TI5 invites?

On April 17 2015 08:39 Spicy_Curry wrote:
I doubt valve will put TT in the NA qualifiers because then other teams will abuse location to their advantage. What if TT moved to singapore because the SEA scene is so weak?

On April 17 2015 11:13 meegrean wrote:
Newbee as last year's TI champion will be invited, but I think they will end up at the bottom. Other than the expected invites, I think Empire and Rave deserve invites too, judging from how they have been playing compared to their respective regions.

On April 17 2015 14:49 schmitty9800 wrote:
It's fun that we need two predictions; one for the invite format, one for the teams.

My crack:
EU+CIS: 4 invites. C9, Secret, Empire, Hellraisers
SEA: 2 invites. Rave, Team Malaysia
CN: 4 invites. iG, LGD, VG, Newbee
AM: 1 invite. EG

Qualifiers I think will be similar to last year; four regions, #1 gets in, #2 will play for the last spot.

On April 17 2015 20:13 Atoissen wrote:
They didnt fall flat in DAC tho... 9 wins in group stage. And no real shame in going out too VG in the playoffs when its ur first big LAN on another continent.
Then again, C9 and Secret havent really showed alott in 2015, they are ofc teams packed with stars, but I wonder what Valve make theier invites based on?
I almost feel like Secret or C9 needs to win Starladder to be secured.
I hope and think EU and China both have 3 invited and 3 qual teams, they most packed regions by far.

On April 17 2015 20:13 Atoissen wrote:
They didnt fall flat in DAC tho... 9 wins in group stage. And no real shame in going out too VG in the playoffs when its ur first big LAN on another continent.
Then again, C9 and Secret havent really showed alott in 2015, they are ofc teams packed with stars, but I wonder what Valve make theier invites based on?
I almost feel like Secret or C9 needs to win Starladder to be secured.
I hope and think EU and China both have 3 invited and 3 qual teams, they most packed regions by far.

On April 17 2015 08:39 Spicy_Curry wrote:
I doubt valve will put TT in the NA qualifiers because then other teams will abuse location to their advantage. What if TT moved to singapore because the SEA scene is so weak?

On April 17 2015 19:11 teddyoojo wrote:

no way sea gets 2 invites they get 1 invite if theyre lucky

On April 18 2015 02:04 GranDGranT wrote:
if NoT today does something at TS3 they will get an invite

On April 18 2015 01:30 Qody wrote:


my predictions.

http://www.liquiddota.com/blogs/475845-if-ti5-invites-were-today

On April 17 2015 23:46 MetalMercury wrote:


They should get two invites, they have two teams that deserve it based on their performances this year.

On April 18 2015 04:31 Shaella wrote:
Not this fucking year, not since their roster change

They haven't won anything since their roster change. They haven't made top 3 at anything yet.

On April 18 2015 06:44 Churrass wrote:


beating tier 4 SEA teams deserves a TI5 invite ?

On April 18 2015 07:07 WolfintheSheep wrote:

MVP's had some decent placements, above teams like NiP, Na'vi and HR.

Rave, of course, got 5-6th at DAC, and are basically a shoe-in for the SEA invite provided they can get a couple more decent placements.

I don't think SEA will get 2 invites, but at the same time if a team like MVP won't get an invite, EU doesn't really deserve more than 3 either.

On April 18 2015 12:38 Churrass wrote:


which tourney MVP had some decent placements ? most of the tournaments i see they are close to last place
i dont know why you would consider then better than virtus pro (asus) or empire or even NIP
rave will probably get invited because of DAC but i think it was just a one hit wonder for then

On April 18 2015 06:45 Shaella wrote:
if thats the case TT deserves an NA invite rofl

On April 19 2015 10:12 shizaep wrote:
If you look at c9's new roster, they actually haven't done shit besides 5-6th at DAC, where they were put into NA quals (essentially invited). Yeah, DAC was a t1 lan but I definitely wouldn't equate it to TI. After that, they've been very underwhelming besides one money run through TS3 lower bracket. (I don't think they even qualified for ESL one?)

On April 19 2015 09:40 Piledriver wrote:


TT deserves to be put in the EU qualifiers (even that's questionable). They don't deserve anything outside of that - putting them in NA qualifiers is a crime. I truly hope Valve calls GG Agency's bluff and put them where they belong.

On April 19 2015 10:49 WolfintheSheep wrote:

...you realize there hasn't been any tournaments for them to "do shit" in?

DAC was the only major tournament that even finished post-Western shuffle. Coming up is Starladder 12, which C9 qualified for, and The Summit, which C9 qualified for, and ESL One, which C9 is still playing to qualify for. And I guess i-League and DreamLeague if you consider them major, and C9/Secret/EG didn't even try for those.

On April 19 2015 15:48 shizaep wrote:

Fair enough. There's been a couple of smaller events like MLG and Malaysian, but C9 didn't even try for those. Besides that, they're notably absent from basically everything that's online right now: D2CL S5, Dreamleague, i-League, Esportal. I checked Liquipedia though and realized that they actually don't even participate in any of these events.

So I guess I just don't see much of them compared to [A], NiP, ASUS, Empire who are fighting each other in these smaller events. I just remember C9's messy groupstage at DAC and them being nowhere near as clean as Secret or EG in their online games since then

As it stands right now, this squad is still "unproven" in my eyes. It'll be interesting to see how they place in the next few high profile tourneys coming up. Personally, I don't see them cracking top 3 but maybe I'll be surprised

On April 19 2015 09:40 Piledriver wrote:


TT deserves to be put in the EU qualifiers (even that's questionable). They don't deserve anything outside of that - putting them in NA qualifiers is a crime. I truly hope Valve calls GG Agency's bluff and put them where they belong.

But there are exactly as many reasons to put TT in NA as in EU. TT has two players based in NA this past year, two players based in EU, and 1 EU citizen living in NA, returning from China.

On April 19 2015 16:45 fixed_point wrote:

Let me just quote myself from earlier:

On April 19 2015 07:03 Evander Berry Wall wrote:
I've also been thinking that Valve show invite fewer teams and qualify more, because of how difficult it is to tell who deserves to be invited this year. I thought everything in TI4 made sense. I have no idea about this year. I have a hard time even thinking of 7 teams to invite.

Secret, C9, EG, VG, IG, LGD... I guess Malaysia? Assuming that Valve is going to invite at least one SEA team, Malaysia has already rapidly demonstrated that the dominate the division, and this only confirms what one would have already guessed based on the team roster. So let's say those 7.

There's a problem with CIS. A lot of people would grumble about me not putting a CIS team on the invite list, but who you pick? VP (formerly Polar) and Empire seem almost exactly even, and the two of them are blatantly not as good as the top three western and eastern teams, not if you look at their overall record. And don't get me started on Na'Vi. It's just not a good time CIS.

So, my book is, either something is resolved for a CIS representative, or leave the invites at 7, qualify two teams from each qualifier, and have a wildcard spot for all the third place finishers.

I don't think that's what Valve is actually going to do, but that's what I would recommend.

And no, I don't think Newbee should get an invite, and I'm not sure that they will. They have been doing terribly, ever since their first roster change, and they don't have their main carry or the guy who both assembled and captained the team when they won TI4, so they hardly even count.

On April 20 2015 00:05 hfglgg wrote:
the TT hate is ridiculous. qoiqjva has played for NA teams for over a year now and same is true for black with chinese teams. saying TT is a european team while 4 of their 5 players have almost no playtime in european tournaments is just silly.
TT was a european team but with the addition of wayto they started to focus on NA tournaments. you can argue that forming teams shortly before the international isnt very nice for all the other teams who stayed together for a longer time but then no one was critisising NAR last year for forming 1 month prior to the qualifiers.
its a silly "hurr they have the wrong blood running through their veins!!11".

On April 20 2015 03:05 WolfintheSheep wrote:

You're missing the point.

If TT gets to be called NA just because 2 EU players chose to live in NA for a month before invites were sent, that's a clear greenlight that teams can move to whatever region they think is easier competition just to go to TI.

Exactly what happened in SC2 with WCS, where we had Korea, Korea NA and Korea EU.

On April 20 2015 03:05 WolfintheSheep wrote:

You're missing the point.

If TT gets to be called NA just because 2 EU players chose to live in NA for a month before invites were sent, that's a clear greenlight that teams can move to whatever region they think is easier competition just to go to TI.

Exactly what happened in SC2 with WCS, where we had Korea, Korea NA and Korea EU.

On April 20 2015 03:37 hfglgg wrote:


that would make sense if TT with their current roster would have a history playing in EU but they dont. only 2 of TTs players are of the original 5 and since then they have added wayto and black who both are no EU players. just look at their roster,
4 out of 5 players have played for non EU teams in the last international.

it shouldnt matter what nationality you are, it should matter in which scene you are invested in and the TT players clearly have been more NA players than EU. even PLD was playing on a mixed team who, while more towards EU, have been active in the NA scene.

if TT had changed their name after wayto joined, no one would claim they were an EU team.
but i guess 2014 DK should have gotten the SEA invite, they had 2 SEA players.

They're an EU team because they have 3 EU players and 2 NA players

The only argument you seem to be making is that Black has no region because he's been in China for the last 6 months.

But if it wasn't for trying to be in NA qualifiers, there's almost no doubt that he'd be back in Germany right now, and tournaments shouldn't allow teams to choose their region based on where they've spent less than a month bootcamping, especially not for The International.

On April 20 2015 05:17 WolfintheSheep wrote:
There is at least several precedents that are already set. C9 was an EU team when they had 3 EU players and 2 NA players (though they got a direct invite, so it was largely irrelevant), even when other tournaments shuffled them between whatever region C9 wanted. Zephyr was a SEA team despite being 5 NA players, because they spent half a year in Korean playing in a Korean league. Citizenship clearly isn't the dividing line, and I don't think it should be.

However, all that is completely irrelevant, because the situation with TT has nothing to with any of that. It's blatantly obvious they're only trying to be an NA team for qualification purposes. For like 7 months or so they were an EU team playing in EU qualifiers, and throughout all the shuffling and musical chairs were a team of 4EU+1NA. Then in the last couple of months, they picked up two more NA players (Wayto and Patsoul), tried to rename their team to clean their slate, which they were rightfully denied. Then when Patsoul leaves and they're back to 3 EU, they set up a bootcamp in Canada and have Black and PLD move there.

If circumstances were slightly different, if there was some actual plausible deniability about their actions, and if TT at any point in their history had actually invested themselves in the NA scene (or had stuck with a team of more NA players), there would be an argument. But their actions are fairly blatant, and Valve shouldn't set a precedent where this kind of region shopping is allowed.

On April 20 2015 07:56 WolfintheSheep wrote:
It's not about punishment or reward, it's about making fair rulings. TI is about the players, and it's also about regional representation. So Valve should protect the players who have dedicated the year to a region, and make sure they still get their fair shot over teams that are trying to play fast and loose with the rules.

And if they don't, then it'll be almost guaranteed that you'll have teams trying to sneak themselves into SEA and NA at the last minute next year; you just can't pass up TI money, even if you have to trick your way in.

On April 20 2015 10:39 WolfintheSheep wrote:
There is absolutely nothing arbitrary about only counting everything after TI4. Season ended, new season started.

And you're making this out to be far more complicated than it actually is. For any other tournament, where you current live and which servers you play on is enough to determine your region.

But TI has always run on stricter rules than every other tournament, and for good reason: because there's so much money, and teams/players are going to go to great lengths to get it. So if a team looks like they're trying to abuse the system in some way to get an advantage, Valve shouldn't let them.

On April 20 2015 13:27 Spicy_Curry wrote:
Its just a bit sketchy because of the timing imo. If they had decided to build a teamhouse in america 2 months ago no one wouldve questioned TT's eligibility. What happens if leviathan makes a teamhouse in SEA a month before the invites go out?

On April 20 2015 20:09 fixed_point wrote:


Well there's a point where I don't think we'll ever reconcile on. You keep using words like abuse, deceitful, but without any concrete rules, what are they abusing? What are they deceiving? At what point would you accept TT as an 'NA team'? 3 months? 5 months? Your grievance seems to be more of a subjective one, rather than objective, and the changes in your argument reflects that. That's fine, I'm not out to change how you feel about TT, nor do I think it's possible at this point. What I'm saying is that the crux of your argument is not well defined. Intentions has no bearing on the team's eligibility to enter a qualifiers.

If TT built a teamhouse in EU instead of NA, would you accuse them of tricking the system, keeping in mind that 2/5 players didn't even touch the EU scene in the past 2 'seasons'? If not, is there a significant difference between 2/5 players and 3/5 players?

If the invites to the qualifiers are to reflect the contributions to the scene, it does not take into account the relative strengths of the scenes. Only objection I can see is that the players on TT has more collective experience on EU than NA in the past months. They do, just barely. I still contend TT has a justified and moral right to choose between EU and NA. Obviously valve might not feel the same way, but the case for it I believe is sound, and TT are a bit hard done by to experience so much vitriol for making that case. A case as close as this should not be considered the same situation as a fresh team of 5 moving to SEA, as the popular example goes.



Leviathan has absolutely no previous experience in the SEA scene, most of TT has a rather extensive one in the NA scene. So once again the question boils down to whether we should ignore all previous contribution to the scene. Because if we do that, if a team of 5 veteran SEA players retired before TI4 and unretired 1.5 months ago and posted the same results as Team MY, they have no qualifiers they can participate in even if they are clearly the best team in the region.

On April 20 2015 20:37 Atoissen wrote:
Why is this based on the players?
Shouldnt it be based on where the actuall organization is from?
Like, C9 is America, EG is American, Secret is European etc.?

Its like LGD.int, were counted as a Chinese team, but they had no Chinese players.

Or am i missing asomething vital here?

On April 21 2015 08:49 Shaella wrote:
ok, but Qojqva, wayto, and bulba, have all been NA players for the past Year + with old liquid

Black was a chinese player, and has moved to america in the last year +

So the only player that has regularly played euro scene on tinker is PLD

On April 21 2015 02:35 WolfintheSheep wrote:



Your example of 5 SEA players is also irrelevant, because they're 5 SEA players. Even if they'd been playing in China for 8 months, and only returned to SEA in March or something, I would still put them in the SEA qualifiers. Player nationality should count for the most, and the exceptions like LGD.int and Zephyr being made because they've committed to other regions.

Your example of 5 SEA players is also irrelevant, because they're 5 SEA players. Even if they'd been playing in China for 8 months, and only returned to SEA in March or something, I would still put them in the SEA qualifiers. Player nationality should count for the most, and the exceptions like LGD.int and Zephyr being made because they've committed to other regions.

Citizenship clearly isn't the dividing line, and I don't think it should be.

On April 22 2015 08:17 fixed_point wrote:

Didn't we just agree a few posts ago player national doesn't matter that much?!.


You need to stop flip flopping on your arguments.

On April 22 2015 10:05 WolfintheSheep wrote:

No, I think nationality does matter

On April 22 2015 14:15 hfglgg wrote:


luckily you are one of the very few who think this way in esports. nation cups are dead and for good reason, no one bar a few nationalistic rednecks really cares for the players passport. when teams can choose their players freely they should choose their region freely as well, everything else would be very wcg'esque and that shit lost importance really quickly once esport professionalized itself.

contribution to and identification with a scene matters, everything else is of no importance. no one should ever care where someone is from.

On April 22 2015 17:24 hfglgg wrote:
because thats what your argument comes down to. you want players to be treated differently depending on where they are from and in the best case want them to stay where they are born. an extremely nationalistic view.

you keep repeating over and over again that TT is obviously an EU team which they are simply not. since wayto joined they played exclusively in NA events, they were 3 NA players at that time too (+ qoqjva who is at least as much an NA player as an EU player. he played in both scenes about the same amount of time). they played (and failed) TS3 NA qualifiers in february, two weeks before black and pld joined them. how can they be an EU team at that point? oh right, they are not truely NA blooded, i forgot...

On April 23 2015 02:59 WolfintheSheep wrote:

Nationality matters because if 5 SEA players said "we want to go home and play there", there is literally no way to tell them "fuck that, you've been in China for a year, you extend your visas and you stay there". You're being obtuse if you think there's no difference in the situations.

there are only two logical conclusions possible.
a) TT is eligible for an NA qualifier spot, because they have been invested enough in the NA scene (SL12, TS3, iLeague 3)
b) TT is not eligible for an NA qualifier spot, because they have not been invested enough in the NA scene.

On April 22 2015 21:12 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
EG, Secret, iG, VG, LGD, Cloud9, MY, Empire.

Everyone else should qualify imo. I will be so pissed if Newbee gets an invite with xiao8 and Hao off-board, for example. And no fucking way TT should be NA, that's a waste of slot, and actually their three star-players are all EU.