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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Cheated from his 2nd MSL title
Throughout 2008 its difficult to argue against the fact that Jaedong has been the most consistent performer all year. And of course, thats for a very good reason - he's fucking good. So when Jaedong loses a final to a player only weeks prior was thought a scrub 0-3, you know theres something up. Furthermore, when arguably the best player in the world loses to a no-name MBC Hero gamer in the OSL prelims, once again you have to wonder what is going on here? With one of the most anticipated finals in a long time being played tonight - which will be the deciding factor; Maps or Skill?
Quite bluntly, the map pool this season has royally sucked for Zerg - especially against Terran. As the sole Zerg powerhouse for a long time now, Jaedong has had to deal with these imbalances with absolute precision control and insane macro. There is, however, always a breaking point so when you get a final with every single map favoring Terran heavily you know that you're going to have to work twice as hard as your opponent to win. ForGG didn't win the MSL, the maps did.
Set 1: Colosseum
This map is a rediculous 5-2 in TvZ with very good ZvT players (like Kwanro and Luxury) have lost games to Terrans. Jaedong accounts for one of the wins here, which he used an unorthodox strategy for, and the other was Savior bashing fantasy around. This map is quite clearly imbalanced against Zerg.
Set 2: Othello
Many people consider this map the most balanced map within the map pool, but hey, 52 TvTs and a TvZ record of 15-9 speaks for itself. At the highest level this map is a rhelm where Terran dominates, and will dominate most Zergs. Realistically, against a competent opponent like ForGG, there was nothing Jaedong could realistically do to win this set.
Set 3: Tiamat
This map is just a death sentence for any Zerg. The map was 4-0 in TvZ which is starting to verge on Arcadia territory. Once again, there was nothing that Jaedong could realistically do to stop ForGG here either. This map is just so bad for Zergs.
But wait, given a shitty map pool is suppose to be able to overcome it and win regardless a la savior in Shinhan S3 OSL. But this case just made things x10 harder for Jaedong. In the quarter finals Jaedong had to train extensively to beat Hwasin on the exact same map pool. He ended up going 3-1 (dropping the game on tiamat) but he must have practiced extensively with ForGG to train for the series and thus revealed all of his stylistic nuances to his future finals opponent. Indeed Jaedong in the quarters looked to playing a more desperate style than he was accustomed to, probably due to the terrible map pool. With ForGG prepared for everything that Jaedong could throw at him and the maps strongly in his favor - realistically Jaedong was trapped in a 0-3 ultimatum that he could not avoid.
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/Jaedong/3.png) Jaedong is not impressed
Okay so Jaedong loses one big final thanks to crappy maps, no big deal he'll bounce back right! Not quite true. After being cheesed out of the OSL by Casy and Backho, Jaedong was reduced to the offline preliminaries and forced to requalify. Sadly, the maps once again had more influence on the outcome than anyone wanted. Yes han played well, but the imbalance on each of the maps amplified his skill and created an impossible task for Jaedong to overcome.
Set 1: Troy
Troy, as we all know, is a Protoss paradise. The only Zergs capable of mustering wins have been ones who have used cheesy (but ballsy) strategies to avoid the Protoss lategame, and sometimes even that isn't enough. The stats of 3-5 in favor of Protoss clearly show that this map is heavily P>Z. Hence against the solid play of han, Jaedong was helpless.
Set 2: Athena
Athena was Jaedong's redemption card, as the map is 2-0 in favor of Zerg over Protoss. He wated no time in schooling han and tieing up the scored 1-1. But even though Han's play was solid, on a map like Athena against a Zerg the calibre of Jaedong he had no chance at all - and that was proved very nicely by Jaedong.
Set 3: Blue Storm
Blue Storm's statistics are highly misleading. Since the switch over to Blue Storm 1.2 the map has had 6-14 stats in favor of Protoss. Thats a measly 30% winrate for Zergs. And well, as expected, the solid play of han took Jaedong to school on the map that defined his ZvP, all because of the imbalance on the map. And hey! as a result, Jaedong didn't make the OSL (along with numerous others like savior)
If it's not clear to you right now that the map pool is [i]heavily not-favoring Zergs then I don't know what else will convince you. The question simply has to be, why are these map pools so utterly terrible that even Jaedong, master of the swarm, can't beat a B team rookie on the maps from the pool?
With the current map trends this will never happen again
Perhaps we can trace this to OGN rather than MBC. If you take a look at all the winners of the OSL from Shinhan 3 onwards; 4/5 of the winners have been of Zerg origin. Even July mustered a win over only Protoss and Zerg opponents with the map pool (the stats for ZvP are actually slightly Zerg favored). But as Zerg are traditionally weak in the OSL and Protoss should be winning the OSL in the fall to perpetuate the legend of the fall, map pools are adjusted to achieve the desired outcome. Sadly, Jaedong has ruined OGN's plot by showing that timing rushes can overcome any imbalance - this was later reiterated by July.
EVER 07 was suppose to be Bisu's victory, but he got sick and lost to Stork. Even so, OGN would not be unhappy with Stork winning the OSL - after all atleast he was a protoss. With a map pool featuring Persona, Fantasy II and Katrina the map balance suggested that Stork should waltz home with the win. However, the imbalance was not great enough to stop Jaedong - and with an e han timing rush he destroyed Stork's morale on his "sure win" map (katrina) and proceeded to gut him on Blue Storm/Fantasy. Seeing that their plot had failed, an even less Zerg friendly map pool was implemented by adding Troy to the mix. Sure enough, Jaedong ran into a Terran and with a little map imbalance was able to take the win and stop the reign of Zerg's over the OSL.
Jaedong's glory would come in the form of the MSL where he would win over Kal on a mostly neutral map pool (bluestorm 1.1, zodiac being zerg favored, and loki and katrina being Protoss favored). Kal indeed pushed Jaedon to his limit, but ultimately with a good map pool and the greater talent Jaedong came home with the win. MSL promptly adjusted their map pool the following season to make their pool even less Zerg friendly - and Jaedong getting 0-3'd was the result.
I dont know why Korean's don't want Zerg's winning tournaments, but the map balance the past season completely devastated both leagues Zerg population.
But there is another reason why Zerg's are getting a raw deal. Now that map makers know how to balance PvZ, and knowing very well that Protoss are the whiniest race on earth, they have chosen to prioritize PvZ balance over ZvT balance. This is different to the traditional Korean value of balancing Tvp/Tvz first then worrying about PvZ later. As a result, we've had a string of decent PvZ maps but absolutely terrible ZvT maps. As a large number of Terrans always qualify, season after season the number of Zerg's decrease.
Jaedong is probably the most talented starcraft player today, but his dominance is being largely nulled by the influx of anti-zerg maps. Not only has this devastated the number of Zergs qualifying for leagues - but it has also meant that Jaedong struggles to advance even though he is the best Zerg in the world. The map pools for the new seasons MUST be more Zerg oriented or at least try to bring some balanced maps to the table (KeSPA im looking at you) because losing TvZ as a viable matchup is a travesty to Starcraft as it is one of the most beautiful matchups in the game.
Who cares is Jaedong dominates ridiculously because the map pool is balanced? Whats more important is saving the Zerg race, and the art of ZvT, from near extinction. Hopefully KeSPA get the message before it's too late and Jaedong is a lone trooper.
  
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
Oh the savage blows my blog takes from discussion controversial topics!!
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Anyone who's taken any form of statistics can tell you that a ratio with such a small sample size (i.e. TvZ 5-2) isn't gonna be entirely accurate. That's the thing about alleged map imbalances; it's illogical to think one race is superior to another on a given map when <10 games have been played on it. Even Othello's 15-9. Zergs have pulled off nine, complete and solid wins on it. Sure, Terran players have won more, but that doesn't justify people automatically passing off this statistic as a "map imbalance" rather than plain-and-simple superior play from terran players.
"The stats of 3-5 in favor of Protoss clearly show that this map is heavily P>Z."
This is a small step away from saying a map is protoss dominant because it has a 4-5 ZvP win ratio. Besides, the game of SC is always evolving. Say you stick Collosseum into the Shinhan 2006 map pool. Things would be different, for sure.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that people should realize that the controlled variables in Starcraft (player's skill) means a whole lot more than the uncontrolled (maps). Or, if they truly believe in a map imbalance, should give examples (as in specific moments of the game) where the imbalance was really evident instead of pointing to a set of numbers all the time.
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ahaha, yeh I disagree. I'm sure the maps played a part, but Jaedong was just playing worse recently, and played horribly against FORGG. Didn't look like himself at all. I don't think there is some kind of conspiracy to destroy Zerg, and I don't blame Jaedongs inability to beat Han on map imbalance, I blame it on Jaedongs faltering game sense.
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maps have always been bad for zerg, good for terran. if you go back to the earliest starleagues and look at what yellow had to play against boxer on, you wouldn't have made this thread. even savior's osl win came on awful zvt maps
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 10 2008 01:38 tracer wrote:
Anyone who's taken any form of statistics can tell you that a ratio with such a small sample size (i.e. TvZ 5-2) isn't gonna be entirely accurate. That's the thing about alleged map imbalances; it's illogical to think one race is superior to another on a given map when <10 games have been played on it. Even Othello's 15-9. Zergs have pulled off nine, complete and solid wins on it. Sure, Terran players have won more, but that doesn't justify people automatically passing off this statistic as a "map imbalance" rather than plain-and-simple superior play from terran players.
"The stats of 3-5 in favor of Protoss clearly show that this map is heavily P>Z."
This is a small step away from saying a map is protoss dominant because it has a 4-5 ZvP win ratio. Besides, the game of SC is always evolving. Say you stick Collosseum into the Shinhan 2006 map pool. Things would be different, for sure.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that people should realize that the controlled variables in Starcraft (player's skill) means a whole lot more than the uncontrolled (maps). Or, if they truly believe in a map imbalance, should give examples (as in specific moments of the game) where the imbalance was really evident instead of pointing to a set of numbers all the time. Okay 3-5 is very small, but we all know from experience (TSL, Offline Prelims etc) that troy is a shitastic ZvP map
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It coulda easily easily been 4-4 if Best didnt best Lux. Your claim for troy is weak.
I do agree with the basic sentiment that the maps made it so much harder for JD. But I think ForGG deserves credit on his brackets. Such a lame finals.
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Spenguin
Australia3316 Posts
What can we do Plexa? What can we do?
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Based on my understanding, I think Jaedong overpractised. I have been watching his vods for the past few months and have noticed Jaedong's eyes dont look as bright as the first first time he played Bisu in the GOM TV S4 MSL . His face looks drained by pressure. I guess the over practise and lack of sleep makes his performance decline.
Add to the map imbalance, Jaedong loses more than before.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 10 2008 01:54 SuperJongMan wrote:
It coulda easily easily been 4-4 if Best didnt best Lux. Your claim for troy is weak.
I do agree with the basic sentiment that the maps made it so much harder for JD. But I think ForGG deserves credit on his brackets. Such a lame finals. Do you want me to unpack every ZvP on troy?+ Show Spoiler +Yarnc > Backho -> i dont even recall this game haha  but its backho so its probably terrible Lux > Bisu -> 5 pool brilliance, one time wonder build July > Best -> Drone drill, cheese at its finest
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I wish a korean would shed light on your question, of why koreans don't want a zerg champion.
I saw someone say something interesting a few days ago, about how being good at TvP and not good at TvZ is looked down upon in Korea. This boggled my mind, being a foreigner, because I really respect players who are good at TvP and don't really care about their TvZ. That's why I'm a huge Brat_OK and Yosh fan. It just feels like TvP is the more challenging matchup.
But apparently in Korea, probably because for a long time the scene had very few dominant protoss players, people respect great TvZ players. Maybe that's changing now, but I feel that it is probably a long ingrained sentiment in Korea.
This may somehow relate to why zergs have consistently received the shaft in map pools the last few starleagues. Maybe koreans just don't like seeing Zerg dominance anymore.
As for myself, I'm happy as long as protoss never win 
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Your sample size is too small. Less than ten matches and you scream "Imbalance!"? That's grasping at straws. ForGG knew what to do. He just walked over Jaedong. And pretty much like Savior after his fall from grace, Jaedong rushed for Hive tech because he didn't know what else to do. Back in his golden days he beat people by early ling pressure and then followed up with some lair tech Muta or Lurker pressure while slowly taking the map.
Against ForGG he only managed to pressure with his Lings in the third game and then followed up completely wasting his Mutas away. Shame really, I thought the games would be longer and more interesting.
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Hmm I agree that the maps don't favour zerg, but you just back it with statistics such as 5-3, and not so much why it became 5-3, which I want to know more about
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 10 2008 02:17 Simplistik wrote:
Your sample size is too small. Less than ten matches and you scream "Imbalance!"? That's grasping at straws. ForGG knew what to do. He just walked over Jaedong. And pretty much like Savior after his fall from grace, Jaedong rushed for Hive tech because he didn't know what else to do. Back in his golden days he beat people by early ling pressure and then followed up with some lair tech Muta or Lurker pressure while slowly taking the map.
Against ForGG he only managed to pressure with his Lings in the third game and then followed up completely wasting his Mutas away. Shame really, I thought the games would be longer and more interesting. On August 10 2008 02:20 TonyL2 wrote:
Hmm I agree that the maps don't favour zerg, but you just back it with statistics such as 5-3, and not so much why it became 5-3, which I want to know more about Playstyle on maps is typically indicative of how players see the map. More all-in/cheesy strategies than your average map generally indicates that the map is imbalanced. In starcraft you are always going to get a small sample size - and the rest of it must be inferred from playstyle. If you watch Jaedong vs Hwasin you can clearly see he has somewhat of an agitated style - which isn't typically of Jaedong's normal play. The reason for this non-standard play from Jaedong can be traced back to confidence on the maps; in training obviously he discovered that standard doesn't cut it and he needs to play unsound builds to win. This does show imbalance and while the sample size is small, the trend confirms the inference.
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Plexa,
A lot of free time right now?
You're on a roll with all these articles man. You should do an article on the 2v2 issue next! ^^
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I read it all plus the comments and I even agreed with the last Plexa article yet I can't for the love of my life agree with this article. Sorry but no zerg is 'helpless' even if the map is slightly imbalanced. And really, Troy isn't that bad for zerg. Not Blue Storm or Othello either.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On August 10 2008 02:32 Shauni wrote:
I read it all plus the comments and I even agreed with the last Plexa article yet I can't for the love of my life agree with this article. Sorry but no zerg is 'helpless' even if the map is slightly imbalanced. And really, Troy isn't that bad for zerg. Not Blue Storm or Othello either. You do realize that by saying that the maps are not imbalanced (especially bluestorm) that you are acknowledging that P>Z and T>Z on a fundamental level right? Else how do you explain the 30% winrate vs Protoss on BS?
And sure "helpless" was an hyperbole, but at an inherent disadvantage is the truth
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United States1655 Posts
I agree that the maps played a role in the fall of Zergs recently. I mean for a map like Tiamat with an extremely hard to defend third gas, it just screams complete and utter Terran domination.
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During all these years, most maps had stats which showed T>Z. Even during Savior's long period of dominance.
It's a given thing that Zergs always have to put up a better fight than their Terran enemy. If they're just even they'll lose. ZvT is hard (on pro level), there's nothing that can be done about it. M&M are too cost effective, and whether or not you can manage to take out enough vessels depends more on how bad the Terran microes them than how well you micro your scourges.
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There haven't been enough games on any of these maps for racial stats to be statistically significant yet. Of course there are going to be 203429 billion TvT games when everyone plays terran
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EPT![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Jaedong/mslfinal.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Jaedong/172_Colosseum_thumbnail.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Jaedong/178_Othello_thumbnail.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Jaedong/181_Tiamat_thumbnail.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Jaedong/168_Troy_thumbnail.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Jaedong/182_Athena_thumbnail.jpg)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Jaedong/159_Blue_Storm_thumbnail.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Plexa/Jaedong/4.png)
![[image loading]](/staff/Plexa/Jaedong/1212314919_1.jpg)
