• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 12:32
CEST 18:32
KST 01:32
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall9HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18Classic wins Code S Season 2 (2025)16Code S RO4 & Finals Preview: herO, Rogue, Classic, GuMiho0TL Team Map Contest #5: Presented by Monster Energy6
Community News
Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles2[BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China8Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL66Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form?14FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event22
StarCraft 2
General
The SCII GOAT: A statistical Evaluation The GOAT ranking of GOAT rankings Weekly Cups (June 23-29): Reynor in world title form? Weekly Cups (June 30 - July 6): Classic Doubles Program: SC2 / XSplit / OBS Scene Switcher
Tourneys
RSL: Revival, a new crowdfunded tournament series FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $8000 live event Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament WardiTV Mondays Korean Starcraft League Week 77
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response Simple Questions Simple Answers
Custom Maps
[UMS] Zillion Zerglings
External Content
Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava Mutation # 480 Moths to the Flame Mutation # 479 Worn Out Welcome Mutation # 478 Instant Karma
Brood War
General
Flash Announces Hiatus From ASL SC uni coach streams logging into betting site BW General Discussion BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ ASL20 Preliminary Maps
Tourneys
[BSL20] Grand Finals - Sunday 20:00 CET CSL Xiamen International Invitational [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China The Casual Games of the Week Thread
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers I am doing this better than progamers do.
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Path of Exile What do you want from future RTS games? Beyond All Reason
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Summer Games Done Quick 2024! Summer Games Done Quick 2025!
Fan Clubs
SKT1 Classic Fan Club! Maru Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [Manga] One Piece [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NHL Playoffs 2024
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Culture Clash in Video Games…
TrAiDoS
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
Blog #2
tankgirl
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Trip to the Zoo
micronesia
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 637 users

Jaedong Cheated by maps? - Page 2

Blogs > Plexa
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 Next All
Polemarch
Profile Joined August 2005
Canada1564 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-09 18:02:32
August 09 2008 17:59 GMT
#21
It may be true that T>Z fundamentally at the highest levels. The reason is simply that terran benefit more from micro/multitasking than zerg do. So while zvt may have been balanced at skill levels from 3 years ago, even if both races increase in skill at the same rate, the advantage goes to terran.

The main example is lurkers vs marines. At noob levels, lurkers > marines. At the pro level however, a group of Casy's or Hwasin's marines will beat a few lurkers without much trouble. This is especially true in small-scale battles, which modern terrans can force with their sick multi-tasking. Ling micro can only do so much for support.

(Sure, zerg had their time in the sun with muta stack micro, but this has largely been nullified by terrans now. Hold lurker is a good trick, but there's only a small window where it can be effective, and even so terran reaction time can abate this.)

edit: One way to test this hypothesis would be to have pros play on oldschool maps and see if the balance has tilted in terran's favour. The closest thing we'll get for now is Namja Iyagi vs Return of the King. Namja Iyagi used to be heavily zerg favoured.
I BELIEVE IN CAPITAL LETTER PUNISHMENT!!!!!
DoctorHelvetica
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
United States15034 Posts
August 09 2008 18:04 GMT
#22
There was a big map disadvantage, but anyone who says (Z)Jaedong played his best those games against (T)forGG_V_ is lying.

(Z)Jaedong played tired, and (T)forGG_V_ played well. Maybe if the maps were balanced it would have been 3-2, or 3-1, but (T)forGG_V_ would have won still.
RIP Aaliyah
Little-Chimp
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada948 Posts
August 09 2008 18:06 GMT
#23
I'm not sure if I agree with the whole post, but some of it definitely applies. Tiamat is a joke ZvT map, at least give Jaedong SOME chance to come back from 2-0 :/
HeavOnEarth
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
United States7087 Posts
August 09 2008 18:08 GMT
#24
plexa !!! thanks for the article
but.. poor jaedong .. ]:
"come korea next time... FXO house... 10 korean, 10 korean"
Shauni
Profile Blog Joined July 2004
4077 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-09 18:19:25
August 09 2008 18:15 GMT
#25
On August 10 2008 02:35 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2008 02:32 Shauni wrote:
I read it all plus the comments and I even agreed with the last Plexa article yet I can't for the love of my life agree with this article. Sorry but no zerg is 'helpless' even if the map is slightly imbalanced. And really, Troy isn't that bad for zerg. Not Blue Storm or Othello either.
You do realize that by saying that the maps are not imbalanced (especially bluestorm) that you are acknowledging that P>Z and T>Z on a fundamental level right? Else how do you explain the 30% winrate vs Protoss on BS?

And sure "helpless" was an hyperbole, but at an inherent disadvantage is the truth



You need access to practise quarters results to be sure about the imbalance of those maps because a couple of TV games can't possibly count as real statistics. And analyzing how much cheese that erupts from playing on certain maps is just ridiculous. I said - and agree to the point - that those maps are slightly favored against zerg, more or less but not to the state that Jaedong is 'helpless'. And I don't think you can talk about maps as 'imbalanced' as a whole, because in a map like Blue Storm, zerg has advantage early game against a protoss but loses that advantage as the map is split. It's the same on all non mirrored matchups on that map. Is TvP imbalanced on Blue Storm because it forces people to go carriers? Was Monty Hall imbalanced TvZ before the silver strat became popular? Is Tiamat imbalanced because four terrans won in a row against zerg? Imbalance is such a subjective term and it's impossible to analyze how much each player suffer from it.
I was not commenting because I want to argue that there is no imbalance in those maps. I wanted to comment about it because you made it sound like it was the end of Jaedong. As many other people said in this thread, those maps are nowhere near as imbalanced as many mappools in the past has been.
I'm taking whatever coverage I can get, because frankly, I'm busy working on this million dollar deal at my job. Early retirement is a good thing brotha man. - MessengerASL
Ouga
Profile Joined March 2008
Finland645 Posts
August 09 2008 18:21 GMT
#26
I agree with many of the issues here. Some of the maps are clearly T/P favoring while I wouldn't say any maps are favoring Z. I don't think troy/athena/BS is really terrible maps for zvp, but indeed MSL final maps were pretty dumb. It looked awfully hard to beat Hwasin in them, and after that all the tricks in his sleeve were kinda showed for ForGG. After all it's really zerg who has to do tricks to beat top terrans while they just have to play very solid to do fine. Overall zergs have been doing very bad against terrans lately, and I don't think that means hwasin/forgg etc. have suddenly raised to level of top zergs like JD.

It's an overstatement though to say JD was destined to go 0-3. It did look like he had to do desperate stuff to survive though. He was doing fine in Colosseum so that game was definately possible for him to win. I agree that Tiamat looks like pretty bad map for zvt, and in othello T also has slight advantage.

Clearly when talking about map imbalance you can't really use such small samples as arguments as you did. I'd say 30% in less than 15 game sample doesn't prove anything, and as said 9-15 still isn't proof but when this happens in every map granted: slight overall imbalance shows when facing against players who play close to perfect solid games á la forgg/hwasin. I wouldn't notice the imbalance in lower levels since opponents @ iccup C-/C don't really use maps into their favor enough, but players at individual league finals definately do.
Narrator
Profile Blog Joined June 2004
United States868 Posts
August 09 2008 18:22 GMT
#27
Even though I totally hate Jaedong, it seems this is the correct reason as to why Jaedong has been losing recently. Great writeup, as usual.

Plexa is on a blogging spree. O_O

<3
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
August 09 2008 18:34 GMT
#28
Plexa as much as I love your articles I cannot agree with this one. Did you even watch Jaedong vs han on Blue Storm? JD had a comfortable lead all along, then fucking blew it with horrible attack timing and micro. I wouldn't attribute that to the map...he got outplayed. 3-5 on Troy is HEAVILY Protoss favored? Whaaaaat.

Jaedong failed to adapt and went with typical fast hive build every game vs ForGG. Got trashed the same way every game.
raga4ka
Profile Joined February 2008
Bulgaria5679 Posts
August 09 2008 18:34 GMT
#29
Jaedong is a monster on Blue Storm he lost ot Han , maybe because he got overconfidant and over extended himself after their first encounter don't know normaly he has an endless suply of lings after his lurker wall on his side of the map .
d_so
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)3262 Posts
August 09 2008 18:38 GMT
#30
can you explain why the maps are imbalanced besides the numbers?
manner
kpcrew
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
Korea (South)1071 Posts
August 09 2008 18:39 GMT
#31
jaedong had the same advantage forgg did when they played, he was able to see forgg's strategies in advance when they practiced. its not like forgg was the only one paying attention when theu practiced
you cant rely on statistics because there are way more good terran and protoss players than there are zerg
terran: nada hwasin flash midas iris lomo leta forgg sea.really sea fbh, the list goes on and on
protoss: best, much, stork(maybe not anymore), bisu, jangbi, kal
zerg: jaedong luxury julyzerg

there are simply a lack of good zerg players and using simple matchup statistics will not work, especially when there are relatively few games being played on maps

and kwanro isnt exactly "good" anymore



but i feel that jaedong was cheated out of his msl victory as well. forgg was totally undeserving imo, he lucked past flash who decided that a greedy and stupid bo would work 3 times in a row, even though the previous games totally proved him wrong

but isnt it still a victory for lecaf? :D



but you are right, jaedong losing to han is pretty bs t.t
Clan Lzuruha
OneOther
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States10774 Posts
Last Edited: 2008-08-09 18:40:15
August 09 2008 18:39 GMT
#32
Btw since when was Blue Storm considered a bad map for Zerg? Zerg has a HUGE lead over Terran on that map, and ZvP is balanced.

Troy, Athena, Blue Storm. Zerg friendly. Jaedong blew it.
Sigrun
Profile Blog Joined February 2007
United States1654 Posts
August 09 2008 18:44 GMT
#33
On August 10 2008 03:34 OneOther wrote:
Jaedong failed to adapt and went with typical fast hive build every game vs ForGG. Got trashed the same way every game.


It's not so much that Jaedong failed to adapt, but he was forced to go fast Hive in games 2 and 3. His Mutalisk harass did next to zero damage to ForGG's economy, so Jaedong had to tech quickly to Defiler to have even a remote chance of fighting off ForGG's ball.
Graphics
anderoo
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada1876 Posts
August 09 2008 18:45 GMT
#34
imo the maps are slightly imbalanced, but not to the point where you can write JD off. I'd bet that Flash takes the opening Blue Storm game, just because he seems really strong on that map every game I watch. I'm just praying that JD 3-1's him becaues a Blue Storm final would be shitty for him imo.

Offtopic: Does anyone know what time the stream starts in Eastern Standard Time?
Too_MuchZerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Finland2818 Posts
August 09 2008 18:48 GMT
#35
On August 10 2008 03:15 Shauni wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2008 02:35 Plexa wrote:
On August 10 2008 02:32 Shauni wrote:
I read it all plus the comments and I even agreed with the last Plexa article yet I can't for the love of my life agree with this article. Sorry but no zerg is 'helpless' even if the map is slightly imbalanced. And really, Troy isn't that bad for zerg. Not Blue Storm or Othello either.
You do realize that by saying that the maps are not imbalanced (especially bluestorm) that you are acknowledging that P>Z and T>Z on a fundamental level right? Else how do you explain the 30% winrate vs Protoss on BS?

And sure "helpless" was an hyperbole, but at an inherent disadvantage is the truth



You need access to practise quarters results to be sure about the imbalance of those maps because a couple of TV games can't possibly count as real statistics. And analyzing how much cheese that erupts from playing on certain maps is just ridiculous. I said - and agree to the point - that those maps are slightly favored against zerg, more or less but not to the state that Jaedong is 'helpless'. And I don't think you can talk about maps as 'imbalanced' as a whole, because in a map like Blue Storm, zerg has advantage early game against a protoss but loses that advantage as the map is split. It's the same on all non mirrored matchups on that map. Is TvP imbalanced on Blue Storm because it forces people to go carriers? Was Monty Hall imbalanced TvZ before the silver strat became popular? Is Tiamat imbalanced because four terrans won in a row against zerg? Imbalance is such a subjective term and it's impossible to analyze how much each player suffer from it.
I was not commenting because I want to argue that there is no imbalance in those maps. I wanted to comment about it because you made it sound like it was the end of Jaedong. As many other people said in this thread, those maps are nowhere near as imbalanced as many mappools in the past has been.


Monty Hall has mixed feelings. Both maps (normal and SE) are around same %winrate for terranvszerg, but main thing is how mirrors been going on. As we can see Z has bad winratio vs Protoss so game lately switched to PvT and/or PvP and finally TvT festival. Something must be wrong with map if zergs don't play that map anymore.

Little different with Colosseum, even if map is good for ZvP but the risk facing terran is high and its very hard map for zerg to win. So map has either PvP / TvT or PvT.
SuperJongMan
Profile Blog Joined March 2003
Jamaica11586 Posts
August 09 2008 18:50 GMT
#36
On August 10 2008 02:00 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On August 10 2008 01:54 SuperJongMan wrote:
It coulda easily easily been 4-4 if Best didnt best Lux. Your claim for troy is weak.

I do agree with the basic sentiment that the maps made it so much harder for JD. But I think ForGG deserves credit on his brackets. Such a lame finals.
Do you want me to unpack every ZvP on troy?+ Show Spoiler +
Yarnc > Backho -> i dont even recall this game haha but its backho so its probably terrible
Lux > Bisu -> 5 pool brilliance, one time wonder build
July > Best -> Drone drill, cheese at its finest
Troy is an imbalanced map, thats why it was removed from the TSL. I can't beleive i have to argue this point ;;



So really, you have no games to prove shit about troy.
...
Drone drill, 5 pool, and a game you don't remember, and a sneak attack from Best.
Have you even seen a late game on the highest level? If not, can you play one yourself?
If not, how can you accurately commentate?
If you have nothing right to say about troy, just don't say anything.
POWER OVERWHELMING ! ! ! KRUU~ KRUU~
Too_MuchZerg
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
Finland2818 Posts
August 09 2008 18:51 GMT
#37
On August 10 2008 03:39 OneOther wrote:
Btw since when was Blue Storm considered a bad map for Zerg? Zerg has a HUGE lead over Terran on that map, and ZvP is balanced.

Troy, Athena, Blue Storm. Zerg friendly. Jaedong blew it.


Those wins are from pre 1.2/1.1 time after that map has been altered and zerg harass is little bit weaker.

Bad thing is that TLPD mixed all versions together, so nowdays Z has low winratios. See it from proleague thread.
Piy
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Scotland3152 Posts
August 09 2008 19:07 GMT
#38
I think the blame for Jaedongs poor results lately have been more his fault that anyone elses. Yes the pool does favour Terran, and yes Jaedong in the past has overcome map imba for titles, but he just doesn't have his perfection play anymore. If you watch the games on Athena and Tiamat you'll see that Forgg executes perfect timing pushes that would have been applicable on most other maps. Jaedong just dealt with them poorly.

Obviously this isn't just to criticise Jaedong, the skill of his opponents has also been a huge factor. People clearly don't want to see it, but Han played good and Forgg played incredibly. Jaedong has been playing good lately too, but thats all his play has been.

My thoughts.
My. Copy. Is. Here.
Atrioc
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States1865 Posts
August 09 2008 19:36 GMT
#39
Man this is a great article.
Jaedong has had such a fucking hard career thus far, all his leagues have been packed full of anti-zerg maps that he has, quite amazingly, overcome. But the MSL finals against fOrGG were just.... stupidly imbalanced, and i'm a little dumbfounded by the people trying to argue that they arent.

There was even a translated interview with Jaedong BEFORE the finals over on GG.net, where he said that he predicted it would be an easy win for fOrGG because of the many days where he simply could not win on the maps during practice. (Not to mention the translated interview with fOrGG where he said whenever teammates play each other, it usually favors the Terran so he was confident about that). Jaedong was faced not with just a difficult final (ala sAviOr vs NaDa Shinhan 3), he was faced with an impossible final.

Writerman what
Dazed.
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Canada3301 Posts
August 09 2008 20:01 GMT
#40
I dont think bluestorm has even changed much in pvz since its change, protoss have figured out the map, they haven't been granted any particular change in the geography that allows them to dominate. Zergs have failed to adapt, Jaedong has failed to adapt, its their failings. Jaedongs awkwardness in his games against forgg and Hwasin through most of his matches with him, can be placed on Jaedongs lack of confidence recently, less so than the maps. Unless you can point out why Tiamat, Othello etc, are so damned impossible for even an incredibly skilled zerg to win, you are simply grasping at straws.
Never say Die! ||| Fight you? No, I want to kill you.
Prev 1 2 3 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
RotterdaM Event
16:00
Rotti Stream Rumble 4k Edition
RotterdaM443
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
mouzHeroMarine 762
RotterdaM 443
Hui .338
MaxPax 330
StarCraft: Brood War
Bisu 1963
EffOrt 1327
Flash 1236
Jaedong 1157
Hyuk 792
Stork 374
actioN 369
Soma 289
Soulkey 243
firebathero 173
[ Show more ]
Snow 171
Mind 99
JulyZerg 66
sSak 64
Barracks 60
TY 58
Sharp 48
Terrorterran 45
PianO 43
JYJ43
Rock 32
Yoon 24
HiyA 21
yabsab 17
Aegong 17
soO 16
GoRush 9
Shine 8
IntoTheRainbow 7
Dota 2
Gorgc6615
qojqva3321
League of Legends
singsing2243
Dendi1253
Counter-Strike
fl0m1160
markeloff169
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King257
Other Games
hiko1581
Beastyqt844
ceh9337
Lowko301
crisheroes248
ArmadaUGS149
KnowMe138
Trikslyr62
PGG 1
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick47269
StarCraft 2
angryscii 21
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 16 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• Reevou 6
• intothetv
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• Michael_bg 2
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Nemesis6915
• Jankos912
• TFBlade845
Other Games
• Shiphtur333
Upcoming Events
Replay Cast
7h 28m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
17h 28m
WardiTV European League
23h 28m
MaNa vs sebesdes
Mixu vs Fjant
ByuN vs HeRoMaRinE
ShoWTimE vs goblin
Gerald vs Babymarine
Krystianer vs YoungYakov
PiGosaur Monday
1d 7h
The PondCast
1d 17h
WardiTV European League
1d 19h
Jumy vs NightPhoenix
Percival vs Nicoract
ArT vs HiGhDrA
MaxPax vs Harstem
Scarlett vs Shameless
SKillous vs uThermal
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
1d 23h
Replay Cast
2 days
RSL Revival
2 days
ByuN vs SHIN
Clem vs Reynor
Replay Cast
3 days
[ Show More ]
RSL Revival
3 days
Classic vs Cure
FEL
3 days
RSL Revival
4 days
FEL
4 days
FEL
4 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
5 days
Bonyth vs QiaoGege
Dewalt vs Fengzi
Hawk vs Zhanhun
Sziky vs Mihu
Mihu vs QiaoGege
Zhanhun vs Sziky
Fengzi vs Hawk
Sparkling Tuna Cup
5 days
RSL Revival
5 days
FEL
5 days
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
6 days
Bonyth vs Dewalt
QiaoGege vs Dewalt
Hawk vs Bonyth
Sziky vs Fengzi
Mihu vs Zhanhun
QiaoGege vs Zhanhun
Fengzi vs Mihu
Liquipedia Results

Completed

BSL Season 20
HSC XXVII
Heroes 10 EU

Ongoing

JPL Season 2
BSL 2v2 Season 3
Acropolis #3
KCM Race Survival 2025 Season 2
CSL 17: 2025 SUMMER
Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
Championship of Russia 2025
RSL Revival: Season 1
Murky Cup #2
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25
BLAST Rivals Spring 2025
MESA Nomadic Masters
CCT Season 2 Global Finals
IEM Melbourne 2025

Upcoming

2025 ACS Season 2: Qualifier
CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
CSL Xiamen Invitational
2025 ACS Season 2
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
K-Championship
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
SEL Season 2 Championship
FEL Cracov 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.