On October 30 2013 00:39 Xiphos wrote: The spoiled entertainment goes into incredible details of what I'm about to write. So if you don't have much time, read this post. If you want to be enlightened to a greater magnitude, y'know what to do. + Show Spoiler +
I hope I'm not the only guy saying this but you can't have a constructive discussion regarding the SC2 scene while being positive. If the game is good enough, then there would be hardly any complaint from anyone except for newbies as people would be too busy enjoying playing the game instead.
The community, instead of forcing being positive regarding the scene should be more realistic in their posts. If you don't like what you are seeing, don't be like "Oh welp, I guess I have to close my eyes and be positive about it!" No you should actually go out there and write a cogent and constructive criticism on the subject. However, you can't avoid being negative in a critics so being negative is absolutely necessary for the growth any industry.
You should never "be positive" for the sake positivity. That's how major mistakes occurs in real life such as not taking exigent action toward wrongdoings. Call things the way you see it. Don't be afraid to voice your opinion because it will "hurt" the scene. Personally even though Sonic is the messiah for BW scene atm, I'm not afraid to judge his team dynamics in the next upcoming SPL.
Its tough love and that's the reality. Think about it like this, this electronic sport scene is like a child and the driving force behind the child is the community and developer. Now there will be some child who are willing hard to admit their mistakes and work hard toward improvement while others would spend the majority of their time enjoying their leisure time while being spoiled with rainbows and compliments. Eventually the former one would become incredible successful while the latter end up underachieving. Same thing applied in SC2 as the community/developer should be HARSH toward the game so that it may succeed in LONG run. If you see your kid smoking/drinking incessantly, it is your DUTY to chastise it so that it may grow up healthy.
Fake positivism is the absolutely worst one can perform in attempt to improve.
Taking BW Elitism mask off for a second (because this is what I actually believe in, not 'bury sc2' personality that I usually put on in irc/livestreams),
Calling things the way people see it isn't the problem. The problem is what people do with this information.
Someone can post why X is not good, and list out the reasons. The community then can either learn to accept that why something's not good and improve upon it, or just continue saying 'oh it's dead'.
It's fine pointing out things that need improvement and things that need to be fixed. People can choose to think positively and improve upon those subjects, or choose to say 'it's dead' which actually leads to its death because people did not choose to fix those mistakes.
That being said, a game is dead when nobody watches it. SC2 is far away from that.
He isn't talking about fake positivism at all or saying that constructive criticism is bad. He is talking about mindless negativism and trolls that have dominated the discussion for the last few months.
On October 30 2013 00:39 Xiphos wrote: The spoiled entertainment goes into incredible details of what I'm about to write. So if you don't have much time, read this post. If you want to be enlightened to a greater magnitude, y'know what to do. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U60dUB1oRt8
I hope I'm not the only guy saying this but you can't have a constructive discussion regarding the SC2 scene while being positive. If the game is good enough, then there would be hardly any complaint from anyone except for newbies as people would be too busy enjoying playing the game instead.
The community, instead of forcing being positive regarding the scene should be more realistic in their posts. If you don't like what you are seeing, don't be like "Oh welp, I guess I have to close my eyes and be positive about it!" No you should actually go out there and write a cogent and constructive criticism on the subject. However, you can't avoid being negative in a critics so being negative is absolutely necessary for the growth any industry.
You should never "be positive" for the sake positivity. That's how major mistakes occurs in real life such as not taking exigent action toward wrongdoings. Call things the way you see it. Don't be afraid to voice your opinion because it will "hurt" the scene. Personally even though Sonic is the messiah for BW scene atm, I'm not afraid to judge his team dynamics in the next upcoming SPL.
Its tough love and that's the reality. Think about it like this, this electronic sport scene is like a child and the driving force behind the child is the community and developer. Now there will be some child who are willing hard to admit their mistakes and work hard toward improvement while others would spend the majority of their time enjoying their leisure time while being spoiled with rainbows and compliments. Eventually the former one would become incredible successful while the latter end up underachieving. Same thing applied in SC2 as the community/developer should be HARSH toward the game so that it may succeed in LONG run. If you see your kid smoking/drinking incessantly, it is your DUTY to chastise it so that it may grow up healthy.
Fake positivism is the absolutely worst one can perform in attempt to improve.
I don’t feel like a gave off the idea we should have false positivity. There is blatant negativity and then there is constructive criticism. The first one is what I was addressing. I think there is a great need for discussing the flaws in SC2. However LR threads may not be the best place for that. I’m more exhausted by people trying to ruin the tournament experience. People legit enjoy the game for what it is and have no past experience with competitive gaming. Why do we have to use every tournament thread as an opportunity to convert more happy viewers into people who should be fighting for a cause to make blizzard better. Here’s the deal. The casual viewer experience is horrible right now because of the proactive negativity posters in all the LRs. This needs to be removed so that way the casual fans can be really hooked in on what is on screen. This allows the fans to become more hooked and those that become the hardcore fans can start getting involved and venture to other threads. There they can find a realm of criticism and discussion on how to improve their experience more. I think you have the right mentality but it is misplaced by the message I’m trying to send to everyone.
Blizzard is still injecting money in to the scene sc2 is not really that dead yet in my opinion other than that I agree most of the post that Bisu Dagger posted about mostly about the bw pros returning back naturally to where they have come from. It's like a home beacon that is calling the pros to move on with their life if the game isn't what their passion really is and play the game that really ignited their spirit and their passion.
The one thing that is decreasing my enjoyment of sc2 the most (by a wide margin) is people that is shitting all over the game, the players, the casters, the formats, the tournaments, EVERYTHING, EVERYWHERE.
That said, I don't mind constructive discussion etc, but keep it in its place, please, so that I can ignore it when I want to.
If you are not/can not be critical about the game, both the game and its community will never further itself for the better. Indeed, the truly worse situation was if everyone was a yes-man and just accepted whatever Blizzard shoved down our throats. Think about what the game, and the community, would be like if we never spoke up about 5rax reaper, chat channels, various dumb hots units like warhounds, shredders, medivac superheal, and of course community things like the papa johns, esports documentary "scandals", and even the current discussions about the failures of the WCS system. These have all spawned highly negative debates, but they all are trying to lead to positive outcomes.
Yes, "SC2 dying" is hyperbole, there are obvious posters who are just trolling with the statement, but I would argue that the majority of these posts (here on TL) do actually care about the game, but are not quite as eloquent with their words. Its only more prevalent now because all of these pros leaving the scene because they don't like the game anymore for whatever reasons. That is a fact you cannot ignore. And we'd be worse off as a community and for the game if people choose to ignore these facts.
On October 30 2013 01:59 a176 wrote: If you are not/can not be critical about the game, both the game and its community will never further itself for the better. Indeed, the truly worse situation was if everyone was a yes-man and just accepted whatever Blizzard shoved down our throats. Think about what the game, and the community, would be like if we never spoke up about 5rax reaper, chat channels, various dumb hots units like warhounds, shredders, medivac superheal, and of course community things like the papa johns, esports documentary "scandals", and even the current discussions about the failures of the WCS system. These have all spawned highly negative debates, but they all are trying to lead to positive outcomes.
I feel like this portion of your statement got off topic from the message I was try send. It is your opinion that not having 5 rax reaper is a good thing or that warhounds were dumb units. I know plenty of people who disagree with you and feel like blizzard made mistakes on how they handled correcting these issues. But this blog is not to debate your opinions on balance issues and scandals which is all it really is.
Yes, "SC2 dying" is hyperbole, there are obvious posters who are just trolling with the statement, but I would argue that the majority of these posts (here on TL) do actually care about the game, but are not quite as eloquent with their words. Its only more prevalent now because all of these pros leaving the scene because they don't like the game anymore for whatever reasons. That is a fact you cannot ignore. And we'd be worse off as a community and for the game if people choose to ignore these facts.
How is “SC2 is dying” a fact that we cannot ignore? You do not give any examples of facts worth paying attention too. The inability for someone to make a complete thought therefore they write some form of “Sc2 is dying” is not an excuse. The human body is capable of composing itself long enough for a complete thought and then translating it into a readable sentence online. I don’t believe in cutting people slack for being lazy posters.
Also, I already addressed the pros that are leaving in the OP. It isn't "for whatever reason", we know why many of them left.
Host more premium events in Toronto, Canada Me and the Toronto crowd for season 3 finals single handedly saved eSports this weekend
On a more serious note, great blog, will recommend to friends and family. I honest dislike LoL, but spend no time b*tching about its popularity and how it's going to kill sc2. There's so much b*tching and moaning about every little issue, yet no one seems willing to actually do something about it, it's nice you're taking the initiative. SC2 has a bright future ahead of it imo.
On October 30 2013 01:59 a176 wrote: If you are not/can not be critical about the game, both the game and its community will never further itself for the better. Indeed, the truly worse situation was if everyone was a yes-man and just accepted whatever Blizzard shoved down our throats. Think about what the game, and the community, would be like if we never spoke up about 5rax reaper, chat channels, various dumb hots units like warhounds, shredders, medivac superheal, and of course community things like the papa johns, esports documentary "scandals", and even the current discussions about the failures of the WCS system. These have all spawned highly negative debates, but they all are trying to lead to positive outcomes.
I feel like this portion of your statement got off topic from the message I was try send. It is your opinion that not having 5 rax reaper is a good thing or that warhounds were dumb units. I know plenty of people who disagree with you and feel like blizzard made mistakes on how they handled correcting these issues. But this blog is not to debate your opinions on balance issues and scandals which is all it really is.
Yes, "SC2 dying" is hyperbole, there are obvious posters who are just trolling with the statement, but I would argue that the majority of these posts (here on TL) do actually care about the game, but are not quite as eloquent with their words. Its only more prevalent now because all of these pros leaving the scene because they don't like the game anymore for whatever reasons. That is a fact you cannot ignore. And we'd be worse off as a community and for the game if people choose to ignore these facts.
How is “SC2 is dying” a fact that we cannot ignore? You do not give any examples of facts worth paying attention too. The inability for someone to make a complete thought therefore they write some form of “Sc2 is dying” is not an excuse. The human body is capable of composing itself long enough for a complete thought and then translating it into a readable sentence online. I don’t believe in cutting people slack for being lazy posters.
Also, I already addressed the pros that are leaving in the OP. It isn't "for whatever reason", we know why many of them left.
The point is people talking about the state of the game, whether you choose to talk about units and balance, or the overall appeal, longevity, life of the game, is not a bad thing and that you shouldn't discourage it. People saying how the game is "dying" are showing concern for the game. Both you and I have been around long enough to know its exactly what happened with a spate of retirements, sponsorship issues, and match fixing scandal during the last little bit of professional BW; people being concerned about BW "dying". SC2 is just going through its own similar set of misgivings.
On October 30 2013 00:39 Xiphos wrote: The spoiled entertainment goes into incredible details of what I'm about to write. So if you don't have much time, read this post. If you want to be enlightened to a greater magnitude, y'know what to do. + Show Spoiler +
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U60dUB1oRt8
I hope I'm not the only guy saying this but you can't have a constructive discussion regarding the SC2 scene while being positive. If the game is good enough, then there would be hardly any complaint from anyone except for newbies as people would be too busy enjoying playing the game instead.
The community, instead of forcing being positive regarding the scene should be more realistic in their posts. If you don't like what you are seeing, don't be like "Oh welp, I guess I have to close my eyes and be positive about it!" No you should actually go out there and write a cogent and constructive criticism on the subject. However, you can't avoid being negative in a critics so being negative is absolutely necessary for the growth any industry.
You should never "be positive" for the sake positivity. That's how major mistakes occurs in real life such as not taking exigent action toward wrongdoings. Call things the way you see it. Don't be afraid to voice your opinion because it will "hurt" the scene. Personally even though Sonic is the messiah for BW scene atm, I'm not afraid to judge his team dynamics in the next upcoming SPL.
Its tough love and that's the reality. Think about it like this, this electronic sport scene is like a child and the driving force behind the child is the community and developer. Now there will be some child who are willing hard to admit their mistakes and work hard toward improvement while others would spend the majority of their time enjoying their leisure time while being spoiled with rainbows and compliments. Eventually the former one would become incredible successful while the latter end up underachieving. Same thing applied in SC2 as the community/developer should be HARSH toward the game so that it may succeed in LONG run. If you see your kid smoking/drinking incessantly, it is your DUTY to chastise it so that it may grow up healthy.
Fake positivism is the absolutely worst one can perform in attempt to improve.
I don’t feel like a gave off the idea we should have false positivity. There is blatant negativity and then there is constructive criticism. The first one is what I was addressing. I think there is a great need for discussing the flaws in SC2. However LR threads may not be the best place for that. I’m more exhausted by people trying to ruin the tournament experience. People legit enjoy the game for what it is and have no past experience with competitive gaming. Why do we have to use every tournament thread as an opportunity to convert more happy viewers into people who should be fighting for a cause to make blizzard better. Here’s the deal. The casual viewer experience is horrible right now because of the proactive negativity posters in all the LRs. This needs to be removed so that way the casual fans can be really hooked in on what is on screen. This allows the fans to become more hooked and those that become the hardcore fans can start getting involved and venture to other threads. There they can find a realm of criticism and discussion on how to improve their experience more. I think you have the right mentality but it is misplaced by the message I’m trying to send to everyone.
Then you are running the risk of generalization. In every single community, there will be ones posting similar one-liner troll message like "dead game", "u mad bro?" to troll bait, then it is up for the mod to cleanse it. So no matter how hard you tried to make it positive, this case will always prevalent among us. Most newcomers come from an internet forum background so they will most definitely have experience in phasing out those trolls.
And here is something that is not particularly agreeable with. In LR thread, yes they should be relevant to the tournament of it but however if casters/commentators make mistake in their job, then you should absolutely criticize them. It is even MORE detrimental to newcomers to hear wrong play calls by professional castors as they will go laddering and utilize those wrong strategical insight in their own games.
In terms of LR positivity, there should actually be more "trashtalking" between fans in order to cement the "sport" image of the game. All the physical sport grew because of that passion between fans. Newcomers will come in and think "Wow these guys are really passionate about their favorites, this reminds me of NHL rivalry between X and Y.". You said it yourself of having rivalries. This will captivate them. You shouldn't exactly force people to have their face glued on screen. Now THAT is off putting the mood of newcomers for you to dictate. Instead what you should be encouraging newcomers to express as much passion as possible. Don't hold back on anything.
the esports scene in sc2 isnt dying, its on a decline but i dont see it dying. the competitive levels going on in sc2 and the players and casters make sc2 esports great.
the game itself is dying, you dont see many people on the chats and the custom game/arcade area is really dead and have no new innovations compared to the past. back then in war3 you had those silly bots and you could chat with people for hours on end, nobody does that on sc2 anymore, theres no sense of community in the sc2 game area itself.
Sure you can argue you go there to play but thats not what people do. i dont even log in much to sc2 anymore and after 1 or 2 ladder games i immediately log out. it wasnt like this in the past.
ignoring the issue will not make it go away. you cant clap your hands and believe away cancer
There is a big difference between mindless positivism and what he espouses. There is also a big difference between constructive criticism and unproductive negativism.
Sometimes I feel like NovstOrm and I are the only people almost entirely happy with SC2
On October 30 2013 08:51 lichter wrote: I don't think people really understand the OP
There is a big difference between mindless positivism and what he espouses. There is also a big difference between constructive criticism and unproductive negativism.
Sometimes I feel like NovstOrm and I are the only people almost entirely happy with SC2
Hey there, I'm pretty pleased with sc2 and not making up weird anectodal evidence that's SC2 is dying.
On October 30 2013 08:08 Kingsky wrote: ignoring the issue will not make it go away. you cant clap your hands and believe away cancer
Well, if SC2 is "dying", it would be through entropy, not a terminal illness. But that's the way everything dies eventually anyhow. I think going "SC2 IS DYING OF AIDS AND CANCER" is just way too extreme and pointless to actually make any sort of difference. But let's say SC2 has cancer and is going to die. What good is it going to do to point this out? Sure, it happens in the retirement threads and if there any problems with the tournaments, it's like a lighting strike scattering a herd. They'll all lose their minds and say the game is dying. So. Yeah.
On October 29 2013 10:38 ninazerg wrote: Almost every top gamer in SC2 played for a Kespa team at one point. SC2 fans always pretend like Kespa never made an impact on the SC2 scene, and quietly act like Bogus never existed. In fact, every top 10 player list is all players who played either BroodWar or WarCraft 3. There is no consistent champion in SC2, because unlike BW or WC3, SC2 is constantly changing drastically, so that the changes affect very fundamental elements of gameplay. That, in my opinion, is one of the main problems with SC2.
What does you're post accomplish Nina? We are friends, but you officially added a wall of nothing to contribute here. SC2 fans aren't in some state of disarray that can only be solved by the realization that a lot of the current players played SC1. SC2 has started it's own branch of history. If they care where the players came from before then that's great. Then someone like you can inform them of the players roots. But right now the focus should be on SC2 fans embracing what is in front of them. Anyone who learns from what I read should just ignore what you wrote. I guess you just meta-ed the thread so everyone could practice talking about things worth discussing instead of topics the lead to terrible threads. And in no way do I mean to disrespect your opinion, but the place for your post isn't here.
You wanna fight me, bro? Come to my city if you've got the balls and we can settle this in the streets. You will be limited to one blade weapon, no firearms are allowed. Additionally, no kicks, knees, or elbows. No pepperspray, tasers, or blunt-object weapons will be allowed. The blade of your weapon cannot exceed six inches in length, and must be made of metal; no glass. You may not coat your weapon in poison. You may not stab someone if they are not looking at you while you are stabbing them, except if they are on the ground and you use the stab as your finishing move. No stabbing or slashing to the genitals is allowed. The duel will only begin once both participants have squared off and have presented their weapon.
On October 30 2013 08:51 lichter wrote: I don't think people really understand the OP
There is a big difference between mindless positivism and what he espouses. There is also a big difference between constructive criticism and unproductive negativism.
Sometimes I feel like NovstOrm and I are the only people almost entirely happy with SC2
I'm happy with sc2. or do you think I'm some sort of masochist?
On October 30 2013 08:51 lichter wrote: I don't think people really understand the OP
There is a big difference between mindless positivism and what he espouses. There is also a big difference between constructive criticism and unproductive negativism.
Sometimes I feel like NovstOrm and I are the only people almost entirely happy with SC2
I'm happy with sc2. or do you think I'm some sort of masochist?
On October 30 2013 08:51 lichter wrote: I don't think people really understand the OP
There is a big difference between mindless positivism and what he espouses. There is also a big difference between constructive criticism and unproductive negativism.
Sometimes I feel like NovstOrm and I are the only people almost entirely happy with SC2
I'm happy with sc2. or do you think I'm some sort of masochist?
On October 30 2013 08:51 lichter wrote: I don't think people really understand the OP
There is a big difference between mindless positivism and what he espouses. There is also a big difference between constructive criticism and unproductive negativism.
Sometimes I feel like NovstOrm and I are the only people almost entirely happy with SC2
True, there is also flogging the skeleton of a dead horse over and over again - see design threads. How often do we really need to know about deathballs and warpgate and protoss etc? Ad infinitum ad nauseum about begins to describe it.
There is also the mistake of confusing SC2 positivity with mindless positivity. I don't believe this is often the case. It is quite possible to recognise the faults of the game and either accept them and/or not believe these to be crippling faults while still appreciative of the game. It is also possible to believe that SC2 is just a fantastic game, and that is fine too.
there have been really really good productive threads stating about design changes in regards to social interaction in the game itself. we cant change or mod the freaking sc2 because blizzard.
so yeah, we tried and failed so you want us to just ignore it and pretend its all fine?
kinda like the QE in japan right? If something doesnt work do we try harder or do we try something else.
Now your just advocating trying something else. (Which is pretend it doesnt exist? that is dumb)
EPT
