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On April 22 2015 08:17 fixed_point wrote:Show nested quote +
Your example of 5 SEA players is also irrelevant, because they're 5 SEA players. Even if they'd been playing in China for 8 months, and only returned to SEA in March or something, I would still put them in the SEA qualifiers. Player nationality should count for the most, and the exceptions like LGD.int and Zephyr being made because they've committed to other regions.
Didn't we just agree a few posts ago player national doesn't matter that much?!. Show nested quote + Citizenship clearly isn't the dividing line, and I don't think it should be. You need to stop flip flopping on your arguments.
No, I think nationality does matter, and I think where you play from does matter, and I think the server that causes the least trouble matters. But the point is there aren't clear written rules or dividing lines on any of it. And there hasn't had to be, because the obvious answer has always been the easiest one to use.
A team of 5 SEA players is obviously a SEA team. An international team living in Korea or China is still an international team, but playing from a different region.
And Team Tinker is quite obviously a mostly EU team (like C9 was), trying to be NA at the last minute.
And the position from Valve should have absolutely nothing to do with if Black is "technically" a Chinese player, or if Qojqva is an NA player because he was on Liquid, or if PLD is "half NA" because he was on an international team. There is no magic metric, no percentages for playtime on X server, no weighting for being on an NA team one year and an EU team the next. It's a far simpler question with a very binary answer: Do you let teams pick and choose their region right before invite deadlines?
If yes, you put Tinker in NA, and open up all kinds of regional messes next year.
If no, you put Tinker in the region they're trying to avoid.
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Or you just ignore them for causing such a hassle in the first place. There should be no ambiguity about which region a team should play in.
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On April 22 2015 10:05 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 08:17 fixed_point wrote:
Your example of 5 SEA players is also irrelevant, because they're 5 SEA players. Even if they'd been playing in China for 8 months, and only returned to SEA in March or something, I would still put them in the SEA qualifiers. Player nationality should count for the most, and the exceptions like LGD.int and Zephyr being made because they've committed to other regions.
Didn't we just agree a few posts ago player national doesn't matter that much?!. Citizenship clearly isn't the dividing line, and I don't think it should be. You need to stop flip flopping on your arguments. No, I think nationality does matter
luckily you are one of the very few who think this way in esports. nation cups are dead and for good reason, no one bar a few nationalistic rednecks really cares for the players passport. when teams can choose their players freely they should choose their region freely as well, everything else would be very wcg'esque and that shit lost importance really quickly once esport professionalized itself.
contribution to and identification with a scene matters, everything else is of no importance. no one should ever care where someone is from.
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On April 22 2015 14:15 hfglgg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 10:05 WolfintheSheep wrote:On April 22 2015 08:17 fixed_point wrote:
Your example of 5 SEA players is also irrelevant, because they're 5 SEA players. Even if they'd been playing in China for 8 months, and only returned to SEA in March or something, I would still put them in the SEA qualifiers. Player nationality should count for the most, and the exceptions like LGD.int and Zephyr being made because they've committed to other regions.
Didn't we just agree a few posts ago player national doesn't matter that much?!. Citizenship clearly isn't the dividing line, and I don't think it should be. You need to stop flip flopping on your arguments. No, I think nationality does matter luckily you are one of the very few who think this way in esports. nation cups are dead and for good reason, no one bar a few nationalistic rednecks really cares for the players passport. when teams can choose their players freely they should choose their region freely as well, everything else would be very wcg'esque and that shit lost importance really quickly once esport professionalized itself. contribution to and identification with a scene matters, everything else is of no importance. no one should ever care where someone is from.
Cool, you quoted 6 words out of ~100. Did your browser cut off the rest of it?
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because thats what your argument comes down to. you want players to be treated differently depending on where they are from and in the best case want them to stay where they are born. an extremely nationalistic view.
you keep repeating over and over again that TT is obviously an EU team which they are simply not. since wayto joined they played exclusively in NA events, they were 3 NA players at that time too (+ qoqjva who is at least as much an NA player as an EU player. he played in both scenes about the same amount of time). they played (and failed) TS3 NA qualifiers in february, two weeks before black and pld joined them. how can they be an EU team at that point? oh right, they are not truely NA blooded, i forgot...
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EG, Secret, iG, VG, LGD, Cloud9, MY, Empire.
Everyone else should qualify imo. I will be so pissed if Newbee gets an invite with xiao8 and Hao off-board, for example. And no fucking way TT should be NA, that's a waste of slot, and actually their three star-players are all EU.
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>bulbas not a star player
>qojqva hasn't been playing NA scene with him all of last year and most of this
>Black^ played in china, regionally has no more connection with EU than any other player.
I'm done with this thread
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On April 22 2015 17:24 hfglgg wrote:
because thats what your argument comes down to. you want players to be treated differently depending on where they are from and in the best case want them to stay where they are born. an extremely nationalistic view.
you keep repeating over and over again that TT is obviously an EU team which they are simply not. since wayto joined they played exclusively in NA events, they were 3 NA players at that time too (+ qoqjva who is at least as much an NA player as an EU player. he played in both scenes about the same amount of time). they played (and failed) TS3 NA qualifiers in february, two weeks before black and pld joined them. how can they be an EU team at that point? oh right, they are not truely NA blooded, i forgot...
Nationality matters because if 5 SEA players said "we want to go home and play there", there is literally no way to tell them "fuck that, you've been in China for a year, you extend your visas and you stay there". You're being obtuse if you think there's no difference in the situations.
TT is obviously an EU team because if it wasn't for 2 players specifically getting work visas to be in Canada, they would be playing EU servers under every tournament rule. Your arguments are not that TT aren't trying to game the system, it's all excuses for why they should be allowed to. And the position for Valve, an organization that has absolutely put their foot down on roster and player shenanigans when it comes to TI, is entirely about if they should allow teams to game the system or not.
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On April 23 2015 02:59 WolfintheSheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2015 17:24 hfglgg wrote:
because thats what your argument comes down to. you want players to be treated differently depending on where they are from and in the best case want them to stay where they are born. an extremely nationalistic view.
you keep repeating over and over again that TT is obviously an EU team which they are simply not. since wayto joined they played exclusively in NA events, they were 3 NA players at that time too (+ qoqjva who is at least as much an NA player as an EU player. he played in both scenes about the same amount of time). they played (and failed) TS3 NA qualifiers in february, two weeks before black and pld joined them. how can they be an EU team at that point? oh right, they are not truely NA blooded, i forgot...
Nationality matters because if 5 SEA players said "we want to go home and play there", there is literally no way to tell them "fuck that, you've been in China for a year, you extend your visas and you stay there". You're being obtuse if you think there's no difference in the situations.
of course you can tell 5 sea players that they are not going to get invited to the TI qualifiers because they havent done anything in the SEA scene.
oh and for comparison, thats how it works in professional sports. i present to you the english football champion of 2014
http://www.transfermarkt.de/manchester-city/kader/verein/281/saison_id/2014/plus/1
they have a total of 4 english players, 4 out of 23.
and for esports, tsm, the most iconic north american lol team.
http://lol.gamepedia.com/Team_SoloMid?cookieSetup=true
only 2/5 players are from NA, but they are obviously an NA team. maybe not for you, but for everyone else.
i have the feeling you have no clue what professional sports is about (hint: its not about your passport)
the more professional a sport gets, the more borders and nationality lose their meaning. you should better get used to it because we will see more of it in the future and it will be awesome as NA will cease to be a trash region with only one good team.
if they should get a qualifier spot or not comes down to:
there are only two logical conclusions possible.
a) TT is eligible for an NA qualifier spot, because they have been invested enough in the NA scene (SL12, TS3, iLeague 3)
b) TT is not eligible for an NA qualifier spot, because they have not been invested enough in the NA scene.
thats the only thing that should matter to any decent human being, everything else is nationalistic garbage that we should not support in esports at all.
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On April 22 2015 21:12 ForTehDarkseid wrote:
EG, Secret, iG, VG, LGD, Cloud9, MY, Empire.
Everyone else should qualify imo. I will be so pissed if Newbee gets an invite with xiao8 and Hao off-board, for example. And no fucking way TT should be NA, that's a waste of slot, and actually their three star-players are all EU.
A wasted slot in what sense? Let's say EG is invited and TT doesn't count, what does that leave America with? Not Today? Complexity? NAR v2? It's kind of a screwed division. If you put TT in Europe, it probably just means TT won't qualify and some crappy American team worse than TT will.
I guess it depends on whether or not you are putting priority on regional representation or maximizing the quality of the teams.
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My prediction on TI5 invites
Direct Invites
NA - EG
EUROPE - Secret , Cloud 9
CIS - Empire
China - Vici , IG , LGD
SEA - MY
Former champion invite - Newbee
Wildcard Invite Fan favorite invite (valve economy invite , this is the new criteria, LOLs ) - Navi , Alliance
1EG : the Obvious choice in NA slot invite. (The other one is Team tinker , technically they are in NA qualifiers)
2Secret : self explanatory (although they haven't won a premier tournaments just a couple of podium finish)
3Cloud 9 : maybe the second best European(?) Next to secret, just some podium finish on premier tournaments are fine
4Empire : the most dominant team from CIS deserve a invite(Separated the europe and cis, latest premier tournaments victories include , Starladder and MLG
5Vici : Probably the best team in china right now and pretty much self explanatory why they must get a invite
6IG : the second best team in china right now (I think ) although they lack of podium finish in premier tournaments this year.
7.LGD : you could argue that LGD is the second best team if not IG. and hey its Xiao8 & sylar ,team(both are from newbee and vici ti4 1st and 2nd)
8MY - it would be unfair to rave , Rave has been a dominant force in the sea region post Titan/OLD team malaysia era. until Ehome.My became MY . more complications go with Rave us they battled this Team MY in a not so good situations.(rave visa issues , played in the philippines for the qualifiers Red bull , ESL) you could argue. Rave deserve it more, but currently MY is a dominant force (they upset team Secret at starladder) I guess that deserves a invite  . also remember Titan(finish ahead of Newbee , LGD , Alliance , Empire . and had the same record with Navi and C9) . Those who say SEA doesn't deserve a invite(sorry iceiceice) might be wrong , but its iceiceice and he's one the best player in the world.
9Newbee with their current form they dont deserve a invite , but they should be invite in order to defend their crown.(perks of being a champion)
Well the next two teams are doesn't deserve a invite if you based it on previous tournaments , But this two team are some of the most popular team in the dota community like the Real Madrid , Barcelona , Bayern Munich of football) or the boston celtics and los angeles lakers of basketball) , economically wise this two teams should be invited due to popular demand and huge(?) following. Remember this two could and will also contribute to the Ti5 price pool.
10Navi - shaky performance from previous tournaments . They had been the flagship team of the west against dominant china before.
11Alliance - they are quite back with their groove , but their previous performances are forgettable . besides Navi (CIS) , EG(American) , IG(China) . I think Alliance is the original Europe's team.
12. 12 teams direct invite? I don’t think so , but valve good pull some surprise with its invites this year.. If navi , alliance , newbee will be invited. I’m sure one of this teams deserve a ti5 invite too . I would call this one a wild card invite for valve. they will just randomly pick a team from a random region (LOLs.
Rave (a dominant force a SEA region until some visa issues that forced them to withdraw starladder qualifier and missed MLG , and also missed a chance to qualify at Redbull , ESL One. due to another visa related problems). One could argue that their finish at DAC is just a fluke , but hey also qualified at the Summit 3 and MLG lan.
NIP has been emerging team in europe in post ti4 reshuffle , they performed decently in premier lans
Hellraiser - exciting CIS team.
VirtusAsus.ProLar - well i kinda messed up that VP.Pro and Asus.Polar have been racking up good results early on until they disband and fused into 1 team.
team tinker- the most deserving the from five to get a invite
I also hope that teams should be registered into a certain region before they can compete in online tournaments. So no big teams are playing in weaker regions just for qualifiers.
13.NA -
14.EUROPE -
15.China -
16.CIS -
17.SEA -
18.SA or global wild card qualifiers -
I separated the CIS region from Europe.
18 teams is too much I think , but it would be good economically if valve wanted to reach other regions such South America((which still participate in NA ) , Korea , where gamer are much revered as footballers in europe (which still participate in SEA) , or even middle east and india.
How about 18 team the international ? it’s a bit too much teams. But hey Valve expanded its regional reach. Ti1 has 16 teams, ti2 and 3 had 8 teams. while ti4 has 16, I think if valved wanted to expand its reach economically they should have qualifiers from this regions. Technically Ti4 had 19 teams . only 16 made into the main event. 4 teams goes in playoff phase. (which team liquid qualified , and finish ahead of invited teams). Or have a playoff qualifiers of 4 teams again from non popular weaker regions. But SA dota is not weak as they compete with NA for years already I think they deserve a Ti5 regional qualifiers . instead of going to NA qualifiers , or where ever valve thinks there is market sustainability like Korea or South America.
That's why earlier I stated that each pro team should be affiliated to a certain region in order to compete in premier tournaments. Take note teams are not registered according to the nationality of players. It should be a organization based itself.. Reshuffles often happened so each time a team is formed they should be registered to certain region. I think valve or is there a” Fédération Internationale de Dota2 Association “(Yup I made up that one) should tried to do something about international team affiliation
For now
Tournament International is the best opportunity for valve to expand its reach in other regions. And also a valve sanctioned major event from different region before the the international is good. like or like a quarterly mini TI is good.
Note // Not navi or alliance or newbee fanboy. But economically wise this teams are good for the international . hell even singsing and bulldong should be in the international.
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with the compendium out now we can finally settle the team tinker issue and can all live in peace knowing that they are indeed an american team and nationality does not matter for valve.
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Agreed, Tinker is going to get invited to the NA qualifiers. The invites should be revealed by Valve mid week, I guess we'll hear about the qualifiers as well...
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EPT
