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On May 23 2014 02:32 Fazers wrote:
TL.net was founded on Starcraft / Brood War, so it applies to SC2 as well I assume. It has expanded with DotA/Melee as well which I have no problems with, but one must never forget the site's roots.
I don't see what's wrong with having positive blog posts about SC2 or Brood War now and then, that would be perfectly acceptable for the long-time members who want to honour their roots in some way.
The wrong way to remember your roots is by bashing other games though - to be clear I don't mean to imply that you are saying this, this is mostly in response to the OP.
It doesn't matter if it was allowed in the past or not, its still wrong, because it doesn't do anything to elevate the discussion. It just brings people down into a flame war. If the only way that you can find therapeutic relief is to shout at others about how much you think their game sucks, I'm sorry but I think you have a problem with how you deal with your anger issues. I honestly feel like these people need to grow up and learn how to handle disappointing moments with a bit more maturity than yelling at other gamers about what they enjoy.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
d00p:
Naturally you are entitled to your own opinion, but I think you're somewhat overreacting. When I was made a banling, the biggest issue the moderation team faced was how to deal with the rampant negativity that plagued (and still somewhat does) the SC2 forums in general, both with the incredibly silly "ded gaem"-posts that seem to never end, and the toxic kind of posts that bash everything and everyone, be it a MOBA or a tournament organizer. I feel like overall posting quality has improved significantly over the last few months as that negativity has died down somewhat, but it still becomes an issue in retirement thread like Babyknight's.
While TL's primary focus in terms of coverage is now Starcraft, I don't feel that there is a logical reason for us to allow unmoderated bashing of other games and their players just so that Starcraft players can feel superior because their game is "harder". TL may have a Starcraft focus, but that should not mean actively allowing users to push everyone else off the site through unnecessary hostility. I've had the discussion about the misconception of MOBAs being inherently easier at all levels with a lot of people on TL, and the core of the issue seems to be that people think the lower barrier of entry, mechanically speaking, somehow makes the game inferior to SC. The general consensus on staff is, I think, that that is not the case. Many of us enjoy SC2, BW, Dota 2, LoL, CS, HS and any combination of these and other games.
Personally, I don't feel that TL should be a place where hostile elitists gather to pat each other on the back. You're free to enjoy SC and solely SC, and you're free to dislike MOBAs and even voice your dislike for those games, but we've seen over the course of 2-or-so years that the game vs. game flame wars that badly worded criticisms usually lead to are detrimental to the generally friendly atmosphere of TL. As such, any post that very clearly says "game X sucks, it's a game for kids that aren't good enough to play game Y", is going to be moderated in order to avoid unnecessary flame wars and greater amounts of moderation as a consequence. I understand that you're concerned with the perceived unfairness in moderation between the two groups of fans, and I also agree that I may have been somewhat harsh in the way I moderated the first few pages of Babyknight's retirement thread, but I also feel that this post
On May 22 2014 06:12 Metztli wrote:
Finally ! You could be on all internationals by now if you had not changed to this stupid Starcraft.You wasted so much time with that game.
is not as bad as
On May 22 2014 15:40 RandomPlayer wrote:
dota is such a terrible stupid game for kids...
User was warned for this post
For one, Metztli's post gives off a vibe of "You were really good at Dota, if this game hadn't gotten in the way you could have been at all Internationals" rather than "fuck Starcraft the game is so terrible". The difference is fairly subtle, but I most certainly feel that RandomPlayer's post is decidedly more hostile in that it is simply a bash, nothing else, which for me would have made the difference between warning and non-action.
Also please understand that moderation in these cases are very difficult and case-by-case, where posting history plays a role in equal measure. A lot of these posts are borderline and sometimes, as you say, somewhat warranted, which makes it difficult to moderate with any outwardly consistency. But trust me, we are not actively trying to alienate SC fans by being harsher on them.
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Thank you for your detailed and well thought out reply Zealously. I have to insist though, that it seemed as if Metztli basically registered to the site just to say SC2 is stupid. He had 2 or 3 posts if I recall correctly.
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Lalalaland34503 Posts
On May 23 2014 04:08 d00p wrote:
Thank you for your detailed and well thought out reply Zealously. I have to insist though, that it seemed as if Metztli basically registered to the site just to say SC2 is stupid. He had 2 or 3 posts if I recall correctly.
If he continues he'll get caught eventually anyway. 
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On May 23 2014 03:49 radscorpion9 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2014 02:32 Fazers wrote:
TL.net was founded on Starcraft / Brood War, so it applies to SC2 as well I assume. It has expanded with DotA/Melee as well which I have no problems with, but one must never forget the site's roots. I don't see what's wrong with having positive blog posts about SC2 or Brood War now and then, that would be perfectly acceptable for the long-time members who want to honour their roots in some way. The wrong way to remember your roots is by bashing other games though - to be clear I don't mean to imply that you are saying this, this is mostly in response to the OP. It doesn't matter if it was allowed in the past or not, its still wrong, because it doesn't do anything to elevate the discussion. It just brings people down into a flame war. If the only way that you can find therapeutic relief is to shout at others about how much you think their game sucks, I'm sorry but I think you have a problem with how you deal with your anger issues. I honestly feel like these people need to grow up and learn how to handle disappointing moments with a bit more maturity than yelling at other gamers about what they enjoy.
well, I was saying that since TL was based on Starcraft, that the same applies to SC2 as well. After all, the primary focus is SC! Not bashing by any means, it's just how I've always viewed the site. 
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On May 23 2014 04:41 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2014 04:08 d00p wrote:
Thank you for your detailed and well thought out reply Zealously. I have to insist though, that it seemed as if Metztli basically registered to the site just to say SC2 is stupid. He had 2 or 3 posts if I recall correctly. If he continues he'll get caught eventually anyway.
In TL moderation I trust. I mean that quite seriously. They don't get every post, but they are damn good when one pops up.
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Canada11512 Posts
It's funny that this comes in the wake of opening up TL Dota 2. If anything, we're giving space for Dota 2 to grow while at the same time making TL MORE SC2 and SC centric.
Disallowing negative talk on other games doesn't mean that SC2 is no longer at home in TL. For the simple reason that being against something is not the same thing as being for something. You can be against Mobas, FPS, SimCity... heck, card games, soccer, and rubics cubes. Because screw rubics cubes*
But that doesn't make you any more for SC2. It's nothing. If you are into SC2, be into SC2. But the ability to express hate on another game has nothing to do with it.
*I actually like rubics cubes.
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On May 23 2014 00:00 d00p wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 23:48 Capped wrote:
I dont like X game so i'm going to bash it and people who play it. No, bashing the people is not cool. Bashing the game, on the other hand, should totally be allowed, though there are other forum rules like flame bating etc that mix into it so it's not always that clear cut.
Brood War vets would like to have a word with you.
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Consider the following three statements:
Dota2 is terrible
SC2 is terrible
C&C4 is terrible
The first is a horrible statement that should lead to a warning. The second is not quite as bad, but still worth a warning. The third is fine, and noone will bat an eye for it... why?
By stating that X is terrible, you implicitely agree with any and all critique directed at that thing (in the context it is said). C&C4 has had very little unjustified critique, and most of the bashing is generally agreed on.
The other two have gotten a lot of stupid flak, from multiple sides. LoL and Dota2 have however gotten much more stupid banter their way - so making sweeping statements against those games are much worse.
On the flipside, SC2 have gotten much more valid critique than Dota2 - mostly because people tend to attack the wrong things about the ladder game.
In short, by bashing a game with no further context or explanation, you agree with both the valid and stupid critiques directed at that game. The more the usual critiques are of the stupid kind, the more stupid you look.
Also - C&C4 is a terrible game.
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On May 23 2014 16:05 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
Consider the following three statements:
Dota2 is terrible
SC2 is terrible
C&C4 is terrible
The first is a horrible statement that should lead to a warning. The second is not quite as bad, but still worth a warning. The third is fine, and noone will bat an eye for it... why?
By stating that X is terrible, you implicitely agree with any and all critique directed at that thing (in the context it is said). C&C4 has had very little unjustified critique, and most of the bashing is generally agreed on.
The other two have gotten a lot of stupid flak, from multiple sides. LoL and Dota2 have however gotten much more stupid banter their way - so making sweeping statements against those games are much worse.
On the flipside, SC2 have gotten much more valid critique than Dota2 - mostly because people tend to attack the wrong things about the ladder game.
In short, by bashing a game with no further context or explanation, you agree with both the valid and stupid critiques directed at that game. The more the usual critiques are of the stupid kind, the more stupid you look.
Also - C&C4 is a terrible game.
The most important part is the tiny sentence in brackets: In the context it is being said.
If there is no obvious context, a statement has to be a statement for itself.
If there is no context, each of those statements is equally bad.
Also the part about what critique is valid and what is not is very arbitrary. A lot of critique directed towards SC2 ultimately stems from it not being Broodwar and those statements quality gets measured with the norms that Broodwar introduced. You could do the exact same thing vis verca.
Meanwhile - in my arbitrary eyes - DotA2 isn't even a game worth noting, because it hasn't done anything noteworthy. DotA was amazing, DotA2 doesn't deserve any credit from a pure gamedesign perspective. It is one of the worst clone attempts in the history of PC games.
This last statement serves first and foremost the purpose of showing why I believe it is important that you have explanations with anything that uses phrases like "worst clone attempts", "terrible game" etc. Because now if that were a discussion about DotA2 , you may not agree with me, but you would be capable of grasping the standards why someone would think that DotA2 is a really bad game. Similarily to how some doesn't agree with SC2's economy system using the arbitrary norm of Broodwar economy, I have used the arbitrary norm of a game needing to feature something new to be good.
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As someone who tried to get the MOBA hype and couldn't understand how people enjoy watching it for the life of me. I completely get your feelings, but it seems as Zealously pointed out, that the modding is not sc2 specific, they try too keep the forums mature.
However, I do feel it's a bit excessive, I got a warning once for a sarcastic remark when saying "yes, but why aren't there any progamers playing" when an only NA tournament's playerlist was announced right after a GSL final, maybe it wasn't the nicest thing to say, but I doubt I would've gotten a warning at any other site. If TL was a country it wouldn't be a democracy lol
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Fully agree on the context part - my main argument was that there is always a hidden context:
The sum of previous discussions about the subject.
Another example:
Savior is a terrible person...
While this statement is objectively horrible - No person should ever be villanized like this - it is somewhat understandable given the context of previous discussions and news on TL.
No statement is ever without context - and this should be remembered when we consider whether it is said with toxic intent. If you don't want your post to be judged solely on the background of the average TL user, you need to provide your own context.
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On May 23 2014 16:57 Big J wrote:
It is one of the worst clone attempts in the history of PC games.
Damn thats harsh, you sure you can't think of a worse clone? D:
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On May 23 2014 16:05 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
Consider the following three statements:
Dota2 is terrible
SC2 is terrible
C&C4 is terrible
The first is a horrible statement that should lead to a warning. The second is not quite as bad, but still worth a warning. The third is fine, and noone will bat an eye for it... why?
By stating that X is terrible, you implicitely agree with any and all critique directed at that thing (in the context it is said). C&C4 has had very little unjustified critique, and most of the bashing is generally agreed on.
The other two have gotten a lot of stupid flak, from multiple sides. LoL and Dota2 have however gotten much more stupid banter their way - so making sweeping statements against those games are much worse.
On the flipside, SC2 have gotten much more valid critique than Dota2 - mostly because people tend to attack the wrong things about the ladder game.
In short, by bashing a game with no further context or explanation, you agree with both the valid and stupid critiques directed at that game. The more the usual critiques are of the stupid kind, the more stupid you look.
Also - C&C4 is a terrible game.
The third is fine because it's obviously THE UNDENIABLE TRUTH.
Seriously the way that franchise has gone makes D2 -> D3 look like the success story of the century 
The first C&C games were so cool
On topic; I think the moment you type out the words "bashing" and "should be allowed" and read them, should be the moment when you hit the "back" button on your browser. (Not that some bashing isn't fine with me, but everyone should be aware that it's not proper, polite behavior.)
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tbh, I don't think that player bashing nor game bashing is appropriate under any circumstances here (personal opinion). While I understand that people do have opinions about things, if you cannot present them in a constructive manner I don't really see the point of saying it anything at all (reminded of that old adage, if you don't have anything nice to say...). What it comes down to largely here on TL is, if we're really trying to foster a 'tight knit' or 'nurturing' community - and I'd hope we are - this kind of vitriolic and deliberately sensationalist behavior isn't really constructive, or encouraging.
On May 23 2014 17:09 Nirel wrote:
As someone who tried to get the MOBA hype and couldn't understand how people enjoy watching it for the life of me. I completely get your feelings, but it seems as Zealously pointed out, that the modding is not sc2 specific, they try too keep the forums mature.
However, I do feel it's a bit excessive, I got a warning once for a sarcastic remark when saying "yes, but why aren't there any progamers playing" when an only NA tournament's playerlist was announced right after a GSL final, maybe it wasn't the nicest thing to say, but I doubt I would've gotten a warning at any other site. If TL was a country it wouldn't be a democracy lol Taking your post at face value, I think the warning is valid. Because of the nature of the internet we can't really tell that your being sarcastic, and it does - at face value - look like a deliberately derogatory post. It's very hard to read peoples intentions through their writing only when you have little to no experience with them. I can only name a handful of posters on TL where I am actually able to read their intentions relatively well, though generally it's quite difficult without auditory or visual cues.
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All of RTS is just a rip-off of Dune.
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On May 23 2014 23:20 ninazerg wrote:
All of RTS is just a rip-off of Dune.
Now THAT game required mechanics.
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On May 23 2014 23:20 ninazerg wrote:
All of RTS is just a rip-off of Dune.
Dune II. It's not like I expected someone who plays a casual point-and-click game like BW to know her shit.
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On May 23 2014 17:09 Nirel wrote:
If TL was a country it wouldn't be a democracy lol
lol i don' t agree with this statement: first of all you got a warning not a ban. Then people forget that this website is privatly owned and no-one owns anybody anything. Still, it is VERY democratic. you can see and read every post that still gets a warning. You can post anywhere at any time. The only things that are asked in return is respect, and common sense. And that is true of real life as well.
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Even the saltiest BW vet would worship SC2 as a golden standard of sequels when it's compared to C&C4. Why did you have to remind it exists.
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EPT
