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Please read the intro before you comment. =( |
Some random thoughts:
You're underrating Rotterdam. He was definitely better than someone like Hasuobs, who never did much outside the german scene. Rotterdam however played evenly with most players in the world, and often beat Grubby for example. I also think it's unfair to call Check a mediocre korean. When he played NE he was consistently regarded as a top 5 elf player in the world.
Also, never knew GoStop played SC2? What was his ID?
Swain/Showbu was an awesome player around 2003-2004. He was definitely the best human player in the world before the scene exploded. I remember SK.HeMan ridiculing someone who mentioned the european humans were better than him.
Anyone remember how good Zacard and FoV were at certain times? I remember in the time around ESWC 2004, FoV was such an unbeatable beast. And then later Zacard appeared with his mass wind raiders strat, totally dominated everyone. I think he all-killed the Europe team in the Korea vs Europe showmatch iirc. People were so surprised when Grubby beat him in the wcg finals, as he was generally regarded as slightly better than Grubby at that time.
A random not very good, but insanely entertaining player was mYm.Bjarke. Another fun dane to watch was 4k.Kaj. I was always quick to download replays from them, as I knew I would be in for a treat.
I also don't think results in the later years should count for much. Orc was way too imbalanced, as witnessed by the domination of Fly/Lyn/Grubby/Lucifron. Poor undeads.
A very good european undead was 64AMD.WinneR. He was however extremely bad mannered and childish, so he probably never got the recognition he deserved for his skills. He finished third in the prestigeous WEG III tournament, and was the best european undead for a year or so until he started getting too frustrated with Orc, and lost motivation (?). That he beat the korean undeads more than they beat him, was a testament to his skills.
My list would be something like:
(I'm definitely biased in favour the players who were around from 2004-2007, as I feel that was when the scene was at its peak):
1. Moon
2. Grubby
3. Sky
4. Remind
5. ToD
6. Lyn
7. Infi
8. Zacard
9. Sweet
10. Fly
11. FoV
12. TeD
13. Th000
14. Swain/Showbu
15. Creo
16. Lucifer
17. Soju
18. Freedom
19. Madfrog
20. ReiGn
The order from 4-20 are very interchangable really. ToD probably wouldn't be a favorite against most players below him, but he was probably more consistent than any of them, and he won the hardest wc3 tournament there was.
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WC3 had so many really entertaining players that would have unique stylistic traits. I can't remember which player it was, but there was one person that would always try to make blood mage first builds work. He didn't do terribly well, but he managed to get a lot of publicity on the replay sharing sites, and the community would talk about him in discussing whether the blood mage was too weak or not. I don't feel like the same thing exists for SC2, you have less units, less races and play styles are more streamlined. I don't know if this is because the game is so competitive that you can't really afford to drift off into idiosyncrasy and still be relevant or because of some underlying game design factor.
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Hungary11304 Posts
On June 23 2013 23:55 Grumbels wrote:
WC3 had so many really entertaining players that would have unique stylistic traits. I can't remember which player it was, but there was one person that would always try to make blood mage first builds work. He didn't do terribly well, but he managed to get a lot of publicity on the replay sharing sites, and the community would talk about him in discussing whether the blood mage was too weak or not. I don't feel like the same thing exists for SC2, you have less units, less races and play styles are more streamlined. I don't know if this is because the game is so competitive that you can't really afford to drift off into idiosyncrasy and still be relevant or because of some underlying game design factor.
ANGRY_KOREA_MAN I guess?
As for the rest of your post, I guess there was some stylistic diversity, but it was also sparse at a certain level of competition. Orc slapping around UD and NE slapping around Orc from a certain point on got pretty stale.
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On June 20 2013 04:19 dsjoerg wrote:
no such list is complete without ANGRY_KOREA_MAN
rofl yup
'glhf'
'SHUTTUP I HATE YOU'
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On June 24 2013 01:22 Aesop wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2013 23:55 Grumbels wrote:
WC3 had so many really entertaining players that would have unique stylistic traits. I can't remember which player it was, but there was one person that would always try to make blood mage first builds work. He didn't do terribly well, but he managed to get a lot of publicity on the replay sharing sites, and the community would talk about him in discussing whether the blood mage was too weak or not. I don't feel like the same thing exists for SC2, you have less units, less races and play styles are more streamlined. I don't know if this is because the game is so competitive that you can't really afford to drift off into idiosyncrasy and still be relevant or because of some underlying game design factor. ANGRY_KOREA_MAN I guess? As for the rest of your post, I guess there was some stylistic diversity, but it was also sparse at a certain level of competition. Orc slapping around UD and NE slapping around Orc from a certain point on got pretty stale.
I think WC3 < SC2 for pro level play, but that WC3 > SC2 for amateur level play. I think it's because micro is so important that you can make every style work, so it's only at the absolute top that you were forced into always playing the same way, whereas on a lower level it's probably better to become noticed for your unique approach to the game.
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WC3 and Grubby was my childhood, and it is the only game I'm still continue playing after 10 years. So many memories from those times 
Thank you so much Monk for this awesome power ranks.
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Anyone care to explain to an (extremely) casual former warcraft 3 player, who was never aware there was a proscene, why Lucifron was known as an Orc abuser? Also really curious to understand why people always say Undead is the most underpowered. When I play LANs with friends I always found undead the most fun, although that's just at a super casual level.
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On June 24 2013 23:04 xAdra wrote:
Anyone care to explain to an (extremely) casual former warcraft 3 player, who was never aware there was a proscene, why Lucifron was known as an Orc abuser? Also really curious to understand why people always say Undead is the most underpowered. When I play LANs with friends I always found undead the most fun, although that's just at a super casual level.
Once the blademaster hits level 3 he gets free maphack basically and runs around the map tracking your army and annoying the hell out of you, blademaster dps was ridiculous and allowed orcs to dominate by stacking claws and circlets. Undead isn't really that underpowered against any of the other races, but Undead vs Orc is really hard for Undeads. Later when humans started playing around Paladin/MK first strats on certain maps it got really annoying cause divine shield and holy light harass was  (((((
Edit: I think people really underrate Lucifer cause he was slumping so hard by the end of the WC3 scene, but he nearly won back to back ESWCs and was a really dominant player
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United States8476 Posts
To put the UD vs Orc imbalance into perspective, the best Undead vs Orc player in the world, Ted, a player who revolutionized this matchup many times over, only has/had a 51% win rate against Orc. Most other Undeads hovered around the 30%s-40%s. Meanwhile, typical Orc vs UD win rates from the top Orcs in the world ranged from 60% all the way to the low 80%s.
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On June 24 2013 07:02 eieio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 04:19 dsjoerg wrote:
no such list is complete without ANGRY_KOREA_MAN rofl yup 'glhf' 'SHUTTUP I HATE YOU'
<3 <3 <3
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On June 24 2013 23:04 xAdra wrote:
Anyone care to explain to an (extremely) casual former warcraft 3 player, who was never aware there was a proscene, why Lucifron was known as an Orc abuser? Also really curious to understand why people always say Undead is the most underpowered. When I play LANs with friends I always found undead the most fun, although that's just at a super casual level.
Orc abuser would be the same as calling a zerg player at the end of Wings a patchzerg. Lucifron's rise is often considered a side effect of a lot of Orcs all doing well in that time period rather than actual skill. Most of this is rooted in the fact that no one broke into the wc3 scene in the later years; Lucifron is one of the few players who wasn't playing from the start who has some results. He is no Grubby, but I wouldn't just label him as an orc abuser either.
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Thanks for answering everyone, those UD vs Orc winrates were really shocking. What was it about undead that made them particularly susceptible to the Blademaster though? It saddens me to see less than 5 undead players in such a long power rank
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I guess in WC3 the Grubby line would be pretty darn impossible to cross, save for the other two of that top three.
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On June 24 2013 07:02 eieio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2013 04:19 dsjoerg wrote:
no such list is complete without ANGRY_KOREA_MAN rofl yup 'glhf' 'SHUTTUP I HATE YOU'
oh my god, I forgot about him. so many memories of facing him and those damn flamestrike hit n runs.
on that note, who was that orc on East server who only made blademaster/towers/wind riders? God he was annoying to face
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On June 26 2013 01:31 SpiritAshura wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 07:02 eieio wrote:On June 20 2013 04:19 dsjoerg wrote:
no such list is complete without ANGRY_KOREA_MAN rofl yup 'glhf' 'SHUTTUP I HATE YOU' oh my god, I forgot about him. so many memories of facing him and those damn flamestrike hit n runs. on that note, who was that orc on East server who only made blademaster/towers/wind riders? God he was annoying to face
I think you mean the masterbat strategy from Neverquit. Blademaster with mass towers and batriders to snipe your mains.
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OMG !!!! What about russian DEADMAN !! perhaps 5 - 6 in history ranking.
Of course FOV, unbeateable, Lucifer the forever second . Fly100%
Special mention to TH000 , more creative player in history , at same level as Moon, his game was always funny and ofensive, even managing drops as best terran players.
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I think WC3 < SC2 for pro level play, but that WC3 > SC2 for amateur level play. I think it's because micro is so important that you can make every style work, so it's only at the absolute top that you were forced into always playing the same way, whereas on a lower level it's probably better to become noticed for your unique approach to the game.
WC3 >> SC2 in all .
MUCH more micro, and more differents micro-technics , hero use (funniest) , items as Dota or LoL ; little less macro.
At this moment, looking a SC2 replay is more often boring in 80% of cases
W3 replays were always different, not only at amateur levels in pro too, millions of differents strats depending on heroes
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On June 26 2013 08:34 trutoman wrote:
OMG !!!! What about russian DEADMAN !! perhaps 5 - 6 in history ranking.
Of course FOV, unbeateable, Lucifer the forever second . Fly100%
Special mention to TH000 , more creative player in history , at same level as Moon, his game was always funny and ofensive, even managing drops as best terran players.
Didn't DEADMAN hack and got found out?
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On June 26 2013 01:31 SpiritAshura wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2013 07:02 eieio wrote:On June 20 2013 04:19 dsjoerg wrote:
no such list is complete without ANGRY_KOREA_MAN rofl yup 'glhf' 'SHUTTUP I HATE YOU' oh my god, I forgot about him. so many memories of facing him and those damn flamestrike hit n runs. on that note, who was that orc on East server who only made blademaster/towers/wind riders? God he was annoying to face
That would be Towercraft :/ but most people believed that he was a maphacker and there was some pretty strong evidence indicating that he was
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On June 26 2013 14:31 trutoman wrote:Show nested quote +I think WC3 < SC2 for pro level play, but that WC3 > SC2 for amateur level play. I think it's because micro is so important that you can make every style work, so it's only at the absolute top that you were forced into always playing the same way, whereas on a lower level it's probably better to become noticed for your unique approach to the game. WC3 >> SC2 in all . MUCH more micro, and more differents micro-technics , hero use (funniest) , items as Dota or LoL ; little less macro. At this moment, looking a SC2 replay is more often boring in 80% of cases W3 replays were always different, not only at amateur levels in pro too, millions of differents strats depending on heroes
Except that wc3 has blatant imbalance, sc2 doesn't...and it has that random factor in the item drops of creeps, which makes things a little less healthy for the competitive scene.
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EPT
