled" you might be at it or not (ala basketball or football, gl doing shit when you are 5'8" and fat playing basketball, you can nail shit from halfcourt but it wouldnt matter because you are short and cant guard the athletes) Do you think everyone have the same potential in other things that dont have physical requirements like dart, bowling, snooker ect ? | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
It just takes practice, which requires the right personality, some people aren't really that focussed on mastering things and tend to give up easily and move on to another more successful activity to cope with failure rather than mastering something. And obviously being introverted helps (in the way that they usually have less social contacts, so more time), among other things. But anyone could do it pretty easily if you pushed him. Perseverance is the hard part, the person in question needs to have some kind of intrinsic motivation for reaching his goal, otherwise he'd just give up after you stop pushing him. | ||
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fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On January 15 2009 09:37 AttackZerg wrote: No. No. No.No. The average player can never reach current B on iccup sorry. physical cordination, real time thinking, memory, aggression.... sorry I think the reason that after all these years there are more fans of pro gamers and less then 300 or so of them in the world at this game, speaks volumes. There is a such thing as talent. I don't like it because it means somethings no matter how hard I'll try I can never be the best, but part of growing up is growing to live with that. The average person of this forum couldn't reach be within a year if they started at d infact I think even with a full time playing schedule most of them couldn't do it in 2 or 3. How many of you have been playing broodwar for years and never gotten good. Fact most players don't have the talent to play at a higher level. Multi-tasking is a mental feat and some people just can't do it. There are players who have a perfect rythmic comprehension of broodwar micro, I don't, I sure as fuck can kill a few marines, but no matter how long I practiced I wouldn't have the artstry of yellow,luxury,zero or jaedong. I think alot of people need to get real about the fact that limitations hold people back. most people aren't willing to put in the time to get to b. It takes a lot of effort. Don't just assume its all talent because it makes you feel warm inside I agree 100% with frits' post | ||
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TheFlashyOne
Canada450 Posts
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AttackZerg
United States7453 Posts
only a bad player could believe that dude. Seriously not everybody can play chess at all. After 6 years of study and tournament play, I know first hand that is not the case. | ||
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Sadist
United States7094 Posts
On January 15 2009 11:57 Oystein wrote: Do you think everyone have the same potential in other things that dont have physical requirements like dart, bowling, snooker ect ? Pool Bowling and darts have a lot to do with the persons personal makeup. I obviously think there are people who have better hand eye coordination than other people, that definately helps in things like darts bowling and snooker, but there are tons of people with great hand eye coordination that dont succeed at the highest levels in things like that because of mental makeup. In games like that theres little difference between the top player and the 100th player except for the mental side of the game. Its just like golf. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
On January 15 2009 12:00 TheFlashyOne wrote: Chess doesn't require any athletic abilities. Tommorow, imma start playing 15 hours a day and i'll be able to pnw Kasparov , Anand and Kramnik in a few years and become a Chess millionaire. If you're over 12 it's probably already too late, developing good chunking abilities at chess takes a lot of practice at a young age. | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
On January 15 2009 12:01 AttackZerg wrote: frits hahah about your chess comment only a bad player could believe that dude. Seriously not everybody can play chess at all. After 6 years of study and tournament play, I know first hand that is not the case. Your argument is based on your pride and anecdotal evidence, mine is based on famous psychological research. Being a bad player has nothing to do with it. And it's not like you know how much time each kid invests in chess, how much they care about winning, how much they obsess over it, your first hand experience is meaningless. And your examples of multi tasking and stuff like that required in sc? Any kid could learn it, I guarantee it. | ||
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On January 15 2009 12:05 Frits wrote: If you're over 12 it's probably already too late, developing good chunking abilities at chess takes a lot of practice at a young age. So what was it when Magnus Karlsen became GM at age 13? Just pure work and mental strength and no talent and any 13 year old could do that? | ||
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Frits
11782 Posts
On January 15 2009 12:08 Oystein wrote: So what was it when Magnus Karlsen became GM at age 13? Just pure work and mental strength and no talent and any 13 year old could do that? You're using 1 exceptional example to try and disprove a theory that goes for 99% of the population. I never said there is no such thing as talent. Why think in absolutes? Haven't you ever heard of a normal distribution? | ||
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Sadist
United States7094 Posts
At the highest levels of ANYTHING talent is always going to be a huge factor if not the biggest factor. But practice and working hard at things that you arent really dealt a bad hand in (such as the whole 5'8" basketball thing) can get you pretty damn far. Farther than someone who might have more talent than you but doesnt put forth enough effort. | ||
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On January 15 2009 12:14 Frits wrote: You're using 1 exceptional example to try and disprove a theory that goes for 99% of the population. I never said there is no such thing as talent. Why think in absolutes? Haven't you ever heard of a normal distribution? I dont think in absolutes, i said earlier in this thread I believe most people have the ability to get far with the right training, dedication ect, iv only been pointing out all the time that there IS talent to things even if it only shows at the highest skill levels of whatever you do. If 2 people do the exact same training regime ect live identical lives in their own separate bodies do you think they would be equally skilled after certain amount of times in things, be it BW, Chess or playing a guitar? Because some people learn faster and have a higher skill ceiling than others, dont you consider them more talented? | ||
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Mikilatov
United States3897 Posts
On January 15 2009 12:23 Oystein wrote: I dont think in absolutes, i said earlier in this thread I believe most people have the ability to get far with the right training, dedication ect, iv only been pointing out all the time that there IS talent to things even if it only shows at the highest skill levels of whatever you do. If 2 people do the exact same training regime ect live identical lives in their own separate bodies do you think they would be equally skilled after certain amount of times in things, be it BW, Chess or playing a guitar? Because some people learn faster and have a higher skill ceiling than others, dont you consider them more talented? What you're failing to understand is that everyone who is saying it -is- possible to reach around a "B" level isn't denying the existence of talent. They're simply stating that given the time and commitment, anyone can become quite a high-level player. They may not be able to reach it as quickly as others, but as long as they can PHYSICALLY do it, it is indeed possible for them to become as good as their body will let them physically. These restraints will grow as they play, but at some point, a person just simply can't move any faster, or more accurately, due to age/health/bones, etc. | ||
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