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On January 11 2014 09:12 LockeTazeline wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2014 08:30 Grobyc wrote:
I'm sure there are even a handful of statistics available to show that living together prior to marriage generally has better outcomes.
Um, not that I could find. The first statistic I saw was that people who lived together before being married had 50% higher divorce rates than those who hadn't cohabited. http://firstthings.org/marriage-family-fact-sheet (ctrl f "cohabitation") That data was like 25 years old though. A newer and probably more reliable study by the CDC showed that the rates were pretty close to equal, with the cohabitation rates only being a few percentages higher. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr049.pdf (page 18)
all that's hopelessly muddled because of lurking variables, for instance the fact that people who are less likely to cohabit are less likely to divorce anyway, regardless of the effect of cohabitation, and vice versa
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On January 11 2014 09:12 LockeTazeline wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2014 08:30 Grobyc wrote:
I'm sure there are even a handful of statistics available to show that living together prior to marriage generally has better outcomes.
Um, not that I could find. The first statistic I saw was that people who lived together before being married had 50% higher divorce rates than those who hadn't cohabited. http://firstthings.org/marriage-family-fact-sheet (ctrl f "cohabitation") That data was like 25 years old though. A newer and probably more reliable study by the CDC showed that the rates were pretty close to equal, with the cohabitation rates only being a few percentages higher. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr049.pdf (page 18)
I'm surprised to find research does indeed support this. Most studies do support the idea that cohabitation before marriage is correlated with higher divorce rates as well as other negative things.
Some articles say (apparently arbitrarily) that cohabitation has a negative effect on the outcome of the marriage, without much evidence to support that. The causality link isn't clear in this case, and I would postulate that the kind of people who would try to cohabit before marriage are perhaps more likely to be more comfortable with divorce or whatever. I don't know. I imagine that turbo-christians are less likely to do the whole cohabitation thing and they're less likely to divorce because of their previous values and whatnot. There are many variables into play here.
Either way, the causal link isn't made as far as I'm concerned. Very surprised to see that though, as I believe marriage before cohabitation to be incredibly foolish. Perhaps I should look at more research findings but this is what comes up first.
On January 11 2014 09:17 sam!zdat wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2014 09:12 LockeTazeline wrote:On January 11 2014 08:30 Grobyc wrote:
I'm sure there are even a handful of statistics available to show that living together prior to marriage generally has better outcomes.
Um, not that I could find. The first statistic I saw was that people who lived together before being married had 50% higher divorce rates than those who hadn't cohabited. http://firstthings.org/marriage-family-fact-sheet (ctrl f "cohabitation") That data was like 25 years old though. A newer and probably more reliable study by the CDC showed that the rates were pretty close to equal, with the cohabitation rates only being a few percentages higher. http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nhsr/nhsr049.pdf (page 18) people who are less likely to cohabit are less likely to divorce anyway, regardless of the effect of cohabitation, and vice versa
Yep probably indeed.
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this is an example of something that science doesn't help you with, ignore "studies" and think with your brain
On January 11 2014 09:36 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2014 09:34 sam!zdat wrote:
this is an example of something that science doesn't help you with, ignore "studies" and think with your brain I don't know if you're being rude to me
not intentionally, no, sorry
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On January 11 2014 09:34 sam!zdat wrote:
this is an example of something that science doesn't help you with, ignore "studies" and think with your brain
I don't know if you're being rude to me or if you're just making a statement here but I want to say that we agree about this. And I'm not sure that "ignore studies" is ever a good idea. Look at the studies and try to see what can be derived from them, if anything.
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On January 11 2014 07:39 travis wrote:
Ok, I will try to keep this short.
I am engaged with a woman I love very much. She is 24, I am 29. I am in the military and she is in law school in another state. I wanted to get married a bit sooner than we actually are, but her parents want her to wait until she is completely done with law school (1.5 years from now) for us to get married. I am respecting their wishes and waiting for this.
I will probably be separating from the air force early and going back to school. I want to go move in with her, she is my fiance so it seems not only reasonable but important to do so. She says she would love for me to move in with her but that her parents will not allow it because of religious beliefs(very christian). I think this is incredibly stupid.
She claims that if she went against her parents they would disown her. I do think that she believes this to be true (but i suspect it's a massive exaggeration of the reality of what would happen).
Regardless, I am not sure this is something I want to compromise about. Not living with her before we get married is a very bad idea yeah?
What do you guys think about this?
I would ask her if she can control her own life (don't phrase it like that, or else you'll get into a heap of trouble)
When she responds with yes, tell her it's her own decision. Her parents disowning her seems to be more of a way for them to control her through negative consequences more than it is actually them wanting to disown her for doing something they don't agree with.
On the other side of this argument, I don't know her to well, but based on the circumstances, she may be trying to put it off for some reason, and is using her parent's wishes as a scapegoat.
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I think it's a good idea to be in your wife's parents good books... Even though it would be better if you lived together first, it's okay to respect her parents' feelings. Either talk it out with them and get their approval, or deal with it.
I'm saying this because it's obviously not the case that she and her parents have a bad relationship. I also don't really like the idea of going behind their backs to talk to a priest to give yourself more ammo... I would find that really obnoxious. They're probably well aware that it's the norm for even Christians to live together before they're married.
If you think this might be just the beginning of conflicts, it's probably best to sort out early on how you're going to deal with it. Try to avoid making your fiance choose between her parents and you ;p
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I think if you want a girl to be your wife, for the rest of your life, she should respect what you want and move montains to accomodate to your needs.
Worse case scenario she should be willing to be disowned to live with you, if that's what you want, and make it your decision. Of course it is better if you can convince parents, but keep this in mind.
Maybe I'm very paranoid, but there is nothing worse than when you accomodate to much to a girl because "you love her" and it ends up backfiring on you (own experience)
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Getting married without having lived with the girl is like buying a house having only seen pictures of it. You have to understand that a relationship where you are just seeing each other from time to time is very different from one where you are spending the majority of your time together. You then get to see all the cracks in the walls and can judge if you really want to live in that house for many years or not.
That said, if her family situation is that extreme, you might not be able to move in before marrying. I liked the idea of trying to get some sort of pastoral support, but that could also very easily blow up in your face or make you look very defensive in the eyes of your girlfriend/her family.
Best option here is probably to sit down with her and have a long and calm talk about it. List the pros and the cons, discuss the options, and try to reach a compromise where both of you agree on how to proceed with this issue. Its essential that you get her full support (and that you give her your full support as well) on whatever action you both decide to take, because you don't really want to start a potential marriage by taking one-sided decisions and confronting her whole family and system of beliefs.
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Something that really bothers me is that her sister actually recently got married after rushing into it, and then got a divorce. Firstly, I thought that a divorce "wasn't christian", and yet they didn't disown her. Secondly, maybe she wouldn't have gotten married if she had lived with the guy for a while first. It's so frustrating.
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being stubborn about needing to move in with someone before you get married implies a sort of belief that there could be something that you would find out (upon living with her for the next 1.5 years before you get married) and then decide getting married was a bad idea: i think that the more stubborn you are, the more it feels that you would think, implicitly, this was a possibility.
if she genuinely feels that moving in together before you are married would damage her relationship with her parents, and you are "stubborn" about it, then it feels like you are essentially equating your feelings about moving in together before you get married with her feelings about her parents which seems insane to me.
stubborn in this case i mean as against/despite anything. i think if its something that you want to really do then to talk to her parents (and her/their pastor) etc. like people suggested already would be the best way to go about it, and to really consider 1. how important moving in together before you get married is to you and 2. why its important (ie what do you expect to come from it or whatever)
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On January 11 2014 08:51 teddyoojo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2014 08:30 Grobyc wrote:On January 11 2014 07:49 packrat386 wrote:
You could trying seeing what their religious leader thinks about it first. A lot of pastors/priests now recommend that couples live together before being married. That said, s/he might not back you up and then you would arguably be worse off than before. I think this is actually a really good idea. I'm sure there are even a handful of statistics available to show that living together prior to marriage generally has better outcomes. of course it fucking does
Actually, many statistics have shown the opposite. But, is this really a site that cares at all what statistics say? From my experience, people make up their minds first and read that into the statistics later.
Fact is, you can't practice permanence. You can, however, practice divorce. If you're engaged already, then heads up, marriage is on its way. If you want to be married forever, then jump in with both feet. If you spend your marriage scuttling at the edge of quitting, I can guarantee you that an opportunity will present itself.
I've only been married for almost 6 years, but I've already decided that nothing she does is going to make me leave her. Obviously, if she did certain things, it would cause our marriage to suffer greatly, but when I told her "through sickness and health" that was a promise I intended to keep. It wasn't, "through health until I get tired of you" or "for richer, def. not for poorer."
Likewise, she made a commitment to never leave me. Does that mean I get to do whatever I want and she'll still cook me meals 'n stuff? Well, kind of, but that's not the point. That means that all the more do I not want to hurt her. I'm all the more interested in loving her because I know she won't leave. I'm not sitting around theorizing about all the things I could get away with. That freedom increases my will to love her.
What does all this have to do with cohabiting before marriage? It means if you love her, then show her by jumping in. I honestly don't know why parents in America have this "finish school first" fetish, but if I were you, I'd explain to them that I don't want to practice marriage and us living together and play-making babies is only stringing your daughter along for the hope of marriage (many* women greatly desire to be married, whether they admit it or not) without the permanence, without the security. Basically, I want to man up and marry her.
I don't know how long you guys have been engaged, but another year and half seems egregiously long for no really good reason. Obeying the wishes of her parents is always a good reason, however, I would meet with them personally and sway them otherwise. In fact, I did that very thing with my wife. We married when we both had a year of school left. Actually, she had 4 left counting grad (dr. of physical therapy), but anyway.
That's how I see it. I'm about in the 1 percentile here, but you asked and I got some pretty crappy advice growing up that I followed, so now I open my mouth when people are searching for answers.
Good luck. I sincerely mean it.
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We can drop the statistics stuff I think we can all agree the research done on it is probably flawed either way.
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she postponed for 1.5 years because her parents told her to? And then doesnt even want to move in with you?
Thats a really strange relation to her family that she developed there.
Does she have a abusive father or something that made her afraid to do anything against "the family"?
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On January 11 2014 10:19 travis wrote:
Something that really bothers me is that her sister actually recently got married after rushing into it, and then got a divorce. Firstly, I thought that a divorce "wasn't christian", and yet they didn't disown her. Secondly, maybe she wouldn't have gotten married if she had lived with the guy for a while first. It's so frustrating.
Do you feel like you know her well enough? Do you feel like part of why you're getting married is because you're getting older and you want to start the next stage of your life?
I'm agreeing with the other poster, and I think divorce is more likely to be caused by people marrying for the wrong reasons than because they didn't try living together first. If you feel like you don't know if you two are capable of being reasonable and compromising with each other when you live together, maybe it's just too soon generally. Relationships break down because people get hard headed and can't resolve their problems. More so with marriage because it is a much bigger part of your life. If you find it really annoying that her parents are interfering with your relationship now, you've probably got more frustration to look forward to in the future. If you think she's taking their side too much, maybe it's only a sign of things to come. I feel like a dickhead telling you that about your fiance, but figure out if you're okay with what she's doing, because she is as much a part of this issue as her parents are.
Is it a minor thing that you just don't get why her parents want that, or is it something that really bothers you because of the politics involved, and not the issue of living together? It's hard to tell how much it bothers you. It's sort of important you know how much it bothers you and why it bothers you. Then what you need to do will be more obvious.
On January 11 2014 10:38 LaNague wrote:
she postponed for 1.5 years because her parents told her to? And then doesnt even want to move in with you?
Thats a really strange relation to her family that she developed there.
Does she have a abusive father or something that made her afraid to do anything against "the family"?
Don't take that out of context, that makes it really confusing. Her parents want her to wait until she's done Law school, which happens to be 1.5 years. You can blame her parents, but she might feel that way too. Law school is hard, a marriage is a distracting event to plan for and organize and involves a lot of big changes in your life. Why stress yourself out while you're still in school?
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On January 11 2014 09:36 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2014 09:34 sam!zdat wrote:
this is an example of something that science doesn't help you with, ignore "studies" and think with your brain I don't know if you're being rude to me or if you're just making a statement here but I want to say that we agree about this. And I'm not sure that "ignore studies" is ever a good idea. Look at the studies and try to see what can be derived from them, if anything.
You should spend some time researching how often studies, even by reputable labs, are flawed and publish skewed, biased results. There's actually a big backlash right now in the scientific community concerning directed research and how the whole R&D funding system in the USA operates. So, no, studies are not always some kind of proof-positive.
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I have been married since August of last year, and I have been living with my wife since October 2012. It's definitely a good idea to live together before marriage, I think you learn a lot about each-other and you'll start working on problems now that you won't have anticipated. That being said, I don't think it would make or break your marriage - you're either going to work well as a married couple or you won't, cohabitating beforehand isn't going to change that. Don't force something on her and risk the consequences.
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On January 11 2014 10:38 LaNague wrote:
she postponed for 1.5 years because her parents told her to? And then doesnt even want to move in with you?
Thats a really strange relation to her family that she developed there.
Does she have a abusive father or something that made her afraid to do anything against "the family"?
The postponing made a certain amount of sense though. Don't worry about it.
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It's such a terrible idea to not live with someone before marrying them. If it's important to you, don't back down from it.
You guys have to live your lives how you want to live them. Either her parents want to be a part of that, or they don't. But they don't get to hold your relationship hostage with their (potential) threats.
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On January 11 2014 10:45 SongByungWewt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2014 09:36 Djzapz wrote:On January 11 2014 09:34 sam!zdat wrote:
this is an example of something that science doesn't help you with, ignore "studies" and think with your brain I don't know if you're being rude to me or if you're just making a statement here but I want to say that we agree about this. And I'm not sure that "ignore studies" is ever a good idea. Look at the studies and try to see what can be derived from them, if anything. You should spend some time researching how often studies, even by reputable labs, are flawed and publish skewed, biased results. There's actually a big backlash right now in the scientific community concerning directed research and how the whole R&D funding system in the USA operates. So, no, studies are not always some kind of proof-positive.
Isn't that my point? I'm just saying you don't ignore them completely, you look at them and see if you can take something from them. Social sciences are not made off of people like myself or anyone else taking the best guess they can. We have to base our conclusion on something that's at least somewhat tangible. It's a good idea to at least look at studies, read their methodology and whatnot.
A lot of the time, the conclusion is full of unfounded shit, which is why it's a good idea to look at the data and whatnot.
It's irritating that you'd tell me that I should "spend time researching shit" like that when I was just basically saying that people shouldn't make their own conclusions. You should spend time researching how effective it is to do social sciences by posing an hypothesis on a whim and declaring it to be true.
As for the last line of your post, you say "So, no, studies are not always some kind of proof-positive.". That's obvious as fuck and my post reflects that, so I don't know who the hell you're arguing with.
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On January 11 2014 08:04 travis wrote:There are financial reasons involved where her family is concerned but I don't think they are anything we couldn't overcome. Show nested quote +On January 11 2014 07:59 SongByungWewt wrote:
I'm with sam! It's a terrible idea to get married before co-habitating. It's like walking blindfolded into a hallway full of swords smeared with pigshit.
Also, this girl does not seem very self-actualized with all the talk about disowning and marriage after education is complete etc. A lot of girls, especially American ones, are psychologically immature into their late 20's nowadays. You sure you want to tie the knot with a girl who might change into a whole different person in a half-decade or so? I've seen some girls change pretty dramatically after they get out of school and are introduced to the "real world."
If she changes I don't think it will be in negative ways and I already love her so...  I have not talked to her parents or their pastor (interesting idea). I initially posted this for opinions on how reasonable I am being by being stubborn about this. I am worried about how it would go talking to her parents.. I suspect reason would not sway them.
They have their reasons. It is unlikely that they think that living together before marriage is inherently a sin, I have never heard of such a belief in any portion of the Bible or Christianity. It is most likely that they are afraid of something that may happen as a result of living together, in which case you should be able to assuage their fears.
Unless, of course, they're afraid that now that they've let their daughter off the leash, she's going to run right into premarital sex and drugs and sin and heresy and damnation.
Regardless, they have their reasons for not liking you two moving in together. Try and learn their reasons and try to understand their mindset. Unless they don't like you (in which case you're going to have to fight them anywayssooner or later), they won't try and bite your head off for asking them some questions and trying to understand them. Go to them and go to their pastor and learn what you can from both.
Oh and try to humble yourself. Christians are like Captain America's shield, the more you try and brute force them, the stronger and stronger their faith gets.
Darn it I just realized I starting puking information all over the place again. I hope a lot of that was actually useful rather than something you've already realized and dealt with a thousand times before as a fiance.
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EPT
