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Racenilatr
United States2756 Posts
Also if someone want's to be as fast as bisu and as good as flash(progamer in 2 years) is that actually possible? Or are they just exceptions O_O Since they can do it, can't we? Or do we each have our physical/mental limitations that will hinder us from being as good as some other people   | ||
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jello_biafra
United Kingdom6642 Posts
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H
New Zealand6138 Posts
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DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
For those people, they probably just don't have the free time/motivation to do it. Naturally Lee Young Ho and Kim Taek Yong have massive amounts of natural talent though. | ||
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Zapdos_Smithh
Canada2620 Posts
Second part, I'm not too sure. I mean it's possible if they play as much as them, and have been doing that for years, and have the same environment as them, but for most people (especially foreigners) probably not. | ||
Chill
Calgary26003 Posts
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Jonoman92
United States9110 Posts
Perhaps .01% of sc players have immense skill but even then they gotta put in the immense effort and have some luck to hit it big. | ||
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Zozma
United States1626 Posts
Still, take that with a grain of salt. I'm D rated too. | ||
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minus_human
4784 Posts
 ) . What is retaining most people from becoming good is the lack of dedication and effort. There is a whole type of persons that are naturally weak-willed, and for those it's nearly impossible to continue any consistent effort of this magnitude for so long. Also there are those who can't stand so much routine, or are extremely extroverted would feel that laying so many hours per day is excruciating to their general morale. Some people find their own, unique and somewhat radical styles that could probably keep them at a medium (C) level on Iccup, however I think it is harder for those people to learn to execute build orders correctly, improve their mechanics, gain 250+ apm and basically head for the top of the ladder than it would be for the random noob, if he's guided by better players. Don't be fooled though, even despite the fact that many SC players could become progamers,(maybe except really REALLY slow/stupid people, as in, those with painfully slow reflexes/thinking, but those don't really stay on ICCUP for long.), the case of someone having such a deep perspective and understanding on Starcraft like the likes of Bisu, Flash, savior oov nada boxer etc is EXTREMELY rare. Most people would become really good, but will lose alot at the top levels against the best of the best. | ||
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TheFlashyOne
Canada450 Posts
On January 15 2009 05:41 minus_human wrote: I think it's possible for almost anyone to become a progamer ?!?  Define Progamer. If i organize a LAN party in my hood and i use my business contacts to bribe someone into getting us a corporate sponsorship and then go on to invite a few of my D and C's friends. I then proceed to bash them. Do i call myself a progamer? Or do you mean progaming in Korea , which is many notches above the A rank on ICCUP and which is roughly formed of the best ~300 SC gamers out of a population of about 10million copies sold...and i'd guess about 2 or 3 million active players. Most of the people in that active population play at least regularly and a small but still significant percentage has their lives revolving around SC and countless gamers (few in % terms but very high in absolute terms) are just obsessed about the game and play 10 hours a day. Now you're telling me that anyone can make it in the top300 ? Riiiiiiight. Can anyone make it in the NHL/NBA/Premier league Football if they are dedicated, talented, practice a lot and have the right attitude. Sorry buddy. Its a numbers game that you dont understand. 0.0001% You can practice more in SC than you can in sports so your level of practice will have more impact on your game but the talent requirement is way too high. The reality is that 90% of people will be capped at C+ or B- no matter how much they play. | ||
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TheFlashyOne
Canada450 Posts
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GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
To reach a progaming status, you need to have a lot more dedication, practice, and time to play even more. There aren't many people who are willing to spend 10-14 hours a day, every day to get their mechanics and decisionmaking to the point where they can be a progamer. However, there's nothing other than that dedication that makes it so that most people cannot be progamers. There's no height requirement (most progamers are pretty short), no strength requirement (best looks like he's anorexic), no weight requirement (july, and best). Just your mind, dedication, and will to win to be able to become a progamer. To become the best of the best...is almost impossible ^_^ | ||
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PH
United States6173 Posts
For the average person making it to B level...yeah, like Chill said, with the right teacher, time, environment and dedication, sure, why not. | ||
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minus_human
4784 Posts
On January 15 2009 06:19 TheFlashyOne wrote: you edited it from almost anyone to 'a wide array' but you're still way off. Well I edited it before you posted. Still, if you read my whole post, you will see I exclude a lot of people from the category which is capable of reaching progamer level And I think it's pretty obvious what a progamer is, yes it IS defined by playing Starcraft as a living, but honestly I think it's transparent that by reaching progamer level I meant reaching the level of play currently present in the South Korean professional Starcraft scene. Firstly, in my opinion you are mistaken, because if you consider the sheer amount of practice spent and the high level guidance Koreans receive (admittedly, maybe I did not emphasize enough on this!), a great many players of Iccup (with the proper, constant concentration on the game) )would reach a very high level, but they would still suck enough (relatively) so that we would never hear of them, like we never hear of tens if not over a hundred Korean progamers who are simply never successful enough to achieve anything, And secondly, your logic seems flawed, because the top 300 is not formed out of all the players who bought those 10 milion copies, and not even out of all the players that actively played on Bnet out of those who bought the game. It is formed out of those roughly 4 milion who bought the game IN KOREA (HINT HINT ALL THE PROS ARE KOREAN) Of course there are many people obsessed with the game who will never be more than D+ noobs, but that is because, as Artosis explained here+ Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78677 (don't bash anything, I love Nony and I think he has the best potential of succeeding in Korea out of all the foreigners who tried in the last 5 years, ESPECIALLY because of the way he trained) Even the TL strategy forum, which is the best English SC-related forum on the net, is a joke compared to the level of input a Korean coach and a team of pros can exert onto you. In fact, I bet (this is just my personal opinion without any tangible evidence) that 98% of the replays posted in the Strategy section of TL would be simply and rapidly dismissed on a respected Korean SC forum, as the players asking for help here would get next to zero feedback there until they would get their mechanics WAY WAY better. So don't think the players that could reach a very high level of play are actually that scarce. Of course not everybody could make it in the top 300 just like that, not only because it simply doesn't fit, but despite the fact that many would be prepared mechanical wise to confront the current successful progamers, there is a certain mental aspect of SC that requires just plain raw talent and intelligence/understanding. | ||
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On January 15 2009 06:25 GHOSTCLAW wrote: I think that it's possible for anyone to reach the B level on iccup if they're willing to play and practice enough, with the right teachers and advice. Ideally they would have a few people who are consistently better than they are to tell them what they're doing wrong, and to give them strategy advice. With the right help, anyone can reach B. To reach a progaming status, you need to have a lot more dedication, practice, and time to play even more. There aren't many people who are willing to spend 10-14 hours a day, every day to get their mechanics and decisionmaking to the point where they can be a progamer. However, there's nothing other than that dedication that makes it so that most people cannot be progamers. There's no height requirement (most progamers are pretty short), no strength requirement (best looks like he's anorexic), no weight requirement (july, and best). Just your mind, dedication, and will to win to be able to become a progamer. To become the best of the best...is almost impossible ^_^ There might not be physical requirements like that, but dexterity, eye to hand coordination, reflexes, ability for your brain to multitask, handspeed ect is required and thats not something everyone have. If you think everyone could be as good and fast as Bisu if they had the exact same dedication and training he have your awfully wrong, I know I wouldnt be as good as him even if I had lived an identical "bw life" as him. Just like I know I wouldnt be as good as Roger Federer at tennis even if I had lived an identical life as he has done. If it was nothing more than dedication would not all those top amateurs that practice 12hours a day with pros all be progamers by now? Anyone who thinks everyone got the same potential at getting good at BW is seriously disillusioned. As for the OP question I think alot people would be able to get to B with the proper training, teachers ect, but not everyone. | ||
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petzergling
538 Posts
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selboN
United States2523 Posts
On January 15 2009 06:39 Oystein wrote: Just like I know I wouldnt be as good as Roger Federer at tennis even if I had lived an identical life as he has done. Terrible comparison. Physical talent is much more prevalent than this mental capacity stuff you're inferring progamers must have. | ||
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TheFlashyOne
Canada450 Posts
dont increase your restrictions by saying 'im excluding a lot of people that cannot be progamers...the rest, come on in buddy!' ...what you meant to do was excluding everyone but the 0.00001% It comes down to talent buddy. | ||
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Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On January 15 2009 06:45 selboN wrote: Terrible comparison. Physical talent is much more prevalent than this mental capacity stuff you're inferring progamers must have. Bowling or something similar, whatever something that dont require physical requirements per say. It was just to show something else I didnt think I would be as good at as. | ||
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Zozma
United States1626 Posts
But if another person had these things, said person could be just as good. APM isn't as large a factor as people make it out to be. Savior[gm] had his bonjwa reign with about 200 APM, and the highest APM player in the history of the league is Eliza, who doesn't really have that many accomplishments. Almost anyone can get their APM to 200 with practice. | ||
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