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i am very sorry for your loss.
i have had to deal with several deaths in my life, as i'm sure we all have, but not any suicides as of yet. well, my grandfather probably tried to kill himself. he took an entire box of sleeping pills, like 20 or something, instead of the one he was supposed to take. he barely survived as he was already in hospital, then died a few months later. he was 84 years old and rather confused and he always denied he had any intent to kill himself so what do i know.
but anyway, that's not what this thread is about. i think whenever we lose someone, we should try to keep a memory of that person. a good memory, but also a somewhat realistic memory. i learned this when my dad passed; i had some time to prepare for that happening, not that i really managed to, but that meant i had some time to think about how i wanted to remember him. in cases of suicide we don't have that luxury, of course.
and the other thing we should do is try to learn from them. learn from our reaction to the news of their passing, learn from how others deal with it, learn from what lead the person to that point where they ended up dying, whether they took their own life or not.
again, my sincerest condolences.
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You may have answered it already. I've read some of the replies (not all) and they've already said what needs or can be said. But what I want to know is what are you doing personally? Are you bettering yourself as a friend to all who you think may need someone to talk to? Have you changed your thinking on life and those around you? What is your plan to move forward?
We talk in the US pol thread and other places. So I'm just getting to the heart of the matter. Are you changing? Or are you stuck? I ask because I can offer some...advice. PM me if you'd like.
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Wombat_NI I know nothing of you except the post you've written so please take that into account. I'm also going to be very general.
The way I see it - you have the attitude of owning the failure that has occurred - but with a flawed add-on.
First, on owning the failure that has occurred. In my view, this is commendable. I see it as a strong attitude. Honest. This is because that attitude enables to focus on improving. Not allowing such things to happen again.
Attitudes of ignoring the issue or running from it, these don't focus on improving. They focus on who or what to blame or why and how to feel helpless.
That's why I respect your attitude.
Onto the flawed add-on of guilt, imo that's very wrong. It's flat out wrong. It assumes that you somehow had all the skills, all the knowledge, all the requirements in place to handle that in a way that would ensure it could not happen and you didn't, so you're a bad person in general. That's nonsense.
It really is nonsense. The only way such assumptions would ever be justified, is if you were perfect and obviously you're human and humans are very imperfect, save for areas they train a lot and get very skilled at.
There's balance to owning a failure that has occurred. One goes too far in being objective about it and rationalization kicks in, to the point of not owning it at all, blaming some other things or going victim mode. One goes too far in the other direction of owning the failure, one forgets simple realities of imperfection and being human. Both of these derailments are unreasonable, not justified by any real ethics, and both of them screw and stifle improvement.
A person cannot be guilty of not being perfect. A person can, instead, own the failures but in a healthy, reasonable way. Account for the fact that everyone fails. Own the failures, learn the lessons, improve and move on. See to improve on and not repeat mistakes.
And that's just my opinion. What you've described, anybody might find such a weight heavy and perhaps too heavy to lift on their own. Not my words but somebody wise said: those who live should live up to and cherish life to the fullest to honor those who no longer can. Given that a person's life is about 80 years, it's easy to fail on doing that. I'd say you might very seriously consider finding a way to learn, acknowledge, cheer up and move on, and sooner rather than later, and that it's a very big deal that you do make the moving on part happen and not let it waste life. Props for having the reason and guts to not just keep it rotting inside but take it somewhere and help yourself heal to a more reasonable perspective. I wish you well, man.
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Northern Ireland26411 Posts
On October 16 2019 23:51 Schelim wrote:
i am very sorry for your loss.
i have had to deal with several deaths in my life, as i'm sure we all have, but not any suicides as of yet. well, my grandfather probably tried to kill himself. he took an entire box of sleeping pills, like 20 or something, instead of the one he was supposed to take. he barely survived as he was already in hospital, then died a few months later. he was 84 years old and rather confused and he always denied he had any intent to kill himself so what do i know.
but anyway, that's not what this thread is about. i think whenever we lose someone, we should try to keep a memory of that person. a good memory, but also a somewhat realistic memory. i learned this when my dad passed; i had some time to prepare for that happening, not that i really managed to, but that meant i had some time to think about how i wanted to remember him. in cases of suicide we don't have that luxury, of course.
and the other thing we should do is try to learn from them. learn from our reaction to the news of their passing, learn from how others deal with it, learn from what lead the person to that point where they ended up dying, whether they took their own life or not.
again, my sincerest condolences.
Thanks for that.
Lost my own grandfather like 3 weeks ago, we were a lot closer as adult peers than when I was a kid, especially after my dad and his firstborn passed away. He ended up having dementia and wasn’t himself, when I found out he was looking into assisted dying it really didn’t affect me at all, ‘he doesn’t have much of a life’ being my refrain.
I was, somewhat glad he passed. He was a proud man who didn’t take well to being infirm, and he wasn’t the man we all knew.
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Northern Ireland26411 Posts
On October 18 2019 02:26 coffeesession wrote:
Wombat_NI I know nothing of you except the post you've written so please take that into account. I'm also going to be very general.
The way I see it - you have the attitude of owning the failure that has occurred - but with a flawed add-on.
First, on owning the failure that has occurred. In my view, this is commendable. I see it as a strong attitude. Honest. This is because that attitude enables to focus on improving. Not allowing such things to happen again.
Attitudes of ignoring the issue or running from it, these don't focus on improving. They focus on who or what to blame or why and how to feel helpless.
That's why I respect your attitude.
Onto the flawed add-on of guilt, imo that's very wrong. It's flat out wrong. It assumes that you somehow had all the skills, all the knowledge, all the requirements in place to handle that in a way that would ensure it could not happen and you didn't, so you're a bad person in general. That's nonsense.
It really is nonsense. The only way such assumptions would ever be justified, is if you were perfect and obviously you're human and humans are very imperfect, save for areas they train a lot and get very skilled at.
There's balance to owning a failure that has occurred. One goes too far in being objective about it and rationalization kicks in, to the point of not owning it at all, blaming some other things or going victim mode. One goes too far in the other direction of owning the failure, one forgets simple realities of imperfection and being human. Both of these derailments are unreasonable, not justified by any real ethics, and both of them screw and stifle improvement.
A person cannot be guilty of not being perfect. A person can, instead, own the failures but in a healthy, reasonable way. Account for the fact that everyone fails. Own the failures, learn the lessons, improve and move on. See to improve on and not repeat mistakes.
And that's just my opinion. What you've described, anybody might find such a weight heavy and perhaps too heavy to lift on their own. Not my words but somebody wise said: those who live should live up to and cherish life to the fullest to honor those who no longer can. Given that a person's life is about 80 years, it's easy to fail on doing that. I'd say you might very seriously consider finding a way to learn, acknowledge, cheer up and move on, and sooner rather than later, and that it's a very big deal that you do make the moving on part happen and not let it waste life. Props for having the reason and guts to not just keep it rotting inside but take it somewhere and help yourself heal to a more reasonable perspective. I wish you well, man.
Thank you for the perspective.
I guess I put extra weight on my shoulders because I was extremely ill mentally, got sectioned and had people looking out for me.
A lot of people want to help, they don’t know the process, I do. I’ve enacted it myself for a friend, and a friend of mine did it for me in the past.
In the absence of other avenues of help well, myself or a good friend know how to force it and we both missed this one.
Logically I know it’s preposterous to expect either of us to fill the holes in our mental health services, 100% I know logically it’s an unrealistic expectation of myself, I still emotionally feel that I failed.
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Northern Ireland26411 Posts
On October 17 2019 12:23 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote:
You may have answered it already. I've read some of the replies (not all) and they've already said what needs or can be said. But what I want to know is what are you doing personally? Are you bettering yourself as a friend to all who you think may need someone to talk to? Have you changed your thinking on life and those around you? What is your plan to move forward?
We talk in the US pol thread and other places. So I'm just getting to the heart of the matter. Are you changing? Or are you stuck? I ask because I can offer some...advice. PM me if you'd like.
Everyone I know in theory can talk to me, evidently some don’t think they can.
Myself and a friend are making a website to fill gaps we feel exist within current services in every way we think they’re lacking and hocking what we’re doing to every mental health service in the land. Every aspect of difficult we both have found, that of others we’re trying to gather in one informational dump.
I’ve had 2 suicides of friends in 3 weeks. He’s attended 8 of men 16-24 in the last 10 days
As people who’ve both been through services we know barriers to access so we’re trying to make a one stop shop for such information
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Now that you're looking back, do you have some sort of new entry point to conversations about finding meaning in life and enduring shitty years of life hopeful for something better?
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Northern Ireland26411 Posts
On October 19 2019 09:05 Danglars wrote:
Now that you're looking back, do you have some sort of new entry point to conversations about finding meaning in life and enduring shitty years of life hopeful for something better?
Hm, yes but that was very much self-generated years ago. I was extremely unwell had a year on the shelf so when I ‘came back’ so to speak I had that extra later of motivation I suppose.
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Northern Ireland26411 Posts
But aye thanks for the responses all, really helped having this space to vent out some emotion and replies were well-considered and constructive.
Feeling a bit better, not entirely out of my mind by any means but I’m doing OK. Thanks again all.
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I had a member of my extended family endhis life a handful of years ago now.
We are spread across the country, and very rarely get to have full family reunions. The last we had was at my grandmother's funeral. (She lived until she was nearly 100). Upon seeing him, I immediately saw there was some darkness eating away, but I did not understand the extent of it. Not a single other person in my family, including those closest to him had any idea of this. He tried to make it look like an accident so that his family would still be able to get insurance money. It did not work, so he finished it with a firearm.
Let me be clear, for those that end their life, there is VERY rarely, if ever anything someone on the outside can do to stop them. Those that talk about it, are seeking a way out of it. Those that do not, see no way out, and nothing you say or do will change that.
It does not take away from the sorrow of it in any way, but there is no room for blaming yourself for not seeing it. None. It does not mean you should not grieve, or go through the 'what could i have done'. This is human. But you must accept that their choice is in no way reflective of you. It won't make the pain go away. It won't keep you from missing them. In the long run, it will give you some small measure of solace.
edit: clarity.
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Hey man, I'm really sorry you had to go through that, I saw once of your posts on fb a little while ago and it felt strange for me to read because I'm not really part of your life but still I felt for you and yours. To hear that it happened twice in such a short timespan is absolutely gut wrenching...
There are so many campaigns for suicide awareness and they're a good thing I guess but an unfortunate downside is that it makes us feel like we're somehow personally responsible for the mental health of others. There's very little that can be done in most cases. Almost everyone I've known goes through rough patches, their sadness is often indistinguishable from suicidal thoughts and suicidal intentions because people fail to communicate their distress clearly or simply don't want to. If I were to be concerned that every sad facebook message or DM or cryptic signs were all foretelling of a suicide, I would make myself sick trying to take care of people who are for the most part just whining incessantly. You can't be at the ready to catch everyone's fall.
My sympathies for your loss and I hope you're well.
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NI is so fucked up for suicides, it's an absolute disgrace. Politics here is so stagnant and nothing changes. It needs to change but the money is not there.
I really hope you don't mind me replying here and upsetting you. I'm just a TL lurker that saw you were also from NI <3
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EPT
