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DustbinBieber
France276 Posts
On June 21 2013 00:46 Dingodile wrote: mirror is always the most random matchup. It doesn't matter whether wc3, sc1, sc2 or cnc or whatever. Orc mirror on TFT was excessively volatile, all depending on what items the creeps drop and on how many crits your BM lands. Other mirrors (except for SC2 PvP) aren't that random tbh. | ||
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[F_]aths
Germany3947 Posts
On June 21 2013 16:53 DustbinBieber wrote: Orc mirror on TFT was excessively volatile, all depending on what items the creeps drop and on how many crits your BM lands. The crits are not that important, considering the high HP units in WC3 in general and especially for orc, it is more like an overall dps increase. The Blademaders's strength is more about the items you have. But "luck" comes with effort (a good planned out creep route.) | ||
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Outlander23
United States9 Posts
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DaCruise
Denmark2457 Posts
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ggrrg
Bulgaria2716 Posts
Two things I feel like you need to add: Grubby's famous quote: "I have to be honest: playing NE vs Orcs is like shooting handicapped ducks in a barrel. NE's cyclone is too strong and faerie fire lasts too long. Finally, dryads don't give enough experience." Also, the fact that Creolophus made Blizz change the map Terenas Stand after he came up with the completely unbeatable NE vs Orc fast merc strategy. On June 21 2013 16:53 DustbinBieber wrote: Orc mirror on TFT was excessively volatile, all depending on what items the creeps drop and on how many crits your BM lands. Other mirrors (except for SC2 PvP) aren't that random tbh. Tome of GG influenced every matchup though. You're still right that Orc (with blademaster) could benefit much more from some other items and thus made Orc mirror pretty random. However, on maps without "tome of gg" all other mirrors were barely influenced by luck. Actually, I feel like then the better player (almost) always won. | ||
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fleeze
Germany895 Posts
On June 21 2013 18:18 [F_]aths wrote: The crits are not that important, considering the high HP units in WC3 in general and especially for orc, it is more like an overall dps increase. The Blademaders's strength is more about the items you have. But "luck" comes with effort (a good planned out creep route.) still... orc mirror was like the worst matchup. even with a good creep route you were at a BIG disadvantage if you got 2 ring of protection while the other BM has circlet or claws. also there were maps with only one shop (echo isles...) and the fight for the 1 pair of boots decided who could harass easily. | ||
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shell
Portugal2722 Posts
They were that gooooooood! PS: I was a big fan of WC3 and it's star players Grubby/madfrog/Tod | ||
GTR
51660 Posts
On June 21 2013 21:29 fleeze wrote: still... orc mirror was like the worst matchup. even with a good creep route you were at a BIG disadvantage if you got 2 ring of protection while the other BM has circlet or claws. also there were maps with only one shop (echo isles...) and the fight for the 1 pair of boots decided who could harass easily. Wasn't Orc mirror that bad for some players that they would learn NE and off-race just to avoid the coin flip? | ||
monk
United States8477 Posts
On June 22 2013 02:19 GTR wrote: Wasn't Orc mirror that bad for some players that they would learn NE and off-race just to avoid the coin flip? Only xiaoT tried to do that, extremely unsuccessfully I might add. | ||
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Blitzkrieg0
United States13132 Posts
On June 22 2013 02:19 GTR wrote: Wasn't Orc mirror that bad for some players that they would learn NE and off-race just to avoid the coin flip? Offracing as elf was common for human mirror I believe. | ||
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monk
United States8477 Posts
On June 22 2013 02:37 Blitzkrieg0 wrote: Offracing as elf was common for human mirror I believe. Yea, with the way Sky developed the HvH metagame, HvH became a lot more coin-flippy. Basically it went from tier 2 and 3 fights into mass tier 1 footmen with mercenaries and often base trades. | ||
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IRL_Sinister
Ireland621 Posts
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amazingxkcd
GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
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Dingodile
4139 Posts
On June 22 2013 04:19 amazingxkcd wrote: could we have a power rank for any current pros that still play? I'm just curious to know who still plays WC3 these days Lyn #1 TH000/TeD/Moon #2-4 In sc2 only MC and Violet have nice english. In wc3 Susiria, Remind, Lucifer, Lyn. FoV with english and chinese  | ||
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RuMCaKe
United States559 Posts
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Elem
Sweden4717 Posts
On that topic I also find it amusing how you make Sky seem like a strategical genius. Sky was a mechanical player, similar to Happy but not as disgustingly predictable. Moon made strategies beyond your imagination. His strategies were so bullshit that people couldn't copy half of them. And no mention of Moon's utter dominance of the NE vs UD MU? It makes JvZ or Savior vs T and similar look like nothing. I also do not see why you rate RotterdaM so lowly. He honestly had godtier Orc vs Orc, far better than any foreigner. He would often choke vs Grubby though, so the part where he isn't listed very high is understandable. You do not give him the credit he deserves though. On positive notes, very glad you give Creo the credit he very much deserves. Guy was really fun to play with and to talk to. He made WCG 2007 so fucking awesome, him beating Sky in the finals was one of the best moments in WC3 imo. I am very butthurt about the first point though and I demand a thorough explanation for it. I find it very disgusting that you'd actually pull that one. I may be mildly biased as I am a real fanatic when it comes to anything that has to do with Moon but really, Grubby was below him and Sky for sure. | ||
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1Dhalism
862 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/tlpd/sc2-beta/players/1590_Insomnia | ||
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Schelim
Austria11528 Posts
On June 22 2013 05:46 Elem wrote: Why do you include Grubby in the "top"? Really, I do not understand it. Are you baiting anyone who isn't a raving fanboy of him? Grubby was definitively below Sky and Moon. He contributed fuck all to Orc strats compared to what they did and is shot up to the skies since he was a foreigner. I feel same with ToD. Infi and Remind were definitively stronger than him. On that topic I also find it amusing how you make Sky seem like a strategical genius. Sky was a mechanical player, similar to Happy but not as disgustingly predictable. Moon made strategies beyond your imagination. His strategies were so bullshit that people couldn't copy half of them. And no mention of Moon's utter dominance of the NE vs UD MU? It makes JvZ or Savior vs T and similar look like nothing. I also do not see why you rate RotterdaM so lowly. He honestly had godtier Orc vs Orc, far better than any foreigner. He would often choke vs Grubby though, so the part where he isn't listed very high is understandable. You do not give him the credit he deserves though. On positive notes, very glad you give Creo the credit he very much deserves. Guy was really fun to play with and to talk to. He made WCG 2007 so fucking awesome, him beating Sky in the finals was one of the best moments in WC3 imo. I am very butthurt about the first point though and I demand a thorough explanation for it. I find it very disgusting that you'd actually pull that one. I may be mildly biased as I am a real fanatic when it comes to anything that has to do with Moon but really, Grubby was below him and Sky for sure. what the hell? in what period did you follow war3? Grubby, Moon and Sky in some order are basically agreed upon by the whole community to be the top 3 players to ever touch the game. check out Grubby's achievements: + Show Spoiler + 1st Place – Cyber X Games, 2003 (Las Vegas – USA) 1st Place – CPL Turkey, 2004 (Istanbul – Turkey) 1st Place – World Cyber Games '04, 2004 (San Francisco – USA) 1st Place – Samsung Euro Championship '05, 2005 (Hannover – Germany) 1st Place – Revelcell Masters, 2005 (Berlin – Germany) 1st Place – Electronic Sports World Cup '05, 2005 (Paris – France) 1st Place – Digital Life Gaming Tournament, 2005 (New York – USA) 1st Place – BlizzCon '05, 2005 (Los Angeles – USA) 3rd Place – World Cyber Games '05, 2005 (Singapore – Singapore) 2nd Place – Blizzard Worldwide Invitational '06, 2006 (Seoul – South Korea) 1st Place – Samsung European Championship '06, 2006 (Hannover – Germany) 2nd Place – World e-Sports Games Masters '06, 2006 (Hangzhou – China) 1st Place – V-Sports All-Stars, 2006 (New York – USA) 1st Place – World E-Sports Festival, 2006 (Qingdao – China) 2nd Place – ClanBase EuroCup 12, 2006 (Copenhagen – Denmark) 1st Place – WSVG Qualifier, October 2006, (London – UK) 1st Place – WSVG Grand Finals, December 2006, (New York – USA) 3rd Place – KODE5 2006, September 2006, (Beijing – China) 1st Place – Warcraft World War, October 2006, (Seoul – South Korea) 2nd Place – SuperFight II, November 2006, (Seoul – South Korea) 3rd Place – Battlenet Season 4, January 2007, (Cologne -Germany) 1st Place – Warcraft World War, February 2007, (Seoul – South Korea) 3rd Place – European Cyber Games, March 2007, (Hannover – Germany) 4th Place – World Series of Video Games, May 2007, (Wuhan – China) 3rd Place – Blizzard Worldwide Invitational, May 2007, (Los Angeles – USA) 1st Place – ESWC Dutch Qualifiers, 20 May 2007, (Enschede – Netherlands) 3rd Place – Battlenet Season 5 Europe Finals, 22–23 June 2007, (Hamburg – Germany) 3rd Place – ESWC Global Finals, 5–8 July, (Paris- France) 2nd Place – Stars War IV, 12–15 July, (Shanghai – China) 5th Place – PGL Season 2, 17–26 July 2007, (Beijing – China) 3rd Place – W3 Summer Grand Prix, 28–29 July 2007, (Seoul – South Korea) 3rd Place – Blizzcon 2007, 3–5 August 2007, (Orange County – California – USA) 3rd Place – eStars 2007, 11–12 August 2007 (Shared 3rd/4th), (Seoul – South Korea) 1st Place – WCG Dutch Finals, 30 August 2007, (Rotterdam – Netherlands) 1st Place – Clanbase EuroCup 2007, 8–9 September 2007, (Enschede – Netherlands) 1st Place – KODE5 Dutch Qualifiers, 27–28 October 2007, (Enschede – Netherlands) 1st Place – DreamHack Winter, November 2007, (Jönköping – Sweden) 2nd Place – Extreme Masters Season II, March 2008, (Hannover – Germany) 1st Place – ESWC Netherlands Qualifier 2008, 7 June 2008, (Enschede – Netherlands) 3rd Place – Blizzard Worldwide Invitational 2008, 28–29 June 2008, (Paris – France) 1st Place – WCG Netherlands Qualifier 2008, 12 July 2008, (Rotterdam – Netherlands) 1st Place – eStars Seoul, 24–27 July 2008, (Seoul – South Korea) 1st Place – EPS Benelux, 6 September 2008, (Utrecht – Netherlands) 1st Place – WCG Dutch Finals, 27 September 2008, (Amsterdam – Netherlands) 3rd Place – World e-Sports Masters 2008, 24–2 Oct–Nov 2008, (Hangzhou – China) 1st Place – World Cyber Games 2008, 5–9 November 2008, (Cologne – Germany) 1st Place – Extreme Masters III – Korea, 13–20 November 2008, (Seoul – South Korea) 2nd Place – Extreme Masters III – China, January 2009, (Chengdu – China) 2nd Place – Blizzard Battle.net Season 7 – Europe Regionals, June 2009 (Cologne – Germany) 1st Place – e-Stars 2009 – King of the Game, July 2009 (Seoul – South Korea) 2nd Place – BlizzCon 2009, August 2009 (Orange County – California – USA) 1st Place – World e-Sports Masters 2009, December 2009 (Hangzhou – China) 1st Place – Blizzard Season 8 European Regionals (Cologne – Germany) 2nd Place – e-Stars 2010 – King of the Game (Seoul – South Korea) 2nd Place – WCG 2010, October 2010 (LA – USA) from his wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grubby#Warcraft_3 he may not have innovated much, but he executed Orc play at the highest level and was around the top of the scene for longer than any other Orc player in the world. | ||
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Elem
Sweden4717 Posts
On June 22 2013 06:27 Schelim wrote: what the hell? in what period did you follow war3? Grubby, Moon and Sky in some order are basically agreed upon by the whole community to be the top 3 players to ever touch the game. check out Grubby's achievements: + Show Spoiler + 1st Place – Cyber X Games, 2003 (Las Vegas – USA) 1st Place – CPL Turkey, 2004 (Istanbul – Turkey) 1st Place – World Cyber Games '04, 2004 (San Francisco – USA) 1st Place – Samsung Euro Championship '05, 2005 (Hannover – Germany) 1st Place – Revelcell Masters, 2005 (Berlin – Germany) 1st Place – Electronic Sports World Cup '05, 2005 (Paris – France) 1st Place – Digital Life Gaming Tournament, 2005 (New York – USA) 1st Place – BlizzCon '05, 2005 (Los Angeles – USA) 3rd Place – World Cyber Games '05, 2005 (Singapore – Singapore) 2nd Place – Blizzard Worldwide Invitational '06, 2006 (Seoul – South Korea) 1st Place – Samsung European Championship '06, 2006 (Hannover – Germany) 2nd Place – World e-Sports Games Masters '06, 2006 (Hangzhou – China) 1st Place – V-Sports All-Stars, 2006 (New York – USA) 1st Place – World E-Sports Festival, 2006 (Qingdao – China) 2nd Place – ClanBase EuroCup 12, 2006 (Copenhagen – Denmark) 1st Place – WSVG Qualifier, October 2006, (London – UK) 1st Place – WSVG Grand Finals, December 2006, (New York – USA) 3rd Place – KODE5 2006, September 2006, (Beijing – China) 1st Place – Warcraft World War, October 2006, (Seoul – South Korea) 2nd Place – SuperFight II, November 2006, (Seoul – South Korea) 3rd Place – Battlenet Season 4, January 2007, (Cologne -Germany) 1st Place – Warcraft World War, February 2007, (Seoul – South Korea) 3rd Place – European Cyber Games, March 2007, (Hannover – Germany) 4th Place – World Series of Video Games, May 2007, (Wuhan – China) 3rd Place – Blizzard Worldwide Invitational, May 2007, (Los Angeles – USA) 1st Place – ESWC Dutch Qualifiers, 20 May 2007, (Enschede – Netherlands) 3rd Place – Battlenet Season 5 Europe Finals, 22–23 June 2007, (Hamburg – Germany) 3rd Place – ESWC Global Finals, 5–8 July, (Paris- France) 2nd Place – Stars War IV, 12–15 July, (Shanghai – China) 5th Place – PGL Season 2, 17–26 July 2007, (Beijing – China) 3rd Place – W3 Summer Grand Prix, 28–29 July 2007, (Seoul – South Korea) 3rd Place – Blizzcon 2007, 3–5 August 2007, (Orange County – California – USA) 3rd Place – eStars 2007, 11–12 August 2007 (Shared 3rd/4th), (Seoul – South Korea) 1st Place – WCG Dutch Finals, 30 August 2007, (Rotterdam – Netherlands) 1st Place – Clanbase EuroCup 2007, 8–9 September 2007, (Enschede – Netherlands) 1st Place – KODE5 Dutch Qualifiers, 27–28 October 2007, (Enschede – Netherlands) 1st Place – DreamHack Winter, November 2007, (Jönköping – Sweden) 2nd Place – Extreme Masters Season II, March 2008, (Hannover – Germany) 1st Place – ESWC Netherlands Qualifier 2008, 7 June 2008, (Enschede – Netherlands) 3rd Place – Blizzard Worldwide Invitational 2008, 28–29 June 2008, (Paris – France) 1st Place – WCG Netherlands Qualifier 2008, 12 July 2008, (Rotterdam – Netherlands) 1st Place – eStars Seoul, 24–27 July 2008, (Seoul – South Korea) 1st Place – EPS Benelux, 6 September 2008, (Utrecht – Netherlands) 1st Place – WCG Dutch Finals, 27 September 2008, (Amsterdam – Netherlands) 3rd Place – World e-Sports Masters 2008, 24–2 Oct–Nov 2008, (Hangzhou – China) 1st Place – World Cyber Games 2008, 5–9 November 2008, (Cologne – Germany) 1st Place – Extreme Masters III – Korea, 13–20 November 2008, (Seoul – South Korea) 2nd Place – Extreme Masters III – China, January 2009, (Chengdu – China) 2nd Place – Blizzard Battle.net Season 7 – Europe Regionals, June 2009 (Cologne – Germany) 1st Place – e-Stars 2009 – King of the Game, July 2009 (Seoul – South Korea) 2nd Place – BlizzCon 2009, August 2009 (Orange County – California – USA) 1st Place – World e-Sports Masters 2009, December 2009 (Hangzhou – China) 1st Place – Blizzard Season 8 European Regionals (Cologne – Germany) 2nd Place – e-Stars 2010 – King of the Game (Seoul – South Korea) 2nd Place – WCG 2010, October 2010 (LA – USA) from his wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grubby#Warcraft_3 he may not have innovated much, but he executed Orc play at the highest level and was around the top of the scene for longer than any other Orc player in the world. I followed WC3 since before TFT up until 2011. After that I only follow the more large scale tournaments ( likeG-League, WCG) Half of those tournaments there are mid tier or low tier tournaments (relatively). I'm not saying Grubby is bad. He is definitively #3 and quite a way above Lyn, but he simply does not compare to the top 2. No way. Do not take it as if I'm saying Grubby is trash and not top 3. | ||
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E.L.V.I.S
Belgium458 Posts
On June 21 2013 16:53 DustbinBieber wrote: Orc mirror on TFT was excessively volatile, all depending on what items the creeps drop and on how many crits your BM lands. Other mirrors (except for SC2 PvP) aren't that random tbh. ahaha yeah I remember a grubby vs lucifron game where grubby only got rings and the item of vitality (+150) and luci only had good claws, was funny ^^ by the way dowaq, thomasg, abver and rosenkill were playing too (see 3 links for proofs ^^ thomasg renamed cupcake and was gm not so long ago) http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/DowaQ http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=315864 | ||
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