| Blogs > Racenilatr |
|
Racenilatr
United States2756 Posts
Also if someone want's to be as fast as bisu and as good as flash(progamer in 2 years) is that actually possible? Or are they just exceptions O_O Since they can do it, can't we? Or do we each have our physical/mental limitations that will hinder us from being as good as some other people   | ||
|
jello_biafra
United Kingdom6635 Posts
| ||
|
H
New Zealand6138 Posts
| ||
|
DoctorHelvetica
United States15034 Posts
For those people, they probably just don't have the free time/motivation to do it. Naturally Lee Young Ho and Kim Taek Yong have massive amounts of natural talent though. | ||
|
Zapdos_Smithh
Canada2620 Posts
Second part, I'm not too sure. I mean it's possible if they play as much as them, and have been doing that for years, and have the same environment as them, but for most people (especially foreigners) probably not. | ||
Chill
Calgary25979 Posts
| ||
|
Jonoman92
United States9103 Posts
Perhaps .01% of sc players have immense skill but even then they gotta put in the immense effort and have some luck to hit it big. | ||
|
Zozma
United States1626 Posts
Still, take that with a grain of salt. I'm D rated too. | ||
|
minus_human
4784 Posts
 ) . What is retaining most people from becoming good is the lack of dedication and effort. There is a whole type of persons that are naturally weak-willed, and for those it's nearly impossible to continue any consistent effort of this magnitude for so long. Also there are those who can't stand so much routine, or are extremely extroverted would feel that laying so many hours per day is excruciating to their general morale. Some people find their own, unique and somewhat radical styles that could probably keep them at a medium (C) level on Iccup, however I think it is harder for those people to learn to execute build orders correctly, improve their mechanics, gain 250+ apm and basically head for the top of the ladder than it would be for the random noob, if he's guided by better players. Don't be fooled though, even despite the fact that many SC players could become progamers,(maybe except really REALLY slow/stupid people, as in, those with painfully slow reflexes/thinking, but those don't really stay on ICCUP for long.), the case of someone having such a deep perspective and understanding on Starcraft like the likes of Bisu, Flash, savior oov nada boxer etc is EXTREMELY rare. Most people would become really good, but will lose alot at the top levels against the best of the best. | ||
|
TheFlashyOne
Canada450 Posts
On January 15 2009 05:41 minus_human wrote: I think it's possible for almost anyone to become a progamer ?!?  Define Progamer. If i organize a LAN party in my hood and i use my business contacts to bribe someone into getting us a corporate sponsorship and then go on to invite a few of my D and C's friends. I then proceed to bash them. Do i call myself a progamer? Or do you mean progaming in Korea , which is many notches above the A rank on ICCUP and which is roughly formed of the best ~300 SC gamers out of a population of about 10million copies sold...and i'd guess about 2 or 3 million active players. Most of the people in that active population play at least regularly and a small but still significant percentage has their lives revolving around SC and countless gamers (few in % terms but very high in absolute terms) are just obsessed about the game and play 10 hours a day. Now you're telling me that anyone can make it in the top300 ? Riiiiiiight. Can anyone make it in the NHL/NBA/Premier league Football if they are dedicated, talented, practice a lot and have the right attitude. Sorry buddy. Its a numbers game that you dont understand. 0.0001% You can practice more in SC than you can in sports so your level of practice will have more impact on your game but the talent requirement is way too high. The reality is that 90% of people will be capped at C+ or B- no matter how much they play. | ||
|
TheFlashyOne
Canada450 Posts
| ||
GHOSTCLAW
United States17042 Posts
To reach a progaming status, you need to have a lot more dedication, practice, and time to play even more. There aren't many people who are willing to spend 10-14 hours a day, every day to get their mechanics and decisionmaking to the point where they can be a progamer. However, there's nothing other than that dedication that makes it so that most people cannot be progamers. There's no height requirement (most progamers are pretty short), no strength requirement (best looks like he's anorexic), no weight requirement (july, and best). Just your mind, dedication, and will to win to be able to become a progamer. To become the best of the best...is almost impossible ^_^ | ||
|
PH
United States6173 Posts
For the average person making it to B level...yeah, like Chill said, with the right teacher, time, environment and dedication, sure, why not. | ||
|
minus_human
4784 Posts
On January 15 2009 06:19 TheFlashyOne wrote: you edited it from almost anyone to 'a wide array' but you're still way off. Well I edited it before you posted. Still, if you read my whole post, you will see I exclude a lot of people from the category which is capable of reaching progamer level And I think it's pretty obvious what a progamer is, yes it IS defined by playing Starcraft as a living, but honestly I think it's transparent that by reaching progamer level I meant reaching the level of play currently present in the South Korean professional Starcraft scene. Firstly, in my opinion you are mistaken, because if you consider the sheer amount of practice spent and the high level guidance Koreans receive (admittedly, maybe I did not emphasize enough on this!), a great many players of Iccup (with the proper, constant concentration on the game) )would reach a very high level, but they would still suck enough (relatively) so that we would never hear of them, like we never hear of tens if not over a hundred Korean progamers who are simply never successful enough to achieve anything, And secondly, your logic seems flawed, because the top 300 is not formed out of all the players who bought those 10 milion copies, and not even out of all the players that actively played on Bnet out of those who bought the game. It is formed out of those roughly 4 milion who bought the game IN KOREA (HINT HINT ALL THE PROS ARE KOREAN) Of course there are many people obsessed with the game who will never be more than D+ noobs, but that is because, as Artosis explained here+ Show Spoiler + http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=78677 (don't bash anything, I love Nony and I think he has the best potential of succeeding in Korea out of all the foreigners who tried in the last 5 years, ESPECIALLY because of the way he trained) Even the TL strategy forum, which is the best English SC-related forum on the net, is a joke compared to the level of input a Korean coach and a team of pros can exert onto you. In fact, I bet (this is just my personal opinion without any tangible evidence) that 98% of the replays posted in the Strategy section of TL would be simply and rapidly dismissed on a respected Korean SC forum, as the players asking for help here would get next to zero feedback there until they would get their mechanics WAY WAY better. So don't think the players that could reach a very high level of play are actually that scarce. Of course not everybody could make it in the top 300 just like that, not only because it simply doesn't fit, but despite the fact that many would be prepared mechanical wise to confront the current successful progamers, there is a certain mental aspect of SC that requires just plain raw talent and intelligence/understanding. | ||
|
Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On January 15 2009 06:25 GHOSTCLAW wrote: I think that it's possible for anyone to reach the B level on iccup if they're willing to play and practice enough, with the right teachers and advice. Ideally they would have a few people who are consistently better than they are to tell them what they're doing wrong, and to give them strategy advice. With the right help, anyone can reach B. To reach a progaming status, you need to have a lot more dedication, practice, and time to play even more. There aren't many people who are willing to spend 10-14 hours a day, every day to get their mechanics and decisionmaking to the point where they can be a progamer. However, there's nothing other than that dedication that makes it so that most people cannot be progamers. There's no height requirement (most progamers are pretty short), no strength requirement (best looks like he's anorexic), no weight requirement (july, and best). Just your mind, dedication, and will to win to be able to become a progamer. To become the best of the best...is almost impossible ^_^ There might not be physical requirements like that, but dexterity, eye to hand coordination, reflexes, ability for your brain to multitask, handspeed ect is required and thats not something everyone have. If you think everyone could be as good and fast as Bisu if they had the exact same dedication and training he have your awfully wrong, I know I wouldnt be as good as him even if I had lived an identical "bw life" as him. Just like I know I wouldnt be as good as Roger Federer at tennis even if I had lived an identical life as he has done. If it was nothing more than dedication would not all those top amateurs that practice 12hours a day with pros all be progamers by now? Anyone who thinks everyone got the same potential at getting good at BW is seriously disillusioned. As for the OP question I think alot people would be able to get to B with the proper training, teachers ect, but not everyone. | ||
|
petzergling
538 Posts
| ||
|
selboN
United States2523 Posts
On January 15 2009 06:39 Oystein wrote: Just like I know I wouldnt be as good as Roger Federer at tennis even if I had lived an identical life as he has done. Terrible comparison. Physical talent is much more prevalent than this mental capacity stuff you're inferring progamers must have. | ||
|
TheFlashyOne
Canada450 Posts
dont increase your restrictions by saying 'im excluding a lot of people that cannot be progamers...the rest, come on in buddy!' ...what you meant to do was excluding everyone but the 0.00001% It comes down to talent buddy. | ||
|
Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On January 15 2009 06:45 selboN wrote: Terrible comparison. Physical talent is much more prevalent than this mental capacity stuff you're inferring progamers must have. Bowling or something similar, whatever something that dont require physical requirements per say. It was just to show something else I didnt think I would be as good at as. | ||
|
Zozma
United States1626 Posts
But if another person had these things, said person could be just as good. APM isn't as large a factor as people make it out to be. Savior[gm] had his bonjwa reign with about 200 APM, and the highest APM player in the history of the league is Eliza, who doesn't really have that many accomplishments. Almost anyone can get their APM to 200 with practice. | ||
|
Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On January 15 2009 06:49 Zozma wrote: When Flash was a baby, do you think he rolled out of the crib and started owning ICcup players? It's my belief that there's no such thing as talent. Those who are called "talented" simply have more dedication, or better teachers, or a good mental state, or a better system of learning. But if another person had these things, said person could be just as good. APM isn't as large a factor as people make it out to be. Savior[gm] had his bonjwa reign with about 200 APM, and the highest APM player in the history of the league is Eliza, who doesn't really have that many accomplishments. Almost anyone can get their APM to 200 with practice. Do you think Usain Bolt crawled out of his crib and started running 100meters? | ||
|
TheFlashyOne
Canada450 Posts
| ||
|
minus_human
4784 Posts
On January 15 2009 06:46 TheFlashyOne wrote: han 300 people practice SC for 10+ hours a day. thousands of people. tons of people have access to that guidance youre talking about. thousands of people. 300 spots is all we have. The best 300 will make it. the rest , sorry. dont increase your restrictions by saying 'im excluding a lot of people that cannot be progamers...the rest, come on in buddy!' ...what you meant to do was excluding everyone but the 0.00001% It comes down to talent buddy. Well in a certain way I agree, of course it comes down to talent, that's what I stated above After all, the top 300 couldn't fit more than 300! (lol) So, even if, in my opinion, a large mass of players would be able to achieve progamers mechanics/coordination/knowledge, the very cream will still consist of the current top 30 Kespa, Maybe with a couple of modifications. Yes it does come down to talent. | ||
|
minus_human
4784 Posts
Imagine if someone like Testie grew up in Korea. Lol. That would have been interesting! | ||
|
minus_human
4784 Posts
Though it is highly affected by training, talent does exist. A person with relatively slow reflexes can train to get better, and perhaps the respective person can even surpass another person who receives similar training but is more innately talented, however, when each person gets the training that is most effective for themselves(and when you play SC 12 hours per day for 2 years, to tend to become familiar with which training regimes suit you better), the one with TALENT will come ON TOP. It's the way life is. | ||
|
Zozma
United States1626 Posts
On January 15 2009 06:51 Oystein wrote: The fact that a baby can't run long distances doesn't have much to do with either of our arguments. Do you think Usain Bolt crawled out of his crib and started running 100meters? There's no doubt that there are certain physical conditions that will lend themselves to a "good runner" or a "bad runner", but if even someone who's had polio can recover and become a world-championship athlete again, I don't think that you can say that becoming great has more to do with how you're born than how you live. | ||
|
LuckyFool
United States9015 Posts
Of course learn the fundamentals first. And by fundamentals I mean learn how to execute build orders the proper way. Don't spend time worrying so much about splitting, or muta micro etc. Those things come later. They mean nothing if you don't have a solid knowledge of how to execute a BO. Also something that helped me greatly when I started getting serious was mimic'ing a pro style. I got as many Nada replays as possible, watched as many fpvods as possible. Try to do exactly what they do. At least that's what I did. (and still do) I once saw boxer spamming in the early game, warming up etc, he hotkeyed his first depot. To this day I still hotkey my first depot as I warm up in the early game. Starcraft is such a great game because there are so many different styles and builds to do. Leaves it open for you to find your niche. Also when your like C and below, it really helps to play other races and get a more full feel for the game. Know what you hate when your playing zerg vs protoss so that when your playing protoss vs zerg, you can do exactly that. Hope this helps. | ||
|
Racenilatr
United States2756 Posts
| ||
|
Jyvblamo
Canada13788 Posts
On January 15 2009 07:35 Racenilatr wrote: Well, also is there really like "talented" people in starcraft? Like lets say theres a person who practices alot and does everything correctly to get to a higher level. Then there's another person who does exactly the same thing, with the same conditions except he gets to the same level the other person is trying to get to faster. Can that happen? IIRC, in that old National Geographic documentary on Xellos, they did a brain scan of Xellos playing SC and a regular guy playing SC, and they found striking differences between the two. | ||
|
TheFlashyOne
Canada450 Posts
| ||
|
Sadist
United States7218 Posts
A lifelong golfer and former caddy, Tom Coyne could drive the ball 300 yards but always struggled against stiff competition; he had often wondered whether the pros won because they were more innately talented or just because they were more obsessed. On the cusp of turning thirty, overweight, and saddled with a 14 handicap, Coyne embarked on a yearlong quest to do everything he could to lift his game-and find out if he could make it through the PGA Tour Qualifying School. Paper Tiger takes you on a rollicking ride into the beer-gutted underbelly of semipro golf, into a world of crash diets, punishing workout regimens, high-flying sports shrinks, cutting-edge club technology, and obscure tournaments. With his girlfriend as caddy, Coyne traverses from Miami to Chicago to Toronto to see how he stacks up against the competition. Ultimately he takes his game to a new level-or at least a new continent-on the links of Australian Q-School, where amidst forty-mile-an-hour winds he must choose between the love of a fickle game and the love of the long-suffering woman who has stood by him throughout all the shanks, hooks, yips, and chili dips. Brimming with humor and insight about the world's most beautiful and maddening game, Paper Tiger will delight golfers and the sane people who love them. FYI he goes to Q School and doesnt make it (nerves get him) Q school is a 6 round tournament every year where the top 30 players get to the PGA Tour, after that people get membership to the minor league tours. I definitely think in something like BW this could be done if complete dedication was put forth. Golf is different though since its just you and the ball and you don't have to worry about better players imposing their will on you, like they could in something like Starcraft. | ||
|
Racenilatr
United States2756 Posts
On January 15 2009 07:44 TheFlashyOne wrote: Racenilatr ..i think we discussed that in the few posts above.. whoops! Was in the library and i was being rushed so i only read the first page and like only a couple posts on the second page O_o Complete dedication....having no social life whatsoever or very little methinks? idk but I think that it's still possible to have a social life and not have COMPLETE dedication if you spend your practice time correctly. Ofcourse you do have to have strong dedication but not to the point where like starcraft is your life and the only thing you do. | ||
|
Mikilatov
United States3897 Posts
On January 15 2009 07:42 Jyvblamo wrote: IIRC, in that old National Geographic documentary on Xellos, they did a brain scan of Xellos playing SC and a regular guy playing SC, and they found striking differences between the two. The brain scan involved natural reflexes from intuition, not the difference between two hardcore players. It was showing how his brain worked as opposed to someone else who didn't know much about SC. In short, it was proving that Xellos does most Starcraft actions from instinct, as opposed to interpreting what he sees through his eyes, then making a concious decision based upon that. It can naturally be assumed that the brainscans of any seasoned SC player (pro or not) would look similar to Xellos'. All in all, that study has nothing to do with the topic of this thread. On the topic, yes I believe most anyone who is willing to put forth the time and effort could become "B" level, and there would in fact be no maximum for almost any person. You can always improve at something if you continue to do it, and your physical condition allows it. HOWEVER, it would take some people FAR longer to achieve this skill than others, therefore making it impossible for them to reach a certain level, simply because time would not allow it. It may take someone 5 years to accomplish "B" level by playing X hours per day, while others could do it in 1, playing the same daily amount. The slower learner would likely never be able to achieve an extremely high level of skill, simply because time would not likely allow it. The slower learner would also have difficulties keeping up with changes within the scene as well. | ||
|
IzzyCraft
United States4487 Posts
| ||
|
hazz
United Kingdom570 Posts
| ||
|
jgad
Canada899 Posts
"A genius! For 37 years I’ve practiced fourteen hours a day, and now they call me a genius!” That said, if everyone at D could get as good as C, then D would just be the new C. Consider what 2001 era progamers would rank on ICC now, for example. In that sense, you can always get better, no matter what the grade, and you can always get better enough to be much better than most people. Only one person can win an OSL, though. That's the nature of the beast. | ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
The average player can never reach current B on iccup sorry. physical cordination, real time thinking, memory, aggression.... sorry I think the reason that after all these years there are more fans of pro gamers and less then 300 or so of them in the world at this game, speaks volumes. There is a such thing as talent. I don't like it because it means somethings no matter how hard I'll try I can never be the best, but part of growing up is growing to live with that. The average person of this forum couldn't reach be within a year if they started at d infact I think even with a full time playing schedule most of them couldn't do it in 2 or 3. How many of you have been playing broodwar for years and never gotten good. Fact most players don't have the talent to play at a higher level. Multi-tasking is a mental feat and some people just can't do it. There are players who have a perfect rythmic comprehension of broodwar micro, I don't, I sure as fuck can kill a few marines, but no matter how long I practiced I wouldn't have the artstry of yellow,luxury,zero or jaedong. I think alot of people need to get real about the fact that limitations hold people back. | ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
| ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
BTW | ||
|
TheFlashyOne
Canada450 Posts
To make it to B or above you need 2 things; 1. Be in the Top 10% talent wise of the active and competitive playing population 2. Practice your ass off. To Make it to A or above you need 2 things; 1. Be in the Top 1% talent wise of the active and competitive playing population 2. Practice your ass off. To make it to progaming levels, reduce the % to about 0.001% | ||
cgrinker
United States3824 Posts
| ||
|
Sadist
United States7218 Posts
On January 15 2009 10:15 AttackZerg wrote: The only B+ player in the thread who has posted doesn't think its possible. BTW im B+ and I think its possible if we are talking concentrated practice with help, hell yes people can get there. The problem is most people (myself) practice with 0 purpose or dont really know how to practice. Its not fun for most people to analyze their play and try to fix it, its easier to bitch and moan(like me!). For some people its scary to invest that much time, if you fail that would suck. Even if you arent afraid of investing the time, to most it wouldn't be worth it at all. Let me also explain something. IMO it has little to do with talent below the absolute highest levels(say top 30-50 kespa) Sure there are talented players out there (the one that comes to mind first to me and probably most people is Ret) but its more about circumstance and practicing and having people help you than anything else. I myself lucked out early on and got to play with Kiwi while i was an unknown player and didnt really have anybody to play with. After playing with kiwi i started to play with marshallfaulk and from there the rest of the usa gamers, maybe if i never played with kiwi I would have never played with any of these other players and never gotten to the level of play i currently am at. THat doesnt mean im better than some person whos struggling with a certain part of their game, they might just need an outside perspective or suggestion and they could improve their gameplay in leaps and bounds. I dont know about you guys, but when Ive improved (back when I actually played quite a bit) it wasnt slowly, it was like magic, id be struggling struggling struggling, then all of a sudden something clicks and I think about something differently and all of a sudden im playing great with tons of confidence. If you dont have access to the right environment its VERY difficult to get good at anything unless its something where natural ability (ala athletics....say basketball or football) can get you far enough to where you can get formal training. I dont know if theres a skill cap, we're talking about kids playing these games, not adults who are seriously motivated and treat their profession like an actual profession. I mean you got guys who drop the fuck off for years in progaming and from an outsiders perspective they seem totally content with it. Thats definately a young persons mindset. If we had tons of people who were adults set in their life and had played forever and gotten tons of help but never got better, maybe wed have an arguement about a skill cap, but to me without that its hard to make. I dont know how good I could get if i played 24/7 and analyzed my game, I dont want to play that much its not worth it, and im sure thats how it is for TONS of people. Im sure that takes out a good percentage of players who may have the potential to be good, but dont have the desire or will to go for it. Anybody on this forum though with enough practice can get to B, seriously B is nothing amazing. Its not some magical rank where all of a sudden players are 1000x better, sure people are good at B but you can get on a hot streak and just be playing well and get to B and then you are there and its no big deal. | ||
|
gg_hertzz
2152 Posts
| ||
|
Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On January 15 2009 11:14 Sadist wrote: im B+ and I think its possible if we are talking concentrated practice with help, hell yes people can get there. The problem is most people (myself) practice with 0 purpose or dont really know how to practice. Its not fun for most people to analyze their play and try to fix it, its easier to bitch and moan(like me!). For some people its scary to invest that much time, if you fail that would suck. Even if you arent afraid of investing the time, to most it wouldn't be worth it at all. Do you honestly think anyone would be as good as Bisu or Flash if they did the exact same practice regime and had the same dedication? Or anyone would get as good as Nony praccing on their own without a proteam? | ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
You aren't currently b+ Last season I only saw you on b- accounts .. you smurf you high b's? | ||
|
Sadist
United States7218 Posts
On January 15 2009 11:37 AttackZerg wrote: You aren't currently b+ Last season I only saw you on b- accounts .. you smurf you high b's? um no, go check my acc i was 87-50 Being as good as Bisu and Flash, thats talent at the highest levels, but they still were fortunate to get where they were. You change some circumstances and maybe its another talented player there. I though the argument had shifted to getting to B and peoples natural ability having a cap (To the guy who posted after me) And we are talking about starcraft, not something with some crazy fast twitch ability or something you need some crazy athletic ability to be good at regardless of how "skilled" you might be at it or not (ala basketball or football, gl doing shit when you are 5'8" and fat playing basketball, you can nail shit from halfcourt but it wouldnt matter because you are short and cant guard the athletes) | ||
|
TheFlashyOne
Canada450 Posts
On January 15 2009 11:45 Sadist wrote: Being as good as Bisu and Flash, thats talent at the highest levels True. On January 15 2009 11:45 Sadist wrote: but they still were fortunate to get where they were. You change some circumstances and maybe its another talented player there. Not True. The circumstances for these guys are all identical. Young Korean males in their mid to late teens. Got hooked with SC. Became good after a while. Started practicing like mad. Got great. Worked on their games, watched replays, had a great system and amazing partners to practice. Found an old gosu to act as their teacher to help them scratch the limits of their potential. Became Progamers. Circumstances dont change. Talent reigns supreme. | ||
|
Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On January 15 2009 11:45 Sadist wrote: And we are talking about starcraft, not something with some crazy fast twitch ability or something you need some crazy athletic ability to be good at regardless of how "skilled" you might be at it or not (ala basketball or football, gl doing shit when you are 5'8" and fat playing basketball, you can nail shit from halfcourt but it wouldnt matter because you are short and cant guard the athletes) Do you think everyone have the same potential in other things that dont have physical requirements like dart, bowling, snooker ect ? | ||
|
Frits
11782 Posts
It just takes practice, which requires the right personality, some people aren't really that focussed on mastering things and tend to give up easily and move on to another more successful activity to cope with failure rather than mastering something. And obviously being introverted helps (in the way that they usually have less social contacts, so more time), among other things. But anyone could do it pretty easily if you pushed him. Perseverance is the hard part, the person in question needs to have some kind of intrinsic motivation for reaching his goal, otherwise he'd just give up after you stop pushing him. | ||
|
fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
On January 15 2009 09:37 AttackZerg wrote: No. No. No.No. The average player can never reach current B on iccup sorry. physical cordination, real time thinking, memory, aggression.... sorry I think the reason that after all these years there are more fans of pro gamers and less then 300 or so of them in the world at this game, speaks volumes. There is a such thing as talent. I don't like it because it means somethings no matter how hard I'll try I can never be the best, but part of growing up is growing to live with that. The average person of this forum couldn't reach be within a year if they started at d infact I think even with a full time playing schedule most of them couldn't do it in 2 or 3. How many of you have been playing broodwar for years and never gotten good. Fact most players don't have the talent to play at a higher level. Multi-tasking is a mental feat and some people just can't do it. There are players who have a perfect rythmic comprehension of broodwar micro, I don't, I sure as fuck can kill a few marines, but no matter how long I practiced I wouldn't have the artstry of yellow,luxury,zero or jaedong. I think alot of people need to get real about the fact that limitations hold people back. most people aren't willing to put in the time to get to b. It takes a lot of effort. Don't just assume its all talent because it makes you feel warm inside I agree 100% with frits' post | ||
|
TheFlashyOne
Canada450 Posts
| ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
only a bad player could believe that dude. Seriously not everybody can play chess at all. After 6 years of study and tournament play, I know first hand that is not the case. | ||
|
Sadist
United States7218 Posts
On January 15 2009 11:57 Oystein wrote: Do you think everyone have the same potential in other things that dont have physical requirements like dart, bowling, snooker ect ? Pool Bowling and darts have a lot to do with the persons personal makeup. I obviously think there are people who have better hand eye coordination than other people, that definately helps in things like darts bowling and snooker, but there are tons of people with great hand eye coordination that dont succeed at the highest levels in things like that because of mental makeup. In games like that theres little difference between the top player and the 100th player except for the mental side of the game. Its just like golf. | ||
|
Frits
11782 Posts
On January 15 2009 12:00 TheFlashyOne wrote: Chess doesn't require any athletic abilities. Tommorow, imma start playing 15 hours a day and i'll be able to pnw Kasparov , Anand and Kramnik in a few years and become a Chess millionaire. If you're over 12 it's probably already too late, developing good chunking abilities at chess takes a lot of practice at a young age. | ||
|
Frits
11782 Posts
On January 15 2009 12:01 AttackZerg wrote: frits hahah about your chess comment only a bad player could believe that dude. Seriously not everybody can play chess at all. After 6 years of study and tournament play, I know first hand that is not the case. Your argument is based on your pride and anecdotal evidence, mine is based on famous psychological research. Being a bad player has nothing to do with it. And it's not like you know how much time each kid invests in chess, how much they care about winning, how much they obsess over it, your first hand experience is meaningless. And your examples of multi tasking and stuff like that required in sc? Any kid could learn it, I guarantee it. | ||
|
Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On January 15 2009 12:05 Frits wrote: If you're over 12 it's probably already too late, developing good chunking abilities at chess takes a lot of practice at a young age. So what was it when Magnus Karlsen became GM at age 13? Just pure work and mental strength and no talent and any 13 year old could do that? | ||
|
Frits
11782 Posts
On January 15 2009 12:08 Oystein wrote: So what was it when Magnus Karlsen became GM at age 13? Just pure work and mental strength and no talent and any 13 year old could do that? You're using 1 exceptional example to try and disprove a theory that goes for 99% of the population. I never said there is no such thing as talent. Why think in absolutes? Haven't you ever heard of a normal distribution? | ||
|
Sadist
United States7218 Posts
At the highest levels of ANYTHING talent is always going to be a huge factor if not the biggest factor. But practice and working hard at things that you arent really dealt a bad hand in (such as the whole 5'8" basketball thing) can get you pretty damn far. Farther than someone who might have more talent than you but doesnt put forth enough effort. | ||
|
Oystein
Norway1602 Posts
On January 15 2009 12:14 Frits wrote: You're using 1 exceptional example to try and disprove a theory that goes for 99% of the population. I never said there is no such thing as talent. Why think in absolutes? Haven't you ever heard of a normal distribution? I dont think in absolutes, i said earlier in this thread I believe most people have the ability to get far with the right training, dedication ect, iv only been pointing out all the time that there IS talent to things even if it only shows at the highest skill levels of whatever you do. If 2 people do the exact same training regime ect live identical lives in their own separate bodies do you think they would be equally skilled after certain amount of times in things, be it BW, Chess or playing a guitar? Because some people learn faster and have a higher skill ceiling than others, dont you consider them more talented? | ||
|
Mikilatov
United States3897 Posts
On January 15 2009 12:23 Oystein wrote: I dont think in absolutes, i said earlier in this thread I believe most people have the ability to get far with the right training, dedication ect, iv only been pointing out all the time that there IS talent to things even if it only shows at the highest skill levels of whatever you do. If 2 people do the exact same training regime ect live identical lives in their own separate bodies do you think they would be equally skilled after certain amount of times in things, be it BW, Chess or playing a guitar? Because some people learn faster and have a higher skill ceiling than others, dont you consider them more talented? What you're failing to understand is that everyone who is saying it -is- possible to reach around a "B" level isn't denying the existence of talent. They're simply stating that given the time and commitment, anyone can become quite a high-level player. They may not be able to reach it as quickly as others, but as long as they can PHYSICALLY do it, it is indeed possible for them to become as good as their body will let them physically. These restraints will grow as they play, but at some point, a person just simply can't move any faster, or more accurately, due to age/health/bones, etc. | ||
|
ilovehnk
475 Posts
| ||
|
fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
| ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On January 15 2009 12:07 Frits wrote: Your argument is based on your pride and anecdotal evidence, mine is based on famous psychological research. Being a bad player has nothing to do with it. And it's not like you know how much time each kid invests in chess, how much they care about winning, how much they obsess over it, your first hand experience is meaningless. And your examples of multi tasking and stuff like that required in sc? Any kid could learn it, I guarantee it. Actually I just didn't feel like explaining how poor you argument is frits. Mine is based upon 5 years as a chess teacher at a junior college , high school , jr high school and private lessons. Along with being partnered with a USCF master Arthur Braden whom I helped prepare lesson plans and outlines for over 200 chess players. Unlike you I've actually worked first hand in the field along with taking classes in childhood development. Also unlike you I know how to play broodwar and have taught many people how to play broodwar. Quote whatever bullshit studies you like (that you obviously can't refrence without dipping into the google world) and try and prove yourself right. There are many different ceiling caps in chess. For instance 6 hours a day is the general regiment for a 1500 play (uscf rating) to reach 1900 within a year an half , 1900 is the expert ranking. This is a rather attainable goal for most gifted players. If you do any browsing , which I'm sure you haven't since you always come across like you know what your talking about and never actually do, you will see that there are many many thousands of players with hundreds or thousands of games over a short span of years or a long span that can never break even 1200-1300-1400-1500 points, while the average "club" player is around 1600 which is still rather poor with a decent opening rep, decent tactics and normally terrible strategic understand and little or no end game understanding. Now the sacramento chess club which I was an active player for about 4 years during which time I was under the wing of another master from yugoslav, also named arthur, and in numerous conversations with him and an actuall chess confrence in San Fransico with Jermey Silman concluded that average chess masters pupils had inert ceilings of ability, which they could never surpass. I studied for 7 years mostly indepently aside from any teaching or asst. teaching that I have done. On this subject I know what I'm talking about and you do not. Also on the subject of broodwar your just another guy who can't do something blindingly believing others could or they could with effort. Sorry alot of people are not very smart and hard work can not make up for inert disablities, dullness, lack of cordination, lack of mental speed, stamina, will power, creativty and worst of all lethergy(could be sp, but I'm pretty sure not) Sadist I was going from memory not from seeing you this season  . Gj, if you play after 9pm PST you are a fucking dope player.Oystein, these people are giving me a headache, I give up on them =(. | ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On January 15 2009 12:00 fusionsdf wrote: [ Don't just assume its all talent because it makes you feel warm inside I agree 100% with frits' post I'm not a B player. (edited out a rude phrase to a forum vet) | ||
|
Sadist
United States7218 Posts
interesting thoughts on chess. My thing on something being mental has always been that theres a reason that a great player thought what they thought at a specific time, so I dont see why that information cant be passed on to another person for them to understand it. Obviously they dont have the same experiences as a great player but say a great player to a good player, you think it would help out the good player quite a bit and they could learn things from it and apply it to their own game. Maybe its me being naive, but i feel its the same way with starcraft, once you get past the mechanics. | ||
|
Savio
United States1850 Posts
Just like even if everyone spent as much time at chess as Kasparov, Karpov, Kramnic, and Anand, very few people could actually reach that level. I could NEVER swim as fast as Michael Phelps. All these people are special in what they do. They put in extraordinary effort but they also started with extraordinary potential. | ||
|
fusionsdf
Canada15390 Posts
how could I make that mistake? You bring up your iccup rank in every fucking post | ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On January 15 2009 13:50 Sadist wrote: theres no way I was B+ playing with all koreans on PST, I played whoever though, the god damn korean zergs always beat my ass though. =[ interesting thoughts on chess. My thing on something being mental has always been that theres a reason that a great player thought what they thought at a specific time, so I dont see why that information cant be passed on to another person for them to understand it. Obviously they dont have the same experiences as a great player but say a great player to a good player, you think it would help out the good player quite a bit and they could learn things from it and apply it to their own game. Maybe its me being naive, but i feel its the same way with starcraft, once you get past the mechanics. When I've played you I never lost because your mechanics were better then mine. I always lost because you played smarter/better. Does it doesn't shock me that somebody who played me before when I played alot plays at a higher level then I do now. I think smart players, not smart people, have potential to improve, and that its simpily mechanics that negate their results. Some people lack the ability to consistently make good decisions in game. Watch 90% of the reps in the strategy section. Most of them literally are so handicapped by the basic functions of starcraft that they can't ever enter into the meta game and meta-midgame (which I believe exists now). | ||
|
AttackZerg
United States7454 Posts
On January 15 2009 14:21 fusionsdf wrote: how could I make that mistake? You bring up your iccup rank in every fucking post I have never once ever said I was B ever once. Infact 3 months ago I was stocked to beat a korean b- terran, and 1 1/2 months ago I was happy to hit b- in 120 (I think) games. Thank you come again! | ||
|
jgad
Canada899 Posts
More accurately, "anyone" could be a B, but not "everyone", for if lots of people became a 'B' (by today's measure), then the bar tomorrow just raises higher and a new class of C's and D's emerge. | ||
| ||
StarCraft 2 StarCraft: Brood War Dota 2 League of Legends Other Games |
|
CranKy Ducklings
RSL Revival
ByuN vs Cham
herO vs Reynor
FEL
RSL Revival
Clem vs Classic
SHIN vs Cure
FEL
BSL: ProLeague
Dewalt vs Bonyth
Replay Cast
Sparkling Tuna Cup
The PondCast
Replay Cast
[ Show More ] |
|
|
EPT
