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On May 22 2014 15:14 NovemberstOrm wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 13:57 d00p wrote:On May 22 2014 06:12 Metztli wrote:
Finally ! You could be on all internationals by now if you had not changed to this stupid Starcraft.You wasted so much time with that game. It's nice to see that on an SC2 site this doesn't get a ban or a warning but if someone says anything negative about dota they get warned instantly. Like that guy who said it's an easier game. It is. Deal with it. Maybe it really is dead gaem, but Babyknight leaving has nothing to do with it. This leaves Denmark pretty much screwed in the nordic power rank. If you have moderation issues, take it to website feedback please.
It's not a personal moderation issue of mine, so no I won't (and I wouldn't know where to post it either). So I'll blog this. This was more like a general statement on something that has been bothering me for a while. It really feels like some of the moderators should have jumped on the dota hypetrain out of here a long time ago. There is this site called liquiddota.
I think that some light MOBA bashing should be allowed on TL now that this site is once again Starcraft only. Dota is just so incredibly annoying! I can't help it. The people involved are so obnoxiously positive (about dota, not about other games) and TL grants them this aura of invulnerability, and even let's them talk trash about SC2. It's completely natural that SC2 fans feel the need to went when a prominent figure switches to a MOBA, but instant warnings and even bans ensue. I know it doesn't help our scene and it's juvenile but it's therapeutic, okay? Why wouldn't it be allowed on a Starcraft site? It almost feels like SC fans aren't welcome on TL anymore and it saddens me a bit for some reason, though I'm not 'involved' in any shape or form.
The moderators were very understanding towards the BW crowd in 2010-2011. The same should apply to SC2 now that it's dead gaem. For like 2 years now, yet somehow there are tons of good games going on constatly.
TL;DR: This is an SC site and we should be allowed to say nasty shit about mobas. This is still an SC site, isn't it?
I know this will get flak but I'm ok with that. Anyone feel the same?
 
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I dont like X game so i'm going to bash it and people who play it.
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On May 22 2014 23:48 Capped wrote:
I dont like X game so i'm going to bash it and people who play it.
No, bashing the people is not cool. Bashing the game, on the other hand, should totally be allowed, though there are other forum rules like flame bating etc that mix into it so it's not always that clear cut.
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Bashing games is the same as bashing people - a subjective opinion that does not contribute anything to development of an intellectual discussion. So many people have spoken to no end about what is the better game, yada yada, when you literally CANNOT compare games like SC2 and MOBAs, since they are completely DIFFERENT genres of games. Both require different types of skill and strategy, one revolving on strong mechanics, structured strategies and decisionmaking, and the other relying on teamwork, positioning and planning.
As you may or may not know, TL has different sites for different games now to clean up the different sections of TL and giving everyone their own haven. Just because it is an SC site doesn't mean it is a site that should be advocating and allowing unnecessary and immature flaming of different games that people who play SC might also play.
Grow up, plz.
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Because BW people bashing SC2 actually had a fair point and those two games are also related. SC2 people bashing MOBAs out of salt just looks silly.
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"bashing" is plain out wrong. Its not what you say but how you say it. If i say I don' t like sc2 cause its graphics, the way units move, the sounds, the loading time, the units, and i would not play it even if you paid me, its different from saying lol what a noob game for losers;
Bashing is moving out of rage or isteria, a well reasoned argument is moved by what you actually feel on a simple level playing or watching the game. On tl everyone is entitled to an opinion like the real world, but if you talk in a civil way
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I think that's an entirely juvenile concept and born out of being defensive over your own nest-egg when you perceive the other to be a threat.
There is a total amount of zero legitimate reasons to bash any game you so happen to dislike.
League suffers the most backlash and is a perfectly good example, why is it attacked so much? "Its childish" "Its shit" "Takes no skill" "Worse then dota". The reality is League swept in and snapped up the moba market which just so happened to become explosively popular because of the social/team aspect and become #1 in money/viewers/whatever. People immediately jumped on the defensive because it posed a threat to their own gaming communities. SC2 was used to being the biggest, Dota was used to being THE moba, etc etc. If dota2 had been where league was at the time, it would no doubt be the bigger of the two right now, the only thing league has over dota in terms of "advantage" is it is more beginner friendly other then that the two games are just different.
Same shit happens all the time, SC2 / BW, SC2 / Mobas, LoL/Dota. Its all juvenile defensiveness.
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It's pointless and boring and leads to long threads that are pointless and boring. How can you even compare games of two different genres in such a way?
It was also moderated with SC2 and Brood War, but you may not have thought so because either : some posts weren't found by moderators in huge dumb threads or the comparisons were made in such a way that there was something constructive or insightful about them.
You really have to argue the value of DOTA bashing to convince anyone, I think. To argue that, I don't think you can point to other valueless things that are allowed. There was a time on ye olde TL when Protoss bashing was the hot thing and people would make lots of Protoss is easy jokes. Then it got really tired and boring and it started getting moderated. I suspect moderation of DOTA bashing has been provoked by a similar feeling.
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IMO lets just enjoy what we enjoy, and let others enjoy what they do. For me "dead game" or not. I don't care, I play, watch, and enjoy playing SC2 a lot and that's enough. Not to be stupid but I tried LoL and didn't really understand the hype and didn't enjoy so I simply stopped playing it.
The End 
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On May 23 2014 00:10 vult wrote:
Bashing games is the same as bashing people - a subjective opinion that does not contribute anything to development of an intellectual discussion. So many people have spoken to no end about what is the better game, yada yada, when you literally CANNOT compare games like SC2 and MOBAs, since they are completely DIFFERENT genres of games. Both require different types of skill and strategy, one revolving on strong mechanics, structured strategies and decisionmaking, and the other relying on teamwork, positioning and planning.
As you may or may not know, TL has different sites for different games now to clean up the different sections of TL and giving everyone their own haven. Just because it is an SC site doesn't mean it is a site that should be advocating and allowing unnecessary and immature flaming of different games that people who play SC might also play.
Grow up, plz.
I didn't say there is any point to it. But there shouldn't there still be, you know, freedom of speech? And why does dota get special treatment? Also, bashing games is not at all the same as bashing people. Intellectual discussion on an internet message board? Your answer was like an epitome of why that's an impossible demand. You basically disregarded everything I said and just went on a rant.
I think the root of the problem is that peolpe take their respective games way too seriously and immediately get super emotional. People saying bad things about a game you like means NOTHING. Just take it as it is: venting.
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On May 23 2014 00:23 iLLuzion1st wrote:IMO lets just enjoy what we enjoy, and let others enjoy what they do. For me "dead game" or not. I don't care, I play, watch, and enjoy playing SC2 a lot and that's enough. Not to be stupid but I tried LoL and didn't really understand the hype and didn't enjoy so I simply stopped playing it. The End
This guys got it down.
Also, you dont have freedom of speech on TL, go and read the ten commandments again. You talk about bias? Check out how anti-LoL TL is. Nothing anyone can do about it, their house.
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On May 23 2014 00:26 d00p wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2014 00:10 vult wrote:
Bashing games is the same as bashing people - a subjective opinion that does not contribute anything to development of an intellectual discussion. So many people have spoken to no end about what is the better game, yada yada, when you literally CANNOT compare games like SC2 and MOBAs, since they are completely DIFFERENT genres of games. Both require different types of skill and strategy, one revolving on strong mechanics, structured strategies and decisionmaking, and the other relying on teamwork, positioning and planning.
As you may or may not know, TL has different sites for different games now to clean up the different sections of TL and giving everyone their own haven. Just because it is an SC site doesn't mean it is a site that should be advocating and allowing unnecessary and immature flaming of different games that people who play SC might also play.
Grow up, plz. I didn't say there is any point to it. But there shouldn't there still be, you know, freedom of speech? And why does dota get special treatment? Also, bashing games is not at all the same as bashing people. Intellectual discussion on an internet message board? Your answer was like an epitome of why that's an impossible demand. You basically disregarded everything I said and just went on a rant. I think the root of the problem is that peolpe take their respective games way too seriously and immediately get super emotional. People saying bad things about a game you like means NOTHING. Just take it as it is: venting.
I don't know, people are really passionate about League or dota2, so they will might get offended if you bash it. It's eSports, where one of the basic principles is that people take the game more seriously than your average guy does.
And I think if your goal was to get "intellectual discussion" then you took the fundamentally wrong approach by wanting "bashing" to be allowed in the first place. It might just be the terminology, but bashing kind of implies the opposite of a well-rounded discussion.
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On May 23 2014 00:26 d00p wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2014 00:10 vult wrote:
Bashing games is the same as bashing people - a subjective opinion that does not contribute anything to development of an intellectual discussion. So many people have spoken to no end about what is the better game, yada yada, when you literally CANNOT compare games like SC2 and MOBAs, since they are completely DIFFERENT genres of games. Both require different types of skill and strategy, one revolving on strong mechanics, structured strategies and decisionmaking, and the other relying on teamwork, positioning and planning.
As you may or may not know, TL has different sites for different games now to clean up the different sections of TL and giving everyone their own haven. Just because it is an SC site doesn't mean it is a site that should be advocating and allowing unnecessary and immature flaming of different games that people who play SC might also play.
Grow up, plz. I didn't say there is any point to it. But there shouldn't there still be, you know, freedom of speech? And why does dota get special treatment? Also, bashing games is not at all the same as bashing people. Intellectual discussion on an internet message board? Your answer was like an epitome of why that's an impossible demand. You basically disregarded everything I said and just went on a rant. I think the root of the problem is that peolpe take their respective games way too seriously and immediately get super emotional. People saying bad things about a game you like means NOTHING. Just take it as it is: venting.
Not really sure how I disregarded what you said but oh well. Freedom of speech is not guaranteed on the internet, and TL has the right to exercise moderation wherever they see fit. The difference between those who bash SC2 and those that bash MOBAs is that those who "bash" SC2 give constructive criticisms as to why the game isn't as successful as people want, while those who bash MOBAs stay along the lines of "Ez casual game for n00bs lol no skill". And not everyone who bashes games get away with it, so your sweeping generalization is incorrect.
Intellectual discussion does exist, even on TL. It's all about weeding out those who needlessly flame and keeping those who contribute to the discussion in a somewhat educated manner.
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United Kingdom14103 Posts
TL's moderation is what it is, deal with it or leave
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
I actually complained about this >.>
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On May 22 2014 23:45 d00p wrote:
TL;DR: This is an SC site and we should be allowed to say nasty shit about mobas. This is still an SC site, isn't it?
I'm sorry, I don't see the relationship between the two. What does this being a SC site have to do with being allowed to shittalk mobas? A far more logical conclusion is that because this is a SC site, we should not be allowed to discuss mobas.
On May 22 2014 23:45 d00p wrote:
I think that some light MOBA bashing should be allowed on TL now that this site is once again Starcraft only. Dota is just so incredibly annoying! I can't help it. The people involved are so obnoxiously positive (about dota, not about other games)
I mean, are you for real? You sound like you're incredibly insecure about Starcraft. Dota is doing well, and people are excited about it, so let's bash it? You're like the pitiful pessimist that gets miserable because other people are happy.
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On May 23 2014 00:43 Targe wrote:
TL's moderation is what it is, deal with it or leave
No point arguing this one. I didn't really think this would go anywhere. Just wanted to know what the general consensus on this might be and I guess I got my answer.
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On May 23 2014 00:44 lichter wrote:
I actually complained about this >.>
Thanks for sharing. But you do need to grow up.
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If you want to bash MOBAs, I encourage you to purchase TL+!
With TL+, you will receive the following:
- No ads!
- A special TL+ forum!
- A filter button!
- moba bashing is allowed!
Purchase TL+ for yourself and a friend today, for the incredible price of $3.95 USD ($60,000 Canadian dollars)
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
It's just as laughable as some of the newer members who joined for SC2 and who want to kick out the old BW-turned-mobaplayer members.
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TL having standards has nothing to do with Dota being on this site or that.There's plenty of other sites that let you flame MOBAs, they're just not as good since their forums get clogged by whiney bullshit.
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On May 23 2014 00:56 d00p wrote:Thanks for sharing. But you do need to grow up.
wait what? lol
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wondring about one thing, what do you get from bashing other games? you feel better about anything? just enjoy SC2, coz yes, TL is the place for that!
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Team Liquid is not just a website about SC2(/Dota/HS). It is a business. And if people like MOBAs more, then they should like MOBAs more if they want to have a chance to "survive" in the e-gaming scene. So there may be an implicit preference about MOBAs and so they treat their MOBA users friendlier.
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On May 23 2014 00:56 d00p wrote:Thanks for sharing. But you do need to grow up.
No, I mean I mentioned to the other staff that I thought it was too lenient. -_-''
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Tl will always be a sc website.deal with it.it has been a sc website since 2004 and no dota or lota or w.e will change that.
And yes, the sc franchise is more sophisticated mechanically and far more competitive (kespa) than any other game and i dont have a problem with it not being mainstream like moba games which come and go like flies.
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On May 23 2014 01:25 CNSnow wrote:
Team Liquid is not just a website about SC2(/Dota/HS). It is a business. And if people like MOBAs more, then they should like MOBAs more if they want to have a chance to "survive" in the e-gaming scene. So there may be an implicit preference about MOBAs and so they treat their MOBA users friendlier.
Yeah, you're off the mark lol. TL staff actively hate and avoid LoL, the current biggest esport. It isn't about business to them.
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I disagree. MOBA bashing shouldn't be OK.
But it's really obnoxious how much people can hate on SC2 without getting any form of warning or something.
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Canada16217 Posts
I highly disagree with allowing other games to be bashed on by people.
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So, did the guy who wrote "stupid Starcraft" in the OP quote get a warn? If he didn't, then the OP may have a point like "if he can, why can't I?".
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Lalalaland34490 Posts
On May 23 2014 01:38 Capped wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2014 01:25 CNSnow wrote:
Team Liquid is not just a website about SC2(/Dota/HS). It is a business. And if people like MOBAs more, then they should like MOBAs more if they want to have a chance to "survive" in the e-gaming scene. So there may be an implicit preference about MOBAs and so they treat their MOBA users friendlier. Yeah, you're off the mark lol. TL staff actively hate and avoid LoL, the current biggest esport. It isn't about business to them.
Everything else aside, saying we 'hate' LoL is not true. Our reasons for not having LoL are much deeper than 'we hate LoL'.
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On May 23 2014 02:07 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2014 01:38 Capped wrote:On May 23 2014 01:25 CNSnow wrote:
Team Liquid is not just a website about SC2(/Dota/HS). It is a business. And if people like MOBAs more, then they should like MOBAs more if they want to have a chance to "survive" in the e-gaming scene. So there may be an implicit preference about MOBAs and so they treat their MOBA users friendlier. Yeah, you're off the mark lol. TL staff actively hate and avoid LoL, the current biggest esport. It isn't about business to them. Everything else aside, saying we 'hate' LoL is not true. Our reasons for not having LoL are much deeper than 'we hate LoL'.
Well, biased then.
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United States22154 Posts
On May 23 2014 01:53 calh wrote:
So, did the guy who wrote "stupid Starcraft" in the OP quote get a warn? If he didn't, then the OP may have a point like "if he can, why can't I?".
Because moderation isn't perfect, and we don't have a team of hundreds of people reading the forums? Its what the report button is for. In general game bashing, of any sort is a no-no, and we're never going to let people bash games. I don't especially care if you're flaming LoL, SC2, DotA, MtG, Dominons 4, or any other game, there is a difference between rational discourse and "HAHAHA, GAME X IS SO LOW SKILLS AND FOR NOOBS!"
On May 23 2014 01:38 Capped wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2014 01:25 CNSnow wrote:
Team Liquid is not just a website about SC2(/Dota/HS). It is a business. And if people like MOBAs more, then they should like MOBAs more if they want to have a chance to "survive" in the e-gaming scene. So there may be an implicit preference about MOBAs and so they treat their MOBA users friendlier. Yeah, you're off the mark lol. TL staff actively hate and avoid LoL, the current biggest esport. It isn't about business to them.
Its untrue that staff hates LoL, check Nazgul's little AMA in the LoL forum here, but that mental image of tl staff hating league has been, and is wrong.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
On May 23 2014 01:38 lastride wrote:
moba games which come and go like flies.
Yeah ok...
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OP, I feel like, as a foundation SC2 site, TL should moderate slightly more harshly against people who spew negative bs about it.
A bias towards SC2 should be expected and tolerated. On the other hand, "game bashing", which is unreasonably, any game will never lead to a positive community..... it's just bad dialogue
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This kind of catharsis serves no point, and only makes for increased incidents of internet pissing matches between users. The fact I haven't seen an instance of a game bashing related bans in the ABL for sometime is a good thing. Flashback a couple of years and it was a far more common occurance.
TL is a place for more directed conversations about SC2 than other forums, namely /r/starcraft allow for (by virtue of the format and much more active moderation), not allowing for tired jokes about the qualities of other games doesn't make it less of an SC site.
You can have opinions on whatever you want, just don't be an ass about how you express them, or preface them with, "I'll get banned for this," and own your statement.
I would also say you are failing to account for existing rapport between mods and users.
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TL.net was founded on Starcraft / Brood War, so it applies to SC2 as well I assume. It has expanded with DotA/Melee as well which I have no problems with, but one must never forget the site's roots.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
On May 23 2014 01:38 Capped wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2014 01:25 CNSnow wrote:
Team Liquid is not just a website about SC2(/Dota/HS). It is a business. And if people like MOBAs more, then they should like MOBAs more if they want to have a chance to "survive" in the e-gaming scene. So there may be an implicit preference about MOBAs and so they treat their MOBA users friendlier. Yeah, you're off the mark lol. TL staff actively hate and avoid LoL, the current biggest esport. It isn't about business to them.
Speaking of being off the mark, so are you.
Edit: clarified
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On May 23 2014 02:11 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2014 01:53 calh wrote:
So, did the guy who wrote "stupid Starcraft" in the OP quote get a warn? If he didn't, then the OP may have a point like "if he can, why can't I?". Because moderation isn't perfect, and we don't have a team of hundreds of people reading the forums?
Fair enough, but it's a bit hard to believe it's a coincidence that ALL (there were like 10) the negative comments about dota were noticed and received a warning, whereas this was not. And that (BabyKnight retires) thread isn't the only one I've noticed this trend in.
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On May 23 2014 02:50 Zealously wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2014 01:38 Capped wrote:On May 23 2014 01:25 CNSnow wrote:
Team Liquid is not just a website about SC2(/Dota/HS). It is a business. And if people like MOBAs more, then they should like MOBAs more if they want to have a chance to "survive" in the e-gaming scene. So there may be an implicit preference about MOBAs and so they treat their MOBA users friendlier. Yeah, you're off the mark lol. TL staff actively hate and avoid LoL, the current biggest esport. It isn't about business to them. Speaking of being off the mark, so are you. Also, I'm going to provide a longer response to this in an hour or so.
I seem to have hijacked the thread.
The main point of that post was the end of it, the moderation of bashing isn't about business.
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On May 23 2014 02:32 Fazers wrote:
TL.net was founded on Starcraft / Brood War, so it applies to SC2 as well I assume. It has expanded with DotA/Melee as well which I have no problems with, but one must never forget the site's roots.
I don't see what's wrong with having positive blog posts about SC2 or Brood War now and then, that would be perfectly acceptable for the long-time members who want to honour their roots in some way.
The wrong way to remember your roots is by bashing other games though - to be clear I don't mean to imply that you are saying this, this is mostly in response to the OP.
It doesn't matter if it was allowed in the past or not, its still wrong, because it doesn't do anything to elevate the discussion. It just brings people down into a flame war. If the only way that you can find therapeutic relief is to shout at others about how much you think their game sucks, I'm sorry but I think you have a problem with how you deal with your anger issues. I honestly feel like these people need to grow up and learn how to handle disappointing moments with a bit more maturity than yelling at other gamers about what they enjoy.
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East Gorteau22261 Posts
d00p:
Naturally you are entitled to your own opinion, but I think you're somewhat overreacting. When I was made a banling, the biggest issue the moderation team faced was how to deal with the rampant negativity that plagued (and still somewhat does) the SC2 forums in general, both with the incredibly silly "ded gaem"-posts that seem to never end, and the toxic kind of posts that bash everything and everyone, be it a MOBA or a tournament organizer. I feel like overall posting quality has improved significantly over the last few months as that negativity has died down somewhat, but it still becomes an issue in retirement thread like Babyknight's.
While TL's primary focus in terms of coverage is now Starcraft, I don't feel that there is a logical reason for us to allow unmoderated bashing of other games and their players just so that Starcraft players can feel superior because their game is "harder". TL may have a Starcraft focus, but that should not mean actively allowing users to push everyone else off the site through unnecessary hostility. I've had the discussion about the misconception of MOBAs being inherently easier at all levels with a lot of people on TL, and the core of the issue seems to be that people think the lower barrier of entry, mechanically speaking, somehow makes the game inferior to SC. The general consensus on staff is, I think, that that is not the case. Many of us enjoy SC2, BW, Dota 2, LoL, CS, HS and any combination of these and other games.
Personally, I don't feel that TL should be a place where hostile elitists gather to pat each other on the back. You're free to enjoy SC and solely SC, and you're free to dislike MOBAs and even voice your dislike for those games, but we've seen over the course of 2-or-so years that the game vs. game flame wars that badly worded criticisms usually lead to are detrimental to the generally friendly atmosphere of TL. As such, any post that very clearly says "game X sucks, it's a game for kids that aren't good enough to play game Y", is going to be moderated in order to avoid unnecessary flame wars and greater amounts of moderation as a consequence. I understand that you're concerned with the perceived unfairness in moderation between the two groups of fans, and I also agree that I may have been somewhat harsh in the way I moderated the first few pages of Babyknight's retirement thread, but I also feel that this post
On May 22 2014 06:12 Metztli wrote:
Finally ! You could be on all internationals by now if you had not changed to this stupid Starcraft.You wasted so much time with that game.
is not as bad as
On May 22 2014 15:40 RandomPlayer wrote:
dota is such a terrible stupid game for kids...
User was warned for this post
For one, Metztli's post gives off a vibe of "You were really good at Dota, if this game hadn't gotten in the way you could have been at all Internationals" rather than "fuck Starcraft the game is so terrible". The difference is fairly subtle, but I most certainly feel that RandomPlayer's post is decidedly more hostile in that it is simply a bash, nothing else, which for me would have made the difference between warning and non-action.
Also please understand that moderation in these cases are very difficult and case-by-case, where posting history plays a role in equal measure. A lot of these posts are borderline and sometimes, as you say, somewhat warranted, which makes it difficult to moderate with any outwardly consistency. But trust me, we are not actively trying to alienate SC fans by being harsher on them.
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Thank you for your detailed and well thought out reply Zealously. I have to insist though, that it seemed as if Metztli basically registered to the site just to say SC2 is stupid. He had 2 or 3 posts if I recall correctly.
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Lalalaland34490 Posts
On May 23 2014 04:08 d00p wrote:
Thank you for your detailed and well thought out reply Zealously. I have to insist though, that it seemed as if Metztli basically registered to the site just to say SC2 is stupid. He had 2 or 3 posts if I recall correctly.
If he continues he'll get caught eventually anyway.
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On May 23 2014 03:49 radscorpion9 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2014 02:32 Fazers wrote:
TL.net was founded on Starcraft / Brood War, so it applies to SC2 as well I assume. It has expanded with DotA/Melee as well which I have no problems with, but one must never forget the site's roots. I don't see what's wrong with having positive blog posts about SC2 or Brood War now and then, that would be perfectly acceptable for the long-time members who want to honour their roots in some way. The wrong way to remember your roots is by bashing other games though - to be clear I don't mean to imply that you are saying this, this is mostly in response to the OP. It doesn't matter if it was allowed in the past or not, its still wrong, because it doesn't do anything to elevate the discussion. It just brings people down into a flame war. If the only way that you can find therapeutic relief is to shout at others about how much you think their game sucks, I'm sorry but I think you have a problem with how you deal with your anger issues. I honestly feel like these people need to grow up and learn how to handle disappointing moments with a bit more maturity than yelling at other gamers about what they enjoy.
well, I was saying that since TL was based on Starcraft, that the same applies to SC2 as well. After all, the primary focus is SC! Not bashing by any means, it's just how I've always viewed the site. 
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On May 23 2014 04:41 Firebolt145 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 23 2014 04:08 d00p wrote:
Thank you for your detailed and well thought out reply Zealously. I have to insist though, that it seemed as if Metztli basically registered to the site just to say SC2 is stupid. He had 2 or 3 posts if I recall correctly. If he continues he'll get caught eventually anyway.
In TL moderation I trust. I mean that quite seriously. They don't get every post, but they are damn good when one pops up.
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Canada11349 Posts
It's funny that this comes in the wake of opening up TL Dota 2. If anything, we're giving space for Dota 2 to grow while at the same time making TL MORE SC2 and SC centric.
Disallowing negative talk on other games doesn't mean that SC2 is no longer at home in TL. For the simple reason that being against something is not the same thing as being for something. You can be against Mobas, FPS, SimCity... heck, card games, soccer, and rubics cubes. Because screw rubics cubes*
But that doesn't make you any more for SC2. It's nothing. If you are into SC2, be into SC2. But the ability to express hate on another game has nothing to do with it.
*I actually like rubics cubes.
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On May 23 2014 00:00 d00p wrote:Show nested quote +On May 22 2014 23:48 Capped wrote:
I dont like X game so i'm going to bash it and people who play it. No, bashing the people is not cool. Bashing the game, on the other hand, should totally be allowed, though there are other forum rules like flame bating etc that mix into it so it's not always that clear cut.
Brood War vets would like to have a word with you.
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Consider the following three statements:
Dota2 is terrible
SC2 is terrible
C&C4 is terrible
The first is a horrible statement that should lead to a warning. The second is not quite as bad, but still worth a warning. The third is fine, and noone will bat an eye for it... why?
By stating that X is terrible, you implicitely agree with any and all critique directed at that thing (in the context it is said). C&C4 has had very little unjustified critique, and most of the bashing is generally agreed on.
The other two have gotten a lot of stupid flak, from multiple sides. LoL and Dota2 have however gotten much more stupid banter their way - so making sweeping statements against those games are much worse.
On the flipside, SC2 have gotten much more valid critique than Dota2 - mostly because people tend to attack the wrong things about the ladder game.
In short, by bashing a game with no further context or explanation, you agree with both the valid and stupid critiques directed at that game. The more the usual critiques are of the stupid kind, the more stupid you look.
Also - C&C4 is a terrible game.
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On May 23 2014 16:05 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
Consider the following three statements:
Dota2 is terrible
SC2 is terrible
C&C4 is terrible
The first is a horrible statement that should lead to a warning. The second is not quite as bad, but still worth a warning. The third is fine, and noone will bat an eye for it... why?
By stating that X is terrible, you implicitely agree with any and all critique directed at that thing (in the context it is said). C&C4 has had very little unjustified critique, and most of the bashing is generally agreed on.
The other two have gotten a lot of stupid flak, from multiple sides. LoL and Dota2 have however gotten much more stupid banter their way - so making sweeping statements against those games are much worse.
On the flipside, SC2 have gotten much more valid critique than Dota2 - mostly because people tend to attack the wrong things about the ladder game.
In short, by bashing a game with no further context or explanation, you agree with both the valid and stupid critiques directed at that game. The more the usual critiques are of the stupid kind, the more stupid you look.
Also - C&C4 is a terrible game.
The most important part is the tiny sentence in brackets: In the context it is being said.
If there is no obvious context, a statement has to be a statement for itself.
If there is no context, each of those statements is equally bad.
Also the part about what critique is valid and what is not is very arbitrary. A lot of critique directed towards SC2 ultimately stems from it not being Broodwar and those statements quality gets measured with the norms that Broodwar introduced. You could do the exact same thing vis verca.
Meanwhile - in my arbitrary eyes - DotA2 isn't even a game worth noting, because it hasn't done anything noteworthy. DotA was amazing, DotA2 doesn't deserve any credit from a pure gamedesign perspective. It is one of the worst clone attempts in the history of PC games.
This last statement serves first and foremost the purpose of showing why I believe it is important that you have explanations with anything that uses phrases like "worst clone attempts", "terrible game" etc. Because now if that were a discussion about DotA2 , you may not agree with me, but you would be capable of grasping the standards why someone would think that DotA2 is a really bad game. Similarily to how some doesn't agree with SC2's economy system using the arbitrary norm of Broodwar economy, I have used the arbitrary norm of a game needing to feature something new to be good.
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As someone who tried to get the MOBA hype and couldn't understand how people enjoy watching it for the life of me. I completely get your feelings, but it seems as Zealously pointed out, that the modding is not sc2 specific, they try too keep the forums mature.
However, I do feel it's a bit excessive, I got a warning once for a sarcastic remark when saying "yes, but why aren't there any progamers playing" when an only NA tournament's playerlist was announced right after a GSL final, maybe it wasn't the nicest thing to say, but I doubt I would've gotten a warning at any other site. If TL was a country it wouldn't be a democracy lol
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Fully agree on the context part - my main argument was that there is always a hidden context:
The sum of previous discussions about the subject.
Another example:
Savior is a terrible person...
While this statement is objectively horrible - No person should ever be villanized like this - it is somewhat understandable given the context of previous discussions and news on TL.
No statement is ever without context - and this should be remembered when we consider whether it is said with toxic intent. If you don't want your post to be judged solely on the background of the average TL user, you need to provide your own context.
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On May 23 2014 16:57 Big J wrote:
It is one of the worst clone attempts in the history of PC games.
Damn thats harsh, you sure you can't think of a worse clone? D:
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On May 23 2014 16:05 Zaphod Beeblebrox wrote:
Consider the following three statements:
Dota2 is terrible
SC2 is terrible
C&C4 is terrible
The first is a horrible statement that should lead to a warning. The second is not quite as bad, but still worth a warning. The third is fine, and noone will bat an eye for it... why?
By stating that X is terrible, you implicitely agree with any and all critique directed at that thing (in the context it is said). C&C4 has had very little unjustified critique, and most of the bashing is generally agreed on.
The other two have gotten a lot of stupid flak, from multiple sides. LoL and Dota2 have however gotten much more stupid banter their way - so making sweeping statements against those games are much worse.
On the flipside, SC2 have gotten much more valid critique than Dota2 - mostly because people tend to attack the wrong things about the ladder game.
In short, by bashing a game with no further context or explanation, you agree with both the valid and stupid critiques directed at that game. The more the usual critiques are of the stupid kind, the more stupid you look.
Also - C&C4 is a terrible game.
The third is fine because it's obviously THE UNDENIABLE TRUTH.
Seriously the way that franchise has gone makes D2 -> D3 look like the success story of the century 
The first C&C games were so cool
On topic; I think the moment you type out the words "bashing" and "should be allowed" and read them, should be the moment when you hit the "back" button on your browser. (Not that some bashing isn't fine with me, but everyone should be aware that it's not proper, polite behavior.)
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tbh, I don't think that player bashing nor game bashing is appropriate under any circumstances here (personal opinion). While I understand that people do have opinions about things, if you cannot present them in a constructive manner I don't really see the point of saying it anything at all (reminded of that old adage, if you don't have anything nice to say...). What it comes down to largely here on TL is, if we're really trying to foster a 'tight knit' or 'nurturing' community - and I'd hope we are - this kind of vitriolic and deliberately sensationalist behavior isn't really constructive, or encouraging.
On May 23 2014 17:09 Nirel wrote:
As someone who tried to get the MOBA hype and couldn't understand how people enjoy watching it for the life of me. I completely get your feelings, but it seems as Zealously pointed out, that the modding is not sc2 specific, they try too keep the forums mature.
However, I do feel it's a bit excessive, I got a warning once for a sarcastic remark when saying "yes, but why aren't there any progamers playing" when an only NA tournament's playerlist was announced right after a GSL final, maybe it wasn't the nicest thing to say, but I doubt I would've gotten a warning at any other site. If TL was a country it wouldn't be a democracy lol Taking your post at face value, I think the warning is valid. Because of the nature of the internet we can't really tell that your being sarcastic, and it does - at face value - look like a deliberately derogatory post. It's very hard to read peoples intentions through their writing only when you have little to no experience with them. I can only name a handful of posters on TL where I am actually able to read their intentions relatively well, though generally it's quite difficult without auditory or visual cues.
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All of RTS is just a rip-off of Dune.
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On May 23 2014 23:20 ninazerg wrote:
All of RTS is just a rip-off of Dune.
Now THAT game required mechanics.
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On May 23 2014 23:20 ninazerg wrote:
All of RTS is just a rip-off of Dune.
Dune II. It's not like I expected someone who plays a casual point-and-click game like BW to know her shit.
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On May 23 2014 17:09 Nirel wrote:
If TL was a country it wouldn't be a democracy lol
lol i don' t agree with this statement: first of all you got a warning not a ban. Then people forget that this website is privatly owned and no-one owns anybody anything. Still, it is VERY democratic. you can see and read every post that still gets a warning. You can post anywhere at any time. The only things that are asked in return is respect, and common sense. And that is true of real life as well.
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Even the saltiest BW vet would worship SC2 as a golden standard of sequels when it's compared to C&C4. Why did you have to remind it exists.
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EPT
