On October 25 2013 00:40 Kergy wrote: One less reason to care about SC2.
Yea - because ZerO was like super relevent to the scene.
I wonder how many of the people who claim that SC2 is dying is coming from a BW background, because as someone who didn't follow BW people such as Bisu, Jangbi, ZerO and so on might aswell never have exsisted. I understand that these players have a huge legacy from BW but to be fair, almost none of them added anything to the SC2 scene. Most casual viewers who only watches Premier League and Premier tournaments might not even have seen more than a few games these people. During the eight months Proleague ran Bisu played like 20 games or so.
Obviously Kespa players didn't make quite the impact on the scene that people expected them to do, and i can understand why people who used to be at the top of the food-chain wouldn't want to start all over again.
I never say BW is dieing, but I am someone who came from BW and waited 2 years and watched SC2 consistently anticipating the BW switch of Kespa pros to SC2 because I love them as people themselves and wanted to be able to support them in SC2. I feel like it's just a strong vocal minority of people that ring loud when they says SC2 is dieing and it hurts. The same a**holes did it to BW when times were tough. But years later I'm having tons of fun with BW still. SC2 will do the same thing.
Sooner or later you just have to drown them out. But it's not BW fans that are preaching this. Pure BW fans just don't care to waste their time here and hurt people. It's an infection within the SC2 community itself. The responsibility falls on the abundance of fans the still remain the SC2 world to start being louder than the vocal minority. I left SC2 forums for a while because the SC2 community stopped having pride and being supportive. Instead posters have allowed the vocal minority to walk over them.
Instead of replying to the SC2 dieing preachers take an effort to discuss games in forums. Make jokes with each other. Start rivalry battles in LR thread. Make cheerfuls. For fuck sakes scream as loud as you can at every game about how amazing it was. Then the bug will come back. The one that made everyone want to be a part of Starcraft 2. The one that took the world by storm. Stop blaming people and get your shit together SC2 community.
This isn't just a blog about feelings. This is something I believe everyone knows in their hearts but needs to hear it anyway.
Have you ever read "The Sky is Falling"? The story is about Chicken Little, a small chicken who believes the end of the world is coming when an acorn falls on his head. This leaves Little to the conclusion that the sky is falling. Quickly Little spreads the word and sends panic across the world. Starcraft 2 has it's own Chicken Little. We can't point out where it started and therefore there is no one to blame. But what we do know is the "Sky" is most definitely not falling!
SC2 is dieing has become a popular term in the SC2 esports community. But it is not and it won't. There will always be people shitting on your game no matter what state it is currently in. The same assholes who say it's dieing now were the same ones who said it was dieing in Wings of Liberty, and the same ones who preached it during SC2 beta, and are the same people who said Brood War was outdated and wouldn't exist anymore when SC2 came out. Do you see the trend here?
The hardest part about enjoying SC2 is when we allow the community to become infected. Think about the age range of viewers for the game. A lot of us older users (me being 25), can often forget that the new generation is actually quite young. SC2 gets an age reset in the ESports community. Young players like Maru come about just like Flash in Brood War. And with them flood in 14 and 15 year old kids who want to be Starcraft 2 pros and watch these players like they are Michael Jordan.
We NOT only ruin the moment for these kids who are in love with the Michael Jordans of Starcraft 2, but we ruin it for ourselves. There is a severe need for a positive outlook on the damn game. If you really have issues with blizzard please ravage the bnet forums. They are there to vent anger. If you hate a tournament format or an event then give them feedback on their websites but make it positive and productive feedback please.
I will now address a few infectious things in the current community.
Players Retiring: A lot of KESPA players have retired lately. That's it. KESPA, KESPA players. If you are uninformed, Kespa players are SC1 players who were told to play a completely different game. Almost all of the players said ok and would give it a shot. A year later they had a decision. Is this game something I enjoy? or Should I return to the game I've put 12 hrs a day into for the past 10 years of my life? It's honestly stupid for you to think the SC2 is an easy choice for all of them. Why do something you aren't passionate about? It doesn't mean SC2 is a bad game, they just want to return to the game that they started competitive gaming for. But in the end SC2 still got great players such as Innovation, Dear, Soulkey, Rain, Jaedong and more who seem to embrace the change. So stop freaking out about KESPA players that retire. It makes sense.
Caster Bashing: Casters are honestly the most under appreciated work horses in the industry. They have to watch replays, watch vods of tournaments they are casting, keep up with player results, play the games themselves, and constantly stay current with the metagame. Does that seem easy? Cause then they also have to travel through time zones, constantly reach out for the next job available, not see family or friends for weeks/months at a time. This is just the surface of what we can identify casters are doing for you. Then there are a slew of mid to lower level caster trying to put in the great many hours just to work their way up and also to share with you the abundance of love for the game. All the top casters you see now spent years getting to where they are. It's not like magic and luck brought them there. Not every caster fits your style. Deal with it. Enjoy the fact that you get to watch another game of Starcraft and appreciate that the person talking to you is earning a paycheck so they can get though life like any other hard working man. Anyone who bashes a caster is another cancer cell working its hardest to ruin everyones fun.
ESports and other games: SC2 doesn't need to be #1, it just needs to be. Do you think Marvel vs Capcom gaming fans give a shit if League is doing really well. I doubt they talk about the game ever. Do you really think BW fans sit around hoping SC2 will die because it hurt SC1? The answer is no. The SC1 community just wants to watch good games and encourage each other. There isn't a secret conclave discussing how to kill SC2. My point is, focus on SC2 and stop worrying about the other games. That is the responsibility of their fans to keep those games running. Why am I active in the SC1, SC2, and League forums. Because I just like seeing people passionate about competitive gaming. But you don't have to be like me. Just love SC2.
Blizzard: I touched on this in my opening statement. BNet forums are there for a reason.
LR Threads: The WCS S3 thread was the best LR thread I've seen this year. I felt like everyone has started to come together to push out the trash posters, but a lot of work still has to be done. LR threads are threads are for player trash talking. That's right, you are allowed to insult teams and make fanboys cry. That's part of the fun. The thread is for cheering on what you liked and just saw. Post "Holy Shit that was awesome" when you're really impressed. The thread is for analyzing players when you see them make a mistake. Discuss solutions to the problem not how much they suck because the race is broken. Reignite the rivalry. SC2 teams should mean something. Start becoming a fierce fan for all players on your team in individual and team tournaments. If you don't have a team, pick the one with the cutest player. That's what worked out well for me. Most importantly, ignore all the negative people in threads. Don't quote them, don't reply to them. Just let it be cause in 1 minute a new page is added to the thread with 20 new positive comments drowning out the bad ones.
Conclusion: There's a lot of stuff I just wrote cause I know that SC2 is on the verge of greatness. This community has so much potential to be the best f-ing fans for a game world wide. A medium amount of fans that love the game is better then a massive amount of semifans that don't care about it's community or the players.I couldn't be more proud to be a fan of SC1. Eveyone who knows me knows I've supported SKT T1 and Bisu as much as possible. SC2 fans, it's your responsibility to take this type of passion I have and I know you have, to the next level.
...And no, SC2 doesn't need saving, it is doing just fine. It just needs our love..
Well said BisuDagger. I'm the one who put your post on reddit to get it more exposure because I felt it spoke so much truth and its something the community needed to hear. This is a great follow up! Thanks for the insight, I agree we need teams to be supported more as well, and player trash talk is lots of fun
On October 29 2013 09:54 ZeromuS wrote: Well said BisuDagger. I'm the one who put your post on reddit to get it more exposure because I felt it spoke so much truth and its something the community needed to hear. This is a great follow up! Thanks for the insight, I agree we need teams to be supported more as well, and player trash talk is lots of fun
You're right, that there is no secret Plan to kill SC2 in the BW community. I mean why would we? As a BW fan, i'm looking forward to the devlopment of my game, do help it grow to support it and to be a part of it's community. I dont even think about Sc2 a lot. I think your attitude is very healthy. We all should just start to support our game and stop worrying about the rest.
To be fair, some casters (not gonna name anyone for the sake of avoiding flamewars, and because it's partially personal opinion) really do give the impression they just can't be bothered to study the game. I've posted several times in lr threads correcting something wrong said by a caster, and it's not like im an sc2 genius, i just happen to have learnt the game very well over the years. Some casters just...don't know it despite it being their job, which baffles me.
It's still not a good excuse for shitposting and caster bashing in lr threads of course.
Also hell of a post, 5/5. The community would be appear to be so much better if that freaking vocal minority crying doom and desperation just shut up.
This reminds me of people saying wc3 was dying. It wasn't until last year that I actually switched to sc2, because there were just weaker players left where I live and I had like 300-400 ping to good players from other countries. I just had as much fun as I could until it wasn't worth staying around anymore.
It's ridiculous to see people talk about sc2 dying when there's still an expansion to come.
Almost every top gamer in SC2 played for a Kespa team at one point. SC2 fans always pretend like Kespa never made an impact on the SC2 scene, and quietly act like Bogus never existed. In fact, every top 10 player list is all players who played either BroodWar or WarCraft 3. There is no consistent champion in SC2, because unlike BW or WC3, SC2 is constantly changing drastically, so that the changes affect very fundamental elements of gameplay. That, in my opinion, is one of the main problems with SC2.
On October 29 2013 10:38 ninazerg wrote: Almost every top gamer in SC2 played for a Kespa team at one point. SC2 fans always pretend like Kespa never made an impact on the SC2 scene, and quietly act like Bogus never existed. In fact, every top 10 player list is all players who played either BroodWar or WarCraft 3. There is no consistent champion in SC2, because unlike BW or WC3, SC2 is constantly changing drastically, so that the changes affect very fundamental elements of gameplay. That, in my opinion, is one of the main problems with SC2.
What does you're post accomplish Nina? We are friends, but you officially added a wall of nothing to contribute here. SC2 fans aren't in some state of disarray that can only be solved by the realization that a lot of the current players played SC1. SC2 has started it's own branch of history. If they care where the players came from before then that's great. Then someone like you can inform them of the players roots. But right now the focus should be on SC2 fans embracing what is in front of them. Anyone who learns from what I read should just ignore what you wrote. I guess you just meta-ed the thread so everyone could practice talking about things worth discussing instead of topics the lead to terrible threads. And in no way do I mean to disrespect your opinion, but the place for your post isn't here.
People said BW was dying since like a few months after it came out. It's just a quirk of human egocentricity that makes us think because we are losing interest in something, everyone else must be too.
Just worry about yourself :O Not everyone has to be exactly like you—that's what these people need to realise.
There is room for speculation about the prospects of X thing, but you kinda have to separate your personal experience from it. Anecdotal evidence is never really valid, and that's what 'me and all my friends have gotten bored' is. Saying you think X is dying is disrespectful to people who still like it, so maybe consider why your insight is so valuable to other people that you have to be jerk (it probably isn't).
Maybe it's an instinct that we want people to move on with us, do what we're doing etc, but I think the rational part of our brain has to step in and say 'that doesn't apply to total strangers, and probably friends can do both old things and new.'
Coming from someone who detests SC2 as a game and Blizzard as the company it currently is. There is merit in discussing the values of the company and the successes and failures of the game and sustainability of the new ESPORTS model, but there is no merit in expecting people to care about your boredom with something.
So basically I agree, but I think the root of this problem is a little deeper the SC2 community. It think it's a maturity thing and there will always be people who have some growing up to do.
As one of the most prolific supporters of SC2 on the forums, I support BisusDagger in every way. It was such a bummer to watch the SC2 community become infected with these people who just want tear the game down hiding behind the veil of "criticism". The worst part was that some of these people truly thought they were the majority. The endless, pointless threads complaining about nothing at all just got old and slowly smothered things we enjoyed, like State of the Game.
However, it has been uplifting in the last month to see people trying to take the community and discussion back. More and more people are pushing back against the stupid fucking "design" and deathball threads that litter for forums after every event. Its also nice to see the mods flat out banning useless comments like "SC2 is dying". I love SC2 and the people who play it and I am beyond tired of the endless discussions about region locking, BM and other sudo-ethical bullshit like Naniwa's $500 bounty and if its ok or bad mannered. Why can't we just be pumped about them playing and leave it at that?
But in the end, I think cooler heads and people who love the game will win out. BW is BW and needs to be that. SC2 is its own game with its own heroes, styles and players. I will be happy when the last Kespa player who wants to retire does and everyone who wants to play is all-in on SC2.
5/5 would spotlight and tell all my friends to read twice.
Edit: On a side, but related top, people should also listen to Giant Bomb's Patrick Klepek Tedx talk about negativity on the internet and how people and communities should deal with it. Also, his stuff about Phil Phis leaving gaming.
It is amazing how close it comes to a lot of the stuff we saw in SC2 and how there is a destructive undercurrent to the internet at times. It really puts the whole "SC2 is dying" trend in context.
Well said Patrick about the maturity issue since Starcaft 2 seem to be like a age reset on who playing at the highest level ect.. Starcraft 2 also lack a consistent Champion because Starcraft 2 is still evolving since the game itself is only about 4 years old and Starcraft Brood War is about 15 years old. 5/5 blog for you Patrick.
I love the irony that it seems to be the Brood War fans who are the most reasonable about this whole "SC2 is dying" thing.
For the most part I agree with you, and I think everyone needs to just stop being so damn insecure and enjoy the game. We had a great event last weekend, one of the best in months, let's just enjoy it for once. And BlizzCon of all things is in two weeks! The home of the best memory I *have* of SC2 (MMA vs Mvp). I'm pretty hype.
I don't agree that casters are underappreciated though, the great ones get plenty of love (hell, Day9 was serenaded on stage at WCS) and I think it's fair that some are getting a bit more criticism these days.
On October 29 2013 12:04 Plansix wrote: As one of the most prolific supporters of SC2 on the forums, I support BisusDagger in every way. It was such a bummer to watch the SC2 community become infected with these people who just want tear the game down hiding behind the veil of "criticism". The worst part was that some of these people truly thought they were the majority. The endless, pointless threads complaining about nothing at all just got old and slowly smothered things we enjoyed, like State of the Game.
However, it has been uplifting in the last month to see people trying to take the community and discussion back. More and more people are pushing back against the stupid fucking "design" and deathball threads that litter for forums after every event. Its also nice to see the mods flat out banning useless comments like "SC2 is dying". I love SC2 and the people who play it and I am beyond tired of the endless discussions about region locking, BM and other sudo-ethical bullshit like Naniwa's $500 bounty and if its ok or bad mannered. Why can't we just be pumped about them playing and leave it at that?
But in the end, I think cooler heads and people who love the game will win out. BW is BW and needs to be that. SC2 is its own game with its own heroes, styles and players. I will be happy when the last Kespa player who wants to retire does and everyone who wants to play is all-in on SC2.
5/5 would spotlight and tell all my friends to read twice.
I vehemently disagree with you, though. Your optimism and stuff is great, but you're just advocating the polar opposite.
The discussion and design threads are hella important. SC2 is great, yes. But to stick your head in the sand and say it's perfect is just unproductive. If we'd been more open and realized the problems with SC2 back in 2010 and 2011, we might not've landed in Broodlord-Infestorville in 2012 and we might've corrected some of the problems we're still feeling today. Especially since LotV will likely be announced at BlizzCon, it's so dumb to just say that we should take what we're given and not talk about how it could be better.
Because it's still true. The deathball problem still exists, maps are still samey and lack variety, and the economic layout of mining across multiple bases is still flawed. Denying that problems exist is worse than complaining about them. If we don't complain, how will Blizz know where to focus their efforts when they might be willing to do drastic changes for the last expansion?
Well said Bisudagger. I liked your part about the casters...I've had my share of disliked casters (and I know a great deal dislike me) but I'm not a gigantic douche and call the casters out repeatedly. Saying 'hm...I think they got this wrong' or 'I just don't like their tone/voice/game knowledge etc' when asked is a lot different than going into every thread and bashing a caster. And sometimes people do it in threads that aren't even ABOUT casters or games they casted. D:
Also I know you said Nina's post was unnecessary, but I've always questioned the reasons people have for that...aren't there a lot more SC2 tournaments than BW? And a lot of the tournaments are also three-day style, where preparing for an opponent is impossible and your jetlag/stamina is taxed. AND, the availability of replays is so huge compared to BW. And even if it wasn't, thanks to all the tabs we have and the amount of sheer information we get in each casted game, it's real easy to learn a build order just through watching a VOD. idk, just seems like so much more than 'SC2 is patched too often/too volatile of a game' (regardless if you think it's a good or bad thing).
Anyway yeah...enjoy this boom of SC2 love, because after Blizzcon there will be all the pessimism again. T_T
On October 29 2013 12:22 ShiroKaisen wrote: I love the irony that it seems to be the Brood War fans who are the most reasonable about this whole "SC2 is dying" thing.
For the most part I agree with you, and I think everyone needs to just stop being so damn insecure and enjoy the game. We had a great event last weekend, one of the best in months, let's just enjoy it for once. And BlizzCon of all things is in two weeks! The home of the best memory I *have* of SC2 (MMA vs Mvp). I'm pretty hype.
I don't agree that casters are underappreciated though, the great ones get plenty of love (hell, Day9 was serenaded on stage at WCS) and I think it's fair that some are getting a bit more criticism these days.
On October 29 2013 12:04 Plansix wrote: As one of the most prolific supporters of SC2 on the forums, I support BisusDagger in every way. It was such a bummer to watch the SC2 community become infected with these people who just want tear the game down hiding behind the veil of "criticism". The worst part was that some of these people truly thought they were the majority. The endless, pointless threads complaining about nothing at all just got old and slowly smothered things we enjoyed, like State of the Game.
However, it has been uplifting in the last month to see people trying to take the community and discussion back. More and more people are pushing back against the stupid fucking "design" and deathball threads that litter for forums after every event. Its also nice to see the mods flat out banning useless comments like "SC2 is dying". I love SC2 and the people who play it and I am beyond tired of the endless discussions about region locking, BM and other sudo-ethical bullshit like Naniwa's $500 bounty and if its ok or bad mannered. Why can't we just be pumped about them playing and leave it at that?
But in the end, I think cooler heads and people who love the game will win out. BW is BW and needs to be that. SC2 is its own game with its own heroes, styles and players. I will be happy when the last Kespa player who wants to retire does and everyone who wants to play is all-in on SC2.
5/5 would spotlight and tell all my friends to read twice.
I vehemently disagree with you, though. Your optimism and stuff is great, but you're just advocating the polar opposite.
The discussion and design threads are hella important. SC2 is great, yes. But to stick your head in the sand and say it's perfect is just unproductive. If we'd been more open and realized the problems with SC2 back in 2010 and 2011, we might not've landed in Broodlord-Infestorville in 2012 and we might've corrected some of the problems we're still feeling today. Especially since LotV will likely be announced at BlizzCon, it's so dumb to just say that we should take what we're given and not talk about how it could be better.
Because it's still true. The deathball problem still exists, maps are still samey and lack variety, and the economic layout of mining across multiple bases is still flawed. Denying that problems exist is worse than complaining about them. If we don't complain, how will Blizz know where to focus their efforts when they might be willing to do drastic changes for the last expansion?
Beat me to this. I like this blog, but some of the game design threads and such do deserve to be discussed to make the game better. The game can be better and discussing it will help. I have argued a lot about SC2's flaws but its not because I am one of the doomsday guys saying DIE SC2 DIEEEEEEEEEEEEE. I argue and try get my opinion across because I am sad as to where the game is at as I know the potential is there. I think some people mistake this for just pure negativity when really it is more along the lines of a positive debate for change.
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