|
There is at least several precedents that are already set. C9 was an EU team when they had 3 EU players and 2 NA players (though they got a direct invite, so it was largely irrelevant), even when other tournaments shuffled them between whatever region C9 wanted. Zephyr was a SEA team despite being 5 NA players, because they spent half a year in Korean playing in a Korean league. Citizenship clearly isn't the dividing line, and I don't think it should be.
However, all that is completely irrelevant, because the situation with TT has nothing to with any of that. It's blatantly obvious they're only trying to be an NA team for qualification purposes. For like 7 months or so they were an EU team playing in EU qualifiers, and throughout all the shuffling and musical chairs were a team of 4EU+1NA. Then in the last couple of months, they picked up two more NA players (Wayto and Patsoul), tried to rename their team to clean their slate, which they were rightfully denied. Then when Patsoul leaves and they're back to 3 EU, they set up a bootcamp in Canada and have Black and PLD move there.
If circumstances were slightly different, if there was some actual plausible deniability about their actions, and if TT at any point in their history had actually invested themselves in the NA scene (or had stuck with a team of more NA players), there would be an argument. But their actions are fairly blatant, and Valve shouldn't set a precedent where this kind of region shopping is allowed.
|
On April 20 2015 05:17 WolfintheSheep wrote:
There is at least several precedents that are already set. C9 was an EU team when they had 3 EU players and 2 NA players (though they got a direct invite, so it was largely irrelevant), even when other tournaments shuffled them between whatever region C9 wanted. Zephyr was a SEA team despite being 5 NA players, because they spent half a year in Korean playing in a Korean league. Citizenship clearly isn't the dividing line, and I don't think it should be.
However, all that is completely irrelevant, because the situation with TT has nothing to with any of that. It's blatantly obvious they're only trying to be an NA team for qualification purposes. For like 7 months or so they were an EU team playing in EU qualifiers, and throughout all the shuffling and musical chairs were a team of 4EU+1NA. Then in the last couple of months, they picked up two more NA players (Wayto and Patsoul), tried to rename their team to clean their slate, which they were rightfully denied. Then when Patsoul leaves and they're back to 3 EU, they set up a bootcamp in Canada and have Black and PLD move there.
If circumstances were slightly different, if there was some actual plausible deniability about their actions, and if TT at any point in their history had actually invested themselves in the NA scene (or had stuck with a team of more NA players), there would be an argument. But their actions are fairly blatant, and Valve shouldn't set a precedent where this kind of region shopping is allowed.
Ok sure. I think we can agree that any objection to tinker being in the NA qualifiers should not come from the fact that they are 3 EU and 2 NA citizens. It seems that your argument has now shifted back to the organisational practices of TT the organisation. There I would certainly agree with you: the organisation itself has not done anything to ingratiate themselves with the NA scene, and obviously the manager feels the team has a better shot in NA than in EU.
Nevertheless, it makes sense at the time for a team with 4 EU citizens living in EU + 1 NA living in NA to play in EU. I believe it is reasonable for a new iteration of the team with 2 NA players and 3 EU players, that if 2 of those EU players were not part of the previous team and are willing to move to NA for their new team immediately, to play in the NA qualifiers. Yes, it's a bit too close to the qualifiers, but remember that the two EU members moving over had just been kicked from their previous squads. Moreover, the new members of TT are never going to be able to establish themselves in the NA scene if they are not the opportunity to start to do so. TT might be able to move their NA players to EU for the qualifiers, but I feel they are not obligated to do so. In particular, I think the players are justified in having a choice between the NA and EU qualifiers.
It is my view that TI has always been about the players and not the organisation. You can dislike the organisation all you like, but circumstances can change and I think we should not punish, nor should we base our perception of the current players for what a previous squad did. I would count a squad of 4 or 5 people moving together to another scene as 'region skipping' (not that I have strong objections about that), but not when 2/5 of the original squad are doing the 'skipping'. Especially considering those 2 have been invested in the NA scene before and when 3/5 of the current squad were together at last year's NA qualifiers. Of the remaining 2 members of the current squad, one was invited under a mixed na/eu banner and the other one went to the wildcard with a chinese squad. Literally none of them have played in last year's EU qualifiers.
|
It's not about punishment or reward, it's about making fair rulings. TI is about the players, and it's also about regional representation. So Valve should protect the players who have dedicated the year to a region, and make sure they still get their fair shot over teams that are trying to play fast and loose with the rules.
And if they don't, then it'll be almost guaranteed that you'll have teams trying to sneak themselves into SEA and NA at the last minute next year; you just can't pass up TI money, even if you have to trick your way in.
|
On April 20 2015 07:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
It's not about punishment or reward, it's about making fair rulings. TI is about the players, and it's also about regional representation. So Valve should protect the players who have dedicated the year to a region, and make sure they still get their fair shot over teams that are trying to play fast and loose with the rules.
And if they don't, then it'll be almost guaranteed that you'll have teams trying to sneak themselves into SEA and NA at the last minute next year; you just can't pass up TI money, even if you have to trick your way in.
Alright I agree with your point if we are talking about direct invites, but not for qualifiers. The players who 'dedicated the year to a region' get their fair shot by being invited to the qualifiers. I don't think we can argue about whether TT is playing fast and loose with the rules, because no one but valve knows what the rules are. Morally speaking though, I still contend that the players of TT have nothing to be ashamed of.
I agree that only one of the players of TT have dedicated themselves to NA fully in the past 9 months, but it's not like the others have absolutely no history in this region. Like I said earlier, 3/5 of the team went to TI together through the American wildcard qualifier, with bulba and wayto basically mainstays in the scene by now. So I guess the question becomes whether to discount everything before the previous TI. It seems a bit arbitrary to me: 9 months is not a long time, especially when there was basically no scene (or teams for that matter) anywhere for two months after TI and we've since undergone two great Western shuffles and two great Chinese shuffles where players have switched scenes. Compare:
- 40% of Secret were not playing in EU (current squad has been together for only 3.5 months)
- 40% of EG were not playing in NA (current squad has been together for only 3.5 months)
- 60% of TT has played in NA in the past year, 60% has played in EU in the past year (current squad 1.5 months).
- 3/5 players on TT have been on a same team together representing NA at TI4
If Secret and EG are almost certainly secured invites in that short period from their respective region despite 2/5 players never having any significant history in that region, I'd say a team where 3/5 players have a significantly longer history (albeit not 'current') in the NA scene deserves to be invited to the NA qualifiers without being called names.
As for TT in the NA qualifiers being analogous to a whole team uprooting and 'sneaking' into the SEA scene, I don't subscribe to that logic. Let me give an example: if Chuan, iceiceice, Mushi, Ohaiyo, and kyxy made a team in SEA 1.5 months ago and posted decent results, say the same results as Team MY, would you invite them to the SEA qualifiers? (keep in mind nationality has no bearing on 'dedicating the year to a region').
- Chuan has never touched the SEA dota 2 scene
- iceiceice has spent the past 1.5 years in China
- Mushi has played a grand total of 3 months in SEA since TI4 (and didn't play in SEA a year before that)
- Ohaiyo has spent 4.5 months in the past 7 in SEA, 2 months in China
- kyxy has spent the whole time since TI4 in SEA.
- 80% of the team has played in China in the past year, 60% has played in SEA in the past year. 3/5 players were in the same squad representing SEA in TI3.
kyxy already lives in KL. Mushi, iceiceice and Ohaiyo (1.5 months ago) would have still been in China, but willing to move back to KL. Chuan, citing business reasons, opts to stay in China; finds a magical way to play on the SEA servers.
Would it be justified to invite this team to the SEA qualifiers? I certainly hope so. Obviously they could get a team house in Shanghai and participate in the CN qualifiers, but I believe they are equally justified in participating in the SEA ones if they choose to based on their pedigree in the SEA scene.
|
There is absolutely nothing arbitrary about only counting everything after TI4. Season ended, new season started.
And you're making this out to be far more complicated than it actually is. For any other tournament, where you current live and which servers you play on is enough to determine your region.
But TI has always run on stricter rules than every other tournament, and for good reason: because there's so much money, and teams/players are going to go to great lengths to get it. So if a team looks like they're trying to abuse the system in some way to get an advantage, Valve shouldn't let them.
|
Its just a bit sketchy because of the timing imo. If they had decided to build a teamhouse in america 2 months ago no one wouldve questioned TT's eligibility. What happens if leviathan makes a teamhouse in SEA a month before the invites go out?
|
Lets be real leviathan wouldn't get through SEA'
It'd be Zephyr all over again.
|
On April 20 2015 10:39 WolfintheSheep wrote:
There is absolutely nothing arbitrary about only counting everything after TI4. Season ended, new season started.
And you're making this out to be far more complicated than it actually is. For any other tournament, where you current live and which servers you play on is enough to determine your region.
But TI has always run on stricter rules than every other tournament, and for good reason: because there's so much money, and teams/players are going to go to great lengths to get it. So if a team looks like they're trying to abuse the system in some way to get an advantage, Valve shouldn't let them.
Well there's a point where I don't think we'll ever reconcile on. You keep using words like abuse, deceitful, but without any concrete rules, what are they abusing? What are they deceiving? At what point would you accept TT as an 'NA team'? 3 months? 5 months? Your grievance seems to be more of a subjective one, rather than objective, and the changes in your argument reflects that. That's fine, I'm not out to change how you feel about TT, nor do I think it's possible at this point. What I'm saying is that the crux of your argument is not well defined. Intentions has no bearing on the team's eligibility to enter a qualifiers.
If TT built a teamhouse in EU instead of NA, would you accuse them of tricking the system, keeping in mind that 2/5 players didn't even touch the EU scene in the past 2 'seasons'? If not, is there a significant difference between 2/5 players and 3/5 players?
If the invites to the qualifiers are to reflect the contributions to the scene, it does not take into account the relative strengths of the scenes. Only objection I can see is that the players on TT has more collective experience on EU than NA in the past months. They do, just barely. I still contend TT has a justified and moral right to choose between EU and NA. Obviously valve might not feel the same way, but the case for it I believe is sound, and TT are a bit hard done by to experience so much vitriol for making that case. A case as close as this should not be considered the same situation as a fresh team of 5 moving to SEA, as the popular example goes.
On April 20 2015 13:27 Spicy_Curry wrote:
Its just a bit sketchy because of the timing imo. If they had decided to build a teamhouse in america 2 months ago no one wouldve questioned TT's eligibility. What happens if leviathan makes a teamhouse in SEA a month before the invites go out?
Leviathan has absolutely no previous experience in the SEA scene, most of TT has a rather extensive one in the NA scene. So once again the question boils down to whether we should ignore all previous contribution to the scene. Because if we do that, if a team of 5 veteran SEA players retired before TI4 and unretired 1.5 months ago and posted the same results as Team MY, they have no qualifiers they can participate in even if they are clearly the best team in the region.
|
Why is this based on the players?
Shouldnt it be based on where the actuall organization is from?
Like, C9 is America, EG is American, Secret is European etc.?
Its like LGD.int, were counted as a Chinese team, but they had no Chinese players.
Or am i missing asomething vital here?
|
On April 20 2015 20:09 fixed_point wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 10:39 WolfintheSheep wrote:
There is absolutely nothing arbitrary about only counting everything after TI4. Season ended, new season started.
And you're making this out to be far more complicated than it actually is. For any other tournament, where you current live and which servers you play on is enough to determine your region.
But TI has always run on stricter rules than every other tournament, and for good reason: because there's so much money, and teams/players are going to go to great lengths to get it. So if a team looks like they're trying to abuse the system in some way to get an advantage, Valve shouldn't let them. Well there's a point where I don't think we'll ever reconcile on. You keep using words like abuse, deceitful, but without any concrete rules, what are they abusing? What are they deceiving? At what point would you accept TT as an 'NA team'? 3 months? 5 months? Your grievance seems to be more of a subjective one, rather than objective, and the changes in your argument reflects that. That's fine, I'm not out to change how you feel about TT, nor do I think it's possible at this point. What I'm saying is that the crux of your argument is not well defined. Intentions has no bearing on the team's eligibility to enter a qualifiers. If TT built a teamhouse in EU instead of NA, would you accuse them of tricking the system, keeping in mind that 2/5 players didn't even touch the EU scene in the past 2 'seasons'? If not, is there a significant difference between 2/5 players and 3/5 players? If the invites to the qualifiers are to reflect the contributions to the scene, it does not take into account the relative strengths of the scenes. Only objection I can see is that the players on TT has more collective experience on EU than NA in the past months. They do, just barely. I still contend TT has a justified and moral right to choose between EU and NA. Obviously valve might not feel the same way, but the case for it I believe is sound, and TT are a bit hard done by to experience so much vitriol for making that case. A case as close as this should not be considered the same situation as a fresh team of 5 moving to SEA, as the popular example goes. Show nested quote +On April 20 2015 13:27 Spicy_Curry wrote:
Its just a bit sketchy because of the timing imo. If they had decided to build a teamhouse in america 2 months ago no one wouldve questioned TT's eligibility. What happens if leviathan makes a teamhouse in SEA a month before the invites go out? Leviathan has absolutely no previous experience in the SEA scene, most of TT has a rather extensive one in the NA scene. So once again the question boils down to whether we should ignore all previous contribution to the scene. Because if we do that, if a team of 5 veteran SEA players retired before TI4 and unretired 1.5 months ago and posted the same results as Team MY, they have no qualifiers they can participate in even if they are clearly the best team in the region.
I'm calling it an abuse of the system because their actions show that they know extremely well what they're intending to do. They already tried to make the team an NA majority, but that fell apart. And PLD and Black wouldn't have moved to Canada for the next couple of months if they believed they could be considered an NA team otherwise. They know they're EU, know they would be considered EU by every tournament, so they're placing themselves on NA servers to try and get classified as NA.
And again, it's not about punishment or reward, it should be about Valve making a clear statement about region shopping.
Your example of 5 SEA players is also irrelevant, because they're 5 SEA players. Even if they'd been playing in China for 8 months, and only returned to SEA in March or something, I would still put them in the SEA qualifiers. Player nationality should count for the most, and the exceptions like LGD.int and Zephyr being made because they've committed to other regions.
A better example would be if a team like VG was struggling, so they made some trades, got Mushi to have two SEA players, and moved the whole team down to Malaysia.
On April 20 2015 20:37 Atoissen wrote:
Why is this based on the players?
Shouldnt it be based on where the actuall organization is from?
Like, C9 is America, EG is American, Secret is European etc.?
Its like LGD.int, were counted as a Chinese team, but they had no Chinese players.
Or am i missing asomething vital here?
Teams like LGD.int and Zephyr played exclusively from China and Korea, respectively, for almost half a year before invites, which is why they were lumped into those regions.
Liquid was considered an American team because that's where the players were from (and played from), despite the organization being based in Sweden.
|
ok, but Qojqva, wayto, and bulba, have all been NA players for the past Year + with old liquid
Black was a chinese player, and has moved to america in the last year +
So the only player that has regularly played euro scene on tinker is PLD
|
On April 21 2015 08:49 Shaella wrote:
ok, but Qojqva, wayto, and bulba, have all been NA players for the past Year + with old liquid
Black was a chinese player, and has moved to america in the last year +
So the only player that has regularly played euro scene on tinker is PLD
1) Your numbers are all fucked up. Liquid hasn't even existed for the last 8 months. Wayto hasn't even been on a team for the last 7. Black has been in Canada for a month, not a year+. Qojqva and Bulba have been in every EU qualifier since TI4, with the exception of the Summit 3 (maybe one other).
2) How do you become a "Chinese" or "NA" player? Black and Qojqva never stopped being German just because they were on VG or Liquid.
|
Alright. No point in trying to explain to you.
|
On April 21 2015 02:35 WolfintheSheep wrote:
Your example of 5 SEA players is also irrelevant, because they're 5 SEA players. Even if they'd been playing in China for 8 months, and only returned to SEA in March or something, I would still put them in the SEA qualifiers. Player nationality should count for the most, and the exceptions like LGD.int and Zephyr being made because they've committed to other regions.
why should player nationality matter at all? in professional sports its completely normal to relocate and play for a team in a different country if you see your career chances higher abroad. there are teams in football who have field no players of the teams country. in dota teams are less important but why shouldnt players be able to move wherever they see their highest chances? if teams did this more frequently it would also benefit the other, weaker scenes because they get a boost in competition (which is good) and viewer interest (which is also good).
i am with you though, that players should be invested into the scene before they are eligible for the qualifiers. however in TTs case they have been a NA team since wayto joined them and that was early february. in starladder, the most recent premier event, they played in the NA qualifiers. starladder also started before black joined them. in TS3 they were in the american qualifers as well.
if ~3 month is enough time to justify an invite is up to debate, but if it isnt then other teams like summers rift should not get an invite either and the last years qualifiers winner NAR, who formed mid april and their players not having played for months/years/ever in the NA scene, was a mistake.
if the criticism against TT comes down to a simple minded "THEY TOOK OUR JOBS!", it is really pathetic.
yes, weaker scenes need to be protected if foreign teams sweep their tournaments and leave immediately afterwards but that isnt the case. they have already been active in the NA scene and their players even have a history with NA. they are not faceless koreans.
there are only two logical conclusions possible.
a) TT is eligible for an NA qualifier spot, because they have been invested enough in the NA scene (SL12, TS3, iLeague 3)
b) TT is not eligible for an NA qualifier spot, because they have not been invested enough in the NA scene.
if b), in my view, they should not be able to play in the EU qualifiers as well because they nullified all their achievments in the EU scene with switching to NA. you cant be in both scenes.
b would also have implications for a lot of other teams that form very late and valve kind of already did a decision on that with inviting NAR (which very few criticed, guess they had the right color of their skin) last year.
|
Player nationality is a weird-ass thing in professional sports. Take something like Tennis, where quite a few pros live full time in another country to train, but are still considered a member of their birth nationality for the Olympics. Ditto to a lot of other sports, unless they actually get citizenship.
And for the most part, I'd say it doesn't matter. Other tournaments should decide placement based on the best servers, which would be NA for TT, and there shouldn't be much question there.
But TI is the tournament that the scene revolves around, and teams are apparently validated or invalidated by if they've made it there. And, importantly, Valve makes specific efforts to separate teams by their regions, regardless of if teams like Arrow and MUFC can compete against the global competition, which clearly shows that Valve wants each region (and the players from those regions) to be at the tournament.
If Team Tinker had been a little less blatant in trying to force themselves into NA, if their second to last shuffle didn't involved dropping 2 EU players and picking up 2 NA players, if they hadn't created an NA teamhouse ASAP just to put two EU players in NA...really, if there had been any amount of plausible deniability in their actions, then it wouldn't be an issue. As it stands, though, letting TT into NA tells every single struggling team next year that their best option to get to TI is to force their way into an easier region.
If you thought all the last-minute shuffling this year was bad, wait 'till next year when EU teams pick up random NA players and Chinese teams grab a couple SEA players.
|
i think you're really reading way too much into this, rofl.
|
you really seem to have a big problem with the fact that teams can change. i wonder if in your eyes there are two navi's right now, one with ppy and kky and the other with dendi, hvost and funn1k because change is clearly not something you understand well.
i find the thought alone that someone goes to wayto and tells him that he can not play with bulba together on an NA based team because bulba played for an EU team this season completely and utterly retarded. where do you draw the line there? is secret now an NA team because zai and arteezy joined them? are they less european now?
its pretty clear by now that the international is not about team brands, but about the players and the players by all means should be free to choose their teammates.
ok but you have for some odd reason the impression that TT will hurt the development of the NA scene, but why? lets assume TT gets indeed to TI5 through the NA qualifier, lets further assume they do well there and wont disband afterwards. do you really think TT would go back to consider themself a european team afterwards? thats ridiculous, its by all means easier to qualify for all events through the NA qualifiers, of course TT would still be an NA team.
now lets go even further and say that TT has the same roster at TI6, would they then be an NA team in your eyes?
if yes you think that for TI5 TT has not been invested enough in the NA scene although having played all major tournaments in the NA qualifiers since wayto joined (SL12, TS3, iLeague). thats fair, but then you have to be more precise how long players have to be on active teams before they are eligible for a qualifier spot in a specific region, well and i am quite certain that teams that are just as much as cheap last minute trys to get into the qualifier like NAR or summers rift should not be able to play at the international as well then.
oh and i wouldnt call wayto, bulba, black, qoqjva and pld "random players". black is probably one of the most iconic player and every scene that has him will probably see a surge in viewer interest and that is something NA is in dire need of, because lets face it, the NA scene is complete and utter shit right now. luckily they have peruvians to save at least a bit of face. more NA-EU joint ventures (like c9, TT, Team Dog and countless other teams in the past) can only be good for NA because the scene really can not get any worse.
|
I think you're reading far too much into my statements than there actually is, so I'll sum it up simply:
1) Valve has no clear-cut guidelines about invites, and enforce purely on the spirit of their intentions.
2) Team Tinker are obviously fishing for rule loopholes to play in an easier region.
If all the arguments for TT being NA come down to percentages and numbers and lines being drawn somewhere, then it's fairly obviously it's being forced in by technicalities. And just like how Valve's only real policy towards roster changes is "no nonsense", it should be the same toward regions.
|
Your example of 5 SEA players is also irrelevant, because they're 5 SEA players. Even if they'd been playing in China for 8 months, and only returned to SEA in March or something, I would still put them in the SEA qualifiers. Player nationality should count for the most, and the exceptions like LGD.int and Zephyr being made because they've committed to other regions.
Didn't we just agree a few posts ago player national doesn't matter that much?!.
Citizenship clearly isn't the dividing line, and I don't think it should be.
You need to stop flip flopping on your arguments.
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
