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On November 30 2007 23:05 Snet wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2007 15:22 IdrA wrote:
see? that is whats fucked up about religion.
you're happy your friend died. what the fuck is wrong with you I agree with you, it's really depressing. But, whatever floats your boat, sorry your friend got killed.
yeah, this is a huge conflict between religion and logic..
Religion makes you think that way, and logic makes you think another
isnt life hard that way?
which way must we follow? the way we THINK is best?
humanity is confusing, and lost..
(this sounds really depressing, but it is really true)
What can we do?
JesusCruxRH is trying to make the best out of it,
while Snet and IdrA are mourning over deaths lost in this world
both ways are very understandable, and we can only pick one.. what can we choose?
I understand both your ways, cruxRH and Idra...
first.. to CruxRH : Do you really believe God actually put a place in her in heaven? do you actualy BELIEVE it? You dont know if she actually did, only her and God knows.. Dont be too sure, just pray, and hope for the best, God knows what to do, dont ever doubt that.
IdrA + Snet : You both probably know that this world is screwed up, all on the news theres word of terrorism, the end of the world, and diseases.. Why dont you see CruxRH's point of view, how hes happy for her to leave this world, because its so painful, and because leaving it makes misery all gone, and leaving her at peace, yes it sounds stupid that we're happy she died, but look between the words..
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Snet
United States3573 Posts
It's just a way for people to convince themselves it will all be ok; if they truly are happy their friend died then they need to get a shrink as soon as possible.
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On November 30 2007 15:22 IdrA wrote:
see? that is whats fucked up about religion.
you're happy your friend died. what the fuck is wrong with you
God, STFU already.
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I don't get it, should we be celebrating her death?
She must be really happy having tea with Jesus up in heaven lol.
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This is a tough topic to discuss. You mourn someones death but yet if you beleive she is in a better place which hell I hope there is a better place than this world, then I don't think there is a problem with this.
Idra seems not to be an opened minded person.
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whatver floats his boat. just as long as he keeps his nonsense away from the real world and real philosophy and real politics for that matter. haha
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Irregardless of your beliefs I can see who really doesn't have a heart.
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On December 01 2007 08:49 Dr.Kill-Joy wrote:
This is a tough topic to discuss. You mourn someones death but yet if you beleive she is in a better place which hell I hope there is a better place than this world, then I don't think there is a problem with this.
Idra seems not to be an opened minded person.
"we should all be open minded, but not so open minded our brains fall out"
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I am an atheist, too, but I really admire much of what Jesus is saying in this blog. Compassion undermines evil. Many times, maybe all the time, people who do wrong - even murder - are misguided, confused, and even broken in some way. We can shut them away, torture them, or kill them, but if there is a way to heal the confused person, to teach them love and compassion, then it is a tragedy to do otherwise. JesusCruxRH and the other Christians of his community show amazing love and compassion by embracing peace and healing instead of hate and the desire for revenge. If all people on Earth were more like this, the world would be vastly improved, whether populated by Christians or atheists. All this talk of logic is rather silly in this context.
Many times, what I think bothers atheists so much is the perception that Christians (and other religious people) are attacking them and acting out of hate and intolerance (which has often been true). Ironic then that in this thread, the opposite appears to be true.
It saddens me to see that so many atheists are seemingly more interested in showing off their "cold logic" and their "correctness" than showing compassion and empathy. What is more important?
At the end of the day, we are ALL just human beings, and we all have something in common, atheist or christian, gay or straight, male or female, young or old. We are all people and we all want to be happy and get by. Why not focus more on that and less on silly differences like what beliefs various people have about gods and the afterlife (or lack thereof)?
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On December 01 2007 17:19 nA.Inky wrote:
I am an atheist, too, but I really admire much of what Jesus is saying in this blog. Compassion undermines evil. Many times, maybe all the time, people who do wrong - even murder - are misguided, confused, and even broken in some way. We can shut them away, torture them, or kill them, but if there is a way to heal the confused person, to teach them love and compassion, then it is a tragedy to do otherwise. JesusCruxRH and the other Christians of his community show amazing love and compassion by embracing peace and healing instead of hate and the desire for revenge. If all people on Earth were more like this, the world would be vastly improved, whether populated by Christians or atheists. All this talk of logic is rather silly in this context.
Many times, what I think bothers atheists so much is the perception that Christians (and other religious people) are attacking them and acting out of hate and intolerance (which has often been true). Ironic then that in this thread, the opposite appears to be true.
It saddens me to see that so many atheists are seemingly more interested in showing off their "cold logic" and their "correctness" than showing compassion and empathy. What is more important?
At the end of the day, we are ALL just human beings, and we all have something in common, atheist or christian, gay or straight, male or female, young or old. We are all people and we all want to be happy and get by. Why not focus more on that and less on silly differences like what beliefs various people have about gods and the afterlife (or lack thereof)?
good post.
I wish all the guys who talk trash about religion all the time would just take a religious book (the bible or some other) and read it. Read it without presetting their mind to "Refuse" or "Deny" or "shut off."
Ignore the fact that the text is about God in which you dont believe. Just try to see the message behind the words. Its really a positive one. Just try to forget all you know about anything, imagine you are a child reading it the first time. Only after you read it, then go back to your old self, and you'll see that you werent entirely right.
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niteReloaded: Thank you for the compliment.
I agree it is helpful to have an understanding of a religion before one criticizes it. That said, there is room to be critical of religion, and to the extent that religion (or anything else) promotes intolerance, hate, and violence, it should be criticized (peacefully). There is, in fact, much hate in the Bible, and much more hate has been encouraged because of the Bible. There is also a lot of wisdom and love in the Bible, and a lot of good things have been done because of it.
We must be careful not to criticize a religious person because of possible flaws in their religious text or general religion. We must treat each individual separately based on their personal outlook and practices.
My personal feeling is that we should encourage compassion, peace, and love in whatever we do, whether we are Christian, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, or atheistic. As JesusCruxRH seems, from what I've seen - and I don't claim to have seen all, to promote compassion and peace and love, I support him.
Nick / Inky
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On December 01 2007 17:19 nA.Inky wrote:
I am an atheist, too, but I really admire much of what Jesus is saying in this blog. Compassion undermines evil. Many times, maybe all the time, people who do wrong - even murder - are misguided, confused, and even broken in some way. We can shut them away, torture them, or kill them, but if there is a way to heal the confused person, to teach them love and compassion, then it is a tragedy to do otherwise. JesusCruxRH and the other Christians of his community show amazing love and compassion by embracing peace and healing instead of hate and the desire for revenge. If all people on Earth were more like this, the world would be vastly improved, whether populated by Christians or atheists. All this talk of logic is rather silly in this context.
sometimes it's impossible to "heal" murderers due to chemical imbalances in their brains that block out compassion. in the case of psychopaths, they are physically and biologically incapable of feeling empathy. should we treat psychopaths with compassion when they can't treat us the same?
Many times, what I think bothers atheists so much is the perception that Christians (and other religious people) are attacking them and acting out of hate and intolerance (which has often been true). Ironic then that in this thread, the opposite appears to be true.
What bothers me about religion is not that I feel attacked or threatened by it. It's that I feel it's a detrament to humanity on an individual and societal level. Indeed the opposite is true here, and that's not in the least bit ironic, because that's just the way we went about responding to RH. I'm emotionally bothered by his merciless, inhuman reaction to death. Is that wrong?
It saddens me to see that so many atheists are seemingly more interested in showing off their "cold logic" and their "correctness" than showing compassion and empathy. What is more important?
At the end of the day, we are ALL just human beings, and we all have something in common, atheist or christian, gay or straight, male or female, young or old. We are all people and we all want to be happy and get by. Why not focus more on that and less on silly differences like what beliefs various people have about gods and the afterlife (or lack thereof)?
Nay, it is us who have shown the most compassion in this case. I see no remorse in RH for the loss of his friend, no compassion or empathy. My response was one of bewilderment toward that fact. It's true that I attacked RH for his views. That's the only way I could possibly describe my reaction to his story.
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Meta: You raise a complicated issue. How do we treat those who can't be reformed? I have no good answer to that. Instead, I would say that it is my belief that many people who do wrong CAN be reformed, and that the best way to do that is through forgiveness and compassion.
Also, I would strongly question the idea that some people can't be reformed. Perhaps they cannot be, but we should not be so quick to decide that. My personal thinking is that people too easily fall back on the notion of "chemical imbalances" within the brain. My understanding is that the brain is far from understood. I feel that people point to chemical imbalances and personality disorders in the same way that people attributed strange or evil behavior to demon possession in the past. Is there such a thing as a chemical imbalance? Quite probably. On the other hand, there is some benefit to powerful interests if we dismiss many undesirable behaviors as medical in nature. For one, treatment is often profitable, and there is the advantage of not having to directly address the real underlying issues, which could be potentially very complicated.
I'm not arguing with you on your first point, just raising questions and concerns.
On your second point: you say you rail against religion because you feel it is detrimental to individuals and humanity. Many times throughout history, and on into the present, many religious people have felt that atheism or alternative faiths are detrimental to people and humanity, and many times the consequences of this view have been horrific. What someone else believes is not your problem or your business. How would you go about changing what people believe? Regulating them? Bashing them until they "come to their senses?" Either way, this seems highly problematic. If we all get along and respect each other, it hardly matters whether some of us believe in some magical sky deity while others do not. Right? So I prefer to focus on helping the cause of tolerance and compassion, rather than synchronizing everyone's beliefs with the modern paradigm.
I also do not see this lack of compassion you say JesusCruxRH has displayed. I do not want to put words into JCRH's mouth, but why not ask him: if it had been up to him, would this murder have taken place? Did it give him a sense of true joy that it happened? I would bet no in both cases. I also believe that the happiness he expresses is more philosophical or spiritual in nature - he thinks his friend has moved to a better place, and that, if true, is indeed a good thing. It may or may not be true, but it is what he believes, and that is his business. You don't agree? That's ok too. Anyway, his beliefs don't mean he does not miss her, or that he would have chosen for her to be killed. Again, I could be wrong, and I welcome JCRH to correct either of us, but I think you have to read between the lines of his words.
As I see it, there is no reason to attack anyone. Why would you want to go through life attacking people, Meta, when it is so much more pleasant to be at peace in the world?
Nick / Inky
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I would love for humanity to just "get along and respect each other", but the fact is that is not, and likely never will be, the case. As long as there are factions within humanity that prevent a person from distinguishing himself as anything other than a human, this is a far-off hope. I agree that bashing religious people for being religious is not the best way to go about this, and a great alternative would be well thought-out persuasion techniques to change them. However, I do not choose to take on the responsibility of persuasion, and will instead leave that to Richard Dawkins and the like.
Though I won't try to hide that I was attacking RH for his views, this stems very much from his posts in the past and on his previous account. My main goal in my post was to post my horrific disgust at how he handles death, with such an impromtu "I'm happy she's with God, time to move on" attitude.
The following is a specific response to your last remark.
I don't have any huge beef with Christianity as it is in the modern, western world, as a whole. I do, however, have a hatred for Islam and everything it stands for. Try to reason with a suicide bomber, why don't you. I can't be at peace when there are militant, empirical Muslims with access to nuclear weapons. Some things can't be peacefully resolved, and in this case, that's due to extremist Muslim theocracy.
What I do specifically dislike about Christianity is that moderate Christians forbid an open crtique of Islam because the subject of religion is so taboo. If we say "Islam is wrong and that is what we (the US) are at war with.", what's to stop Christianity from being next? Afterall, both religions are on the same logical grounds. What will you say if a new sun rises on the horizon over Los Angelas one morning, courtesy of Islamic Jihad. How can you be at peace with that possibility?
I think our goals are the same, Inky. We would both love for nothing more than to see a peaceful world, with every human being looking out for every other human being, but like I said, as the world is today, due in my opinion primarily to religion, greed, and opposed governments, that is an impossibility.
But this has absolutely nothing to do with RH's blog, of which I am still appalled.
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On December 02 2007 05:17 niteReloaded wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2007 17:19 nA.Inky wrote:
I am an atheist, too, but I really admire much of what Jesus is saying in this blog. Compassion undermines evil. Many times, maybe all the time, people who do wrong - even murder - are misguided, confused, and even broken in some way. We can shut them away, torture them, or kill them, but if there is a way to heal the confused person, to teach them love and compassion, then it is a tragedy to do otherwise. JesusCruxRH and the other Christians of his community show amazing love and compassion by embracing peace and healing instead of hate and the desire for revenge. If all people on Earth were more like this, the world would be vastly improved, whether populated by Christians or atheists. All this talk of logic is rather silly in this context.
Many times, what I think bothers atheists so much is the perception that Christians (and other religious people) are attacking them and acting out of hate and intolerance (which has often been true). Ironic then that in this thread, the opposite appears to be true.
It saddens me to see that so many atheists are seemingly more interested in showing off their "cold logic" and their "correctness" than showing compassion and empathy. What is more important?
At the end of the day, we are ALL just human beings, and we all have something in common, atheist or christian, gay or straight, male or female, young or old. We are all people and we all want to be happy and get by. Why not focus more on that and less on silly differences like what beliefs various people have about gods and the afterlife (or lack thereof)?
good post. I wish all the guys who talk trash about religion all the time would just take a religious book (the bible or some other) and read it. Read it without presetting their mind to "Refuse" or "Deny" or "shut off." Ignore the fact that the text is about God in which you dont believe. Just try to see the message behind the words. Its really a positive one. Just try to forget all you know about anything, imagine you are a child reading it the first time. Only after you read it, then go back to your old self, and you'll see that you werent entirely right.
nobody presets their minds to reject or deny a holy book, it is usually the opposite way. Most of us are brought up in a religious community and have to ESCAPE from the brainwashing. You think I was born saying "damn it, the bible does say some pretty stupid shit sometimes" no i was raised to believe it word by word and through CRITICAL THINKING decided that it was not worth to base my life on a book which has no tenability in the modern world.
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Meta, I'm reminded of Ghandi's famous quote: "be the change you want to see in the world - my life is my message." If you do value peace, and I'm glad to hear that you say you do, then you should live peacefully. I have never once said that peace and compassion will come easily, or come at all. Peace and compassion are wonderful causes to work for, whether they will ever be achieved or not. So in this spirit, while I disagree with many religious ideas, I try to find common ground with religious people, and where that is not possible, I try to at least be at peace and maintain respect. JesusCruxRH's views may seem bizarre and illogical to you (well, I'm sure they do, and to many others here) but that is no reason to attack him - something you admitted to doing.
As to your comments on Islam, I'll say this. ANY viewpoint that is taken to a great extreme is dangerous. Capitalism has been taken too far in this country, with horrible consequences. Socialism has been taken too far, with horrible consequences. Christianity has been taken too far, with horrible consequences. Technology has been taken too far, with horrible consequences. And I think some people take atheism too far, although I'm not sure how bad the consequences have been yet (although we could bring up the Soviet Union and such, but I don't know the particulars of how religious folks were treated in that situation.) The danger is in taking oneself and one's views too seriously, and then acting out of hate and intolerance for those who differ. This is a big world, and a big universe, big enough for many different belief systems and ways of doing things. No? More useful to build a good life and live with love and compassion than to focus on how much other people's ideas upset you.
As to Islam being a danger to the U.S., I believe this is mostly propaganda. The real issue is that the United States is a terrorist nation and has angered many people around the world with its immoral, greedy actions. Does that justify terrorism against us? No. But I think that an approach rooted in love and fairness is key to addressing the problems of terrorism. Of course that largely means the U.S. has to undergo EXTREME changes, and the U.S. does not want to do that. But like you say, we are getting WAAAAAAAAAAAY off topic! 
Peace.
Nick / Inky
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Meta - you don't know me and it takes a lot of gall to assume you know what I feel about my friend's death. You have no idea what it would be like to have someone close to you murdered, then instead of having people supporting you they question whether you truly loved them - otherwise you would not be doing it.
You judge murderers for their inability to show compassion, I say take a good look at yourself first.
Thanks Jibba, Inky, etc.
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On December 01 2007 16:08 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On December 01 2007 08:49 Dr.Kill-Joy wrote:
This is a tough topic to discuss. You mourn someones death but yet if you beleive she is in a better place which hell I hope there is a better place than this world, then I don't think there is a problem with this.
Idra seems not to be an opened minded person. "we should all be open minded, but not so open minded our brains fall out"
go post in another place then and stop going into fucking tantrums every time RH makes a blog, you definatelly cross the line here, someone died and you have not even a minimun respect for him or the situation you just care to get your point across offending whoever has different beliefs than you.
HE is not HAPPY than he died, you dont have to be smart to figure that one out. He is just relieve and happy than he knows after all he will enjoy a better life.
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You know exactly why you post this stuff on this blog. I can deliberately say that you actually want the attention you are getting for posting stuff like "i pray for the killer" and "she died but she is with god now"
You know exactly that this forum is very anti religious, yet you continue to stir up the issue. Why don't you just drop it. Free speech and all, but you want us to post on your blogs or you would have gone to a christian forum where you are much better appreciated. Just as any atheist would go to the Richarddawkins forums to talk about atheism. Or a Nazi would go to his own forum.
These ideas are not maimstream and all you get out of your blog is controversy which I assume is what you are after.
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On December 02 2007 14:32 Rev0lution wrote:
You know exactly why you post this stuff on this blog. I can deliberately say that you actually want the attention you are getting for posting stuff like "i pray for the killer" and "she died but she is with god now"
You know exactly that this forum is very anti religious, yet you continue to stir up the issue. Why don't you just drop it. Free speech and all, but you want us to post on your blogs or you would have gone to a christian forum where you are much better appreciated. Just as any atheist would go to the Richarddawkins forums to talk about atheism. Or a Nazi would go to his own forum.
These ideas are not maimstream and all you get out of your blog is controversy which I assume is what you are after.
You are an idiot, period 
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