EPT(we need volunteers plz halp)
also we need GD back plz
This Site Sucks (rant) - Page 5
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konadora
Singapore66359 Posts
(we need volunteers plz halp) also we need GD back plz | ||
TheEmulator
28100 Posts
On November 20 2014 10:15 konadora wrote: i think it's also because generally people affiliate TL to teamliquid.net and not liquiddota.com lol but there is a point about lack of content creation because a lot of the writers are busy/raging at losing mmr (we need volunteers plz halp) also we need GD back plz tbh there are other more important things to sort out before they get more volunteers. The fact that I'm the only staff member bothering to respond to this blog (and I'm not even active atm), should be an indicator of ONE of the MAJOR issues we have right now (lack of someone in a leadership position who seems to care). Having more volunteers but no guidance isn't good either. edit: err, sorry Julmust replied here too. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On November 20 2014 09:54 TheEmulator wrote: The plan wasn't to have a lack of content and community involvement though. Obviously as is having it back on TL makes sense, but the original point was to grow LD's own community into something big one day. Why this hasn't happened has been talked about already in this thread. Can the site still grow? Of course, but it needs initiative from people who work here full-time and from any volunteers (current or new) that might even have as little as 1-2 hours a week to contribute. The "hands off and let the community grow itself" approach only really works when you're the only game in town. TL.net was basically the only English site for competitive SC:BW content, so growing the community was almost synonymous with growing TL.net. Same thing with LiquidHearth, for the most part. The problem with LiquidDota, as was said numerous times when the separation first happened, is that you were attempting to encroach in an already competitive environment. The community was already growing, and the community was already attached to other websites. If you want a chunk of an already existing market, you're going to have to force your way in and make people come to you. How you choose to do that is up to the organization as a whole, but "build it and they will come" does not apply when you're trying to forcibly drag a user base from one site into yours. | ||
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TheEmulator
28100 Posts
On November 20 2014 10:32 WolfintheSheep wrote: The "hands off and let the community grow itself" approach only really works when you're the only game in town. TL.net was basically the only English site for competitive SC:BW content, so growing the community was almost synonymous with growing TL.net. Same thing with LiquidHearth, for the most part. The problem with LiquidDota, as was said numerous times when the separation first happened, is that you were attempting to encroach in an already competitive environment. The community was already growing, and the community was already attached to other websites. If you want a chunk of an already existing market, you're going to have to force your way in and make people come to you. How you choose to do that is up to the organization as a whole, but "build it and they will come" does not apply when you're trying to forcibly drag a user base from one site into yours. I think you may have misread my post? I don't think I've ever said we had a "build it and they will come " approach. I literally just said in the post you quoted "The plan wasn't to have a lack of content and community involvement". | ||
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Fleetfeet
Canada2689 Posts
I also disagree that a "build it and they will come" approach wouldn't work. There isn't really a singular "You go here for Dota content" site that's way better than any other, and LD has a better atmosphere than most as far as I'm concerned. What someone said earlier in the thread about Dota being a hard-as-fuck game to generate content for rings true, because not only is one 5v5 lineup vastly different than another 5v5 lineup, but also 5v5 at 3k mmr is extremely different than at 5k mmr is extremely different than pro. It isn't like Sc2 or Hearthstone where you can isolate strategic variables and talk about them, or have them be relevant at all levels or to a specific audience. You almost HAVE TO take a Day9 approach and review it on a game-by-game basis, but that amount of work merits creating your own brand, not just bolstering the Liquid one. But yeah, I don't really think it's that bad. We've got content producers / guide writers / discussion stimulators and generally the content is smarter and less furious than most people you'll run into in casual pubs, so I'm okay with it. If I have fonder feelings for the site than I do the actual game, then it's probably not doing that bad. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On November 20 2014 11:18 TheEmulator wrote: I think you may have misread my post? I don't think I've ever said we had a "build it and they will come " approach. I literally just said in the post you quoted "The plan wasn't to have a lack of content and community involvement". Except it sounds very much like you were "planning" to have staff to be more passionate about DotA, and for the community to have more initiative to create content. That's not a plan, that's literally just building the site and hoping other people make it grow. Obviously this site as a whole is very much built on volunteers and people doing stuff just because they care (as konadora's blog rant shows quite well), but when people are doing all their DotA 2 "volunteering" on other websites, I don't really see any concerted attempts to draw those passionate people to this one. On November 20 2014 11:28 Fleetfeet wrote: It really isn't that bad, I don't think. LiquidHearth seems pretty fucking dead if you're expecting a bunch of shit to have happened in the 24 hours since you read it last, and its really not that different from my LiquidDota experience, except the content on LH seems to be more positive in general, for whatever reason. I also disagree that a "build it and they will come" approach wouldn't work. There isn't really a singular "You go here for Dota content" site that's way better than any other, and LD has a better atmosphere than most as far as I'm concerned. What someone said earlier in the thread about Dota being a hard-as-fuck game to generate content for rings true, because not only is one 5v5 lineup vastly different than another 5v5 lineup, but also 5v5 at 3k mmr is extremely different than at 5k mmr is extremely different than pro. It isn't like Sc2 or Hearthstone where you can isolate strategic variables and talk about them, or have them be relevant at all levels or to a specific audience. You almost HAVE TO take a Day9 approach and review it on a game-by-game basis, but that amount of work merits creating your own brand, not just bolstering the Liquid one. But yeah, I don't really think it's that bad. We've got content producers / guide writers / discussion stimulators and generally the content is smarter and less furious than most people you'll run into in casual pubs, so I'm okay with it. If I have fonder feelings for the site than I do the actual game, then it's probably not doing that bad. 8 (?) months of this site existing, basically no growth in the active user numbers. I'd say that's a good sign that the current LiquidDota approach isn't drawing anyone new in. Of course, maybe the active user number isn't an accurate representation. | ||
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icystorage
Jollibee19350 Posts
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TheEmulator
28100 Posts
On November 20 2014 12:00 WolfintheSheep wrote: Except it sounds very much like you were "planning" to have staff to be more passionate about DotA, and for the community to have more initiative to create content. That's not a plan, that's literally just building the site and hoping other people make it grow. We never planned for the community to make any content at all, that is a perk of a well established community like TL's and we didn't expect that from the start of LD. I'm not sure what you aren't getting to be honest. I never said any of those things. LD staff was extremely passionate before and during the start of LD, and the plan was to create the site and try to create the best content out of any site out there. We did good for a while, but as we've discussed in this thread a ton of things have happened which has stalled that growth. Not at any point did I say we created this site and were like "oh well, let's see what happens"  Obviously this site as a whole is very much built on volunteers and people doing stuff just because they care (as konadora's blog rant shows quite well), but when people are doing all their DotA 2 "volunteering" on other websites, I don't really see any concerted attempts to draw those passionate people to this one. I mean, of course you haven't seen any attempts to draw people to contribute here. Because outside of the initial recruitment post I made when we started the site that hasn't happened at all. | ||
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Yergidy
United States2107 Posts
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Kirsed
9380 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + This post is drivel. | ||
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DucK-
Singapore11447 Posts
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
DOTA2 is a pretty godawful topic to write strategy guides on. No matter how good you are at writing it up, you've got to expect all your hard work to be invalidated one patch later. Oh, you want to write a section on how to deal with your build's counterpicks? Three months later you'll seem quaint at best and clueless at worst. It isn't the same way for SC2 or Hearthstone. The Blizzard balancing model has its flaws, but it does allow for a lot more stability. As a total scrub, you can take an old SC2 build or Hearthstone netdeck and expect it to perform decently well for you. Hell, for anyone trying to learn Protoss, I still start off teaching them the 4gate as a manageable introduction to the game, and that's been a joke for years. The closest thing we have to something eternal is that "Art of Support" thing. That was fairly solid, and it was solid because it deliberately avoided saying anything specific apart from pull times and the like. But let's be honest. It's almost never by means of learning grand notions of theory and practicing last-hitting ad nauseum that you get good at this game. It's by finding out little tricks to the game and drilling them into muscle memory that you improve. The only time I can remember seeing a glut of guides for this game was the DotA Allstars days, back on Pendragon's forums before he shut it down in favor of League. And guess what? Most of those guides were terrible! There was no community to speak of, there was no matchmaking, and chances are that outside of inhouse leagues you'd be playing with scrubs and leavers every game. So Merlini's guide to Zeus that taught a bunch of stuff that should be obvious (seriously, by modern standards it was pretty basic) was revelatory in that light. Hell, just reading that stupid-simple guide to Zeus got me to the point where he was my best hero. But those days are gone, because everyone can just subscribe to Torte's builds instead. There's no room for that kind of guide any longer, where the content is basically just skill build and item build with some extra words tossed in. For fairness, though, I will note that the old Warding guide was pretty damn excellent. So what do we have left? Basically, the tips and tricks. You can't write the kind of detailed guides that we expect out of, say, SC2 build orders for those. It's a totally different field, but it's still really important. Some of them are even impossible to describe. How do you actually know when you have potentially lethal damage, and when do you hold back and run? You can do the math, but generally on the spot you just have a sense for it, and that can't be taught. You might be expecting I have a proper answer for this, after typing it all out, but I don't. It's not an easy problem to solve, not in any way that will get a new audience showing up. Hell, I half expect I'm wrong about all of this, and the real problem is nobody giving a shit. Whatever. Game is hard. | ||
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Promethelax
Canada7089 Posts
On November 20 2014 12:18 TheEmulator wrote: We never planned for the community to make any content at all, that is a perk of a well established community like TL's and we didn't expect that from the start of LD. I'm not sure what you aren't getting to be honest. I never said any of those things. LD staff was extremely passionate before and during the start of LD, and the plan was to create the site and try to create the best content out of any site out there. We did good for a while, but as we've discussed in this thread a ton of things have happened which has stalled that growth. Not at any point did I say we created this site and were like "oh well, let's see what happens" I mean, of course you haven't seen any attempts to draw people to contribute here. Because outside of the initial recruitment post I made when we started the site that hasn't happened at all. As a user interested in seeing more content how can I, and others like me, help? | ||
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Velr
Switzerland10876 Posts
I never understood why closing GD was absolutely necessary. people had fun there. I wasn’t even a regular but occasionally just read a bit in it. Well… unnecessary seems to be a pretty good description of this site as a whole But the calendar is awsome | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
BROOKLYN RAGE | ||
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beef42
Denmark1037 Posts
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
On November 20 2014 18:42 Velr wrote: I never really understood the necessety of splitting away from TL. I never understood why closing GD was absolutely necessary. people had fun there. I wasn’t even a regular but occasionally just read a bit in it. Well… unnecessary seems to be a pretty good description of this site as a whole But the calendar is awsome You answered your own question lol | ||
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Steveling
Greece10806 Posts
After almost 5 years of using tl, the site I go to read news about doto is ggnet. Why? Cause ggnet is a doto site, it always has being and always will be. TL is just a foreigner to the doto cosmos, ggnet/garena forums/dota allstars forums were the spine of doto since the beginning. It also doesn't help that the quality difference of the articles between the 2 sites is like day and night. This last sentence isn't a dig at ld staff but a rational observation. Let me explain. During bw the greatest foreigner players were actively participating in tl, even writing articles and stuff. The site was relatively unknown to non bw enthusiasts so these high profile players enjoyed a tight knit community. Same happened in doto with every flavor of the year pro league. IHCS forums, DotaInvite etc were the place for pro players to talk about the game. So obviously, ld is suffering from a lack of quality since pro players will never contribute here without getting paid. Also there's no reason for them to do so anymore. During wc3 doto pro leagues were a necessity so pro players would have a matchmaking system. After doto2 arrived this necessity eclipsed. There's no forum for them to gather and share their knowledge and perhaps the most eloquent of them to write flamboyant articles, like the bw section's featured articles for example. tldr1: tl is not a doto brand tldr2: pro players dont participate in communities anymore, so content is rly abysmal in quality. solution: LD or any other site rly, could hire some old respected pro players to enrich the flavor. For example, merlini, slahser, drayich, vigoss etc. Im so awesome. | ||
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Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Separation is, as Steveling said, for branding 2. because its fucking easier to separate things 3. there's so much dota and hearthstone content that it literally makes a site unreadable for people who like all the games. Even if you don't like all the games, it's a still a massive bitch to keep everything under one forum and condense discussions into 5 topics and one subforum. For SC2 and Dota? It's doable, for SC2, Dota, Hearthstone and a bit of LoL and maybe Heroes of the Storm in the future and that tiny shred of Smash? Fucking nuts. Add in all that content on that tiny Featured News or Community News side-bar, the calendar chock full of crap I like and don't like. 4-5 different fucking filters for shit and a livestream side-bar that stretches longer than the Nile river and other crap. Separate this shit. | ||
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teddyoojo
Germany22369 Posts
TOO LONG COULDNT READ: trying to run a dota site the way u run a sc2 site was never going to work and im not sure how one would think it would | ||
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