TLMafia2 - all posts

67. 0cz3c
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53. Ace (Mayor)
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[QUOTE]On March 14 2008 15:51 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 14 2008 15:23 qrs wrote:
No. You keep saying that, but it's groundless. You're assuming that the Mafia will put up a higher percentage of its people for mayor than the town will, but there is no reason to think that that is the case.
1) Last game, when Chuiu closed the vote, 7/57 townies were candidates. 0/14 mafia were candidates. ([url=http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=66251&currentpage=39#763]link[/url]). That worked out fine for them, by the way.
2) It doesn't make sense for the Mafia to put up more than a couple of candidates:
a) The more people they put up, the harder it is to influence the vote for any one of them.
b) The more people they put up for election, the more people fingers can be pointed at down the line.

[quote]

The ONLY reason that happened is because the Townies were so fucking BAD. In a game full of good players, the Mafia might have been toasted. With no Mafia Mayor, and no Mafia Pardoner, and the Mafia not electing to try and get at least one person in office was a mistake.

It makes plenty of sense for the Mafia to put up more than 1 candidate, and when the game starts I may even get the chance to show you why. They dont have to influence the vote for any one candidate, they just need to start a bandwagon to get townies to believe it's the right choice. Even if they put up 3 people, in a game of 128 and possibly 6 to 7 candidates it will still take time and a lot of convincing to get caught.


[quote]
Townies, on the other hand, don't have to worry about these things.

3) You don't seem to realize that your reasoning cuts both ways: Sure, if you're right, and the Mafia will put up a higher percentage of candidates than the town, the odds favor voting for you, but if you're wrong, and the town will put up a higher percentage of candidates than the Mafia, the odds favor voting for someone other than you.

4) In any case, none of that is what I was saying in my above post. I said this: on that 1/7 chance that you are Mafia, you've locked yourself into being the Mafia candidate. That makes it slightly more likely, that between you and another candidate, you are the Mafioso. For argument's sake, take two people A and B. Assume the Mafia has at most one candidate. A has declared his candidacy beforehand. If neither is Mafia, that is that. If A is Mafia (1/7 chance), A is the Mafia candidate. If B is Mafia and A is not (~6/49 chance), B is the Mafia candidate. If both are Mafia (~1/49), A is the Mafia candidate, because he's already locked himself in. So everything else being equal, it is more likely that A is the Mafia's candidate.

You are A. You will probably not be Mafia (like any other given person), but everything else being equal, you are slightly more likely to be a Mafia candidate than someone else who is running.[/QUOTE]


3 - complete bullshit. There are no odds when it comes to voting for Mayor, especially if the last game is any proof.

4 - also complete crap. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.009
[QUOTE]On March 14 2008 16:09 Ace wrote:I didn't say having an innocent Mayor is nonsense obviously, what I was trying to get across is picking a Mayor based on whether they are innocent or not at the beginning is an incredibly stupid idea that will surely get the town into a major spot of trouble. Just simply go for the best leaders that make logical decisions and you dont need to care if they are innocent or not, because you can get out of a bad situation if they end up a Mafia mayor.

Even without a Mayor, the Town has Elders and Vigis. Sure we may lose a Mayor, but it surely isn't game over or even close. Really, the ideal setup to winning for the Townies is to have a competent leader that can convince even the most die hard Townies to vote the right way, and be smart about catching Mafia.

We don't need to know who the detectives are until a certain point - that's called roleclaiming which is a really good strategy when done right. All the DTs, if smart wouldnt all investigate the Mayor - some would surely hit the Pardoner or even a random townie acting stupid.


I've admined and played this game enough to know that when it comes to voting for Mayor trying to pick out who is innocent is a major waste of time unless someone messes up. Just going with "kill multiple birds with one stone" strats forces the Mafia's hand and gets the ball rolling for the townies to survive. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.009
[QUOTE]On March 14 2008 16:10 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 14 2008 16:06 qrs wrote:
[QUOTE][url=#]Show nested quote +[/url]
On March 14 2008 15:51 ahrara_ wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 14 2008 14:38 qrs wrote:
OK, so far fusion, caller, and Empyrean have all said that they will run for mayor no matter what. That means that if they end up mafioso, the Mafia practically has to put them up for election, otherwise it will be clear that they are Mafia (why else wouldn't they run).

IOW, if the Mafia puts up, say, two candidates, and any of these three are in the Mafia, he will be one of the two candidates. Something to keep in mind.[/QUOTE]
That doesn't make any logical sense. How would withdrawing their candidacy in any way make them look like scum?[/QUOTE]
The point is: they have said they are running. They have no reason to change that, unless they answer to someone else.[/QUOTE]

ok look to make this even simpler: I'm running for Mayor also.

See? Now even if any of us are Mafia we'll still run for Mayor and you can't figure anything out.

Your logic isn't adding up. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.009
[QUOTE]On March 14 2008 16:16 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 14 2008 16:10 qrs wrote:
[QUOTE][url=#]Show nested quote +[/url]
On March 14 2008 15:51 Ace wrote:
3 - complete bullshit. There are no odds when it comes to voting for Mayor, especially if the last game is any proof.[/QUOTE]
Good, you agree with me. fusionsdf was the one who was saying that there were odds, based on certain assumptions of his. I pointed out that under different assumptions, the odds would point in the other direction. Honestly, I don't think that there's a really strong basis for either set of assumptions.

ok good.


[QUOTE][url=#]Show nested quote +[/url]
4 - also complete crap. [/QUOTE]Actually, it's not. Think about it.
[/QUOTE]

I said 4 was crap because this is what it boils down to:

The Townies are electing a Mayor and Pardoner based on popularity, intelligence, and whether they think he/she isn't Mafia.

The Mafia are electing a Mafia Mayor, or a dumb Townie who is just as good as a Mafia Mayor.

Surely, you can see there are no odds to think about here. The number of Mafia do not matter. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.009
[QUOTE]On March 14 2008 16:18 Ace wrote:ok drop it, I'm done [IMG]/mirror/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG] [/QUOTE]

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[QUOTE]On March 14 2008 16:33 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 14 2008 16:26 qrs wrote:
[QUOTE]
On March 14 2008 16:22 RtS)Night[Mare wrote:
the games hasnt even started and you're already pointing fingers. cmon.[/QUOTE]lol, isn't that the point of the game?

[/QUOTE]

um...no it isn't.

lol @ 1st lynch request. [/QUOTE]

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[QUOTE]On March 15 2008 01:19 Ace wrote:Mayor isn't useless for Mafia, trust me.

Pardoner can get away with Pardoning Mafia if they are slick, and sometimes Vigis act dumb and go off revenge killing (cuz someone voted for them to get lynched)

This game will be interesting.[/QUOTE]

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[QUOTE]On March 18 2008 16:06 Ace wrote:I nominate myself as a mayoral candidate [IMG]/mirror/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

I've played and admined Mafia games before, know how powerful both Mayor and Pardoner roles can be in the right hands, and I'm pretty smart too.

[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.019
[QUOTE]On March 18 2008 16:13 Ace wrote:Ghar just posted a strategy that tends to work pretty well, assuming there are no Godfather roles in the game (there aren't).

Also added to that, whoever gets Mayor knows who the bodyguards are. Clearly, they should PM all the Bodyguards and set them all up to know each other's ID. This way the Town has a starting force of innocents off the bat.

Also, even if a Mafia Mayor does this, the Bodyguards should all double check with each other in PM land, and assume that if the Mayor is not proven innocent by a DT soon, he is possibly lying about one of his BGs being legit - I've done this strat in the past as a Godfather Mafia Mayor.

With the above strategy, we can easily have a group of innocent Townies assembled off the bat, even with a Mafia Mayor he'd have to put some of the Townies into power doing this. It's a good strat to start the Townies off on a good foot. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.020
[QUOTE]On March 18 2008 16:40 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 18 2008 16:29 Ghar wrote:
More ideas since the thread just got quiet


Though at the moment I'm still contemplating whether it's beneficial to start weeding numbers quickly, or wait until a relatively sure kill before attacking.


Thoughts and suggestions guys?[/QUOTE]

I like to start the game off with weeding out strats that are easy to follow - this controls discussion and gives everyone focal points.

One of the biggest reasons the Townies always lose is because they start posting nonsense, arguing about retarded shit, revenge voting, and seem to listen to the most nonsense posts for voting someone to get lynched.

With weeding strats:

1.) We keep the focus on a few people
2.) allows the Detectives to split up their work. If they see the town gunning for some people, they can investigate OTHER people. This is a major help.
3.) Mafia members can no longer sit back and watch the town kill themselves - they have to get in on discussions. This way, they are in the spotlight just like we need them to be. [/QUOTE]

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[QUOTE]On March 18 2008 16:50 Ace wrote:I agree with the confirming roles to Mayor part once he's found innocent, and after the Mayor the Pardoner should be investigated also asap.

What I meant by splitting work is that once the town has 2 or 3 targets for lynching the people caught in voting patterns (or "unvoting") patterns should be examined asap instead of the suspects because the Town will, and should continue to hone in on them.

[/QUOTE]

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[QUOTE]On March 18 2008 16:55 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 18 2008 16:52 ahrara_ wrote:
[QUOTE][url=#]Show nested quote +[/url]
From there a team can be developed, people with roles should PM the mayor, and he sends detectives to investigate them to be sure. Only mafia would fake roles, so investigating them serves as hard proof of their legit role, or will reveal a mafia faking a role.[/QUOTE]
Ghar, your plan is seriously flawed. I don't think you've thought this through, which is why I'm going to encourage people not to vote for you. If there was a contest over best election poster however, you'd win by a landslide.

There are four detectives. They can use their role finding abilities twice in the game, and once a day. However, noone knows who the detectives are. A mafia mayor could have a fellow mobster, even two, pretend to be detectives and report that you're the mayor. You could have the detectives detect the detectives, but that'd cause the same problem, and the real detectives would be using their abilities in vain. So it's not that easy, but at least it's better than what FS did.

edit:

For chrissake, if you're going to run for mayor, do more than a half-assed job. Can't be worse than fakesteve doesn't cut it.[/QUOTE]

I'm sure you didn't read his entire post, because the strategy makes a lot of sense EVEN when the Mayor is Mafia because it forces the Mayor to do some work that benefits the Town.[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.021
[QUOTE]On March 18 2008 17:08 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 18 2008 17:02 aZnvaLiaNce wrote:
See, all this business behind what strategy is best for the future mayor is all based on the honor code and who's being honest. Seriously, I think it's best to put the strategy behind us until the first day/night cycle is done just to see how the important roles act/react to events happening, in particular the mayor.[/QUOTE]


Oh lord...

Look, just throwing everyone in the pit,waiting for the Mafia to kill 9 ppl and then seeing "what happens" is not always a good strategy.

If we do the plan Ghar suggested, along with myself then we have a starting point which is CRUCIAL for the town.

If ALL the Townies know the Strategy beforehand, and ALL the Mafia knows it then we've eliminated a lot of random elements and are now in a position where everyone knows the next moves that the Townies need to win, and the Mafia need to stop us from doing so.

With that in mind and clues from the Day/Night posts, we can now trap Mafia members because we know clearly how any logical Innocent person would act.

What you just posted pretty much asks us to commit suicide (see last game). [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.021
[QUOTE]On March 18 2008 17:11 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 18 2008 17:04 ahrara_ wrote:
[QUOTE][url=#]Show nested quote +[/url]
I'm sure you didn't read his entire post, because the strategy makes a lot of sense EVEN when the Mayor is Mafia because it forces the Mayor to do some work that benefits the Town.[/QUOTE]
I don't understand. If the mayor is mafia, and he convinces the real detectives to find out people's roles for him, then it's pretty much game over. If he's not mafia, he can't absolutely trust the detectives, because the mafia could be faking 4 detectives and reporting mob members as having the roles.

BTW Ghar, I didn't mean you were half-assing it. I mean, well, it's clear the liquidians I'm talking about.[/QUOTE]

Except that the Mayor is investigated FIRST so the real DTs are going to know if he's dirty or clean ASAP.

There is a plan for the Mayor to figure out if the DTs are lying or not, and I won't post that here until later. The Mafia also isn't crazy enough to fake FOUR people. That would be ridiculously stupid.

[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.022
[QUOTE]On March 18 2008 17:36 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 18 2008 17:22 aZnvaLiaNce wrote:
[QUOTE][url=#]Show nested quote +[/url]
On March 18 2008 17:14 Ghar wrote:
You'll be able to know if there are fake detectives if the mayor suddenly has more than 4 people report to him.[/QUOTE]



2.) Towny mayor: This is hard. Early on, you can't really trust who's who and the mayor doesn't know who the fake detectives are. Later on, however, if 4 of those 6 report in again when asked, then it becomes somewhat easier to discern people. If more than 4, then ask for a third time. Those who do report in are fakes then. However, you do this at the expense of losing all your detective reports for the game, so do this at your own risk.

[/QUOTE]

In scenario 2, The Mayor immediately role claims for all 6.

Essentially, he says 6 people reported and only 4 can be DTS, and puts ALL the names into public. Now the Town has 2 sure fire Mafia, the Medics can easily see who they should think about saving, and the Mafia is fucked because if they don't kill any of the real DTs at night they live to investigate another night. If they DO kill any of the DTs, then that just tightens the noose on the other 2 Mafia posing DTs. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.022
[QUOTE]On March 18 2008 17:42 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 18 2008 17:31 ahrara_ wrote:
Ok ACE, I think Ghar's already posted your plan. So as I understand it, it's up for a real detective to report the mayor as mafia in case he is mafia. To verify this, we lynch said detective (as he's going to get killed anyway if he's real) to see if he's telling the truth. If he wasn't, that's one mafia down. If he was, then we lynch the mayor next. From there on, the mayor does his best to verify the other roles. I buy it so far, but I'll think about it before I vote. For now anyway, my vote is leading towards Ghar, because it's becoming more apparent to me how much rests on the mayor's shoulders, and Ghar's the only one who's given us a solid strategy. I also don't think he's mafia because of how fast his candidacy came up. I agree with bumatlarge. If I were mob, I wouldn't go run for mayor on a whim the moment the game starts.

[/QUOTE]

don't lynch the DT - if he's legit let the Mafia have to kill him and waste killing power.
Or, let another DT verify him. In this case if a Mafia member poses DT we have a sure fire place to nab them off of now.[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.022
[QUOTE]On March 18 2008 17:46 Ace wrote:Oh and about the quote in Ghar's profile:

All right, they're on our left, they're on our right, they're in front of us, they're behind us... they can't get away this time" -- Lieutenant General Lewis B."Chesty" Puller (when surrounded by 8 enemy divisions) - United States Marine Corps[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.023
[QUOTE]On March 18 2008 18:45 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 18 2008 18:32 xDark.Carnivalx wrote:
[QUOTE]
On March 18 2008 18:27 Evilmonkey. wrote:
I was tickled when I saw that I had two pms, one being from Randombum. If he took the time to present his case to everyone, then he has the time to be a good mayor. He looks to have my vote.[/QUOTE]

the problem with that is it was rather inefficient to send pms like that to everyone, and it wasn't a personal request; the time it took to send out the same pm to everyone seems to be the main reason people are even considering to vote for him, and that is a rather silly way to vote for the mayor. it would have been much simpler had he just announced his running for mayor in the thread, which points to him not being the best person for mayor. it's not only about who might be mafia, it's about who is best for the job.[/QUOTE]

Great points here.

Also I'm not going to vote for Araav because he made a script. And his points for running for Mayor were not good enough in my eyes.

Just as an aide to future voters and other games when it comes to Mayor voting, here is my strategy:

You have no idea who is guilty or innocent Day 1. Even with the clues, it's all speculation unless we find a 100% concrete link.

With this rule in mind whether or not someone is Mafia or Innocent can't be the crux of your decision. Base it off of who seems intelligent,logical and active enough to help the Town survive. Anyone with a plan is better than someone without one even if their plan sucks - that way we have somewhere to start off debating which as I've stated numerous times is critical.

Voting for someone based on logic is our best defense. Even with a Mafia Mayor, we all know how to discern when someone is acting irrationally aka against the best interest of the Town. With this in mind we can easily trap a Mafia Mayor, and even force them to do work that benefits the Town asap like The Bodyguard linking strat I posted earlier.

Even better is that this kind of plan works with the Pardoner also [IMG]/mirror/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

As of now I'm voting for Ghar to be Mayor, and if that fails I hope he becomes Pardoner.

[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.023
[QUOTE]On March 18 2008 18:50 Ace wrote:ugh ok you people are really either acting slightly on drugs or something.

HOW does Araav knowing programming languages benefit us?

Seriously ask yourself that.

I know C/C++, Java, and Assembly but that really won't help me find Mafia members now will it?[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.025
[QUOTE]On March 18 2008 23:26 Ace wrote:WHOA WAIT WAIT WAIT HAS NO ONE READ MY POSTS!?

You guys are starting to use a lot of faulty logic!

I'm going to get to all of it later with a large post, but for now Araav I can't believe you would say that Ghar doesn't have a convincing plan when NO ONE else even has a plan. And you want to be Mayor? Sorry, but that post actually gave me very good reason not to vote for you.

"Lynch me to find out" does not mean he doesn't care about the Town - you are reaching really far into nothing with that statement.

Ghar is the only person so far that has a solid plan and I've used plans similar to it in other games - it works.

Empryean has no business being Mayor or Pardoner. That move shows incredibly bad strategic thinking for a Townie and would be of no use to us. Otherwise he is possibly a Mafia in disguise trying to force the town's hand - either way he doesn't belong in either role.

As for you people asking about the DT plan:

If more than 4 people PM Ghar about being DT thats GREAT for the Town. Because now we'd have a suspect list and people caught false role claiming meaning we certainly have some Mafia cornered.

Also remember if we DO lose some DT roles somehow - we have Jacks. These players can be backup DTs if need be, so don't think we'd be dead asap because we lost 1 or 2 detectives somehow.

I've said it before the Town needs focus, and Ghar's plan is a good place to start for this theme to work.

Also, I am running for Mayor. I said it before but don't think I made it obvious. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.025
[QUOTE]On March 18 2008 23:30 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 18 2008 23:12 araav wrote:
[QUOTE]
On March 18 2008 23:03 Ghar wrote:
[QUOTE]How would you know they are actually DTs though, could just as easily be mafia saying "hay, I checked you out, you're legit, and I'm a DT". Given that would mean more than four people would message you, but you still wouldn't know who is lying. Not to mention of not all DTs are active, or follow the plan.[/QUOTE]
There are a few things I would ask them to do before I'd be satisfied they're legit. I won't disclose that at the moment in case mafia make a counter strategy.

[QUOTE]let's analyze a bit.

In case you happen to be a mafia and a detective finds it out, mafia sacrifies a simple member to a town's ability to have extra mafia lynches. sounds very appealing from mafia's perspective.

so this is NOT a good, convincing plan. And you still did nothing for me not to suspect you.[/QUOTE]
It's better than having a mafia mayor leading people to death. What I'm aiming for though is the best case scenario to set up a network of people with roles, that gives the best chance at winning. I'm not trying to convince you, I said already, all claims of not being mafia are moot. I'm providing a strategy to victory, because that's more feasible than trying to clear a name that can't be cleared at the moment[/QUOTE]

you so-called strategy is simply too superficial and could easily move to a Mayor lose for the town.

At this stage of the game, it is best to vote for people who seem towny - i.e. DO not seem suspicious AT ALL: no clue-interpretations about them, no stupid moves (like Empy did)[/QUOTE]

What the hell? You can NOT be serious with this post?

This post is further showing me NOT to vote for you as Mayor. Come on, how can anyone not see this post says exactly why you shouldn't be in a Mayor or Pardoner role?

You're accusing the guy off of 1 Day of clues when NO ONE can clear his or her name right now, and NO ONE can be convicted at all because there isn't enough evidence and no DT can do anything.

You're jumping too far to conclusions way too fast with little evidence, that is BAD.


[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.025
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 00:12 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 18 2008 23:45 Hittegods wrote:
[QUOTE][url=#]Show nested quote +[/url]
On March 18 2008 23:26 Ace wrote:
WHOA WAIT WAIT WAIT HAS NO ONE READ MY POSTS!?
If more than 4 people PM Ghar about being DT thats GREAT for the Town. Because now we'd have a suspect list and people caught false role claiming meaning we certainly have some Mafia cornered.[/QUOTE]
Wouldn't that mean outing the four real DTs though? For the price of one mafia member they could possibly get a list of all DTs? Unless the mayor plans on doing all the investigation himself, which could work I guess. Also, even if Empyrean did a bad move and outed himself, wouldn't an incompetent DT be better for the town, than a dead one?
[/QUOTE]

this is from a past post I made about outting the real DTs:

[QUOTE]
In scenario 2, The Mayor immediately role claims for all 6.

Essentially, he says 6 people reported and only 4 can be DTS, and puts ALL the names into public. Now the Town has 2 sure fire Mafia, the Medics can easily see who they should think about saving, and the Mafia is fucked because if they don't kill any of the real DTs at night they live to investigate another night. If they DO kill any of the DTs, then that just tightens the noose on the other 2 Mafia posing DTs.

[/QUOTE]

It's part of a role claiming strategy. Take all that info, and now add the medics. With 4 DTs or possibly more, the Town has 2 major advantages:

1.) Some people are clearly lying
2.) The medics have a list of people that need protecting

There is also another part to this strategy I'm going to post soon [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.025
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 00:15 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 00:09 Amber[LighT] wrote:
[QUOTE][url=#]Show nested quote +[/url]
On March 18 2008 23:26 Ace wrote:


If more than 4 people PM Ghar about being DT thats GREAT for the Town. Because now we'd have a suspect list and people caught false role claiming meaning we certainly have some Mafia cornered.

. [/QUOTE]

Uhhhh no? You can't say that people who are faking the Detective spot are necessarily mafia. They can be townies as well. Don't forget it's the Mafia vs. The Townies & The Townies vs. The Townies.
[/QUOTE]


Why would ANY Townie that isn't a moron claim the DT role?

Anyone faking DT has to be Mafia, because any Townie doing that after reading all these posts explaining the plan would realize they are hurting the Town by doing so.

also, this is not in any way Townies vs Townies. At all. More so it's the uninformed majority vs the informed minority, and one of the ways to get around that trend is to share info with those that we 100% know is innocent. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.026
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 00:45 Ace wrote:The Bodyguard Plan

This is a strategy I've used in the past to win games, and it works very well if even a slight majority of the main players involved use it.

The base of this plan lends itself to the fact that no innocent Townie knows for sure who else is innocent or what roles they are. Also is the fact that the main disadvantage the Town has is lack of information, whereas our main advantage is numbers. Combining these two things is the Bodyguard Plan.

At the start of the game, the only non-Mafia/elected roles that any other player can possibly know for sure is a Bodyguard. The Mayor receives this info once elected into office. This plan is best with an innocent Mayor, but it also forces a Mafia Mayor to help the town in the event he/she is ever elected.

When the Mayor is elected, their first plan of action should be to PM all the Bodyguards each other's identities. This pus information into the hands of the Townies that is critical.

Assume there are 7 bodyguards. The Mayor PMs all of them the identity of the other 6. All of them then PM each other to

1: confirm they got a PM stating they are the bodyguard from the Mayor
2: make sure they ALL have the same list of Bodyguards

In the case of an Innocent Mayor doing this, we have 7 townies all on the same side off the jump and this will be a major help to the Town if they all know the roles of 6 other innocents asap.

In the case of a Mafia Mayor he could actually try and add a Mafia member to the list of Bodyguards or ignore a real Bodyguard - and this is where the true failsafe in the plan comes in.

Failsafe:

Remember, all Bodyguards SHOULD get that PM. If any of the Bodyguards don't get it then they should know something is clearly fishy and should investigate hastily.
The Mayor would be investigated from Day 1, so the Town will know for sure if he/she is innocent or not which will allow the Bodyguards to know they can or can't trust the Mayor. If the Mayor turns out dirty, the Bodyguards will clearly speak up asap. If the Mayor is legit, then that Bodyguard list is 100% legit and ensures we have a solid base to start from.

In summary the idea of this plan is self checking:
1.) The Bodyguards know they have to get a PM
2.) The Mayor knows they have to PM the Bodyguards the Bodyguard list
3.) The Bodyguards PM each other to check their lists
4.) The Mayor also knows that they will be investigated asap by a DT

If the Mayor tends to be Mafia and releases a corrupted list, then the BGs will speak up and name the people on the list. The DTs paying attention to this, investigate the names.

In the case of an innocent Mayor this 100% guarantees us safety, in the case of a Mafia Mayor it takes us at worst 2 days to clean up the mess. This is my plan of action to start the game off.


In the event the list is released publicly, the best part of this plan is that the spotlight is taken off of the Detectives and put on the Bodyguards. This allows the Detectives to stay quiet, and for the Medics to have a list of people they need to watch. Remember what I stated earlier - the Town's main disadvantage is that we lack information and this plan serves to rectify that while maximizing our main advantage - numbers.

Once the base has been formed (Mayors + Bodyguards) we can start generating a list of suspects together, and figuring out roles down the road. To succeed the Town needs a strong start, and this plan is one of such.[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.026
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 00:45 Ace wrote:If you have any questions about the plan post it PUBLICLY so we can discuss it.[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.026
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 00:46 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 00:28 L wrote:

[QUOTE]
Why would ANY Townie that isn't a moron claim the DT role?[/QUOTE] Veteran looking to absorb hits? Jack? Etc.[/QUOTE]

But why would they PM that info to the Mayor? That would cause confusion that the Town doesn't need. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.026
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 00:49 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 00:28 qrs wrote:
[QUOTE][url=#]Show nested quote +[/url]
On March 18 2008 18:50 Ace wrote:
ugh ok you people are really either acting slightly on drugs or something.

HOW does Araav knowing programming languages benefit us?

Seriously ask yourself that.

I know C/C++, Java, and Assembly but that really won't help me find Mafia members now will it?[/QUOTE]
Well, keeping track of the profiles, etc. does benefit us, but more to the point, he bothered to do it. If he was Mafia, that would be a questionable move: who knows how long it would take for us to get the information together otherwise? Therefore I think that araav's using his programming skills to help the town is an indication that he is a towny.[/QUOTE]

Honestly look, if I was Mafia I'd also be going out of my way to do stuff to prove it benefits the Town. The point of the matter is you guys are basing your votes off something that has NOTHING to do with his skills at playing the game, it's just that he bothered to do it.

He hasn't even posted a plan of action, all he has done is code something and you guys are ready to vote for him. Sorry, I've played this game way too many times and while it doesn't paint araav as Innocent or Mafia, it surely makes me question his ability to lead the town when their are better candidates out there. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.026
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 00:50 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 00:34 Amber[LighT] wrote:
[QUOTE][url=#]Show nested quote +[/url]
On March 19 2008 00:15 Ace wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 00:09 Amber[LighT] wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 18 2008 23:26 Ace wrote:


If more than 4 people PM Ghar about being DT thats GREAT for the Town. Because now we'd have a suspect list and people caught false role claiming meaning we certainly have some Mafia cornered.

. [/QUOTE]

Uhhhh no? You can't say that people who are faking the Detective spot are necessarily mafia. They can be townies as well. Don't forget it's the Mafia vs. The Townies & The Townies vs. The Townies.
[/QUOTE]


Why would ANY Townie that isn't a moron claim the DT role?

Anyone faking DT has to be Mafia, because any Townie doing that after reading all these posts explaining the plan would realize they are hurting the Town by doing so.

also, this is not in any way Townies vs Townies. At all. More so it's the uninformed majority vs the informed minority, and one of the ways to get around that trend is to share info with those that we 100% know is innocent. [/QUOTE]

lol did you play last game?[/QUOTE]

I read it, and thats the exact situation I'm trying to avoid this time around.
[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.026
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 01:14 Ace wrote:Vote count:


LastRomantic - aZnvaLiaNce(1)
SoMuchBetter - SoMuchBetter(1)
randombum - Dr.Dragoon,Alethios,G.s)Naruto,Sadir,fanatacist,Bockit,BWdero,Ninja4ever(8)
fusionsdf - Plexa,Zbir,Kau(3)
Plexa - ssj100,Seifu(2)
SonuvBob - LTT,Joxxor,wurm,Heros)Pink(4)
Ghar - falcynn,Ace,ahrara,Pangolin,GranDim,Mandalor,Amber[Light],rpf(8)
araav - meta,SonuvBob,RowdierBob,Klive5ive,xDark.Carnivalx,Naib,Neax,Energies,qrs(9)
Empyrean - Caller,Eti307,Showtime,MTF,BloodyCobbler,NatsuTerran,RtS)NightMare(7)
Ace- Ghar,Spoinka(2)
[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.026
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 01:15 Ace wrote:whoops sorry, had this post waiting but didnt catch Nightmare's in time[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.026
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 01:18 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 01:06 qrs wrote:
[QUOTE][url=#]Show nested quote +[/url]
On March 19 2008 00:45 Ace wrote:
The Bodyguard Plan...[/QUOTE]
Now, that sounds like a good plan. Let me go you one better (unless this is what you meant): after the bodyguards are confirmed, let the mayor release one of their names publically. If it's a lie, the other bodyguards can call it. Now we have a guaranteed towny and all the detectives, etc. can PM their roles to him. In turn, he can forward them to the other bodyguards, so that even if the Mafia kills him, there will still be townies who know the important roles and can co-ordinate.

I'll consider switching my vote to you, but it doesn't matter that much. We can follow your plan whether or not you are the mayor.[/QUOTE]


Now you're seeing it the way I hoped everyone would.

And yes, whether or not I am Mayor I would hope this plan or something even better is followed![/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.027
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 01:39 Ace wrote:I don't understand why anyone would suspect Ghar.

Even worse, BWdero why are you suspecting him just because others are?

We barely have any clues, and he hasn't done anything through his posts that can target him as Mafia.

Please people, lets not get into the practice of bandwagon suspicion so early. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.027
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 01:46 Ace wrote:Even if they pointed to him more than slightly, at least we know what his plan is and where his logic lies. If he ever started acting out of character or illogical, ie blatantly doing something that hinders the town we'd know for sure something is fishy about him.

With almost everyone else we have no idea what they are going to do. And when we have no idea what they can do or plan to do, they are less accountable and there is more room for "accidents" and "oops" moments.

At least with Ghar we've got a guy thats willing to explain his actions upfront, his plan, and even has ideas of what to do in case it does not work.

FAR better than what anyone else is offering right now. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.027
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 01:54 Ace wrote:Well I'm not trying to be modest here lol.

Also, even though clues may point to a certain person as a Townie there are 2 things that should inspire your votes when lynching time arrives:

1.) Clues and discussions about them
2.) What people post and who they vote for, but more importantly what they DONT post


Number 2 is going to help you a lot more than #1 in the long run. I've already got a list of everyone who's posted in this thread, who they voted for, and comments about everyone's thinking patterns.

Once I start to see people act fishy, or incredibly stupid I'll check it against my info and see whats up and vote accordingly. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.027
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 02:10 Ace wrote:Just as an exercise in discussion and thinking, what clue points to Ghar, and on a scale of 1-10 how would you rate it's relevance?[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.027
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 02:28 Ace wrote:Actually I'm hoping a lot of people will do it, because that way all of us get to see what kind of thinking patterns everyone else uses.

I posted the quote just so you guys know exactly where his quote comes from, not because I think he is Mafia at all. 8 people in his way, and 8 enemy divisions is a very far reach right now. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.028
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 02:50 Ace wrote:Klive, honestly you are posting complete horse shit right now.

But I won't debate that right now - that only leads to confusion among the Town and takes away from what we need to do right now - vote for a Mayor.

Either way, you really have no solid arguments as to why Ghar shouldn't be Mayor. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.028
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 02:51 Ace wrote:Also, please explain to me how if a Mafia Mayor carries out the BodyGuard plan, he will wield great power.

I'm serious, I want to hear it so that we can all analyze the plan in the open and work out any questions or flaws that can be exploited. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.028
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 03:07 Ace wrote:Actually following the plan hurts the Mafia.

1.)
Remember what I said, all Bodyguards now know each other's ID + The Mayor. Once the Mayor is investigated, if no one speaks up obviously he has to be legit. I doubt any DT that investigates the Mayor and finds him guilty would stay quiet in fear of their death - that would be selfish and harm the Town.

2.)
Even so, let's assume that NO detectives investigate the Mayor. Either way with 7 people and The Mayor, thats a lot of communication going on to find Mafia. At some point, and I'm hoping for this, the Bodyguards will have to question the Mayors decisions. Even better, they do this publicly. The Mayor has to defend certain actions, and if he is acting suspicious with no good reason something is up.

In 1, whether or not the Mayor is innocent is going to be found out very fast.
In 2, the Mayor in the case of being Mafia even if not found out has the added task of killing innocents while appearing to do good by 7 other people who also know each other, and that they are all 100% innocent (refer back to the plan to find out how).

So how can a Mafia Mayor who follows the Bodyguard Plan still harm the Town?
Possibly by trying to trick the Bodyguards into doing something horrible, but with 7 ppl that's going to be hard because that isn't enough for mob mentality to take over - and I doubt all of them would be that gullible.

The plan works even if the Mayor doesn't mess with the list - we get a verified Mayor and his allies by the time day 2 starts. How is that not good enough?[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.028
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 03:13 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 02:59 Lysithea wrote:
[QUOTE][url=#]Show nested quote +[/url]
On March 19 2008 02:13 Lysithea wrote:
...

If Empyrean is a DT he could be very valuable as pardoner but it's something about the whole thing that just feels out of place. I'm tempted to vote for him, not for mayor but as pardoner. Wish we could have more campaigning from his side. My question to all of you is: would it be beneficial enough for mafia to even attempt the stunt empyrean is employing? Would it be reasonable? I'm asking cause I'm not sure whether to vote for Empyrean or someone else in the case of me voting for a pardoner spot.

...[/QUOTE]

Reposting this part from my own post since I really want peoples thoughts on this.[/QUOTE]

Ok here's my take - it would be a pretty good idea from a Mafia standpoint.

1.) Empryean did very well last game
2.) For some reason, people think the probability of him being Mafia again has changed when it really hasn't
3.) He claims a role that is important and can't be verified right now
4.) Most importantly, it adds confusion to the game

4 is the prime reason that if I were Mafia, it would be a great tool. People trust Empryean, and if another DT comes and investigates him well they'd be hard pressed to prove it - and now the Mafia knows another DT role with nothing else weighing in on their decisions aka an easy kill. Thats an element of confusion that takes away from the main focus, and the easiest way for the Mafia to win is to confuse the Townies.

I'm not saying Empryean is Mafia, but that was a very risky move. There was no point in revealing his alleged role so early in the game. Maybe he's afraid that he'd be killed early and is innocent after all - and if that's the case for someone so smart he should have provided a better angle of campaigning.

[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.029
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 03:33 Ace wrote:by "debate that" I meant your issues with Ghar.
Sorry if I wasn't more clear, and sorry for the insult [IMG]/mirror/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG]

Getting rid of double lynches is not going to matter to the Mafia UNLESS we obviously have Townies that are clearly on the right path - that point is moot.

Double lynching is essentially only good for when we have a situation where it's an EITHER/OR case.

Example: Only 1 Medic is left alive, and 2 people claim the role. With only Medic no one has a reliable chance of living at night anyway, and one of these people is lying and the town somehow can't decide. Call for the Double lynch because it destroys the Mafia killing power.

The Detectives being scared to reveal their roles would hurt the town. And I'm betting that we've got some smart, rational detectives on our side. Surely, to save the Town they'd give themselves up. But not only that, role claiming at the right time will screw the Mafia over. This is something I wanted to reveal later, but I'll partially post it now:

While the Mafia knows each other and have the advantage of secrecy, they also lack information - namely roles. With this in mind, whenever a role that is crucial is publicly revealed they usually want to kill them - sometimes.

Where does that sometimes pop up? When they damn well know that Medics will protect that target at all costs. Which means that they'd have to send a lot of killing power to get rid of that person. Which also means they cant kill as many people that very night which is good for the town. That 1 detective could actually save a couple of lives.

hold on - it gets better.

I mentioned earlier on the forum something along the lines of Mafia have it easy when their are only a couple of really good targets to kill. When you add in like 5 or 6 good targets, they have an issue. If the Town knows that 5 or 6 of their best could possibly be killed, the Medics know that. And the Mafia knows that the Medics know that. So they are somewhat stuck in a rut as they definitely can't kill ALL of them, and they don't know which ones are getting protected.

Wait. There's on more good part to this.

We have Jacks. Any DT that is playing this game can realize that even if they died, we have Jacks that could replace them if need be. I doubt anyone is playing THAT selfish and is worried that somehow role claiming at the right time to help the town with critical information is a bad choice.

[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.029
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 03:39 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 03:24 randombum wrote:
Ace the bodyguard plan is not faulty, but merely that even if implemented its not that great. True that is 7 people who are working together, but 10(mayorx4) will not be able to change much with 130 people voting. It is FAR more important for information to be shared with everybody. (not who are bodyguards but other information.) The mafia or pardoner's position should be the mouthpieces of the town. Detectives (don't have to reveal their detective status) can send information to mayor. The mayor repeats it to the town. Thereby giving the town the ability hear all the information from everyone, but keeping those people anonymous. So the more involved people do not have to share their opinions publicly. This keeps our active people alive, but they ideas are still shared. [/QUOTE]

I agree with some of this randombum. The Bodyguard plan is not the full plan I would use, it's just a start that gets information around and gets the town into a good setting.

Whether or not the BG roles need to be revealed is a different issue and I think it's worth telling at a certain time. In most Mafia games, the town does something called Role Claiming which is a great thing to do. It brings out conflicts because surely Mafia members need to claim SOMETHING.

However, the Mayor + BodyGuards DO have the power to change the voting. Remember, if everyone knows that the plan is being followed and nothing comes out about a guilty mayor, then they must be innocent. And if the innocent Mayor has a committee of innocents, that drops the suspect list down to 122, gets information flowing, and eliminates red herrings in clue posts.

Surely, that is a much better plan than what we have now?

wait, what DO we have now?[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.029
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 03:47 Ace wrote:The problem with just revealing one Bodyguard is that it's too easy of a target if the Mafia have no one else they need to kill asap.

However, what we can do is just let the Mayor speak for "the committee" once he's known to be innocent. At that point, the BGs don't have to be revealed yet.

[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.030
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 03:51 Ace wrote:Ok so as an addendum to the plan:

Once the Mayor is confirmed innocent, he/she is the mouthpiece of the committe (Mayor + BGs).

After that, by day 2 we have a new course of action:

check clues, look for suspects.
Investigate the Pardoner.
Any innocents can PM the Mayor their role, who will share this with the committee.

randombum: I'll talk more about role claiming at a later date.[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.030
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 04:02 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 03:57 Falcynn wrote:
[QUOTE][url=#]Show nested quote +[/url]
On March 19 2008 03:54 zeks wrote:
Isn't it more advantageous to have both the mayor and pardoner on the same "line"?

Should we consider that when voting...like making a sure a pair of mayor-pardoner that can work together well?[/QUOTE]To be honest the pardoner seems like a useless position for a towny until maybe really really late in the game. The only good thing that comes from granting someone Pardoner status is the bodyguard protection, so we don't really need a pardoner who works well with the mayor. We just need to put a towny that we want to keep protected.[/QUOTE]

Pardoner is actually very powerful if the Town is somehow mob voting and the Pardoner figures out in time if something is fishy.

The Pardoner should pretty much be treated as a second Mayor, since that person should also be pretty good at leading the Town and figuring things out.

And yes, the last point that it should be someone we want to protect should be taken into account. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.030
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 04:28 Ace wrote:current vote count that I have:

LastRomantic - aznvaliance (1)

Empyrean - LastRomantic, Meta,Eti307,Showtime,MTF,BloodyC0bbler,RST Nightmare,NatsuTerran,Solosteer,Jim Tudor,nemy,decafchicken (13)

Ace - CDRdude,Joxxor,Ghar,spoinka,Hittegods,Hollander,Naib,useless,GeneralStan,Shadowdrgn, Lysithea,Falcynn,zeks,Mynock,Caller (15)

randombum - Drdragoon,Alethios,G.S)Naruto,Sadir,fanatacist,Bockit,GranDim,Ninja4ever, so no fek,shallow[bay] (10)

fusionsdf - plexa,ZBIR (2)

plexa - ssj100,Seifu (2)

Sonuvbob - LTT.wurm,Heros)Pink (2)

Ghar - Ace,ahrara,Pangolin,Mandalor,Amber[Light],rpf,Ziel (7)

araav - SonuvBob,RowdierBob,Klive5ive,xdark,Neax,Energies,qsr (7)
[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.037
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 07:54 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 05:13 Falcynn wrote:
[QUOTE][url=#]Show nested quote +[/url]
On March 19 2008 05:09 Lenwe wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 05:02 Artanis[Xp] wrote:
I'd just like to say something about the bodyguard plan with one bodyguard stepping up front to accept everyone's roles; This could easily be done by the mafia too if the mayor is a mafia member. Mafia could fake being a bodyguard and thus it's not really any better then just sending the roles to the mayor.
[/QUOTE]
If there are 7 bodyguards and one doesn't get the message he will know something fishy is going on.
[/QUOTE]Only the mayor knows who the body guards are, even the bodyguards themselves don't know. So if a bodyguard doesn't get a message...he'll just assume that he's not a bodyguard.
[/QUOTE]

Hmmm? Not quite. Remember that Chuiu PMs everyone their Bodyguard Roles after elections. If a Bodyguard doesn't get a message something is fishy because he knows the Mayor has to know who he/she is, and that if the Mayor is following the plan they HAVE to PM them.

This is the self-checking part of the plan.

Also guys, I don't think we need to reveal a bodyguard. Whoever wins mayor will undoubtedly be checked up on by a Detective or a Jack, and if found Mafia will be turned out ASAP. If things are quiet, we can be sure as heck that they must be innocent.

The Mayor will be the mouthpiece of "the committee" (Bodyguards + Mayor)


[QUOTE]
1. Even if I were mafia, a mafia mayor would still be good for the town.

Think about it. Mayors have to act in town interest. If he doesn't, there is mass suspicion against him, and he can be lynched. It's in the town's best interest to always enact double-lynches. If, for some reason, the mayor declines, he's pretty much voted dead the next day.
[/QUOTE]

It's NOT in The Town's best interest to always enact double lynches - they are only useful is some critical information is going to be revealed or the case where out of the candidates someone is SURELY Mafia and we have exhausted other attempts at figuring it out.

[QUOTE]
2. Yes, I am forcing the town's hand.

I'm fine with having someone confirm me as a detective, or for having people give me questions to confirm. If I am not mayor or pardoner, I'll be a likely target for the mafia the first night. They're smart enough to put multiple hits on people to ensure bodyguard protection is wasted. If mafia don't target me first night, I'll be able to reveal some more clues until they're forced to kill me or otherwise be revealed.
[/QUOTE]

I'm not fine with anyone confirming anything based on you - because what you're asking is a system where you are the only person accountable for anything. In other words, you are asking for blind trust and using your abilities in last game (which have 0 bearing on your status this game) as a crutch to get elected - and I'm not for it.

[QUOTE]
A detective mayor/pardoner is the best bet for the town.

Why? At the end of the game, it's likely that at least one bodyguard will still be alive. When the playing field has diminished so greatly, I'll be able to ask "What is [player]'s role" which leads to an immediate mafia death.

That's why you should vote for me.
[/QUOTE]

Surely you don't think we are this stupid???

1.) You role claim at a point no one can justify
2.) You are pretty much asking for blind trust
3.) You have no plan

Seriously, if people keep saying you are so good at this game I can't help but ignore how BAD this move is for the town. It's a very selfish move akin to "I don't want to die" and your campaign for Mayor/Pardoner isn't even strong at all.

I seriously hope people do not vote for you, because you definitely are not acting like a leader or in the best interest of the town. You did not need any protection at all, and in fact the more I think about your little stunt is actually taking votes away from more qualified candidates like randombum and Ghar.


You are acting VERY selfish and I just can't stop repeating it. You have offered no plan and you are pretty much saying "I'm a Detective, Mayor + Detective = win, vote for me".

People I URGE you to reconsider your votes for Empyrean, because he is NOT displaying good qualities we need as a Mayor or Pardoner.
[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.037
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 08:07 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 07:58 qrs wrote:
[QUOTE][url=#]Show nested quote +[/url]
On March 19 2008 07:54 Ace wrote:
Also guys, I don't think we need to reveal a bodyguard. Whoever wins mayor will undoubtedly be checked up on by a Detective or a Jack, and if found Mafia will be turned out ASAP. If things are quiet, we can be sure as heck that they must be innocent.

The Mayor will be the mouthpiece of "the committee" (Bodyguards + Mayor)
[/QUOTE]
The problem with that in a nutshell is that you are forcing all the detectives to use one of their two "is-he-Mafia" questions. (If one does not, how do we know that all of them will not?) Surely it's better to save those questions for when we can use them better, and out a single bodyguard (who can be protected or fake-protected).[/QUOTE]

I would rather have the DTs use their abilities to verify the Mayor and easing the conscience of the Bodyguards and allowing the Town to start off on a good foot.

I also hope people are looking at ahrara's last post. Do not jump to conclusion's people - there is no strong evidence pointing to anyone at all right now. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.038
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 08:13 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 07:58 Empyrean wrote:
1. Yes. I am acting very selfishly. It still benefits the town to guarantee that I'm a protected position.
2. I support your plan. I probably should have made that more clear.

Think about it from a mafia standpoint: If I truly were mafia roleclaiming to be detective, once the election is over and under your plan, the detectives reveal their clues (not publically, of course), it'll be obvious that I wasn't a detective. So why would the mafia risk such a scenario?

Quick edit.[/QUOTE]

Ok I'll think about it from a Mafia standpoint:

1.) If you are Mafia and you don't win Mayor you could always get away with false claiming for a while if the Mayor isn't good enough to break that trend early
2.)If you are Mafia, you are hoping you do win the election and that by the time you really are investigated things are out of whack.

Essentially by the point part 2 comes up, if you were Mayor the Town loses a Mayor, you hope the BGs are in disarray, and any Detective or Jack that says you are Guilty will be labeled as scum or a traitor and won't be killed at night to keep the suspicions on them.

Honestly, the more you post about reasons to be Mayor the more I keep thinking about past games I've played and how people have tried stuff like this to pull one over the eyes of the town. Even if you were caught fast, the damage to the town would be sickening. You'd take up a valuable night spot, and a lot of active, smart players would be dead on the first night.

And as of now, you are not acting intelligent enough to be Mayor or Pardoner. I don't care what anyone says about last game, this game is showing that your selfish nature and by any means necessary attitude is not good for the Town.period.[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.038
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 08:25 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 08:21 LucasWoJ wrote:
Same for you Ace, but I voted for Empyrean because of his detective role.[/QUOTE]

None of us can prove that he is the Detective. Basically, it's all going off of his wording and that we should trust him. That is a MAJOR problem for the Town. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.038
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 08:29 Ace wrote:Empyrean, your posts are not convincing at all. Sorry, but really like you stated it's an act of blind faith which by itself isn't a bad thing - but claiming that you are a Detective early in the game when it can not be verified hurts the town.

You do realize this don't you?[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.039
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 08:42 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 08:30 Empyrean wrote:
[QUOTE]
On March 19 2008 08:25 Ace wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 08:21 LucasWoJ wrote:
Same for you Ace, but I voted for Empyrean because of his detective role.[/QUOTE]

None of us can prove that he is the Detective. Basically, it's all going off of his wording and that we should trust him. That is a MAJOR problem for the Town. [/QUOTE]

My problem with your candidacy is that the same thing could apply. You could be mafia as well, and all we have is your word. I'm basically going to be adopting a similar plan, so why not vote for the candidate who actually has a role? (Of course, you may as well.)

Also, I don't agree with the bodyguard plan qrs posted wholly - if the mayor were mafia, he could have a mafia member "reveal" that he was a bodyguard, and then the mafia would know the player's jobs/plan/etc., as well as waste a significant amount of paramedic protection.

That's why I think that we should investigate any person who claims bodyguard first.

But seriously.

If I'm elected, just get other detectives to check my role. The mafia will certainly fake some detectives, but I have ways around that which I can't reveal at the moment because it would compromise the method.[/QUOTE]

Obviously ANY of us could be Mafia, stating that isn't going to help figure out anything. The problem I have with you being Mayor is you never offered any kind of plan until today when Ghar and myself posted stuff and starting getting votes - and you were here last night so you saw the original plan Ghar posted and my comments. Even if you somehow missed it - you never revealed that you had a plan until we questioned your candidacy.

Voting for a candidate based on a supposed role has NO BENEFIT for the Town. Surely, someone as smart as yourself would have realized that and instead run on the basis of well - being smart, knowing what to do, experience. a plan, something. You did something extremely selfish, and I hate to say it but if you are elected Mayor or even Pardoner we are in a bad spot at the start of the game. Selfish people are horrible for the town - Detectives that won't come forward with critical evidence because they fear death, Medics that refuse to actually protect people that are pretty much a sure fire kill for Mafia, Vets that don't post or contribute at all and instead only vote which means they draw no attention to themselves.

Also you are CLEARLY not READING. If you looked at both my plan and qrs's plan you'd realize that the Mayor CANT DO THAT without getting into bad situation. If they false claim the Mayor is a goner, and out of the possible claimers the Town has a sure fire list of suspects which contains a Mafiaso and the detectives are easily going to investigate them.

I seriously cant believe you are acting in the best interest of the town when you wont even read other posts that suggest plans of action carefully. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.039
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 08:46 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 08:41 HeRoS)Pink wrote:
Well even if empyrean is telling a lie he's more clean than Ace (for me), Ace was defending Ghar's point of view (another candidate) + Ghar have clues against him, and the mafia has probably sent 2 candidates for the mayor's position and that could be the reason why Ghar was ready to give up his votes to Ace [QUOTE][url=#]Show nested quote +[/url]
On March 19 2008 01:28 Ghar wrote:
For people that might have missed my plans as mayor, the link is in my profile page.
And I support Ace. Don't know if he's towny or not, but we think alike. So should I end up not getting enough votes, Ace would make a nice alternative if we need to combine votes to win.[/QUOTE]
Why would he do that if he really wants to be the mayor? Cuz they both think alike? I dont think so, they had almost the same plan which is another coincidence. So Don't start voting for Ace because he's accusing Empyrean of being too much unsafe for the town.
-Pink[/QUOTE]

I'm defending him because I think he's posting very logical examples of ways to help the Town, and while I can't 100% verify him being innocent, I know when I see something that helps the Town.

And Empyrean isn't helping the Town, in fact he is adding a lot of confusion to this election which is something we do not need as a Town. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.039
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 08:49 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 08:44 HotZhot wrote:

P.S2: Ace you seem to want the mayor position alot, I wonder why...[/QUOTE]

Because I know I'm good enough to help the Town win in that position. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.040
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 08:51 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 08:48 HotZhot wrote:
He is the new Tracil IMO, are you Tracil Ace? would fit if he got mafia rol, lol[/QUOTE]

hahaha look at my profile - been here since 2002.

I'm NOT the new Tracil [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.040
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 09:02 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 08:57 Kau wrote:
Ace:

About your Bodyguard plan, what stops a mafia mayor from pming each actual bodyguard with a list that is something like:

mafia 1
mafia 2
mafia 3
bodyguard #

Each actual bodyguard would get a pm back from each of the fake mafia-bodyguards and they wouldn't know.

Then once the mayor gets checked by a detective, couldn't there be fake mafia-detectives that state that the mayor is innocent?[/QUOTE]

They can't because all the other Bodyguards that didn't get a PM would know something is wrong. In the event that they do that, it just helps the town because we can just apply all clues and DT/Jack power to that list of suspects and catch the Mafia asap.

No fake detective is going to spring forward and state the Mayor is innocent because they run the risk at having a real detective also step forward and once again we are back to place where we have confirmed a situation with at least 1 suspect as Mafia (because someone is lying) and a sure fire Mafia lynching.

[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.040
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 09:07 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 09:04 Empyrean wrote:
Especially since once the real bodyguards complain that they didn't get a PM, other mafia can as well.[/QUOTE]

And if the Mayor is innocent he'd (which would be confirmed by the DTs silence) then those stupid Mafia that tried to geek the Town would be caught when the Mayor never mentions them on his list.

If any Mafia member false claims they'd be caught red handed fast because this plan does not use 1 person as the word of trust - it uses several with a self checking scheme.

Continue to try and find more holes in it, this is interesting and fun. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.041
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 09:12 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 09:04 qrs wrote:

Edit: @ Ace: He's saying that every bodyguard would get a PM. Their PM would list Mafia members as bodyguards. Each bodyguard's PM would list (the same) fake bodyguards as their colleagues. None of the bodyguards would know the difference.[/QUOTE]

They'd still be caught. Ok let's look at like this:


Scenario 1:

There are 7 bodyguards total. 2 Mafia members "fake" PM the BG's with a Mafia Mayor who also sends out the PM.

We will know how many BGs are there when the elections are over. The Mafia can't leave 2 of the real Bodyguards off the list because the 2 that didn't get a PM would speak up. They can't just add an extra 2 to the PM because any BG getting a PM from the Mayor with 9 names obviously means the Mayor is clearly not thinking straight and is fishy.

Scenario 2:


There are 7 bodyguards total. 2 Mafia members "fake" PM the BG's with an Innocent Mayor who also sends out the PM.

The PMs from the Mayor don't match those 2 "fake" PMs. Even better, the names of those 2 fakers never even appear in the Mayor's original PM and they just outted themselves as Mafia for a pathetic chance at confusion.

How can the Mafia possibly get away with faking any of it without drawing attention to their members? [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.041
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 09:16 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 09:11 qrs wrote:
[QUOTE][url=#]Show nested quote +[/url]
On March 19 2008 09:10 Ghar wrote:
What Ace meant was the real bodyguards would see it strange that they got a PM from Chuiu telling them they're bodyguard, but not from the mayor who might have left them out when PMing the bodyguards about each other.

Ace's plan = Bodyguard gets 2 PMs, 1 from Chuiu, and 1 from the Mayor telling him who the other bodyguards are. The number has to add up, anybody guard that didn't get a PM from the mayor, stands up and speaks out.[/QUOTE]

You guys aren't understanding Kau's point. The real bodyguards would ALL get PMs from the mafioso mayor. The PMs would be lies, but they would all get them.[/QUOTE]

Remember the other part of the plan - the Detectives. If a Mafia Mayor sent those PMs he'd be revealed by the next day. So the BGs would know something is not right once he's found out.

The thing is, any tampering with this plan means that a Mafia member has to come out of hiding to do it. And once things don't add up, we have a list of suspects to investigate and a good place to start off. I'm SURE Mafia members will try and tamper with it, and if I'm Mayor I'll be waiting for them. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.041
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 09:29 Ace wrote:I'm honestly not comfortable with Empyrean even being Pardoner. His logic is not adding up. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.042
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 09:43 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 09:32 Kau wrote:


Ace, I don't see how scenario 1 would happen at all. Unless I don't understand how the game works (which is a definite possibility), this is how I see it using your numbers.

What everyone knows:
There are 7 bodyguards.
Only the mayor knows which 7 people are bodyguards.

Now, we assume that the mayor is also mafia, so he can coordinate with other mafia members.

Since he knows who each bodyguard is, he will send each of the 7 bodyguards a pm. Each pm will have 7 people in it: 6 mafia and 1 bodyguard. Each bodyguard gets pm'ed back by the mafia members (6 different pm's for each bodyguard) and so they believe there are 7 bodyguards. No bodyguards are left out. Each list sent contains 7 people. Each bodyguard recieves 6 confirmation pm's.[/QUOTE]

If this Does happen the Mafia has then implicated 7 of their own Mafia members because:

1.) The DTs investigated the Mayor and find out he is MAFIA
2.) Once this is revealed, all the BGs speak out about the PMs they received and not only are the names tallied, the common names in PMs that are fishy get investigated first

For that hole to work, it assumes that we have a Mafia Mayor and that no Detective investigates them. That would never happen.[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.042
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 09:47 Ace wrote:And to further clarify this is how the self-checking works:

Bodyguards are checked by each other and Mayor with the PMs
Mayor is checked by Detectives

Detectives stay silent if the Mayor is legit, and speak up if he is Mafia

If ANY Detective speaks up against the Mayor and we can't decide whether or not who to believe, we go to the ultimatum approach - just lynch the DT first and if he is telling the truth the Mayor is Mafia. Boom - Mafia Mayor gone by the second day.

If you see any flaws in the self-checking scheme, also point that out so we can discuss.
[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.043
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 10:06 Ace wrote:Guys remember all your "holes" are assuming a Mafia Mayor who won't be checked by Detectives - that's a very far stretch.

[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.043
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 10:15 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 10:10 Kau wrote:
Guys, the reason I brought up this hole was because I didn't know that the mayor could be proven mafia or innocent. Since Ace cleared it up, sending fake pms as a mafia mayor will just get them killed.[/QUOTE]

no problem, I am hoping people find holes so we can clear up any confusion about the plan and also find solutions where they are needed. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.044
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 10:25 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 10:16 qrs wrote:
Much as I hate to admit it, I believe my plan is flawed. As per Kau's post, a Mafia can identify himself as a bodyguard, and all the bodyguards will believe he is telling the truth. The Bodyguard plan is not failsafe after all. Unless someone comes up with something new, we will have to waste some detective power as Ghar has been saying.[/QUOTE]

Read my self checking scheme.

Sure we waste some Detective Power, but we get a much needed confirmation of the Mayor's status.

An added benefit is that once the Detectives know the Mayor is innocent, he can then PM him and reveal himself.

[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.044
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 10:35 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 10:30 Kau wrote:

Hmm... Actually, what happens in the case the mayor is mafia, and a mafia-detective points him out along with real detective. Would we have to lynch both to be sure?[/QUOTE]

Yes, but another alternative is to apply clues to both of them and find out which fits best and go from there. If we make a mistake and lynch one of them innocently, then the other is sure to be Mafia.

When that testimony is resolved we will also know the status of the Mayor. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.045
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 11:43 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 11:26 BlindAlbino wrote:
Well hopefully we can get a good mayor/pardoner this time around. Tracil was completely useless last game, and the whole lynching FS thing was a joke. If we are gonna elect someone, has to be someone that people actually like so we dont get another bandwagon lynch.

I vote Ace for Mayor.[/QUOTE]


[url=http://teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?currentpage=6&topic_id=68177]http://teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?currentpage=6&topic_id=68177[/url][/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.045
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 11:58 Ace wrote:Needless to say I'm very,very uncomfortable with Empyrean even being Pardoner nevertheless Mayor.

Seriously people that are voting for Empyrean what exactly are you basing this vote off of?

The fact that he played well last round even though he was Mafia?
The wrong thinking that since he was Mafia last round that he surely can't be Mafia this round?

Those 2 points are clearly not going to help choose a Good Mayor. But that isn't my problem with his candidacy - this is:

He role claimed Detective.

This one action brings out a major problem. At this point we can't verify that Empyrean is legit as a DT. We pretty much have to go on blind trust, and I'm begging those of you who have played this game before to recall what happens when we act on blind faith. Nothing good will come out of it. Why would someone claim a key role like that early, saying that they fear they would be killed at night? If he really was acting in the best interest of the town, he would realize that as a key target the Medics would protect him and how that simple action puts a spin on the Mafia killing power. But he went the selfish route.

Even more so, Empyrean never had a plan until myself and Ghar put plans up. He never even read the original plans and even got qsr's plan analyzed WRONG. How can this guy be a good candidate even though he didn't read many of the posts that are the main focus of discussion right now?

But besides all of that, the final nail in the coffin is the fact that everyone says Empyrean is a good player.

As any good mafia player will tell you, role claiming is a great strategy - only when done at the right time.

The very beginning of the game when nothing can be proved, Empyrean an acclaimed good player role claims. He even admits that it can't be proved but we should just trust him.

Think this out guys. A GOOD player that has not acted on logic, has not posted a plan till later in voting, and is running on a platform of "trust me based on my actions last game" which have no bearing on his status this game. HOW is this going to help us survive?
He has not done anything so far that shows me or many others he is capable of acting in the best interest of the town and has even admitted it. Empyrean is smart - and he certainly isn't running on a platform that shows that. It's a trust platform, and right now the best thing we can do is vote based on plans of action and leadership NOT trust - because that can't be proven until later.

Stop voting for him. I may have a slight lead right now, but by tomorrow who knows how the voting will stack up. I may even never get the Mayor position. I'm not comfortable with a guy who's acting selfishly and irrationally on Day 1 in any position of power. Even if he is Pardoner I'd be worried.

Once I again I'm begging you guys to reconsider.





[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.046
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 12:15 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 12:07 JeeJee wrote:


as for the other candidates..meh. i was keeping an updated excel sheet of ALL the people, who they vote for, who supports them, who they support, who accuses them, who they accuse, because it gets oh-so-easy to keep track of people
(i was reading thread @ work and felt like doing that)

then i get home and flip vanilla, so i suddenly get far too lazy to do that =/ maybe someone else can take over, i'll send you what i have right now (it goes up to page 35ish i think?)
oh and it has the list of all the people, their sigs, and potential themes used for clues, ordered by likelihood, since I think that getting a list of clues that could apply to a certain person, then running through the day post to see if any in fact DO match, is a far better way than vice versa (running through the post to see the people they might match to)
someone with a lot of time (randombum?) wanna do this? [IMG]/mirror/smilies/puh2.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

I've also got 2 notepads with info of stuff myself [IMG]/mirror/smilies/smile.gif[/IMG][/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.046
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 12:16 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 12:11 Empyrean wrote:
[QUOTE][url=#]Show nested quote +[/url]
On March 19 2008 12:07 JeeJee wrote:
people who vote for empyrean crack me up. if he's legit, the best he can do for us is verify the mayor then get shot by mafia, because there's no reason to vote for him at all, since saboteur will juts be laughin at us (realize that he had nobody to roleblock until empyrean went "im dt lulz!") if we elect him
[/QUOTE]

I PM'd Ace something. Don't worry.[/QUOTE]

I got your PM, I'll respond later when I'm back from going out.

[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.046
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 12:21 Ace wrote:[IMG]/mirror/smilies/frown.gif[/IMG]
[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.046
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 12:25 Ace wrote:my frown was in response to OpZ's posts, I have no clue where he is going lol[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.047
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 12:43 Ace wrote:don't jump to any conclusions just yet guys[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.047
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 12:56 Ace wrote:Most likely anyone who has a clue pointing to them won't be lynched the first day if I got Mayor unless there is some very strong evidence against them, and even then I might not do it.

If I HAVE to lynch someone though, I already have an idea of how to go about it. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.048
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 12:59 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 12:57 ahrara_ wrote:
I see clues as largely a means of supporting a suspicion, not the beginning of one. Like I said, if you've been following the thread, there have been people who've done some weird things that warrant suspicions. Nothing for sure, but plenty of starting points not based on clues.[/QUOTE]

This is something that needs constant repeating.[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.048
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 13:02 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 13:00 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
[QUOTE][url=#]Show nested quote +[/url]
On March 19 2008 12:59 Ace wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 12:57 ahrara_ wrote:
I see clues as largely a means of supporting a suspicion, not the beginning of one. Like I said, if you've been following the thread, there have been people who've done some weird things that warrant suspicions. Nothing for sure, but plenty of starting points not based on clues.[/QUOTE]

This is something that needs constant repeating.[/QUOTE]

You seriously do remind me of Tracil last game. You just don't say "scum" as every second word.[/QUOTE]

I'm being careful about throwing that word around, I don't want to start any false bandwagons by accident.

I haven't even accused anyone yet lol[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.048
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 13:06 Ace wrote:I won't share it yet.

And yes it possibly can end up getting one of my voters killed, but I highly doubt it.

And if it does look like I'm going to win for sure, I'll post the strat on purpose as insurance that it works.[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.048
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 13:06 Ace wrote:In fact I have 2 ideas that I may use at the same time.[/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.048
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 13:09 Ace wrote:randombum, remember that I played in that short, SC based game last time. I was the one who DENOUNCED the random number generator.

I've got a much better idea this time around. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.048
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 13:10 Ace wrote:[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 13:09 qrs wrote:
[QUOTE][url=#]Show nested quote +[/url]
On March 19 2008 13:00 ShaLLoW[baY] wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 12:59 Ace wrote:
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 12:57 ahrara_ wrote:
I see clues as largely a means of supporting a suspicion, not the beginning of one. Like I said, if you've been following the thread, there have been people who've done some weird things that warrant suspicions. Nothing for sure, but plenty of starting points not based on clues.[/QUOTE]

This is something that needs constant repeating.[/QUOTE]

You seriously do remind me of Tracil last game. You just don't say "scum" as every second word.[/QUOTE]
QFT. You have said some things that made sense, Ace, but you have also sounded fairly patronizing in many of your posts. At the end of the day, you haven't actually contributed that much more than anyone else. (I was taken by the bodyguard idea when you posted it, but Kau pointed out the flaw in it [as a standalone method].)[/QUOTE]

I can't help if I sound patronizing I guess?

We've already addressed the flaw, it was cleared up. If you've still got questions let me know asap, I'm about to leave here soon. [/QUOTE]

Posted in night7/main_page.049
[QUOTE]On March 19 2008 15:18 Ace wrote:what the hell is <->, the bidirectional logic sign?[/QUOTE]

53. Ace (Mayor)
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53. Ace (Mayor)
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