Gun violence in America is clearly out of hand. There always has been, and always will be, fierce debate around the reach of the second amendment and gun rights in the US. But we should all agree that something has to be done. And there have to be things we can do right now that at least signal a step in a better direction.
I’m pro gun. I don’t believe we can or should take guns out of America. At my core, I believe that an armed populace is better than an unarmed one.
But I’m so willing to discuss and compromise.
These are my ideas for where we should start the conversation:
A ban on the sale of all new AR-15s and similar weapons. Congratulations gun owners, your ARs just became collectors items. We’re not going to take them from you. But we will not sell a new AR to a civilian in America. Maybe we can consider licenses or permits for civilians who test extensively and appropriately to be qualified to own these weapons.
An optional gun buyback. The US government will buy back any gun at any time from anybody, no questions asked. They will pay top dollar. Whatever the max that this weapon could be worth on the open market, the USA will buy it from you. We won’t ask where you got it, we won’t write down your name, and we’ll hand you cash to walk away with.
We also should go ahead and take the immediate step of putting an armed officer inside every school in America. I know it won’t guarantee safety for everyone all the time, but it will be one more obstacle between a crazy person and our children.
I believe these three steps would go a long way in moving us toward a better and safer standard for gun ownership in America. Many people will argue that ideas like these don’t go nearly far enough. And at the same time, there will always be a vocal group of Americans who will decry any restrictions against gun ownership at all.
I would love to see our legislators move quickly on ideas like mine, but more than anything I hope that we immediately act on something… anything that signals to our children, and our citizens, and to the world, that we’re aware of the inhumanity that’s been happening in our country and that we are finally starting to take meaningful steps toward addressing it.
You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
it's called being brainwashed. they are all brainwashed.
An armed population should not exist, no reason in 2022 for having one, or at least I don't see one.
Also, can you imagine they argue about that stupid constitution they have? Some dude wrote a paper 233 years ago and they still do mental gymnastics about how he was right. No wonder they take the bible ad litteram too. Fking hell brother.
I wonder, will Americans ever learn that they can be wrong too? It got to a point where it is pure hubris in the detriment of everything.
Here are a few reasons that I still feel strongly about wanting to keep my guns:
#1 is personal protection. Even if we banned every gun tomorrow, there are already over 400 million guns in peoples hands. More than enough to arm every man, woman, and child in the US. The bad guys already have them, and they won’t be giving them back.
If you own and are trained and prepared to use your firearm, you are more safe. I am okay with requiring training and better background checks for all gun purchasers.
#2 is the reality of living in rural America. I grew up in the South, and was relatively poor. My family never went hungry, but plenty of my friends hunted regularly solely to put food on your table.
There is an outdoor, immersed in nature lifestyle that many Americans choose that had always been a rich part of our history and tradition. Guns are a part of that and I don’t believe we should take them away.
I completely support tighter controls or even something as extreme as bans down at state levels, but I do not believe it smart, right, or realistic to suggest we remove every gun from America.
There should certainly be a clear delineation between guns that have practical uses that aren't Murder Human Beings Super Efficiently at least.
Im torn these days about guns because I see how cops behave and murder people and I wouldnt fault a black person, for example, for shooting a cop that was about to murder them.
On the otherhand, psychopaths and all.
Ideally it'd be nice to severely restrict guns that don't have a clear utility for hunting or animal control. Shotguns aren't a serious problem, hunting rifles aren't a serious problem, AR-15's and shit should be heavily regulated. All guns need more restrictions though, it shouldn't be easier to own guns than drive a fucking car.
On May 27 2022 17:16 MrBitter wrote: I mean, I get it.
Here are a few reasons that I still feel strongly about wanting to keep my guns:
#1 is personal protection. Even if we banned every gun tomorrow, there are already over 400 million guns in peoples hands. More than enough to arm every man, woman, and child in the US. The bad guys already have them, and they won’t be giving them back.
If you own and are trained and prepared to use your firearm, you are more safe. I am okay with requiring training and better background checks for all gun purchasers.
#2 is the reality of living in rural America. I grew up in the South, and was relatively poor. My family never went hungry, but plenty of my friends hunted regularly solely to put food on your table.
There is an outdoor, immersed in nature lifestyle that many Americans choose that had always been a rich part of our history and tradition. Guns are a part of that and I don’t believe we should take them away.
I completely support tighter controls or even something as extreme as bans down at state levels, but I do not believe it smart, right, or realistic to suggest we remove every gun from America.
nobody said to ban all guns. Guns are legal everywhere. How come we don't have mass shootings in the EU? Please read the above like 5 times and let that sink in, guns are legal, but they are regulated. everywhere.
We obviously have some big systemic problems here and I think most Americans would agree that it feels like the country is at a tipping point.
I do believe we will do better as we go forward.
Restrictive means nothing but to prove to them you are not insane.
Physical exam, Mental exam, shooting training then yes you get your stupid gun. Is this not the most rational thing to require?
It is doable and legal and everyone is happy this way. Nordic countries have 1/3 guns compared to America / 1000 citizens, yet no mass shooting, Yes they had like 2? in the last 10 years, but compared to 800, I can't say anything but point to data and scream "REGULATION IS WORKING WOWWW"
I am sorry if the tone is lost in the reading, I am actually not pissed or anything just making fun of the situation <3 wish you the best.
edit: would you sell a weapon to a mentally unstable person?
On May 27 2022 21:01 MrBitter wrote: We should never sell weapons to mentally unstable people
Mentally unstable people should have the same rights to defend themselves through the use of fire arms just like anyone else. In order to do so, This also means they should also be allowed to purchase fire arms.
What makes you think someone else should have more of a right to purchase firearms for self defense purposes than others? Why would only some people be allowed to defend themselves?
If someone's rights to purchase a firearm and defend themselves are taken away because of the idea that "mentally unstable people shouldn't be able to buy guns", are you willing to foot the security bill? Security is quite expensive.
It's interesting seeing many people talk about this topic on various social media outlets, but i don't hear much discussion about how the police and swat team(who make up 40% of the municipal budget), who are literally trained to deal with thesituations that occurred this week, cowardly waited 40 minutes to do anything in one of the shootings. They waited 40 minutes outside the door when they knew they only had a window of time less than half of that. They had no problem assaulting concerned and hysterical parents outside though. I think it's because they are trying to spin the narrative that "if we had been able to do our jobs, damage could have been minimized". But no one stopped them from doing their jobs here. And yet they failed to protect and serve. They said "we didn't want to get hurt". Cowards. Yet another reason why the police should be defunded. They are nothing more than a fundraising racket anyway, Americans see right through it. I literally had a run in with cops 2 months ago. Cops asked me if I had money/job. I told them no. Then they let me go. If i had a job/money, they were looking to make commission off me. Pigs. Hopefully the police get defunded soon and all the money freed up in the budget could actually be put towards something that will improve society, like helping people who may be struggling with mental health or those who didn't get a fair shake in life. Even just giving the police budget money money back to the taxpayers would be a plus.
I'm viewing this school shooting and rampant violence in the US as a social and family issue, not so much with gun control. I mean illegal guns are quite easy to get, just today I was talking to a friend about illegal pistols and he sneered "Man, I can call a guy and you can have an AK47 with 5 clips in 20 minutes for like 400 euro." I assume it would be easy to buy an AR on the black market in the US, in the unlikely scenario that guns become less accessible. I think this way because for me it's striking how similar the perpetrators usually are, almost indistinguishable. So I'm ruminating that there's gotta be a trigger, something that molds those boys, twists them in such a way that they see no other option in their life except to go berserk on entirely defenseless children or even their peers. However I am not acquainted in depth with the social and family issues in USA. So I'd like to ask fellow board Americans - what do you think is so dysfunctional and this otherwise amazing society you've got there? What drives those boys to commit those appalling crimes? Is it poverty? Is it abuse in the family? Abuse in school? Is is a mix, if so what prevails? Whatever it is, it is up to America's society to deal with it. But it's obvious the answer isn't a simple "Let's just ban guns." USA has to deal with this. And not because of the Constitution, Constitutions are man made and so can ne changed by man. But because those acts tear entire communities apart, destroy hundreds of families, drown them in grief for no reason; those deeds are senseless abomination towards nature and they have to be eradicated somehow.
On May 27 2022 17:16 MrBitter wrote: I mean, I get it.
Here are a few reasons that I still feel strongly about wanting to keep my guns:
#1 is personal protection. Even if we banned every gun tomorrow, there are already over 400 million guns in peoples hands. More than enough to arm every man, woman, and child in the US. The bad guys already have them, and they won’t be giving them back.
If you own and are trained and prepared to use your firearm, you are more safe. I am okay with requiring training and better background checks for all gun purchasers.
#2 is the reality of living in rural America. I grew up in the South, and was relatively poor. My family never went hungry, but plenty of my friends hunted regularly solely to put food on your table.
There is an outdoor, immersed in nature lifestyle that many Americans choose that had always been a rich part of our history and tradition. Guns are a part of that and I don’t believe we should take them away.
I completely support tighter controls or even something as extreme as bans down at state levels, but I do not believe it smart, right, or realistic to suggest we remove every gun from America.
1# IIRC there was a statistic flying around a few years ago that said that gun owners are much more likely to die during contact with criminals than non-gun-owners. Having a weapon opens up the possibility of escalating as a "viable" choice and most criminals aren't really interested in killing you for no good reason, but will do so if they feel threatened. They are usually interested in your valuables, not in a higher prison sentence should they get caught.
Also the problem with the "bad guys have them" argument is that that is never going to change while you keep weapons accessible. If you buy weapons back and don't sell anymore you're slowly reducing the number of them in the country and eventually you might get to the point where not everyone who wants one has one. And you create the possibility of a cultural shift where weapons are seen as the tools for murder they are and not as a toy as some seem to think in the USA.
2# Hunting rifles are legal in a lot of countries. I don't think most people oppose single shot weapons for hunters who get a hunter's license and a weapon permit (which is usually a lot more regulated and harder to attain than even in the blue stats in the USA), but semi-automatic weapons are mainly tools for killing other people so imo there's no reason to keep them accessible.
On May 27 2022 21:01 MrBitter wrote: We should never sell weapons to mentally unstable people
Mentally unstable people should have the same rights to defend themselves through the use of fire arms just like anyone else. In order to do so, This also means they should also be allowed to purchase fire arms.
What makes you think someone else should have more of a right to purchase firearms for self defense purposes than others? Why would only some people be allowed to defend themselves?
If someone's rights to purchase a firearm and defend themselves are taken away because of the idea that "mentally unstable people shouldn't be able to buy guns", are you willing to foot the security bill? Security is quite expensive.
It's interesting seeing many people talk about this topic on various social media outlets, but i don't hear much discussion about how the police and swat team(who make up 40% of the municipal budget), who are literally trained to deal with thesituations that occurred this week, cowardly waited 40 minutes to do anything in one of the shootings. They waited 40 minutes outside the door when they knew they only had a window of time less than half of that. They had no problem assaulting concerned and hysterical parents outside though. I think it's because they are trying to spin the narrative that "if we had been able to do our jobs, damage could have been minimized". But no one stopped them from doing their jobs here. And yet they failed to protect and serve. They said "we didn't want to get hurt". Cowards. Yet another reason why the police should be defunded. They are nothing more than a fundraising racket anyway, Americans see right through it. I literally had a run in with cops 2 months ago. Cops asked me if I had money/job. I told them no. Then they let me go. If i had a job/money, they were looking to make commission off me. Pigs. Hopefully the police get defunded soon and all the money freed up in the budget could actually be put towards something that will improve society, like helping people who may be struggling with mental health or those who didn't get a fair shake in life. Even just giving the police budget money money back to the taxpayers would be a plus.
if they are mentally unstable, what right to defend themselves is there that does not come with the risk of hurting others for no reason? I might get permabanned once again on tl but I will say, you are a fking degenerate if you would sell weapons to mentally unstable people.
On May 28 2022 05:16 JoinTheRain wrote: I'm viewing this school shooting and rampant violence in the US as a social and family issue, not so much with gun control. I mean illegal guns are quite easy to get, just today I was talking to a friend about illegal pistols and he sneered "Man, I can call a guy and you can have an AK47 with 5 clips in 20 minutes for like 400 euro." I assume it would be easy to buy an AR on the black market in the US, in the unlikely scenario that guns become less accessible. I think this way because for me it's striking how similar the perpetrators usually are, almost indistinguishable. So I'm ruminating that there's gotta be a trigger, something that molds those boys, twists them in such a way that they see no other option in their life except to go berserk on entirely defenseless children or even their peers. However I am not acquainted in depth with the social and family issues in USA. So I'd like to ask fellow board Americans - what do you think is so dysfunctional and this otherwise amazing society you've got there? What drives those boys to commit those appalling crimes? Is it poverty? Is it abuse in the family? Abuse in school? Is is a mix, if so what prevails? Whatever it is, it is up to America's society to deal with it. But it's obvious the answer isn't a simple "Let's just ban guns." USA has to deal with this. And not because of the Constitution, Constitutions are man made and so can ne changed by man. But because those acts tear entire communities apart, destroy hundreds of families, drown them in grief for no reason; those deeds are senseless abomination towards nature and they have to be eradicated somehow.
This is only now.
Only now!, you can buy stuff black market that easy because nothing is regulated in the usa regarding weapons.
If tomorrow there would be laws like in the rest of the world to regulate the market, nobody will sell you shit and risk going 20 years in prison for a couple of bucks.
edit: yes black market may be regulated but it does not seem enforced from what you say.
All weapons need to be put out of circulation. Private citizens should only get guns for hunting or shooting range as a hobby. No citizens should have access to fully automatic rifles.
Getting a weapon would require checks that would make it near impossible for guns to end up in the hands of people with bad intentions.
You now have more control of the circulation of guns in your country and if one is used it is easier to track and gun violence crimes are easier to solve because its easier to follow the guns.
Obviously this will take time and you would have to slowly implement the change as you reduce the amount of guns in private citizens hands starting with FULLY AUTOMATIC RIFLES.
With these rules the likelihood of this shooting happening is extremely low and the chance that the community and authorities would be able to pick up on this before it happened would have been higher because the shooter would have really struggled to be able to get his hands on a fully automatic rifle or any gun for that matter.
The 2nd amendment was made in 1791 that is OVER 200 FUCKING YEARS AGO, slaves were allowed then to should we go back to that as well then?
You need to rewrite this shit and stop letting a bunch of cowboys who can't let go of the past keep your country in the 1700s grow the fuck up America
Few things i just wanna mention: 1. I totally agree with xsnac except for the mental unstable part. Don't make the discussion complicated. I don't think ,,mental instability'' is a technial term: As you pointed out: Sensible regulation works as statistics show. if and under what circumstances ,,mental unstable'' persons are allowed to apply for a weapon permit is defined in the regulations.
2. Regarding the original post:
On May 27 2022 05:12 MrBitter wrote: An optional gun buyback. The US government will buy back any gun at any time from anybody, no questions asked. They will pay top dollar. Whatever the max that this weapon could be worth on the open market, the USA will buy it from you. We won’t ask where you got it, we won’t write down your name, and we’ll hand you cash to walk away with.
MrBitter, please think about your proposal for one second: What about possible murder weapons? What about smuggling weapons to sell them for top dollars in the us? I hope you realise this proposal is utterly flawed.
On May 27 2022 05:12 MrBitter wrote: I’m pro gun. I don’t believe we can or should take guns out of America. At my core, I believe that an armed populace is better than an unarmed one.
On May 27 2022 17:16 MrBitter wrote: I completely support tighter controls or even something as extreme as bans down at state levels
This a contradiction, isn't it? On the one hand you think an armed populace (i.e. all citizens) is better than an unarmed one. On the other you support tighter controls for weapons? So everybody should own a weapon AND not everybody should own a weapon. Or are you talking about regulation/ban of certain types of weapons? But what for? Do you think owning a certain type of weapon makes one more likely to murder someone? At least to me that sounds at least questionable. I think regulation just certain types of weapons won't stop people murdering. It only can make it less effective. Which seems like a very weak goal to aim for.
If I may: I think it is very likely you are confusing ,,anti-gun people'' for people who want to ban guns completely. There certainly are people fighting for a complete ban of all guns. But i truley think its the minority of people opposing gun ownership. As xsnac mentioned as well. (Everybody i know and talked to about gun ownership is ''anti gun'' but doesn't think guns should be banned completely.)
On May 28 2022 11:51 Archeon wrote: 1# IIRC there was a statistic flying around a few years ago that said that gun owners are much more likely to die during contact with criminals than non-gun-owners.
There are many studies with the result that owning a gun makes you more likely to get murdered as well as shot in the us.
Also the evidence that sensible regulation of weapon ownership works is kind of indeniable, statistically speaking. As xsnac mentioned as well.
I don't think if somebody is being honest with himself and objective he can deny that strict gun regulations are working and thus reasonable if you want to reduce gun violence. But it's hard to look honestly and objectively if anything contradicts your core believes. It's human. I've been there (too). (Not that i won't get there again )
america is fucked in this sense. There's a stalemate on this topic, and you guys just have to live with the fact that you're gonna have 50000%* more school shootings than is the average in the world.
*87% of statistics on the internet are made up on the spot. This particular number is kind of what I remember seeing on graphs somewhere in internets
On May 31 2022 04:40 niteReloaded wrote: america is fucked in this sense. There's a stalemate on this topic, and you guys just have to live with the fact that you're gonna have 50000%* more school shootings than is the average in the world.
*87% of statistics on the internet are made up on the spot. This particular number is kind of what I remember seeing on graphs somewhere in internets
ya, it is interesting to note that the supposedly super-safe big city of Toronto, Canada has the same murder rate at New York state in general and New York City in particular. The way the media portrays America in general and Toronto in particular you'd never think that is the case. The media seems to be stuck in 1991. It ain't 1991.
To give you an idea of how big Toronto is...the GDP of the Greater Toronto area is only superseded by LA and NYC in America. So comparing Toronto to other USA big cities is 100% valid. Its not like Toronto is Charlotte, North Carolina or something. The only way Chicago is bigger is if you include all of Illinois as teh "greater chicago area". Any how...
I am Canadian and moved from the Toronto area to upstate New York and I'm super happy with my decision. Canada's hardest working, most ambitious university grads continue to flock to the USA in droves. A lot of Canada's best DRs move to the USA. Its also just not "Canada's best" that are leaving ... regular, every-day, hard working Canadian nurses and lab technologists find things better in the USA than in Canada.
The USA remains a great option for people wanting to leave Canada. Over the years , dozens of my classmates and several family members made the cold, calculated strategically-thought-out decision to move the the USA. When I compare this careful analysis to the emo USA-bashing on this board I chuckle.
The USA is pretty damn good and its got lots of great people in it. I feel privileged they let me in!
It's too easy to paint slippery slope arguments or to move the figurative goalpost on every proposed solution for gun control. This results in a perpetual stalemate, even though "conservatives" have a very liberal take on the Second Amendment. The fact that most of the Constitution is written in 18th century legal-ese makes it all the more confusing for your average citizen. Hell, I'd bet that most politicians are still confused by at least a quarter of the Constitution.
Words of the Second Amendment from wikipedia:
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.
In my unqualified opinion, I'm pretty sure that founding fathers put "well regulated militia" and "security of a free state" in there for a good reason. If we were to somehow prove that "a well regulated Militia is not absolutely necessary to the security of a free State," then the rights to bear arms should probably get reexamined under closer scrutiny. With 21st century military technology (hell even 19th and 20th century technology), information/data/privacy/publicity/media/money considerations, mental health, the fact that America spends >$700billion a year on a standing military, and the internet, I think that a well regulated militia (i.e, a military force that is raised from the civil population to supplement a regular army in an emergency) is no longer "absolutely" necessary to the security of America in the context of foreign invasions like in the Revolutionary War vs Britain. At the very least, I think our lawmakers need to define security better (foreign enemies? stability? private security?), but obviously this will never happen because our political system is broken when it comes to these issues.
That being said, I feel like the best way forward is to require all gun owners to serve in their local militia. If you can't serve, then you can't have guns. If you leave the militia, we take those guns away. Incorporate quarterly background and mental health checks, training, and regulated ammunition into that process. This is the only way I'd ever buy in to the "good guy with a gun" theory.
This is of course ignoring all of the other socio-economic problems that may contribute to gun violence, such as the widening income gap between the lower-mid-upper classes, poor work-life balance, negligent parenting, overconsumption of media/entertainment, freedom of stupidity/ignorance getting mixed in with freedom of speech, corruption of all politicians...the list goes on.
I think that the Second Amendment has become a moral abomination, and it should be repealed. I don't believe that guns should be banned entirely, but I also don't believe that the right to own them deserves to be placed on the same moral plane as the right to free assembly and speech, the right to freely practice one's faith, the right not to be subject to unreasonable search and seizure, and the other hallowed rights explicitly enshrined in the Constitution.
I live in Germany now, and people have guns here. Every community has a Schützenverein, and hunting is common. Since I live in a rural community, I hear a lot of gunshots. The difference is that the idea of people just carrying guns around all the time is rightfully considered insane, and the idea of allowing civilians to own military-grade weaponry, the kind designed to kill human beings as effectively and quickly as possible, is considered unthinkably idiotic. Germany practices responsible gun ownership. And so mass shootings here are incredibly rare.
If Americans want guns so that they can hunt or engage in shooting sport, then I'm all for it. Take a class, get a license, purchase a gun that is well-suited to hunting or sport shooting. And inevitably, some of those guns will be used for violence, but it's going to take a hell of a lot longer to mow down an entire classroom full of second graders, and they're going to have a much better chance of surviving their wounds, too.
The idea that Americans need to be well-armed to defend their rights is preposterous. Americans have never won or defended our rights through the kind of organized violence that that argument implies, and recent history tells me that an uprising of idiots with military weapons is more likely to be in order to impose tyrrany than it is to fight back against it.
I think some of the gun problems of America can also be blamed on the country's insistance on being a social pressure cooker. American schools are filled with lofty dreams that can only be reached if you are excellent at everything. On the flip-side is a future with few apparent prospects. Competition and individual performance are ideals that are especially important. It affects how the kids view their situation and society and also how they treat each other. I would argue it creates a particular kind of outsider that ends up self-destructing by killing others. (I have no firm basis for this opinion, btw, so don't go asking for proof or statistics to back it up.)
Easy access to potent guns doesn't help the situation, but I think if you are angry enough for long enough you're going to get hold of guns. America could weed out some of the less commited killers, though, by making it a little harder.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
it's called being brainwashed. they are all brainwashed.
An armed population should not exist, no reason in 2022 for having one, or at least I don't see one.
Also, can you imagine they argue about that stupid constitution they have? Some dude wrote a paper 233 years ago and they still do mental gymnastics about how he was right. No wonder they take the bible ad litteram too. Fking hell brother.
I wonder, will Americans ever learn that they can be wrong too? It got to a point where it is pure hubris in the detriment of everything.
In the real world America as a country is the most successful experiment ever attempted. The reason we are so successful is because we do take our constitution seriously. We do not succeed because we are smarter or taller or harder working or because we have more natural resources or better weather. We succeed because we respect our constitution. While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right. The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is. While the Fascists and Communists restricted religious worship, it was the American Bible thumpers who showed up to rescue everyone. Do not be so dismissive towards those who take the Bible seriously.
When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic. This sort of thing seems highly unlikely to younger folks, but I lived through dictatorships in Europe. Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China.
By entrusting your security to American politicians you are showing a degrees of naivete and subservience that we are unwilling to. Politicians are politicians and American politicians are no better than the rest of the world. The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power.
Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to.
The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself.
You may be concerned that guns cause the murders. The data do not back you up.
Non-Hispanic White Americans are the most well armed people in the world, but their murder rate is quite low. It currently sits around 2 per 100,000. Our most populous neighbor, Mexico, sits at 29. The EU sits at 3. So non-Hispanic White Americans commit murders at lower rates than Europeans despite being far better armed.
Guns are not causing the murders. American states and cities have in the past been granted broad powers to restrict gun ownership. During the 1970s - 1990s Washington, DC mostly banned fire arms and watched in terror as its murder rate became the worst in the nation. Meanwhile, rural America, which has the highest per capita gun ownership in the world, has an extremely low murder rate.
If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
it's called being brainwashed. they are all brainwashed.
An armed population should not exist, no reason in 2022 for having one, or at least I don't see one.
Also, can you imagine they argue about that stupid constitution they have? Some dude wrote a paper 233 years ago and they still do mental gymnastics about how he was right. No wonder they take the bible ad litteram too. Fking hell brother.
I wonder, will Americans ever learn that they can be wrong too? It got to a point where it is pure hubris in the detriment of everything.
In the real world America as a country is the most successful experiment ever attempted. The reason we are so successful is because we do take our constitution seriously. We do not succeed because we are smarter or taller or harder working or because we have more natural resources or better weather. We succeed because we respect our constitution. While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right. The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is. While the Fascists and Communists restricted religious worship, it was the American Bible thumpers who showed up to rescue everyone. Do not be so dismissive towards those who take the Bible seriously.
When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic. This sort of thing seems highly unlikely to younger folks, but I lived through dictatorships in Europe. Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China.
By entrusting your security to American politicians you are showing a degrees of naivete and subservience that we are unwilling to. Politicians are politicians and American politicians are no better than the rest of the world. The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power.
Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to.
The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself.
You may be concerned that guns cause the murders. The data do not back you up.
Non-Hispanic White Americans are the most well armed people in the world, but their murder rate is quite low. It currently sits around 2 per 100,000. Our most populous neighbor, Mexico, sits at 29. The EU sits at 3. So non-Hispanic White Americans commit murders at lower rates than Europeans despite being far better armed.
Guns are not causing the murders. American states and cities have in the past been granted broad powers to restrict gun ownership. During the 1970s - 1990s Washington, DC mostly banned fire arms and watched in terror as its murder rate became the worst in the nation. Meanwhile, rural America, which has the highest per capita gun ownership in the world, has an extremely low murder rate.
If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect.
I don't want to really get into this discussion, but America only succeeded because of the brain drain. If you close the border tomorrow in 10 years you are all bankrupt. It is not about the constitution or anything. Your educational system is a joke until uni. and unis are run on an operational level by foreigners, not by natives. I will say this again since it is the core argument: if you close the border you go out of business instantly. It has nothing to do with that paper, that paper you keep at, only made possible the hillbilly/redneck and ultimately mass shooting culture. You can't produce anything with your early-mid-high school system. Please fact-check before having strong opinions that are straight-up wrong.
On May 31 2022 09:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote: ya, it is interesting to note that the supposedly super-safe big city of Toronto, Canada has the same murder rate at New York state in general and New York City in particular. The way the media portrays America in general and Toronto in particular you'd never think that is the case. The media seems to be stuck in 1991. It ain't 1991.[...]
As far as i can tell the homicide rate of toronto is much lower than the rate of NYC or Los Angeles: Something like 5.5 for NYC and 6.4 for LA (via wiki; or fbi website) vs. 1.62 for Toronto (via statcan; even though i'm not totally convinced: when i was checking the toronto police site itself it didn't really add up; but they didn't show any rates just absolute numbers and no population number to compare it to; But the rate ~3 i got for 2.9 mio inhabitants is still much lower than the aforementioned numbers for NYC and LA.)
Regarding
On May 27 2022 17:16 MrBitter wrote: If you own and are trained and prepared to use your firearm, you are more safe. I am okay with requiring training and better background checks for all gun purchasers.
i wanted to add:
While i was looking for these numbers i came across this article www.nytimes.com. Here the director of the Violence Prevention Research Program at the University of California states that ,,the lower the prevalence of ownership, the lower the rate of firearm violence — that’s been one of the most robust research findings for decades''.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
On May 27 2022 15:57 xsnac wrote:
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
it's called being brainwashed. they are all brainwashed.
An armed population should not exist, no reason in 2022 for having one, or at least I don't see one.
Also, can you imagine they argue about that stupid constitution they have? Some dude wrote a paper 233 years ago and they still do mental gymnastics about how he was right. No wonder they take the bible ad litteram too. Fking hell brother.
I wonder, will Americans ever learn that they can be wrong too? It got to a point where it is pure hubris in the detriment of everything.
In the real world America as a country is the most successful experiment ever attempted. The reason we are so successful is because we do take our constitution seriously. We do not succeed because we are smarter or taller or harder working or because we have more natural resources or better weather. We succeed because we respect our constitution. While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right. The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is. While the Fascists and Communists restricted religious worship, it was the American Bible thumpers who showed up to rescue everyone. Do not be so dismissive towards those who take the Bible seriously.
When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic. This sort of thing seems highly unlikely to younger folks, but I lived through dictatorships in Europe. Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China.
By entrusting your security to American politicians you are showing a degrees of naivete and subservience that we are unwilling to. Politicians are politicians and American politicians are no better than the rest of the world. The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power.
Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to.
The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself.
You may be concerned that guns cause the murders. The data do not back you up.
Non-Hispanic White Americans are the most well armed people in the world, but their murder rate is quite low. It currently sits around 2 per 100,000. Our most populous neighbor, Mexico, sits at 29. The EU sits at 3. So non-Hispanic White Americans commit murders at lower rates than Europeans despite being far better armed.
Guns are not causing the murders. American states and cities have in the past been granted broad powers to restrict gun ownership. During the 1970s - 1990s Washington, DC mostly banned fire arms and watched in terror as its murder rate became the worst in the nation. Meanwhile, rural America, which has the highest per capita gun ownership in the world, has an extremely low murder rate.
If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect.
I don't want to really get into this discussion, but America only succeeded because of the brain drain. If you close the border tomorrow in 10 years you are all bankrupt. It is not about the constitution or anything. Your educational system is a joke until uni. and unis are run on an operational level by foreigners, not by natives. I will say this again since it is the core argument: if you close the border you go out of business instantly. It has nothing to do with that paper, that paper you keep at, only made possible the hillbilly/redneck and ultimately mass shooting culture. You can't produce anything with your early-mid-high school system. Please fact-check before having strong opinions that are straight-up wrong.
I am glad you at least acknowledge that America has succeeded. Why do you suppose the brains are draining here rather than elsewhere? Perhaps it is because there is more academic freedom? Perhaps because we as a people are more free from our own government? Why might that be?
On June 01 2022 04:32 jodljodl wrote: While i was looking for these numbers i came across this article www.nytimes.com. Here the director of the Violence Prevention Research Program at the University of California states that ,,the lower the prevalence of ownership, the lower the rate of firearm violence — that’s been one of the most robust research findings for decades''.
That finding is false. The best example was Washington, DC. In 1975 they mostly banned firearms. Their murder rate soared to being the highest in the nation. The ban was deemed unconstitutional in 2007 and the murder rate collapsed by over 50% in the next 5 years: Source: https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/dccrime.htm
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
On May 27 2022 15:57 xsnac wrote:
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
it's called being brainwashed. they are all brainwashed.
An armed population should not exist, no reason in 2022 for having one, or at least I don't see one.
Also, can you imagine they argue about that stupid constitution they have? Some dude wrote a paper 233 years ago and they still do mental gymnastics about how he was right. No wonder they take the bible ad litteram too. Fking hell brother.
I wonder, will Americans ever learn that they can be wrong too? It got to a point where it is pure hubris in the detriment of everything.
In the real world America as a country is the most successful experiment ever attempted. The reason we are so successful is because we do take our constitution seriously. We do not succeed because we are smarter or taller or harder working or because we have more natural resources or better weather. We succeed because we respect our constitution. While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right. The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is. While the Fascists and Communists restricted religious worship, it was the American Bible thumpers who showed up to rescue everyone. Do not be so dismissive towards those who take the Bible seriously.
When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic. This sort of thing seems highly unlikely to younger folks, but I lived through dictatorships in Europe. Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China.
By entrusting your security to American politicians you are showing a degrees of naivete and subservience that we are unwilling to. Politicians are politicians and American politicians are no better than the rest of the world. The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power.
Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to.
The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself.
You may be concerned that guns cause the murders. The data do not back you up.
Non-Hispanic White Americans are the most well armed people in the world, but their murder rate is quite low. It currently sits around 2 per 100,000. Our most populous neighbor, Mexico, sits at 29. The EU sits at 3. So non-Hispanic White Americans commit murders at lower rates than Europeans despite being far better armed.
Guns are not causing the murders. American states and cities have in the past been granted broad powers to restrict gun ownership. During the 1970s - 1990s Washington, DC mostly banned fire arms and watched in terror as its murder rate became the worst in the nation. Meanwhile, rural America, which has the highest per capita gun ownership in the world, has an extremely low murder rate.
If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect.
I don't want to really get into this discussion, but America only succeeded because of the brain drain. If you close the border tomorrow in 10 years you are all bankrupt. It is not about the constitution or anything. Your educational system is a joke until uni. and unis are run on an operational level by foreigners, not by natives. I will say this again since it is the core argument: if you close the border you go out of business instantly. It has nothing to do with that paper, that paper you keep at, only made possible the hillbilly/redneck and ultimately mass shooting culture. You can't produce anything with your early-mid-high school system. Please fact-check before having strong opinions that are straight-up wrong.
I am glad you at least acknowledge that America has succeeded. Why do you suppose the brains are draining here rather than elsewhere? Perhaps it is because there is more academic freedom? Perhaps because we as a people are more free from our own government? Why might that be?
because others were at war, or because of opportunities (which is not the case anymore today), not because of your stupid constitution. but w/e fam, keep your wishful thinking. Also, check mumbai institute of technology, check how many grad students were going to study in 2000 in murica and how many are now, also how many are staying in murica after. It only goes downhill from here, enjoy the ride. Again, won't comment anymore, you seem to have a rather bigoted opinion and a complete disillusion on how the world is working.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
On May 27 2022 15:57 xsnac wrote:
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
it's called being brainwashed. they are all brainwashed.
An armed population should not exist, no reason in 2022 for having one, or at least I don't see one.
Also, can you imagine they argue about that stupid constitution they have? Some dude wrote a paper 233 years ago and they still do mental gymnastics about how he was right. No wonder they take the bible ad litteram too. Fking hell brother.
I wonder, will Americans ever learn that they can be wrong too? It got to a point where it is pure hubris in the detriment of everything.
In the real world America as a country is the most successful experiment ever attempted. The reason we are so successful is because we do take our constitution seriously. We do not succeed because we are smarter or taller or harder working or because we have more natural resources or better weather. We succeed because we respect our constitution. While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right. The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is. While the Fascists and Communists restricted religious worship, it was the American Bible thumpers who showed up to rescue everyone. Do not be so dismissive towards those who take the Bible seriously.
When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic. This sort of thing seems highly unlikely to younger folks, but I lived through dictatorships in Europe. Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China.
By entrusting your security to American politicians you are showing a degrees of naivete and subservience that we are unwilling to. Politicians are politicians and American politicians are no better than the rest of the world. The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power.
Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to.
The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself.
You may be concerned that guns cause the murders. The data do not back you up.
Non-Hispanic White Americans are the most well armed people in the world, but their murder rate is quite low. It currently sits around 2 per 100,000. Our most populous neighbor, Mexico, sits at 29. The EU sits at 3. So non-Hispanic White Americans commit murders at lower rates than Europeans despite being far better armed.
Guns are not causing the murders. American states and cities have in the past been granted broad powers to restrict gun ownership. During the 1970s - 1990s Washington, DC mostly banned fire arms and watched in terror as its murder rate became the worst in the nation. Meanwhile, rural America, which has the highest per capita gun ownership in the world, has an extremely low murder rate.
If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect.
I don't want to really get into this discussion, but America only succeeded because of the brain drain. If you close the border tomorrow in 10 years you are all bankrupt. It is not about the constitution or anything. Your educational system is a joke until uni. and unis are run on an operational level by foreigners, not by natives. I will say this again since it is the core argument: if you close the border you go out of business instantly. It has nothing to do with that paper, that paper you keep at, only made possible the hillbilly/redneck and ultimately mass shooting culture. You can't produce anything with your early-mid-high school system. Please fact-check before having strong opinions that are straight-up wrong.
I am glad you at least acknowledge that America has succeeded. Why do you suppose the brains are draining here rather than elsewhere? Perhaps it is because there is more academic freedom? Perhaps because we as a people are more free from our own government? Why might that be?
because others were at war, or because of opportunities (which is not the case anymore today), not because of your stupid constitution. but w/e fam, keep your wishful thinking. Also, check mumbai institute of technology, check how many grad students were going to study in 2000 in murica and how many are now, also how many are staying in murica after. It only goes downhill from here, enjoy the ride. Again, won't comment anymore, you seem to have a rather bigoted opinion and a complete disillusion on how the world is working.
After calling us hillbillies and rednecks and insulting our great country by referring to it as "murica" you accuse us of being the bigots. Then you claim that we bigots are only successful because we invite so many immigrants into our country to join us? Maybe we are less bigoted that you think? Maybe you are more bigoted than you think? Please consider both of these possibilities while you refrain from replying during your self-imposed exile.
On June 01 2022 04:19 xsnac wrote: I don't want to really get into this discussion, but America only succeeded because of the brain drain. If you close the border tomorrow in 10 years you are all bankrupt. It is not about the constitution or anything.
Canada and the USA share the longest undefended border in the world. It ain't closing... Thank God!
On May 31 2022 09:39 JimmyJRaynor wrote: ya, it is interesting to note that the supposedly super-safe big city of Toronto, Canada has the same murder rate at New York state in general and New York City in particular. The way the media portrays America in general and Toronto in particular you'd never think that is the case. The media seems to be stuck in 1991. It ain't 1991.[...]
As far as i can tell the homicide rate of toronto is much lower than the rate of NYC or Los Angeles: Something like 5.5 for NYC and 6.4 for LA (via wiki; or fbi website) vs. 1.62 for Toronto (via statcan; even though i'm not totally convinced: when i was checking the toronto police site itself it didn't really add up; but they didn't show any rates just absolute numbers and no population number to compare it to; But the rate ~3 i got for 2.9 mio inhabitants is still much lower than the aforementioned numbers for NYC and LA.)
I am comparing NYC to Toronto. I am not comparing LA to TO. You have your #s wrong.
This piece is a bit sensationalist. Overall... over the past few years TO and NYC are approximately equal in murder rate. TO and New York state are also about equal.
Regarding Toronto... You ever hang out at Queen//Sherbourne? Jane//Finch? The block north of Filmore's strip club on Dundas? Its basically the video game "Borderlands" or a Mad Max movie ... brought to real life. Check out my vid in the Canadian politics thread. That's standard fare. I can make a video like that almost any day of the week.
Violent crime has been falling steadily across NYC and New York state since 1991. Overall, I'd say NY state and Toronto are about equal in terms of danger levels. https://www.disastercenter.com/crime/nycrime.htm
On June 01 2022 03:55 meadbert wrote: Non-Hispanic White Americans are the most well armed people in the world, but their murder rate is quite low. It currently sits around 2 per 100,000. [...] The EU sits at 3. So non-Hispanic White Americans commit murders at lower rates than Europeans despite being far better armed.
Dude, that's a bunch of bullshit: the murder rate in the european union was 0.755 in 2017. Bit smaller than 2, ey? Source: Population: ec.europa.eu and Number of Murders: ec.europa.eu (I edited the source. The table i refered to before I didn't fully understand, so I decided to refer to something i do understand )
On June 01 2022 13:27 JimmyJRaynor wrote: I am comparing NYC to Toronto. I am not comparing LA to TO. You have your #s wrong.
This piece is a bit sensationalist. Overall... over the past few years TO and NYC are approximately equal in murder rate. TO and New York state are also about equal.
I took a look at that article. Few things I want to mention: 1. 47/29.3 = 1.6041 notequals 1.67. Which sheds confidence in blogTO right away. 2. In the article they are comparing murder rates mid year. Which is weird. It's even weirder because there was an extraodinary event with 11 murders which they even mention. Doesn't help with the confidence in blogTO... 3. NYC/NY State and Toronto are not approximately equal in murder rates over the past few years: NYC vs Toronto vs NY State 4.1 vs 2.2 vs 4.2 in 2015 3.9 vs 2.8 vs 4.4 in 2016 3.4 vs 2.6 vs 3.7 in 2017 3.4 vs 3.3 vs 4.1 in 2018 3.67 vs 2.8 vs 3.9 in 2019 5.35 vs 2.5 vs 5.3 in 2020 5.54 vs 3 in 2021
If you disregard 2018 you can see that NYC has a murder rate that is at least 30% higher than that of Toronto in the last 7 years. So no, the murder rates of NYC and Toronto are not even close and especially not approximately equal. If you compare NY State and Toronto you get a similiar picture: In 2018 when the murder rates were the closest NY States murder rate is still about 25% bigger than the murder rate of Toronto.
Sources: NY State: www.cdc.gov, numbers of murders in Toronto app.powerbi.com by Toronto Police Service, numbers of murders in NYC www1.nyc.gov -> citywide seven major felony offenses 2000-2021 (PDF), population i pick of different sources; hard to find numbers for every year (at least for me) because census does not happen yearly.)
It's also worth mentioning that 2018 is the all time high of murders in toronto whereas the numbers of murders in 2018 in NYC is relatively low.
On June 01 2022 13:27 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Regarding Toronto... You ever hang out at Queen//Sherbourne? Jane//Finch? The block north of Filmore's strip club on Dundas? Its basically the video game "Borderlands" or a Mad Max movie ... brought to real life. Check out my vid in the Canadian politics thread. That's standard fare. I can make a video like that almost any day of the week.
No, I have not. I've never been to North America.
On June 01 2022 13:27 JimmyJRaynor wrote: Violent crime has been falling steadily across NYC and New York state since 1991. Overall, I'd say NY state and Toronto are about equal in terms of danger levels.
I cannot judge what the situation is with regard to the dangers. But the number of murders is increasing in NYC since 2017 (# 2016 > # 2017 but #2017<#2018<#2019...)
Now i've spent way too much time for this discussion anyway. So i probably won't contribute anymore. I won't convince you of anything anyway. Though it wasn't my intention. My intention was and is to sow doubt about the opinions of weapons proponents. Only yourself can truley change your opinion...
On June 01 2022 17:58 jodljodl wrote: NYC vs Toronto vs NY State 4.1 vs 2.2 vs 4.2 in 2015 3.9 vs 2.8 vs 4.4 in 2016 3.4 vs 2.6 vs 3.7 in 2017 3.4 vs 3.3 vs 4.1 in 2018 3.67 vs 2.8 vs 3.9 in 2019 5.35 vs 2.5 vs 5.3 in 2020 5.54 vs 3 in 2021
If you disregard 2018 you can see that NYC has a murder rate that is at least 30% higher than that of Toronto in the last 7 years. So no, the murder rates of NYC and Toronto are not even close and especially not approximately equal. If you compare NY State and Toronto you get a similiar picture: In 2018 when the murder rates were the closest NY States murder rate is still about 25% bigger than the murder rate of Toronto.
25% .... so if Toronto had about 15 more murders it'd have a murder rate equal to New York state.
the emo hyberbole of "clearly out of hand" doesn't match with the #s. its not like thousands are being slaughtered in NYC compared to a couple of dozen in Toronto.
"Even though Toronto is the fourth largest city in North America, it has a relatively low homicide rate that fluctuated between 2.1 and 3.8, worse than most of Europe, but comparable to modern day New York."
The level of violent crime in New York state made Torontonians think twice about relocating to New York decades ago. That is no longer the case. Violent crime in New York state is way down; people in southern ontario getting better job offers in New York no longer factor violent crime issues in their decision making the way they did back in the 1990s.
I think two major factors led to a steady decrease in violent crime in New York over the past 30 years. #1 solid economic opportunity. #2 really smart immigration by the state and feds... New York is able to attract top notch hard working immigrants... the kinds of top notch immigrants Canada used to attract when it was an economic powerhouse under Mulroney and Chretien.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
it's called being brainwashed. they are all brainwashed.
An armed population should not exist, no reason in 2022 for having one, or at least I don't see one.
Also, can you imagine they argue about that stupid constitution they have? Some dude wrote a paper 233 years ago and they still do mental gymnastics about how he was right. No wonder they take the bible ad litteram too. Fking hell brother.
I wonder, will Americans ever learn that they can be wrong too? It got to a point where it is pure hubris in the detriment of everything.
In the real world America as a country is the most successful experiment ever attempted. The reason we are so successful is because we do take our constitution seriously. We do not succeed because we are smarter or taller or harder working or because we have more natural resources or better weather. We succeed because we respect our constitution. While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right. The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is. While the Fascists and Communists restricted religious worship, it was the American Bible thumpers who showed up to rescue everyone. Do not be so dismissive towards those who take the Bible seriously.
When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic. This sort of thing seems highly unlikely to younger folks, but I lived through dictatorships in Europe. Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China.
By entrusting your security to American politicians you are showing a degrees of naivete and subservience that we are unwilling to. Politicians are politicians and American politicians are no better than the rest of the world. The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power.
Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to.
The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself.
You may be concerned that guns cause the murders. The data do not back you up.
Non-Hispanic White Americans are the most well armed people in the world, but their murder rate is quite low. It currently sits around 2 per 100,000. Our most populous neighbor, Mexico, sits at 29. The EU sits at 3. So non-Hispanic White Americans commit murders at lower rates than Europeans despite being far better armed.
Guns are not causing the murders. American states and cities have in the past been granted broad powers to restrict gun ownership. During the 1970s - 1990s Washington, DC mostly banned fire arms and watched in terror as its murder rate became the worst in the nation. Meanwhile, rural America, which has the highest per capita gun ownership in the world, has an extremely low murder rate.
If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect.
Are you a troll or are you actually delusional?
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers."
This is a false statement since a true functional democracy makes sure it stays a democracy.
I can speak with experience because I come from the country Norway that is consistently ranked as the most functional democratic country in the world, right next to other Scandinavian countries and majority of European countries rank highest on this index.
In 2020 your country was ranked 36th as a democracy in the world quite low for a country you claim to be "The greatest country in the world"
"While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right."
How is this relevant to anything other then the need you feel to boast about how noble America was during WW1 and 2? Many more countries then just America helped make sure we won WW1 and 2 it was not only America that made that victory happen.
"The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is."
Europe has mass immigration as well and no-one wants to emigrate what's your point ?
The living standard in Europe is far higher then in USA.
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic."
Big words coming from a country that just had an attempted coup to insert a dictator called Trump.
And to claim that we have "disarmed" ourselves is a complete lie. Europe can defend itself extremely well and as I stated above has the most functional democracies in the world unlike your country.
I don't understand where you get this delusion that we are helpless, America is an important part of avoiding war yes but if a war did happen its not like Europe could not defend itself this is complete nonsense. America needs Europe just as much as we need America. Get off your high horse, Europeans helped build your country so stop trying to talk to us as if we owe you a god damn thing. Without us you don't exist in the first place.
"Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China."
Okay first of all Romania became a democracy via majority UNARMED PROTESTS, the masses were NOT ARMED and they still managed to turn their country into a democracy without the use of guns so please stop talking about things you know absolutely nothing about.Riot police were brought in to stop the masses but in many cases ended up joining the protests instead.
And of course there is always a risk someone will try to gain power like in China and Russia, but that's why you build a functional democratic system built on TRUST and not GUNS.
"The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power."
You actually think a armed public can stop a politician from accumulating to much power?.
You actually believe armed civilians would be able to do anything against the professional army of your country? Or do you actually believe no politician currently would dare to "step out of line" and try to get more power because some of you are armed?
You truly live in your own little world don't you? You being armed has absolutely no influence on power politics in your country.
"Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to."
Why do you think we would flee? wait, are you calling us cowards now?
"The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself."
Yeah , imagine if that kid didn't have access to guns he would maybe have had a knife and no one would have died, or maybe it wouldn't not have happened at all because getting a gun would have been so hard for him he would have been picked up by the system and it would never have been allowed to happen.
With super strict gun laws and full control of gun circulation the government can control the risk of these things happening, with full free access to guns there will never be a solution to this problem EVER.
"If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect."
What does this have to do with private citizens being armed or not? These are nations you talk about this would be a military conflict it has nothing to do with private citizens having arms at all.
If my country was under attack any combat able person would get armed immediately.
Also where do you get the notion that you could do with us as you will even if you wanted too, you understand that you would never ever be able to touch a European country because of alliances within Europe and NATO?
You also understand that for the USA to break ties with Europe would be the single most stupidest thing your country could do?
Anyway this is all way off topic I just wanted to correct your stupidity because you are clearly in need of some real education.
Americans who know nothing of America except the feel-good history we are taught in public schools and have never spent any time living outside of the country very commonly hold all of these views. "I'm proud to be an American, where at least I know I'm free." It's really puzzling the way people walk around with this intense pride at being "freer" than others, but there's really no answer when it comes to nailing down exactly what makes America so much freer than all the other democratic nations in the world.
I've lived about half my life in Germany, and I honestly couldn't identify any meaningful way in which my freedoms are more restricted here. I suppose if I were really into flying Nazi flags I'd maybe be bummed that my freedom to do so is restricted here. On the other hand, there's no speed limit on the freeway. Is an American doing 70mph with a giant swastika flag flying behind their pickup truck freer than me in a BMW doing 120mph?
When it comes down to it, it seems to me that the only significant freedom I had in America and don't have here was the freedom to go to Walmart and buy a tool of mass murder on a whim. And yet here I have the freedom to send my children to school without any concern that some dipshit put an AR-15 on credit and is going to murder my kids for the fun of it. I don't miss the freedom to arm myself with whatever weapon strikes my mood, and I definitely don't miss the anxiety of sending my children out into the world in a country so barbaric that it averages a mass shooting a day.
On June 01 2022 03:55 meadbert wrote: Non-Hispanic White Americans are the most well armed people in the world, but their murder rate is quite low. It currently sits around 2 per 100,000. [...] The EU sits at 3. So non-Hispanic White Americans commit murders at lower rates than Europeans despite being far better armed.
Dude, that's a bunch of bullshit: the murder rate in the european union was 0.755 in 2017. Bit smaller than 2, ey? Source: Population: ec.europa.eu and Number of Murders: ec.europa.eu (I edited the source. The table i refered to before I didn't fully understand, so I decided to refer to something i do understand ) .
Page 17 clearly labels the murder rate of Europe as 3.0. It does NOT label the murder rate of the European Union as 3.0. I (and google) stand corrected. Thank you.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
On May 27 2022 15:57 xsnac wrote:
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
it's called being brainwashed. they are all brainwashed.
An armed population should not exist, no reason in 2022 for having one, or at least I don't see one.
Also, can you imagine they argue about that stupid constitution they have? Some dude wrote a paper 233 years ago and they still do mental gymnastics about how he was right. No wonder they take the bible ad litteram too. Fking hell brother.
I wonder, will Americans ever learn that they can be wrong too? It got to a point where it is pure hubris in the detriment of everything.
In the real world America as a country is the most successful experiment ever attempted. The reason we are so successful is because we do take our constitution seriously. We do not succeed because we are smarter or taller or harder working or because we have more natural resources or better weather. We succeed because we respect our constitution. While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right. The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is. While the Fascists and Communists restricted religious worship, it was the American Bible thumpers who showed up to rescue everyone. Do not be so dismissive towards those who take the Bible seriously.
When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic. This sort of thing seems highly unlikely to younger folks, but I lived through dictatorships in Europe. Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China.
By entrusting your security to American politicians you are showing a degrees of naivete and subservience that we are unwilling to. Politicians are politicians and American politicians are no better than the rest of the world. The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power.
Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to.
The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself.
You may be concerned that guns cause the murders. The data do not back you up.
Non-Hispanic White Americans are the most well armed people in the world, but their murder rate is quite low. It currently sits around 2 per 100,000. Our most populous neighbor, Mexico, sits at 29. The EU sits at 3. So non-Hispanic White Americans commit murders at lower rates than Europeans despite being far better armed.
Guns are not causing the murders. American states and cities have in the past been granted broad powers to restrict gun ownership. During the 1970s - 1990s Washington, DC mostly banned fire arms and watched in terror as its murder rate became the worst in the nation. Meanwhile, rural America, which has the highest per capita gun ownership in the world, has an extremely low murder rate.
If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect.
Are you a troll or are you actually delusional?
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers."
This is a false statement since a true functional democracy makes sure it stays a democracy.
I can speak with experience because I come from the country Norway that is consistently ranked as the most functional democratic country in the world, right next to other Scandinavian countries and majority of European countries rank highest on this index.
In 2020 your country was ranked 36th as a democracy in the world quite low for a country you claim to be "The greatest country in the world"
"While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right."
How is this relevant to anything other then the need you feel to boast about how noble America was during WW1 and 2? Many more countries then just America helped make sure we won WW1 and 2 it was not only America that made that victory happen.
"The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is."
Europe has mass immigration as well and no-one wants to emigrate what's your point ?
The living standard in Europe is far higher then in USA.
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic."
Big words coming from a country that just had an attempted coup to insert a dictator called Trump.
And to claim that we have "disarmed" ourselves is a complete lie. Europe can defend itself extremely well and as I stated above has the most functional democracies in the world unlike your country.
I don't understand where you get this delusion that we are helpless, America is an important part of avoiding war yes but if a war did happen its not like Europe could not defend itself this is complete nonsense. America needs Europe just as much as we need America. Get off your high horse, Europeans helped build your country so stop trying to talk to us as if we owe you a god damn thing. Without us you don't exist in the first place.
"Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China."
Okay first of all Romania became a democracy via majority UNARMED PROTESTS, the masses were NOT ARMED and they still managed to turn their country into a democracy without the use of guns so please stop talking about things you know absolutely nothing about.Riot police were brought in to stop the masses but in many cases ended up joining the protests instead.
And of course there is always a risk someone will try to gain power like in China and Russia, but that's why you build a functional democratic system built on TRUST and not GUNS.
"The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power."
You actually think a armed public can stop a politician from accumulating to much power?.
You actually believe armed civilians would be able to do anything against the professional army of your country? Or do you actually believe no politician currently would dare to "step out of line" and try to get more power because some of you are armed?
You truly live in your own little world don't you? You being armed has absolutely no influence on power politics in your country.
"Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to."
Why do you think we would flee? wait, are you calling us cowards now?
"The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself."
Yeah , imagine if that kid didn't have access to guns he would maybe have had a knife and no one would have died, or maybe it wouldn't not have happened at all because getting a gun would have been so hard for him he would have been picked up by the system and it would never have been allowed to happen.
With super strict gun laws and full control of gun circulation the government can control the risk of these things happening, with full free access to guns there will never be a solution to this problem EVER.
"If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect."
What does this have to do with private citizens being armed or not? These are nations you talk about this would be a military conflict it has nothing to do with private citizens having arms at all.
If my country was under attack any combat able person would get armed immediately.
Also where do you get the notion that you could do with us as you will even if you wanted too, you understand that you would never ever be able to touch a European country because of alliances within Europe and NATO?
You also understand that for the USA to break ties with Europe would be the single most stupidest thing your country could do?
Anyway this is all way off topic I just wanted to correct your stupidity because you are clearly in need of some real education.
I seem to have touched a nerve. I have nothing against Norway. We want Europe as our allies, but are unwilling to disarm for you. If you would like to live in a society without firearms, then please transform your own country or move to a country that bans firearms. We will continue to own ours.
Your own country's military expenditures are exemplary. I believe you spend more per capita on the military than any other country in Europe. I was certainly not trying to call out Norway as a country. Norway is a wonderful country.
Romania's conversion to Democracy was not some peaceful protest. The military literally executed Nicolae Ceaușescu and his wife on camera with a firing squad. So the revolution consisted of those with guns asserting themselves. When you live in a country where the people cannot own firearms then you are subject to the whims of your military. If you believe that people can peacefully remain independent of an armed government then consider what we have witnessed happening in Hong Kong in recent years. Umbrellas will not win you self government. To be fair I doubt if an armed Hong Kong could have preserved its independence against China either. They are just too small. Life and war are team sports and that is why I am thankful to have most of Europe on my team.
Trump was not a dictator. He was a democratic politician who won one election, served for exactly the length of his 4 year term, lost a re-election and then left office. But some day there may be a president who attempts to stay in power after losing an election and he may have the backing of the military and that day we will need our firearms. I hope it never comes to that.
On June 01 2022 23:54 AmericanUmlaut wrote: I've lived about half my life in Germany, and I honestly couldn't identify any meaningful way in which my freedoms are more restricted here.
There is no freedom to choose your basic health insurance plan in Canada. There is in the USA. Got a knee problem that doesn't put you in a wheel chair? Good luck getting an MRI in Canada. As a result, people drive to Buffalo to pay cash for an MRI. Need cataract surgery that has almost completed blinded you? My grandma can't get it in Canada. She paid cash for a cataract procedure in NY so she can now go outside at night. I had to drive her to-and-from the clinic 4 times. For her final assessment recovery visit she actually drove on her own. My grandma can drive again!
We were in the unique position to choose between OHIP and Aetna. Most Canadians do not have that choice. We chose Aetna. Unlike 95%+ Canadians .... we had a choice.
The freedoms in the USA make Canada a better place to live.
On June 01 2022 23:54 AmericanUmlaut wrote: I've lived about half my life in Germany, and I honestly couldn't identify any meaningful way in which my freedoms are more restricted here.
There is no freedom to choose your basic health insurance plan in Canada. There is in the USA. Got a knee problem that doesn't put you in a wheel chair? Good luck getting an MRI in Canada. As a result, people drive to Buffalo to pay cash for an MRI. Need cataract surgery that has almost completed blinded you? My grandma can't get it in Canada. She paid cash for a cataract procedure in NY so she can now go outside at night. I had to drive her to-and-from the clinic 4 times. For her final assessment recovery visit she actually drove on her own. My grandma can drive again!
We were in the unique position to choose between OHIP and Aetna. Most Canadians do not have that choice. We chose Aetna. Unlike 95%+ Canadians .... we had a choice.
The freedoms in the USA make Canada a better place to live.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
On May 27 2022 15:57 xsnac wrote:
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
it's called being brainwashed. they are all brainwashed.
An armed population should not exist, no reason in 2022 for having one, or at least I don't see one.
Also, can you imagine they argue about that stupid constitution they have? Some dude wrote a paper 233 years ago and they still do mental gymnastics about how he was right. No wonder they take the bible ad litteram too. Fking hell brother.
I wonder, will Americans ever learn that they can be wrong too? It got to a point where it is pure hubris in the detriment of everything.
In the real world America as a country is the most successful experiment ever attempted. The reason we are so successful is because we do take our constitution seriously. We do not succeed because we are smarter or taller or harder working or because we have more natural resources or better weather. We succeed because we respect our constitution. While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right. The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is. While the Fascists and Communists restricted religious worship, it was the American Bible thumpers who showed up to rescue everyone. Do not be so dismissive towards those who take the Bible seriously.
When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic. This sort of thing seems highly unlikely to younger folks, but I lived through dictatorships in Europe. Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China.
By entrusting your security to American politicians you are showing a degrees of naivete and subservience that we are unwilling to. Politicians are politicians and American politicians are no better than the rest of the world. The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power.
Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to.
The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself.
You may be concerned that guns cause the murders. The data do not back you up.
Non-Hispanic White Americans are the most well armed people in the world, but their murder rate is quite low. It currently sits around 2 per 100,000. Our most populous neighbor, Mexico, sits at 29. The EU sits at 3. So non-Hispanic White Americans commit murders at lower rates than Europeans despite being far better armed.
Guns are not causing the murders. American states and cities have in the past been granted broad powers to restrict gun ownership. During the 1970s - 1990s Washington, DC mostly banned fire arms and watched in terror as its murder rate became the worst in the nation. Meanwhile, rural America, which has the highest per capita gun ownership in the world, has an extremely low murder rate.
If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect.
Are you a troll or are you actually delusional?
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers."
This is a false statement since a true functional democracy makes sure it stays a democracy.
I can speak with experience because I come from the country Norway that is consistently ranked as the most functional democratic country in the world, right next to other Scandinavian countries and majority of European countries rank highest on this index.
In 2020 your country was ranked 36th as a democracy in the world quite low for a country you claim to be "The greatest country in the world"
"While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right."
How is this relevant to anything other then the need you feel to boast about how noble America was during WW1 and 2? Many more countries then just America helped make sure we won WW1 and 2 it was not only America that made that victory happen.
"The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is."
Europe has mass immigration as well and no-one wants to emigrate what's your point ?
The living standard in Europe is far higher then in USA.
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic."
Big words coming from a country that just had an attempted coup to insert a dictator called Trump.
And to claim that we have "disarmed" ourselves is a complete lie. Europe can defend itself extremely well and as I stated above has the most functional democracies in the world unlike your country.
I don't understand where you get this delusion that we are helpless, America is an important part of avoiding war yes but if a war did happen its not like Europe could not defend itself this is complete nonsense. America needs Europe just as much as we need America. Get off your high horse, Europeans helped build your country so stop trying to talk to us as if we owe you a god damn thing. Without us you don't exist in the first place.
"Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China."
Okay first of all Romania became a democracy via majority UNARMED PROTESTS, the masses were NOT ARMED and they still managed to turn their country into a democracy without the use of guns so please stop talking about things you know absolutely nothing about.Riot police were brought in to stop the masses but in many cases ended up joining the protests instead.
And of course there is always a risk someone will try to gain power like in China and Russia, but that's why you build a functional democratic system built on TRUST and not GUNS.
"The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power."
You actually think a armed public can stop a politician from accumulating to much power?.
You actually believe armed civilians would be able to do anything against the professional army of your country? Or do you actually believe no politician currently would dare to "step out of line" and try to get more power because some of you are armed?
You truly live in your own little world don't you? You being armed has absolutely no influence on power politics in your country.
"Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to."
Why do you think we would flee? wait, are you calling us cowards now?
"The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself."
Yeah , imagine if that kid didn't have access to guns he would maybe have had a knife and no one would have died, or maybe it wouldn't not have happened at all because getting a gun would have been so hard for him he would have been picked up by the system and it would never have been allowed to happen.
With super strict gun laws and full control of gun circulation the government can control the risk of these things happening, with full free access to guns there will never be a solution to this problem EVER.
"If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect."
What does this have to do with private citizens being armed or not? These are nations you talk about this would be a military conflict it has nothing to do with private citizens having arms at all.
If my country was under attack any combat able person would get armed immediately.
Also where do you get the notion that you could do with us as you will even if you wanted too, you understand that you would never ever be able to touch a European country because of alliances within Europe and NATO?
You also understand that for the USA to break ties with Europe would be the single most stupidest thing your country could do?
Anyway this is all way off topic I just wanted to correct your stupidity because you are clearly in need of some real education.
I seem to have touched a nerve. I have nothing against Norway. We want Europe as our allies, but are unwilling to disarm for you. If you would like to live in a society without firearms, then please transform your own country or move to a country that bans firearms. We will continue to own ours.
Your own country's military expenditures are exemplary. I believe you spend more per capita on the military than any other country in Europe. I was certainly not trying to call out Norway as a country. Norway is a wonderful country.
Romania's conversion to Democracy was not some peaceful protest. The military literally executed Nicolae Ceaușescu and his wife on camera with a firing squad. So the revolution consisted of those with guns asserting themselves. When you live in a country where the people cannot own firearms then you are subject to the whims of your military. If you believe that people can peacefully remain independent of an armed government then consider what we have witnessed happening in Hong Kong in recent years. Umbrellas will not win you self government. To be fair I doubt if an armed Hong Kong could have preserved its independence against China either. They are just too small. Life and war are team sports and that is why I am thankful to have most of Europe on my team.
Trump was not a dictator. He was a democratic politician who won one election, served for exactly the length of his 4 year term, lost a re-election and then left office. But some day there may be a president who attempts to stay in power after losing an election and he may have the backing of the military and that day we will need our firearms. I hope it never comes to that.
I'm sorry, but the thought of the small percentage of the US populace that would actually be willing to rebel and fight against a dictatorship not just keeping up morale but also having a fighting chance against the best equipped army of the world is ridiculous. You'd loose an infantry battle, let alone win once tanks, planes, missiles, drones and logistics enter the picture.
You are absolutely at the whims of your military, just like every other nation. And like in every other nation the military isn't one homogenuous block and there's a fairly good chance your foot soldiers won't shoot unarmed civilians, a significantly better one than them not shooting armed rebels. There's a reason peaceful protest has established itself as the goto in the 20th century, it had significant successes.
Similarly the thought that our 5%? civilians that are willing to pick up guns but not join the military in case of an invasion would repel the Russian army is pretty funny.
Also if you looked at any statistics you would know that the EU would crush Russia in a head-on military confrontation unless both sides start throwing nukes, which is equally unpredictable as it is unlikely. And China is much more interested in the Pacific than in Europe.
Obviously you can keep your guns and continue to arm the people that fall through your society, but pretending that they work for overthrowing the gov if the military decides to intervene is laughable. And yes statistics prove that they absolutely facilitate large scale violence, even the white populace has almost 3x the homocide rate in the USA compared to Western Europe.
On June 01 2022 23:54 AmericanUmlaut wrote: I've lived about half my life in Germany, and I honestly couldn't identify any meaningful way in which my freedoms are more restricted here.
There is no freedom to choose your basic health insurance plan in Canada. There is in the USA. Got a knee problem that doesn't put you in a wheel chair? Good luck getting an MRI in Canada. As a result, people drive to Buffalo to pay cash for an MRI. Need cataract surgery that has almost completed blinded you? My grandma can't get it in Canada. She paid cash for a cataract procedure in NY so she can now go outside at night. I had to drive her to-and-from the clinic 4 times. For her final assessment recovery visit she actually drove on her own. My grandma can drive again!
We were in the unique position to choose between OHIP and Aetna. Most Canadians do not have that choice. We chose Aetna. Unlike 95%+ Canadians .... we had a choice.
The freedoms in the USA make Canada a better place to live.
You can't buy private health insurance in Canada?
Correct. You can only purchase extended healthcare insurance and dental insurance. So a Canadian is forced into the 5,000 kilometer line ups for hip surgery, cataract eye surgery, and diagnostic MRI's. The solution is to get those procedures.... and many others .... done in the USA.
For health insurance an Ontarian only has one choice : OHIP.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
On May 27 2022 15:57 xsnac wrote:
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
it's called being brainwashed. they are all brainwashed.
An armed population should not exist, no reason in 2022 for having one, or at least I don't see one.
Also, can you imagine they argue about that stupid constitution they have? Some dude wrote a paper 233 years ago and they still do mental gymnastics about how he was right. No wonder they take the bible ad litteram too. Fking hell brother.
I wonder, will Americans ever learn that they can be wrong too? It got to a point where it is pure hubris in the detriment of everything.
In the real world America as a country is the most successful experiment ever attempted. The reason we are so successful is because we do take our constitution seriously. We do not succeed because we are smarter or taller or harder working or because we have more natural resources or better weather. We succeed because we respect our constitution. While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right. The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is. While the Fascists and Communists restricted religious worship, it was the American Bible thumpers who showed up to rescue everyone. Do not be so dismissive towards those who take the Bible seriously.
When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic. This sort of thing seems highly unlikely to younger folks, but I lived through dictatorships in Europe. Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China.
By entrusting your security to American politicians you are showing a degrees of naivete and subservience that we are unwilling to. Politicians are politicians and American politicians are no better than the rest of the world. The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power.
Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to.
The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself.
You may be concerned that guns cause the murders. The data do not back you up.
Non-Hispanic White Americans are the most well armed people in the world, but their murder rate is quite low. It currently sits around 2 per 100,000. Our most populous neighbor, Mexico, sits at 29. The EU sits at 3. So non-Hispanic White Americans commit murders at lower rates than Europeans despite being far better armed.
Guns are not causing the murders. American states and cities have in the past been granted broad powers to restrict gun ownership. During the 1970s - 1990s Washington, DC mostly banned fire arms and watched in terror as its murder rate became the worst in the nation. Meanwhile, rural America, which has the highest per capita gun ownership in the world, has an extremely low murder rate.
If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect.
Are you a troll or are you actually delusional?
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers."
This is a false statement since a true functional democracy makes sure it stays a democracy.
I can speak with experience because I come from the country Norway that is consistently ranked as the most functional democratic country in the world, right next to other Scandinavian countries and majority of European countries rank highest on this index.
In 2020 your country was ranked 36th as a democracy in the world quite low for a country you claim to be "The greatest country in the world"
"While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right."
How is this relevant to anything other then the need you feel to boast about how noble America was during WW1 and 2? Many more countries then just America helped make sure we won WW1 and 2 it was not only America that made that victory happen.
"The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is."
Europe has mass immigration as well and no-one wants to emigrate what's your point ?
The living standard in Europe is far higher then in USA.
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic."
Big words coming from a country that just had an attempted coup to insert a dictator called Trump.
And to claim that we have "disarmed" ourselves is a complete lie. Europe can defend itself extremely well and as I stated above has the most functional democracies in the world unlike your country.
I don't understand where you get this delusion that we are helpless, America is an important part of avoiding war yes but if a war did happen its not like Europe could not defend itself this is complete nonsense. America needs Europe just as much as we need America. Get off your high horse, Europeans helped build your country so stop trying to talk to us as if we owe you a god damn thing. Without us you don't exist in the first place.
"Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China."
Okay first of all Romania became a democracy via majority UNARMED PROTESTS, the masses were NOT ARMED and they still managed to turn their country into a democracy without the use of guns so please stop talking about things you know absolutely nothing about.Riot police were brought in to stop the masses but in many cases ended up joining the protests instead.
And of course there is always a risk someone will try to gain power like in China and Russia, but that's why you build a functional democratic system built on TRUST and not GUNS.
"The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power."
You actually think a armed public can stop a politician from accumulating to much power?.
You actually believe armed civilians would be able to do anything against the professional army of your country? Or do you actually believe no politician currently would dare to "step out of line" and try to get more power because some of you are armed?
You truly live in your own little world don't you? You being armed has absolutely no influence on power politics in your country.
"Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to."
Why do you think we would flee? wait, are you calling us cowards now?
"The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself."
Yeah , imagine if that kid didn't have access to guns he would maybe have had a knife and no one would have died, or maybe it wouldn't not have happened at all because getting a gun would have been so hard for him he would have been picked up by the system and it would never have been allowed to happen.
With super strict gun laws and full control of gun circulation the government can control the risk of these things happening, with full free access to guns there will never be a solution to this problem EVER.
"If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect."
What does this have to do with private citizens being armed or not? These are nations you talk about this would be a military conflict it has nothing to do with private citizens having arms at all.
If my country was under attack any combat able person would get armed immediately.
Also where do you get the notion that you could do with us as you will even if you wanted too, you understand that you would never ever be able to touch a European country because of alliances within Europe and NATO?
You also understand that for the USA to break ties with Europe would be the single most stupidest thing your country could do?
Anyway this is all way off topic I just wanted to correct your stupidity because you are clearly in need of some real education.
I seem to have touched a nerve. I have nothing against Norway. We want Europe as our allies, but are unwilling to disarm for you. If you would like to live in a society without firearms, then please transform your own country or move to a country that bans firearms. We will continue to own ours.
Your own country's military expenditures are exemplary. I believe you spend more per capita on the military than any other country in Europe. I was certainly not trying to call out Norway as a country. Norway is a wonderful country.
Romania's conversion to Democracy was not some peaceful protest. The military literally executed Nicolae Ceaușescu and his wife on camera with a firing squad. So the revolution consisted of those with guns asserting themselves. When you live in a country where the people cannot own firearms then you are subject to the whims of your military. If you believe that people can peacefully remain independent of an armed government then consider what we have witnessed happening in Hong Kong in recent years. Umbrellas will not win you self government. To be fair I doubt if an armed Hong Kong could have preserved its independence against China either. They are just too small. Life and war are team sports and that is why I am thankful to have most of Europe on my team.
Trump was not a dictator. He was a democratic politician who won one election, served for exactly the length of his 4 year term, lost a re-election and then left office. But some day there may be a president who attempts to stay in power after losing an election and he may have the backing of the military and that day we will need our firearms. I hope it never comes to that.
I'm sorry, but the thought of the small percentage of the US populace that would actually be willing to rebel and fight against a dictatorship not just keeping up morale but also having a fighting chance against the best equipped army of the world is ridiculous. You'd loose an infantry battle, let alone win once tanks, planes, missiles, drones and logistics enter the picture.
You are absolutely at the whims of your military, just like every other nation. And like in every other nation the military isn't one homogenuous block and there's a fairly good chance your foot soldiers won't shoot unarmed civilians, a significantly better one than them not shooting armed rebels. There's a reason peaceful protest has established itself as the goto in the 20th century, it had significant successes.
Similarly the thought that our 5%? civilians that are willing to pick up guns but not join the military in case of an invasion would repel the Russian army is pretty funny.
Also if you looked at any statistics you would know that the EU would crush Russia in a head-on military confrontation unless both sides start throwing nukes, which is equally unpredictable as it is unlikely. And China is much more interested in the Pacific than in Europe.
Obviously you can keep your guns and continue to arm the people that fall through your society, but pretending that they work for overthrowing the gov if the military decides to intervene is laughable. And yes statistics prove that they absolutely facilitate large scale violence, even the white populace has almost 3x the homocide rate in the USA compared to Western Europe.
If the Taliban can win its independence from the US military, then I have confidence that 350M Americans with even more firearms can do the same. I agree than an armed EU should be able to hold back Russia in a conventional war.
Trump was not a dictator. He was a democratic politician who won one election, served for exactly the length of his 4 year term, lost a re-election and then left office. But some day there may be a president who attempts to stay in power after losing an election and he may have the backing of the military and that day we will need our firearms. I hope it never comes to that.
I used to buy the argument that guns might be useful in stopping tyranny. But the exact group of people who supported Trump's efforts to forcefully overturn a peaceful, legitimate election are the exact same people who claim they need guns to overthrow tyranny.
I'm a long time lurker and rarely post... I just read about the Tulsa Oklahoma hospital shooting, how the man simply went into a store and bought an AR-15 style rifle yesterday morning before killing people... remembered seeing this thread on TL the other day.
We can only change through agreement not argument, but how can we when our axioms are so fundamentally different (our lived experience) and few of us are able to empathize in the abstract.
For example JimmyJRaynor has likely never been poor in the USA and meadbert has likely never lived outside the USA. Both are delusional about the state of society in the USA (to lesser and greater degrees respectively) -- but how to change anyone's mind?
The Buffalo supermarket shooting, the Uvalde shooting, now this.... pour one out for us boys.
It's not about changing anyone's mind. The gun nuts who don't want the rules to change are a small minority. The problem is structural; America tips its electoral playing field in favor of the rural minority. And among conservatives, people who are pro-guns are rabidly obsessed with their right to own military weapons, whereas people with more mainstream views may agree that guns should be regulated, but aren't necessarily passionate enough about it for the issue to swing their vote. On top of that the gun manufacturers reinvest a lot of their profits to buy a ton of political power.
I don't think you can change the mind of a person who looks at the state of things in America and thinks the daily blood sacrifices to the second amendment are a reasonable price to pay for their sacred right to high muzzle velocities. But since most people already don't agree with them, it's not really necessary to persuade them. I think it's more a question of how you fix the system so that a minority viewpoint no longer carries such power.
On June 03 2022 03:50 AmericanUmlaut wrote: It's not about changing anyone's mind. The gun nuts who don't want the rules to change are a small minority. The problem is structural; America tips its electoral playing field in favor of the rural minority. And among conservatives, people who are pro-guns are rabidly obsessed with their right to own military weapons, whereas people with more mainstream views may agree that guns should be regulated, but aren't necessarily passionate enough about it for the issue to swing their vote. On top of that the gun manufacturers reinvest a lot of their profits to buy a ton of political power.
I don't think you can change the mind of a person who looks at the state of things in America and thinks the daily blood sacrifices to the second amendment are a reasonable price to pay for their sacred right to high muzzle velocities. But since most people already don't agree with them, it's not really necessary to persuade them. I think it's more a question of how you fix the system so that a minority viewpoint no longer carries such power.
as I said like 3 times, nobody takes weapons, away from the fanboys, you just implement some restrictions everywhere. they can have all the weapons they have, just like in every other fking country on this earth. just pass some exams, how come you guys have exams for driving cars but not for "driving" weapons? man, it is getting to a point beyond ridiculous. in 1000 years murica mass shootings will become jokes in space.
On June 03 2022 03:50 AmericanUmlaut wrote: I don't think you can change the mind of a person who looks at the state of things in America and thinks the daily blood sacrifices to the second amendment are a reasonable price to pay for their sacred right to high muzzle velocities.
As I've already posted. Violent crime and murders are way down in New York state. Your stance is not reflected in the #s.
Are there problems in other states? yes. Its up to each individual state to manage their unique problems as New York has.
The above statements while sensible and covering many types of violent crime do not deal with the suicidal mass murderer who has determined beforehand he wants to die during the killing spree. We as a society have to ask ourselves why and how are we producing young men like Alek Minassian, Marc Lepine, and Salvador Rolando Ramos?
Gun control laws won't cure the next Marc Lepine.. the next Alek Minassian or the next Salvador Rolando Ramos. Gun control laws won't make the next Alek Minassian a happy , productive member of society.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
On May 27 2022 15:57 xsnac wrote:
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
it's called being brainwashed. they are all brainwashed.
An armed population should not exist, no reason in 2022 for having one, or at least I don't see one.
Also, can you imagine they argue about that stupid constitution they have? Some dude wrote a paper 233 years ago and they still do mental gymnastics about how he was right. No wonder they take the bible ad litteram too. Fking hell brother.
I wonder, will Americans ever learn that they can be wrong too? It got to a point where it is pure hubris in the detriment of everything.
In the real world America as a country is the most successful experiment ever attempted. The reason we are so successful is because we do take our constitution seriously. We do not succeed because we are smarter or taller or harder working or because we have more natural resources or better weather. We succeed because we respect our constitution. While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right. The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is. While the Fascists and Communists restricted religious worship, it was the American Bible thumpers who showed up to rescue everyone. Do not be so dismissive towards those who take the Bible seriously.
When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic. This sort of thing seems highly unlikely to younger folks, but I lived through dictatorships in Europe. Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China.
By entrusting your security to American politicians you are showing a degrees of naivete and subservience that we are unwilling to. Politicians are politicians and American politicians are no better than the rest of the world. The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power.
Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to.
The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself.
You may be concerned that guns cause the murders. The data do not back you up.
Non-Hispanic White Americans are the most well armed people in the world, but their murder rate is quite low. It currently sits around 2 per 100,000. Our most populous neighbor, Mexico, sits at 29. The EU sits at 3. So non-Hispanic White Americans commit murders at lower rates than Europeans despite being far better armed.
Guns are not causing the murders. American states and cities have in the past been granted broad powers to restrict gun ownership. During the 1970s - 1990s Washington, DC mostly banned fire arms and watched in terror as its murder rate became the worst in the nation. Meanwhile, rural America, which has the highest per capita gun ownership in the world, has an extremely low murder rate.
If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect.
Are you a troll or are you actually delusional?
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers."
This is a false statement since a true functional democracy makes sure it stays a democracy.
I can speak with experience because I come from the country Norway that is consistently ranked as the most functional democratic country in the world, right next to other Scandinavian countries and majority of European countries rank highest on this index.
In 2020 your country was ranked 36th as a democracy in the world quite low for a country you claim to be "The greatest country in the world"
"While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right."
How is this relevant to anything other then the need you feel to boast about how noble America was during WW1 and 2? Many more countries then just America helped make sure we won WW1 and 2 it was not only America that made that victory happen.
"The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is."
Europe has mass immigration as well and no-one wants to emigrate what's your point ?
The living standard in Europe is far higher then in USA.
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic."
Big words coming from a country that just had an attempted coup to insert a dictator called Trump.
And to claim that we have "disarmed" ourselves is a complete lie. Europe can defend itself extremely well and as I stated above has the most functional democracies in the world unlike your country.
I don't understand where you get this delusion that we are helpless, America is an important part of avoiding war yes but if a war did happen its not like Europe could not defend itself this is complete nonsense. America needs Europe just as much as we need America. Get off your high horse, Europeans helped build your country so stop trying to talk to us as if we owe you a god damn thing. Without us you don't exist in the first place.
"Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China."
Okay first of all Romania became a democracy via majority UNARMED PROTESTS, the masses were NOT ARMED and they still managed to turn their country into a democracy without the use of guns so please stop talking about things you know absolutely nothing about.Riot police were brought in to stop the masses but in many cases ended up joining the protests instead.
And of course there is always a risk someone will try to gain power like in China and Russia, but that's why you build a functional democratic system built on TRUST and not GUNS.
"The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power."
You actually think a armed public can stop a politician from accumulating to much power?.
You actually believe armed civilians would be able to do anything against the professional army of your country? Or do you actually believe no politician currently would dare to "step out of line" and try to get more power because some of you are armed?
You truly live in your own little world don't you? You being armed has absolutely no influence on power politics in your country.
"Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to."
Why do you think we would flee? wait, are you calling us cowards now?
"The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself."
Yeah , imagine if that kid didn't have access to guns he would maybe have had a knife and no one would have died, or maybe it wouldn't not have happened at all because getting a gun would have been so hard for him he would have been picked up by the system and it would never have been allowed to happen.
With super strict gun laws and full control of gun circulation the government can control the risk of these things happening, with full free access to guns there will never be a solution to this problem EVER.
"If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect."
What does this have to do with private citizens being armed or not? These are nations you talk about this would be a military conflict it has nothing to do with private citizens having arms at all.
If my country was under attack any combat able person would get armed immediately.
Also where do you get the notion that you could do with us as you will even if you wanted too, you understand that you would never ever be able to touch a European country because of alliances within Europe and NATO?
You also understand that for the USA to break ties with Europe would be the single most stupidest thing your country could do?
Anyway this is all way off topic I just wanted to correct your stupidity because you are clearly in need of some real education.
I seem to have touched a nerve. I have nothing against Norway. We want Europe as our allies, but are unwilling to disarm for you. If you would like to live in a society without firearms, then please transform your own country or move to a country that bans firearms. We will continue to own ours.
Your own country's military expenditures are exemplary. I believe you spend more per capita on the military than any other country in Europe. I was certainly not trying to call out Norway as a country. Norway is a wonderful country.
Romania's conversion to Democracy was not some peaceful protest. The military literally executed Nicolae Ceaușescu and his wife on camera with a firing squad. So the revolution consisted of those with guns asserting themselves. When you live in a country where the people cannot own firearms then you are subject to the whims of your military. If you believe that people can peacefully remain independent of an armed government then consider what we have witnessed happening in Hong Kong in recent years. Umbrellas will not win you self government. To be fair I doubt if an armed Hong Kong could have preserved its independence against China either. They are just too small. Life and war are team sports and that is why I am thankful to have most of Europe on my team.
Trump was not a dictator. He was a democratic politician who won one election, served for exactly the length of his 4 year term, lost a re-election and then left office. But some day there may be a president who attempts to stay in power after losing an election and he may have the backing of the military and that day we will need our firearms. I hope it never comes to that.
I'm sorry, but the thought of the small percentage of the US populace that would actually be willing to rebel and fight against a dictatorship not just keeping up morale but also having a fighting chance against the best equipped army of the world is ridiculous. You'd loose an infantry battle, let alone win once tanks, planes, missiles, drones and logistics enter the picture.
You are absolutely at the whims of your military, just like every other nation. And like in every other nation the military isn't one homogenuous block and there's a fairly good chance your foot soldiers won't shoot unarmed civilians, a significantly better one than them not shooting armed rebels. There's a reason peaceful protest has established itself as the goto in the 20th century, it had significant successes.
Similarly the thought that our 5%? civilians that are willing to pick up guns but not join the military in case of an invasion would repel the Russian army is pretty funny.
Also if you looked at any statistics you would know that the EU would crush Russia in a head-on military confrontation unless both sides start throwing nukes, which is equally unpredictable as it is unlikely. And China is much more interested in the Pacific than in Europe.
Obviously you can keep your guns and continue to arm the people that fall through your society, but pretending that they work for overthrowing the gov if the military decides to intervene is laughable. And yes statistics prove that they absolutely facilitate large scale violence, even the white populace has almost 3x the homocide rate in the USA compared to Western Europe.
If the Taliban can win its independence from the US military, then I have confidence that 350M Americans with even more firearms can do the same. I agree than an armed EU should be able to hold back Russia in a conventional war.
The Taliban "won" because the majority of the US populace didn't want the war anymore, the army was there instead of home aka expensive to supply and the government didn't see a large advantage anymore to staying there. None of these apply to a war at home and at no point in time the Taliban were even close to make a dent in the US military. They just mostly waited them out while in hiding. Afghanistan wasn't Vietnam where the US military took serious losses, over the course of 20 years the USA lost 2420 men.
An armed rebellion of the few that are nuts enough to go against the US military would have as much effect as Malcom X and his group of terrorists had. If the US citizens were willing to defend their freedom they would have fought against patriot act and it's successors that are still in place, or the fact that presidential decrees more and more override the checks and balances by doing things they aren't legally allowed to. But the only civil war the US is going to get in the next 50 years is the left vs right one and if a dictator takes the scepter as a result half of the populace will celebrate him.
On June 03 2022 03:50 AmericanUmlaut wrote: I don't think you can change the mind of a person who looks at the state of things in America and thinks the daily blood sacrifices to the second amendment are a reasonable price to pay for their sacred right to high muzzle velocities.
As I've already posted. Violent crime and murders are way down in New York state. Your stance is not reflected in the #s.
Are there problems in other states? yes. Its up to each individual state to manage their unique problems as New York has.
The above statements while sensible and covering many types of violent crime do not deal with the suicidal mass murderer who has determined beforehand he wants to die during the killing spree. We as a society have to ask ourselves why and how are we producing young men like Alek Minassian, Marc Lepine, and Salvador Rolando Ramos?
Gun control laws won't cure the next Marc Lepine.. the next Alek Minassian or the next Salvador Rolando Ramos. Gun control laws won't make the next Alek Minassian a happy , productive member of society.
Gun control laws will reduce the amount of harm the next Salvador Rolando Ramos is able to do. That's all it is about, if Ramos had a single shot weapon he had to get a permit for he could have shot one person and then would have been overwhelmed. But you don't charge at someone with an assault rifle.
Obviously the USA has societal problems, because yes, f.e. Switzerland has a fairly lax weapon laws and almost a quarter of the weapons per capita (which means it's in the top 20) and nowhere near the homocide rates. But Switzerland doesn't sell ammo for these guns anymore, has the highest wealth per capita, has the 20th lowest income inequality, unemployment below 3% and ranks high on education. Similarly Austria has a lot of guns per capita too (similar amounts), but the only accessible ones are handguns. Both are small fairly rich countries that have nothing to do with the USA with it's drug problems that have been rampant for a century, multi-ethnic but low integration society and top score in income inequality among larger western nations.
So yes, the school shootings hint at some serious problems in your education and society. But there wouldn't be any shootings if the guys didn't have guns and a guy running amok with a knife is far less deadly than someone running around with an AR-15 and lowering the amount of deadly weapons for everyone is (tough but) more realistic than making sure that no psycho falls through your so far pretty much nonexistant social nets.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
On May 27 2022 15:57 xsnac wrote:
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
it's called being brainwashed. they are all brainwashed.
An armed population should not exist, no reason in 2022 for having one, or at least I don't see one.
Also, can you imagine they argue about that stupid constitution they have? Some dude wrote a paper 233 years ago and they still do mental gymnastics about how he was right. No wonder they take the bible ad litteram too. Fking hell brother.
I wonder, will Americans ever learn that they can be wrong too? It got to a point where it is pure hubris in the detriment of everything.
In the real world America as a country is the most successful experiment ever attempted. The reason we are so successful is because we do take our constitution seriously. We do not succeed because we are smarter or taller or harder working or because we have more natural resources or better weather. We succeed because we respect our constitution. While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right. The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is. While the Fascists and Communists restricted religious worship, it was the American Bible thumpers who showed up to rescue everyone. Do not be so dismissive towards those who take the Bible seriously.
When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic. This sort of thing seems highly unlikely to younger folks, but I lived through dictatorships in Europe. Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China.
By entrusting your security to American politicians you are showing a degrees of naivete and subservience that we are unwilling to. Politicians are politicians and American politicians are no better than the rest of the world. The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power.
Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to.
The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself.
You may be concerned that guns cause the murders. The data do not back you up.
Non-Hispanic White Americans are the most well armed people in the world, but their murder rate is quite low. It currently sits around 2 per 100,000. Our most populous neighbor, Mexico, sits at 29. The EU sits at 3. So non-Hispanic White Americans commit murders at lower rates than Europeans despite being far better armed.
Guns are not causing the murders. American states and cities have in the past been granted broad powers to restrict gun ownership. During the 1970s - 1990s Washington, DC mostly banned fire arms and watched in terror as its murder rate became the worst in the nation. Meanwhile, rural America, which has the highest per capita gun ownership in the world, has an extremely low murder rate.
If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect.
Are you a troll or are you actually delusional?
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers."
This is a false statement since a true functional democracy makes sure it stays a democracy.
I can speak with experience because I come from the country Norway that is consistently ranked as the most functional democratic country in the world, right next to other Scandinavian countries and majority of European countries rank highest on this index.
In 2020 your country was ranked 36th as a democracy in the world quite low for a country you claim to be "The greatest country in the world"
"While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right."
How is this relevant to anything other then the need you feel to boast about how noble America was during WW1 and 2? Many more countries then just America helped make sure we won WW1 and 2 it was not only America that made that victory happen.
"The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is."
Europe has mass immigration as well and no-one wants to emigrate what's your point ?
The living standard in Europe is far higher then in USA.
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic."
Big words coming from a country that just had an attempted coup to insert a dictator called Trump.
And to claim that we have "disarmed" ourselves is a complete lie. Europe can defend itself extremely well and as I stated above has the most functional democracies in the world unlike your country.
I don't understand where you get this delusion that we are helpless, America is an important part of avoiding war yes but if a war did happen its not like Europe could not defend itself this is complete nonsense. America needs Europe just as much as we need America. Get off your high horse, Europeans helped build your country so stop trying to talk to us as if we owe you a god damn thing. Without us you don't exist in the first place.
"Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China."
Okay first of all Romania became a democracy via majority UNARMED PROTESTS, the masses were NOT ARMED and they still managed to turn their country into a democracy without the use of guns so please stop talking about things you know absolutely nothing about.Riot police were brought in to stop the masses but in many cases ended up joining the protests instead.
And of course there is always a risk someone will try to gain power like in China and Russia, but that's why you build a functional democratic system built on TRUST and not GUNS.
"The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power."
You actually think a armed public can stop a politician from accumulating to much power?.
You actually believe armed civilians would be able to do anything against the professional army of your country? Or do you actually believe no politician currently would dare to "step out of line" and try to get more power because some of you are armed?
You truly live in your own little world don't you? You being armed has absolutely no influence on power politics in your country.
"Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to."
Why do you think we would flee? wait, are you calling us cowards now?
"The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself."
Yeah , imagine if that kid didn't have access to guns he would maybe have had a knife and no one would have died, or maybe it wouldn't not have happened at all because getting a gun would have been so hard for him he would have been picked up by the system and it would never have been allowed to happen.
With super strict gun laws and full control of gun circulation the government can control the risk of these things happening, with full free access to guns there will never be a solution to this problem EVER.
"If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect."
What does this have to do with private citizens being armed or not? These are nations you talk about this would be a military conflict it has nothing to do with private citizens having arms at all.
If my country was under attack any combat able person would get armed immediately.
Also where do you get the notion that you could do with us as you will even if you wanted too, you understand that you would never ever be able to touch a European country because of alliances within Europe and NATO?
You also understand that for the USA to break ties with Europe would be the single most stupidest thing your country could do?
Anyway this is all way off topic I just wanted to correct your stupidity because you are clearly in need of some real education.
I seem to have touched a nerve. I have nothing against Norway. We want Europe as our allies, but are unwilling to disarm for you. If you would like to live in a society without firearms, then please transform your own country or move to a country that bans firearms. We will continue to own ours.
Your own country's military expenditures are exemplary. I believe you spend more per capita on the military than any other country in Europe. I was certainly not trying to call out Norway as a country. Norway is a wonderful country.
Romania's conversion to Democracy was not some peaceful protest. The military literally executed Nicolae Ceaușescu and his wife on camera with a firing squad. So the revolution consisted of those with guns asserting themselves. When you live in a country where the people cannot own firearms then you are subject to the whims of your military. If you believe that people can peacefully remain independent of an armed government then consider what we have witnessed happening in Hong Kong in recent years. Umbrellas will not win you self government. To be fair I doubt if an armed Hong Kong could have preserved its independence against China either. They are just too small. Life and war are team sports and that is why I am thankful to have most of Europe on my team.
Trump was not a dictator. He was a democratic politician who won one election, served for exactly the length of his 4 year term, lost a re-election and then left office. But some day there may be a president who attempts to stay in power after losing an election and he may have the backing of the military and that day we will need our firearms. I hope it never comes to that.
I'm sorry, but the thought of the small percentage of the US populace that would actually be willing to rebel and fight against a dictatorship not just keeping up morale but also having a fighting chance against the best equipped army of the world is ridiculous. You'd loose an infantry battle, let alone win once tanks, planes, missiles, drones and logistics enter the picture.
You are absolutely at the whims of your military, just like every other nation. And like in every other nation the military isn't one homogenuous block and there's a fairly good chance your foot soldiers won't shoot unarmed civilians, a significantly better one than them not shooting armed rebels. There's a reason peaceful protest has established itself as the goto in the 20th century, it had significant successes.
Similarly the thought that our 5%? civilians that are willing to pick up guns but not join the military in case of an invasion would repel the Russian army is pretty funny.
Also if you looked at any statistics you would know that the EU would crush Russia in a head-on military confrontation unless both sides start throwing nukes, which is equally unpredictable as it is unlikely. And China is much more interested in the Pacific than in Europe.
Obviously you can keep your guns and continue to arm the people that fall through your society, but pretending that they work for overthrowing the gov if the military decides to intervene is laughable. And yes statistics prove that they absolutely facilitate large scale violence, even the white populace has almost 3x the homocide rate in the USA compared to Western Europe.
If the Taliban can win its independence from the US military, then I have confidence that 350M Americans with even more firearms can do the same. I agree than an armed EU should be able to hold back Russia in a conventional war.
The Taliban "won" because the majority of the US populace didn't want the war anymore, the army was there instead of home aka expensive to supply and the government didn't see a large advantage anymore to staying there. None of these apply to a war at home and at no point in time the Taliban were even close to make a dent in the US military. They just mostly waited them out while in hiding. Afghanistan wasn't Vietnam where the US military took serious losses, over the course of 20 years the USA lost 2420 men.
An armed rebellion of the few that are nuts enough to go against the US military would have as much effect as Malcom X and his group of terrorists had. If the US citizens were willing to defend their freedom they would have fought against patriot act and it's successors that are still in place, or the fact that presidential decrees more and more override the checks and balances by doing things they aren't legally allowed to. But the only civil war the US is going to get in the next 50 years is the left vs right one and if a dictator takes the scepter as a result half of the populace will celebrate him.
You, sir, are a wise man. If its 50-50 the side with the military wins but if it is 80-20 my money is on the well armed 80. I totally agree with you about the patriot act. Flying in the US is completely disgusting. 4 year olds have more rights at daycare than Americans do and if you don't get out of your seat fast enough they will beat the crap out of you. Some of the disagreement about gun control is European attitudes vs American attitudes but a lot is generational. We have Germans in the chat who feel so confident in their government that they are willing to disarm, but I am an old man whose wife lost 4 great grandparents in the holocaust and whose grandparents barely survived it. To me the 40s is recent history. My father-in-law was raised an orphan because of this stuff and I am unconvinced that human natute has changed.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
On May 27 2022 15:57 xsnac wrote:
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
it's called being brainwashed. they are all brainwashed.
An armed population should not exist, no reason in 2022 for having one, or at least I don't see one.
Also, can you imagine they argue about that stupid constitution they have? Some dude wrote a paper 233 years ago and they still do mental gymnastics about how he was right. No wonder they take the bible ad litteram too. Fking hell brother.
I wonder, will Americans ever learn that they can be wrong too? It got to a point where it is pure hubris in the detriment of everything.
In the real world America as a country is the most successful experiment ever attempted. The reason we are so successful is because we do take our constitution seriously. We do not succeed because we are smarter or taller or harder working or because we have more natural resources or better weather. We succeed because we respect our constitution. While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right. The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is. While the Fascists and Communists restricted religious worship, it was the American Bible thumpers who showed up to rescue everyone. Do not be so dismissive towards those who take the Bible seriously.
When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic. This sort of thing seems highly unlikely to younger folks, but I lived through dictatorships in Europe. Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China.
By entrusting your security to American politicians you are showing a degrees of naivete and subservience that we are unwilling to. Politicians are politicians and American politicians are no better than the rest of the world. The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power.
Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to.
The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself.
You may be concerned that guns cause the murders. The data do not back you up.
Non-Hispanic White Americans are the most well armed people in the world, but their murder rate is quite low. It currently sits around 2 per 100,000. Our most populous neighbor, Mexico, sits at 29. The EU sits at 3. So non-Hispanic White Americans commit murders at lower rates than Europeans despite being far better armed.
Guns are not causing the murders. American states and cities have in the past been granted broad powers to restrict gun ownership. During the 1970s - 1990s Washington, DC mostly banned fire arms and watched in terror as its murder rate became the worst in the nation. Meanwhile, rural America, which has the highest per capita gun ownership in the world, has an extremely low murder rate.
If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect.
Are you a troll or are you actually delusional?
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers."
This is a false statement since a true functional democracy makes sure it stays a democracy.
I can speak with experience because I come from the country Norway that is consistently ranked as the most functional democratic country in the world, right next to other Scandinavian countries and majority of European countries rank highest on this index.
In 2020 your country was ranked 36th as a democracy in the world quite low for a country you claim to be "The greatest country in the world"
"While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right."
How is this relevant to anything other then the need you feel to boast about how noble America was during WW1 and 2? Many more countries then just America helped make sure we won WW1 and 2 it was not only America that made that victory happen.
"The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is."
Europe has mass immigration as well and no-one wants to emigrate what's your point ?
The living standard in Europe is far higher then in USA.
"When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic."
Big words coming from a country that just had an attempted coup to insert a dictator called Trump.
And to claim that we have "disarmed" ourselves is a complete lie. Europe can defend itself extremely well and as I stated above has the most functional democracies in the world unlike your country.
I don't understand where you get this delusion that we are helpless, America is an important part of avoiding war yes but if a war did happen its not like Europe could not defend itself this is complete nonsense. America needs Europe just as much as we need America. Get off your high horse, Europeans helped build your country so stop trying to talk to us as if we owe you a god damn thing. Without us you don't exist in the first place.
"Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China."
Okay first of all Romania became a democracy via majority UNARMED PROTESTS, the masses were NOT ARMED and they still managed to turn their country into a democracy without the use of guns so please stop talking about things you know absolutely nothing about.Riot police were brought in to stop the masses but in many cases ended up joining the protests instead.
And of course there is always a risk someone will try to gain power like in China and Russia, but that's why you build a functional democratic system built on TRUST and not GUNS.
"The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power."
You actually think a armed public can stop a politician from accumulating to much power?.
You actually believe armed civilians would be able to do anything against the professional army of your country? Or do you actually believe no politician currently would dare to "step out of line" and try to get more power because some of you are armed?
You truly live in your own little world don't you? You being armed has absolutely no influence on power politics in your country.
"Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to."
Why do you think we would flee? wait, are you calling us cowards now?
"The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself."
Yeah , imagine if that kid didn't have access to guns he would maybe have had a knife and no one would have died, or maybe it wouldn't not have happened at all because getting a gun would have been so hard for him he would have been picked up by the system and it would never have been allowed to happen.
With super strict gun laws and full control of gun circulation the government can control the risk of these things happening, with full free access to guns there will never be a solution to this problem EVER.
"If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect."
What does this have to do with private citizens being armed or not? These are nations you talk about this would be a military conflict it has nothing to do with private citizens having arms at all.
If my country was under attack any combat able person would get armed immediately.
Also where do you get the notion that you could do with us as you will even if you wanted too, you understand that you would never ever be able to touch a European country because of alliances within Europe and NATO?
You also understand that for the USA to break ties with Europe would be the single most stupidest thing your country could do?
Anyway this is all way off topic I just wanted to correct your stupidity because you are clearly in need of some real education.
I seem to have touched a nerve. I have nothing against Norway. We want Europe as our allies, but are unwilling to disarm for you. If you would like to live in a society without firearms, then please transform your own country or move to a country that bans firearms. We will continue to own ours.
Your own country's military expenditures are exemplary. I believe you spend more per capita on the military than any other country in Europe. I was certainly not trying to call out Norway as a country. Norway is a wonderful country.
Romania's conversion to Democracy was not some peaceful protest. The military literally executed Nicolae Ceaușescu and his wife on camera with a firing squad. So the revolution consisted of those with guns asserting themselves. When you live in a country where the people cannot own firearms then you are subject to the whims of your military. If you believe that people can peacefully remain independent of an armed government then consider what we have witnessed happening in Hong Kong in recent years. Umbrellas will not win you self government. To be fair I doubt if an armed Hong Kong could have preserved its independence against China either. They are just too small. Life and war are team sports and that is why I am thankful to have most of Europe on my team.
Trump was not a dictator. He was a democratic politician who won one election, served for exactly the length of his 4 year term, lost a re-election and then left office. But some day there may be a president who attempts to stay in power after losing an election and he may have the backing of the military and that day we will need our firearms. I hope it never comes to that.
I'm sorry, but the thought of the small percentage of the US populace that would actually be willing to rebel and fight against a dictatorship not just keeping up morale but also having a fighting chance against the best equipped army of the world is ridiculous. You'd loose an infantry battle, let alone win once tanks, planes, missiles, drones and logistics enter the picture.
You are absolutely at the whims of your military, just like every other nation. And like in every other nation the military isn't one homogenuous block and there's a fairly good chance your foot soldiers won't shoot unarmed civilians, a significantly better one than them not shooting armed rebels. There's a reason peaceful protest has established itself as the goto in the 20th century, it had significant successes.
Similarly the thought that our 5%? civilians that are willing to pick up guns but not join the military in case of an invasion would repel the Russian army is pretty funny.
Also if you looked at any statistics you would know that the EU would crush Russia in a head-on military confrontation unless both sides start throwing nukes, which is equally unpredictable as it is unlikely. And China is much more interested in the Pacific than in Europe.
Obviously you can keep your guns and continue to arm the people that fall through your society, but pretending that they work for overthrowing the gov if the military decides to intervene is laughable. And yes statistics prove that they absolutely facilitate large scale violence, even the white populace has almost 3x the homocide rate in the USA compared to Western Europe.
If the Taliban can win its independence from the US military, then I have confidence that 350M Americans with even more firearms can do the same. I agree than an armed EU should be able to hold back Russia in a conventional war.
The Taliban "won" because the majority of the US populace didn't want the war anymore, the army was there instead of home aka expensive to supply and the government didn't see a large advantage anymore to staying there. None of these apply to a war at home and at no point in time the Taliban were even close to make a dent in the US military. They just mostly waited them out while in hiding. Afghanistan wasn't Vietnam where the US military took serious losses, over the course of 20 years the USA lost 2420 men.
An armed rebellion of the few that are nuts enough to go against the US military would have as much effect as Malcom X and his group of terrorists had. If the US citizens were willing to defend their freedom they would have fought against patriot act and it's successors that are still in place, or the fact that presidential decrees more and more override the checks and balances by doing things they aren't legally allowed to. But the only civil war the US is going to get in the next 50 years is the left vs right one and if a dictator takes the scepter as a result half of the populace will celebrate him.
You, sir, are a wise man. If its 50-50 the side with the military wins but if it is 80-20 my money is on the well armed 80. I totally agree with you about the patriot act. Flying in the US is completely disgusting. 4 year olds have more rights at daycare than Americans do and if you don't get out of your seat fast enough they will beat the crap out of you. Some of the disagreement about gun control is European attitudes vs American attitudes but a lot is generational. We have Germans in the chat who feel so confident in their government that they are willing to disarm, but I am an old man whose wife lost 4 great grandparents in the holocaust and whose grandparents barely survived it. To me the 40s is recent history. My father-in-law was raised an orphan because of this stuff and I am unconvinced that human natute has changed.
Thank you. I get your attitude, I wish one of the attempts to kill Hitler would have succeeded earlier. But even then I don't think large scale armed rebellion was ever in the cards, let alone going to be successful, the Nazis did have large scale support, most of the people who could have rebelled were part of the Wehrmacht and the conservative army heads would have gladly crushed any rebellion. And while I think that the current USA is nowhere comparable in both the rigidity of the military as well as the totalitarianism of it's system, I get the desire to feel like you can do something against it if it becomes unbearable and there imo has been a trend ever since 9/11 at the latest towards removal of checks and balances and limitless information gathering. The USA isn't alone in this either, the EU is trying to force backdoors into Telegram atm and Vodafone now provides advertiser with trackable IDs.
The problem is that I don't think 80-20 wins vs the military nowadays, the US army beat similar odds over and over against conventional military and the US citizens would be worse organized and worse equipped. I think peaceful continued demonstrations of the 80 have way better chances of both occurring as well as succeeding because the less violent they are the more likely they are at gathering support from the military, which imo is the kingmaker in the end and has been for the vast majority of rebellions.
Yeah my flights into the USA (not the stays) have been unpleasant again and again, you just get treated like a convict all throughout the process. It's both degrading and ridiculous. The taps into privately protected areas and backdoors into common communication paths just makes privacy a farce. But that's what you get when nobody really cares and the guy who sacrificed his very pleasant position to showcase how bad it is has to run from his home country instead of the people who break the law.
On June 03 2022 07:27 Archeon wrote: Gun control laws will reduce the amount of harm the next Salvador Rolando Ramos is able to do. That's all it is about, if Ramos had a single shot weapon he had to get a permit for he could have shot one person and then would have been overwhelmed. But you don't charge at someone with an assault rifle.
Ramos just hops in a minivan... does an Alek Minassian and kills just as many people.
Now, if one can get to the root of the problem we don't have to worry about minivans or guns killing and injury many people all in 1 brutal act of murder suicide.
The younger the people are ... the more society as a whole must take stock of how we produced these teeaged psychos. We are not talking Ted Bundy here.
Once someone has decided to commit suicide... we are at their mercy. No punishment will deter them.. they already want to die.
On June 03 2022 07:27 Archeon wrote:has the highest wealth per capita, has the 20th lowest income inequality, unemployment below 3%
good points here. when economic opportunity rises ... violent crime falls.
On June 03 2022 07:27 Archeon wrote: So yes, the school shootings hint at some serious problems in your education and society. But there wouldn't be any shootings if the guys didn't have guns and a guy running amok with a knife is far less deadly than someone running around with an AR-15 and lowering the amount of deadly weapons for everyone is (tough but) more realistic than making sure that no psycho falls through your so far pretty much nonexistant social nets.
libertarians need to realize that nurturing the self esteem of others helps maintain and grow their own self esteem. so in a way... we are "our brothers keeper"... "love thy neighbour" ... etc etc.
this is the thin end of the wedge that gets libertarians, billionaires, and conservatives to think about what they can do to help out the lowest income and/or least able members of their local community
The left wingers//liberals need to be open to solutions that involve less government interference in the economy.
IMO, this is how a common bridge between the left and right must be built. Once this common ground is built we can look at the best ways to give the best opportunities to the lowest income people.
- Ask Activision to implement more gameplay variation to Call of Duty multiplayer instead of shooting people in the face to score points. Give tax incentives to gaming publishers that create or maintain real time strategy games instead. Bonus points for futuristic or sci fi. Children will once again grow up learning valuable skills and solve problems rather than just clicking a dot with your dot first and seeing a face explode in gory detail.
- Demand an end to Hollywood's obsession with gun violence. Protagonists that defeat the antagonist with guns should be put on the script backburner. Directors that don't meet the quality of Tarkovsky or Bergman should be questioned "by committee" and given one more chance. This would elevate the art form and force movies to once again go back to being intellectually challenging without all of the violence and gratuity.
On June 03 2022 11:49 Husyelt wrote: - Ask Activision to implement more gameplay variation to Call of Duty multiplayer instead of shooting people in the face to score points. Give tax incentives to gaming publishers that create or maintain real time strategy games instead. Bonus points for futuristic or sci fi. Children will once again grow up learning valuable skills and solve problems rather than just clicking a dot with your dot first and seeing a face explode in gory detail.
- Demand an end to Hollywood's obsession with gun violence. Protagonists that defeat the antagonist with guns should be put on the script backburner. Directors that don't meet the quality of Tarkovsky or Bergman should be questioned "by committee" and given one more chance. This would elevate the art form and force movies to once again go back to being intellectually challenging without all of the violence and gratuity.
I take it you're joking but honestly I think it HAS gotten out of control. Especially all the cop dramas on TV where everything is murder murder shootout murder. I remember reflexively opposing the witch hunts against violent video games that happened after Columbine, but I think at this point we have to take a searching look at ourselves as a society that includes the entertainment we consume. I know some will answer "other countries also consume violent entertainment yet don't have mass shootings", but this is a deep problem that we have to tackle from many angles even if reducing guns should be first priority.
On June 03 2022 07:27 Archeon wrote: Gun control laws will reduce the amount of harm the next Salvador Rolando Ramos is able to do. That's all it is about, if Ramos had a single shot weapon he had to get a permit for he could have shot one person and then would have been overwhelmed. But you don't charge at someone with an assault rifle.
Ramos just hops in a minivan... does an Alek Minassian and kills just as many people.
Now, if one can get to the root of the problem we don't have to worry about minivans or guns killing and injury many people all in 1 brutal act of murder suicide.
The younger the people are ... the more society as a whole must take stock of how we produced these teeaged psychos. We are not talking Ted Bundy here.
Once someone has decided to commit suicide... we are at their mercy. No punishment will deter them.. they already want to die.
On June 03 2022 07:27 Archeon wrote: So yes, the school shootings hint at some serious problems in your education and society. But there wouldn't be any shootings if the guys didn't have guns and a guy running amok with a knife is far less deadly than someone running around with an AR-15 and lowering the amount of deadly weapons for everyone is (tough but) more realistic than making sure that no psycho falls through your so far pretty much nonexistant social nets.
libertarians need to realize that nurturing the self esteem of others helps maintain and grow their own self esteem. so in a way... we are "our brothers keeper"... "love thy neighbour" ... etc etc.
this is the thin end of the wedge that gets libertarians, billionaires, and conservatives to think about what they can do to help out the lowest income and/or least able members of their local community
The left wingers//liberals need to be open to solutions that involve less government interference in the economy.
IMO, this is how a common bridge between the left and right must be built. Once this common ground is built we can look at the best ways to give the best opportunities to the lowest income people.
Saying that the suicidal psychopath could just drive a minivan into a crowd and kill just as many people is very easy to say but there's little reason to believe this would happen. Malcolm Gladwell has a chapter in his book Talking With Strangers where he discusses the idea of coupling theory with suicide. Paraphrasing: In England a popular way to kill yourself used to be to stick your head in a coal gas oven and inhale the carbon monoxide until you died. It accounted for over 40% of suicides. Eventually England transitioned away from coal gas and made this method of suicide impossible. Sure, people could have still slit their wrists or hung themselves, but then didn't. At the same time coal gas was phased out the suicide rate also dropped steadily. Just being suicidal often isn't enough, it needs to be coupled with a means to easily do it.
Being a suicidal psychopath and wanting to go out in a blaze of infamy is probably coupled to how easy it is to obtain a firearm and go on a shooting spree. They could kill people by other means but the fact is they don't. I doubt if guns were harder to obtain we're be having almost daily threads of mini-van rampagers. You just have to ask yourself - since these shooters often kill themselves quickly as the police are closing in so they don't rot in prison, how exactly does someone in a mini-van kill themselves quickly without a gun?
On June 03 2022 07:27 Archeon wrote: Gun control laws will reduce the amount of harm the next Salvador Rolando Ramos is able to do. That's all it is about, if Ramos had a single shot weapon he had to get a permit for he could have shot one person and then would have been overwhelmed. But you don't charge at someone with an assault rifle.
Ramos just hops in a minivan... does an Alek Minassian and kills just as many people.
Now, if one can get to the root of the problem we don't have to worry about minivans or guns killing and injury many people all in 1 brutal act of murder suicide.
The younger the people are ... the more society as a whole must take stock of how we produced these teeaged psychos. We are not talking Ted Bundy here.
Once someone has decided to commit suicide... we are at their mercy. No punishment will deter them.. they already want to die.
Ramos killed significantly more people than Minassian and Minassion killed more people with a vehicle than anyone else in Canada's history. It's also easier to stop someone with a Van than with a gun as seen by the fact that Ramos also shot a bunch of cops that tried to. So yes taking guns away would significantly reduce the amount of victims.
To boot I don't think the two are really comparable, Ramos was a typical school shooter in a lot of ways, he got bullied and was isolated in school and later on cracked and went there to take revenge. Like other school shooters he apparently had a strong emotional connection to the place where he ran amok, but it's tough to kill people with a minivan in school. The trial couldn't find out why Minassian did what he did, but by every parameter he's an outlier outside of the autism perhaps.
There's also the fact that opportunity (and culture) creates intent and changes the way we think. If a gun is easy to come by you're much more likely to think about using it.
On June 03 2022 07:27 Archeon wrote: So yes, the school shootings hint at some serious problems in your education and society. But there wouldn't be any shootings if the guys didn't have guns and a guy running amok with a knife is far less deadly than someone running around with an AR-15 and lowering the amount of deadly weapons for everyone is (tough but) more realistic than making sure that no psycho falls through your so far pretty much nonexistant social nets.
libertarians need to realize that nurturing the self esteem of others helps maintain and grow their own self esteem. so in a way... we are "our brothers keeper"... "love thy neighbour" ... etc etc.
this is the thin end of the wedge that gets libertarians, billionaires, and conservatives to think about what they can do to help out the lowest income and/or least able members of their local community
The left wingers//liberals need to be open to solutions that involve less government interference in the economy.
IMO, this is how a common bridge between the left and right must be built. Once this common ground is built we can look at the best ways to give the best opportunities to the lowest income people.
Again agreed that a better economy would help reduce violence. But the USA has an amazing economy even by first world standards and still has more homocides than any other first world country. So while yes, economic problems (and social isolation) tend to be a factor in creating psychopaths, a stronger economy isn't going to solve the problem, just reduce it.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
it's called being brainwashed. they are all brainwashed.
An armed population should not exist, no reason in 2022 for having one, or at least I don't see one.
Also, can you imagine they argue about that stupid constitution they have? Some dude wrote a paper 233 years ago and they still do mental gymnastics about how he was right. No wonder they take the bible ad litteram too. Fking hell brother.
I wonder, will Americans ever learn that they can be wrong too? It got to a point where it is pure hubris in the detriment of everything.
In the real world America as a country is the most successful experiment ever attempted. The reason we are so successful is because we do take our constitution seriously. We do not succeed because we are smarter or taller or harder working or because we have more natural resources or better weather. We succeed because we respect our constitution.
As a law student, I find this section of your argument absolutely hilarious.
It's still unfathomable for me that school/church/hospital shootings happen on regular basis in a country, and aside from some heated public debate, nothing happens.
Even one of these is so crazy to even think about, and a significant portion of the society acts like it's the price of freedom, or it's for some other commonplace reason, that's present in most other countries, yet without this outcome.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
On May 27 2022 15:57 xsnac wrote:
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
it's called being brainwashed. they are all brainwashed.
An armed population should not exist, no reason in 2022 for having one, or at least I don't see one.
Also, can you imagine they argue about that stupid constitution they have? Some dude wrote a paper 233 years ago and they still do mental gymnastics about how he was right. No wonder they take the bible ad litteram too. Fking hell brother.
I wonder, will Americans ever learn that they can be wrong too? It got to a point where it is pure hubris in the detriment of everything.
In the real world America as a country is the most successful experiment ever attempted. The reason we are so successful is because we do take our constitution seriously. We do not succeed because we are smarter or taller or harder working or because we have more natural resources or better weather. We succeed because we respect our constitution.
As a law student, I find this section of your argument absolutely hilarious.
Why do people who love the constitution always leave out the "well regulated militia" part. It is like they totally missed their history lesson where the point was to beat down rebellion from over throwing the new country not the opposite.
If everyone who was part of the national guard got to keep their weapon they were trained and proficient at, then it would be following the country and actually be like Switzerland.
The current version of the 2nd people talk about is all NRA marketing and it is all about gun sales. Anyone who thinks the NRA is about open access to guns should check out the NRA's position on 3d printing of guns. That of course is bad because it does not help the gun manufactures make money, who are the ones donating to politicians.
If people bothered to do actual research, not just google what they want the answer to be, this issue would be a lot less murky.
A few telling stories about guns and schools near Toronto, Canada, perhaps copycat incidents following the wave of high-profile gun violence in the US.
1. Guy shows up at a school with a gun. 6 schools are immediately locked down and the suspect is arrested. Turns out it wasn't even a real gun. Nobody is hurt. Most of the kids (at least the younger ones) don't even know what happened, they were just playing.
2. Guy shows up at a school with a rifle. 4 schools are immediately locked down. One person is killed: the guy with the rifle, by the police. Police actions are being investigated because as it turns out, it wasn't even a real gun. Nobody else is hurt.
3. Two guys show up at a school with a gun making threats. 2 schools are immediately locked down and the suspects are arrested. Turns out it wasn't even a real gun. Nobody is hurt.
Gun regulations work.
Sources: this and linked articles, personal conversation with a parent of some kids at the first school.
Unpopular opinion; but I do not consider guns to be the central issue, it is the American people and their culture that are. No country on Earth produces psychopaths/ sociopaths with a frequency anywhere near America's in the modern era.
The worship of money; that financial wealth = greatness. The notion of the American dream; you too can become a billionaire. The championing of the individual ego; I am the most important. The myth of American exceptionalism; this country is special. The hangover from the red fear; helping others for free looks like communism. The hero mentality post world war 2; we saved the world and we must save it again. The idea that education must lead to vocation. Greed ramped up to the nth degree invading every aspect of life, to the point where corporations and individuals are willing to do ANYTHING TO ANYONE to make money. The air that you are NO-ONE unless you are rich or famous. The lack of human empathy in the general day to day world in America. The stark extremes of severe poverty and egregious wealth. The romanticised history; the pioneers, the forefathers, the West, the Bill of Rights, contrasting with the murderous, barbarous, cruel, blood strewn history of America. A country controlled by its defense spending. The mass commodification of education An overmedicated populace (both prescription and illicit) The deification of the president and that the words of a president are truth regardless of reality. The mass media/ marketing saturation in which alternate facts/ versions of truth/ history thrive. The fear instilled into the population of the 'other;' African Americans, Mexicans, the Russians, the terrorists, the Russians again, the greens, the socialists, the Chinese, the list goes on. Incarceration rates that only China can compete with. Religiosity unmatched in the modern world. Rampant sexism and the objectification of women Widespread racism. Intergenerational trauma from chattel slavery, indiginous genocides and the nationwide poverty from the great depression.
These are just some of the webs into which an American child is born. Hardly fertile ground for creating stable empathetic human beings. I greatly respect any American who can raise an intelligent, thoughtful, empathetic child in such conditions.
On June 11 2022 14:46 AxiomB wrote: Unpopular opinion; but I do not consider guns to be the central issue, it is the American people and their culture that are. No country on Earth produces psychopaths/ sociopaths with a frequency anywhere near America's in the modern era.
The worship of money; that financial wealth = greatness. The notion of the American dream; you too can become a billionaire. The championing of the individual ego; I am the most important. The myth of American exceptionalism; this country is special. The hangover from the red fear; helping others for free looks like communism. The hero mentality post world war 2; we saved the world and we must save it again. The idea that education must lead to vocation. Greed ramped up to the nth degree invading every aspect of life, to the point where corporations and individuals are willing to do ANYTHING TO ANYONE to make money. The air that you are NO-ONE unless you are rich or famous. The lack of human empathy in the general day to day world in America. The stark extremes of severe poverty and egregious wealth. The romanticised history; the pioneers, the forefathers, the West, the Bill of Rights, contrasting with the murderous, barbarous, cruel, blood strewn history of America. A country controlled by its defense spending. The mass commodification of education An overmedicated populace (both prescription and illicit) The deification of the president and that the words of a president are truth regardless of reality. The mass media/ marketing saturation in which alternate facts/ versions of truth/ history thrive. The fear instilled into the population of the 'other;' African Americans, Mexicans, the Russians, the terrorists, the Russians again, the greens, the socialists, the Chinese, the list goes on. Incarceration rates that only China can compete with. Religiosity unmatched in the modern world. Rampant sexism and the objectification of women Widespread racism. Intergenerational trauma from chattel slavery, indiginous genocides and the nationwide poverty from the great depression.
These are just some of the webs into which an American child is born. Hardly fertile ground for creating stable empathetic human beings. I greatly respect any American who can raise an intelligent, thoughtful, empathetic child in such conditions.
Think that's pretty on point. I don't know how we go about reversing these trends in our culture though. Gun proliferation is at least something that could be legislated against.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
On May 27 2022 14:49 LuckyOwls wrote: You know a country is a failed experiment when after a school shooting you still get people shouting "I'm still pro gun! lets just stick an armed officer in every school" There is actually a thread already called "if you are reading this then another mass shooting happened" Says it all really but its a better spot for this sort of thing.
it's called being brainwashed. they are all brainwashed.
An armed population should not exist, no reason in 2022 for having one, or at least I don't see one.
Also, can you imagine they argue about that stupid constitution they have? Some dude wrote a paper 233 years ago and they still do mental gymnastics about how he was right. No wonder they take the bible ad litteram too. Fking hell brother.
I wonder, will Americans ever learn that they can be wrong too? It got to a point where it is pure hubris in the detriment of everything.
In the real world America as a country is the most successful experiment ever attempted. The reason we are so successful is because we do take our constitution seriously. We do not succeed because we are smarter or taller or harder working or because we have more natural resources or better weather. We succeed because we respect our constitution. While Europe descended into two brutal world wars with Fascists on one side and Communists on the other, it was America that stepped in and set things right. The fact that there is mass immigration into America and not emigration from America further underscores how wonderful America is. While the Fascists and Communists restricted religious worship, it was the American Bible thumpers who showed up to rescue everyone. Do not be so dismissive towards those who take the Bible seriously.
When Europe disarms itself it makes itself vulnerable to Fascist and Communist government takeovers. The whole security of free people in Europe right now rests on their confidence that Americans will come defend them if their government or another government becomes despotic. This sort of thing seems highly unlikely to younger folks, but I lived through dictatorships in Europe. Romania spent decades as a communist dictatorship during my lifetime. Dictatorships happen and that is when the people need weapons. If you believe that this could no longer happen because "the internet" or for any other reason, then please consider the state of Democracy in Russia and China.
By entrusting your security to American politicians you are showing a degrees of naivete and subservience that we are unwilling to. Politicians are politicians and American politicians are no better than the rest of the world. The difference is that our constitution prevents any single politician from accumulating much power.
Citizens from smaller countries in Europe may assume they can simply flee if things turn bad in their home country, but if things turn bad in America, I don't know where 350M people can flee to.
The most recent school shooting occurred on government property at a government school with government security and government police and yet the government sat there for 90 minutes and let a sicko kill children. That right there should tell you how much the government cares about our security. The best way to protect yourself is to protect yourself.
You may be concerned that guns cause the murders. The data do not back you up.
Non-Hispanic White Americans are the most well armed people in the world, but their murder rate is quite low. It currently sits around 2 per 100,000. Our most populous neighbor, Mexico, sits at 29. The EU sits at 3. So non-Hispanic White Americans commit murders at lower rates than Europeans despite being far better armed.
Guns are not causing the murders. American states and cities have in the past been granted broad powers to restrict gun ownership. During the 1970s - 1990s Washington, DC mostly banned fire arms and watched in terror as its murder rate became the worst in the nation. Meanwhile, rural America, which has the highest per capita gun ownership in the world, has an extremely low murder rate.
If you Europeans wish to disarm yourselves and let the big dogs like America, China, Japan and Russia do with you what we will then that is your right, but do not expect us to follow your lead and don't say we didn't warn you when the governments of America, China, Russia and Japan are less benevolent than you expect.
This is nuts. The Constitution is great for its time but it has incredibly glaring flaws. You know its messed up because when we nation build, do we use our own constitution? No, we give them something else because there's a lot of archaic things that make our system not work.
"The following ten states have the highest gun deaths per capita (per 100,000): Alaska (24.4), Mississippi (24.2), Wyoming (22.3), New Mexico (22.3), Alabama (22.2), Louisiana (22.1), Missouri (20.6), South Carolina (19.9), Arkansas (19.3), and Montana (19.3)."
I'm not sure where you're getting this idea of rural states are safe from gun violence unless you're looking at just raw #s instead of per capita.
I don't follow why you're bringing up non-Hispanic white American gun crime rates, unless you're saying that other types of Americans gun crimes somehow don't count or matter?
On June 11 2022 14:46 AxiomB wrote: Unpopular opinion; but I do not consider guns to be the central issue, it is the American people and their culture that are. No country on Earth produces psychopaths/ sociopaths with a frequency anywhere near America's in the modern era.
The worship of money; that financial wealth = greatness. The notion of the American dream; you too can become a billionaire. The championing of the individual ego; I am the most important. The myth of American exceptionalism; this country is special. The hangover from the red fear; helping others for free looks like communism. The hero mentality post world war 2; we saved the world and we must save it again. The idea that education must lead to vocation. Greed ramped up to the nth degree invading every aspect of life, to the point where corporations and individuals are willing to do ANYTHING TO ANYONE to make money. The air that you are NO-ONE unless you are rich or famous. The lack of human empathy in the general day to day world in America. The stark extremes of severe poverty and egregious wealth. The romanticised history; the pioneers, the forefathers, the West, the Bill of Rights, contrasting with the murderous, barbarous, cruel, blood strewn history of America. A country controlled by its defense spending. The mass commodification of education An overmedicated populace (both prescription and illicit) The deification of the president and that the words of a president are truth regardless of reality. The mass media/ marketing saturation in which alternate facts/ versions of truth/ history thrive. The fear instilled into the population of the 'other;' African Americans, Mexicans, the Russians, the terrorists, the Russians again, the greens, the socialists, the Chinese, the list goes on. Incarceration rates that only China can compete with. Religiosity unmatched in the modern world. Rampant sexism and the objectification of women Widespread racism. Intergenerational trauma from chattel slavery, indiginous genocides and the nationwide poverty from the great depression.
These are just some of the webs into which an American child is born. Hardly fertile ground for creating stable empathetic human beings. I greatly respect any American who can raise an intelligent, thoughtful, empathetic child in such conditions.
Think that's pretty on point. I don't know how we go about reversing these trends in our culture though. Gun proliferation is at least something that could be legislated against.
I hope for the best and sincerely believe the changes will come from the people. I believe in Americans, they have a 'can do' attitude that is inspirational. Forgive me, the religiosity is America's own style. Naturally countries like Indonesia (the most populated muslim country) have more religious members.
School shootings were never even 'a thing' until Columbine 20yr ago. School shootings didn't happen in the 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s ... Putting in more and more rules limiting legal access to guns doesn't make much difference to the people acquiring guns illegally (contraband, smuggled, or because they wouldn't clear background checks).
But let's talk about adding more rules. Ok, which rules? A reasoned discussion needs to be aware of bias. Most often, people are not aware of their own team's bias. Particularly the bias that comes from hearing and publishing comments by one-sided full-time activists.
This and this are humorous and entertaining articles, worth your time to skim, showing how easy and how common it is for us to buy into the takes of people who don't actually know what they're talking about.
We don't want to be hot air mouthpieces. Therefore we shouldn't only get our takes from people who are that.
Think about it. If you haven't heard the perspective of the other side, if you don't know even know the basic differences between guns (caliber differences, auto vs semi-auto, open vs. concealed carry), don't even know the statistics of how frequent gun deaths are (e.g. gang violence kills more people just in Chicago each season than all school shootings put together), and don't even know which types of guns are used for the most killing (answer: not rifles, but handguns, because they're much more common) ... then it's safe to say your opinion is severely un-informed.
You're welcome to have a take. But please, for all our sakes, make it an informed take, because no one wants to sound like an NPC.
What are you talking about? There were school shootings before Columbine. The first school shooting happened in 1891. And how can you say more rules wouldn’t make much difference when more shootings have happened since the assault gun ban ended?
Let’s try out some regulations and see what works? I’d like gun ownership to look more like Switzerland than what we have now.
On July 14 2022 18:41 rickymartin wrote: Also the problem with the "bad guys have them" argument is that that is never going to change while you keep weapons accessible. If you buy weapons back and don't sell anymore you're slowly reducing the number of them in the country and eventually you might get to the point where not everyone who wants one has one. And you create the possibility of a cultural shift where weapons are seen as the tools for murder they are and not as a toy as some seem to think in the USA. Make laws and stop selling these items in princessmarket.