A guy who calls himself SwoopAE popped up and provided pretty good arguments along with insights in the betting scene to point out that there was indeed fixing going on.
Rekrul chimed in with the following post:
facts:
1. illegal sports betting in korea is much bigger than it was during the BW scandal so there is more $ to be earned from throwing matches, pinnacle is just a small piece of the pie
2. everyone in the korean sc2 scene already knows that fixing is rampant in proleague especially among players who don't make much money and aren't good enough to dominate individual leagues (where it definitely happens sometimes as well)
3. sc2 is already suffering in korea as is, them investigating or going public trying to stop it is not only futile with the given industry dynamics, but would also likely destroy sc2 in korea
Team MVP stated via Twitter that they would release a statement rather soon. They didn't.
Olivia (Olimoley) said via twitter that many small cups have shady sponsors that are supposedly involved in illegal online betting.
Please don't start discussing if it's indeed fixing or not. There are other threads for that.
Let's instead just completely disregard what happened. Let's just say, hypothetically, that there is no fixing happening and everything is totally fine. Because that's apparently what KeSPA and pretty much everyone else that has some sort of insight and/or authority in the Korean SC2 scene is doing. But why is that?
Is it because people and organizations need more time to investigate?
Is it because (Rekrul pointed at that) the whole betting scene is too big and somehow (in a weird way) even supportive to SC2, leading to a "It is too big to fail" mantra?
Is it because all the theories of fixing are plain bullshit and the SC2 community is just hungry for drama?
To be honest, I simply don't care. I don't give a fuck about Proleague anymore. Just at this very moment, playoffs are going on and I even didn't check who's playing. I totally yolo'd my liquibets and didn't check my FPL for some time now. Well why would I? There is a huge scandal going on and while there is so much evidence for "Wait, guys, something's wrong!", there is not a single hint on anyone actually investigating! People might come up with the argument "but wait, what if they investigate in silence so the evil fixers feel safe and make mistakes?", I can just say that while this surely is a possibility, most match fixers will be aware that people are looking at them simply because of the drama that has already been caused over the internet.
Wolf stated that he wanted to translate some korean comments on the match fixing but he refused because they were too hostile. The only word that was spread to the community was from Team MVP, promising a statement (and mind that, only a statement, nothing more), and we all were so hungry for that. Yet they disappointed.
Why should I put time and passion into organizations that do not give a fuck? I am a huge fan of Starcraft. Seriously. While I do not play the game very often these days, I'm always glad to see some entertaining games. But this fixing bullshit just makes me mad. It's poison that is slowly killing of the majority of what I love about korean Starcraft. I know that "not watching Proleague" does not only limit my entertainment but also is a huge injustice to the players that did not fix. But they are playing under the "protective" wings of KeSPA. It is KeSPA's job to clear up what the fuck is going on. If they cannot clear up, well, then go for stronger rules! If a game is lost because someone says "GLHF" twice, well why the fuck wouldn't you ban a player who is strongly alleged to be fixing? Of couse it is not that easy. I know that. It's not my job to find the perfect solution. Nor is it my job to judge if a player was indeed fixing or not.
My job is to provide honest feedback about the thing I enjoy. My job is to pay (either via watching advertisement videos or straight out subscribe to a streaming service) to watch what I enjoy. That's how it works! I give them something, I get something in return.
Yeah, I know, I'm oversimplifying. But you know what, I don't care. I am not being cared about apparently, it's more like "LET'S JUST STAY SILENT AND THE INTERNET WILL HOPEFULLY FORGET".
Yeah keep doing that. And fuck your broadcasts while you do that.
And let's just say one more thing: I've read actually quite often now the argument that players cannot really afford a living from being pro gamers. That's why they tend to accept shady offers. Well I can just say then if you cannot afford a living from what you're doing, it's time to change your profession. If you really love what you do and you want to pursue your dreams, well, you're fucked. But I bet (haha..) that when a pro originally started to dream about a pro gaming life, that dream did not include match fixers. If what Rekrul said is actually true (freely quoted "korean sc2 would be dead without fixing") well then I want Korean SC2 to be dead. I feel heavily betrayed.
all of my korean friends always laugh if i bring up starcraft2 compared to sonic, ksl, or leauge.. they say that in korea sc2 is looked down upon as unduly feasting off of broodwar's success without understanding why bw was good in the first place.. the initial litigation between kespa and blizz left a sour taste in korea's mouth, especially since sc2 competitively is inferior to broodwar in the eyes of the vast majority of korean players..
the mix of lack of respect for the game/scene and the relative lack of oversight (ie kespa actually caring about sc2 after blizz killed bw and demands royalties, lol) fosters match fixing.. everyone will point to BW, and it's true that BW had match fixing too, and you can bet league has it as well, but the point is sc2 doesn't have the bearing or health in korea to be more than a betting platform..
these gamblers fund tournaments promoting the scene and people want them removed, but what will be left funding wise once 1. the gamblers are disallowed from funding, and 2. kespa further distances itself from matchfixing out of an attempt to stay publicly clear of subsequent scandals?
i dont think it's kespa or korea's fault, i blame blizz for botching bw litigations, sc2's release in korea, sc2's development as a competitive experience, etc etc
SC2 as an esport is no more or less corrupt than sports like 100 meter Sprinting, Major League Baseball, NFL Football, Cycling, or most track and field events in the olympics. Assuming it is somehow immune to the pitfalls of 1000s of other competitive events is naive.
This is awesome stuff... Marion Jones denial...
During this time Marion Jones and her "loyal mob" discredited honest people... embarked on an extensive smear campaign to call out the credibility, honesty, and integrity of those doubting her. Her denials defied the common sense of the average casual observer such as would exist on a forum board like this. However, she and her angry mob were on an all out offensive that was just more lying and fraud to cover up the original fraud.
Marion Jones finally admitting she is a liar and a cheater and a fraud...
I suspect the same behaviour patterns with SC2 match fixing is happening. But, I'm too lazy to do some 5000 hour investigation. Just as I was too lazy to investigate Marion Jones.
I'm too lazy to investigate in a detailed and systematic fashion the charges of match fixing. I'd rather just play the game. its more fun and rewarding.
betting follows any kind of competitive event, nothing is new on that front. But match fixing really isn't much of a thing in the US for the major 4 professional sports because most of those players are very well compensated now. Fixing from the player's side is pretty rare there because of that. Refs on the other hand: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_NBA_betting_scandal
the match fixing tends to happen if the players in question are poorly compensated and as everyone knows 95% of esports pros make shit. I'm sure they did not dream of fixing matches, but as you can see with the plenty of naïve kids posting I'm going pro blogs here, most people don't realize just how poor these dudes are until they try it themselves.
someone who is living a cramped house with a bunch of other dudes and barely making $20,000 for the year is going to be easily enticed by a couple thousand from a gambler to throw a match.
On April 20 2015 22:27 JimmyJRaynor wrote: SC2 as an esport is no more or less corrupt than sports like 100 meter Sprinting, Major League Baseball, NFL Football, Cycling, or most track and field events in the olympics. Assuming it is somehow immune to the pitfalls of 1000s of other competitive events is naive.
During this time Marion Jones and her "loyal mob" discredited honest people... embarked on an extensive smear campaign to call out the credibility, honesty, and integrity of those doubting her. Her denials defied the common sense of the average casual observer such as would exist on a forum board like this. However, she and her angry mob were on an all out offensive that was just more lying and fraud to cover up the original fraud.
I suspect the same behaviour patterns with SC2 match fixing is happening. But, I'm too lazy to do some 5000 hour investigation. Just as I was too lazy to investigate Marion Jones.
I'm too lazy to investigate in a detailed and systematic fashion the charges of match fixing. I'd rather just play the game. its more fun and rewarding.
Are you serious with this? Comparing the mlb and nfl to this situation is ludicrous at best
they are all competitive events. they all deal with rampant corruption.
check out Declan Hill's work on match fixing. its a lot harder to fix a football game than a Starcraft match.
match fixing has already been proven in Brood War and SC2... to assume the only time it ever happens was the time they got caught is naive and "ludicrous at best"..as you put it.
On April 20 2015 22:27 JimmyJRaynor wrote: SC2 as an esport is no more or less corrupt than sports like 100 meter Sprinting, Major League Baseball, NFL Football, Cycling, or most track and field events in the olympics. Assuming it is somehow immune to the pitfalls of 1000s of other competitive events is naive.
During this time Marion Jones and her "loyal mob" discredited honest people... embarked on an extensive smear campaign to call out the credibility, honesty, and integrity of those doubting her. Her denials defied the common sense of the average casual observer such as would exist on a forum board like this. However, she and her angry mob were on an all out offensive that was just more lying and fraud to cover up the original fraud.
I suspect the same behaviour patterns with SC2 match fixing is happening. But, I'm too lazy to do some 5000 hour investigation. Just as I was too lazy to investigate Marion Jones.
I'm too lazy to investigate in a detailed and systematic fashion the charges of match fixing. I'd rather just play the game. its more fun and rewarding.
Now that I'm older and more cynical I stopped caring for professional sports knowing that there is a lot of corruption and misery. I used to watch tennis, but knowing that there is doping I can't enjoy myself because amazing performances leave me cynical about the reasons. I used to love cycling, but now I have to force myself to even watch the Tour de France because there is so much controversy. The match fixing was the final nail in the coffin of my days of being invested into proleague. I still follow professional chess, but in the event it becomes clear that professional players are systematically cheating with engines I will stop taking it seriously. Fortunately that doesn't seem to be the case so far and I'm still hopeful.
Any athletic feat is a joke in this day and age though, more of a question of doctors than hard work and talent.
that stuff was way more prevelant in the 70s and esp the 80s. you cray cray if you dont think everyone was juicing back when they didn't have reliable tests, much less rules against doping.
On April 20 2015 23:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote: they are all competitive events. they all deal with rampant corruption.
check out Declan Hill's work on match fixing. its a lot harder to fix a football game than a Starcraft match.
match fixing has already been proven in Brood War and SC2... to assume the only time it ever happens was the time they got caught is naive and "ludicrous at best"..as you put it.
My point was that match fixing does not occur in the NFL or mlb.
First time I willingly didn't participate in FPL, I don't hold much hope for Korean SC2 tbh. I feel if the game is to make a resurgence it will have to happen from the "foreigner" side.
On April 20 2015 23:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote: they are all competitive events. they all deal with rampant corruption.
check out Declan Hill's work on match fixing. its a lot harder to fix a football game than a Starcraft match.
match fixing has already been proven in Brood War and SC2... to assume the only time it ever happens was the time they got caught is naive and "ludicrous at best"..as you put it.
My point was that match fixing does not occur in the NFL or mlb.
Comparing curroption in popular sports to esports does work in terms of "I am disappointed because my experience as a watcher/consumer is being damaged". Or, to say it shortly: "I'm a fan and you kill my passion". That blog post is a helpless cry to be honest. I can't do anything about how it is in Korea, I can just shout and point with my finger and hopefully one day meet a shady matchfixer and kick him in the balls. I can only deny my fandom and passion to players and hope they realize that somehow. And boom, there's the next problem: there's no proof. There are heavy indicators, but there's no proof at all so far. so what if you denial of passion and support is actually completely out of place? Gnah, I hate the situation we've been put it.
On April 21 2015 17:51 boxerfred wrote: Comparing curroption in popular sports to esports does work in terms of "I am disappointed because my experience as a watcher/consumer is being damaged". Or, to say it shortly: "I'm a fan and you kill my passion". That blog post is a helpless cry to be honest. I can't do anything about how it is in Korea, I can just shout and point with my finger and hopefully one day meet a shady matchfixer and kick him in the balls. I can only deny my fandom and passion to players and hope they realize that somehow. And boom, there's the next problem: there's no proof. There are heavy indicators, but there's no proof at all so far. so what if you denial of passion and support is actually completely out of place? Gnah, I hate the situation we've been put it.
You can at least cancel your subscription. That's what i did. But yeah.. If you don't sub... you can just wait and hope.
On April 20 2015 23:25 JimmyJRaynor wrote: they are all competitive events. they all deal with rampant corruption.
check out Declan Hill's work on match fixing. its a lot harder to fix a football game than a Starcraft match.
match fixing has already been proven in Brood War and SC2... to assume the only time it ever happens was the time they got caught is naive and "ludicrous at best"..as you put it.
My point was that match fixing does not occur in the NFL or mlb.
its pretty much acknowledged that Pete Rose would do anything and everything with his bullpen on days he bet on the Reds and Expos. on days he wasn't making bets he had a far more laissez-faire approach with his starters.
had rose managed the team the same way on betting and non-betting days then reds players wouldn't have squawked about it and he never would've gotten caught and he'd be in the hall of fame. as it is .. he was a completely different manager on "betting days" and it really pissed off his players.
1 game an oft injured started would throw 160 pitches and go 10 innings.. the next day he'd use 7 pitchers.
the commissioner before Bud recently ripped poor little pete to shreds regarding the money he owed organized crime when he was managing the expos and the reds. pete was strangely silent after decades of big talk.
4256 base hits, a 44 game hitting streak, 17 time all star, and he is not in the hall of fame. LOL.
On April 20 2015 22:27 JimmyJRaynor wrote: SC2 as an esport is no more or less corrupt than sports like 100 meter Sprinting, Major League Baseball, NFL Football, Cycling, or most track and field events in the olympics. Assuming it is somehow immune to the pitfalls of 1000s of other competitive events is naive.
During this time Marion Jones and her "loyal mob" discredited honest people... embarked on an extensive smear campaign to call out the credibility, honesty, and integrity of those doubting her. Her denials defied the common sense of the average casual observer such as would exist on a forum board like this. However, she and her angry mob were on an all out offensive that was just more lying and fraud to cover up the original fraud.
I suspect the same behaviour patterns with SC2 match fixing is happening. But, I'm too lazy to do some 5000 hour investigation. Just as I was too lazy to investigate Marion Jones.
I'm too lazy to investigate in a detailed and systematic fashion the charges of match fixing. I'd rather just play the game. its more fun and rewarding.
Now that I'm older and more cynical I stopped caring for professional sports knowing that there is a lot of corruption and misery. I used to watch tennis, but knowing that there is doping I can't enjoy myself because amazing performances leave me cynical about the reasons. I used to love cycling, but now I have to force myself to even watch the Tour de France because there is so much controversy. The match fixing was the final nail in the coffin of my days of being invested into proleague. I still follow professional chess, but in the event it becomes clear that professional players are systematically cheating with engines I will stop taking it seriously. Fortunately that doesn't seem to be the case so far and I'm still hopeful.
Any athletic feat is a joke in this day and age though, more of a question of doctors than hard work and talent.
Not that I mean to merely criticize you, but I find it ridiculous that people think modern sports are a joke because of doping/PEDs.
First of all, the overall competition has increased dramatically in sports even without the use of PEDs. Secondly, PEDs do not replace talent, despite what people believe. Thirdly, I believe WAY more athletes use PEDs than people admit to (it's truthfully quite easy to pass drug tests if you know what you're doing). But what do PEDs/steroids detract from sports? Well, in my personal opinion not much, at least when compared to match fixing.
PEDs mimic what the top athletes would have with near perfect genetics and increase stamina, strength, and ability to recover. They also have some negative side effects, especially in terms of a person's longevity and ability to remain injury free, but for the most part they increase the level of competition without negatively impacting the way that the game is played. A lot of people believe that you can just take steroids and then instantly become 250 lbs of lean muscle and an amazing athlete. Although people on roids can get bigger, stronger, faster, etc. than people that are natural, it's not like you can be an idiot and just get huge. In reality it still takes a HUGE amount of work and dedication to get to the elite levels. It's obviously nowhere near this simple and everyone is entitled to their own opinions, but I could go on and on about it.
Match fixing on the other hand is a huge issue. It calls into credibility the validity of every single game/organization and it makes you wonder if you're even watching the most amount of effort from each player. No one questions whether an athlete that dopes is giving their full effort, but a player that chooses to artificially control the match by purposefully losing/winning really destroys the validity of the game. PEDs don't seek to alter the way the game is actually played -- they just up the competition and the level of play. Throwing matches however prohibits the game from being able to reach the highest level of play. It's truly sad that SC2 has this issue right now, where players feel pressured to throw games because that is what will make them the most money.
@guitarist While I don't know if i agree fully with you on ped/doping, I do agree that there is a very important difference between that and matchfixing. Doping makes the people playing less special, matchfixing makes the game(s) less special. The latter is, to me, much worse, because it drains me of the will to watch much more.
EPT
