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Ok, I will try to keep this short.
I am engaged with a woman I love very much. She is 24, I am 29. I am in the military and she is in law school in another state. I wanted to get married a bit sooner than we actually are, but her parents want her to wait until she is completely done with law school (1.5 years from now) for us to get married. I am respecting their wishes and waiting for this.
I will probably be separating from the air force early and going back to school. I want to go move in with her, she is my fiance so it seems not only reasonable but important to do so. She says she would love for me to move in with her but that her parents will not allow it because of religious beliefs(very christian). I think this is incredibly stupid.
She claims that if she went against her parents they would disown her. I do think that she believes this to be true (but i suspect it's a massive exaggeration of the reality of what would happen).
Regardless, I am not sure this is something I want to compromise about. Not living with her before we get married is a very bad idea yeah?
What do you guys think about this?
   
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maybe you could try to talk to the parents? kinda risky tho.
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You could trying seeing what their religious leader thinks about it first. A lot of pastors/priests now recommend that couples live together before being married. That said, s/he might not back you up and then you would arguably be worse off than before.
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On January 11 2014 07:39 travis wrote: Not living with her before we get married is a very bad idea yeah?
it's a terrible, terrible idea. i'm eternally grateful that I lived with my ex-girlfriend, because if we hadn't lived together, we might have gotten married. quelle horreur
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propose talking to her parents with her, it'll allow you to rationally present your points and listen to theirs, and you as a couple can make a decision there after her parents have said their piece
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I agree that it's not something you want to compromise about. As close as you might be and as sure as you might be that the person is right for you, things can change, and one or the other might realize that is not the life they want to lead, even if they're happy with the person on the surface. I'm surprised you'd even get engaged before doing it tbh - you seem to be at the point where you're kind of committed to marrying her either way, and that might have been a mistake - but it's quite concerning.
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My ex was from Texas and she lived here. Her mom literally disowned her after she learned that I was an atheist. From my understanding, she was taken out of her mother's will. As for how she learned that I'm a heathen, I have no idea.
Regardless, don't fuck with your fiance's limits, you guys will live together soon enough if you're doing well together.
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Have you explained your side to the parents yet? And what does she have to lose if she gets disowned? (college tuition, allowance, trust fund?)
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I'm with sam! It's a terrible idea to get married before co-habitating. It's like walking blindfolded into a hallway full of swords smeared with pigshit.
Also, this girl does not seem very self-actualized with all the talk about disowning and marriage after education is complete etc. A lot of girls, especially American ones, are psychologically immature into their late 20's nowadays. You sure you want to tie the knot with a girl who might change into a whole different person in a half-decade or so? I've seen some girls change pretty dramatically after they get out of school and are introduced to the "real world."
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There are financial reasons involved where her family is concerned but I don't think they are anything we couldn't overcome.
On January 11 2014 07:59 SongByungWewt wrote: I'm with sam! It's a terrible idea to get married before co-habitating. It's like walking blindfolded into a hallway full of swords smeared with pigshit.
Also, this girl does not seem very self-actualized with all the talk about disowning and marriage after education is complete etc. A lot of girls, especially American ones, are psychologically immature into their late 20's nowadays. You sure you want to tie the knot with a girl who might change into a whole different person in a half-decade or so? I've seen some girls change pretty dramatically after they get out of school and are introduced to the "real world."
If she changes I don't think it will be in negative ways and I already love her so... 
I have not talked to her parents or their pastor (interesting idea). I initially posted this for opinions on how reasonable I am being by being stubborn about this.
I am worried about how it would go talking to her parents.. I suspect reason would not sway them.
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I think it is extremely risky to marry someone without living with them. It was difficult for me and my gf when we were living together, but we learned through it. I think you would want to live with her before marrying. Talking to her parents and probably the pastor too, to learn the parents' reasons to say no, and the religion, etc... is a good idea.
Good luck!
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This whole thing sounds crappy. When parents threaten to disown over a religious difference that's bad. Quite honestly it sounds like the parents simply don't like you. If they were truly just being hesitant because of religious reasons then they would actually most likely be pushing you guys to marry not telling you guys to wait for a year and a half for no reason whatsoever (why would she not be able to finish school while married?). The only advice I can give you is you have to start establishing boundaries now. What will happen when you have children? Will you let the grandparents tell you how to raise them under threat of disowning again?
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If her parents looks strongly down upon moving in before marriage, I would assume that they are not too fond of divorce either. There's always a danger that after moving in with someone you find you aren't as compatible as you thought you were, and you really don't want this to occur after marriage.
What I would do is to move in together don't tell her parents. This may or may not be a good idea for you though. In my personal experience, my parents are extremely traditional as well and enforce arbitrary rules on me just because they are rules they grew up with and not for any logical reason. I just hide all details of my relationship from my parents and everyone is happy that way. If I get disowned for it, it's a decision that was solely made by my parents and 100% their fault. Perhaps your fiancé isn't as okay with being disowned as I am. If you can reliably move in together and keep it from her parents, might not be a bad thing to consider.
EDIT: I think packrat's idea of speaking with their religious leader first is actually a good idea.
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On January 11 2014 07:49 packrat386 wrote: You could trying seeing what their religious leader thinks about it first. A lot of pastors/priests now recommend that couples live together before being married. That said, s/he might not back you up and then you would arguably be worse off than before. I think this is actually a really good idea. I'm sure there are even a handful of statistics available to show that living together prior to marriage generally has better outcomes.
Regardless of whether or not the pastor/parents side with you I would attempt to do it anyway, but it's worth trying to convince them before proceeding with anything.
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Northern Ireland22208 Posts
There are important things that you will only learn about each other when you live together - things that can make or break a relationship so you need to know before you get totally committed.
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On January 11 2014 08:30 Grobyc wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2014 07:49 packrat386 wrote: You could trying seeing what their religious leader thinks about it first. A lot of pastors/priests now recommend that couples live together before being married. That said, s/he might not back you up and then you would arguably be worse off than before. I think this is actually a really good idea. I'm sure there are even a handful of statistics available to show that living together prior to marriage generally has better outcomes. of course it fucking does
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That's like a statistic showing people who practice throwing a baseball 10 hours a day for 3 years are typically better than people who have never thrown a baseball before.
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Um, yeah... I'm not sure why an analogy was necessary, but thanks.
On January 11 2014 08:51 teddyoojo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2014 08:30 Grobyc wrote:On January 11 2014 07:49 packrat386 wrote: You could trying seeing what their religious leader thinks about it first. A lot of pastors/priests now recommend that couples live together before being married. That said, s/he might not back you up and then you would arguably be worse off than before. I think this is actually a really good idea. I'm sure there are even a handful of statistics available to show that living together prior to marriage generally has better outcomes. of course it fucking does Sorry, but what exactly was the point of your post?
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her parents realize that you are fucking, right
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On January 11 2014 08:30 Grobyc wrote: I'm sure there are even a handful of statistics available to show that living together prior to marriage generally has better outcomes.
Um, not that I could find.
The first statistic I saw was that people who lived together before being married had 50% higher divorce rates than those who hadn't cohabited. http://firstthings.org/marriage-family-fact-sheet (ctrl f "cohabitation")
That data was like 25 years old though. A newer and probably more reliable study by the CDC showed that the rates were pretty close to equal, with the cohabitation rates only being a few percentages higher. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr049.pdf (page 18)
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On January 11 2014 09:12 LockeTazeline wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2014 08:30 Grobyc wrote: I'm sure there are even a handful of statistics available to show that living together prior to marriage generally has better outcomes.
Um, not that I could find. The first statistic I saw was that people who lived together before being married had 50% higher divorce rates than those who hadn't cohabited. http://firstthings.org/marriage-family-fact-sheet (ctrl f "cohabitation") That data was like 25 years old though. A newer and probably more reliable study by the CDC showed that the rates were pretty close to equal, with the cohabitation rates only being a few percentages higher. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr049.pdf (page 18)
all that's hopelessly muddled because of lurking variables, for instance the fact that people who are less likely to cohabit are less likely to divorce anyway, regardless of the effect of cohabitation, and vice versa
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On January 11 2014 09:12 LockeTazeline wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2014 08:30 Grobyc wrote: I'm sure there are even a handful of statistics available to show that living together prior to marriage generally has better outcomes.
Um, not that I could find. The first statistic I saw was that people who lived together before being married had 50% higher divorce rates than those who hadn't cohabited. http://firstthings.org/marriage-family-fact-sheet (ctrl f "cohabitation") That data was like 25 years old though. A newer and probably more reliable study by the CDC showed that the rates were pretty close to equal, with the cohabitation rates only being a few percentages higher. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr049.pdf (page 18) I'm surprised to find research does indeed support this. Most studies do support the idea that cohabitation before marriage is correlated with higher divorce rates as well as other negative things.
Some articles say (apparently arbitrarily) that cohabitation has a negative effect on the outcome of the marriage, without much evidence to support that. The causality link isn't clear in this case, and I would postulate that the kind of people who would try to cohabit before marriage are perhaps more likely to be more comfortable with divorce or whatever. I don't know. I imagine that turbo-christians are less likely to do the whole cohabitation thing and they're less likely to divorce because of their previous values and whatnot. There are many variables into play here.
Either way, the causal link isn't made as far as I'm concerned. Very surprised to see that though, as I believe marriage before cohabitation to be incredibly foolish. Perhaps I should look at more research findings but this is what comes up first.
On January 11 2014 09:17 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2014 09:12 LockeTazeline wrote:On January 11 2014 08:30 Grobyc wrote: I'm sure there are even a handful of statistics available to show that living together prior to marriage generally has better outcomes.
Um, not that I could find. The first statistic I saw was that people who lived together before being married had 50% higher divorce rates than those who hadn't cohabited. http://firstthings.org/marriage-family-fact-sheet (ctrl f "cohabitation") That data was like 25 years old though. A newer and probably more reliable study by the CDC showed that the rates were pretty close to equal, with the cohabitation rates only being a few percentages higher. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr049.pdf (page 18) people who are less likely to cohabit are less likely to divorce anyway, regardless of the effect of cohabitation, and vice versa Yep probably indeed.
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this is an example of something that science doesn't help you with, ignore "studies" and think with your brain
On January 11 2014 09:36 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2014 09:34 sam!zdat wrote: this is an example of something that science doesn't help you with, ignore "studies" and think with your brain I don't know if you're being rude to me
not intentionally, no, sorry
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On January 11 2014 09:34 sam!zdat wrote: this is an example of something that science doesn't help you with, ignore "studies" and think with your brain I don't know if you're being rude to me or if you're just making a statement here but I want to say that we agree about this. And I'm not sure that "ignore studies" is ever a good idea. Look at the studies and try to see what can be derived from them, if anything.
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On January 11 2014 07:39 travis wrote: Ok, I will try to keep this short.
I am engaged with a woman I love very much. She is 24, I am 29. I am in the military and she is in law school in another state. I wanted to get married a bit sooner than we actually are, but her parents want her to wait until she is completely done with law school (1.5 years from now) for us to get married. I am respecting their wishes and waiting for this.
I will probably be separating from the air force early and going back to school. I want to go move in with her, she is my fiance so it seems not only reasonable but important to do so. She says she would love for me to move in with her but that her parents will not allow it because of religious beliefs(very christian). I think this is incredibly stupid.
She claims that if she went against her parents they would disown her. I do think that she believes this to be true (but i suspect it's a massive exaggeration of the reality of what would happen).
Regardless, I am not sure this is something I want to compromise about. Not living with her before we get married is a very bad idea yeah?
What do you guys think about this?
I would ask her if she can control her own life (don't phrase it like that, or else you'll get into a heap of trouble)
When she responds with yes, tell her it's her own decision. Her parents disowning her seems to be more of a way for them to control her through negative consequences more than it is actually them wanting to disown her for doing something they don't agree with.
On the other side of this argument, I don't know her to well, but based on the circumstances, she may be trying to put it off for some reason, and is using her parent's wishes as a scapegoat.
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I think it's a good idea to be in your wife's parents good books... Even though it would be better if you lived together first, it's okay to respect her parents' feelings. Either talk it out with them and get their approval, or deal with it.
I'm saying this because it's obviously not the case that she and her parents have a bad relationship. I also don't really like the idea of going behind their backs to talk to a priest to give yourself more ammo... I would find that really obnoxious. They're probably well aware that it's the norm for even Christians to live together before they're married.
If you think this might be just the beginning of conflicts, it's probably best to sort out early on how you're going to deal with it. Try to avoid making your fiance choose between her parents and you ;p
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I think if you want a girl to be your wife, for the rest of your life, she should respect what you want and move montains to accomodate to your needs.
Worse case scenario she should be willing to be disowned to live with you, if that's what you want, and make it your decision. Of course it is better if you can convince parents, but keep this in mind.
Maybe I'm very paranoid, but there is nothing worse than when you accomodate to much to a girl because "you love her" and it ends up backfiring on you (own experience)
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Getting married without having lived with the girl is like buying a house having only seen pictures of it. You have to understand that a relationship where you are just seeing each other from time to time is very different from one where you are spending the majority of your time together. You then get to see all the cracks in the walls and can judge if you really want to live in that house for many years or not.
That said, if her family situation is that extreme, you might not be able to move in before marrying. I liked the idea of trying to get some sort of pastoral support, but that could also very easily blow up in your face or make you look very defensive in the eyes of your girlfriend/her family.
Best option here is probably to sit down with her and have a long and calm talk about it. List the pros and the cons, discuss the options, and try to reach a compromise where both of you agree on how to proceed with this issue. Its essential that you get her full support (and that you give her your full support as well) on whatever action you both decide to take, because you don't really want to start a potential marriage by taking one-sided decisions and confronting her whole family and system of beliefs.
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Something that really bothers me is that her sister actually recently got married after rushing into it, and then got a divorce. Firstly, I thought that a divorce "wasn't christian", and yet they didn't disown her. Secondly, maybe she wouldn't have gotten married if she had lived with the guy for a while first. It's so frustrating.
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being stubborn about needing to move in with someone before you get married implies a sort of belief that there could be something that you would find out (upon living with her for the next 1.5 years before you get married) and then decide getting married was a bad idea: i think that the more stubborn you are, the more it feels that you would think, implicitly, this was a possibility.
if she genuinely feels that moving in together before you are married would damage her relationship with her parents, and you are "stubborn" about it, then it feels like you are essentially equating your feelings about moving in together before you get married with her feelings about her parents which seems insane to me.
stubborn in this case i mean as against/despite anything. i think if its something that you want to really do then to talk to her parents (and her/their pastor) etc. like people suggested already would be the best way to go about it, and to really consider 1. how important moving in together before you get married is to you and 2. why its important (ie what do you expect to come from it or whatever)
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On January 11 2014 08:51 teddyoojo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2014 08:30 Grobyc wrote:On January 11 2014 07:49 packrat386 wrote: You could trying seeing what their religious leader thinks about it first. A lot of pastors/priests now recommend that couples live together before being married. That said, s/he might not back you up and then you would arguably be worse off than before. I think this is actually a really good idea. I'm sure there are even a handful of statistics available to show that living together prior to marriage generally has better outcomes. of course it fucking does
Actually, many statistics have shown the opposite. But, is this really a site that cares at all what statistics say? From my experience, people make up their minds first and read that into the statistics later.
Fact is, you can't practice permanence. You can, however, practice divorce. If you're engaged already, then heads up, marriage is on its way. If you want to be married forever, then jump in with both feet. If you spend your marriage scuttling at the edge of quitting, I can guarantee you that an opportunity will present itself.
I've only been married for almost 6 years, but I've already decided that nothing she does is going to make me leave her. Obviously, if she did certain things, it would cause our marriage to suffer greatly, but when I told her "through sickness and health" that was a promise I intended to keep. It wasn't, "through health until I get tired of you" or "for richer, def. not for poorer."
Likewise, she made a commitment to never leave me. Does that mean I get to do whatever I want and she'll still cook me meals 'n stuff? Well, kind of, but that's not the point. That means that all the more do I not want to hurt her. I'm all the more interested in loving her because I know she won't leave. I'm not sitting around theorizing about all the things I could get away with. That freedom increases my will to love her.
What does all this have to do with cohabiting before marriage? It means if you love her, then show her by jumping in. I honestly don't know why parents in America have this "finish school first" fetish, but if I were you, I'd explain to them that I don't want to practice marriage and us living together and play-making babies is only stringing your daughter along for the hope of marriage (many* women greatly desire to be married, whether they admit it or not) without the permanence, without the security. Basically, I want to man up and marry her.
I don't know how long you guys have been engaged, but another year and half seems egregiously long for no really good reason. Obeying the wishes of her parents is always a good reason, however, I would meet with them personally and sway them otherwise. In fact, I did that very thing with my wife. We married when we both had a year of school left. Actually, she had 4 left counting grad (dr. of physical therapy), but anyway.
That's how I see it. I'm about in the 1 percentile here, but you asked and I got some pretty crappy advice growing up that I followed, so now I open my mouth when people are searching for answers.
Good luck. I sincerely mean it.
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We can drop the statistics stuff I think we can all agree the research done on it is probably flawed either way.
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she postponed for 1.5 years because her parents told her to? And then doesnt even want to move in with you?
Thats a really strange relation to her family that she developed there. Does she have a abusive father or something that made her afraid to do anything against "the family"?
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On January 11 2014 10:19 travis wrote: Something that really bothers me is that her sister actually recently got married after rushing into it, and then got a divorce. Firstly, I thought that a divorce "wasn't christian", and yet they didn't disown her. Secondly, maybe she wouldn't have gotten married if she had lived with the guy for a while first. It's so frustrating. Do you feel like you know her well enough? Do you feel like part of why you're getting married is because you're getting older and you want to start the next stage of your life?
I'm agreeing with the other poster, and I think divorce is more likely to be caused by people marrying for the wrong reasons than because they didn't try living together first. If you feel like you don't know if you two are capable of being reasonable and compromising with each other when you live together, maybe it's just too soon generally. Relationships break down because people get hard headed and can't resolve their problems. More so with marriage because it is a much bigger part of your life. If you find it really annoying that her parents are interfering with your relationship now, you've probably got more frustration to look forward to in the future. If you think she's taking their side too much, maybe it's only a sign of things to come. I feel like a dickhead telling you that about your fiance, but figure out if you're okay with what she's doing, because she is as much a part of this issue as her parents are.
Is it a minor thing that you just don't get why her parents want that, or is it something that really bothers you because of the politics involved, and not the issue of living together? It's hard to tell how much it bothers you. It's sort of important you know how much it bothers you and why it bothers you. Then what you need to do will be more obvious.
On January 11 2014 10:38 LaNague wrote: she postponed for 1.5 years because her parents told her to? And then doesnt even want to move in with you?
Thats a really strange relation to her family that she developed there. Does she have a abusive father or something that made her afraid to do anything against "the family"? Don't take that out of context, that makes it really confusing. Her parents want her to wait until she's done Law school, which happens to be 1.5 years. You can blame her parents, but she might feel that way too. Law school is hard, a marriage is a distracting event to plan for and organize and involves a lot of big changes in your life. Why stress yourself out while you're still in school?
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On January 11 2014 09:36 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2014 09:34 sam!zdat wrote: this is an example of something that science doesn't help you with, ignore "studies" and think with your brain I don't know if you're being rude to me or if you're just making a statement here but I want to say that we agree about this. And I'm not sure that "ignore studies" is ever a good idea. Look at the studies and try to see what can be derived from them, if anything.
You should spend some time researching how often studies, even by reputable labs, are flawed and publish skewed, biased results. There's actually a big backlash right now in the scientific community concerning directed research and how the whole R&D funding system in the USA operates. So, no, studies are not always some kind of proof-positive.
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I have been married since August of last year, and I have been living with my wife since October 2012. It's definitely a good idea to live together before marriage, I think you learn a lot about each-other and you'll start working on problems now that you won't have anticipated. That being said, I don't think it would make or break your marriage - you're either going to work well as a married couple or you won't, cohabitating beforehand isn't going to change that. Don't force something on her and risk the consequences.
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On January 11 2014 10:38 LaNague wrote: she postponed for 1.5 years because her parents told her to? And then doesnt even want to move in with you?
Thats a really strange relation to her family that she developed there. Does she have a abusive father or something that made her afraid to do anything against "the family"?
The postponing made a certain amount of sense though. Don't worry about it.
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It's such a terrible idea to not live with someone before marrying them. If it's important to you, don't back down from it.
You guys have to live your lives how you want to live them. Either her parents want to be a part of that, or they don't. But they don't get to hold your relationship hostage with their (potential) threats.
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On January 11 2014 10:45 SongByungWewt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2014 09:36 Djzapz wrote:On January 11 2014 09:34 sam!zdat wrote: this is an example of something that science doesn't help you with, ignore "studies" and think with your brain I don't know if you're being rude to me or if you're just making a statement here but I want to say that we agree about this. And I'm not sure that "ignore studies" is ever a good idea. Look at the studies and try to see what can be derived from them, if anything. You should spend some time researching how often studies, even by reputable labs, are flawed and publish skewed, biased results. There's actually a big backlash right now in the scientific community concerning directed research and how the whole R&D funding system in the USA operates. So, no, studies are not always some kind of proof-positive. Isn't that my point? I'm just saying you don't ignore them completely, you look at them and see if you can take something from them. Social sciences are not made off of people like myself or anyone else taking the best guess they can. We have to base our conclusion on something that's at least somewhat tangible. It's a good idea to at least look at studies, read their methodology and whatnot.
A lot of the time, the conclusion is full of unfounded shit, which is why it's a good idea to look at the data and whatnot.
It's irritating that you'd tell me that I should "spend time researching shit" like that when I was just basically saying that people shouldn't make their own conclusions. You should spend time researching how effective it is to do social sciences by posing an hypothesis on a whim and declaring it to be true.
As for the last line of your post, you say "So, no, studies are not always some kind of proof-positive.". That's obvious as fuck and my post reflects that, so I don't know who the hell you're arguing with.
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On January 11 2014 08:04 travis wrote:There are financial reasons involved where her family is concerned but I don't think they are anything we couldn't overcome. Show nested quote +On January 11 2014 07:59 SongByungWewt wrote: I'm with sam! It's a terrible idea to get married before co-habitating. It's like walking blindfolded into a hallway full of swords smeared with pigshit.
Also, this girl does not seem very self-actualized with all the talk about disowning and marriage after education is complete etc. A lot of girls, especially American ones, are psychologically immature into their late 20's nowadays. You sure you want to tie the knot with a girl who might change into a whole different person in a half-decade or so? I've seen some girls change pretty dramatically after they get out of school and are introduced to the "real world."
If she changes I don't think it will be in negative ways and I already love her so...  I have not talked to her parents or their pastor (interesting idea). I initially posted this for opinions on how reasonable I am being by being stubborn about this. I am worried about how it would go talking to her parents.. I suspect reason would not sway them. They have their reasons. It is unlikely that they think that living together before marriage is inherently a sin, I have never heard of such a belief in any portion of the Bible or Christianity. It is most likely that they are afraid of something that may happen as a result of living together, in which case you should be able to assuage their fears. Unless, of course, they're afraid that now that they've let their daughter off the leash, she's going to run right into premarital sex and drugs and sin and heresy and damnation. Regardless, they have their reasons for not liking you two moving in together. Try and learn their reasons and try to understand their mindset. Unless they don't like you (in which case you're going to have to fight them anywayssooner or later), they won't try and bite your head off for asking them some questions and trying to understand them. Go to them and go to their pastor and learn what you can from both. Oh and try to humble yourself. Christians are like Captain America's shield, the more you try and brute force them, the stronger and stronger their faith gets.
Darn it I just realized I starting puking information all over the place again. I hope a lot of that was actually useful rather than something you've already realized and dealt with a thousand times before as a fiance.
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If you truly love each other, it doesn't really matter. If you are not that sure about your feelings you shouldn't be marrying in the first place.
Having to live together before marriage is bs.
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Woah man, mad aggressive. You should embrace your inner light more often. I don't think it's a good idea to look at studies. Especially about something like who you spend your life with. Do you really think there is a science to human relationships?Look to yourself for answers. There's no data out there that'll tell you who you personally should be with and how you should get along with them.
And honestly there was nothing obvious in your post except that you wanted people to look at studies. Which is what I responded to. So I don't understand why you're cursing up a storm and chewing holes in your underwear about it. But travis isn't interested in stats so I guess if you want to discuss this further we can PM.
As to travis' situation, postponing sounds totally okay to me. I know plenty of ppl who postponed engagements for timing reasons and it was no impediment to their later marriage.
Same with not cohabiting. There are exceptions to everything. But if you want to cohabit and think there is more to know, then I think it's a good instinct. Go with your gut. Don't worry about whether it's morally/rationally right or wrong or justified. You're 50% of the marriage, everyone else except your wife is 0%. You should have full say in how it progresses.
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why did people 1 star this. lol, geeze
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On January 11 2014 11:00 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2014 08:04 travis wrote:There are financial reasons involved where her family is concerned but I don't think they are anything we couldn't overcome. On January 11 2014 07:59 SongByungWewt wrote: I'm with sam! It's a terrible idea to get married before co-habitating. It's like walking blindfolded into a hallway full of swords smeared with pigshit.
Also, this girl does not seem very self-actualized with all the talk about disowning and marriage after education is complete etc. A lot of girls, especially American ones, are psychologically immature into their late 20's nowadays. You sure you want to tie the knot with a girl who might change into a whole different person in a half-decade or so? I've seen some girls change pretty dramatically after they get out of school and are introduced to the "real world."
If she changes I don't think it will be in negative ways and I already love her so...  I have not talked to her parents or their pastor (interesting idea). I initially posted this for opinions on how reasonable I am being by being stubborn about this. I am worried about how it would go talking to her parents.. I suspect reason would not sway them. They have their reasons. It is unlikely that they think that living together before marriage is inherently a sin, I have never heard of such a belief in any portion of the Bible or Christianity. It is most likely that they are afraid of something that may happen as a result of living together, in which case you should be able to assuage their fears. Unless, of course, they're afraid that now that they've let their daughter off the leash, she's going to run right into premarital sex and drugs and sin and heresy and damnation. Then again, if that's the case, they probably wouldn't support her being in a relationship in general. It's part of the belief that sex before marriage is bad and the idea is that cohabitation will most likely lead to sex. I'm sure that in many cases, Christians are opposed to cohabitation itself because of old traditions or whatever. Friends of the family don't know that the two people hook up, but if two people live together, odds are that they do.
It's part of the whole thing where people who have a kid out of "wedlock" will get married because that's how that situation is usually dealt with.
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On January 11 2014 11:04 SongByungWewt wrote: Woah man, mad aggressive. You should embrace your inner light more often. I don't think it's a good idea to look at studies. Especially about something like who you spend your life with. Do you really think there is a science to human relationships?Look to yourself for answers. There's no data out there that'll tell you who you personally should be with and how you should get along with them. Inner light? x_x
And there's no science to it, but sociology and psychology try to get some understanding of human behavior. As a politcial science master student, I'm very aware of the flaw in studies, and I seem to be more aware than you about the flaw in people's opinions that they make up on the fly.
And honestly there was nothing obvious in your post except that you wanted people to look at studies. Which is what I responded to. So I don't understand why you're cursing up a storm and chewing holes in your underwear about it. But travis isn't interested in stats so I guess if you want to discuss this further we can PM. My post said that studies should be at least considered and not dismissed with the back of the hand. If you want to get a good idea of a phenomenon, look at all the sources of information. That's all.
Feel free to dismiss them AFTER having looked into them, or dismiss parts of those studies and sources of information. Ignoring shit is not a good idea.
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On January 11 2014 11:07 travis wrote: why did people 1 star this. lol, geeze Welcome to blogging. :/
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On January 11 2014 11:08 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2014 11:00 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On January 11 2014 08:04 travis wrote:There are financial reasons involved where her family is concerned but I don't think they are anything we couldn't overcome. On January 11 2014 07:59 SongByungWewt wrote: I'm with sam! It's a terrible idea to get married before co-habitating. It's like walking blindfolded into a hallway full of swords smeared with pigshit.
Also, this girl does not seem very self-actualized with all the talk about disowning and marriage after education is complete etc. A lot of girls, especially American ones, are psychologically immature into their late 20's nowadays. You sure you want to tie the knot with a girl who might change into a whole different person in a half-decade or so? I've seen some girls change pretty dramatically after they get out of school and are introduced to the "real world."
If she changes I don't think it will be in negative ways and I already love her so...  I have not talked to her parents or their pastor (interesting idea). I initially posted this for opinions on how reasonable I am being by being stubborn about this. I am worried about how it would go talking to her parents.. I suspect reason would not sway them. They have their reasons. It is unlikely that they think that living together before marriage is inherently a sin, I have never heard of such a belief in any portion of the Bible or Christianity. It is most likely that they are afraid of something that may happen as a result of living together, in which case you should be able to assuage their fears. Unless, of course, they're afraid that now that they've let their daughter off the leash, she's going to run right into premarital sex and drugs and sin and heresy and damnation. Then again, if that's the case, they probably wouldn't support her being in a relationship in general. It's part of the belief that sex before marriage is bad and the idea is that cohabitation will most likely lead to sex. I'm sure that in many cases, Christians are opposed to cohabitation itself because of old traditions or whatever. Friends of the family don't know that the two people hook up, but if two people live together, odds are that they do. It's part of the whole thing where people who have a kid out of "wedlock" will get married because that's how that situation is usually dealt with. I hope that's not the case. Amusing belief either way, considering there are couples like Incontrol and Anna Prosser that managed to hold off until marriage. Say what you will about anecdotal evidence, but that's rather impressive. If that's what the parents believe, they are either uneducated of what people are capable of, or they lack faith in your (or their daughter's) virtue. I'm kinda surprised Travis hasn't talked to the parents yet, though. That's kind of important considering they're the ones actually making the decision.
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Lol if you speak with the "religious leader" he's just going to be judgmental. Waste of time.
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I know my asian family (apparently in culture too) it is still severely frowned upon to move in before marriage (why i have no idea). Maybe compromise to a shorter period of time
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As far as disownment, grand children will fix that if it's even a realistic concern.
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On January 11 2014 12:14 Thrill wrote: As far as disownment, grand children will fix that if it's even a realistic concern.
Fat babies are the ultimate weapon when it comes to family reconciliations.
To Djzapz: You very well could be more aware than me. I am not sure. I do not know you well enough. But you seem like a pretty credible fellow so I'll take your word for it.
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On January 11 2014 10:19 travis wrote: Something that really bothers me is that her sister actually recently got married after rushing into it, and then got a divorce. Firstly, I thought that a divorce "wasn't christian", and yet they didn't disown her. Secondly, maybe she wouldn't have gotten married if she had lived with the guy for a while first. It's so frustrating. Perhaps the girl you're involved with is the parents' favorite, and they hold her to a higher standard. Still, it seems silly that they would disown her just for moving in with her fiancé. Do they think you aren't sleeping together also? Ridiculous. It's your life, not theirs. I would hate to have to put up with that. It seems like you may be spending more time with them in the future so I guess it's a tough call. I like the talk to their pastor idea and move in secretly idea.
Edit: Just learned that fiancé is a woman's man, and fiancée is a man's woman. Lol.
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The worst thing you can do is to make her choose between you and her parents. You can just live close to her I think.
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Nobody on the internet can give you specific advice about your relationship, because no one knows the details about how your relationship really works. The sort of crude, biased overview you can give in three paragraphs will never be enough. At best, you'll get some new questions to ask yourself about the situation you're in.
That said, your fiancee is an adult. The idea of the two of you making important decisions on the basis of her parents' blackmail is very sketchy. While it's not that big a sacrifice for you to make in this specific instance, if her parents are going to keep sticking their noses in none-of-their-business, and if that's going to keep trumping what you think is important, you're in for a world of trouble. If the whole parents are going to disown me is just an underhanded way for her to get her will, that's worse yet. If she understands that your relationship is going to be about making the two of you and not her parents happy, and if this is just sort of the last formality before they start treating her as a grown up, and if this isn't really all that big a deal for you, then there's really no problem at all.
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On January 11 2014 13:38 ETisME wrote: The worst thing you can do is to make her choose between you and her parents. You can just live close to her I think. I like this idea, why not move in next door? Perhaps it is simply an awkward test to see how you will handle yourself, and they don't actually care of the outcome, they just want to see what you will do?
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1001 YEARS KESPAJAIL22272 Posts
On January 11 2014 13:38 ETisME wrote: The worst thing you can do is to make her choose between you and her parents. You can just live close to her I think.
If I were you, I would first talk to her parents about it (desire to get married sooner, cohabitation, etc), then suggest asking their pastor/religious leader about it, then suggest this idea which I actually really like. I also do not agree with making a girl choose between you and her parents.
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On January 11 2014 11:52 CecilSunkure wrote: Lol if you speak with the "religious leader" he's just going to be judgmental. Waste of time. Really depends on the guy and how you approach him. Many of the greatest saints and religious leaders who ever lived were praised the most for their humility. Heck, one of Jesus's defining traits is that he treated everyone else as a son of God and himself as a bottom-of-the-barrel servant.
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On January 11 2014 11:52 CecilSunkure wrote: Lol if you speak with the "religious leader" he's just going to be judgmental. Waste of time. It depends what religion we're talking about here and what kind of pastor/priest/whatever they happen to have. They might be hardcore catholics in a relatively liberal parish.
edit: didn't really finish my train of thought (its late). Basically, you don't know this. Religious leaders vary in their liberalness and judgmentalness ( <-- totally not a word).
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imo, the importance of living together is massively exaggerated. Everyone has little things that will get under your skin, and if you love them, you'll get over it.
I'd say, best to respect their wishes and preserve family unity, as that will matter in the long run, while living together before you get married is a short term situation.
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Living together is so much different. You need to try it for at least a couple months.
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Netherlands6181 Posts
Interesting discussion. I think you should definitely live together before marriage. It gives you a chance to see how you interact with someone you are constantly in close proximity with. At the very least it gives you time to work out a schedule/system around each other and you'll know what to expect. I agree with packrat386 too, I would consult the priest at her parents church and discuss with him the churches views on living together before marriage. See what he says, and see what insight he can give to her parents' minds so that you can approach the situation better. Following this, speak to her parents yourself and explain why you feel it is necessary for you to live together before the wedding.
Backstory + Show Spoiler +Luckily my parents aren't religious, but they are still old fashioned in that if a boyfriend came to stay he wouldn't be allowed in my room. They wouldn't care though if I moved out and had a boyfriend move in though. Although that would still have to be a very serious relationship for any moving in to happen.
My mother not only had me out of wedlock, but lived with my step dad for about a year before they married despite her having an extremely religious mother, so I know where your fiance is coming from. My grandmother was always impressing on me how important it is that a woman is a virgin on her wedding day, that a couple should never live together before they are married etc, and how disappointing my mother was to her. My mom was never outright rejected of course, but it is fairly obvious that she is the least favourite child in the family.
I left the country at 18 to go to university and naturally I dated in the three years I was there. None of my boyfriends lived in town, so I usually ended up going out to their place on the weekend to spend time with them. My great aunt let this information slip to my grandmother and she was absolutely broken to think I was sleeping elsewhere. Surprisingly, my step-father stood up for me and comforted her and told her I was a big girl now and I knew what I was doing.
Edit: I don't think it is so much that she'll be disowned that she is scared of upsetting and disappointing them. She seems to be an ambitious young person, and parents of ambitious children tend to have high expectations of them. She is scared of letting them down and going against the way she has been brought up. If you force the issue her parents will blame you and you will lose son-in-law points.
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Stop pleasing the parents. Not "allowing" her to move in with you at the age of 24 isn't "very religious", that's just crazy. If they don't get some kind of wake up call they'll never change.
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Her parents would disown her because of a life choice she made at the age of 24? What's to say they won't keep trying to control her when she's married then?
I've been in a similar situation, she wouldn't move in with me because of her "parents wishes". 6 months later she left me and moved in with another dude but her parents were totally okay with it. I'm not saying that this is happening to you, but if she isn't willing to take that step with you then it just seems to me like she isn't ready. If she was she would move in with you and deal with it. If her parents are decent people they would understand that she is a woman, not a child. Yes they might be upset at first but they would get over it. At the end of the day it's her decision to make.
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sounds like a ticking bomb to be honest. even if you think that you can cave-in this one time, you should seriously consider what that says about your relationship with her and her parents. i'm not a married dude but I think if you aren't willing to put up with those kinds of compromises for the rest of your life then maybe it's not the best idea to marry her. Otherwise, your fiance needs to stand up to her parents sooner rather than later lest you want her parents looming over you at every turn with potentially ludicrous demands.
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On January 11 2014 10:19 travis wrote: Something that really bothers me is that her sister actually recently got married after rushing into it, and then got a divorce. Firstly, I thought that a divorce "wasn't christian", and yet they didn't disown her. Secondly, maybe she wouldn't have gotten married if she had lived with the guy for a while first. It's so frustrating.
You're saying it yourself. Its stupid to get married before living with the person first. You don't get to know people before you do so. You guys are living in seperate states and probably see eachother rarely, do you realise how very, very different this is to living with somebody? When you live together everything is laid out on the table, everything. There will be things you absolutely hate about her and her the same. You have to be sure you can accept those things and that you guys can actually coexist.
Also, i'd be wary about how much she listens to her family. If she isnt willing to put you first in such an important life decision for you both, you will forever come second to her parents / family, which can end badly. Take it from someone who's suffering the effects of it.
You need to think very hard about what both of these things mean for your relationship and future with this woman.
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@OP - unrelated question: Are you in an overage career field subject to the FRB, or just getting out to get out?
Back on topic; it's not a Christian belief to not move in together until after you are married. It's specific to Catholics and a couple other sects of Christianity that are stricter than most. Based on her parents beliefs, they think it's morally wrong to live together before marriage. Honestly, the best advice I've heard in this whole bunch of responses was to talk to her priest. If he/she okays it, then the parents have to back off because that is the root of their argument against it.
As for whether it's better to live together before or after marriage, I think it just depends on the couple. Some people are easier to read than others, so that you can get a good feeling of what it would be like to live with them ahead of time.
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Talking with her parents and/or pastor (with her involved obviously) may not sway them, but it may allow her to see that she won't get disowned. Maybe her parents say "we strongly disagree with you two living together but we'll love you both just the same." If they are good Christians at all that's what they should say. Maybe they allow you to speed up the wedding plans or something too. I don't think anything bad can really come from having that conversation. Certainly less bad than if you just went without communicating or discussing your thoughts at all and winging it against their wishes or bottling up your feelings and "compromising" by giving in.
Good luck Travis, if you are secure in your love and your plans to spend the rest of your life with this girl, and she with you, then I wish you the best. I'm confident that it'll work out with a little communication.
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WTF, are you marrying her or her parents?
But, to be fair, it's her who should deal with them. They are probably going to treat you with limited trust anyway until your like 10-years husband with perfect relationship rolling on; until then, it's her responsibility to convince them it's all for the best.
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Netherlands6181 Posts
On January 11 2014 16:16 esReveR wrote: @OP - unrelated question: Are you in an overage career field subject to the FRB, or just getting out to get out?
Back on topic; it's not a Christian belief to not move in together until after you are married. It's specific to Catholics and a couple other sects of Christianity that are stricter than most. Based on her parents beliefs, they think it's morally wrong to live together before marriage. Honestly, the best advice I've heard in this whole bunch of responses was to talk to her priest. If he/she okays it, then the parents have to back off because that is the root of their argument against it.
As for whether it's better to live together before or after marriage, I think it just depends on the couple. Some people are easier to read than others, so that you can get a good feeling of what it would be like to live with them ahead of time.
This actually raises the question - is it sleeping together before marriage or living together before marriage that is the root of the issue? Usually it is sleeping together that is the problem, and most modern Christian parents are aware their children will sleep around regardless of belief, it is easy to ignore. Moving in together just publicizes the fact you're sleeping together and opens them to criticism by their peers at church etc.
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How long till she finishes law school?
Sorry for being cynical, but how do you know she isn't the one who came up with the disowning excuse? Are her parents paying for law school? Because really, that's such a pathetic reason for any parents to disown their children over.
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Yeah, unintuitive as it is, living together before you get married actually has higher rates of infidelity and shit. The idea being that people live together, and their lives start to suck, and then they get married because they can't afford/can't be bothered to separate and move out.
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On January 11 2014 18:04 Elurie wrote:How long till she finishes law school? Sorry for being cynical, but how do you know she isn't the one who came up with the disowning excuse? Are her parents paying for law school?  Because really, that's such a pathetic reason for any parents to disown their children over.
disown your own child is the most stupid thing I ever heard...
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hi travis, sorry for your plight i don't want to seem unfair but it seems like you have the answer to your question in your posts
you want to comply with a demand you find unresonable, you love her no matter what, or did i get that part wrong?
what you really want to know is will this "stuborness" you described take its toll on your relationship, will the "differences" you seem to have with her parents always be an issue ..etc
people are singular entities stuck in a group, the couple is a group (your in laws, her friends, her work collegues, your friends, your collegues .. etc)
i personnaly think marriage is best build on a certain type of foundation, others would disagree while holding it in just as much a high esteem as i do
do communicate to your in laws how much this relationship means to you do make your fiance understand how frustrated this all makes you bringing up third parties (religious or not) is up to you to judge if that will help or not
in the end, a relationship with this particular human being is all you want, the means to get it as close to what you want is a seperate issue
bear in mind that you might always have to do stuff against your better judgement to get what you want, like waiting a year to marry and move in, or like confronting this situation to the point that you realize that you will never get her parents blessing whatever you do
good luck, in any case if she loves you all your efforts will be rewarded
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Sounds bad news to me if her parents are affecting her life decisions so heavily. Just plain bad news.
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Made an account and posted this because there's so much hellaciously bad advice in here.
tl; dr version Figure out why you feel the way you feel. Repeat for GF Find acceptable compromise Present united front to parents if needed If the two of you can't do this, maybe reconsider marriage. It doesn't get easier.
+ Show Spoiler +There's a lot of players and unknowns in this, so let's get to it.
First, the parents. Religion aside, do they sincerely believe that not cohabiting is better for a successful marriage? Do they approve of you? In their minds, are they putting your fiancee (and you) first? Maybe they think, "Hey, we didn't live together beforehand and it worked out great for us." If any of these possibilities are true do you really want to say to your fiancee, "Hey, I know those people unconditionally love you and all, but I'm putting my foot down and telling you this is the 21st century and I can't abide their outmoded belief system. You need to ditch them for your own good. Disregard their marriage being successful (if it is). That's all luck and small sample size."
Maybe the parents don't approve of you for whatever reason, so they throw up roadblocks to dissuade you. "Hey, don't get married till you're done with law school. Then if that dude turns out to be a douche, you won't have to depend on him. And no cohabitating. Oh, and real men have a Rollie Fingers mustache and sing in a barbershop quartet, so he needs to get on that. If we think of anything else, we'll let you know." *Parents hi-five each other.* This presents a different challenge. Maybe you want to try to improve their opinion of you. Maybe you say to the gf, "Hey, I'd like you to stand up for me." Maybe you just stick around with your gf and they grudgingly accept you like Meathead from All in the Family.
Or, maybe they're evil control freaks binding her in chains of TEH RELIGION. Maybe they don't want the Joneses next door to know their daughter is a harlot, and that's more important to them than your relationship. Then you're fucked. Run.
Secondly, the gf. What does she believe is best for you guys? You've stating she's willing to live with you, but does she want to? Is she pro, con, or doesn't think it matters either way? Is she afraid of shaming/disappointing her parents due to her love/pride/respect for them? Asserting independence from parents is a big deal for people. Or is it strictly that she doesn't want to be disinherited? There's a significant difference in your ages (for me, anyway. I was much dumber at 24 than 29, but it's different for everyone), and I'm guessing in your life experience as well. So maybe she wants to be able to stand on her own two feet so she goes into marriage with you as an equal and not a junior partner. Maybe she has a religious complex from her upbringing. Any of these possibilities require a different response from the both of you.
Thirdly, you. Why is this so important to you (not saying it should or it shouldn't be, just that it is and you should think about the reason why)? I don't think it's that you want to determine your compatibility because you already proposed, she accepted, and you have a date set. To me, that says you think the two of you are compatible. In ages of yore (eg. when her parents got married), not living together worked out alright often enough. What are your expectations of cohabitating? If she leaves hair in the drain, is that a deal breaker? Do you expect to discover she's a member of the Aryan Nation? Maybe you don't see the sense in paying double for rent when you're broke and going to be married in a year anyway. Or maybe you really love her and want to marry her, but are just a liiiitle bit afraid and need a small bit of affirmation to seal the deal for you. Or maybe your belief structure dictates that living together is a necessary step that civilized people perform on the path to marriage. You've said this is a potential deal breaker, but you haven't said why. That's the more important part.
Staying married requires you to have a good system in place to navigate this sort of thing. You need to be able to constructively get your viewpoint across. In your OP, it sounds like you have the opinion, "I'm right, she needs to man up, meh parents." To me it looks like there's multiple actors behaving irrationally (yourself included). Also, you seem to be conflating compromise to one party giving in to the other.
Anyways, I'd suggest you first figure out your rationale behind your position. What are the positives for your future marriage if you cohabitate? Figure out what's going on in your head. Once you've got that down, go to your gf and talk through her deal. Explain your position. Figure out what she thinks and why she thinks it. The disinherited thing sounds like a smoke screen to me (based on sister's marriage). If she puts you off, maybe talk about how and why you came to the conclusion you did, and why it's important to you. Then explain you want to understand where she's coming from as marriage is srs bzns and married couples deal with this stuff all the time. She might not entirely understand the reasons for her own feelings. When you're both on the same page, if necessary go to her parents. If she likes her parents, show them (and their beliefs) respect. After all, they raised your fiancee so they got something right at some point, even if only by accident.
Compromises - If you guys decide to go ahead and move in together and her parents are dead set against it, maybe throw them a face saving bone. Maintain two apartments, do charity work (that son-in-law shacked up with our daughter, but he works in the church soup kitchen every Monday and Rev Doasisay loves him so whaddaya gonna do), that sort of thing. If gf is against it, maybe start small and escalate. Ask her if you can stay at her place on weekends, and arrange to spend quality time with her in that period. See how that works out, and go from there. Anyways, there's no one right solution. You just need to find something that's workable for the two of you. The parents are irrelevant except insofar as they affect your gf.
Things NOT to do - Don't go to her religious leader (unless solely for the purpose of understanding gf's/parents beliefs). Doing this as an end around of the parents shows you don't respect them. You may not, but don't show it. Even if the dude sides with you, dropping this kind of GOTCHA! on the parents is not going to end well.
Don't try to be 'right'. It doesn't matter if you are and it'll leave the other party feeling bitter towards you. All that matters is that you and gf find a happy medium regardless of how irrational. Explaining to people how stupid they are is seldom a good way of persuading them to your point of view.
Don't be a doormat/ignore it/decide unilaterally. That'll blow up in your face down the road.
Don't take her for granted. Everyone says this, but when you're living with someone for an extended period, it's really, really hard to put into practice. This works both ways, too. Don't let her take you for granted.
Don't ask for marriage advice on TL. Seriously, there's maybe 6 or 7 worthwhile posts in thread, and the rest are awful. I'd guess the majority here are not married, and have not ever seriously considered it in an adult way. People on TL cannot grasp that other people are not themselves and can value different things.
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This might sound stupid, but if you're having relationship trouble and your reaction is to ask the internet, you should probably wait even longer until you marry. Trust her and yourself to work things out and talk to her about that stuff. If you don't have that kind of trust yet, don't marry, and you should probably not yet move in with her either.
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On January 11 2014 16:16 esReveR wrote: @OP - unrelated question: Are you in an overage career field subject to the FRB, or just getting out to get out?
FRB? Are you talking about the retention boards? I am not subject to them because I am only an A1C and I think they only affect SrA+
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I want to thank everyone for the advice and opinions, you've pretty much all been very kind and I can see some of you really put a lot of thought into what you are saying too.
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not living together before marriage is such a horrifically bad idea. the people who say oh if you loved her it wouldnt matter are almost always the same people that waste away for 20 years in a loveless marriage and then become self loathing 50 something singles. hanging out a lot is not the same as living with someone and finding out they're a lazy dumbass who strands you with all of the chores. you find this out and ways to deal with it by living together first.
personally, i would also strongly reconsider where i stand with someone who allows choices in their life be dictated by people other than themselves like that. theres a difference betwen being tight with family and allowing them to manipulate you, using finances as a leash, etc. that should be a big red flag as well
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The shift in the concept of marriage from being a union of two families to a union of two rootless individuals has tended to neither aid the stability nor the general happiness of that institution. Personally I am shocked by the responses thus far elicited.
To consummate a union with someone is to see the world through their eyes, and to treat even their incomprehensible traits with an air of affection. Properly experienced, it ought to enlarge not only our pleasures, but our also our understanding. By opening up the frontiers of the mind to sensations and sympathies not our own, we transcend the limitations of the merely personal, and permit ourselves escape that intellectual loneliness which creates those unstable Byronic figures wallowing away on every corner of the internet.
It has been remarked by some that marriage is unlikely to survive the darkness of inexperience. What it is even more unlikely to survive however, is a self-centred mindset which cannot transgress the boundaries of what is subjectively unreasonable. These customs adhered to by your prospective in-laws are eccentric for our generation. They are not eccentric to humanity as a whole. Follow such advice if you would; the moment you begin to think it your task to seduce a girl away from her family and into your bosom, you have become a predator, and the entire issue is doomed.
QuanticHawk above me highlights the issue perfectly:
"i would also strongly reconsider where i stand with someone who allows choices in their life be dictated by people other than themselves."
A person who values his internal judgement so highly should indeed have second thoughts of undertaking the bondage of marriage.
Getting married without having lived with the girl is like buying a house having only seen pictures of it. You have to understand that a relationship where you are just seeing each other from time to time is very different from one where you are spending the majority of your time together.
Marriage is not shopping. In shopping, when you have chosen a sub-optimal product, you admit your mistake in having bought the product, and you gain market awareness for the benefit of future shopping. Marriage requires a wholly different set of virtues. While it is true that early cohabitation is excellent education in the details of domestic logistics, the stoicism of waiting has to its credit the cultivation of a wholly different virtue, and the only virtue really necessary for a marriage to survive. That virtue is loyalty.
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Yeah. You might want to consider the fact that it sounds like you're thinking of marrying this girl and not considering that you will be marrying her family. Which is fine if you are okay with it, but you will have to take into account not just her desires but also the desires of her parents as it sounds like she is beholden to them. It doesn't just end with moving in together and getting married, that's just the start. Kids, location, career, social groups, activities, etc. are things that can potentially be dictated by her family.
I think the first thing to figure out is how controlling her parents are, and the extent to which she will obey them. The second thing to figure out is what level of control in your life you are okay with giving up to a third party in order to be with this person.
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TLADT24920 Posts
We have a saying in my culture: "when you marry the girl, you are marrying her family". Essentially, you want to be able to get along with her family unless you want to have problems down the road. Obviously, there are exceptions. In this case, I would recommend what was recommended several times so far. Talk to the priest and her family about it. Explain to them the reasoning and concerns that you have if it's not done etc... Also, talk to your gf and see where she stands on the issue.
I understand where the whole 'live together before marriage' comes from, but believe me, you want to be on good terms with her family if you plan to spend the rest of your life with her. As I see it, if you guys have been open and honest about everything to each other and any bad habits etc... then living together after that 1.5 years isn't going to change much. You already know she does x or y thing so it's not a surprise when you see it in person.
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What I've noticed is that people seem to go into this debate with 100% confidence in the assertion that divorce is bad and that a marriage should intend to last forever.
Why is that?
Why is a marriage lasting the most important accomplishment? Shouldn't it be fulfillment and enrichment of the two people in the marriage? I feel like so many marriages fail because instead of focusing on that marriage being mutually beneficial, people focus on the marriage LASTING. Hello, any marriage that is mutually beneficial will last! If a marriage is to one or both people's detriment of course it'll be hard to maintain. And all the strange predictions, statistics, and cultivation of virtues like "loyalty" won't be able to stop it from breaking apart. Marriage does not require a wholly different set of virtues. It just requires a convergence of two sets of self-interested people sharing a mutual benefit in staying together.
So please guys, let's stop talking about how to make a marriage last, and think more about how this marriage will be beneficial to travis and his fiancee and how to remind the fiancee that it's to her benefit.
In short, I don't agree with MoltkeWarding. Marriages founded upon the tenets of self-sacrifice do not last for long.
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You guys (especially her) are still young. What is the rush to be married? I don't understand why people do this. You can be with someone you love very much and/or be engaged and that's fine. Me personally don't plan to be married unless she is like late 20s to 30s at least and we have been together for like 4 years already and decide to start a family or have one of those 'we should just be married already' moments. That kind of easy mutual understanding is the key I think.
2ndly, her parents are retarded. It's almost a necessary part of a relationship to move in together before marriage to make sure things work ok etc so you don't marry the wrong person. I assume they think sex before marriage is wrong and this will allow that to happen or something? What is their reasoning? Have you talked to them about why they hold this belief (Don't go into it with argument mindset, just sit them down and let them break it down for you and don't take it personal. Like you were talking to a 5 year old and having them explain all they know about dinosaurs.)? Perhaps google or ask on a christian type forum to random people who hold same belief? I'm sure reddit has one. Side note: What are her parents like? What do you know about them and her upbringing? Any kind of traumas or issues in the past?
3rd, see a premarital counselor; I'm sure they have one the airforce can provide.
edit- there is merit to what others have said about being psychologically immature. The prefrontal cortex in humans isn't fully developed until around age 25 (this is the part of the brain that deals with impulsiveness, sociopathic tendencies, etc.) You can read more about here and other places http://teenbrain.drugfree.org/science/behavior.html
PS- Her parents seem like abusive, control freaks. And the reason her sister jumped into a marriage and quickly divorced is probably from co-dependency issues. I would be very wary of this whole situation.
It's worth a shot to bluff though. Threaten to call the whole thing off because of this shit. If the bluff fails it's actually a short pain for a win in the long run anyways (because she obviously isn't in it for the right reasons). Also if it does fail, don't think of it as time invested, think of it as time wasted (because that's what it is/was).
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Marriages work based on the individual not whether you lived together or not beforehand. Especially because the general scientific belief is that cohabitation tends to lead to a higher divorce rate than not. I'm married and personally it worked out without much cohabitation.
Honestly rather than consulting teamliquid first, it's probably a better call to talk to her parents first? You may try getting your folks in to talk to them as well. Take a look at all your options first.
Feel free to pm me about marriage life, my experiences, etc. I don't really have interest in "debating" in blogs what works and what not.
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On January 11 2014 07:39 travis wrote: Ok, I will try to keep this short...
I will probably be separating from the air force early and going back to school. I want to go move in with her, she is my fiance so it seems not only reasonable but important to do so. She says she would love for me to move in with her but that her parents will not allow it because of religious beliefs(very christian). I think this is incredibly stupid.
...
What do you guys think about this? Curious- do you think it's incredibly stupid that they are religious, but think what they're doing makes sense in light of their religiosity, or do you think that even though they're religious, it's stupid to follow through with the law (assuming that is Christian law)?
The reason I ask is because if it's the latter, I may be able to give one religious person's perspective on the issue (I'm an Orthodox Jew), if you're interested in hearing it. If it's the former...I doubt that argument is worth either of our times :D.
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On January 11 2014 08:19 Chairman Ray wrote: If her parents looks strongly down upon moving in before marriage, I would assume that they are not too fond of divorce either. There's always a danger that after moving in with someone you find you aren't as compatible as you thought you were, and you really don't want this to occur after marriage.
What I would do is to move in together don't tell her parents. This may or may not be a good idea for you though. In my personal experience, my parents are extremely traditional as well and enforce arbitrary rules on me just because they are rules they grew up with and not for any logical reason. I just hide all details of my relationship from my parents and everyone is happy that way. If I get disowned for it, it's a decision that was solely made by my parents and 100% their fault. Perhaps your fiancé isn't as okay with being disowned as I am. If you can reliably move in together and keep it from her parents, might not be a bad thing to consider.
EDIT: I think packrat's idea of speaking with their religious leader first is actually a good idea. Your lack of life experience is troubling.
Don't hide anything from anyone, that's a horrible way to live. Be open, honest, and initiate a conversation with the parents. Explain how you understand your concerns, highlight your concerns/desires and have a rational conversation with them. If they're not willing to listen, do you want these people actively involved in your life as in-laws? Don't think they won't be -- their "baby" is 24 and they're still trying to run the show.
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Katowice25012 Posts
On January 12 2014 12:55 Kaeru wrote: Good luck and please don't brainwash your future children into christianity (read: stupidity).
Don't do this. It's irrelevant, going to the derail the thread, and makes you look like an idiot.
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On January 12 2014 07:36 MoltkeWarding wrote: The shift in the concept of marriage from being a union of two families to a union of two rootless individuals has tended to neither aid the stability nor the general happiness of that institution. Personally I am shocked by the responses thus far elicited.
To consummate a union with someone is to see the world through their eyes, and to treat even their incomprehensible traits with an air of affection. Properly experienced, it ought to enlarge not only our pleasures, but our also our understanding. By opening up the frontiers of the mind to sensations and sympathies not our own, we transcend the limitations of the merely personal, and permit ourselves escape that intellectual loneliness which creates those unstable Byronic figures wallowing away on every corner of the internet.
That's some really flowery language but I don't think the point that you seem to be trying to make is reasonable. First of all I don't find this incomprehensible, I think I understand it just fine. I just think it is irrational. Yes that is my opinion, so what is the alternative to standing up for what I believe? Blind acceptance of things I don't like? What are you even trying to say here?
It has been remarked by some that marriage is unlikely to survive the darkness of inexperience. What it is even more unlikely to survive however, is a self-centred mindset which cannot transgress the boundaries of what is subjectively unreasonable. These customs adhered to by your prospective in-laws are eccentric for our generation. They are not eccentric to humanity as a whole. Follow such advice if you would; the moment you begin to think it your task to seduce a girl away from her family and into your bosom, you have become a predator, and the entire issue is doomed.
How they are viewed by humanity is irrelevant. Seduce a girl away from her family? I am not taking her anywhere. According to you I seem to be the only person that has to be held accountable for anything that happens.
On January 12 2014 08:38 ZeaL. wrote: Yeah. You might want to consider the fact that it sounds like you're thinking of marrying this girl and not considering that you will be marrying her family. Which is fine if you are okay with it, but you will have to take into account not just her desires but also the desires of her parents as it sounds like she is beholden to them. It doesn't just end with moving in together and getting married, that's just the start. Kids, location, career, social groups, activities, etc. are things that can potentially be dictated by her family.
The whole "also marrying her family" thing isn't a view I hold in a way that is so absolute like that. However she does have that view to an extent, and I respect that. But I expect there will be a certain amount of compromise there.
On January 12 2014 11:19 soon.Cloak wrote:
Curious- do you think it's incredibly stupid that they are religious, but think what they're doing makes sense in light of their religiosity, or do you think that even though they're religious, it's stupid to follow through with the law (assuming that is Christian law)?
The reason I ask is because if it's the latter, I may be able to give one religious person's perspective on the issue (I'm an Orthodox Jew), if you're interested in hearing it. If it's the former...I doubt that argument is worth either of our times :D.
I am not going to go into my opinion on their religion. The reason that they don't want us to live together is fear of premarital sex, im sure. And that is very silly and stupid, I am sure you can think of some reasons why that is silly and stupid.
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Parents just hoping she meeting someone more to their standards (doctor, dentist, etc) before they cave in and let her marry you.
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On January 12 2014 15:12 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 12 2014 11:19 soon.Cloak wrote: Curious- do you think it's incredibly stupid that they are religious, but think what they're doing makes sense in light of their religiosity, or do you think that even though they're religious, it's stupid to follow through with the law (assuming that is Christian law)?
The reason I ask is because if it's the latter, I may be able to give one religious person's perspective on the issue (I'm an Orthodox Jew), if you're interested in hearing it. If it's the former...I doubt that argument is worth either of our times :D. I am not going to go into my opinion on their religion. The reason that they don't want us to live together is fear of premarital sex, im sure. And that is very silly and stupid, I am sure you can think of some reasons why that is silly and stupid. This, my friend, is an extremely naive pov. They too were young, once. And
On January 12 2014 20:52 Burrfoot wrote: Parents just hoping she meeting someone more to their standards (doctor, dentist, etc) before they cave in and let her marry you.
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I am not going to say you are wrong, but don't throw out your assumptions like you actually know please.
And how is their fear of premarital sex not stupid. Do you think us not living together would stop premarital sex? Oh, or are you just saying it is naive for me to think this is actually their motive? Because I think I know them better then you
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On January 12 2014 20:52 Burrfoot wrote: Parents just hoping she meeting someone more to their standards (doctor, dentist, etc) before they cave in and let her marry you. I really really disagree with this. This can be one explanation but a better and more possible one is just so that they can get to know u better before you two got so far ahead that when things go south, while you can feel completely fine since you are not against premarital sex, she and her family have to live with this fact forever
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does your gf know that living together first is very important to you, and what does she say about it
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yes, but she is afraid her parents will disown her and that they won't help pay for our wedding (but her primary concern is that her parents will disown her). she says she wants to live together too.
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On January 13 2014 00:25 travis wrote:I am not going to say you are wrong, but don't throw out your assumptions like you actually know please. And how is their fear of premarital sex not stupid. Do you think us not living together would stop premarital sex? Oh, or are you just saying it is naive for me to think this is actually their motive? Because I think I know them better then you  Well what I wanted to say is that they most likely know that you are already having sex. So not living together won't actually stop you from having sex. So there is at least a possibility that at least one of them has other motives.
And knowing them better and knowing them are still two different things.
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Why would you want to get married in the first place? But I suppose that's an American thing.
As for the question at hand: convince either her, her parents or both that it's a good idea to live together before doing anything stupid as getting married. If you can't live together it's hard to stay married. The probability of divorce goes up (from the already high % it starts at) by getting married before you live together.
As for the disowning: If that happens (and if it goes, they're bad parents anyway), screw their money. No need for some kind of extravagent wedding.
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She's a Christian. She has strong ties to her (I presume intact) family. She respects the wishes of her mother and father. All of the above are marks in the "quality wife material" column. They are valuable rarities in the dating pool these days, and you ought to feel a sense of accomplishment rather than frustration that you've managed to attract someone who understands the sort of familial dynamics that make for stable, long-term relationships.
On top of all that, cohabitation is a piss poor idea for anyone anywhere who takes the idea of marriage seriously.
The play here is to respect the wishes of her family, and live alone until you guys get married. I would not bullshit a 20000+ post fellow TLer. It's that simple.
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On January 13 2014 15:46 HULKAMANIA wrote: On top of all that, cohabitation is a piss poor idea for anyone anywhere who takes the idea of marriage seriously.
The play here is to respect the wishes of her family, and live alone until you guys get married. I would not bullshit a 20000+ post fellow TLer. It's that simple. Yeah, it's totally better to find out if you can live together after getting married, because you can always divorce, eh?
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No. You can't divorce. That shouldn't be on the table.
If you want a reliable marriage, you ought to find someone who treats it as a sober, irrevocable vow made before family and God and you ought to do likewise. Cohabitation beforehand has nothing to do with that and in fact tips your hand that you're weighing your romance options like a tween rather than directing your life like an adult. If you want a precious little relationship that you're allowed to opt out of as soon as you start to get sad feelings, then marriage isn't for you anyway. Go ahead and live together.
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Remind their parents that you don't need to live together to have sex.
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So you're saying it's preferable to live unhappily together than to break some ridiculously unrealistic vow before an imagined higher power in case cohabitation turns out to be less than optimal? The idiom 'pig in a poke' should be very applicable here.
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If you lack the basic capacity to keep a promise even if it makes you (gasp!) unhappy from time to time to do so, then you're not adult enough for a commitment like marriage. But travis is asking questions about the lead up to his marriage, so I assume he has or likes to think he has that capacity.
You already said you don't really get marriage. That much is obvious.
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On January 13 2014 18:53 HULKAMANIA wrote: If you lack the basic capacity to keep a promise even if it makes you (gasp!) unhappy from time to time to do so, then you're not adult enough for a commitment like marriage. I thought marriage was "until death do us part". That's a long time to be unhappy.
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On January 13 2014 18:55 sumsaR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 18:53 HULKAMANIA wrote: If you lack the basic capacity to keep a promise even if it makes you (gasp!) unhappy from time to time to do so, then you're not adult enough for a commitment like marriage. I thought marriage was "until death do us part". That's a long time to be unhappy. Don't worry then, little buddy. No one's going to make you enter into that big, scary state of matrimony! You're allowed to stay single or serial cohabit or marry and then divorce do whatever it is that you need to do to coddle your delicate emotions throughout your entire natural born life.
But once again this is a discussion about a man who is already intent on marriage. If that gives you the vapors, you don't have to stick around.
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On January 13 2014 18:41 HULKAMANIA wrote: Cohabitation beforehand has nothing to do with that and in fact tips your hand that you're weighing your romance options like a tween rather than directing your life like an adult.
lol
living together to make sure the together for life thing is 100% what you want is for tweens now?
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yo, I don't think people need to be this aggressive, but HULKMANIA you have to realize that you're presenting a viewpoint that is pretty contradictory to the general views of society at the moment. Cohabitating isn't for everyone, but the view that living together before getting married is silly is a bit out of style.
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On January 13 2014 15:46 HULKAMANIA wrote: On top of all that, cohabitation is a piss poor idea for anyone anywhere who takes the idea of marriage seriously.
Not sure if naive or dense...
What happens if you get married then realize you are totally incompatible living together. I know for a fact that people are completely different when you live with them. When you aren't living together, you have your downtime so you can always be on your game when you are together. This doesn't happen when you're living together, you see each other every day whether you like it or not.
Regardless, you sound super Christian so I'm not going to bother arguing with you.
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On January 14 2014 04:38 chadissilent wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 15:46 HULKAMANIA wrote: On top of all that, cohabitation is a piss poor idea for anyone anywhere who takes the idea of marriage seriously.
What happens if you get married then realize you are totally incompatible living together. I know for a fact that people are completely different when you live with them. When you aren't living together, you have your downtime so you can always be on your game when you are together. This doesn't happen when you're living together, you see each other every day whether you like it or not.
exactly. seeing each other several times a week and even sleeping over often isnt the same as living together. all the love in the world cant fix incompatibility.
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On January 13 2014 18:53 HULKAMANIA wrote: If you lack the basic capacity to keep a promise even if it makes you (gasp!) unhappy from time to time to do so, then you're not adult enough for a commitment like marriage. But travis is asking questions about the lead up to his marriage, so I assume he has or likes to think he has that capacity.
You already said you don't really get marriage. That much is obvious. Over time people have decided that it's not really worth both of you being unhappy for the rest of your lives just because you promised each other that you would live together for the rest of your lives. Marriage is a contract, and if you both want out then you should get a divorce. There is no inherent value to keeping your promise since your promise was to the other person who also wants to get out.
A more christian interpretation would be that your promise was also to god and that you should keep it for the sake of that promise. While it's a valid view, that's not how people generally think of marriage these days.
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im less interested in hulkamania rambling on about divorce and more interested in hearing about how he decided that living together before you decide to make that promose for life is a bad idea.
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On January 14 2014 04:57 QuanticHawk wrote: im less interested in hulkamania rambling on about divorce and more interested in hearing about how he decided that living together before you decide to make that promose for life is a bad idea. Religious brainwashing? Only thing I can think of in this context.
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On January 13 2014 15:46 HULKAMANIA wrote: She's a Christian. She has strong ties to her (I presume intact) family. She respects the wishes of her mother and father. All of the above are marks in the "quality wife material" column. They are valuable rarities in the dating pool these days, and you ought to feel a sense of accomplishment rather than frustration that you've managed to attract someone who understands the sort of familial dynamics that make for stable, long-term relationships.
On top of all that, cohabitation is a piss poor idea for anyone anywhere who takes the idea of marriage seriously.
The play here is to respect the wishes of her family, and live alone until you guys get married. I would not bullshit a 20000+ post fellow TLer. It's that simple.
Only part of his post I agree with
I think marriage should be with the intent of starting a family, and being forever, so I would make damn sure she is the right one.
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On January 14 2014 04:33 QuanticHawk wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 18:41 HULKAMANIA wrote: Cohabitation beforehand has nothing to do with that and in fact tips your hand that you're weighing your romance options like a tween rather than directing your life like an adult. lol living together to make sure the together for life thing is 100% what you want is for tweens now?
Absolutely.
It's a silly test-drive mentality, and it's a fundamental misconception about marriage, which is why people end up talking about completely irrelevant, eHarmony ideas like "compatibility." The fiction there is that you can find someone with whom you are "compatible" and thus ensure that staying together for life becomes an easy (or at least an easier) accomplishment. Wishful thinking at best, at worst the sort of "I know my soulmate is out there!" nonsense that fills so many adolescent diaries, conversations, and blogs.
The fact of the matter is that whatever notion of compatibility that you've cooked up is next to worthless when it comes to making a marriage work over the life-long term. You will change dramatically and in unforeseeable ways. Your wife will change dramatically and in unforeseeable ways. And all of your careful, risk-management calculations that you charted up beforehand will come to nothing. There is no marriage that doesn't go through periods, sometimes long periods, of miserable grind—times when you regret ever getting yourself involved in such a mess to begin with. What sustains people during these times is their commitment to that "unrealistic" covenant that they entered into, a sense of loyalty, a sense of duty, a sense of love that goes beyond the feelgood pop-psychology platitudes that came over you in the early, heady days of misguided cohabitation.
You achieve success in and mastery over your marriage in the same way you achieve mastery over anything else, hard work and self-sacrifice and a refusal to quit. As Chesterton said, "The man who makes a vow makes an appointment with himself at some distant time or place. The danger of it is that himself should not keep the appointment. And in modern times this terror of one's self, of the weakness and mutability of one's self, has perilously increased, and is the real basis of the objection to vows of any kind."
If you want to get married and to stay married, you should work on becoming the sort of man who can withstand the proverbial slings and arrows of fortune and still make that appointment with himself, which is simply to be on his or by his wife's deathbed and to have had and held her in richer or poorer, better or worse, sickness or health through all the years intervening between that time and the time of the vow. The idea that you can bank of making a good choice by dipping your toe into the waters of the relationship before plunging is not only infantile but toxic to the qualities that man needs to cultivate in order to maintain a vow. It's absolutely a fear of one's own mutability, a little nagging doubt that a few years down the line you don't be as happy in the relationship as you are now. Confidence in a situation of risk is the essence of mature masculinity. Worrying that you might actually end up pissing the bed is the essence of boyhood.
I'm not saying anything that's particularly new, either. It's received wisdom that would have been recognized as such even a few generations ago. It only seems strange now because it contradicts all the silly ideas about marriage that have emerged like flies around the corpse of the institution in a time of unparalleled rates of divorce and refusal to marry.
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On January 13 2014 19:01 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 18:55 sumsaR wrote:On January 13 2014 18:53 HULKAMANIA wrote: If you lack the basic capacity to keep a promise even if it makes you (gasp!) unhappy from time to time to do so, then you're not adult enough for a commitment like marriage. I thought marriage was "until death do us part". That's a long time to be unhappy. Don't worry then, little buddy. No one's going to make you enter into that big, scary state of matrimony! You're allowed to stay single or serial cohabit or marry and then divorce do whatever it is that you need to do to coddle your delicate emotions throughout your entire natural born life. But once again this is a discussion about a man who is already intent on marriage. If that gives you the vapors, you don't have to stick around.
There is so much wrong with the entire way you think I'm not even going to bother trying. All I will say is I feel sorry for whatever girl is hitched to you.
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On January 14 2014 08:15 SongByungWewt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2014 19:01 HULKAMANIA wrote:On January 13 2014 18:55 sumsaR wrote:On January 13 2014 18:53 HULKAMANIA wrote: If you lack the basic capacity to keep a promise even if it makes you (gasp!) unhappy from time to time to do so, then you're not adult enough for a commitment like marriage. I thought marriage was "until death do us part". That's a long time to be unhappy. Don't worry then, little buddy. No one's going to make you enter into that big, scary state of matrimony! You're allowed to stay single or serial cohabit or marry and then divorce do whatever it is that you need to do to coddle your delicate emotions throughout your entire natural born life. But once again this is a discussion about a man who is already intent on marriage. If that gives you the vapors, you don't have to stick around. There is so much wrong with the entire way you think I'm not even going to bother trying. All I will say is I feel sorry for whatever girl is hitched to you.
Excellent. I'm in the trenches, anyway, so you'll excuse my skepticism that you could tell me anything about women or marriage that I don't already know.
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Yes, you seem to be quite the expert on misery for the sake of abstract principles. Good luck with that.
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It's how you move the chains. There's nothing ennobling or edifying about pain-avoidance. Any animal will do it.
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Actually, intelligent people learn ways to problem solve instead of martyring themselves for 40+ years. They know how to detect and then walk around a bear trap. Whereas a fanatical maniac goes and stomps his foot all over it so that the steel jaws snap shut over his leg, then slavers at the mouth while screaming #dedication, #perseverance, #marriage #bloodsweatandtears.
But, it's okay. The world needs diversity. It wouldn't be anywhere as fun without the self-righteous masochists.
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Although it might be to you, it's not a mystery to me where your fear of marriage comes from. But the fact that you conceive of marriage as a potential bear trap that you have to approach with caution is very telling.
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That's the gist of this thread, in fact. A lot of people viscerally unsettled by the thought of marriage offering advice to travis on how to enter into one in the most timid, gradual, risk-averse way possible.
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Well it seems a bit incongrous to say on one hand that marriage is a sacred bond that can't be broken, but on the other hand you shouldn't try to be certain as to whether you want to marry someone. You're basically saying to jump in without first checking the depth, and a lot of people get hurt that way.
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On January 14 2014 09:33 packrat386 wrote: Well it seems a bit incongrous to say on one hand that marriage is a sacred bond that can't be broken, but on the other hand you shouldn't try to be certain as to whether you want to marry someone. You're basically saying to jump in without first checking the depth, and a lot of people get hurt that way.
You're correct that advising someone to jump into marriage without serious prior consideration would be stupid. Agreed. But that wouldn't be my advice. I think my posts in this thread should be understood in the context of the OP, where the couple is already engaged and presumably that serious prior consideration has already been made. He's wondering if holding out for cohabitation despite the wishes of his would-be wife's family is a necessary or helpful thing to do. I'm saying that no, it's definitely not.
My premise there is pretty simple and it's that the mindset behind "cohabitation before marriage" is magical thinking at worst and at best adversarial to the cultivation of the sort of committed, duty-oriented, mature mindset that creates successful marriages in the long term. But that isn't to say that you ought to pledge your undying commitment to just any female off the street.
I haven't offered much general advice on how young men ought to go about evaluating potential wives, but I would agree with you emphatically that a young man ought to reach a point of genuine conviction before he goes through with marriage. I have plenty to say, as you might imagine, on the subject of picking out a suitable wife, but I was only giving an answer to the question that was asked, not an all-purpose guide on how to approach marriage.
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I don't see why it's adversarial to a committed mature relationship to read the fine print first. You're about to commit to something for the rest of your life, cohabiting beforehand allows you a sneak peak at what you're actually committing to. Luke many people have said, living with someone is a huge change, why pass up an opportunity for a trial run?
Also not all marriages are between young men and young women, but I'm guessing you're opposed to that too.
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On January 14 2014 10:12 packrat386 wrote: I don't see why it's adversarial to a committed mature relationship to read the fine print first. You're about to commit to something for the rest of your life, cohabiting beforehand allows you a sneak peak at what you're actually committing to. Luke many people have said, living with someone is a huge change, why pass up an opportunity for a trial run?
I don't want to retread a lot of the things that I've elaborated previously, but the long and the short of it is that cohabitation doesn't provide you with any real clue as to what married life will be two, five, ten, twenty years down the road and so what fine print you read during that time is subject to radical alteration. Banking on that reading to guide an irrevocable choice is short-term thinking. It also is predicated on the notion, like I pointed out, that contemporary notions of compatibility are crucial considerations in the first place and thus wildly exaggerates the importance thereof to the detriment of other more germane considerations. It also betrays a fear that you're going to have regrets or that your feelings will change during the course of the relationship. You will and they will so any arrangement that encourages you to proceed only in the absence of regret or misery actually primes you to flinch from doing the hard work that a llifelong marriage requires from time to time. It's wrongheaded on any number of levels.
Also not all marriages are between young men and young women, but I'm guessing you're opposed to that too. I'm not categorically opposed to people waiting until later in life to get married. But I do think that ideally a man ought to marry in his early twenties and to a girl a few years his junior.
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On January 14 2014 08:41 HULKAMANIA wrote: That's the gist of this thread, in fact. A lot of people viscerally unsettled by the thought of marriage offering advice to travis on how to enter into one in the most timid, gradual, risk-averse way possible.
Yes, it's insane to be cautious about forming a lifelong bond with someone before figuring out whether or not they're suitable. It's far more rational to dive head-first and just grit your teeth and suffer whatever slings and arrows of fortune come your way. You know why? Because that's what marriage requires! A good tough Christian manly man!
Compatibility, common interests, shared goals, all of that shit is meaningless. People always change, so you end up with someone you didn't want after a few years anyway. It really doesn't matter who you marry. The important thing is to just take whatever comes your way and learn to accept/tolerate it because you made a promise under God and you will keep that promise no matter how awful it makes your life.
The entire problem with your position is it lacks any nuance. You come down with these heavy-handed absolutes that reflect terribly on your credibility. Learn to take a step back and understand there is more than one solution or way to go about life and marriage. Your way of thinking is what leads to so many divorces, not the mentality of wanting better compatibility. Who the hell wants to view marriage as some kind of prison where you're locked in forever because at some moment in time you thought it was a good idea to put a ring on it? In what other area of life is anyone so ridiculously irrational? The only other aspect of life I can think of where people will grit their teeth and bear it like that is when it comes to their children. Oh, and religion.
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On January 14 2014 10:42 SongByungWewt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 08:41 HULKAMANIA wrote: That's the gist of this thread, in fact. A lot of people viscerally unsettled by the thought of marriage offering advice to travis on how to enter into one in the most timid, gradual, risk-averse way possible. Yes, it's insane to be cautious about forming a lifelong bond with someone before figuring out whether or not they're suitable. It's far more rational to dive head-first and just grit your teeth and suffer whatever slings and arrows of fortune come your way. You know why? Because that's what marriage requires! A good tough Christian manly man! Compatibility, common interests, shared goals, all of that shit is meaningless. People always change, so you end up with someone you didn't want after a few years anyway. It really doesn't matter who you marry. The important thing is to just take whatever comes your way and learn to accept/tolerate it because you made a promise under God and you will keep that promise no matter how awful it makes your life. The entire problem with your position is it lacks any nuance. You come down with these heavy-handed absolutes that reflect terribly on your credibility. Learn to take a step back and understand there is more than one solution or way to go about life and marriage. Your way of thinking is what leads to so many divorces, not the mentality of wanting better compatibility. Who the hell wants to view marriage as some kind of prison where you're locked in forever because at some moment in time you thought it was a good idea to put a ring on it? In what other area of life is anyone so ridiculously irrational? The only other aspect of life I can think of where people will grit their teeth and bear it like that is when it comes to their children. Oh, and religion. The question in the OP doesn't require much nuance. If travis wants to know, "Should we cohabit?" the answer is "No." That un-nuanced answer serves every time someone raises the "Should we cohabit?" question. In the same way that it serves every time someone asks "Does a triangle have four sides?"
It would be useful, though, I think to compare our two approaches to marriage more generally. And I furthermore think that, your fulminations to the contrary aside, mine is actually the more sophisticated, more practical, more worldly approach. You seem to argue that, by dint of intelligent planning, you can meaningfully avoid misery in a marriage. I say that's so much wishful thinking. I say that periods of misery are inherent in even the best and most stable marriages and so one ought to chasten one's expectations accordingly and prepare one's self to endure such times by cultivating at the very least the sort of pragmatic stoicism one needs to get through tough patches. You attempt to avoid pain, which is patently futile. I attempt to prepare for it and make use of it. I'll leave it as an exercise to the audience to decide, in their quiet moments, whose mentality is most divorced (hah!) from reality.
You'll never undertake any endeavor worth undertaking that doesn't require you at several different points to grit your teeth and bear it. Get your head out of the clouds.
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On January 14 2014 10:34 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +Also not all marriages are between young men and young women, but I'm guessing you're opposed to that too. I'm not categorically opposed to people waiting until later in life to get married. But I do think that ideally a man ought to marry in his early twenties and to a girl a few years his junior. I'm fairly certain he was refering to same-sex marriages, but I guess you understood that and chose to ignore it.
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You keep on digging a deeper hole for yourself, and it's because you are so stuck on outlining the dimensions of the box you can't even conceive of anything outside that box.
Here is an idea for you: monogamous, lifelong marriage is not the absolute goal for all relationships nor is it the only way to have a fulfilling personal life. If that premise is true, then your entire argument goes out the window. Are you prepared to argue against that premise? If not, then you should stop talking down to others.
Also, yours is one of the crudest, least practical, and most provincial of approaches. Your argument is once again so horribly bad because you lack in nuance. There is a huge difference between hoping to avoid any and all misery because you think you can find the right partner with which to have a 100% perfect, flawless marriage and trying to find a decently compatible/tolerable spouse that you think you'll have a good shot at going the distance with.
Everyone in this thread who advocates for cohabitation is doing so on the premise of trying to find a partner who you can reasonably get along with.
Whereas you are here babbling your head off with nonsensical crap about how cohabitation is a terrible idea because your wife is going to be a miserable troll anyway, so you might as well learn to grin and bear it.
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For a guy who's beating the nuance drum so energetically, you don't seem to have all that subtle an understanding of what this thread is about. Who's arguing whether or not "monogamous, lifelong marriage" is the "absolute goal for all relationships"? No one. That's going on in your angry little head.
This thread is in response to travis's question about whether or not he should make an issue of pre-marital cohabitation even though it will upset his future in-laws. The answer to that is certainly a negative, and I went so far as to argue that anyone who takes the idea of marriage seriously should avoid cohabitation as well, for reasons that I've already spelled out a few times. But that's it. That's the parameters of my argument.
I've said this already: if the idea of a lifelong marriage doesn't appeal to you, that's fine. Do what suits you. No one's got a gun to your head. But if the idea of lifelong marriage does appeal to you, you'd do well to heed my advice.
As I explained to packrat, I haven't really gone into the steps that a young man should take to find a woman who he has "a good shot of going the distance with," and, again, that's because travis has already found such a woman. It's outside the bounds of our conversation. However, if you would like to hear my thoughts about how to choose an appropriate wife, start a blog thread. I'll be glad to help you out.
And one more thing. The argument has never been that your wife is going to be a miserable troll no matter what you do. Nuance, buddy, nuance! The argument has been that there will—inevitably—be trying times where you feel like she is.
Does that worry you?
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On January 14 2014 11:40 sumsaR wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 10:34 HULKAMANIA wrote:Also not all marriages are between young men and young women, but I'm guessing you're opposed to that too. I'm not categorically opposed to people waiting until later in life to get married. But I do think that ideally a man ought to marry in his early twenties and to a girl a few years his junior. I'm fairly certain he was refering to same-sex marriages, but I guess you understood that and chose to ignore it. Are you asking if I'm opposed to same-sex marriage? In a word? Highly.
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On January 14 2014 12:07 HULKAMANIA wrote: For a guy who's beating the nuance drum so energetically, you don't seem to have all that subtle an understanding of what this thread is about. Who's arguing whether or not "monogamous, lifelong marriage" is the "absolute goal for all relationships"? No one. That's going on in your angry little head.
This thread is in response to travis's question about whether or not he should make an issue of pre-marital cohabitation even though it will upset his future in-laws. The answer to that is certainly a negative, and I went so far as to argue that anyone who takes the idea of marriage seriously should avoid cohabitation as well, for reasons that I've already spelled out a few times. But that's it. That's the parameters of my argument.
I've said this already: if the idea of a lifelong marriage doesn't appeal to you, that's fine. Do what suits you. No one's got a gun to your head. But if the idea of lifelong marriage does appeal to you, you'd do well to heed my advice.
As I explained to packrat, I haven't really gone into the steps that a young man should take to find a woman who he has "a good shot of going the distance with," and, again, that's because travis has already found such a woman. It's outside the bounds of our conversation. However, if you would like to hear my thoughts about how to choose an appropriate wife, start a blog thread. I'll be glad to help you out.
And one more thing. The argument has never been that your wife is going to be a miserable troll no matter what you do. Nuance, buddy, nuance! The argument has been that there will—inevitably—be trying times where you feel like she is.
Does that worry you?
Your first post: "On top of all that, cohabitation is a piss poor idea for anyone anywhere who takes the idea of marriage seriously."
Analysis: Zero justifications given. Just a flat out statement, followed by some idiotic endorsement about not wanting to bs a 20K poster.
Your second post: "If you want a reliable marriage, you ought to find someone who treats it as a sober, irrevocable vow made before family and God and you ought to do likewise. Cohabitation beforehand has nothing to do with that and in fact tips your hand that you're weighing your romance options like a tween rather than directing your life like an adult. If you want a precious little relationship that you're allowed to opt out of as soon as you start to get sad feelings, then marriage isn't for you anyway."
Analysis: Your reasoning is "only marry people who think marriage is a lifelong contract that can never be broken. If you cohabit before marriage and find some flaws, it won't make any difference. Because you shouldn't let flaws deter you from marriage."
Rebuttal: First off, travis didn't ask how to have a reliable marriage. He asked about how to get the girl to agree to cohabiting and whether or not it was a reasonable position to pressure her about it. So you are way more off topic than anyone with your blathering about lifelong marriage, God, etc.
Secondly, your point about opting out as soon as you start to get sad feelings is completely irrational. And this is the point we began to debate over these last few posts, which you are now backing out of because you can't defend it.
So, no, the argument has not been "there will be trying times when you feel like she is."
Your argument has been "You made a vow to God, so you have to stick with her no matter what." That's what a "man" would do.
And then you elaborated upon it with a bunch of really lousy religious/moralistic rhetoric along with a heavy dose of obnoxious condescension calling other people "boys" and "little buddy" and gasping dramatically. Which, btw, did a great job of showing your maturity level. My advice, you should really start to use your brain more and rely less on tired old paradigms like the "good Christian man."
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On January 14 2014 12:16 HULKAMANIA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 11:40 sumsaR wrote:On January 14 2014 10:34 HULKAMANIA wrote:Also not all marriages are between young men and young women, but I'm guessing you're opposed to that too. I'm not categorically opposed to people waiting until later in life to get married. But I do think that ideally a man ought to marry in his early twenties and to a girl a few years his junior. I'm fairly certain he was refering to same-sex marriages, but I guess you understood that and chose to ignore it. Are you asking if I'm opposed to same-sex marriage? In a word? Highly. thanks for letting me know not to waste my time.
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On January 14 2014 13:19 SongByungWewt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 12:07 HULKAMANIA wrote: For a guy who's beating the nuance drum so energetically, you don't seem to have all that subtle an understanding of what this thread is about. Who's arguing whether or not "monogamous, lifelong marriage" is the "absolute goal for all relationships"? No one. That's going on in your angry little head.
This thread is in response to travis's question about whether or not he should make an issue of pre-marital cohabitation even though it will upset his future in-laws. The answer to that is certainly a negative, and I went so far as to argue that anyone who takes the idea of marriage seriously should avoid cohabitation as well, for reasons that I've already spelled out a few times. But that's it. That's the parameters of my argument.
I've said this already: if the idea of a lifelong marriage doesn't appeal to you, that's fine. Do what suits you. No one's got a gun to your head. But if the idea of lifelong marriage does appeal to you, you'd do well to heed my advice.
As I explained to packrat, I haven't really gone into the steps that a young man should take to find a woman who he has "a good shot of going the distance with," and, again, that's because travis has already found such a woman. It's outside the bounds of our conversation. However, if you would like to hear my thoughts about how to choose an appropriate wife, start a blog thread. I'll be glad to help you out.
And one more thing. The argument has never been that your wife is going to be a miserable troll no matter what you do. Nuance, buddy, nuance! The argument has been that there will—inevitably—be trying times where you feel like she is.
Does that worry you? Your first post: "On top of all that, cohabitation is a piss poor idea for anyone anywhere who takes the idea of marriage seriously." Analysis: Zero justifications given. Just a flat out statement, followed by some idiotic endorsement about not wanting to bs a 20K poster. Your second post: "If you want a reliable marriage, you ought to find someone who treats it as a sober, irrevocable vow made before family and God and you ought to do likewise. Cohabitation beforehand has nothing to do with that and in fact tips your hand that you're weighing your romance options like a tween rather than directing your life like an adult. If you want a precious little relationship that you're allowed to opt out of as soon as you start to get sad feelings, then marriage isn't for you anyway." Analysis: Your reasoning is "only marry people who think marriage is a lifelong contract that can never be broken. If you cohabit before marriage and find some flaws, it won't make any difference. Because you shouldn't let flaws deter you from marriage." Rebuttal: First off, travis didn't ask how to have a reliable marriage. He asked about how to get the girl to agree to cohabiting and whether or not it was a reasonable position to pressure her about it. So you are way more off topic than anyone with your blathering about lifelong marriage, God, etc. Secondly, your point about opting out as soon as you start to get sad feelings is completely irrational. And this is the point we began to debate over these last few posts, which you are now backing out of because you can't defend it. So, no, the argument has not been "there will be trying times when you feel like she is." Your argument has been "You made a vow to God, so you have to stick with her no matter what." That's what a "man" would do. And then you elaborated upon it with a bunch of really lousy religious/moralistic rhetoric along with a heavy dose of obnoxious condescension calling other people "boys" and "little buddy" and gasping dramatically. Which, btw, did a great job of showing your maturity level. My advice, you should really start to use your brain more and rely less on tired old paradigms like the "good Christian man."
I don't see how your summary and "analysis" of my argument thus far corresponds at all with what I've been saying in this thread. It looks like you rely a little bit on quotation, a little bit on assertion contrary to fact, and a fair bit more on fabrication from scratch, culminating in a puzzling (but clearly labelled, at least) rebuttal that demonstrably mischaracterizes the nature of the OP.
That being said, I'm just going to reiterate what I've been saying all along. The thread starter would do well to respect the wishes of his wife's family because by all available evidence theirs is a functional, Christian family and that bodes well for the ability of the daughter to do her part to maintain a healthy marriage with travis over the long-term. By all available evidence, she's a catch, and so, no, he should not press this issue and disturb his and her relationship with her family simply because he thinks that cohabitation before marriage is a prudent and necessary move.
I went on to say that it's not. And, in fact, cohabitation before marriage is a poor way to go about determining whether a girl is marriage material in the first place and ought not be a priority for a serious man who wants a successful marriage. There are far more important concerns than "Can we tolerate living together for a while before marriage?" such as "Do I have the character of a man who is able to honor his wedding vows?" and "Does my wife have the character of a woman who will honor hers?" which are better assessed by looking at the totality of her behavior, attitudes, relationship toward her family, religious beliefs, aspirations in life, etc. than by moving in with her and seeing whether or not the two of you can establish a modus vivendi in a couple of weeks, months, or years living under one roof. Basic domestic tranquility is easy to achieve between a mature, committed husband and wife anyway.
The whole "will my marriage be periodically miserable" tangent was just that, a tangent. But what I said there is true as well. It's true that every marriage goes through periods of abject misery and that no amount of cohabitation beforehand will obviate such periods. It's also true that the same type of people who advocate "test drives" and "sneak peeks" for determining "compatibility" are the same type of people who tend to panic when all their careful calculations and weighing of odds fail them nevertheless and they hit one of these patches of difficulty, they begin to wonder where their plans went wrong rather than accepting pragmatically that no tribulation has overtaken them but such as is common to man and powering through accordingly.
Upon review, I would say that my posts in this thread so far have been uniformly well-written, on-point, and insightful. But I do now have reason to doubt your ability or your inclination to summarize them fairly. Somewhere Carl R. Rogers is weeping.
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On January 14 2014 13:19 SongByungWewt wrote:many words There's a lot of contention between you two that's completely unnecessary and, honestly, detracts from otherwise sound arguments. While making a witty retort may indeed make you look cool, it adds nothing of value to the discussion while diverting attention from the idea to the person. We ought to be able to relate ideas without coming down on the people who bear them. (even if we think their position is ridiculous) ^^
That said, let me pose a question. In the context of "trial running a marriage", what, precisely, do you expect to learn about someone from cohabitation (that you could not learn otherwise) that would make you change your mind about marrying them or that would be something that you couldn't work out in a marriage?
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On January 14 2014 15:28 LockeTazeline wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2014 13:19 SongByungWewt wrote:On January 14 2014 12:07 HULKAMANIA wrote: many words many words That said, let me pose a question. In the context of "trial running a marriage", what, precisely, do you expect to learn about someone from cohabitation (that you could not learn otherwise) that would make you change your mind about marrying them or that would be something that you couldn't work out in a marriage? At the most basic of levels the big one is probably "Do we like living together and would we be able to do so for a long time?".
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