EPTMVP isnt that far behind those teams, but given how much more fierce the competition in EU is which lets each team play fewer international tournaments i think the 4th invite spot for EU is well deserved.
TI5 invites? - Page 3
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hfglgg
Germany5372 Posts
MVP isnt that far behind those teams, but given how much more fierce the competition in EU is which lets each team play fewer international tournaments i think the 4th invite spot for EU is well deserved. | ||
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Evander Berry Wall
United States1137 Posts
Secret, C9, EG, VG, IG, LGD... I guess Malaysia? Assuming that Valve is going to invite at least one SEA team, Malaysia has already rapidly demonstrated that the dominate the division, and this only confirms what one would have already guessed based on the team roster. So let's say those 7. There's a problem with CIS. A lot of people would grumble about me not putting a CIS team on the invite list, but who you pick? VP (formerly Polar) and Empire seem almost exactly even, and the two of them are blatantly not as good as the top three western and eastern teams, not if you look at their overall record. And don't get me started on Na'Vi. It's just not a good time CIS. So, my book is, either something is resolved for a CIS representative, or leave the invites at 7, qualify two teams from each qualifier, and have a wildcard spot for all the third place finishers. I don't think that's what Valve is actually going to do, but that's what I would recommend. And no, I don't think Newbee should get an invite, and I'm not sure that they will. They have been doing terribly, ever since their first roster change, and they don't have their main carry or the guy who both assembled and captained the team when they won TI4, so they hardly even count. | ||
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Spicy_Curry
United States10573 Posts
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Piledriver
United States1697 Posts
On April 18 2015 06:45 Shaella wrote: if thats the case TT deserves an NA invite rofl TT deserves to be put in the EU qualifiers (even that's questionable). They don't deserve anything outside of that - putting them in NA qualifiers is a crime. I truly hope Valve calls GG Agency's bluff and put them where they belong. | ||
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Shaella
United States14827 Posts
I'm sure that c9 being in the NA quals for DAC was fine :^) | ||
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shizaep
Canada2920 Posts
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On April 19 2015 10:12 shizaep wrote: If you look at c9's new roster, they actually haven't done shit besides 5-6th at DAC, where they were put into NA quals (essentially invited). Yeah, DAC was a t1 lan but I definitely wouldn't equate it to TI. After that, they've been very underwhelming besides one money run through TS3 lower bracket. (I don't think they even qualified for ESL one?) ...you realize there hasn't been any tournaments for them to "do shit" in? DAC was the only major tournament that even finished post-Western shuffle. Coming up is Starladder 12, which C9 qualified for, and The Summit, which C9 qualified for, and ESL One, which C9 is still playing to qualify for. And I guess i-League and DreamLeague if you consider them major, and C9/Secret/EG didn't even try for those. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
In SL quals they won both their groups and qualified beating both Empire and Asus Polar (also beat HR but they played only 1 game of the series because HR had just issues and decided to forfeit the series after that). Meanwhile Empire, Asus Polar, NiP, HR, NaVi for example didn't qualify to SL. In Summit quals c9 beat Empire, Alliance, NiP and Asus Polar in a row to qualify. Only Secret qualified as the other European team. In the Redbull tournament only one team qualified from the group and they lost to Secret, but they again placed ahead of NiP and Alliance. ESL qualifier is yet to finish, and Dotapit playoffs only recently started. Maybe they will finish before the invites go out. So in reality this "haven't done shit" means that c9 is still in every tournament they participated in outside of Redbull where they lost to Secret. Their Summit result is already guaranteed to be better than other EU teams but Secret (and maybe Alliance/NaVi if they get in with the redemption vote and do well at LAN), and their Starladder result is guaranteed to be better than Empire, Asus Polar, NiP, HR, NaVi etc. This combined with their DAC result and the fact that all their players have very strong results before the shuffle should guarantee an invite. On April 19 2015 09:40 Piledriver wrote: TT deserves to be put in the EU qualifiers (even that's questionable). They don't deserve anything outside of that - putting them in NA qualifiers is a crime. I truly hope Valve calls GG Agency's bluff and put them where they belong. I don't follow why TT shouldn't be allowed in NA qualifiers. I always maintained even in the c9 case that ping is the only relevant factor when deciding what qualifier you should play in, and if TT have their teamhouse in Canada then they should play in NA qualifiers. I guess it can set some sort of a precedent that teams can just relocate temporarily somewhere, but I don't really see it becoming a real thing. The qualifying region doesn't even seem to be a point of discussion for any other teams but those that have a 3-2 split of players between the two continents. | ||
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shizaep
Canada2920 Posts
On April 19 2015 10:49 WolfintheSheep wrote: ...you realize there hasn't been any tournaments for them to "do shit" in? DAC was the only major tournament that even finished post-Western shuffle. Coming up is Starladder 12, which C9 qualified for, and The Summit, which C9 qualified for, and ESL One, which C9 is still playing to qualify for. And I guess i-League and DreamLeague if you consider them major, and C9/Secret/EG didn't even try for those. Fair enough. There's been a couple of smaller events like MLG and Malaysian, but C9 didn't even try for those. Besides that, they're notably absent from basically everything that's online right now: D2CL S5, Dreamleague, i-League, Esportal. I checked Liquipedia though and realized that they actually don't even participate in any of these events. So I guess I just don't see much of them compared to [A], NiP, ASUS, Empire who are fighting each other in these smaller events. I just remember C9's messy groupstage at DAC and them being nowhere near as clean as Secret or EG in their online games since then As it stands right now, this squad is still "unproven" in my eyes. It'll be interesting to see how they place in the next few high profile tourneys coming up. Personally, I don't see them cracking top 3 but maybe I'll be surprised | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
On April 19 2015 15:48 shizaep wrote: Fair enough. There's been a couple of smaller events like MLG and Malaysian, but C9 didn't even try for those. Besides that, they're notably absent from basically everything that's online right now: D2CL S5, Dreamleague, i-League, Esportal. I checked Liquipedia though and realized that they actually don't even participate in any of these events. So I guess I just don't see much of them compared to [A], NiP, ASUS, Empire who are fighting each other in these smaller events. I just remember C9's messy groupstage at DAC and them being nowhere near as clean as Secret or EG in their online games since then As it stands right now, this squad is still "unproven" in my eyes. It'll be interesting to see how they place in the next few high profile tourneys coming up. Personally, I don't see them cracking top 3 but maybe I'll be surprised EG has been far from clean after DAC. Their Dotapit group stage score was 6-4 while c9 was 5-5 (granted it's a cross region online event so I wouldn't put too much weight on EG's results there, they can either have a pretty big server advantage or disadvantage). They almost lost to Not Today in the Summit NA quals, and they didn't win MLG which they were heavily favored in. But of course this doesn't mean that they are somehow worse suddenly, we'll see how things stand in the next LANs. Even Secret being clean is a stretch. In some events Secret qualified in a pretty straightforward manner, but Secret was extremely close of losing to SFZ in Starladder and not making to the LAN at all as they also lost to Alliance 2-0 there. It's hard to keep your concentration up for every single online game, and every team tends to have these shaky moments. But Secret is also bootcamping now, we'll get a better view of their level at SL next week. Just to be clear, I don't mean that c9 has been any better during this time. To EG it's hard to compare as they don't play in the same region a lot of the time and Secret has been better in Dotapit and now Redbull (both qualified to SL and Summit). But every team seems to have had some phases where they don't look so strong. | ||
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fixed_point
Germany4891 Posts
On April 19 2015 09:40 Piledriver wrote: TT deserves to be put in the EU qualifiers (even that's questionable). They don't deserve anything outside of that - putting them in NA qualifiers is a crime. I truly hope Valve calls GG Agency's bluff and put them where they belong. Let me just quote myself from earlier: But there are exactly as many reasons to put TT in NA as in EU. TT has two players based in NA this past year, two players based in EU, and 1 EU citizen living in NA, returning from China. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On April 19 2015 16:45 fixed_point wrote: Let me just quote myself from earlier: No, they have 2 NA citizens, 1 EU player living in EU, and 2 EU players living in NA temporarily to try and game the system. | ||
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spudde123
4814 Posts
Though personally I don't find this all that relevant. 4 people of TT live in Canada atm, they play in NA qualifiers in different tournaments and such, I don't really see a problem in allowing them in the NA quals of TI even if they only relocated a few months before. Imo the most relevant part about the qualifier regions is that there is one qualifier played on NA servers and another one played on EU servers. If you happen to have better conditions playing on NA servers then play there. Firstly as I said teams abusing the system is hardly an issue as it is only a relevant question when the teams have a 3-2 split of players (and some of the NA people may live on the west coast even), and secondly "regional representation" is a pretty silly thing anyway unless you actually enforce teams to not have lineups with people from multiple continents. Current TT for example has 3 EU players and 2 NA players. I really don't feel they are a team that is "representing" one region. They are not representing EU, they are not representing NA. But people still insist on making some arbitrary call based on the 60-40 split of nationalities that they are 100% an EU team and they should play there no matter what their living situation or their pings are. | ||
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MetalMercury
United States1161 Posts
On April 19 2015 07:03 Evander Berry Wall wrote: I've also been thinking that Valve show invite fewer teams and qualify more, because of how difficult it is to tell who deserves to be invited this year. I thought everything in TI4 made sense. I have no idea about this year. I have a hard time even thinking of 7 teams to invite. Secret, C9, EG, VG, IG, LGD... I guess Malaysia? Assuming that Valve is going to invite at least one SEA team, Malaysia has already rapidly demonstrated that the dominate the division, and this only confirms what one would have already guessed based on the team roster. So let's say those 7. There's a problem with CIS. A lot of people would grumble about me not putting a CIS team on the invite list, but who you pick? VP (formerly Polar) and Empire seem almost exactly even, and the two of them are blatantly not as good as the top three western and eastern teams, not if you look at their overall record. And don't get me started on Na'Vi. It's just not a good time CIS. So, my book is, either something is resolved for a CIS representative, or leave the invites at 7, qualify two teams from each qualifier, and have a wildcard spot for all the third place finishers. I don't think that's what Valve is actually going to do, but that's what I would recommend. And no, I don't think Newbee should get an invite, and I'm not sure that they will. They have been doing terribly, ever since their first roster change, and they don't have their main carry or the guy who both assembled and captained the team when they won TI4, so they hardly even count. I don't think you're giving enough credit to Empire out of CIS; they did just win MLG Columbus. I'd say they are just as safe as Cloud 9 in terms of receiving a direct invite. | ||
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hfglgg
Germany5372 Posts
TT was a european team but with the addition of wayto they started to focus on NA tournaments. you can argue that forming teams shortly before the international isnt very nice for all the other teams who stayed together for a longer time but then no one was critisising NAR last year for forming 1 month prior to the qualifiers. its a silly "hurr they have the wrong blood running through their veins!!11". | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On April 20 2015 00:05 hfglgg wrote: the TT hate is ridiculous. qoiqjva has played for NA teams for over a year now and same is true for black with chinese teams. saying TT is a european team while 4 of their 5 players have almost no playtime in european tournaments is just silly. TT was a european team but with the addition of wayto they started to focus on NA tournaments. you can argue that forming teams shortly before the international isnt very nice for all the other teams who stayed together for a longer time but then no one was critisising NAR last year for forming 1 month prior to the qualifiers. its a silly "hurr they have the wrong blood running through their veins!!11". You're missing the point. If TT gets to be called NA just because 2 EU players chose to live in NA for a month before invites were sent, that's a clear greenlight that teams can move to whatever region they think is easier competition just to go to TI. Exactly what happened in SC2 with WCS, where we had Korea, Korea NA and Korea EU. | ||
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fixed_point
Germany4891 Posts
On April 20 2015 03:05 WolfintheSheep wrote: You're missing the point. If TT gets to be called NA just because 2 EU players chose to live in NA for a month before invites were sent, that's a clear greenlight that teams can move to whatever region they think is easier competition just to go to TI. Exactly what happened in SC2 with WCS, where we had Korea, Korea NA and Korea EU. On the other side of the coin, why would 3 people (black, wayto, bulba) who haven't played from EU in the past 2 years be forced to play in EU? Should TT not be not allowed to participate in any qualifiers at all? | ||
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hfglgg
Germany5372 Posts
On April 20 2015 03:05 WolfintheSheep wrote: You're missing the point. If TT gets to be called NA just because 2 EU players chose to live in NA for a month before invites were sent, that's a clear greenlight that teams can move to whatever region they think is easier competition just to go to TI. Exactly what happened in SC2 with WCS, where we had Korea, Korea NA and Korea EU. that would make sense if TT with their current roster would have a history playing in EU but they dont. only 2 of TTs players are of the original 5 and since then they have added wayto and black who both are no EU players. just look at their roster, 4 out of 5 players have played for non EU teams in the last international. it shouldnt matter what nationality you are, it should matter in which scene you are invested in and the TT players clearly have been more NA players than EU. even PLD was playing on a mixed team who, while more towards EU, have been active in the NA scene. if TT had changed their name after wayto joined, no one would claim they were an EU team. but i guess 2014 DK should have gotten the SEA invite, they had 2 SEA players. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On April 20 2015 03:37 hfglgg wrote: that would make sense if TT with their current roster would have a history playing in EU but they dont. only 2 of TTs players are of the original 5 and since then they have added wayto and black who both are no EU players. just look at their roster, 4 out of 5 players have played for non EU teams in the last international. it shouldnt matter what nationality you are, it should matter in which scene you are invested in and the TT players clearly have been more NA players than EU. even PLD was playing on a mixed team who, while more towards EU, have been active in the NA scene. if TT had changed their name after wayto joined, no one would claim they were an EU team. but i guess 2014 DK should have gotten the SEA invite, they had 2 SEA players. *Cough*WaterBoys*Cough* They're an EU team because they have 3 EU players and 2 NA players. PLD and Qojqva have lived and played in Europe for the last 2 years. Bulba and Wayto are NA, no arguments there. The only argument you seem to be making is that Black has no region because he's been in China for the last 6 months. But if it wasn't for trying to be in NA qualifiers, there's almost no doubt that he'd be back in Germany right now, and tournaments shouldn't allow teams to choose their region based on where they've spent less than a month bootcamping, especially not for The International. | ||
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fixed_point
Germany4891 Posts
They're an EU team because they have 3 EU players and 2 NA players I suppose if rave swapped one of their 3 filipinos for an NA player they should be an NA team? Citizenship seems to be an arbitrary line to draw and I'm glad Valve will probably not go with that. If that is the criteria to go by, you will have huge issues down the line with people who were raised in a different country their whole lives, but kept their original nationality, people with dual citizenships etc. And yes this is relevant because, as you said earlier, whatever Valve does sets a precedent. For a more extreme example: suppose you have a team of 3 NA players and 2 EU players, all living in NA. One of the NA players get sick, the team through no fault of their own has to replace him. The replacement is an EU citizen living in EU, but is willing to move to NA for the team. Is the team now forced to play in EU? Is the team forced to choose a potentially inferior replacement because their first choice has the wrong nationality? The only argument you seem to be making is that Black has no region because he's been in China for the last 6 months. More like 18 months. He has literally spent as much time in the Chinese scene as in the EU scene in his professional dota 2 career. But if it wasn't for trying to be in NA qualifiers, there's almost no doubt that he'd be back in Germany right now, and tournaments shouldn't allow teams to choose their region based on where they've spent less than a month bootcamping, especially not for The International. This comment seems contradictory to your first. So you're saying a team of 5 NA citizens who have lived and played in EU for a few years should not go back to NA to bootcamp a month before the NA TI qualifiers? I agree, but where would they play, if they are not allowed to play in EU based on their nationality? The situation here is not as clear as WCS because a team is made of 5 individuals, all with potentially different backgrounds. | ||
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