On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
On May 27 2022 15:57 xsnac wrote:
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
it's called being brainwashed. they are all brainwashed.
An armed population should not exist, no reason in 2022 for having one, or at least I don't see one.
Also, can you imagine they argue about that stupid constitution they have? Some dude wrote a paper 233 years ago and they still do mental gymnastics about how he was right. No wonder they take the bible ad litteram too. Fking hell brother.
I wonder, will Americans ever learn that they can be wrong too? It got to a point where it is pure hubris in the detriment of everything.
In the real world America as a country is the most successful experiment ever attempted. The reason we are so successful is because we do take our constitution seriously. We do not succeed because we are smarter or taller or harder working or because we have more natural resources or better weather. We succeed because we respect our constitution. While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right. The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is. While the Fascists and Communists restricted religious worship, it was the American Bible thumpers who showed up to rescue everyone. Do not be so dismissive towards those who take the Bible seriously.
When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic. This sort of thing seems highly unlikely to younger folks, but I lived through dictatorships in Europe. Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China.
By entrusting your security to American politicians you are showing a degrees of naivete and subservience that we are unwilling to. Politicians are politicians and American politicians are no better than the rest of the world. The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power.
Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to.
The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself.
You may be concerned that guns cause the murders. The data do not back you up.
Non-Hispanic White Americans are the most well armed people in the world, but their murder rate is quite low. It currently sits around 2 per 100,000. Our most populous neighbor, Mexico, sits at 29. The EU sits at 3. So non-Hispanic White Americans commit murders at lower rates than Europeans despite being far better armed.
Guns are not causing the murders. American states and cities have in the past been granted broad powers to restrict gun ownership. During the 1970s - 1990s Washington, DC mostly banned fire arms and watched in terror as its murder rate became the worst in the nation. Meanwhile, rural America, which has the highest per capita gun ownership in the world, has an extremely low murder rate.
If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect.
Are you a troll or are you actually delusional?
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers."
This is a false statement since a true functional democracy makes sure it stays a democracy.
I can speak with experience because I come from the country Norway that is consistently ranked as the most functional democratic country in the world, right next to other Scandinavian countries and majority of European countries rank highest on this index.
In 2020 your country was ranked 36th as a democracy in the world quite low for a country you claim to be "The greatest country in the world"
"While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right."
How is this relevant to anything other then the need you feel to boast about how noble America was during WW1 and 2? Many more countries then just America helped make sure we won WW1 and 2 it was not only America that made that victory happen.
"The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is."
Europe has mass immigration as well and no-one wants to emigrate what's your point ?
The living standard in Europe is far higher then in USA.
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic."
Big words coming from a country that just had an attempted coup to insert a dictator called Trump.
And to claim that we have "disarmed" ourselves is a complete lie. Europe can defend itself extremely well and as I stated above has the most functional democracies in the world unlike your country.
I don't understand where you get this delusion that we are helpless, America is an important part of avoiding war yes but if a war did happen its not like Europe could not defend itself this is complete nonsense. America needs Europe just as much as we need America. Get off your high horse, Europeans helped build your country so stop trying to talk to us as if we owe you a god damn thing. Without us you don't exist in the first place.
"Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China."
Okay first of all Romania became a democracy via majority UNARMED PROTESTS, the masses were NOT ARMED and they still managed to turn their country into a democracy without the use of guns so please stop talking about things you know absolutely nothing about.Riot police were brought in to stop the masses but in many cases ended up joining the protests instead.
And of course there is always a risk someone will try to gain power like in China and Russia, but that's why you build a functional democratic system built on TRUST and not GUNS.
"The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power."
You actually think a armed public can stop a politician from accumulating to much power?.
You actually believe armed civilians would be able to do anything against the professional army of your country? Or do you actually believe no politician currently would dare to "step out of line" and try to get more power because some of you are armed?
You truly live in your own little world don't you? You being armed has absolutely no influence on power politics in your country.
"Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to."
Why do you think we would flee? wait, are you calling us cowards now?
"The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself."
Yeah , imagine if that kid didn't have access to guns he would maybe have had a knife and no one would have died, or maybe it wouldn't not have happened at all because getting a gun would have been so hard for him he would have been picked up by the system and it would never have been allowed to happen.
With super strict gun laws and full control of gun circulation the government can control the risk of these things happening, with full free access to guns there will never be a solution to this problem EVER.
"If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect."
What does this have to do with private citizens being armed or not? These are nations you talk about this would be a military conflict it has nothing to do with private citizens having arms at all.
If my country was under attack any combat able person would get armed immediately.
Also where do you get the notion that you could do with us as you will even if you wanted too, you understand that you would never ever be able to touch a European country because of alliances within Europe and NATO?
You also understand that for the USA to break ties with Europe would be the single most stupidest thing your country could do?
Anyway this is all way off topic I just wanted to correct your stupidity because you are clearly in need of some real education.
I seem to have touched a nerve. I have nothing against Norway. We want Europe as our allies, but are unwilling to disarm for you. If you would like to live in a society without firearms, then please transform your own country or move to a country that bans firearms. We will continue to own ours.
Your own country's military expenditures are exemplary. I believe you spend more per capita on the military than any other country in Europe. I was certainly not trying to call out Norway as a country. Norway is a wonderful country.
Romania's conversion to Democracy was not some peaceful protest. The military literally executed Nicolae Ceaușescu and his wife on camera with a firing squad. So the revolution consisted of those with guns asserting themselves. When you live in a country where the people cannot own firearms then you are subject to the whims of your military. If you believe that people can peacefully remain independent of an armed government then consider what we have witnessed happening in Hong Kong in recent years. Umbrellas will not win you self government. To be fair I doubt if an armed Hong Kong could have preserved its independence against China either. They are just too small. Life and war are team sports and that is why I am thankful to have most of Europe on my team.
Trump was not a dictator. He was a democratic politician who won one election, served for exactly the length of his 4 year term, lost a re-election and then left office. But some day there may be a president who attempts to stay in power after losing an election and he may have the backing of the military and that day we will need our firearms. I hope it never comes to that.
On June 01 2022 23:54 AmericanUmlaut wrote: I've lived about half my life in Germany, and I honestly couldn't identify any meaningful way in which my freedoms are more restricted here.
There is no freedom to choose your basic health insurance plan in Canada. There is in the USA. Got a knee problem that doesn't put you in a wheel chair? Good luck getting an MRI in Canada. As a result, people drive to Buffalo to pay cash for an MRI. Need cataract surgery that has almost completed blinded you? My grandma can't get it in Canada. She paid cash for a cataract procedure in NY so she can now go outside at night. I had to drive her to-and-from the clinic 4 times. For her final assessment recovery visit she actually drove on her own. My grandma can drive again!
We were in the unique position to choose between OHIP and Aetna. Most Canadians do not have that choice. We chose Aetna. Unlike 95%+ Canadians .... we had a choice.
The freedoms in the USA make Canada a better place to live.
On June 01 2022 23:54 AmericanUmlaut wrote: I've lived about half my life in Germany, and I honestly couldn't identify any meaningful way in which my freedoms are more restricted here.
There is no freedom to choose your basic health insurance plan in Canada. There is in the USA. Got a knee problem that doesn't put you in a wheel chair? Good luck getting an MRI in Canada. As a result, people drive to Buffalo to pay cash for an MRI. Need cataract surgery that has almost completed blinded you? My grandma can't get it in Canada. She paid cash for a cataract procedure in NY so she can now go outside at night. I had to drive her to-and-from the clinic 4 times. For her final assessment recovery visit she actually drove on her own. My grandma can drive again!
We were in the unique position to choose between OHIP and Aetna. Most Canadians do not have that choice. We chose Aetna. Unlike 95%+ Canadians .... we had a choice.
The freedoms in the USA make Canada a better place to live.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
On May 27 2022 15:57 xsnac wrote:
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
it's called being brainwashed. they are all brainwashed.
An armed population should not exist, no reason in 2022 for having one, or at least I don't see one.
Also, can you imagine they argue about that stupid constitution they have? Some dude wrote a paper 233 years ago and they still do mental gymnastics about how he was right. No wonder they take the bible ad litteram too. Fking hell brother.
I wonder, will Americans ever learn that they can be wrong too? It got to a point where it is pure hubris in the detriment of everything.
In the real world America as a country is the most successful experiment ever attempted. The reason we are so successful is because we do take our constitution seriously. We do not succeed because we are smarter or taller or harder working or because we have more natural resources or better weather. We succeed because we respect our constitution. While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right. The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is. While the Fascists and Communists restricted religious worship, it was the American Bible thumpers who showed up to rescue everyone. Do not be so dismissive towards those who take the Bible seriously.
When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic. This sort of thing seems highly unlikely to younger folks, but I lived through dictatorships in Europe. Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China.
By entrusting your security to American politicians you are showing a degrees of naivete and subservience that we are unwilling to. Politicians are politicians and American politicians are no better than the rest of the world. The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power.
Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to.
The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself.
You may be concerned that guns cause the murders. The data do not back you up.
Non-Hispanic White Americans are the most well armed people in the world, but their murder rate is quite low. It currently sits around 2 per 100,000. Our most populous neighbor, Mexico, sits at 29. The EU sits at 3. So non-Hispanic White Americans commit murders at lower rates than Europeans despite being far better armed.
Guns are not causing the murders. American states and cities have in the past been granted broad powers to restrict gun ownership. During the 1970s - 1990s Washington, DC mostly banned fire arms and watched in terror as its murder rate became the worst in the nation. Meanwhile, rural America, which has the highest per capita gun ownership in the world, has an extremely low murder rate.
If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect.
Are you a troll or are you actually delusional?
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers."
This is a false statement since a true functional democracy makes sure it stays a democracy.
I can speak with experience because I come from the country Norway that is consistently ranked as the most functional democratic country in the world, right next to other Scandinavian countries and majority of European countries rank highest on this index.
In 2020 your country was ranked 36th as a democracy in the world quite low for a country you claim to be "The greatest country in the world"
"While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right."
How is this relevant to anything other then the need you feel to boast about how noble America was during WW1 and 2? Many more countries then just America helped make sure we won WW1 and 2 it was not only America that made that victory happen.
"The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is."
Europe has mass immigration as well and no-one wants to emigrate what's your point ?
The living standard in Europe is far higher then in USA.
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic."
Big words coming from a country that just had an attempted coup to insert a dictator called Trump.
And to claim that we have "disarmed" ourselves is a complete lie. Europe can defend itself extremely well and as I stated above has the most functional democracies in the world unlike your country.
I don't understand where you get this delusion that we are helpless, America is an important part of avoiding war yes but if a war did happen its not like Europe could not defend itself this is complete nonsense. America needs Europe just as much as we need America. Get off your high horse, Europeans helped build your country so stop trying to talk to us as if we owe you a god damn thing. Without us you don't exist in the first place.
"Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China."
Okay first of all Romania became a democracy via majority UNARMED PROTESTS, the masses were NOT ARMED and they still managed to turn their country into a democracy without the use of guns so please stop talking about things you know absolutely nothing about.Riot police were brought in to stop the masses but in many cases ended up joining the protests instead.
And of course there is always a risk someone will try to gain power like in China and Russia, but that's why you build a functional democratic system built on TRUST and not GUNS.
"The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power."
You actually think a armed public can stop a politician from accumulating to much power?.
You actually believe armed civilians would be able to do anything against the professional army of your country? Or do you actually believe no politician currently would dare to "step out of line" and try to get more power because some of you are armed?
You truly live in your own little world don't you? You being armed has absolutely no influence on power politics in your country.
"Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to."
Why do you think we would flee? wait, are you calling us cowards now?
"The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself."
Yeah , imagine if that kid didn't have access to guns he would maybe have had a knife and no one would have died, or maybe it wouldn't not have happened at all because getting a gun would have been so hard for him he would have been picked up by the system and it would never have been allowed to happen.
With super strict gun laws and full control of gun circulation the government can control the risk of these things happening, with full free access to guns there will never be a solution to this problem EVER.
"If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect."
What does this have to do with private citizens being armed or not? These are nations you talk about this would be a military conflict it has nothing to do with private citizens having arms at all.
If my country was under attack any combat able person would get armed immediately.
Also where do you get the notion that you could do with us as you will even if you wanted too, you understand that you would never ever be able to touch a European country because of alliances within Europe and NATO?
You also understand that for the USA to break ties with Europe would be the single most stupidest thing your country could do?
Anyway this is all way off topic I just wanted to correct your stupidity because you are clearly in need of some real education.
I seem to have touched a nerve. I have nothing against Norway. We want Europe as our allies, but are unwilling to disarm for you. If you would like to live in a society without firearms, then please transform your own country or move to a country that bans firearms. We will continue to own ours.
Your own country's military expenditures are exemplary. I believe you spend more per capita on the military than any other country in Europe. I was certainly not trying to call out Norway as a country. Norway is a wonderful country.
Romania's conversion to Democracy was not some peaceful protest. The military literally executed Nicolae Ceaușescu and his wife on camera with a firing squad. So the revolution consisted of those with guns asserting themselves. When you live in a country where the people cannot own firearms then you are subject to the whims of your military. If you believe that people can peacefully remain independent of an armed government then consider what we have witnessed happening in Hong Kong in recent years. Umbrellas will not win you self government. To be fair I doubt if an armed Hong Kong could have preserved its independence against China either. They are just too small. Life and war are team sports and that is why I am thankful to have most of Europe on my team.
Trump was not a dictator. He was a democratic politician who won one election, served for exactly the length of his 4 year term, lost a re-election and then left office. But some day there may be a president who attempts to stay in power after losing an election and he may have the backing of the military and that day we will need our firearms. I hope it never comes to that.
I'm sorry, but the thought of the small percentage of the US populace that would actually be willing to rebel and fight against a dictatorship not just keeping up morale but also having a fighting chance against the best equipped army of the world is ridiculous. You'd loose an infantry battle, let alone win once tanks, planes, missiles, drones and logistics enter the picture.
You are absolutely at the whims of your military, just like every other nation. And like in every other nation the military isn't one homogenuous block and there's a fairly good chance your foot soldiers won't shoot unarmed civilians, a significantly better one than them not shooting armed rebels. There's a reason peaceful protest has established itself as the goto in the 20th century, it had significant successes.
Similarly the thought that our 5%? civilians that are willing to pick up guns but not join the military in case of an invasion would repel the Russian army is pretty funny.
Also if you looked at any statistics you would know that the EU would crush Russia in a head-on military confrontation unless both sides start throwing nukes, which is equally unpredictable as it is unlikely. And China is much more interested in the Pacific than in Europe.
Obviously you can keep your guns and continue to arm the people that fall through your society, but pretending that they work for overthrowing the gov if the military decides to intervene is laughable. And yes statistics prove that they absolutely facilitate large scale violence, even the white populace has almost 3x the homocide rate in the USA compared to Western Europe.
On June 01 2022 23:54 AmericanUmlaut wrote: I've lived about half my life in Germany, and I honestly couldn't identify any meaningful way in which my freedoms are more restricted here.
There is no freedom to choose your basic health insurance plan in Canada. There is in the USA. Got a knee problem that doesn't put you in a wheel chair? Good luck getting an MRI in Canada. As a result, people drive to Buffalo to pay cash for an MRI. Need cataract surgery that has almost completed blinded you? My grandma can't get it in Canada. She paid cash for a cataract procedure in NY so she can now go outside at night. I had to drive her to-and-from the clinic 4 times. For her final assessment recovery visit she actually drove on her own. My grandma can drive again!
We were in the unique position to choose between OHIP and Aetna. Most Canadians do not have that choice. We chose Aetna. Unlike 95%+ Canadians .... we had a choice.
The freedoms in the USA make Canada a better place to live.
You can't buy private health insurance in Canada?
Correct. You can only purchase extended healthcare insurance and dental insurance. So a Canadian is forced into the 5,000 kilometer line ups for hip surgery, cataract eye surgery, and diagnostic MRI's. The solution is to get those procedures.... and many others .... done in the USA.
For health insurance an Ontarian only has one choice : OHIP.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
On May 27 2022 15:57 xsnac wrote:
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
it's called being brainwashed. they are all brainwashed.
An armed population should not exist, no reason in 2022 for having one, or at least I don't see one.
Also, can you imagine they argue about that stupid constitution they have? Some dude wrote a paper 233 years ago and they still do mental gymnastics about how he was right. No wonder they take the bible ad litteram too. Fking hell brother.
I wonder, will Americans ever learn that they can be wrong too? It got to a point where it is pure hubris in the detriment of everything.
In the real world America as a country is the most successful experiment ever attempted. The reason we are so successful is because we do take our constitution seriously. We do not succeed because we are smarter or taller or harder working or because we have more natural resources or better weather. We succeed because we respect our constitution. While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right. The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is. While the Fascists and Communists restricted religious worship, it was the American Bible thumpers who showed up to rescue everyone. Do not be so dismissive towards those who take the Bible seriously.
When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic. This sort of thing seems highly unlikely to younger folks, but I lived through dictatorships in Europe. Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China.
By entrusting your security to American politicians you are showing a degrees of naivete and subservience that we are unwilling to. Politicians are politicians and American politicians are no better than the rest of the world. The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power.
Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to.
The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself.
You may be concerned that guns cause the murders. The data do not back you up.
Non-Hispanic White Americans are the most well armed people in the world, but their murder rate is quite low. It currently sits around 2 per 100,000. Our most populous neighbor, Mexico, sits at 29. The EU sits at 3. So non-Hispanic White Americans commit murders at lower rates than Europeans despite being far better armed.
Guns are not causing the murders. American states and cities have in the past been granted broad powers to restrict gun ownership. During the 1970s - 1990s Washington, DC mostly banned fire arms and watched in terror as its murder rate became the worst in the nation. Meanwhile, rural America, which has the highest per capita gun ownership in the world, has an extremely low murder rate.
If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect.
Are you a troll or are you actually delusional?
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers."
This is a false statement since a true functional democracy makes sure it stays a democracy.
I can speak with experience because I come from the country Norway that is consistently ranked as the most functional democratic country in the world, right next to other Scandinavian countries and majority of European countries rank highest on this index.
In 2020 your country was ranked 36th as a democracy in the world quite low for a country you claim to be "The greatest country in the world"
"While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right."
How is this relevant to anything other then the need you feel to boast about how noble America was during WW1 and 2? Many more countries then just America helped make sure we won WW1 and 2 it was not only America that made that victory happen.
"The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is."
Europe has mass immigration as well and no-one wants to emigrate what's your point ?
The living standard in Europe is far higher then in USA.
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic."
Big words coming from a country that just had an attempted coup to insert a dictator called Trump.
And to claim that we have "disarmed" ourselves is a complete lie. Europe can defend itself extremely well and as I stated above has the most functional democracies in the world unlike your country.
I don't understand where you get this delusion that we are helpless, America is an important part of avoiding war yes but if a war did happen its not like Europe could not defend itself this is complete nonsense. America needs Europe just as much as we need America. Get off your high horse, Europeans helped build your country so stop trying to talk to us as if we owe you a god damn thing. Without us you don't exist in the first place.
"Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China."
Okay first of all Romania became a democracy via majority UNARMED PROTESTS, the masses were NOT ARMED and they still managed to turn their country into a democracy without the use of guns so please stop talking about things you know absolutely nothing about.Riot police were brought in to stop the masses but in many cases ended up joining the protests instead.
And of course there is always a risk someone will try to gain power like in China and Russia, but that's why you build a functional democratic system built on TRUST and not GUNS.
"The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power."
You actually think a armed public can stop a politician from accumulating to much power?.
You actually believe armed civilians would be able to do anything against the professional army of your country? Or do you actually believe no politician currently would dare to "step out of line" and try to get more power because some of you are armed?
You truly live in your own little world don't you? You being armed has absolutely no influence on power politics in your country.
"Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to."
Why do you think we would flee? wait, are you calling us cowards now?
"The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself."
Yeah , imagine if that kid didn't have access to guns he would maybe have had a knife and no one would have died, or maybe it wouldn't not have happened at all because getting a gun would have been so hard for him he would have been picked up by the system and it would never have been allowed to happen.
With super strict gun laws and full control of gun circulation the government can control the risk of these things happening, with full free access to guns there will never be a solution to this problem EVER.
"If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect."
What does this have to do with private citizens being armed or not? These are nations you talk about this would be a military conflict it has nothing to do with private citizens having arms at all.
If my country was under attack any combat able person would get armed immediately.
Also where do you get the notion that you could do with us as you will even if you wanted too, you understand that you would never ever be able to touch a European country because of alliances within Europe and NATO?
You also understand that for the USA to break ties with Europe would be the single most stupidest thing your country could do?
Anyway this is all way off topic I just wanted to correct your stupidity because you are clearly in need of some real education.
I seem to have touched a nerve. I have nothing against Norway. We want Europe as our allies, but are unwilling to disarm for you. If you would like to live in a society without firearms, then please transform your own country or move to a country that bans firearms. We will continue to own ours.
Your own country's military expenditures are exemplary. I believe you spend more per capita on the military than any other country in Europe. I was certainly not trying to call out Norway as a country. Norway is a wonderful country.
Romania's conversion to Democracy was not some peaceful protest. The military literally executed Nicolae Ceaușescu and his wife on camera with a firing squad. So the revolution consisted of those with guns asserting themselves. When you live in a country where the people cannot own firearms then you are subject to the whims of your military. If you believe that people can peacefully remain independent of an armed government then consider what we have witnessed happening in Hong Kong in recent years. Umbrellas will not win you self government. To be fair I doubt if an armed Hong Kong could have preserved its independence against China either. They are just too small. Life and war are team sports and that is why I am thankful to have most of Europe on my team.
Trump was not a dictator. He was a democratic politician who won one election, served for exactly the length of his 4 year term, lost a re-election and then left office. But some day there may be a president who attempts to stay in power after losing an election and he may have the backing of the military and that day we will need our firearms. I hope it never comes to that.
I'm sorry, but the thought of the small percentage of the US populace that would actually be willing to rebel and fight against a dictatorship not just keeping up morale but also having a fighting chance against the best equipped army of the world is ridiculous. You'd loose an infantry battle, let alone win once tanks, planes, missiles, drones and logistics enter the picture.
You are absolutely at the whims of your military, just like every other nation. And like in every other nation the military isn't one homogenuous block and there's a fairly good chance your foot soldiers won't shoot unarmed civilians, a significantly better one than them not shooting armed rebels. There's a reason peaceful protest has established itself as the goto in the 20th century, it had significant successes.
Similarly the thought that our 5%? civilians that are willing to pick up guns but not join the military in case of an invasion would repel the Russian army is pretty funny.
Also if you looked at any statistics you would know that the EU would crush Russia in a head-on military confrontation unless both sides start throwing nukes, which is equally unpredictable as it is unlikely. And China is much more interested in the Pacific than in Europe.
Obviously you can keep your guns and continue to arm the people that fall through your society, but pretending that they work for overthrowing the gov if the military decides to intervene is laughable. And yes statistics prove that they absolutely facilitate large scale violence, even the white populace has almost 3x the homocide rate in the USA compared to Western Europe.
If the Taliban can win its independence from the US military, then I have confidence that 350M Americans with even more firearms can do the same. I agree than an armed EU should be able to hold back Russia in a conventional war.
Trump was not a dictator. He was a democratic politician who won one election, served for exactly the length of his 4 year term, lost a re-election and then left office. But some day there may be a president who attempts to stay in power after losing an election and he may have the backing of the military and that day we will need our firearms. I hope it never comes to that.
I used to buy the argument that guns might be useful in stopping tyranny. But the exact group of people who supported Trump's efforts to forcefully overturn a peaceful, legitimate election are the exact same people who claim they need guns to overthrow tyranny.
I'm a long time lurker and rarely post... I just read about the Tulsa Oklahoma hospital shooting, how the man simply went into a store and bought an AR-15 style rifle yesterday morning before killing people... remembered seeing this thread on TL the other day.
We can only change through agreement not argument, but how can we when our axioms are so fundamentally different (our lived experience) and few of us are able to empathize in the abstract.
For example JimmyJRaynor has likely never been poor in the USA and meadbert has likely never lived outside the USA. Both are delusional about the state of society in the USA (to lesser and greater degrees respectively) -- but how to change anyone's mind?
The Buffalo supermarket shooting, the Uvalde shooting, now this.... pour one out for us boys.
It's not about changing anyone's mind. The gun nuts who don't want the rules to change are a small minority. The problem is structural; America tips its electoral playing field in favor of the rural minority. And among conservatives, people who are pro-guns are rabidly obsessed with their right to own military weapons, whereas people with more mainstream views may agree that guns should be regulated, but aren't necessarily passionate enough about it for the issue to swing their vote. On top of that the gun manufacturers reinvest a lot of their profits to buy a ton of political power.
I don't think you can change the mind of a person who looks at the state of things in America and thinks the daily blood sacrifices to the second amendment are a reasonable price to pay for their sacred right to high muzzle velocities. But since most people already don't agree with them, it's not really necessary to persuade them. I think it's more a question of how you fix the system so that a minority viewpoint no longer carries such power.
On June 03 2022 03:50 AmericanUmlaut wrote: It's not about changing anyone's mind. The gun nuts who don't want the rules to change are a small minority. The problem is structural; America tips its electoral playing field in favor of the rural minority. And among conservatives, people who are pro-guns are rabidly obsessed with their right to own military weapons, whereas people with more mainstream views may agree that guns should be regulated, but aren't necessarily passionate enough about it for the issue to swing their vote. On top of that the gun manufacturers reinvest a lot of their profits to buy a ton of political power.
I don't think you can change the mind of a person who looks at the state of things in America and thinks the daily blood sacrifices to the second amendment are a reasonable price to pay for their sacred right to high muzzle velocities. But since most people already don't agree with them, it's not really necessary to persuade them. I think it's more a question of how you fix the system so that a minority viewpoint no longer carries such power.
as I said like 3 times, nobody takes weapons, away from the fanboys, you just implement some restrictions everywhere. they can have all the weapons they have, just like in every other fking country on this earth. just pass some exams, how come you guys have exams for driving cars but not for "driving" weapons? man, it is getting to a point beyond ridiculous. in 1000 years murica mass shootings will become jokes in space.
On June 03 2022 03:50 AmericanUmlaut wrote: I don't think you can change the mind of a person who looks at the state of things in America and thinks the daily blood sacrifices to the second amendment are a reasonable price to pay for their sacred right to high muzzle velocities.
As I've already posted. Violent crime and murders are way down in New York state. Your stance is not reflected in the #s.
Are there problems in other states? yes. Its up to each individual state to manage their unique problems as New York has.
The above statements while sensible and covering many types of violent crime do not deal with the suicidal mass murderer who has determined beforehand he wants to die during the killing spree. We as a society have to ask ourselves why and how are we producing young men like Alek Minassian, Marc Lepine, and Salvador Rolando Ramos?
Gun control laws won't cure the next Marc Lepine.. the next Alek Minassian or the next Salvador Rolando Ramos. Gun control laws won't make the next Alek Minassian a happy , productive member of society.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
On May 27 2022 15:57 xsnac wrote:
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
it's called being brainwashed. they are all brainwashed.
An armed population should not exist, no reason in 2022 for having one, or at least I don't see one.
Also, can you imagine they argue about that stupid constitution they have? Some dude wrote a paper 233 years ago and they still do mental gymnastics about how he was right. No wonder they take the bible ad litteram too. Fking hell brother.
I wonder, will Americans ever learn that they can be wrong too? It got to a point where it is pure hubris in the detriment of everything.
In the real world America as a country is the most successful experiment ever attempted. The reason we are so successful is because we do take our constitution seriously. We do not succeed because we are smarter or taller or harder working or because we have more natural resources or better weather. We succeed because we respect our constitution. While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right. The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is. While the Fascists and Communists restricted religious worship, it was the American Bible thumpers who showed up to rescue everyone. Do not be so dismissive towards those who take the Bible seriously.
When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic. This sort of thing seems highly unlikely to younger folks, but I lived through dictatorships in Europe. Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China.
By entrusting your security to American politicians you are showing a degrees of naivete and subservience that we are unwilling to. Politicians are politicians and American politicians are no better than the rest of the world. The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power.
Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to.
The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself.
You may be concerned that guns cause the murders. The data do not back you up.
Non-Hispanic White Americans are the most well armed people in the world, but their murder rate is quite low. It currently sits around 2 per 100,000. Our most populous neighbor, Mexico, sits at 29. The EU sits at 3. So non-Hispanic White Americans commit murders at lower rates than Europeans despite being far better armed.
Guns are not causing the murders. American states and cities have in the past been granted broad powers to restrict gun ownership. During the 1970s - 1990s Washington, DC mostly banned fire arms and watched in terror as its murder rate became the worst in the nation. Meanwhile, rural America, which has the highest per capita gun ownership in the world, has an extremely low murder rate.
If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect.
Are you a troll or are you actually delusional?
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers."
This is a false statement since a true functional democracy makes sure it stays a democracy.
I can speak with experience because I come from the country Norway that is consistently ranked as the most functional democratic country in the world, right next to other Scandinavian countries and majority of European countries rank highest on this index.
In 2020 your country was ranked 36th as a democracy in the world quite low for a country you claim to be "The greatest country in the world"
"While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right."
How is this relevant to anything other then the need you feel to boast about how noble America was during WW1 and 2? Many more countries then just America helped make sure we won WW1 and 2 it was not only America that made that victory happen.
"The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is."
Europe has mass immigration as well and no-one wants to emigrate what's your point ?
The living standard in Europe is far higher then in USA.
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic."
Big words coming from a country that just had an attempted coup to insert a dictator called Trump.
And to claim that we have "disarmed" ourselves is a complete lie. Europe can defend itself extremely well and as I stated above has the most functional democracies in the world unlike your country.
I don't understand where you get this delusion that we are helpless, America is an important part of avoiding war yes but if a war did happen its not like Europe could not defend itself this is complete nonsense. America needs Europe just as much as we need America. Get off your high horse, Europeans helped build your country so stop trying to talk to us as if we owe you a god damn thing. Without us you don't exist in the first place.
"Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China."
Okay first of all Romania became a democracy via majority UNARMED PROTESTS, the masses were NOT ARMED and they still managed to turn their country into a democracy without the use of guns so please stop talking about things you know absolutely nothing about.Riot police were brought in to stop the masses but in many cases ended up joining the protests instead.
And of course there is always a risk someone will try to gain power like in China and Russia, but that's why you build a functional democratic system built on TRUST and not GUNS.
"The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power."
You actually think a armed public can stop a politician from accumulating to much power?.
You actually believe armed civilians would be able to do anything against the professional army of your country? Or do you actually believe no politician currently would dare to "step out of line" and try to get more power because some of you are armed?
You truly live in your own little world don't you? You being armed has absolutely no influence on power politics in your country.
"Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to."
Why do you think we would flee? wait, are you calling us cowards now?
"The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself."
Yeah , imagine if that kid didn't have access to guns he would maybe have had a knife and no one would have died, or maybe it wouldn't not have happened at all because getting a gun would have been so hard for him he would have been picked up by the system and it would never have been allowed to happen.
With super strict gun laws and full control of gun circulation the government can control the risk of these things happening, with full free access to guns there will never be a solution to this problem EVER.
"If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect."
What does this have to do with private citizens being armed or not? These are nations you talk about this would be a military conflict it has nothing to do with private citizens having arms at all.
If my country was under attack any combat able person would get armed immediately.
Also where do you get the notion that you could do with us as you will even if you wanted too, you understand that you would never ever be able to touch a European country because of alliances within Europe and NATO?
You also understand that for the USA to break ties with Europe would be the single most stupidest thing your country could do?
Anyway this is all way off topic I just wanted to correct your stupidity because you are clearly in need of some real education.
I seem to have touched a nerve. I have nothing against Norway. We want Europe as our allies, but are unwilling to disarm for you. If you would like to live in a society without firearms, then please transform your own country or move to a country that bans firearms. We will continue to own ours.
Your own country's military expenditures are exemplary. I believe you spend more per capita on the military than any other country in Europe. I was certainly not trying to call out Norway as a country. Norway is a wonderful country.
Romania's conversion to Democracy was not some peaceful protest. The military literally executed Nicolae Ceaușescu and his wife on camera with a firing squad. So the revolution consisted of those with guns asserting themselves. When you live in a country where the people cannot own firearms then you are subject to the whims of your military. If you believe that people can peacefully remain independent of an armed government then consider what we have witnessed happening in Hong Kong in recent years. Umbrellas will not win you self government. To be fair I doubt if an armed Hong Kong could have preserved its independence against China either. They are just too small. Life and war are team sports and that is why I am thankful to have most of Europe on my team.
Trump was not a dictator. He was a democratic politician who won one election, served for exactly the length of his 4 year term, lost a re-election and then left office. But some day there may be a president who attempts to stay in power after losing an election and he may have the backing of the military and that day we will need our firearms. I hope it never comes to that.
I'm sorry, but the thought of the small percentage of the US populace that would actually be willing to rebel and fight against a dictatorship not just keeping up morale but also having a fighting chance against the best equipped army of the world is ridiculous. You'd loose an infantry battle, let alone win once tanks, planes, missiles, drones and logistics enter the picture.
You are absolutely at the whims of your military, just like every other nation. And like in every other nation the military isn't one homogenuous block and there's a fairly good chance your foot soldiers won't shoot unarmed civilians, a significantly better one than them not shooting armed rebels. There's a reason peaceful protest has established itself as the goto in the 20th century, it had significant successes.
Similarly the thought that our 5%? civilians that are willing to pick up guns but not join the military in case of an invasion would repel the Russian army is pretty funny.
Also if you looked at any statistics you would know that the EU would crush Russia in a head-on military confrontation unless both sides start throwing nukes, which is equally unpredictable as it is unlikely. And China is much more interested in the Pacific than in Europe.
Obviously you can keep your guns and continue to arm the people that fall through your society, but pretending that they work for overthrowing the gov if the military decides to intervene is laughable. And yes statistics prove that they absolutely facilitate large scale violence, even the white populace has almost 3x the homocide rate in the USA compared to Western Europe.
If the Taliban can win its independence from the US military, then I have confidence that 350M Americans with even more firearms can do the same. I agree than an armed EU should be able to hold back Russia in a conventional war.
The Taliban "won" because the majority of the US populace didn't want the war anymore, the army was there instead of home aka expensive to supply and the government didn't see a large advantage anymore to staying there. None of these apply to a war at home and at no point in time the Taliban were even close to make a dent in the US military. They just mostly waited them out while in hiding. Afghanistan wasn't Vietnam where the US military took serious losses, over the course of 20 years the USA lost 2420 men.
An armed rebellion of the few that are nuts enough to go against the US military would have as much effect as Malcom X and his group of terrorists had. If the US citizens were willing to defend their freedom they would have fought against patriot act and it's successors that are still in place, or the fact that presidential decrees more and more override the checks and balances by doing things they aren't legally allowed to. But the only civil war the US is going to get in the next 50 years is the left vs right one and if a dictator takes the scepter as a result half of the populace will celebrate him.
On June 03 2022 03:50 AmericanUmlaut wrote: I don't think you can change the mind of a person who looks at the state of things in America and thinks the daily blood sacrifices to the second amendment are a reasonable price to pay for their sacred right to high muzzle velocities.
As I've already posted. Violent crime and murders are way down in New York state. Your stance is not reflected in the #s.
Are there problems in other states? yes. Its up to each individual state to manage their unique problems as New York has.
The above statements while sensible and covering many types of violent crime do not deal with the suicidal mass murderer who has determined beforehand he wants to die during the killing spree. We as a society have to ask ourselves why and how are we producing young men like Alek Minassian, Marc Lepine, and Salvador Rolando Ramos?
Gun control laws won't cure the next Marc Lepine.. the next Alek Minassian or the next Salvador Rolando Ramos. Gun control laws won't make the next Alek Minassian a happy , productive member of society.
Gun control laws will reduce the amount of harm the next Salvador Rolando Ramos is able to do. That's all it is about, if Ramos had a single shot weapon he had to get a permit for he could have shot one person and then would have been overwhelmed. But you don't charge at someone with an assault rifle.
Obviously the USA has societal problems, because yes, f.e. Switzerland has a fairly lax weapon laws and almost a quarter of the weapons per capita (which means it's in the top 20) and nowhere near the homocide rates. But Switzerland doesn't sell ammo for these guns anymore, has the highest wealth per capita, has the 20th lowest income inequality, unemployment below 3% and ranks high on education. Similarly Austria has a lot of guns per capita too (similar amounts), but the only accessible ones are handguns. Both are small fairly rich countries that have nothing to do with the USA with it's drug problems that have been rampant for a century, multi-ethnic but low integration society and top score in income inequality among larger western nations.
So yes, the school shootings hint at some serious problems in your education and society. But there wouldn't be any shootings if the guys didn't have guns and a guy running amok with a knife is far less deadly than someone running around with an AR-15 and lowering the amount of deadly weapons for everyone is (tough but) more realistic than making sure that no psycho falls through your so far pretty much nonexistant social nets.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
On May 27 2022 15:57 xsnac wrote:
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
it's called being brainwashed. they are all brainwashed.
An armed population should not exist, no reason in 2022 for having one, or at least I don't see one.
Also, can you imagine they argue about that stupid constitution they have? Some dude wrote a paper 233 years ago and they still do mental gymnastics about how he was right. No wonder they take the bible ad litteram too. Fking hell brother.
I wonder, will Americans ever learn that they can be wrong too? It got to a point where it is pure hubris in the detriment of everything.
In the real world America as a country is the most successful experiment ever attempted. The reason we are so successful is because we do take our constitution seriously. We do not succeed because we are smarter or taller or harder working or because we have more natural resources or better weather. We succeed because we respect our constitution. While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right. The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is. While the Fascists and Communists restricted religious worship, it was the American Bible thumpers who showed up to rescue everyone. Do not be so dismissive towards those who take the Bible seriously.
When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic. This sort of thing seems highly unlikely to younger folks, but I lived through dictatorships in Europe. Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China.
By entrusting your security to American politicians you are showing a degrees of naivete and subservience that we are unwilling to. Politicians are politicians and American politicians are no better than the rest of the world. The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power.
Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to.
The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself.
You may be concerned that guns cause the murders. The data do not back you up.
Non-Hispanic White Americans are the most well armed people in the world, but their murder rate is quite low. It currently sits around 2 per 100,000. Our most populous neighbor, Mexico, sits at 29. The EU sits at 3. So non-Hispanic White Americans commit murders at lower rates than Europeans despite being far better armed.
Guns are not causing the murders. American states and cities have in the past been granted broad powers to restrict gun ownership. During the 1970s - 1990s Washington, DC mostly banned fire arms and watched in terror as its murder rate became the worst in the nation. Meanwhile, rural America, which has the highest per capita gun ownership in the world, has an extremely low murder rate.
If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect.
Are you a troll or are you actually delusional?
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers."
This is a false statement since a true functional democracy makes sure it stays a democracy.
I can speak with experience because I come from the country Norway that is consistently ranked as the most functional democratic country in the world, right next to other Scandinavian countries and majority of European countries rank highest on this index.
In 2020 your country was ranked 36th as a democracy in the world quite low for a country you claim to be "The greatest country in the world"
"While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right."
How is this relevant to anything other then the need you feel to boast about how noble America was during WW1 and 2? Many more countries then just America helped make sure we won WW1 and 2 it was not only America that made that victory happen.
"The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is."
Europe has mass immigration as well and no-one wants to emigrate what's your point ?
The living standard in Europe is far higher then in USA.
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic."
Big words coming from a country that just had an attempted coup to insert a dictator called Trump.
And to claim that we have "disarmed" ourselves is a complete lie. Europe can defend itself extremely well and as I stated above has the most functional democracies in the world unlike your country.
I don't understand where you get this delusion that we are helpless, America is an important part of avoiding war yes but if a war did happen its not like Europe could not defend itself this is complete nonsense. America needs Europe just as much as we need America. Get off your high horse, Europeans helped build your country so stop trying to talk to us as if we owe you a god damn thing. Without us you don't exist in the first place.
"Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China."
Okay first of all Romania became a democracy via majority UNARMED PROTESTS, the masses were NOT ARMED and they still managed to turn their country into a democracy without the use of guns so please stop talking about things you know absolutely nothing about.Riot police were brought in to stop the masses but in many cases ended up joining the protests instead.
And of course there is always a risk someone will try to gain power like in China and Russia, but that's why you build a functional democratic system built on TRUST and not GUNS.
"The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power."
You actually think a armed public can stop a politician from accumulating to much power?.
You actually believe armed civilians would be able to do anything against the professional army of your country? Or do you actually believe no politician currently would dare to "step out of line" and try to get more power because some of you are armed?
You truly live in your own little world don't you? You being armed has absolutely no influence on power politics in your country.
"Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to."
Why do you think we would flee? wait, are you calling us cowards now?
"The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself."
Yeah , imagine if that kid didn't have access to guns he would maybe have had a knife and no one would have died, or maybe it wouldn't not have happened at all because getting a gun would have been so hard for him he would have been picked up by the system and it would never have been allowed to happen.
With super strict gun laws and full control of gun circulation the government can control the risk of these things happening, with full free access to guns there will never be a solution to this problem EVER.
"If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect."
What does this have to do with private citizens being armed or not? These are nations you talk about this would be a military conflict it has nothing to do with private citizens having arms at all.
If my country was under attack any combat able person would get armed immediately.
Also where do you get the notion that you could do with us as you will even if you wanted too, you understand that you would never ever be able to touch a European country because of alliances within Europe and NATO?
You also understand that for the USA to break ties with Europe would be the single most stupidest thing your country could do?
Anyway this is all way off topic I just wanted to correct your stupidity because you are clearly in need of some real education.
I seem to have touched a nerve. I have nothing against Norway. We want Europe as our allies, but are unwilling to disarm for you. If you would like to live in a society without firearms, then please transform your own country or move to a country that bans firearms. We will continue to own ours.
Your own country's military expenditures are exemplary. I believe you spend more per capita on the military than any other country in Europe. I was certainly not trying to call out Norway as a country. Norway is a wonderful country.
Romania's conversion to Democracy was not some peaceful protest. The military literally executed Nicolae Ceaușescu and his wife on camera with a firing squad. So the revolution consisted of those with guns asserting themselves. When you live in a country where the people cannot own firearms then you are subject to the whims of your military. If you believe that people can peacefully remain independent of an armed government then consider what we have witnessed happening in Hong Kong in recent years. Umbrellas will not win you self government. To be fair I doubt if an armed Hong Kong could have preserved its independence against China either. They are just too small. Life and war are team sports and that is why I am thankful to have most of Europe on my team.
Trump was not a dictator. He was a democratic politician who won one election, served for exactly the length of his 4 year term, lost a re-election and then left office. But some day there may be a president who attempts to stay in power after losing an election and he may have the backing of the military and that day we will need our firearms. I hope it never comes to that.
I'm sorry, but the thought of the small percentage of the US populace that would actually be willing to rebel and fight against a dictatorship not just keeping up morale but also having a fighting chance against the best equipped army of the world is ridiculous. You'd loose an infantry battle, let alone win once tanks, planes, missiles, drones and logistics enter the picture.
You are absolutely at the whims of your military, just like every other nation. And like in every other nation the military isn't one homogenuous block and there's a fairly good chance your foot soldiers won't shoot unarmed civilians, a significantly better one than them not shooting armed rebels. There's a reason peaceful protest has established itself as the goto in the 20th century, it had significant successes.
Similarly the thought that our 5%? civilians that are willing to pick up guns but not join the military in case of an invasion would repel the Russian army is pretty funny.
Also if you looked at any statistics you would know that the EU would crush Russia in a head-on military confrontation unless both sides start throwing nukes, which is equally unpredictable as it is unlikely. And China is much more interested in the Pacific than in Europe.
Obviously you can keep your guns and continue to arm the people that fall through your society, but pretending that they work for overthrowing the gov if the military decides to intervene is laughable. And yes statistics prove that they absolutely facilitate large scale violence, even the white populace has almost 3x the homocide rate in the USA compared to Western Europe.
If the Taliban can win its independence from the US military, then I have confidence that 350M Americans with even more firearms can do the same. I agree than an armed EU should be able to hold back Russia in a conventional war.
The Taliban "won" because the majority of the US populace didn't want the war anymore, the army was there instead of home aka expensive to supply and the government didn't see a large advantage anymore to staying there. None of these apply to a war at home and at no point in time the Taliban were even close to make a dent in the US military. They just mostly waited them out while in hiding. Afghanistan wasn't Vietnam where the US military took serious losses, over the course of 20 years the USA lost 2420 men.
An armed rebellion of the few that are nuts enough to go against the US military would have as much effect as Malcom X and his group of terrorists had. If the US citizens were willing to defend their freedom they would have fought against patriot act and it's successors that are still in place, or the fact that presidential decrees more and more override the checks and balances by doing things they aren't legally allowed to. But the only civil war the US is going to get in the next 50 years is the left vs right one and if a dictator takes the scepter as a result half of the populace will celebrate him.
You, sir, are a wise man. If its 50-50 the side with the military wins but if it is 80-20 my money is on the well armed 80. I totally agree with you about the patriot act. Flying in the US is completely disgusting. 4 year olds have more rights at daycare than Americans do and if you don't get out of your seat fast enough they will beat the crap out of you. Some of the disagreement about gun control is European attitudes vs American attitudes but a lot is generational. We have Germans in the chat who feel so confident in their government that they are willing to disarm, but I am an old man whose wife lost 4 great grandparents in the holocaust and whose grandparents barely survived it. To me the 40s is recent history. My father-in-law was raised an orphan because of this stuff and I am unconvinced that human natute has changed.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
On May 27 2022 15:57 xsnac wrote:
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
it's called being brainwashed. they are all brainwashed.
An armed population should not exist, no reason in 2022 for having one, or at least I don't see one.
Also, can you imagine they argue about that stupid constitution they have? Some dude wrote a paper 233 years ago and they still do mental gymnastics about how he was right. No wonder they take the bible ad litteram too. Fking hell brother.
I wonder, will Americans ever learn that they can be wrong too? It got to a point where it is pure hubris in the detriment of everything.
In the real world America as a country is the most successful experiment ever attempted. The reason we are so successful is because we do take our constitution seriously. We do not succeed because we are smarter or taller or harder working or because we have more natural resources or better weather. We succeed because we respect our constitution. While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right. The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is. While the Fascists and Communists restricted religious worship, it was the American Bible thumpers who showed up to rescue everyone. Do not be so dismissive towards those who take the Bible seriously.
When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic. This sort of thing seems highly unlikely to younger folks, but I lived through dictatorships in Europe. Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China.
By entrusting your security to American politicians you are showing a degrees of naivete and subservience that we are unwilling to. Politicians are politicians and American politicians are no better than the rest of the world. The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power.
Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to.
The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself.
You may be concerned that guns cause the murders. The data do not back you up.
Non-Hispanic White Americans are the most well armed people in the world, but their murder rate is quite low. It currently sits around 2 per 100,000. Our most populous neighbor, Mexico, sits at 29. The EU sits at 3. So non-Hispanic White Americans commit murders at lower rates than Europeans despite being far better armed.
Guns are not causing the murders. American states and cities have in the past been granted broad powers to restrict gun ownership. During the 1970s - 1990s Washington, DC mostly banned fire arms and watched in terror as its murder rate became the worst in the nation. Meanwhile, rural America, which has the highest per capita gun ownership in the world, has an extremely low murder rate.
If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect.
Are you a troll or are you actually delusional?
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers."
This is a false statement since a true functional democracy makes sure it stays a democracy.
I can speak with experience because I come from the country Norway that is consistently ranked as the most functional democratic country in the world, right next to other Scandinavian countries and majority of European countries rank highest on this index.
In 2020 your country was ranked 36th as a democracy in the world quite low for a country you claim to be "The greatest country in the world"
"While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right."
How is this relevant to anything other then the need you feel to boast about how noble America was during WW1 and 2? Many more countries then just America helped make sure we won WW1 and 2 it was not only America that made that victory happen.
"The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is."
Europe has mass immigration as well and no-one wants to emigrate what's your point ?
The living standard in Europe is far higher then in USA.
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic."
Big words coming from a country that just had an attempted coup to insert a dictator called Trump.
And to claim that we have "disarmed" ourselves is a complete lie. Europe can defend itself extremely well and as I stated above has the most functional democracies in the world unlike your country.
I don't understand where you get this delusion that we are helpless, America is an important part of avoiding war yes but if a war did happen its not like Europe could not defend itself this is complete nonsense. America needs Europe just as much as we need America. Get off your high horse, Europeans helped build your country so stop trying to talk to us as if we owe you a god damn thing. Without us you don't exist in the first place.
"Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China."
Okay first of all Romania became a democracy via majority UNARMED PROTESTS, the masses were NOT ARMED and they still managed to turn their country into a democracy without the use of guns so please stop talking about things you know absolutely nothing about.Riot police were brought in to stop the masses but in many cases ended up joining the protests instead.
And of course there is always a risk someone will try to gain power like in China and Russia, but that's why you build a functional democratic system built on TRUST and not GUNS.
"The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power."
You actually think a armed public can stop a politician from accumulating to much power?.
You actually believe armed civilians would be able to do anything against the professional army of your country? Or do you actually believe no politician currently would dare to "step out of line" and try to get more power because some of you are armed?
You truly live in your own little world don't you? You being armed has absolutely no influence on power politics in your country.
"Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to."
Why do you think we would flee? wait, are you calling us cowards now?
"The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself."
Yeah , imagine if that kid didn't have access to guns he would maybe have had a knife and no one would have died, or maybe it wouldn't not have happened at all because getting a gun would have been so hard for him he would have been picked up by the system and it would never have been allowed to happen.
With super strict gun laws and full control of gun circulation the government can control the risk of these things happening, with full free access to guns there will never be a solution to this problem EVER.
"If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect."
What does this have to do with private citizens being armed or not? These are nations you talk about this would be a military conflict it has nothing to do with private citizens having arms at all.
If my country was under attack any combat able person would get armed immediately.
Also where do you get the notion that you could do with us as you will even if you wanted too, you understand that you would never ever be able to touch a European country because of alliances within Europe and NATO?
You also understand that for the USA to break ties with Europe would be the single most stupidest thing your country could do?
Anyway this is all way off topic I just wanted to correct your stupidity because you are clearly in need of some real education.
I seem to have touched a nerve. I have nothing against Norway. We want Europe as our allies, but are unwilling to disarm for you. If you would like to live in a society without firearms, then please transform your own country or move to a country that bans firearms. We will continue to own ours.
Your own country's military expenditures are exemplary. I believe you spend more per capita on the military than any other country in Europe. I was certainly not trying to call out Norway as a country. Norway is a wonderful country.
Romania's conversion to Democracy was not some peaceful protest. The military literally executed Nicolae Ceaușescu and his wife on camera with a firing squad. So the revolution consisted of those with guns asserting themselves. When you live in a country where the people cannot own firearms then you are subject to the whims of your military. If you believe that people can peacefully remain independent of an armed government then consider what we have witnessed happening in Hong Kong in recent years. Umbrellas will not win you self government. To be fair I doubt if an armed Hong Kong could have preserved its independence against China either. They are just too small. Life and war are team sports and that is why I am thankful to have most of Europe on my team.
Trump was not a dictator. He was a democratic politician who won one election, served for exactly the length of his 4 year term, lost a re-election and then left office. But some day there may be a president who attempts to stay in power after losing an election and he may have the backing of the military and that day we will need our firearms. I hope it never comes to that.
I'm sorry, but the thought of the small percentage of the US populace that would actually be willing to rebel and fight against a dictatorship not just keeping up morale but also having a fighting chance against the best equipped army of the world is ridiculous. You'd loose an infantry battle, let alone win once tanks, planes, missiles, drones and logistics enter the picture.
You are absolutely at the whims of your military, just like every other nation. And like in every other nation the military isn't one homogenuous block and there's a fairly good chance your foot soldiers won't shoot unarmed civilians, a significantly better one than them not shooting armed rebels. There's a reason peaceful protest has established itself as the goto in the 20th century, it had significant successes.
Similarly the thought that our 5%? civilians that are willing to pick up guns but not join the military in case of an invasion would repel the Russian army is pretty funny.
Also if you looked at any statistics you would know that the EU would crush Russia in a head-on military confrontation unless both sides start throwing nukes, which is equally unpredictable as it is unlikely. And China is much more interested in the Pacific than in Europe.
Obviously you can keep your guns and continue to arm the people that fall through your society, but pretending that they work for overthrowing the gov if the military decides to intervene is laughable. And yes statistics prove that they absolutely facilitate large scale violence, even the white populace has almost 3x the homocide rate in the USA compared to Western Europe.
If the Taliban can win its independence from the US military, then I have confidence that 350M Americans with even more firearms can do the same. I agree than an armed EU should be able to hold back Russia in a conventional war.
The Taliban "won" because the majority of the US populace didn't want the war anymore, the army was there instead of home aka expensive to supply and the government didn't see a large advantage anymore to staying there. None of these apply to a war at home and at no point in time the Taliban were even close to make a dent in the US military. They just mostly waited them out while in hiding. Afghanistan wasn't Vietnam where the US military took serious losses, over the course of 20 years the USA lost 2420 men.
An armed rebellion of the few that are nuts enough to go against the US military would have as much effect as Malcom X and his group of terrorists had. If the US citizens were willing to defend their freedom they would have fought against patriot act and it's successors that are still in place, or the fact that presidential decrees more and more override the checks and balances by doing things they aren't legally allowed to. But the only civil war the US is going to get in the next 50 years is the left vs right one and if a dictator takes the scepter as a result half of the populace will celebrate him.
You, sir, are a wise man. If its 50-50 the side with the military wins but if it is 80-20 my money is on the well armed 80. I totally agree with you about the patriot act. Flying in the US is completely disgusting. 4 year olds have more rights at daycare than Americans do and if you don't get out of your seat fast enough they will beat the crap out of you. Some of the disagreement about gun control is European attitudes vs American attitudes but a lot is generational. We have Germans in the chat who feel so confident in their government that they are willing to disarm, but I am an old man whose wife lost 4 great grandparents in the holocaust and whose grandparents barely survived it. To me the 40s is recent history. My father-in-law was raised an orphan because of this stuff and I am unconvinced that human natute has changed.
Thank you. I get your attitude, I wish one of the attempts to kill Hitler would have succeeded earlier. But even then I don't think large scale armed rebellion was ever in the cards, let alone going to be successful, the Nazis did have large scale support, most of the people who could have rebelled were part of the Wehrmacht and the conservative army heads would have gladly crushed any rebellion. And while I think that the current USA is nowhere comparable in both the rigidity of the military as well as the totalitarianism of it's system, I get the desire to feel like you can do something against it if it becomes unbearable and there imo has been a trend ever since 9/11 at the latest towards removal of checks and balances and limitless information gathering. The USA isn't alone in this either, the EU is trying to force backdoors into Telegram atm and Vodafone now provides advertiser with trackable IDs.
The problem is that I don't think 80-20 wins vs the military nowadays, the US army beat similar odds over and over against conventional military and the US citizens would be worse organized and worse equipped. I think peaceful continued demonstrations of the 80 have way better chances of both occurring as well as succeeding because the less violent they are the more likely they are at gathering support from the military, which imo is the kingmaker in the end and has been for the vast majority of rebellions.
Yeah my flights into the USA (not the stays) have been unpleasant again and again, you just get treated like a convict all throughout the process. It's both degrading and ridiculous. The taps into privately protected areas and backdoors into common communication paths just makes privacy a farce. But that's what you get when nobody really cares and the guy who sacrificed his very pleasant position to showcase how bad it is has to run from his home country instead of the people who break the law.
On June 03 2022 07:27 Archeon wrote: Gun control laws will reduce the amount of harm the next Salvador Rolando Ramos is able to do. That's all it is about, if Ramos had a single shot weapon he had to get a permit for he could have shot one person and then would have been overwhelmed. But you don't charge at someone with an assault rifle.
Ramos just hops in a minivan... does an Alek Minassian and kills just as many people.
Now, if one can get to the root of the problem we don't have to worry about minivans or guns killing and injury many people all in 1 brutal act of murder suicide.
The younger the people are ... the more society as a whole must take stock of how we produced these teeaged psychos. We are not talking Ted Bundy here.
Once someone has decided to commit suicide... we are at their mercy. No punishment will deter them.. they already want to die.
On June 03 2022 07:27 Archeon wrote:has the highest wealth per capita, has the 20th lowest income inequality, unemployment below 3%
good points here. when economic opportunity rises ... violent crime falls.
On June 03 2022 07:27 Archeon wrote: So yes, the school shootings hint at some serious problems in your education and society. But there wouldn't be any shootings if the guys didn't have guns and a guy running amok with a knife is far less deadly than someone running around with an AR-15 and lowering the amount of deadly weapons for everyone is (tough but) more realistic than making sure that no psycho falls through your so far pretty much nonexistant social nets.
libertarians need to realize that nurturing the self esteem of others helps maintain and grow their own self esteem. so in a way... we are "our brothers keeper"... "love thy neighbour" ... etc etc.
this is the thin end of the wedge that gets libertarians, billionaires, and conservatives to think about what they can do to help out the lowest income and/or least able members of their local community
The left wingers//liberals need to be open to solutions that involve less government interference in the economy.
IMO, this is how a common bridge between the left and right must be built. Once this common ground is built we can look at the best ways to give the best opportunities to the lowest income people.
- Ask Activision to implement more gameplay variation to Call of Duty multiplayer instead of shooting people in the face to score points. Give tax incentives to gaming publishers that create or maintain real time strategy games instead. Bonus points for futuristic or sci fi. Children will once again grow up learning valuable skills and solve problems rather than just clicking a dot with your dot first and seeing a face explode in gory detail.
- Demand an end to Hollywood's obsession with gun violence. Protagonists that defeat the antagonist with guns should be put on the script backburner. Directors that don't meet the quality of Tarkovsky or Bergman should be questioned "by committee" and given one more chance. This would elevate the art form and force movies to once again go back to being intellectually challenging without all of the violence and gratuity.
On June 03 2022 11:49 Husyelt wrote: - Ask Activision to implement more gameplay variation to Call of Duty multiplayer instead of shooting people in the face to score points. Give tax incentives to gaming publishers that create or maintain real time strategy games instead. Bonus points for futuristic or sci fi. Children will once again grow up learning valuable skills and solve problems rather than just clicking a dot with your dot first and seeing a face explode in gory detail.
- Demand an end to Hollywood's obsession with gun violence. Protagonists that defeat the antagonist with guns should be put on the script backburner. Directors that don't meet the quality of Tarkovsky or Bergman should be questioned "by committee" and given one more chance. This would elevate the art form and force movies to once again go back to being intellectually challenging without all of the violence and gratuity.
I take it you're joking but honestly I think it HAS gotten out of control. Especially all the cop dramas on TV where everything is murder murder shootout murder. I remember reflexively opposing the witch hunts against violent video games that happened after Columbine, but I think at this point we have to take a searching look at ourselves as a society that includes the entertainment we consume. I know some will answer "other countries also consume violent entertainment yet don't have mass shootings", but this is a deep problem that we have to tackle from many angles even if reducing guns should be first priority.
On June 03 2022 07:27 Archeon wrote: Gun control laws will reduce the amount of harm the next Salvador Rolando Ramos is able to do. That's all it is about, if Ramos had a single shot weapon he had to get a permit for he could have shot one person and then would have been overwhelmed. But you don't charge at someone with an assault rifle.
Ramos just hops in a minivan... does an Alek Minassian and kills just as many people.
Now, if one can get to the root of the problem we don't have to worry about minivans or guns killing and injury many people all in 1 brutal act of murder suicide.
The younger the people are ... the more society as a whole must take stock of how we produced these teeaged psychos. We are not talking Ted Bundy here.
Once someone has decided to commit suicide... we are at their mercy. No punishment will deter them.. they already want to die.
On June 03 2022 07:27 Archeon wrote: So yes, the school shootings hint at some serious problems in your education and society. But there wouldn't be any shootings if the guys didn't have guns and a guy running amok with a knife is far less deadly than someone running around with an AR-15 and lowering the amount of deadly weapons for everyone is (tough but) more realistic than making sure that no psycho falls through your so far pretty much nonexistant social nets.
libertarians need to realize that nurturing the self esteem of others helps maintain and grow their own self esteem. so in a way... we are "our brothers keeper"... "love thy neighbour" ... etc etc.
this is the thin end of the wedge that gets libertarians, billionaires, and conservatives to think about what they can do to help out the lowest income and/or least able members of their local community
The left wingers//liberals need to be open to solutions that involve less government interference in the economy.
IMO, this is how a common bridge between the left and right must be built. Once this common ground is built we can look at the best ways to give the best opportunities to the lowest income people.
Saying that the suicidal psychopath could just drive a minivan into a crowd and kill just as many people is very easy to say but there's little reason to believe this would happen. Malcolm Gladwell has a chapter in his book Talking With Strangers where he discusses the idea of coupling theory with suicide. Paraphrasing: In England a popular way to kill yourself used to be to stick your head in a coal gas oven and inhale the carbon monoxide until you died. It accounted for over 40% of suicides. Eventually England transitioned away from coal gas and made this method of suicide impossible. Sure, people could have still slit their wrists or hung themselves, but then didn't. At the same time coal gas was phased out the suicide rate also dropped steadily. Just being suicidal often isn't enough, it needs to be coupled with a means to easily do it.
Being a suicidal psychopath and wanting to go out in a blaze of infamy is probably coupled to how easy it is to obtain a firearm and go on a shooting spree. They could kill people by other means but the fact is they don't. I doubt if guns were harder to obtain we're be having almost daily threads of mini-van rampagers. You just have to ask yourself - since these shooters often kill themselves quickly as the police are closing in so they don't rot in prison, how exactly does someone in a mini-van kill themselves quickly without a gun?
On June 03 2022 07:27 Archeon wrote: Gun control laws will reduce the amount of harm the next Salvador Rolando Ramos is able to do. That's all it is about, if Ramos had a single shot weapon he had to get a permit for he could have shot one person and then would have been overwhelmed. But you don't charge at someone with an assault rifle.
Ramos just hops in a minivan... does an Alek Minassian and kills just as many people.
Now, if one can get to the root of the problem we don't have to worry about minivans or guns killing and injury many people all in 1 brutal act of murder suicide.
The younger the people are ... the more society as a whole must take stock of how we produced these teeaged psychos. We are not talking Ted Bundy here.
Once someone has decided to commit suicide... we are at their mercy. No punishment will deter them.. they already want to die.
Ramos killed significantly more people than Minassian and Minassion killed more people with a vehicle than anyone else in Canada's history. It's also easier to stop someone with a Van than with a gun as seen by the fact that Ramos also shot a bunch of cops that tried to. So yes taking guns away would significantly reduce the amount of victims.
To boot I don't think the two are really comparable, Ramos was a typical school shooter in a lot of ways, he got bullied and was isolated in school and later on cracked and went there to take revenge. Like other school shooters he apparently had a strong emotional connection to the place where he ran amok, but it's tough to kill people with a minivan in school. The trial couldn't find out why Minassian did what he did, but by every parameter he's an outlier outside of the autism perhaps.
There's also the fact that opportunity (and culture) creates intent and changes the way we think. If a gun is easy to come by you're much more likely to think about using it.
On June 03 2022 07:27 Archeon wrote: So yes, the school shootings hint at some serious problems in your education and society. But there wouldn't be any shootings if the guys didn't have guns and a guy running amok with a knife is far less deadly than someone running around with an AR-15 and lowering the amount of deadly weapons for everyone is (tough but) more realistic than making sure that no psycho falls through your so far pretty much nonexistant social nets.
libertarians need to realize that nurturing the self esteem of others helps maintain and grow their own self esteem. so in a way... we are "our brothers keeper"... "love thy neighbour" ... etc etc.
this is the thin end of the wedge that gets libertarians, billionaires, and conservatives to think about what they can do to help out the lowest income and/or least able members of their local community
The left wingers//liberals need to be open to solutions that involve less government interference in the economy.
IMO, this is how a common bridge between the left and right must be built. Once this common ground is built we can look at the best ways to give the best opportunities to the lowest income people.
Again agreed that a better economy would help reduce violence. But the USA has an amazing economy even by first world standards and still has more homocides than any other first world country. So while yes, economic problems (and social isolation) tend to be a factor in creating psychopaths, a stronger economy isn't going to solve the problem, just reduce it.
EPT
