EPT
Thoughts on the the Health of the scene
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
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Archas
United States6531 Posts
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Gotard
Poland446 Posts
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RevTiberius
Canada353 Posts
"I have always thought that this "bullshit" about "SC2 dying" is largely just people bashing the game, trying to turn this into a self-fulfilling prophecy." And yet, I feel more could be done to keep SC2 viable as a career for pro-gamers because without a vibrant pro gaming community, there are no exciting tournaments that attract a great viewership to begin with. Read the full post here: http://revtiberius.blogspot.ca/2014/03/the-case-against-top-heavy-prize-funds.html | ||
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Paljas
Germany6926 Posts
am i just retarded or are there some known soundcloud issues? | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On March 17 2014 04:33 Gotard wrote: Can you post here your main points or full transcription. Some ppl can read and don't like to listen for 17 minutes when they'd read all you have said few times faster. Transcript implies I wrote this down before I said it. I didn't. I understand you don't "like to listen for 17 minutes" but I don't like to type for 30+ either, I have better shit to do. | ||
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Gotard
Poland446 Posts
On March 17 2014 04:42 TotalBiscuit wrote: Transcript implies I wrote this down before I said it. I didn't. I understand you don't "like to listen for 17 minutes" but I don't like to type for 30+ either, I have better shit to do. You should have some crazy fans that could that for ya! To be honest I assumed that you have some notes with main points of your speech and it would take only few minutes to include that in your post. | ||
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ThomasjServo
15244 Posts
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On March 17 2014 04:51 Gotard wrote: You should have some crazy fans that could that for ya! To be honest I assumed that you have some notes with main points of your speech and it would take only few minutes to include that in your post. I wouldnt trust em not to bugger it up. That said, my style of speech in these impromptu audio blogs is not suitable for a written blog | ||
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DeepElemBlues
United States5079 Posts
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
On March 17 2014 05:05 TotalBiscuit wrote: I wouldnt trust em not to bugger it up. That said, my style of speech in these impromptu audio blogs is not suitable for a written blog Having worked as a relay operator for the deaf (text to speech and vice versa) I'm trying to transcribe the audio (with intent to send to TB to release if he chose to). I've only gotten about 3 min in and it's a BITCH :D (there's a good chance I won't complete it) | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On March 17 2014 05:10 y0su wrote: Having worked as a relay operator for the deaf (text to speech and vice versa) I'm trying to transcribe the audio (with intent to send to TB to release if he chose to). I've only gotten about 3 min in and it's a BITCH :D (there's a good chance I won't complete it) Mhm, it's an absolute nightmare. I used to do it for a living about 5 years ago and I could do it about 140 words per minute. I was transcribing client letters which had to be extremely accurate though so it was a little different. You also really need footpedals to play, pause, rewind to do it properly. | ||
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jakethesnake
Canada4948 Posts
I actually missed the finals (due to bad scheduling on my part), but watched everything else this weekend and, just ignoring the viewer numbers, I don't see the dead game hype. Sure, there are frustrating moments (just like there are when i watch my local hockey team the Senators). But I love this game and love the state it is in - very entertaining. Flaws and all. | ||
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y0su
Finland7871 Posts
On March 17 2014 05:13 TotalBiscuit wrote: Mhm, it's an absolute nightmare. I used to do it for a living about 5 years ago and I could do it about 140 words per minute. I was transcribing client letters which had to be extremely accurate though so it was a little different. You also really need footpedals to play, pause, rewind to do it properly. Yeah, we had to do word for word (and include indicators for tone of voice and background sounds) but we had the advantage of being able to tell people (live) to pause and repeat (and most would take the hint to slow down). I'm not going to continue because I think it'll end up being TLDR'd and I wouldn't be comfortable not doing it verbatim. Very good points tho! Recommended listen if you've got 17min. | ||
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UmberBane
Germany5450 Posts
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
On March 17 2014 04:31 Archas wrote: That's a fantastic URL. Normally I don't go for sarcastic one liners, but this one really fit. | ||
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Gotard
Poland446 Posts
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On March 17 2014 05:57 Gotard wrote: I don't really like when you say that balance is only on blizzard. A lot of competitive games had some mods made by the community. No one cared about the developer when people didn't like some aspects of the game. Which will never be used in WCS so it goes back to being on Blizzard. Unless Blizzard shuts down WCS, use of such a mod would never happen. | ||
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RevTiberius
Canada353 Posts
Just like Coca Cola is not entirely unhappy when a consumer decides to buy Pepsi - because at least that consumer is not deciding to buy a different category altogether (e.g. juice, water, milk etc.). From Coca Cola's point of view, a Pepsi customer is still spending his or her money in the soft drink universe, and therefore remains interesting and could - potentially - become a Coca Cola customer again in the future. For SC2 this means that the community should not put the main focus on the actual or perceived drain of viewership that's due to LOL. The real threat is people who quit the RTS segment or video gamin altogether. People who play LOL can be much easier "recaptured" for SC2 than people who lose interest in gaming completely. | ||
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
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bo1b
Australia12814 Posts
On March 17 2014 06:16 RevTiberius wrote: Just like Coca Cola is not entirely unhappy when a consumer decides to buy Pepsi - because at least that consumer is not deciding to buy a different category altogether (e.g. juice, water, milk etc.). From Coca Cola's point of view, a Pepsi customer is still spending his or her money in the soft drink universe, and therefore remains interesting and could - potentially - become a Coca Cola customer again in the future. Doesn't coca cola own other beverage varieties? I think they'd look at "Look at all these potential people drinking coke!" a little more like "Why aren't these people drinking coke?" A little different really. | ||
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RevTiberius
Canada353 Posts
On March 17 2014 06:32 bo1b wrote: Doesn't coca cola own other beverage varieties? I think they'd look at "Look at all these potential people drinking coke!" a little more like "Why aren't these people drinking coke?" A little different really. Yes they own a huge beverage empire covering all sorts of categories, but my main point is this: losing a customer to a direct competitor CAN BE (doesn't always is) better than losing the customer to an entirely different category or product altogether. Simply because re-capturing a customer that is already using your product category is easier than converting someone who isn't familiar with your product at all. It's basic marketing theory, really. In terms of Totalbiscuit's point: Losing an SC2 viewer to LOL is better than losing that viewer to FIFA 2013 or something entirely different such as UFC on television | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On March 17 2014 04:35 RevTiberius wrote: "I have always thought that this "bullshit" about "SC2 dying" is largely just people bashing the game, trying to turn this into a self-fulfilling prophecy." You know, for a long time I did not think this was the case. I attributed most of it either to misplaced BW nostalgia, or overly high expectations of the game (no, you don't have to have a transcendent experience every time you find match or watch a SC2 game), or simple unwillingness to accept that you suck at the game and not that the game sucks. But, these days, I am not so sure anymore. There could be an element of sabotage as well as dog-in-the-manger about it all. And that, makes me a little sad. Of course, it also has to be fought too. You can't just let the lunatics run amok. | ||
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Kasaraki
Denmark7115 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 17 2014 06:42 aZealot wrote: You know, for a long time I did not think this was the case. I attributed most of it either to misplaced BW nostalgia, or overly high expectations of the game (no you don't have to have a transcendent experience every time you find match or watch a SC2 game), or simple unwillingness to accept that you suck at the game and not that the game sucks. But, these days, I am not so sure anymore. There could be an element of sabotage as well as dog-in-the-manger about it all. And that, makes me a little sad. Of course, it also has to be fought too. You can't just let the lunatics run amok. Yeah, it has slowly shifted. A lot of the people who bitch and whine about the scene are never seen in a LR thread or any other thread that can't be turned into "SC2 dead game" thread. Its pure inference and I have no proof, but I feel there are posters simply ignore everything unless they can dive into a thread and argue who the scene is dying. | ||
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ninazerg
United States7291 Posts
On March 17 2014 04:31 Archas wrote: That's a fantastic URL. It really is. I seldom see blogs that are just a link to a URL, so this is a very refreshing change of pace. | ||
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DinosaurJones
United States1000 Posts
People like to be negative as much as possible, because they think that will change things for some reason. | ||
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RevTiberius
Canada353 Posts
On March 17 2014 06:42 aZealot wrote: You know, for a long time I did not think this was the case. I attributed most of it either to misplaced BW nostalgia, or overly high expectations of the game (no you don't have to have a transcendent experience every time you find match or watch a SC2 game), or simple unwillingness to accept that you suck at the game and not that the game sucks. But, these days, I am not so sure anymore. There could be an element of sabotage as well as dog-in-the-manger about it all. And that, makes me a little sad. Of course, it also has to be fought too. You can't just let the lunatics run amok. Agreed. It is true that SC2 was never as great a game as SC/BW. It is also true that SC2 now has a lot more competition from other good RTS games than SC/BW had in its days. However - and I say that as someone who no longer plays SC2, but still follows the game - the wider SC2 community is very much alive and kicking. | ||
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Gotard
Poland446 Posts
On March 17 2014 06:04 TotalBiscuit wrote: Which will never be used in WCS so it goes back to being on Blizzard. Unless Blizzard shuts down WCS, use of such a mod would never happen. Yeah, you are right in that regard. WCS made SC2 fans more dependent. I remember people playing modded games on quakecon in the past so if developer isn't close minded it isn't a huge problem. To be honest I don't really see Koreans dropping standard HotS to play some mod anyway. I'm a little bit curious about this starbow thingy tho. | ||
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nunun
Denmark181 Posts
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
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Jaaaaasper
United States10225 Posts
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Yorbon
Netherlands4272 Posts
With the amount of sc2 tournaments generally running at the same time, the viewer count indeed surprises me. Also, i saw some awesome games at iem, seeing that the level overall has increased greatly over the time that i haven't watched. Atm i'll be avoiding tvp, after some blink deceptions i saw, but regarding the rest i don't see much bad things tbh. | ||
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1015Fan
United States86 Posts
As someone who has been playing at a high level since the first days of beta I still have a somewhat negative view on the health of the scene, but that being said, I certainly hope everything you said is true, as even though I don't play much anymore, SC2 will always be one of my favorite games. | ||
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DavoS
United States4605 Posts
I'm gonna keep watching starcraft tournaments i'm interested in until they aren't available anymore, as long as enough people think the same I don't think Starcraft has anything to be deathly afraid of | ||
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Whole
United States6046 Posts
On March 17 2014 04:57 ThomasjServo wrote: Best intro ever, that being said you make a fair point. It was ludicrous reading the LR thread for Katowice and having people in the first three pages going, "only 20k viewers..." I don't watch SC2 anymore but are people really saying this? Sure, SC2 might not be getting ridiculous amounts of viewers as it used to, but it doesn't mean it's dead. Huge Magic tournaments only get a few thousand viewers and its community is thriving and alive as ever. | ||
lichter
1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On March 17 2014 09:32 1015Fan wrote: I'm a little confused about the conversion ratio point. I suppose that ratio is pretty amazing if you assume everyone of the 100k viewers also actively plays sc2(hence the 100k viewers/~300k active players) =32%, but there is no real reason to assume that. I know a ton of people on TL who no longer play but watch sc2 occasionally(Most of my friends and I fall into this category as well), and a few people who still play but never watch a tournament stream, so the conversion rate point seems to be extremely inaccurate as far as "conversion" goes and doesn't really convince me. That's even better because that means the game is drawing viewers who don't even play. The entire point of conversion rate is to gauge the proportion of viewing population given the absolute population of players. The assumption is that players are more likely to watch the game, so that number may represent the total number of potential viewers. Even if 50% of the viewers weren't players of the game that would still be good, perhaps even better, because it means that neutral audiences enjoy watching the game. | ||
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Aveng3r
United States2411 Posts
in all seriousness I appreciate your thoughts, a lot of the "dead game" posters here should be forced to listen | ||
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Logo
United States7542 Posts
I think the biggest problem facing SC2 is really Blizzard which is sad. No not balance or anything like that, but Blizzard is basically stuck a generation behind in terms of e-sport support. In the day and age where you have in game streaming, in game tournament tickets, game related tournament add-ons, modern day streaming tools, team banners, other in game representation, and many more great tools for communication, social e-sports, and helping tournaments & players turn a profit... not having that stuff just puts you behind. It happened fast, the concept of e-sports has come a long way since SC2 released, but Blizzard blinked and missed the chance to stay ahead. Far from dead... just behind. | ||
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Nemireck
Canada1875 Posts
On March 17 2014 04:42 TotalBiscuit wrote: Transcript implies I wrote this down before I said it. I didn't. I understand you don't "like to listen for 17 minutes" but I don't like to type for 30+ either, I have better shit to do. LOL, no you don't. This is why you're fat, you lazy bastard. User was warned for this post User was temp banned for this post. | ||
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Thaniri
1264 Posts
After IEM Katowice, sure the finals were bad, but I can't remember the last WoL tournament that had such exciting and close games. I didn't even watch the finals because I'm a terran player but the games I did watch were amazing, and that is what is in my memory from the tournament. The community as well seems to be less poisonous. People are happier about the game than during late WoL. SC2 has a shrinking player base, it's true, but the game is still incredible and our concurrent tournament numbers are still comparable to the golden age of 2011, albeit we have less tournaments. As always, TB I love everything you do. Keep up the good work, you're spearheading a positive change in this community. | ||
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aZealot
New Zealand5447 Posts
On March 17 2014 13:19 Logo wrote: Thanks for the overview nunun. I think the biggest problem facing SC2 is really Blizzard which is sad. No not balance or anything like that, but Blizzard is basically stuck a generation behind in terms of e-sport support. In the day and age where you have in game streaming, in game tournament tickets, game related tournament add-ons, modern day streaming tools, team banners, other in game representation, and many more great tools for communication, social e-sports, and helping tournaments & players turn a profit... not having that stuff just puts you behind. It happened fast, the concept of e-sports has come a long way since SC2 released, but Blizzard blinked and missed the chance to stay ahead. Far from dead... just behind. This is a fair comment, I think. For example, even adding in game links to major tournaments should be done more frequently. They only do it from time to time (probably when they remember). I can only imagine some SC2 players logging in to play, clicking the link and being taken to Revival v Jjakji on Heavy Rain or herO vs Hyun on Polar Night. Even links to vods within the client would be good with a blurb on the series. This would draw more in to the pro scene and the major tournament round. They are getting better though. Way better than they were in WOL. But more can (and should) be done. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On March 17 2014 13:19 Logo wrote: Thanks for the overview nunun. I think the biggest problem facing SC2 is really Blizzard which is sad. No not balance or anything like that, but Blizzard is basically stuck a generation behind in terms of e-sport support. In the day and age where you have in game streaming, in game tournament tickets, game related tournament add-ons, modern day streaming tools, team banners, other in game representation, and many more great tools for communication, social e-sports, and helping tournaments & players turn a profit... not having that stuff just puts you behind. It happened fast, the concept of e-sports has come a long way since SC2 released, but Blizzard blinked and missed the chance to stay ahead. Far from dead... just behind. "Day and age" is a bit of an overstatement. It's basically just DotA that has everything you described, with LoL having a couple features. Not to say I don't agree with you, because DotA's entire business model and in-game systems are what every E-sport oriented game should strive for. But Valve has always been the innovative company, with others following in their footsteps. | ||
NovemberstOrm
Canada16217 Posts
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Jerubaal
United States7684 Posts
On March 17 2014 14:30 WolfintheSheep wrote: "Day and age" is a bit of an overstatement. It's basically just DotA that has everything you described, with LoL having a couple features. Not to say I don't agree with you, because DotA's entire business model and in-game systems are what every E-sport oriented game should strive for. But Valve has always been the innovative company, with others following in their footsteps. Sorry, but I just love the characterization of Valve as some great benevolent innovator while Blizzard is the evil corporation. Hell, I could describe Valve's business model as maximizing income while minimizing actual work done by riding the coattails of others' creativity. If you want to congratulate them on finding a niche, go ahead, but don't act like they're selling you hats their cropsharers made out of civic pride. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On March 17 2014 07:16 nunun wrote: A condensed semi-structured overview. Please feel free to edit and improve, I might have gotten a few things wrong or missed important points.
thanks for this also good point of view generally speaking | ||
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Arevall
Sweden1133 Posts
For me personally though, I have tired of the general negativity in the LR threads. And I actually hate the Dota coverage at teamliquid, but as I'm writing this I realize that with the 'new' site layout maybe I can hide those parts... Edit: Yup, worked great := | ||
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Endymion
United States3701 Posts
On March 17 2014 16:11 Jerubaal wrote: Sorry, but I just love the characterization of Valve as some great benevolent innovator while Blizzard is the evil corporation. Hell, I could describe Valve's business model as maximizing income while minimizing actual work done by riding the coattails of others' creativity. If you want to congratulate them on finding a niche, go ahead, but don't act like they're selling you hats their cropsharers made out of civic pride. i don't know about everyone else, but i still think valve's decision making is far superior to blizzard. Sure, they're still profit driven, although whenever i'm dealing with its software i don't feel the impact of the profit, which is why I think valve has been the clear winner if you compare sc2 functionality to dota2's. I haven't played sc2 since mid 2012, but I still log in every so often to see if blizzard has made the game feel less barren and unuser-friendly: they haven't. The client feels the same as it did back when i quit in 2012, with the same problems and the same lack of polish that i associate with earlier blizzard games.. it's clunky, takes me half a minute to get into a lobby and start the game (despite me having played thousands of games, i still can't quickly find differrent maps and i still run with the assumption that the "search map" function is still bugged to hell like it was back in WoL beta circa 2010..). I can't get community news either, without being involved in a TL group or a seperate community group. Sure, i'll get a little picture that says "IEM finals," but no in client article regarding the event, no in client stream, no in client link that won't bug my client when it asks me to open up a web browser (no option to just "say yes to all inquiries"). If i knew nothing about team liquid, i would log into starcraft 2 and think that the game had been dead and buried for 2 years, both in terms of client quality compared to dota2/league as well as community support on blizzard's end in client.. this is a personal opinion, but TL is the only thing keeping sc2 going.. if TL goes down, all reputable sources of sc2 news go down as far as i'm concerned, as well as any foreigner link to korea. compare this to dota 2's client.. i'm going to load it up literally right now to see what's going on in the dota 2 community. okay. on the front page alone, i can access patch notes, i can read about valve's new documentary, i can read about "fantasy dota2 team support" (interesting as fuck aside from this post in terms of supporting a community..). I can see how active the game is, i can easily find links to playdota's forums, a facebook/twitter link, and direct feeds to the dota2 dev team (in the form of both a feedback forum and a direct feed). i know as experienced players we know where the battle.net balance forums are (that's a joke on different levels), but how are new players meant to find it without links like these? without information? who cares if they're new, if they have a problem with a game they shouldn't have to search around for a way to contact the blizzard devs (which you CANT unless you have a direct feed to an insider, because blizzard is like a complete brick wall..) Continuing. The "watch" tab, i can find a calender of all upcoming events to plan out my weekends, i can find out what my favorite team is doing and how they've been doing, i can find wins/losses from specific events.. Now imagine being a new player, and thinking "oh, watch dota? that sounds kinda weird, i don't really want to commit to paying for it but i still want to see high level play.." they can just hit the "live games" tab and select any game they want to observe whatever random lobby (public) that they want.. they don't NEED to go outside of the client like we do for sc2 to access twitch, they don't need to sift through personalities/races that they might not like, they don't need TL to do anything for them to enjoy dota to on a competitive ground. I haven't even touched the store's accessibility, and just the general functionality of the client.. it's responsive, easy to use, and versatile. there isn't wasted space, there isn't wasted menus, it's just clean. come to think of it, why isn't there just a "melee" part of SC2 where you can find MM and melee custom games and then a whole different arcade part for ease of access? ok, now i'm going to go deep into valve's International marketing and my experience with it. I didn't buy a compendium. When it first came out i was just like "yeah fuck that, i'll just watch the games on twitch if at all." The majority of my friends said the same thing, we had no interest in the international. Then, trading cards happened.. Again, I didn't care about it outside of making fun of player card pictures at the end of a lobby. Then there was an active market for the cards, I started being able to trade them for items and in turn rares.. Then compendiums got their own ladder, and xp boosts, for 3 whole months, giving them extra incentives. Then they started getting free items, making me even more jealous. Then they got a fantasy team style thing, and a cool icon on their profile which was interactive. Then they kept getting more and more things, until i really regretted not buying one. Valve put all that effort into it, supporting its major tournament, and you can be sure that every time i logged into dota while the tourny was running 20 or 30 of my friends were watching games, PMing me about rares they won from watching said games, and just generally enjoying themselves because of the event.. because it really WAS and event, every time i logged into dota i was blasted with international marketing, and I didn't even mind because they were giving me value. They turned me into a fan from being super cynical, which i honestly didn't think they could, making me feel closer to the dota community. What has blizzard done (again, excluding all rage about SC2 vs BW and the current state of sc2) to make the community of sc2 flourish? they've pumped money into the scene? It's just not enough anymore, and the sc2 community is struggling to stay together as a result of the lack of ingenuity on blizzard's part. And yeah, i realize that value is incentivized to sell compendiums and hats and all that stuff, and that it drives the firm's business model. but still, you can't give blizzard a free pass on this, because its game is most certainly on the chopping block while the company sits on its hands and does nothing for the community. blizzard knows this of course, i just dont think they give a fuck anymore and i think they're stuck between a rock and a hard place. they'll release LOTV, and then the executive team in charge of managing sc2 and the other standard IPs will be like "well sc2 fell out of competition with league and dota during its later stages, what went wrong?" and some intern will be like "we didn't innovate, we fell behind and people stopped caring about the game and its client. the passion of a select few can only sustain a game for so long." then the exec will be like "that's true, sc2's business model was out of place and we didn't want to change it for a bunch of reasons.. but what about sc3? can we adapt it into a F2P model similar to hearthstone/mobas?" and the room will go quiet, and i don't think they'll be able to find a solution that fits the niche rts market, even if they managed to get the koreans on board with a return to more traditional mechanics. i hope they can though, because as much as i'm frustrated with sc2 and the development team, i still love the fuck out of it and brood war. they're probably the two best competitive games ever made, and it frustrates me that blizzard refuses to innovate in a way that is conducive to growing a sustainable competitive (and casual) community for its games.. love ya blizzard, dont let me down | ||
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tomatriedes
New Zealand5356 Posts
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iHirO
United Kingdom1381 Posts
Also thanks for promoting different maps in Clan Wars it really helps make the scene less stale. | ||
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Micro_Jackson
Germany2002 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + On March 17 2014 07:16 nunun wrote: A condensed semi-structured overview. Please feel free to edit and improve, I might have gotten a few things wrong or missed important points.
Thank you very very much! Starcraft was once the top e-sport in the world, but that's not the case anymore Are we really sure about this? BW was almost exclusively a Korean thing except WCG. It was big there but in the rest of the world? So you can argue that SC2 is way more marketable than BW despite its lower viewer number due to international exposition. I mean on the same argument you can say Buzkashi is super popular in the world because it is national sport in central asia. (You think Baseball is a weird sport? Nothing beats Buzkashi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzkashi) | ||
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CreationSoul
Romania231 Posts
On March 17 2014 19:54 Micro_Jackson wrote: Thank you very very much! Are we really sure about this? BW was almost exclusively a Korean thing except WCG. It was big there but in the rest of the world? So you can argue that SC2 is way more marketable than BW despite its lower viewer number due to international exposition. I mean on the same argument you can say Buzkashi is super popular in the world because it is national sport in central asia. (You think Baseball is a weird sport? Nothing beats Buzkashi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzkashi) I think he means SC2 was the top esport for a while. I think for the first 2 years after WoL was released, SC2 was the top esport in terms of viewership and prizemoney. Now, I think SC2 is third behind LoL (clearly number 1) and Dota2. | ||
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cravin74
Malaysia1088 Posts
On March 17 2014 19:54 Micro_Jackson wrote: Thank you very very much! Are we really sure about this? BW was almost exclusively a Korean thing except WCG. It was big there but in the rest of the world? So you can argue that SC2 is way more marketable than BW despite its lower viewer number due to international exposition. I mean on the same argument you can say Buzkashi is super popular in the world because it is national sport in central asia. (You think Baseball is a weird sport? Nothing beats Buzkashi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzkashi) I think he is referring to the late 2010 - early 2012, when SC2 was the flagship game of MLG and there was a GSL almost every month. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On March 17 2014 16:11 Jerubaal wrote: Sorry, but I just love the characterization of Valve as some great benevolent innovator while Blizzard is the evil corporation. Hell, I could describe Valve's business model as maximizing income while minimizing actual work done by riding the coattails of others' creativity. If you want to congratulate them on finding a niche, go ahead, but don't act like they're selling you hats their cropsharers made out of civic pride. Funny, you're the only one mentioning good and evil... DotA is still the only game where viewers can buy in-game content to support tournaments, pump money directly into tournaments, get rewards for watching tournaments in-game, etc. No matter what you think about the games, the fact that DotA tournaments can look toward being self-sufficient, or even profitable, purely from in-game money is a very big deal. | ||
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Bswhunter
Australia954 Posts
Well as someone who has been using teamliquid since WoL beta, people seemed to be posting the exact same thoughts and sentiments. Now I don't care what this says about SC2's gameplay or design or whatever. All I know is that SC2 has been able to endure despite all the negativity and bold claims that the game would be gone within year. I also know that I have had some really good times watching professional SC2 over the years. The original HDH, Jinro vs Idra, Moonglade vs Moon, etc. At the end of the day, I still had FUN watching those games. I had FUN following the scene. I didn't have FUN reading 200 pages in a LR of people spouting retarded memes and claiming that the game was dead. | ||
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vult
United States9400 Posts
Thanks for your thoughts! I agree 100% with them. | ||
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radscorpion9
Canada2252 Posts
On March 18 2014 05:13 Bswhunter wrote: Thank you so much for this totalbiscuit. While I am no longer a part of the starcraft community, whenever I dip my toes in it seemed to be just very angry people lamenting that this once great thing was about to die. Well as someone who has been using teamliquid since WoL beta, people seemed to be posting the exact same thoughts and sentiments. Now I don't care what this says about SC2's gameplay or design or whatever. All I know is that SC2 has been able to endure despite all the negativity and bold claims that the game would be gone within year. I also know that I have had some really good times watching professional SC2 over the years. The original HDH, Jinro vs Idra, Moonglade vs Moon, etc. At the end of the day, I still had FUN watching those games. I had FUN following the scene. I didn't have FUN reading 200 pages in a LR of people spouting retarded memes and claiming that the game was dead. One of the funnest parts for me is reading Twitch chat. I swear they all act like babies on there, and its just so funny to read their comments XD. I genuinely mean this in a good way... All the memes, the constant greyfaces, the crazy overreactions to all sorts of jokes (and the picture of boobs) where a thousand comments flash across the screen and then certain individuals make jokes about being washed away in a sea of comments. Honestly, its better than the game sometimes. I also love how when moderators turn off subscriber-only chat thousands of people type FREEDOM!! and it turns into chaos  . Man...reminds me of Day9's chat...when it was subscriber-free and there was more spontaneity. Sigh..I miss those days | ||
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EJK
United States1302 Posts
On March 17 2014 04:42 TotalBiscuit wrote: Transcript implies I wrote this down before I said it. I didn't. I understand you don't "like to listen for 17 minutes" but I don't like to type for 30+ either, I have better shit to do. Transcript does not imply you wrote this down, it implies that you have the mental capacity to recall a summary of what you talked about for 17 minutes all into 1-2 sentences, maybe even a couple bullet points stating what is actually in this cast so that people know what they are getting into before they listen to 17 minutes worth of talking, coz sometimes they have better shit to do. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On March 18 2014 09:54 EJK wrote: Transcript does not imply you wrote this down, it implies that you have the mental capacity to recall a summary of what you talked about for 17 minutes all into 1-2 sentences, maybe even a couple bullet points stating what is actually in this cast so that people know what they are getting into before they listen to 17 minutes worth of talking, coz sometimes they have better shit to do. Yeah, because when someone asks for a "full transcription", they want a 2 sentence summary. You'd think being on a forum would imply the mental capacity to read, but apparently that's too much to ask. | ||
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EJK
United States1302 Posts
On March 18 2014 10:16 WolfintheSheep wrote: Yeah, because when someone asks for a "full transcription", they want a 2 sentence summary. You'd think being on a forum would imply the mental capacity to read, but apparently that's too much to ask. I read "main points" and "full transcriptoin" and my mind blended together main points in a transcript lol. And maybe i didn't read it b/c i have better shit to do | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On March 18 2014 10:24 EJK wrote: I read "main points" and "full transcriptoin" and my mind blended together main points in a transcript lol. And maybe i didn't read it b/c i have better shit to do Well you definitely did shit. Can't say it was better. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16665 Posts
On March 17 2014 18:03 Endymion wrote: i just dont think they give a fuck anymore and i think they're stuck between a rock and a hard place. they'll release LOTV, and then the executive team in charge of managing sc2 and the other standard IPs will be like "well sc2 fell out of competition with league and dota during its later stages, what went wrong?" and some intern will be like "we didn't innovate, we fell behind and people stopped caring about the game and its client. the passion of a select few can only sustain a game for so long." SC2 competes with C&C, AoE, CoH, and Warcraft3 because its an RTS game. Blizzard's official competitor within the LoL and Dota2 genre is Heroes of the Storm, not SC2. The team that made SC2 is the team assigned to Heroes of the Storm. Don't expect this team to return to the RTS genre to make another full "AAA" level RTS game. They will make LotV though. Any Team1 member working on HeroesotS can more easily transfer to other Blizzard projects because Heroes involves all 3 Blizzard universes. the RTS sub-genre of the Strategy genre has been slowly declining for a long while now due to changing consumer tastes. SC2 is the ultimo hombre of the genre. The Strategy genre ( which encompasses far more than RTS) is vibrant and thriving. SC2 and its esports scene will slowly decline for about the next 5 years or so and Blizz won't make another RTS game as both the genre and the platform (desktop PC computer) are engaged in less and less by consumers. if you like RTS games the next 5 years of SC2 will be fun, just don't expect explosive growth. what you see now is what you're going to get. in 5 years the SC2 eSports scene will probably be 1/2 the size of what it is now. expect slow decline. Relic is a shadow of its former self. EA has mothballed 2 RTS studios in the past 5 years. Microsoft closed down Ensemble and did not replace it. and now Blizzard has their RTS team making a "hero brawler". Don't expect Blizzard to put "AAA" development resources into resuscitating a sub-genre that consumers do not want. Blizz has done a great job in a declining genre that is developed for a slowly declining platform ( desktop PC ). Do not blame Blizzard for the eventual death of the RTS genre, and don't blame it on bad community building by Blizzard. | ||
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TotalBiscuit
United Kingdom5437 Posts
On March 18 2014 09:54 EJK wrote: Transcript does not imply you wrote this down, it implies that you have the mental capacity to recall a summary of what you talked about for 17 minutes all into 1-2 sentences, maybe even a couple bullet points stating what is actually in this cast so that people know what they are getting into before they listen to 17 minutes worth of talking, coz sometimes they have better shit to do. I doubt if you really had better shit to do you'd be posting on this forum complaining about something you aren't paying for. | ||
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Artisian
United States115 Posts
The average player probably doesn't have a tournament or team they are playing for, and they need to. | ||
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EJK
United States1302 Posts
On March 18 2014 11:19 TotalBiscuit wrote: I doubt if you really had better shit to do you'd be posting on this forum complaining about something you aren't paying for. On the contrary, i complain about the free stuff (heroes of the storm open beta pls) | ||
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xpldngmn
Austria264 Posts
On March 18 2014 08:50 radscorpion9 wrote: One of the funnest parts for me is reading Twitch chat. I swear they all act like babies on there, and its just so funny to read their comments XD. I genuinely mean this in a good way... All the memes, the constant greyfaces, the crazy overreactions to all sorts of jokes (and the picture of boobs) where a thousand comments flash across the screen and then certain individuals make jokes about being washed away in a sea of comments. Honestly, its better than the game sometimes. I also love how when moderators turn off subscriber-only chat thousands of people type FREEDOM!! and it turns into chaos . Man...reminds me of Day9's chat...when it was subscriber-free and there was more spontaneity. Sigh..I miss those daysI highly recommend exploring TB's soundcloud further, it is hilarious. THX Endymion, please someone throw a brick with this post wrapped around it through a window at the blizzard building. | ||
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Fighter
Korea (South)1531 Posts
On March 17 2014 07:16 nunun wrote: [*]Every time Starcraft has inferior viewer numbers to other games, a lot of people scream that the game is dead
Why exactly should we care about conversion rates over absolute numbers? To make ourselves feel good? If I developed a game tomorrow, and of the 1000 people who played it, 800 were watching the other 200 play, would my conversion numbers astound you all? In however many years, people will look back and wonder which games were more influential in developing e-sports, and right now, it's looking LoL is going to have far more influence than SC2. That bothers a lot of people, because a lot of us want OUR game to be the one of influence. That seems like a legitimate concern, and something worth desiring. Fretting about it might not help the situation, but telling people to focus on conversion numbers sounds like you're reaching for a silver lining and brushing aside authentic concerns that a lot of people have. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On March 19 2014 01:15 Fighter wrote: Why exactly should we care about conversion rates over absolute numbers? To make ourselves feel good? If I developed a game tomorrow, and of the 1000 people who played it, 800 were watching the other 200 play, would my conversion numbers astound you all? In however many years, people will look back and wonder which games were more influential in developing e-sports, and right now, it's looking LoL is going to have far more influence than SC2. That bothers a lot of people, because a lot of us want OUR game to be the one of influence. That seems like a legitimate concern, and something worth desiring. Fretting about it might not help the situation, but telling people to focus on conversion numbers sounds like you're reaching for a silver lining and brushing aside authentic concerns that a lot of people have. People won't look back, and people won't care about past games unless they cared about them in the present. Do you care who won the dick measuring between Quake and CS? Does any non-BW fan care about BW's history? It's not a legitimate concern, it's just a trumped up sense of ego. 10 years down the road, when LoL, SC2 and DotA have moved on to other games or sequels, any talk of influence will be the same group of fans beating their chest for all the same arbitrary reasons. And while absolute numbers are generally nicer to have than conversion rates, it's not like conversion rates are completely meaningless. This entire thread is about the health of the scene, and while it might be nice to have the bigger numbers, conversion rates basically mean the fanbase and viewership that does exist is going to stick around for the extended future. | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On March 19 2014 04:03 Fencar wrote: The "SC2 is dead" meme has been going on for like a year or something ridiculous and some people are still talking about it as if it's a new thing? wtf? People are still talking about it because it's still taking up half of GD. No one's pretending it's new. | ||
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maartendq
Belgium3115 Posts
On March 18 2014 11:32 Artisian wrote: Mostly, I just wish more people would start actually playing in tournaments. I found it all kinda meh until I actually had a tournament. The weeks before that tournament, I cared about all the tournaments, was playing 12+ games a day, and just generally enjoyed the game and it's depth. The average player probably doesn't have a tournament or team they are playing for, and they need to. The average player doesn't have the time to put in 12 games a day just to prepare for a tournament he mostly likely doesn't have time for either. | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
On March 19 2014 17:22 maartendq wrote: The average player doesn't have the time to put in 12 games a day just to prepare for a tournament he mostly likely doesn't have time for either. Nor are there good tournaments for the casuals. there are some cups that are cups and are open. the thing is that they last an entire day so you really do have to blow an entire day to play in a cup, just for the sake of having played in one because most poeple won't win the cup. :p a nice thing to do would be to have a bigger, online tournament, where players agree to a certain time to play together and you get like 2 matches a week or something. ro64 ro32 ro16 ro8 ro4 finals that's basically 3 weeks. you cast some of the ro64, some of the ro32, all the ro16, something like that. winner gets a small prize or something. | ||
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ZAiNs
United Kingdom6525 Posts
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Mistakes
United States1102 Posts
On March 18 2014 11:00 JimmyJRaynor wrote: SC2 competes with C&C, AoE, CoH, and Warcraft3 because its an RTS game. Blizzard's official competitor within the LoL and Dota2 genre is Heroes of the Storm, not SC2. The team that made SC2 is the team assigned to Heroes of the Storm. Don't expect this team to return to the RTS genre to make another full "AAA" level RTS game. They will make LotV though. Any Team1 member working on HeroesotS can more easily transfer to other Blizzard projects because Heroes involves all 3 Blizzard universes. the RTS sub-genre of the Strategy genre has been slowly declining for a long while now due to changing consumer tastes. SC2 is the ultimo hombre of the genre. The Strategy genre ( which encompasses far more than RTS) is vibrant and thriving. SC2 and its esports scene will slowly decline for about the next 5 years or so and Blizz won't make another RTS game as both the genre and the platform (desktop PC computer) are engaged in less and less by consumers. if you like RTS games the next 5 years of SC2 will be fun, just don't expect explosive growth. what you see now is what you're going to get. in 5 years the SC2 eSports scene will probably be 1/2 the size of what it is now. expect slow decline. Relic is a shadow of its former self. EA has mothballed 2 RTS studios in the past 5 years. Microsoft closed down Ensemble and did not replace it. and now Blizzard has their RTS team making a "hero brawler". Don't expect Blizzard to put "AAA" development resources into resuscitating a sub-genre that consumers do not want. Blizz has done a great job in a declining genre that is developed for a slowly declining platform ( desktop PC ). Do not blame Blizzard for the eventual death of the RTS genre, and don't blame it on bad community building by Blizzard. The PC gaming platform has been growing over the past few years. And especially recently with the terrible release of the Xbox One. Although I do not expect a huge explosive growth of SC2 in five years, I do expect it to grow. I have been seeing my friends, and friends friends try StarCraft with the new free version, and even hearing and seeing people who do not play SC at all, tune into IEM, Proleague, and GSL. The game will not have 1/2 the viewers in five years, at the very least it will be where it is now. But I do expect growth based on what I have been seeing over the last couple years. | ||
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Mistakes
United States1102 Posts
On March 19 2014 17:22 maartendq wrote: The average player doesn't have the time to put in 12 games a day just to prepare for a tournament he mostly likely doesn't have time for either. I would say the average player does have time, it's just whether they choose to spend it on that or not. My father who is going back to a university, and works 40+ hours a week plays ~10 games a day, if not more. My friend who works ~32 hours a week, also goes to business school, and has a girlfriend, and a social life, plays ~12 games a day. Small sample size, but it's just how people choose to use their time, not usually whether they physically have it or not. | ||
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Markwerf
Netherlands3728 Posts
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-Celestial-
United Kingdom3867 Posts
In short, a big chunk of Proleague's growth is likely because GSTL died a terrible death. Other than that I broadly agree with most of the rest . | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16665 Posts
On March 20 2014 07:30 Mistakes wrote: The PC gaming platform has been growing over the past few years. And especially recently with the terrible release of the Xbox One. Although I do not expect a huge explosive growth of SC2 in five years, I do expect it to grow. I have been seeing my friends, and friends friends try StarCraft with the new free version, and even hearing and seeing people who do not play SC at all, tune into IEM, Proleague, and GSL. The game will not have 1/2 the viewers in five years, at the very least it will be where it is now. But I do expect growth based on what I have been seeing over the last couple years. i hope you are correct. the # of GSL seasons/MLG weekend events has already declined substantially over the past 3 years. IEM/ESL seems to be holding its own, much like WC3 held its own in Europe. http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2014/01/09/2013-represented-worst-decline-in-pc-markets-history/ " It’s no wonder we’re seeing Intel INTC +1.44% push a new Dual OS initiative at CES 2014. The chip maker confirmed that new processors will be capable of switching between Android and Windows instantaneously. " Mike Morhaime believes Windows8 is bad for PC Gaming. Blizzard's D3 and Hearthstone are clear moves outside of the PC/Win world. It'll be interesting to see what Blizz does with Heroes of the Storm in the next 2 years. More than 5 years ago, Blizzard was happy to put all its eggs in the PC/MSWin basket. No longer... and i can't say i blame them. Steam is introducing the SteamBox because Gabe is afraid of where the PC//Windows OS combo is going. Do you think Blizzard will ever make games for the Steambox? Maybe that is why they conceded the Dota2 dispute so easily. They want to keep their options open once the PC/Win platform bites the dust. I wouldn't be surprised if the "Arcade" ends up having "more life in it" than the SC2 ladder in 5 years. All the big guys are getting ready for the PC/Win market to implode and are making their contingency plans. I've given examples such as Intel, Valve, AMD, i could go on and on. People are spending less and less time with the "desktop PC". | ||
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Incognoto
France10239 Posts
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SnowStormer
Norway275 Posts
On March 18 2014 10:24 EJK wrote: I read "main points" and "full transcriptoin" and my mind blended together main points in a transcript lol. And maybe i didn't read it b/c i have better shit to do That last excuse is childish. | ||
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Mistakes
United States1102 Posts
On March 21 2014 00:23 JimmyJRaynor wrote: i hope you are correct. the # of GSL seasons/MLG weekend events has already declined substantially over the past 3 years. IEM/ESL seems to be holding its own, much like WC3 held its own in Europe. http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2014/01/09/2013-represented-worst-decline-in-pc-markets-history/ " It’s no wonder we’re seeing Intel INTC +1.44% push a new Dual OS initiative at CES 2014. The chip maker confirmed that new processors will be capable of switching between Android and Windows instantaneously. " Mike Morhaime believes Windows8 is bad for PC Gaming. Blizzard's D3 and Hearthstone are clear moves outside of the PC/Win world. It'll be interesting to see what Blizz does with Heroes of the Storm in the next 2 years. More than 5 years ago, Blizzard was happy to put all its eggs in the PC/MSWin basket. No longer... and i can't say i blame them. Steam is introducing the SteamBox because Gabe is afraid of where the PC//Windows OS combo is going. Do you think Blizzard will ever make games for the Steambox? Maybe that is why they conceded the Dota2 dispute so easily. They want to keep their options open once the PC/Win platform bites the dust. I wouldn't be surprised if the "Arcade" ends up having "more life in it" than the SC2 ladder in 5 years. All the big guys are getting ready for the PC/Win market to implode and are making their contingency plans. I've given examples such as Intel, Valve, AMD, i could go on and on. People are spending less and less time with the "desktop PC". Yeah, but I'll group it into PC gaming as long as you're using a mouse and keyboard and it has the same 'PC gamer community' feel it has now. I've never liked Windows or Microsoft, but with more games being released for Linux and whatnot, I don't expect computer gaming to be going down anytime soon. Will Blizzard make Linux releases of their games? Versions available for Steam? I'm not sure. If anything I feel Blizzard would make their own platform or 'steam box' for gaming since they really like to keep to themselves. | ||
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SlammerIV
United States526 Posts
While this might sound selfish, I dont really care all that much about vewier numbers, what I care about is awsome content and right now there is no lack of great sc2. We have shoutcraft clan wars, dreamhack, Iem, proleague, 3 wcs regions Acerteamstory, homestorycup I mean so much awsome content I don't hav etime to watch it all. I will not have any worries about the health of the game untill we are down to a low number of tourneys. right now sc2 is better than it has ever been and seems to be growing slowly but steadily. | ||
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beesinyoface
2450 Posts
On March 21 2014 04:57 SlammerIV wrote: I 100% agree with TB. I actually don't really understand why there is so much doom and gloom about the health of the scene, outside of ballance, which blizzard has been very proactive in fixing, the game has never been better. While this might sound selfish, I dont really care all that much about vewier numbers, what I care about is awsome content and right now there is no lack of great sc2. We have shoutcraft clan wars, dreamhack, Iem, proleague, 3 wcs regions Acerteamstory, homestorycup I mean so much awsome content I don't hav etime to watch it all. I will not have any worries about the health of the game untill we are down to a low number of tourneys. right now sc2 is better than it has ever been and seems to be growing slowly but steadily. Did they pay you to write that? | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16665 Posts
On March 21 2014 04:57 SlammerIV wrote: I 100% agree with TB. I actually don't really understand why there is so much doom and gloom about the health of the scene, outside of ballance, which blizzard has been very proactive in fixing, the game has never been better. While this might sound selfish, I dont really care all that much about vewier numbers, what I care about is awsome content and right now there is no lack of great sc2. We have shoutcraft clan wars, dreamhack, Iem, proleague, 3 wcs regions Acerteamstory, homestorycup I mean so much awsome content I don't hav etime to watch it all. I will not have any worries about the health of the game untill we are down to a low number of tourneys. right now sc2 is better than it has ever been and seems to be growing slowly but steadily. SC2 is in slow decline. the guys saying the game is dead or will be dead in a year are incorrect. but, this does not mean "SC2 is growing". it is not growing. planet earth is a big place. so somewhere on this blue marble there may be small pockets of growth for SC2. over all its down. Blizzard has done a great job and made a great game. Of course Bally-Midway did a great job with Pacman Junior.. that game didnt save the dot eating maze game genre and Starcraft ain't savin' the RTS genre. fickle consumers tastes have changed. changing consumer demands put an end to the dot-eatng maze game genre. it didn't matter how cool and innovative new games were. people had moved on. this same process is happening wiht the RTS genre right now. RTS games will always be around in some form or another just like dot-eating maze games will always be around. But, the big hitters like Microsoft, THQ, EA and Blizzard no longer have any grand RTS games in their plans. RTS games were a focal point for big publishers 10+ years ago. This is no longer the case. The next really good RTS games will come from Indy studios on shoe-string budgets. Unless you want to call Rome2:Total War a really good RTS game,  | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
SC2 is in slow decline. the guys saying the game is dead or will be dead in a year are incorrect. but, this does not mean "SC2 is growing". it is not growing. Do you have any facts or figures for that? Declining player numbers, declining viewer numbers, etc. ? | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16665 Posts
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On March 21 2014 00:23 JimmyJRaynor wrote: http://www.forbes.com/sites/jasonevangelho/2014/01/09/2013-represented-worst-decline-in-pc-markets-history/ " It’s no wonder we’re seeing Intel INTC +1.44% push a new Dual OS initiative at CES 2014. The chip maker confirmed that new processors will be capable of switching between Android and Windows instantaneously. " This has almost nothing to do with PC Gaming. The demographic that will trade in a desktop for a tablet or phone wouldn't even have machines that could run the latest game releases. | ||
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JimmyJRaynor
Canada16665 Posts
you didn't need some specialty "gaming PC" to play Brood War. its just another barrier to entry. "Meanwhile, Nvidia's discrete GPUs for desktops dropped 15.1-percent while its discrete GPUs for laptops dropped 18.4-percent" http://www.tomshardware.com/news/GPU-fourth-quarter-discrete-embedded-graphics-market,21194.html the RTS genre is in decline with the decline in the PC being only 1 component of this. the primary reason for the decline in the RTS genre is a change in consumer tastes. but the flailing PC market is not helping. this article appears to talk about how great PC gaming is doing for helping nVidia makes piles of cash http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57618812-92/pcs-sales-may-suck-but-people-still-are-buying-nvidia-gpus/ but, when u dig a little deeper you'll see that profits are falling. Gabe Newell is hedging his bets with the development of the Steambox. A wise move as people use the desktop PC less and less. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
On March 22 2014 11:44 JimmyJRaynor wrote: circular reasoning. you didn't need some specialty "gaming PC" to play Brood War. its just another barrier to entry. "Meanwhile, Nvidia's discrete GPUs for desktops dropped 15.1-percent while its discrete GPUs for laptops dropped 18.4-percent" http://www.tomshardware.com/news/GPU-fourth-quarter-discrete-embedded-graphics-market,21194.html the RTS genre is in decline with the decline in the PC being only 1 component of this. the primary reason for the decline in the RTS genre is a change in consumer tastes. but the flailing PC market is not helping. this article appears to talk about how great PC gaming is doing for helping nVidia makes piles of cash http://news.cnet.com/8301-1001_3-57618812-92/pcs-sales-may-suck-but-people-still-are-buying-nvidia-gpus/ but, when u dig a little deeper you'll see that profits are falling. Gabe Newell is hedging his bets with the development of the Steambox. A wise move as people use the desktop PC less and less. Yeah, Jimmy, we know all your reasoning is completely circular. No need to preface your posts to tell us what's following. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
I think with Jinro and now this we can finally get a wave of optimism or at least an end to all the pessimism I see in LR's and especially r/starcraft. | ||
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Nirel
Israel1526 Posts
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Nirel
Israel1526 Posts
On March 22 2014 03:29 Big J wrote: Do you have any facts or figures for that? Declining player numbers, declining viewer numbers, etc. ? So what, as things are going now we have at least a few more years of seeing games only get better. | ||
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