TL has its roots in BW and most of its users are familiar with the BW scene. However, many of the professional players playing SC2 today, including most of the top foreigners, come from WC3 roots. Here is an attempt to bridge that gap of knowledge and another opportunity for you guys to argue among yourselves over a Power Rank.
This power rank only includes players who dabbled in SC2 and mostly serves to give an idea of how good the top players today were in WC3. The most notable players who never tried to switch include: Fly, TH000, Ted, Lucifer, Fov, Sweet, Reign, SoJu, Zacard, Insomnia, Deadman, and HoT.
Note that I'm ranking mostly based on overall achievements. Players will get bonus points points for being in the scene longer. Ranking based on other criteria would result in different placements, especially for the top players.
Unofficial TL WC3 Power Rank
1. Grubby(O)/Moon(NE)/Sky(H) There is no question that these three players are the best of their respective regions (Europe/Korea/China). However, there is consistent debate as to which of these players is the best and I'm not going to fuel that fire. Instead, I'll list each player's merits and have you decide.
Grubby was always the face of foreign Warcraft III. He dominated foreign WC3 and was always considered the best foreigner since 2004 when he won WCG over Zacard. Since then, he's won multiple WCGs, ESWCs, and Blizzcons, the most successful player in tournaments that aren't hosting in Korea or China. Grubby slumped around 2007, a time when he and other Orcs were having trouble with NE and especially Human. He eventually rebounded though and was considered the best out of the big three at the end of WC3. When asked about who he thinks is the best player of all time, Grubby simply calmly states that he has been the most consistent of the three over the longest period of time. To his credit, this is true as even though Grubby had his slumps, he never sank as low as the other two. The opposite argument is that he arguably was never as dominant as the other two. Playstyle-wise, Grubby was one of the smartest players, often winning games that many thought were unwinnable. WC3 played to Grubby's strengths in this way because it was a game that had a lot of potential decisions and allowed for comebacks.
Achievements
1st Cyber X Gaming
1st WCG 2004
1st ESWC 2005
1st Blizzcon 2005
3rd WCG 2005
2nd Blizzard WWI 2006
2nd WEG Masters
3rd KODE5
1st WSVG 2006
3rd BNet Season IV
4th WSVG China
3rd ESWC 2007
3rd Battle.Net Season V (BlizzCon)
3rd Blizzard WWI 2008
3rd World e-Sports Masters
1st WCG 2008
1st e-Stars Seoul 2009 Kotg
2nd Battle.Net Season VII (BlizzCon)
2nd NGL-ONE Season 6
2nd e-Stars Seoul 2010 Kotg
4th BNet Season VIII (BlizzCon)
2nd WCG 2010
Moon probably had the highest peak out of all three players. He dominated tournaments in Korea before either Grubby or Sky made a mark onto the scene. He famously had 16 map winning streak in WEG, winning the first one without dropping a single map using seemingly troll strategies along the way. Some examples include charming one of Tod's peasants and killing him with Human units or using all glaive thrower strategies. He was always one of the top three players in the world until the end of WC3 and around 2007, he would almost always meet Sky in tournaments, the winner usually taking the title. However, Moon slumped fairly hard near the end of WC3 when he stopped being the absolute favorite in tournaments.
Achievements
1st WEG1
1st WEG2
4th WEG Masters
1st IEST
1st Game-X
1st WSVG China
4th Blizzard WWI 2007
3rd WCG 2007
1st PGL2
2nd PGL3
4th World e-Sports Masters
2nd WCG 2008
1st IEST 2008
4th e-Stars Seoul 2009 Kotg
1st NGL-ONE Season 6
1st e-Stars Seoul 2010 Kotg
3rd BNet Season VIII (BlizzCon)
2nd ESWC 2010
1st IEST 2011
Sky entered the scene relatively late compared to the other two players, but he made an incredible splash when he won 2005. Since then, he has been akin to Boxer in China, i.e. the face of Chinese esports. In the game, he revolutionized and standardized every Human matchup with the help of his Chinese Human counterparts, Infi and TH000. These include:
Tier 1 harass, mercenaries, and Panda in HvH
Tower pushes and expo to mass gryphon in HvO
Mass tank/flying machine in HvU
1 base pushes, mass tank/flying machine, and 2 base pushes in HvNE
His Human vs Human was so good(71%) that other Chinese Humans always offraced as Night Elf to face him. After Tod quit, Human vs Human basically became a non-existent matchup in the pro scene. Like Moon however, he slumped near the end of WC3 where other humans such as TH000 and Infi overtook him. Today, he coaches the World Elite LoL/Dota team.
Achievements
3rd WEG 1
1st ACON 5
4th ESWC 2005
1st WCG 2005
3rd WEG Masters
1st PGL I
3rd ESWC 2006
1st WCG 2006
2nd IEST 2006
2nd WSVG China
3rd/4th Blizzard WWI 2007
2nd WCG 2007
2nd PGL II
3rd PGL III
2nd ESWC 2008
2nd IEST 2008
2nd PGL IV
1st PGL Championship Challenge
2nd WCG 2011
4. Lyn(O) Lyn is undoubtedly the second best Korean ever. He had played during the beginning of TFT, notably losing to Moon in a finals. Then he fell off the radar for a while(he might have briefly quit) before he came back with a vengeance. From 2007 onward, he was consistently one of the top players and probably better than Grubby overall except for a few short periods. He had exceptional micro and contributed the addition of spirit walkers to Orc vs Undead.
Achievements
4th ESWC 2007
2nd Blizzard WWI 2008
1st BNet Season VI (BlizzCon)
2nd World e-Sports Masters
2nd e-Stars Seoul 2009 Kotg
1st BNet Season VII (BlizzCon)
3rd WCG 2009
3rd NGL-ONE Season 6
3rd e-Stars Seoul 2010 Kotg
2nd ESWC 2010
3rd WCG 2010
2nd IEST 2011
1st WCG 2011
5. Tod(H) Tod was definitively the second best European player, but always took a backseat to Grubby, especially when they were on 4K together. Tod is the face of European humans, adopting a more classical style of human compared to the more modern style of Chinese humans. Tod's biggest accomplishment is perhaps that he won the most prestigious WC3 tournament ever, WEG Masters. He trained in both Korean and China, but quit the game about a year before SC2 was released due to not enjoying it anymore.
Achievements
4th ESWC 2003
3rd WCG 2004
3rd Blizzcon 2007
2nd CIG 2005
2nd World e-Sports Festival
2nd KODE5
2nd WCG 2006
4th BNet Season IV
1st Blizzard WWI 2007
3rd IEST 2008
6. Infi(H) Infi was seen as Sky's younger sibling as they were on the same team and shared strategies. His most defining trait was his usage of towers, whether defensively or offensively. It was not uncommon for to see an Infi game with over 100 towers built. At the end of WC3, he surpassed Sky in skill.
Achievements
1st KODE5
1st World e-Sports Masters
4th IESF 2008
3rd/4th PGL IV
1st WCG 2009
2nd IESF 2009
2nd BNet Season VIII (BlizzCon)
1st IESF 2010
3rd IESF 2011
7. Remind(NE) Remind had excellent micro and would have been one of the greats had he not been so terrible against Undead early in his career. Then one day, he suddenly figured the matchup out and started realized his potential. Ever since 2007, he had gradually been getting better and he peaked near the end of WC3 and was considered one of the best, if not the best, in the world when he won WCG 2010 over Grubby. He was also part of the best 2v2 team ever in WC3 with SoJu where he played his offrace, Orc
Achievements
2nd ACON 5
4th CIG
1st BNet Season IV
2nd BNet Season V (BlizzCon)
1st BNet Season VIII (BlizzCon)
3rd ESWC 2010
1st WCG 2010
8. Creolophus(NE) Creolophus was a prodigy who shares many characteristics with Snute and Stephano. Like Snute, he is a charismatic Norwegian. Likewise, he shares even more with Stephano:
They're both intelligent player, often aiming to outsmart their opponents with efficiency.
Both are nearly undefeated against Grubby(Creo was completely undefeated against him after joining 4k)
Most importantly, they quit(or plan to quite) the game near their respective peaks.
However, after quitting the game for a few months, he qualified for WCG and after a few days of training, went on to win the whole thing, beating heavy favorite Sky in the finals in perhaps the biggest upset in WC3 history.
Achievements
2nd ESWC 2007
1st BNet Season V (BlizzCon)
1st WCG 2007
8.5 Madfrog(U) Madfrog is difficult to place, because although he was one of the most successful players and a WC3 legend, he quit the game before WC3 competition really took off. He mostly famously popularized gargoyle harass in NE, a cornerstone of the matchup until late in WC3.
Achievements
2nd ESWC 2003
1st Blizzard WWI 2004
2nd ESWC 2004
9. Lucifron(O) WC3 was often regarded as a old boy's club as very few players could break into the scene. Lucifron was one of the only two players, along with Violet, who accomplished this. However, unfortunately many discredit him for abusing Orc, similar to how the SC2 scene calls WoL Zergs patchzergs.
Achievements
2nd BNet Season VI (BlizzCon)
10. Soccer(NE) Aka SlayerS_Ven, Soccer was one of the best players near the end of WC3. He was especially known for his NE vs Human and his Warden usage in all matchups. Because he was on MYM and then WMF with Moon, he was often referred to as mini-Moon.
Achievements
3rd BNet Season VII (BlizzCon)
2nd KODE5
11. GoStop(U) Called the Nerubian King for his successful usage of crypt fiends. Almost beat Moon 2-3 in WEG2. He quit in 2007.
Achievements
2nd WEG III
2nd WEG II
12. Check(NE) Check has been around forever in the WC3 scene, and though he has always been relevant, he was always considered mediocre for a Korean late into his career. He's also known for his relatively low APM for a Korean. He switched to Orc for a brief period during early WC3.
Achievements
4th PGL I
4th BNet Season VI (BlizzCon)
4th PGL Championship Challenge
13. Focus(O) One of the better Korean players, Focus was consistently relevant starting from when he started playing in 2007, but never surpassed the Korean greats in tournaments. He won a lot of Zotac cups though. He tried SC2 for one GSL season but returned back to China to play WC3. He still plays WC3 to this day I believe.
Achievements
4th NGL-ONE Season 6
14. Violet(O) Like Lucifron, Violet is the other player who really broke into the scene late into the game and did quite well online. Because of his Korean heritage however, he very rarely got to go overseas because of the difficulty of qualifying for offline tournaments via Korean qualifiers.
15. Happy(U) Happy is mainly known for two things:
He had good micro and extremely high APM.
He only ever had four strategies total, one against each race. As such, he is probably the most predictable player in all of esports.
Besides that, he was the third best foreigner at the end of WC3, after only Grubby and Lucifron. He was also a bit BM and was on EG with Grubby.
Achievements
3rd BNet Season VI (BlizzCon)
3rd WCG 2008
4th WCG 2009
4th e-Stars Seoul 2010 Kotg
4th ESWC 2010
16. SaSe(NE) SaSe lived in China for a very long time to train and almost always reached the top 16 of tournaments. He was certainly capable of beating anyone, but has never won an international tournament.
Achievements
4th World e-Sports Festival
17. xiaoT(O) Once the second best Chinese player after Sky, xiaoT's results eventually fell off and he quit the game. His OvO was especially weak in a time when Orc was doing well. He promised to returned in SC2 and dominate, but he quickly gave up on that as well.
Achievements
4th PGL II
18. Xlord(U) Hands down, the best German player in WC3. He was restricted from competing in EPS tournaments early on because of his young age. Also known for being BM, something his teammate, miou, once famously complained about.
19. Demuslim(H) A promising player who joined 4k right before it collapsed. After that, he seemed to disappear from the scene.
20. Satiini(NE) A curious NE who never went to lans because he had a fear of traveling.
21. Hasuobs(U) Another great German player. He had some epic games versus Moon with mass gargoyles.
Achievements
4th KODE 5
21. miou(H) Yet another great German who dominated EPS before Xlord was allowed to play. Achievements
4th ACON 5
(Around this point, it gets a bit arbitrary. I'm still trying to list in relative skill though.)
ThorZaiN(H): Started quite late and was getting good near the end of WC3
Macsed(NE): Was consistently overshadowed by other Chinese players and was probably better than this ranking suggests.
Rotterdam(O): Known for using Farseer when everyone used Blademaster. Also known for being good at OvO and sometimes qualifying over Grubby in Dutch qualifiers.
Ciara(O): Known for being recruited onto EG so they could have a third player to play team leagues with.
Titan(NE): One of the better Russians near the end of WC3
Nightend(U): An underrated Undead player.
Vortix(U): Was way overshadowed by his brother. However, in interviews, Lucifron stated that Vortix had a better win ratio against him than any other Undead in the world.
Kas(H): Known for getting into semifinals of online cups
Elfiittaja(U): A decent Undead.
Targa(NE): Honestly don't remember much
Naama(?): Was the brother of another WC3 player, Sein. Otherwise, don't remember much.
Kiwikaki(O):: Probably the second best player from North America near the end of WC3, overshadowed only by Nilknarf.
Naniwa(U): Known more for BM than skill
Stephano(H): I can't recall any major accomplishments, but he did go to LANs and went a bit far into cups.
SjoW(H): Known for being a part of the best 2v2 team with Delicato in early WC3.
Bly4eg(U): Mostly online player
Cruncher(U): One of the better North Americans near the end of WC3
Moonglade(NE): A night elf. Possibly higher, I don't remember much.
Take(H): I just remember it being funny that he was on the same team as a player named tak3r.
Axslav(R): Known for his 2v2 team with Strifeco. They both massed huntresses and consistently beat all other top teams which consisted of top 1v1 players. Played random in WC3.
Strifeco(NE): see Axslav Outliers
Polt(?): Qualified for Korean MBC Prime League in 2005-2006, but never made it very deep at all. He was restricted by school and didn't play full-time.
Select(NE): Did well on Korean ladder but never made huge accomplishments and only played for a short period of time.
great effort! But it's pretty far off from an in-depth analysis, you are missing quite a lot of players that were siginificant figures in WarCraft 3 history. For example FoV, who was considered the best undead in the world for a long period of time. His ghoul micro was unmatched and he also won ESWC. Esportsearnings provides somewhat of an overview: http://www.esportsearnings.com/games/8/warcraft_iii
Definitely my favourite blog now! XlorD really was a beast, he won 3 eps in a row and went 15-0 or 14-1 in one season, no one could touch him. He also played even series against koreans like Moon etc., but I feel you forgot an important german player that carried the hopes of Germany at the end of wc3 and that is Yaws.
Edit: Ah damn Yaws never really went into sc2 so he doesn't fit this ranking I guess, sorry :D.
The good ol times :D I fondly remember the German Trio of Miou, Take and Tak3er. Mass Defensive Tower Miou, Standart Take, and cheeky towerrush Tak3er (I believe he found for example the towerspot on plunder isle that made this map a bitch to play on :D)
Thanks for the writeup :D
€: But wasnt Take on SK while Tak3er was on mTw?
€2:
On June 19 2013 18:08 theonlyking wrote: great effort! But it's pretty far off from an in-depth analysis, you are missing quite a lot of players that were siginificant figures in WarCraft 3 history. For example FoV, [...]
I think the Op wanted to focus on WC3 players that are known in the SC2 scene aswell (hence why he left out my hero Tak3er)
xiaOt did switch to SC2, but retired to manage iG's SC2 division (no idea if he still is). Focus also played one season of GSL (first open) under the ID of BEV.
So sad I never came into contact with E sports when I was younger. I played a shitton of wc3 but I never thought of the idea of watching pro players back then. Or to visit a forum...
Ima back your nostalgic blog with some judgement and trivia (not bashing by any mean )
- Moon: 3-0 rigged orc, dominate with broken hand, perfect the gayest strat, 10-0 FoCuS race-switch, had all the best ID & nickname etc etc - Grubby: basetrade, basetrade & basetrade, write emo linkin park blog for excuse & tons of lame shit I cant recall - Sky: got raped in WEGs, won WCG the same year, won another WCG by watching GoStop's replay - Lyn: win 200000 InCups before raising to prominence with WE - Infi: shameless tower masser - MaD]Q[FroG: signed with Sonokong FrienZ, won some teamleague, voted mvp on MBC - LucifroN: strictly race abuser and nothing else - SocceR: actually oldschool (Rhapsody[Pooh] on Kalimdor), played great every once in a while and won nothing - Check: dubbed the "Fever Blood", the most fearsome Korean in RoC & early TFT, won back-2-back OGN leagues, still top20 for the remaining of TFT career - Violet: from WeRRa, decent BattleNet orc who went on to be a race abuser - XlorD: known as sexLord when hes good & Shitlord when hes not. kicked out from SK/SK.de for some incident I cant recall - miou: the inferior German human counterpart of Spell (who was the best german player ever) - Ciara: decent WC3L player for his time at mYm.dk and MYM, more known for his relationship with JacziE the famous caster - Polt (HU): went to the 2nd round of MWL (a rebirth-MBC PL), played some WC3L as well and then disappeared - SeleCT: YECA-->SK.kr-->Warhammer-->TmG-->Warhammer again
Some others: - Myth: he tried out some Open Seasons under Prime. The dude mastered the second gayest strat ever invented aka human massing expos with towers and killing with tanks (Moon was the very first victim) - Rainbow: tried out Open Seasons under LiberoPrime. Fastest wc3 ever with 400-500apm in 50 mins games. Dubbed the bandit-human for wearing a bandit-like headband. - GoStop: Moon's sweet sweet next-door best friend. Dubbed the Nerubian King for being the first effective fiend user with style (screw PhilBot). Tried out Open Season but failed - DayFly: play a lot during beta & early WoL. The most legendary Korean imo. He didnt only dominate RoC, early TFT but also unveiled the map scandal and brought Warcraft to China. Oh and he dated Cassandra before Grubby xD
Nice stuff and a great memories! Also Naama used to play orc and was a higly ranked ladder player before switching to SC2. All I know about Polts WC3 career is that he used to play human
I remember hearing a rumor on chinese forums about when Th000 first came into the scene, that sky had found him, played him in like 4 games where th000 offraced HvO, HvU and HvN than HvH and th000 won 3 or 4 of the games. At first i was kinda...riiiight... but soon after he was freaken amazing (my eyes best Hu player, he still plays on ggc), especially with his offrace hes unbelievably strong with offraces. Plus i love his crazy Hu vs Ud builds, 1 base lumber mill rax tech into hawks....like WHAT the fuck lol (he won that game too) too bad he gets made fun of because of his name lololol 000 hahaha >.<
On June 19 2013 19:04 Grumbels wrote: Spirit_Moon is like Slayers_Boxer.
The Boxer of WC3. But in terms of general popularity in Korea - not even close. While literally everyone knows the name 'Im Yo-hwan', and some maybe 'Lee Yoon-yeol', a small minority recognized 'Jang Jae-ho'.
nice a WC3 power rank. but unfortunately not really objective at that.
Grubby (even tied at 1) > Lyn and ToD top 5? as much as i like ToD and Grubby, but this is just not true. Grubby < Fly100% and Lyn. especially Fly100% (and Xiaot too) has a really good record against Grubby (and Moon) in the big Tournaments. Xiaot and Fly100% is even missing in the list at all. also, worst mistake ever with a WC3 list: where are the UDs? especially where is Sweet and Fov? Madfrog is listed yet the most influental and best playing UDs are missing? also there are WAY worse UDs listed and those two missing, but having an Xlord on the list makes it pretty much invalid. "newer" players like TH000 are also missing.
edit: just read the first part about only listing sc2 players. don't agree with this. and why is remind listed then? he clearly said he will never switch. or creolophus...
On June 19 2013 18:18 GTR wrote: xiaOt did switch to SC2, but retired to manage iG's SC2 division (no idea if he still is). Focus also played one season of GSL (first open) under the ID of BEV.
Cool, I'll add them in.
On June 19 2013 18:08 theonlyking wrote: great effort! But it's pretty far off from an in-depth analysis, you are missing quite a lot of players that were siginificant figures in WarCraft 3 history. For example FoV, who was considered the best undead in the world for a long period of time. His ghoul micro was unmatched and he also won ESWC. Esportsearnings provides somewhat of an overview: http://www.esportsearnings.com/games/8/warcraft_iii
Only sc2 players or sc2 related players
On June 19 2013 19:54 fleeze wrote: nice a WC3 power rank. but unfortunately not really objective at that.
Grubby (even tied at 1) > Lyn and ToD top 5? as much as i like ToD and Grubby, but this is just not true. Grubby < Fly100% and Lyn. especially Fly100% (and Xiaot too) has a really good record against Grubby (and Moon) in the big Tournaments. Xiaot and Fly100% is even missing in the list at all. also, worst mistake ever with a WC3 list: where are the UDs? especially where is Sweet and Fov? Madfrog is listed yet the most influental and best playing UDs are missing? also there are WAY worse UDs listed and those two missing, but having an Xlord on the list makes it pretty much invalid. "newer" players like TH000 are also missing.
edit: just read the first part about only listing sc2 players. don't agree with this. and why is remind listed then? he clearly said he will never switch. or creolophus...
Most people you ask would rank moon/sky/grubby 1/2/3 in some order. Remind tried to qualify for GSL one time and there was a big deal about it. Creolophus coached a SC2 team. Listing non sc2 players would make it even more confusing.
On June 19 2013 18:08 theonlyking wrote: great effort! But it's pretty far off from an in-depth analysis, you are missing quite a lot of players that were siginificant figures in WarCraft 3 history. For example FoV, who was considered the best undead in the world for a long period of time. His ghoul micro was unmatched and he also won ESWC. Esportsearnings provides somewhat of an overview: http://www.esportsearnings.com/games/8/warcraft_iii
On June 19 2013 19:54 fleeze wrote: nice a WC3 power rank. but unfortunately not really objective at that.
Grubby (even tied at 1) > Lyn and ToD top 5? as much as i like ToD and Grubby, but this is just not true. Grubby < Fly100% and Lyn. especially Fly100% (and Xiaot too) has a really good record against Grubby (and Moon) in the big Tournaments. Xiaot and Fly100% is even missing in the list at all. also, worst mistake ever with a WC3 list: where are the UDs? especially where is Sweet and Fov? Madfrog is listed yet the most influental and best playing UDs are missing? also there are WAY worse UDs listed and those two missing, but having an Xlord on the list makes it pretty much invalid. "newer" players like TH000 are also missing.
edit: just read the first part about only listing sc2 players. don't agree with this. and why is remind listed then? he clearly said he will never switch. or creolophus...
Most people you ask would rank moon/sky/grubby 1/2/3 in some order. Remind tried to qualify for GSL one time and there was a big deal about it. Creolophus coached a SC2 team. Yes, it's not objective because power ranks can never be objective.
most people rank grubby behind sky and moon. you even ranked him behind lyn yourself (who was the "better" orc for a longer period):
From 2007 onward, he was consistently one of the top players and probably better than Grubby overall except for a few short periods. He had exceptional micro and contributed the addition of spirit walkers to Orc vs Undead.
i'm nitpicking here, btw happy you went through the effort to create a power rank at all.
On June 19 2013 20:56 Dingodile wrote: what about the best yearly foreign Nightelf player HoT (except 2007 Creoplophus)?
from the OP
This power rank only includes players who dabbled in SC2 and mostly serves to give an idea of how good the top players today were in WC3. The most notable players who never tried to switch include: Fly, TH000, Ted, Lucifer, Fov, Sweet, Reign, GoStop, SoJu, Zacard, Insomnia, Deadman, and HoT.
take was actually quite decent in the german scene (but that was very early on). its so funny to see him as a kid back then :D
wcg 2008 grubby vs moon final screamcasted by khaldor and someone else who almost equals khaldor in shouting is still my favourite esports moment. it was also my very first one.
Pretty cool. Moonglade's liquipedia page (mOOnGLaDe) seems to give him a lot more credit than this write up, but as I am largely clueless about WC3 I don't know which to believe haha. Also was this whO guy any good? Thanks for the writeup!
On June 19 2013 21:39 DavoS wrote: Pretty cool. Moonglade's liquipedia page (mOOnGLaDe) seems to give him a lot more credit than this write up, but as I am largely clueless about WC3 I don't know which to believe haha. Also was this whO guy any good? Thanks for the writeup!
WhO?
yep, he was very good at the later stages of wc3. before 2008, he was very decent, but not considered one of the top orcs.
This power rank only includes players who dabbled in SC2 and mostly serves to give an idea of how good the top players today were in WC3. The most notable players who never tried to switch include: Fly, TH000, Ted, Lucifer, Fov, Sweet, Reign, GoStop, SoJu, Zacard, Insomnia, Deadman, and HoT.
Kenshin.WeRRa was really good, Insomnia was a beats also i was a fan of Showtime.WeRRa cause i think he was the first player to get lvl 50 in ladder (RoC iirc). RoC ladder was hard as hell. Fury needed a mention too i cant remember more i miss wc3
I think Madfrog is overrated. He had like a 6 month span where he was amazing, but other than that he was mediocre at best. I think quitting early helped him to save that "legendary status", I always thought he was given more credit than he deserved because of that tbh.
My favorite WC3 player was always Sk.FaTC. He didn't have the achievments of Insomnia and HeMan, but he was definitely on their level, if not better. Was known as "Mr. 2-0" for his results in WC3L. Beat FoV in ESWC 2004, and beat Freedom in some later WCG (or ESWC?), but rarely got past RO16. He was better than ToD until the end of his career, and also beat Grubby lots of times. Dominated in the weekly cups (wc3m and incup) when he participated in them.
On June 20 2013 00:20 Topin wrote: so many memories, thx! great read
Kenshin.WeRRa was really good, Insomnia was a beats also i was a fan of Showtime.WeRRa cause i think he was the first player to get lvl 50 in ladder (RoC iirc). RoC ladder was hard as hell. Fury needed a mention too i cant remember more i miss wc3
p.s. imba BM
Sweet was the first one to get to level 50 on ladder. ShowTime later had topped all 3 ladders with 3 different accounts
I think Madfrog is overrated. He had like a 6 month span where he was amazing, but other than that he was mediocre at best. I think quitting early helped him to save that "legendary status", I always thought he was given more credit than he deserved because of that tbh.
While most foreigners (Inso, Dominator, HeMan and later 4K squad) failed hardcore in Korea, MaDFroG landed a contract with the best team and performed in both teamleague/individual league. You gotta respect that. Think about Jinro man
It is funny when Soju is not even mentioned. He was there when competition 'took off', and he and Remind were unofficially crowned as best 2v2 team of all time, better than Moon+Grubby, when 'certain leagues' took place. Not to deduct from his 1v1 skill.
This power rank only includes players who dabbled in SC2 and mostly serves to give an idea of how good the top players today were in WC3. The most notable players who never tried to switch include: Fly, TH000, Ted, Lucifer, Fov, Sweet, Reign, GoStop, SoJu, Zacard, Insomnia, Deadman, and HoT.
Jesus is there a RTS game that select hasn't done well in?
On June 20 2013 01:35 monk wrote: This power rank only includes players who dabbled in SC2 and mostly serves to give an idea of how good the top players today were in WC3. The most notable players who never tried to switch include: Fly, TH000, Ted, Lucifer, Fov, Sweet, Reign, GoStop, SoJu, Zacard, Insomnia, Deadman, and HoT.
Is SoJu different from the one you were referring to? If not then he was one of the top europeans in the beta and early WoL, but lived in Korea with werra clan so we never saw much of him.
On June 20 2013 01:35 monk wrote: This power rank only includes players who dabbled in SC2 and mostly serves to give an idea of how good the top players today were in WC3. The most notable players who never tried to switch include: Fly, TH000, Ted, Lucifer, Fov, Sweet, Reign, GoStop, SoJu, Zacard, Insomnia, Deadman, and HoT.
Is SoJu different from the one you were referring to? If not then he was one of the top europeans in the beta and early WoL, but lived in Korea with werra clan so we never saw much of him.
TeD and lucifer where? Those two i consider the best undead players ever. Creo should be on Tod spot and Tod lower. Th000 was the best random player imo and is also missing in this list.
Seeing all those names, I can't help but think "what if..." While it's great we get to see legends like Grubby and Tod in the scene, it would have been nice if high apm monsters like Moon go 100% SC2.
I didn't follow WC3 a ton just because I was too young, though I watched some shoutcasting videos, I wish I could have watched it more, I heard that Grubby was just insane.
WC3 has a richer history than is represented by the WC3 players who transitioned to SC2. Still it is interesting. It looks to me that the EU SC2 scene is built quite substantially on the foundations of the EU WC3 scene, which itself was built on the BW scene (madfrog, didi8, tillerman) most of the early WC3 RoC top players were most likely Blizzard veterans from BW and WC2. Basically this is Blizzard's "Goodwill" era, which they have been squandering ever since.
What I think is more interesting is; where is the new blood in the foreign scene?
Anyways I thought I'd just mention that I think Kas was an fast improving player/close to becoming a top player near the end of wc3 before sc2 came out, or at least becoming one of euro's top players.
The good days. Warcraft III to me was what Brood War was to most people here. That was the game I played all through high school and the first few years after graduation until WoL beta, with a few breaks for WoW here and there.
I hope and hope and hope that some day Warcraft IV will happen, and that it will come out before I turn 30.
Pretty certain Thorzain invented the tower Mk Gryphons strategy vs Orc, the first time we saw it was in WC3L where he defeated Who, Lyn, and Focus with it.
Also remind won a total of 4 battle.net ladder seasons, and had more zotac cup victories by a mile then any other player in wc3 history, his accomplishment list should be much longer, and almost anyone involved in Warcraft 3 would place him around 5th.
On June 20 2013 05:47 ATiBright wrote: Pretty certain Thorzain invented the tower Mk Gryphons strategy vs Orc, the first time we saw it was in WC3L where he defeated Who, Lyn, and Focus with it.
Also remind won a total of 4 battle.net ladder seasons, and had more zotac cup victories by a mile then any other player in wc3 history, his accomplishment list should be much longer, and almost anyone involved in Warcraft 3 would place him around 5th.
None of the statements in your post are true. The accomplishments only include world championships and not minor $100 Zotac cups, other minor tournaments, or team leagues. Otherwise, every player's accomplishments would be a mile long.
On June 20 2013 03:50 teapot wrote: WC3 has a richer history than is represented by the WC3 players who transitioned to SC2. Still it is interesting. It looks to me that the EU SC2 scene is built quite substantially on the foundations of the EU WC3 scene, which itself was built on the BW scene (madfrog, didi8, tillerman) most of the early WC3 RoC top players were most likely Blizzard veterans from BW and WC2. Basically this is Blizzard's "Goodwill" era, which they have been squandering ever since.
What I think is more interesting is; where is the new blood in the foreign scene?
Pretty funny how there always is a way to bash blizzard, even in a blog like this one. If bashing blizzard was a city, it'd be in Italy.
On June 20 2013 06:22 ShivaN wrote: So many big UD names missing on this list! TeD, FoV, Sweet, Space?? Well... UD did always get the shaft in that game..
oh god, i love how 50% of the ppl commenting on rankings NEVER read anything the OP wrote besides the number and the name.
On June 20 2013 06:22 ShivaN wrote: So many big UD names missing on this list! TeD, FoV, Sweet, Space?? Well... UD did always get the shaft in that game..
On June 20 2013 06:22 ShivaN wrote: So many big UD names missing on this list! TeD, FoV, Sweet, Space?? Well... UD did always get the shaft in that game..
oh god, i love how 50% of the ppl commenting on rankings NEVER read anything the OP wrote besides the number and the name.
On June 20 2013 05:23 Draconicfire wrote: Hm, this list reminds me, what happened to Moon? Does he still play SC2?
wife, children. he never played sc2 as fulltime as wc3. he tried for a brief period of time, but not becoming one of the best rapidly probably made him stop. still a dreamhack champion in my heart (sry HuK, that thaldarim wasnt the thaldarim you 2 were supposed to play - dat 3 building wall made you win dreamhack :O)
Susiria is another name that comes to mind. Also aether - x, survivor, didi8, crazyassassin, apex-x, elakeduck, intox, bjarke, kain-the-feared.. just to name a few oldschoolers.
He was pretty good in wc3, should be the best rated US player here at least.
Well LongWalk is the best US player ever, he consistently did better then any other US player, sadly he grew out of video games. He post on WCReplays from time to time still.
On June 19 2013 18:36 Arceus wrote: Ima back your nostalgic blog with some judgement and trivia (not bashing by any mean )
- Moon: 3-0 rigged orc, dominate with broken hand, perfect the gayest strat, 10-0 FoCuS race-switch, had all the best ID & nickname etc etc - Grubby: basetrade, basetrade & basetrade, write emo linkin park blog for excuse & tons of lame shit I cant recall - Sky: got raped in WEGs, won WCG the same year, won another WCG by watching GoStop's replay - Lyn: win 200000 InCups before raising to prominence with WE - Infi: shameless tower masser - MaD]Q[FroG: signed with Sonokong FrienZ, won some teamleague, voted mvp on MBC - LucifroN: strictly race abuser and nothing else - SocceR: actually oldschool (Rhapsody[Pooh] on Kalimdor), played great every once in a while and won nothing - Check: dubbed the "Fever Blood", the most fearsome Korean in RoC & early TFT, won back-2-back OGN leagues, still top20 for the remaining of TFT career - Violet: from WeRRa, decent BattleNet orc who went on to be a race abuser - XlorD: known as sexLord when hes good & Shitlord when hes not. kicked out from SK/SK.de for some incident I cant recall - miou: the inferior German human counterpart of Spell (who was the best german player ever) - Ciara: decent WC3L player for his time at mYm.dk and MYM, more known for his relationship with JacziE the famous caster - Polt (HU): went to the 2nd round of MWL (a rebirth-MBC PL), played some WC3L as well and then disappeared - SeleCT: YECA-->SK.kr-->Warhammer-->TmG-->Warhammer again
Some others: - Myth: he tried out some Open Seasons under Prime. The dude mastered the second gayest strat ever invented aka human massing expos with towers and killing with tanks (Moon was the very first victim) - Rainbow: tried out Open Seasons under LiberoPrime. Fastest wc3 ever with 400-500apm in 50 mins games. Dubbed the bandit-human for wearing a bandit-like headband. - GoStop: Moon's sweet sweet next-door best friend. Dubbed the Nerubian King for being the first effective fiend user with style (screw PhilBot). Tried out Open Season but failed - DayFly: play a lot during beta & early WoL. The most legendary Korean imo. He didnt only dominate RoC, early TFT but also unveiled the map scandal and brought Warcraft to China. Oh and he dated Cassandra before Grubby xD
did I miss anyone :p
FreeDom.WeRRa : Extremely hyped NE with very strong mirror matchup and weak NE vs UD, who kept eliminating Moon during his prime from WCG/ESWC korea qualifiers. He played in the GSL open season 2 I think. He was the most hyped during 2005-2006 season in wc3 (IIRC)
MakaPrime : Amateur wc3 player. Played as A.One)Townhall, and even participated in WC3L for one season I think. Best achievement was Code S RO8.
He was pretty good in wc3, should be the best rated US player here at least.
Well LongWalk is the best US player ever, he consistently did better then any other US player, sadly he grew out of video games. He post on WCReplays from time to time still.
In terms of pure achievements, you have to put ShortRound above LongWalk Even Wizard was a better player IMO. Of course its hard to compare since they played in different time periods, but I would rate a 2nd place and 4th place in WCG grand finals over most other achievements.
On June 20 2013 06:22 ShivaN wrote: So many big UD names missing on this list! TeD, FoV, Sweet, Space?? Well... UD did always get the shaft in that game..
ONLY PLAYERS WHO PLAY/PLAYED SC2
Jesus people, reading is a useful skill toi have.
I don't understand why monk would arbitrarily pick out only the players that dabbled in SC2 for a WC3 power rank, given that half of them have already retired from SC2 or play in total obscurity. By that logic one could also add TeD and FoV for most likely having played some SC2 ladder games at some point in their life.
I think monk was just anxious to write more power ranks, it must be addictive.
Anyone else disappointed when they see a player was into WC3 instead of BW? I feel like that game took so much less skill that I respect the players less when I find out that's where they came from, naniwa and lucifron included.
Sort of like if you find out your favourite cs:go player started in CS:S instead of CS1.6
I never followed WC3 but I did follow BW, maybe its just me.
On June 20 2013 05:47 ATiBright wrote: Pretty certain Thorzain invented the tower Mk Gryphons strategy vs Orc, the first time we saw it was in WC3L where he defeated Who, Lyn, and Focus with it.
Also remind won a total of 4 battle.net ladder seasons, and had more zotac cup victories by a mile then any other player in wc3 history, his accomplishment list should be much longer, and almost anyone involved in Warcraft 3 would place him around 5th.
None of the statements in your post are true. The accomplishments only include world championships and not minor $100 Zotac cups, other minor tournaments, or team leagues. Otherwise, every player's accomplishments would be a mile long.
He won 1, 2, 4, and 8 Sorry but your wrong, at least when it comes to remind and me mentioning his 4 ladder season victories, which were very very big tournaments.
He defeated 4k.Fury in season 2, and Season 1 he defeated Sweet in the Asia finals, can't remember who he beat in the grand final, but I know he won it.
Don't use wikipedia to try and prove someone wrong who worked with Remind on a daily basis for almost 2 years. That page is missing several notable tournaments.
On June 20 2013 10:58 Littlesheep wrote: Anyone else disappointed when they see a player was into WC3 instead of BW? I feel like that game took so much less skill that I respect the players less when I find out that's where they came from, naniwa and lucifron included.
Sort of like if you find out your favourite cs:go player started in CS:S instead of CS1.6
I never followed WC3 but I did follow BW, maybe its just me.
Most of those guys were really young when they started playing, and thus chose the game that was more popular and had a better scene. Plus why would they waste their time playing a game that had almost no foreign scene and very little prize money?
Also by your logic, you should be really disappointed by Flash/Jaedong playing SC2 and they should have continued playing BW since it was much harder, amirite?
Aside from the concept of building an army, SC2 and WC3 had very few (if any) similarities in the way they were played, so its like comparing apples and oranges in terms of the skills required.
WC3 will always be my one true love. Played the shit out of that single player when I was a kid and coninue to love the game still. It's sad that the pro scene didn't have the longevity of Brood War.
I still love watching WC3 vods from time to time. (and there are a few YouTubers out there, like Crota, that pump them out constantly) because I love the artstyle and I love the game!
Fuck! <3 WC3 forever. Always waiting for a WC4.
Thanks again for this writeup, monk. Very nice, very interesting.
He was pretty good in wc3, should be the best rated US player here at least.
Well LongWalk is the best US player ever, he consistently did better then any other US player, sadly he grew out of video games. He post on WCReplays from time to time still.
In terms of pure achievements, you have to put ShortRound above LongWalk Even Wizard was a better player IMO. Of course its hard to compare since they played in different time periods, but I would rate a 2nd place and 4th place in WCG grand finals over most other achievements.
On June 20 2013 10:58 Littlesheep wrote: Anyone else disappointed when they see a player was into WC3 instead of BW? I feel like that game took so much less skill that I respect the players less when I find out that's where they came from, naniwa and lucifron included.
Sort of like if you find out your favourite cs:go player started in CS:S instead of CS1.6
I never followed WC3 but I did follow BW, maybe its just me.
it makes me angry just reading that post. the games are completely different, and so are the skillsets. sure, you don't have to spend 100 apm macroing in war3, but the micro is much harder and decision making is completely different (and there are much more options than in sc2 imo).
and by your own logic, shouldn't you respect someone *more* when they came from an "easier" game and manage to do really well in the "harder" one?
either way, the main point is gonna be that when there's a lot of competition, striving in it is going to be hard regardless of the actual game.
He was pretty good in wc3, should be the best rated US player here at least.
Well LongWalk is the best US player ever, he consistently did better then any other US player, sadly he grew out of video games. He post on WCReplays from time to time still.
In terms of pure achievements, you have to put ShortRound above LongWalk Even Wizard was a better player IMO. Of course its hard to compare since they played in different time periods, but I would rate a 2nd place and 4th place in WCG grand finals over most other achievements.
On June 20 2013 06:22 ShivaN wrote: So many big UD names missing on this list! TeD, FoV, Sweet, Space?? Well... UD did always get the shaft in that game..
ONLY PLAYERS WHO PLAY/PLAYED SC2
Jesus people, reading is a useful skill toi have.
I don't understand why monk would arbitrarily pick out only the players that dabbled in SC2 for a WC3 power rank, given that half of them have already retired from SC2 or play in total obscurity. By that logic one could also add TeD and FoV for most likely having played some SC2 ladder games at some point in their life.
I think monk was just anxious to write more power ranks, it must be addictive.
On June 20 2013 10:58 Littlesheep wrote: Anyone else disappointed when they see a player was into WC3 instead of BW? I feel like that game took so much less skill that I respect the players less when I find out that's where they came from, naniwa and lucifron included.
Sort of like if you find out your favourite cs:go player started in CS:S instead of CS1.6
I never followed WC3 but I did follow BW, maybe its just me.
Not really, actually one would say it is a bigger acomplishment since you then face a steeper ladder to climb because your skill was lower. Not saying BW>War3 in terms of difficulty, I don't want to open that discussion.
3rd ASUS European Nations War 2006 3rd ASUS European Nations War 2007 1st ASUS European Nations War 2008 1st ESL Pro Series Season 12 (2008) 1st ESL Pro Series Season 13 (2008) 1st ESL Pro Series Season 14 (2008) 2nd ESL Pro Series Season 16 (2009)
He was pretty good in wc3, should be the best rated US player here at least.
Well LongWalk is the best US player ever, he consistently did better then any other US player, sadly he grew out of video games. He post on WCReplays from time to time still.
In terms of pure achievements, you have to put ShortRound above LongWalk Even Wizard was a better player IMO. Of course its hard to compare since they played in different time periods, but I would rate a 2nd place and 4th place in WCG grand finals over most other achievements.
On June 20 2013 10:58 Littlesheep wrote: Anyone else disappointed when they see a player was into WC3 instead of BW? I feel like that game took so much less skill that I respect the players less when I find out that's where they came from, naniwa and lucifron included.
Sort of like if you find out your favourite cs:go player started in CS:S instead of CS1.6
I never followed WC3 but I did follow BW, maybe its just me.
this is one of the dumbest things I have ever read on this website.
On June 20 2013 10:58 Littlesheep wrote: Anyone else disappointed when they see a player was into WC3 instead of BW? I feel like that game took so much less skill that I respect the players less when I find out that's where they came from, naniwa and lucifron included.
Sort of like if you find out your favourite cs:go player started in CS:S instead of CS1.6
I never followed WC3 but I did follow BW, maybe its just me.
still in Wc3 there were very few upsets, the better player won much more often then in Sc2 (i dont know much about BW). i dont understand why so many Sc2ers feel so elite cause the game needs 150 apm for building depots,mules,units, structures alone
I'd put rotterdam a bit higher on that list. For a while he was hyped as being the next grubby. Never reached that obviously, but did have more achievements than most of the other honourable mentions and some of the low end.
Also Axslav was probably the best NA player as well as his 2v2 fame. Though that counts about as much as it does in SC2. Known for using bizarre strategies like mass hyppo riders.
On June 20 2013 10:58 Littlesheep wrote: Anyone else disappointed when they see a player was into WC3 instead of BW? I feel like that game took so much less skill that I respect the players less when I find out that's where they came from, naniwa and lucifron included.
Sort of like if you find out your favourite cs:go player started in CS:S instead of CS1.6
I never followed WC3 but I did follow BW, maybe its just me.
still in Wc3 there were very few upsets, the better player won much more often then in Sc2 (i dont know much about BW). i dont understand why so many Sc2ers feel so elite cause the game needs 150 apm for building depots,mules,units, structures alone
Nah, going f4 click m click m click m click m click m click m click m click m 1a2a3a4a is obviously much harder than 6ddc then a few move commands for that huntress block to let a dh snipe a unit, because more actions!
In this tournament LucifroN manage to beat the best European players, including Grubby in both the winner bracket final (2-0) and the overall final (1-2, 2-1).
- 3rd European Blizzard Regional finals 2008 (Madrid, Spain)
- 5/8th WCG 2008 (Cologne, Germany)
I think that 9th place for him is totally undeserved, he was a top tier WC3 player in the last years and he could beat (and he did, in fact) every player in the world.
He was pretty good in wc3, should be the best rated US player here at least.
Well LongWalk is the best US player ever, he consistently did better then any other US player, sadly he grew out of video games. He post on WCReplays from time to time still.
In terms of pure achievements, you have to put ShortRound above LongWalk Even Wizard was a better player IMO. Of course its hard to compare since they played in different time periods, but I would rate a 2nd place and 4th place in WCG grand finals over most other achievements.
On June 20 2013 19:15 Musicus wrote: XlorD Achievements:
3rd ASUS European Nations War 2006 3rd ASUS European Nations War 2007 1st ASUS European Nations War 2008 1st ESL Pro Series Season 12 (2008) 1st ESL Pro Series Season 13 (2008) 1st ESL Pro Series Season 14 (2008) 2nd ESL Pro Series Season 16 (2009)
In 2008 XlorD was one of the strongest europeans.
He was talented, but those achievments aren't really that impressive. Just a teamleague and a german-only league? Another talented german undead was Protois, I remember him being very hyped up, but never really achieving anything sadly.
On June 20 2013 10:58 Littlesheep wrote: Anyone else disappointed when they see a player was into WC3 instead of BW? I feel like that game took so much less skill that I respect the players less when I find out that's where they came from, naniwa and lucifron included.
Sort of like if you find out your favourite cs:go player started in CS:S instead of CS1.6
I never followed WC3 but I did follow BW, maybe its just me.
I have a lot more respect to the wc3 guys then scbw. To your first question: I am very happy that I dont have seen IdrA or Ret in wc3. The only one is White-ra. I really like IdrA and Ret in sc2.
In this tournament LucifroN manage to beat the best European players, including Grubby in both the winner bracket final (2-0) and the overall final (1-2, 2-1).
- 3rd European Blizzard Regional finals 2008 (Madrid, Spain)
- 5/8th WCG 2008 (Cologne, Germany)
I think that 9th place for him is totally undeserved, he was a top tier WC3 player in the last years and he could beat (and he did, in fact) every player in the world.
Anyone who ever watched Orc mirrors or played them knows that match up is a literal roll of RNG most of the time. Oh your BM crit, but mine didn't? Guess you're winning the early encounters.
On June 21 2013 00:44 Paragleiber wrote: "Kiwikaki(O):: Probably the second best player from North America near the end of WC3, overshadowed only by Nilknarf."
Hm... never heard of Nilknarf before. I thought near the end it was LongWalk who always won the US qualifiers and before that it was Sonkie.
actually the only americans to really compete were shortround placing 3rd and 4th at WCG if i recall correctly, and wizard winning a car at ACON4 or something like that
nilknarf was by far the best before wc3 went downhill pretty fast longwalk and sonkie were okayish and only qualified if none better showed up
in the history of american wc3 players like aether, shock and ghostrider in their mTw time were also pretty good
In this tournament LucifroN manage to beat the best European players, including Grubby in both the winner bracket final (2-0) and the overall final (1-2, 2-1).
- 3rd European Blizzard Regional finals 2008 (Madrid, Spain)
- 5/8th WCG 2008 (Cologne, Germany)
I think that 9th place for him is totally undeserved, he was a top tier WC3 player in the last years and he could beat (and he did, in fact) every player in the world.
Anyone who ever watched Orc mirrors or played them knows that match up is a literal roll of RNG most of the time. Oh your BM crit, but mine didn't? Guess you're winning the early encounters.
That isn't true in the slightest. You could make an argument about getting extreme bad luck with item drops (you get several rings while your opponent gets claws/gloves), but BM crits are the least of your worries. Bad drop luck isn't unique to any specific matchup though. Orc mirror was always how we would 1v1 because the matchup revolves around micro, positioning, and decision making. If you play a series the better player will win.
Longwalk, Sonkie, nilknarf were good, but no other american was as fun to watch as axslav. I was a random player myself and looooved to watch his replays. If I remember correctly he managed to ladder up an account where he played no heroes :D #starcraftstyle
On June 21 2013 02:03 tree.hugger wrote: Bit off topic, but whatever happened to LongWalk? Wasn't he one of the best American players?
Pretty sure he's a decent poker player now. Could be confusing him with someone else though.
Off my memory: The best american WC3ers in terms of achievments were first and foremost Wizard and Shortround. Those are the only ones with notable international achievments in 1v1 tournaments. Wizard winning ACON4, and Shortround with good placements in various WCG/ESWC's. Notable about both though is that they both kinda sucked online. That wasn't the case with the later generations of players, with guys like Nilknarf and Sonkie. They did consistently alright, but never managed to get any particular notable result in an important 1v1 tournament. That goes for a LOT of WC3ers though, there weren't really that many 1v1 tournaments.
Fascinating reading. Overall stats from several years of WC3L. Grubby so fucking dominant. 119 BO3s won, 25 lost. Funny to see even Darkforce with a couple of games played there, can't say I remember that.
Edit: haha, Take at the very bottom of the list consisting of 513 players.
What happened to mouz.Spell? He was always pretty good, but kinda overlooked. Possibly the best german wc3er at certain times.
Worth noting is that a lot of the results were a result of which starting map the coach/captain decided to put the players on.
Lots of the fun with wc3l was the speculation before the matches as to who were to be chosen to play on which of the four startingmaps. Certain races were good at certain maps, however certain players were good vs certain races, so it was always a dilemma for the coaches/captains regarding which maps to give to which players.
You shouldn't forget to mention that Axslav was _extremely_ bad mannered and childish during a period of his Warcraft 3 days. Well, that's my experience when I used to meet him and Strifeco on ladder. BM from the start of each game, just uselessly flaming away.
Should mention Lucifer(UD). He liked to do unorthodox strategies like Lich tower rush or his trademark tier 2 push, I've seen him use panda first as well.
Great list, and pretty accurate assessment of every player. The top 3 without a doubt were Grubby Moon and Sky in terms of best known and legacy. The were the kings of their respective races. Surprised not to see TED, he was one of the strongest UD's near the end. And where's the famous Showtime? Freedom? Dayfly? These were huge names before they left the scene. Would also like to mention my personal favorite UD player of all time, Sweet[SAINT], and the Big UD 5 (not sure if 4 or 5). These were similar to the brood war protoss dragons. They were: Sweet[SAINT],Lof.FoV, Cherry.ReiGn, Susiria.Werra and Cherry.Lucifer.
Edit: Okay, completely missed the bolded segment in OP. My apologies. But so happy you included sweet fov and reign. They were the champions of all UD before Orcs took over and drove them to near extinction .
On June 21 2013 00:46 Dingodile wrote: mirror is always the most random matchup. It doesn't matter whether wc3, sc1, sc2 or cnc or whatever.
Orc mirror on TFT was excessively volatile, all depending on what items the creeps drop and on how many crits your BM lands. Other mirrors (except for SC2 PvP) aren't that random tbh.
On June 21 2013 00:46 Dingodile wrote: mirror is always the most random matchup. It doesn't matter whether wc3, sc1, sc2 or cnc or whatever.
Orc mirror on TFT was excessively volatile, all depending on what items the creeps drop and on how many crits your BM lands.
The crits are not that important, considering the high HP units in WC3 in general and especially for orc, it is more like an overall dps increase. The Blademaders's strength is more about the items you have. But "luck" comes with effort (a good planned out creep route.)
A decent list, but there is one thing that really bothers me. Tod was really insanely good, but I don't think he should be ranked above any of the Asian players in the list.
Two things I feel like you need to add: Grubby's famous quote: "I have to be honest: playing NE vs Orcs is like shooting handicapped ducks in a barrel. NE's cyclone is too strong and faerie fire lasts too long. Finally, dryads don't give enough experience."
Also, the fact that Creolophus made Blizz change the map Terenas Stand after he came up with the completely unbeatable NE vs Orc fast merc strategy.
On June 21 2013 00:46 Dingodile wrote: mirror is always the most random matchup. It doesn't matter whether wc3, sc1, sc2 or cnc or whatever.
Orc mirror on TFT was excessively volatile, all depending on what items the creeps drop and on how many crits your BM lands. Other mirrors (except for SC2 PvP) aren't that random tbh.
Tome of GG influenced every matchup though. You're still right that Orc (with blademaster) could benefit much more from some other items and thus made Orc mirror pretty random. However, on maps without "tome of gg" all other mirrors were barely influenced by luck. Actually, I feel like then the better player (almost) always won.
On June 21 2013 00:46 Dingodile wrote: mirror is always the most random matchup. It doesn't matter whether wc3, sc1, sc2 or cnc or whatever.
Orc mirror on TFT was excessively volatile, all depending on what items the creeps drop and on how many crits your BM lands.
The crits are not that important, considering the high HP units in WC3 in general and especially for orc, it is more like an overall dps increase. The Blademaders's strength is more about the items you have. But "luck" comes with effort (a good planned out creep route.)
still... orc mirror was like the worst matchup. even with a good creep route you were at a BIG disadvantage if you got 2 ring of protection while the other BM has circlet or claws. also there were maps with only one shop (echo isles...) and the fight for the 1 pair of boots decided who could harass easily.
On June 21 2013 00:46 Dingodile wrote: mirror is always the most random matchup. It doesn't matter whether wc3, sc1, sc2 or cnc or whatever.
Orc mirror on TFT was excessively volatile, all depending on what items the creeps drop and on how many crits your BM lands.
The crits are not that important, considering the high HP units in WC3 in general and especially for orc, it is more like an overall dps increase. The Blademaders's strength is more about the items you have. But "luck" comes with effort (a good planned out creep route.)
still... orc mirror was like the worst matchup. even with a good creep route you were at a BIG disadvantage if you got 2 ring of protection while the other BM has circlet or claws. also there were maps with only one shop (echo isles...) and the fight for the 1 pair of boots decided who could harass easily.
Wasn't Orc mirror that bad for some players that they would learn NE and off-race just to avoid the coin flip?
On June 21 2013 00:46 Dingodile wrote: mirror is always the most random matchup. It doesn't matter whether wc3, sc1, sc2 or cnc or whatever.
Orc mirror on TFT was excessively volatile, all depending on what items the creeps drop and on how many crits your BM lands.
The crits are not that important, considering the high HP units in WC3 in general and especially for orc, it is more like an overall dps increase. The Blademaders's strength is more about the items you have. But "luck" comes with effort (a good planned out creep route.)
still... orc mirror was like the worst matchup. even with a good creep route you were at a BIG disadvantage if you got 2 ring of protection while the other BM has circlet or claws. also there were maps with only one shop (echo isles...) and the fight for the 1 pair of boots decided who could harass easily.
Wasn't Orc mirror that bad for some players that they would learn NE and off-race just to avoid the coin flip?
Only xiaoT tried to do that, extremely unsuccessfully I might add.
On June 21 2013 00:46 Dingodile wrote: mirror is always the most random matchup. It doesn't matter whether wc3, sc1, sc2 or cnc or whatever.
Orc mirror on TFT was excessively volatile, all depending on what items the creeps drop and on how many crits your BM lands.
The crits are not that important, considering the high HP units in WC3 in general and especially for orc, it is more like an overall dps increase. The Blademaders's strength is more about the items you have. But "luck" comes with effort (a good planned out creep route.)
still... orc mirror was like the worst matchup. even with a good creep route you were at a BIG disadvantage if you got 2 ring of protection while the other BM has circlet or claws. also there were maps with only one shop (echo isles...) and the fight for the 1 pair of boots decided who could harass easily.
Wasn't Orc mirror that bad for some players that they would learn NE and off-race just to avoid the coin flip?
Offracing as elf was common for human mirror I believe.
On June 21 2013 00:46 Dingodile wrote: mirror is always the most random matchup. It doesn't matter whether wc3, sc1, sc2 or cnc or whatever.
Orc mirror on TFT was excessively volatile, all depending on what items the creeps drop and on how many crits your BM lands.
The crits are not that important, considering the high HP units in WC3 in general and especially for orc, it is more like an overall dps increase. The Blademaders's strength is more about the items you have. But "luck" comes with effort (a good planned out creep route.)
still... orc mirror was like the worst matchup. even with a good creep route you were at a BIG disadvantage if you got 2 ring of protection while the other BM has circlet or claws. also there were maps with only one shop (echo isles...) and the fight for the 1 pair of boots decided who could harass easily.
Wasn't Orc mirror that bad for some players that they would learn NE and off-race just to avoid the coin flip?
Offracing as elf was common for human mirror I believe.
Yea, with the way Sky developed the HvH metagame, HvH became a lot more coin-flippy. Basically it went from tier 2 and 3 fights into mass tier 1 footmen with mercenaries and often base trades.
On June 22 2013 04:19 amazingxkcd wrote: could we have a power rank for any current pros that still play? I'm just curious to know who still plays WC3 these days
Lyn #1 TH000/TeD/Moon #2-4
In sc2 only MC and Violet have nice english. In wc3 Susiria, Remind, Lucifer, Lyn. FoV with english and chinese
Why do you include Grubby in the "top"? Really, I do not understand it. Are you baiting anyone who isn't a raving fanboy of him? Grubby was definitively below Sky and Moon. He contributed fuck all to Orc strats compared to what they did and is shot up to the skies since he was a foreigner. I feel same with ToD. Infi and Remind were definitively stronger than him.
On that topic I also find it amusing how you make Sky seem like a strategical genius. Sky was a mechanical player, similar to Happy but not as disgustingly predictable. Moon made strategies beyond your imagination. His strategies were so bullshit that people couldn't copy half of them. And no mention of Moon's utter dominance of the NE vs UD MU? It makes JvZ or Savior vs T and similar look like nothing.
I also do not see why you rate RotterdaM so lowly. He honestly had godtier Orc vs Orc, far better than any foreigner. He would often choke vs Grubby though, so the part where he isn't listed very high is understandable. You do not give him the credit he deserves though.
On positive notes, very glad you give Creo the credit he very much deserves. Guy was really fun to play with and to talk to. He made WCG 2007 so fucking awesome, him beating Sky in the finals was one of the best moments in WC3 imo.
I am very butthurt about the first point though and I demand a thorough explanation for it. I find it very disgusting that you'd actually pull that one. I may be mildly biased as I am a real fanatic when it comes to anything that has to do with Moon but really, Grubby was below him and Sky for sure.
On June 22 2013 05:46 Elem wrote: Why do you include Grubby in the "top"? Really, I do not understand it. Are you baiting anyone who isn't a raving fanboy of him? Grubby was definitively below Sky and Moon. He contributed fuck all to Orc strats compared to what they did and is shot up to the skies since he was a foreigner. I feel same with ToD. Infi and Remind were definitively stronger than him.
On that topic I also find it amusing how you make Sky seem like a strategical genius. Sky was a mechanical player, similar to Happy but not as disgustingly predictable. Moon made strategies beyond your imagination. His strategies were so bullshit that people couldn't copy half of them. And no mention of Moon's utter dominance of the NE vs UD MU? It makes JvZ or Savior vs T and similar look like nothing.
I also do not see why you rate RotterdaM so lowly. He honestly had godtier Orc vs Orc, far better than any foreigner. He would often choke vs Grubby though, so the part where he isn't listed very high is understandable. You do not give him the credit he deserves though.
On positive notes, very glad you give Creo the credit he very much deserves. Guy was really fun to play with and to talk to. He made WCG 2007 so fucking awesome, him beating Sky in the finals was one of the best moments in WC3 imo.
I am very butthurt about the first point though and I demand a thorough explanation for it. I find it very disgusting that you'd actually pull that one. I may be mildly biased as I am a real fanatic when it comes to anything that has to do with Moon but really, Grubby was below him and Sky for sure.
what the hell? in what period did you follow war3? Grubby, Moon and Sky in some order are basically agreed upon by the whole community to be the top 3 players to ever touch the game. check out Grubby's achievements:
1st Place – Cyber X Games, 2003 (Las Vegas – USA) 1st Place – CPL Turkey, 2004 (Istanbul – Turkey) 1st Place – World Cyber Games '04, 2004 (San Francisco – USA) 1st Place – Samsung Euro Championship '05, 2005 (Hannover – Germany) 1st Place – Revelcell Masters, 2005 (Berlin – Germany) 1st Place – Electronic Sports World Cup '05, 2005 (Paris – France) 1st Place – Digital Life Gaming Tournament, 2005 (New York – USA) 1st Place – BlizzCon '05, 2005 (Los Angeles – USA) 3rd Place – World Cyber Games '05, 2005 (Singapore – Singapore) 2nd Place – Blizzard Worldwide Invitational '06, 2006 (Seoul – South Korea) 1st Place – Samsung European Championship '06, 2006 (Hannover – Germany) 2nd Place – World e-Sports Games Masters '06, 2006 (Hangzhou – China) 1st Place – V-Sports All-Stars, 2006 (New York – USA) 1st Place – World E-Sports Festival, 2006 (Qingdao – China) 2nd Place – ClanBase EuroCup 12, 2006 (Copenhagen – Denmark) 1st Place – WSVG Qualifier, October 2006, (London – UK) 1st Place – WSVG Grand Finals, December 2006, (New York – USA) 3rd Place – KODE5 2006, September 2006, (Beijing – China) 1st Place – Warcraft World War, October 2006, (Seoul – South Korea) 2nd Place – SuperFight II, November 2006, (Seoul – South Korea) 3rd Place – Battlenet Season 4, January 2007, (Cologne -Germany) 1st Place – Warcraft World War, February 2007, (Seoul – South Korea) 3rd Place – European Cyber Games, March 2007, (Hannover – Germany) 4th Place – World Series of Video Games, May 2007, (Wuhan – China) 3rd Place – Blizzard Worldwide Invitational, May 2007, (Los Angeles – USA) 1st Place – ESWC Dutch Qualifiers, 20 May 2007, (Enschede – Netherlands) 3rd Place – Battlenet Season 5 Europe Finals, 22–23 June 2007, (Hamburg – Germany) 3rd Place – ESWC Global Finals, 5–8 July, (Paris- France) 2nd Place – Stars War IV, 12–15 July, (Shanghai – China) 5th Place – PGL Season 2, 17–26 July 2007, (Beijing – China) 3rd Place – W3 Summer Grand Prix, 28–29 July 2007, (Seoul – South Korea) 3rd Place – Blizzcon 2007, 3–5 August 2007, (Orange County – California – USA) 3rd Place – eStars 2007, 11–12 August 2007 (Shared 3rd/4th), (Seoul – South Korea) 1st Place – WCG Dutch Finals, 30 August 2007, (Rotterdam – Netherlands) 1st Place – Clanbase EuroCup 2007, 8–9 September 2007, (Enschede – Netherlands) 1st Place – KODE5 Dutch Qualifiers, 27–28 October 2007, (Enschede – Netherlands) 1st Place – DreamHack Winter, November 2007, (Jönköping – Sweden) 2nd Place – Extreme Masters Season II, March 2008, (Hannover – Germany) 1st Place – ESWC Netherlands Qualifier 2008, 7 June 2008, (Enschede – Netherlands) 3rd Place – Blizzard Worldwide Invitational 2008, 28–29 June 2008, (Paris – France) 1st Place – WCG Netherlands Qualifier 2008, 12 July 2008, (Rotterdam – Netherlands) 1st Place – eStars Seoul, 24–27 July 2008, (Seoul – South Korea) 1st Place – EPS Benelux, 6 September 2008, (Utrecht – Netherlands) 1st Place – WCG Dutch Finals, 27 September 2008, (Amsterdam – Netherlands) 3rd Place – World e-Sports Masters 2008, 24–2 Oct–Nov 2008, (Hangzhou – China) 1st Place – World Cyber Games 2008, 5–9 November 2008, (Cologne – Germany) 1st Place – Extreme Masters III – Korea, 13–20 November 2008, (Seoul – South Korea) 2nd Place – Extreme Masters III – China, January 2009, (Chengdu – China) 2nd Place – Blizzard Battle.net Season 7 – Europe Regionals, June 2009 (Cologne – Germany) 1st Place – e-Stars 2009 – King of the Game, July 2009 (Seoul – South Korea) 2nd Place – BlizzCon 2009, August 2009 (Orange County – California – USA) 1st Place – World e-Sports Masters 2009, December 2009 (Hangzhou – China) 1st Place – Blizzard Season 8 European Regionals (Cologne – Germany) 2nd Place – e-Stars 2010 – King of the Game (Seoul – South Korea) 2nd Place – WCG 2010, October 2010 (LA – USA)
he may not have innovated much, but he executed Orc play at the highest level and was around the top of the scene for longer than any other Orc player in the world.
On June 22 2013 05:46 Elem wrote: Why do you include Grubby in the "top"? Really, I do not understand it. Are you baiting anyone who isn't a raving fanboy of him? Grubby was definitively below Sky and Moon. He contributed fuck all to Orc strats compared to what they did and is shot up to the skies since he was a foreigner. I feel same with ToD. Infi and Remind were definitively stronger than him.
On that topic I also find it amusing how you make Sky seem like a strategical genius. Sky was a mechanical player, similar to Happy but not as disgustingly predictable. Moon made strategies beyond your imagination. His strategies were so bullshit that people couldn't copy half of them. And no mention of Moon's utter dominance of the NE vs UD MU? It makes JvZ or Savior vs T and similar look like nothing.
I also do not see why you rate RotterdaM so lowly. He honestly had godtier Orc vs Orc, far better than any foreigner. He would often choke vs Grubby though, so the part where he isn't listed very high is understandable. You do not give him the credit he deserves though.
On positive notes, very glad you give Creo the credit he very much deserves. Guy was really fun to play with and to talk to. He made WCG 2007 so fucking awesome, him beating Sky in the finals was one of the best moments in WC3 imo.
I am very butthurt about the first point though and I demand a thorough explanation for it. I find it very disgusting that you'd actually pull that one. I may be mildly biased as I am a real fanatic when it comes to anything that has to do with Moon but really, Grubby was below him and Sky for sure.
what the hell? in what period did you follow war3? Grubby, Moon and Sky in some order are basically agreed upon by the whole community to be the top 3 players to ever touch the game. check out Grubby's achievements:
1st Place – Cyber X Games, 2003 (Las Vegas – USA) 1st Place – CPL Turkey, 2004 (Istanbul – Turkey) 1st Place – World Cyber Games '04, 2004 (San Francisco – USA) 1st Place – Samsung Euro Championship '05, 2005 (Hannover – Germany) 1st Place – Revelcell Masters, 2005 (Berlin – Germany) 1st Place – Electronic Sports World Cup '05, 2005 (Paris – France) 1st Place – Digital Life Gaming Tournament, 2005 (New York – USA) 1st Place – BlizzCon '05, 2005 (Los Angeles – USA) 3rd Place – World Cyber Games '05, 2005 (Singapore – Singapore) 2nd Place – Blizzard Worldwide Invitational '06, 2006 (Seoul – South Korea) 1st Place – Samsung European Championship '06, 2006 (Hannover – Germany) 2nd Place – World e-Sports Games Masters '06, 2006 (Hangzhou – China) 1st Place – V-Sports All-Stars, 2006 (New York – USA) 1st Place – World E-Sports Festival, 2006 (Qingdao – China) 2nd Place – ClanBase EuroCup 12, 2006 (Copenhagen – Denmark) 1st Place – WSVG Qualifier, October 2006, (London – UK) 1st Place – WSVG Grand Finals, December 2006, (New York – USA) 3rd Place – KODE5 2006, September 2006, (Beijing – China) 1st Place – Warcraft World War, October 2006, (Seoul – South Korea) 2nd Place – SuperFight II, November 2006, (Seoul – South Korea) 3rd Place – Battlenet Season 4, January 2007, (Cologne -Germany) 1st Place – Warcraft World War, February 2007, (Seoul – South Korea) 3rd Place – European Cyber Games, March 2007, (Hannover – Germany) 4th Place – World Series of Video Games, May 2007, (Wuhan – China) 3rd Place – Blizzard Worldwide Invitational, May 2007, (Los Angeles – USA) 1st Place – ESWC Dutch Qualifiers, 20 May 2007, (Enschede – Netherlands) 3rd Place – Battlenet Season 5 Europe Finals, 22–23 June 2007, (Hamburg – Germany) 3rd Place – ESWC Global Finals, 5–8 July, (Paris- France) 2nd Place – Stars War IV, 12–15 July, (Shanghai – China) 5th Place – PGL Season 2, 17–26 July 2007, (Beijing – China) 3rd Place – W3 Summer Grand Prix, 28–29 July 2007, (Seoul – South Korea) 3rd Place – Blizzcon 2007, 3–5 August 2007, (Orange County – California – USA) 3rd Place – eStars 2007, 11–12 August 2007 (Shared 3rd/4th), (Seoul – South Korea) 1st Place – WCG Dutch Finals, 30 August 2007, (Rotterdam – Netherlands) 1st Place – Clanbase EuroCup 2007, 8–9 September 2007, (Enschede – Netherlands) 1st Place – KODE5 Dutch Qualifiers, 27–28 October 2007, (Enschede – Netherlands) 1st Place – DreamHack Winter, November 2007, (Jönköping – Sweden) 2nd Place – Extreme Masters Season II, March 2008, (Hannover – Germany) 1st Place – ESWC Netherlands Qualifier 2008, 7 June 2008, (Enschede – Netherlands) 3rd Place – Blizzard Worldwide Invitational 2008, 28–29 June 2008, (Paris – France) 1st Place – WCG Netherlands Qualifier 2008, 12 July 2008, (Rotterdam – Netherlands) 1st Place – eStars Seoul, 24–27 July 2008, (Seoul – South Korea) 1st Place – EPS Benelux, 6 September 2008, (Utrecht – Netherlands) 1st Place – WCG Dutch Finals, 27 September 2008, (Amsterdam – Netherlands) 3rd Place – World e-Sports Masters 2008, 24–2 Oct–Nov 2008, (Hangzhou – China) 1st Place – World Cyber Games 2008, 5–9 November 2008, (Cologne – Germany) 1st Place – Extreme Masters III – Korea, 13–20 November 2008, (Seoul – South Korea) 2nd Place – Extreme Masters III – China, January 2009, (Chengdu – China) 2nd Place – Blizzard Battle.net Season 7 – Europe Regionals, June 2009 (Cologne – Germany) 1st Place – e-Stars 2009 – King of the Game, July 2009 (Seoul – South Korea) 2nd Place – BlizzCon 2009, August 2009 (Orange County – California – USA) 1st Place – World e-Sports Masters 2009, December 2009 (Hangzhou – China) 1st Place – Blizzard Season 8 European Regionals (Cologne – Germany) 2nd Place – e-Stars 2010 – King of the Game (Seoul – South Korea) 2nd Place – WCG 2010, October 2010 (LA – USA)
he may not have innovated much, but he executed Orc play at the highest level and was around the top of the scene for longer than any other Orc player in the world.
I followed WC3 since before TFT up until 2011. After that I only follow the more large scale tournaments ( likeG-League, WCG) Half of those tournaments there are mid tier or low tier tournaments (relatively).
I'm not saying Grubby is bad. He is definitively #3 and quite a way above Lyn, but he simply does not compare to the top 2. No way. Do not take it as if I'm saying Grubby is trash and not top 3.
On June 21 2013 00:46 Dingodile wrote: mirror is always the most random matchup. It doesn't matter whether wc3, sc1, sc2 or cnc or whatever.
Orc mirror on TFT was excessively volatile, all depending on what items the creeps drop and on how many crits your BM lands. Other mirrors (except for SC2 PvP) aren't that random tbh.
ahaha yeah I remember a grubby vs lucifron game where grubby only got rings and the item of vitality (+150) and luci only had good claws, was funny ^^
by the way dowaq, thomasg, abver and rosenkill were playing too (see 3 links for proofs ^^ thomasg renamed cupcake and was gm not so long ago)
I'd be very interested to see a current list, as I believe there's still a moderate-sized Asian scene. As far as I can tell from war3.replays.net Some big names like TH000, moon, lyn, ted, etc are still active.
On June 21 2013 00:46 Dingodile wrote: mirror is always the most random matchup. It doesn't matter whether wc3, sc1, sc2 or cnc or whatever.
Orc mirror on TFT was excessively volatile, all depending on what items the creeps drop and on how many crits your BM lands.
The crits are not that important, considering the high HP units in WC3 in general and especially for orc, it is more like an overall dps increase. The Blademaders's strength is more about the items you have. But "luck" comes with effort (a good planned out creep route.)
still... orc mirror was like the worst matchup. even with a good creep route you were at a BIG disadvantage if you got 2 ring of protection while the other BM has circlet or claws. also there were maps with only one shop (echo isles...) and the fight for the 1 pair of boots decided who could harass easily.
Wasn't Orc mirror that bad for some players that they would learn NE and off-race just to avoid the coin flip?
Offracing as elf was common for human mirror I believe.
Yea, with the way Sky developed the HvH metagame, HvH became a lot more coin-flippy. Basically it went from tier 2 and 3 fights into mass tier 1 footmen with mercenaries and often base trades.
Man I loved those T1 fights... HvH was great imo. Your topic made me reinstall War3 just so you know :p
viOlet is known for one more thing: at peak of his skill, when he became real power that can play against the best of the best there was a fire at his fathers house, so he leaved gaming and SK to help him. He returned to gaming only with SC2 release. Also he started as a great 2x2 player at A1 team with nelf player Uranus.WeRRa
On June 22 2013 20:03 Erasme wrote: Uh were other humans really offracing against sky or only th000 ? thanks for bringing me back in time
Infi did this too. Then what happened was that when Infi played TH000, they played a NE mirror. Eventually Sky fell into this temptation too and all three would just NE mirror against each other in tournaments. Sky was the worst at it though out of the three.
On June 22 2013 20:03 Erasme wrote: Uh were other humans really offracing against sky or only th000 ? thanks for bringing me back in time
Infi did this too. Then what happened was that when Infi played TH000, they played a NE mirror. Eventually Sky fell into this temptation too and all three would just NE mirror against each other in tournaments. Sky was the worst at it though out of the three.
th000 is probably the best random player. for some time he was the only one who I would find replays of on wcreplays, that would beat other topplayers with Ud
Oh man, so many awesome memories. I remember always hating Sky and Infi and their tower rushes and rooting for whoever they were against haha. And Moon didn't play Night Elf; he was the 5th race.
4k was my favorite team. ToD/Grubby/Creo was just so much dominance in a single foreign team. Creo's WCG 2007 journey is probably my favorite storyline in all of WC3 history.
No Fly, no TH000... Madfrog in 8th. Um, yeah... I don't really see how these can be considered "power rankings." I get the whole "only SC2 players" angle, but that paints a very, very narrow picture of the scene. You're missing out some of the best players the game had to offer. People often don't seem to realise that most of the ex-WC3 players who do well in SC2 were mostly fairly average in WC3 and by missing out the non-SC2 player from this list i think the OP is continuing that misconception. You did rightly mention that Naniwa was more famous for his behaviour than for this skill but a lot of the top European SC2 players were average-to-good in WC3 (by pro standards, obviously).
This list seems pretty random. You seem to be mixing historic accomplishments and the skill level at the end of Wc3 as your deciding factors. Also I'm missing some pretty big names in your top ten while there are players like Lucifron who was just a very promising talent. Also tak3r mostly played for mtw while I remember take mostly for being on SK maybe they were on the same team for a brief period but I honestly doubt it.
You're underrating Rotterdam. He was definitely better than someone like Hasuobs, who never did much outside the german scene. Rotterdam however played evenly with most players in the world, and often beat Grubby for example. I also think it's unfair to call Check a mediocre korean. When he played NE he was consistently regarded as a top 5 elf player in the world.
Also, never knew GoStop played SC2? What was his ID?
Swain/Showbu was an awesome player around 2003-2004. He was definitely the best human player in the world before the scene exploded. I remember SK.HeMan ridiculing someone who mentioned the european humans were better than him.
Anyone remember how good Zacard and FoV were at certain times? I remember in the time around ESWC 2004, FoV was such an unbeatable beast. And then later Zacard appeared with his mass wind raiders strat, totally dominated everyone. I think he all-killed the Europe team in the Korea vs Europe showmatch iirc. People were so surprised when Grubby beat him in the wcg finals, as he was generally regarded as slightly better than Grubby at that time.
A random not very good, but insanely entertaining player was mYm.Bjarke. Another fun dane to watch was 4k.Kaj. I was always quick to download replays from them, as I knew I would be in for a treat.
I also don't think results in the later years should count for much. Orc was way too imbalanced, as witnessed by the domination of Fly/Lyn/Grubby/Lucifron. Poor undeads.
A very good european undead was 64AMD.WinneR. He was however extremely bad mannered and childish, so he probably never got the recognition he deserved for his skills. He finished third in the prestigeous WEG III tournament, and was the best european undead for a year or so until he started getting too frustrated with Orc, and lost motivation (?). That he beat the korean undeads more than they beat him, was a testament to his skills.
My list would be something like:
(I'm definitely biased in favour the players who were around from 2004-2007, as I feel that was when the scene was at its peak):
The order from 4-20 are very interchangable really. ToD probably wouldn't be a favorite against most players below him, but he was probably more consistent than any of them, and he won the hardest wc3 tournament there was.
WC3 had so many really entertaining players that would have unique stylistic traits. I can't remember which player it was, but there was one person that would always try to make blood mage first builds work. He didn't do terribly well, but he managed to get a lot of publicity on the replay sharing sites, and the community would talk about him in discussing whether the blood mage was too weak or not. I don't feel like the same thing exists for SC2, you have less units, less races and play styles are more streamlined. I don't know if this is because the game is so competitive that you can't really afford to drift off into idiosyncrasy and still be relevant or because of some underlying game design factor.
On June 23 2013 23:55 Grumbels wrote: WC3 had so many really entertaining players that would have unique stylistic traits. I can't remember which player it was, but there was one person that would always try to make blood mage first builds work. He didn't do terribly well, but he managed to get a lot of publicity on the replay sharing sites, and the community would talk about him in discussing whether the blood mage was too weak or not. I don't feel like the same thing exists for SC2, you have less units, less races and play styles are more streamlined. I don't know if this is because the game is so competitive that you can't really afford to drift off into idiosyncrasy and still be relevant or because of some underlying game design factor.
ANGRY_KOREA_MAN I guess?
As for the rest of your post, I guess there was some stylistic diversity, but it was also sparse at a certain level of competition. Orc slapping around UD and NE slapping around Orc from a certain point on got pretty stale.
On June 23 2013 23:55 Grumbels wrote: WC3 had so many really entertaining players that would have unique stylistic traits. I can't remember which player it was, but there was one person that would always try to make blood mage first builds work. He didn't do terribly well, but he managed to get a lot of publicity on the replay sharing sites, and the community would talk about him in discussing whether the blood mage was too weak or not. I don't feel like the same thing exists for SC2, you have less units, less races and play styles are more streamlined. I don't know if this is because the game is so competitive that you can't really afford to drift off into idiosyncrasy and still be relevant or because of some underlying game design factor.
ANGRY_KOREA_MAN I guess?
As for the rest of your post, I guess there was some stylistic diversity, but it was also sparse at a certain level of competition. Orc slapping around UD and NE slapping around Orc from a certain point on got pretty stale.
I think WC3 < SC2 for pro level play, but that WC3 > SC2 for amateur level play. I think it's because micro is so important that you can make every style work, so it's only at the absolute top that you were forced into always playing the same way, whereas on a lower level it's probably better to become noticed for your unique approach to the game.
Anyone care to explain to an (extremely) casual former warcraft 3 player, who was never aware there was a proscene, why Lucifron was known as an Orc abuser? Also really curious to understand why people always say Undead is the most underpowered. When I play LANs with friends I always found undead the most fun, although that's just at a super casual level.
On June 24 2013 23:04 xAdra wrote: Anyone care to explain to an (extremely) casual former warcraft 3 player, who was never aware there was a proscene, why Lucifron was known as an Orc abuser? Also really curious to understand why people always say Undead is the most underpowered. When I play LANs with friends I always found undead the most fun, although that's just at a super casual level.
Once the blademaster hits level 3 he gets free maphack basically and runs around the map tracking your army and annoying the hell out of you, blademaster dps was ridiculous and allowed orcs to dominate by stacking claws and circlets. Undead isn't really that underpowered against any of the other races, but Undead vs Orc is really hard for Undeads. Later when humans started playing around Paladin/MK first strats on certain maps it got really annoying cause divine shield and holy light harass was (((((
Edit: I think people really underrate Lucifer cause he was slumping so hard by the end of the WC3 scene, but he nearly won back to back ESWCs and was a really dominant player
To put the UD vs Orc imbalance into perspective, the best Undead vs Orc player in the world, Ted, a player who revolutionized this matchup many times over, only has/had a 51% win rate against Orc. Most other Undeads hovered around the 30%s-40%s. Meanwhile, typical Orc vs UD win rates from the top Orcs in the world ranged from 60% all the way to the low 80%s.
On June 24 2013 23:04 xAdra wrote: Anyone care to explain to an (extremely) casual former warcraft 3 player, who was never aware there was a proscene, why Lucifron was known as an Orc abuser? Also really curious to understand why people always say Undead is the most underpowered. When I play LANs with friends I always found undead the most fun, although that's just at a super casual level.
Orc abuser would be the same as calling a zerg player at the end of Wings a patchzerg. Lucifron's rise is often considered a side effect of a lot of Orcs all doing well in that time period rather than actual skill. Most of this is rooted in the fact that no one broke into the wc3 scene in the later years; Lucifron is one of the few players who wasn't playing from the start who has some results. He is no Grubby, but I wouldn't just label him as an orc abuser either.
Thanks for answering everyone, those UD vs Orc winrates were really shocking. What was it about undead that made them particularly susceptible to the Blademaster though? It saddens me to see less than 5 undead players in such a long power rank
OMG !!!! What about russian DEADMAN !! perhaps 5 - 6 in history ranking. Of course FOV, unbeateable, Lucifer the forever second . Fly100%
Special mention to TH000 , more creative player in history , at same level as Moon, his game was always funny and ofensive, even managing drops as best terran players.
I think WC3 < SC2 for pro level play, but that WC3 > SC2 for amateur level play. I think it's because micro is so important that you can make every style work, so it's only at the absolute top that you were forced into always playing the same way, whereas on a lower level it's probably better to become noticed for your unique approach to the game.
WC3 >> SC2 in all .
MUCH more micro, and more differents micro-technics , hero use (funniest) , items as Dota or LoL ; little less macro.
At this moment, looking a SC2 replay is more often boring in 80% of cases W3 replays were always different, not only at amateur levels in pro too, millions of differents strats depending on heroes
On June 26 2013 08:34 trutoman wrote: OMG !!!! What about russian DEADMAN !! perhaps 5 - 6 in history ranking. Of course FOV, unbeateable, Lucifer the forever second . Fly100%
Special mention to TH000 , more creative player in history , at same level as Moon, his game was always funny and ofensive, even managing drops as best terran players.
I think WC3 < SC2 for pro level play, but that WC3 > SC2 for amateur level play. I think it's because micro is so important that you can make every style work, so it's only at the absolute top that you were forced into always playing the same way, whereas on a lower level it's probably better to become noticed for your unique approach to the game.
WC3 >> SC2 in all .
MUCH more micro, and more differents micro-technics , hero use (funniest) , items as Dota or LoL ; little less macro.
At this moment, looking a SC2 replay is more often boring in 80% of cases W3 replays were always different, not only at amateur levels in pro too, millions of differents strats depending on heroes
Except that wc3 has blatant imbalance, sc2 doesn't...and it has that random factor in the item drops of creeps, which makes things a little less healthy for the competitive scene.
I think WC3 < SC2 for pro level play, but that WC3 > SC2 for amateur level play. I think it's because micro is so important that you can make every style work, so it's only at the absolute top that you were forced into always playing the same way, whereas on a lower level it's probably better to become noticed for your unique approach to the game.
WC3 >> SC2 in all .
MUCH more micro, and more differents micro-technics , hero use (funniest) , items as Dota or LoL ; little less macro.
At this moment, looking a SC2 replay is more often boring in 80% of cases W3 replays were always different, not only at amateur levels in pro too, millions of differents strats depending on heroes
Except that wc3 has blatant imbalance, sc2 doesn't...and it has that random factor in the item drops of creeps, which makes things a little less healthy for the competitive scene.
Yes, wc3 has random factors in the form of item drops, random damage, crits, creep paths, and even marketplace restock. But at the same time, significant build order advantages were very rare since everyone basically did the same thing. Only two I can think of off the top of my head is the MK/AM vs DH/Warden mindgame in Human vs NE (MK > Warden > AM > DH > MK).
Grubby made a note of the difference between the two games as he was switching to SC2. I also believe this is one of the biggest reasons Happy wasn't as successful at first in SC2.
Wc3 is such a great game , I still remember back in school when some guy told me to go to a lan cafe and check the game out , all the years of playing on b.net , the lan cafes , watching sky destroy everyone ( I am a sky fan boy ) priceless memories.
On June 23 2013 23:55 Grumbels wrote: WC3 had so many really entertaining players that would have unique stylistic traits. I can't remember which player it was, but there was one person that would always try to make blood mage first builds work. He didn't do terribly well, but he managed to get a lot of publicity on the replay sharing sites, and the community would talk about him in discussing whether the blood mage was too weak or not. I don't feel like the same thing exists for SC2, you have less units, less races and play styles are more streamlined. I don't know if this is because the game is so competitive that you can't really afford to drift off into idiosyncrasy and still be relevant or because of some underlying game design factor.
This post is so damn right!
I would always search for replays fom bosuhe because somehow he made necromancer based play work on a professional level. I don't know if he dabbled in sc2 though - maybe he's still playing wc3 in china :D
ThorZaiN(H): Started quite late and was getting good near the end of WC3 - Was one of the strongest players in the amatuer/semi pro scene playing for GaB during the last year of wc3, one of the best human from Europe in shape at the time(sorry ToD!)
Macsed(NE): Was consistently overshadowed by other Chinese players and was probably better than this ranking suggests. - The best Chinese online player ever, he constantly competed against people with 90-150 ping with 300-350 ping, followed closely by moonfans (Bei)
Rotterdam(O): Known for using Farseer when everyone used Blademaster. Also known for being good at OvO and sometimes qualifying over Grubby in Dutch qualifiers. - He wasn't playing at the end of wc3, I wouldn't lump him with the other players that are listed in this portion. He was a good player, but never anything special.
Ciara(O): Known for being recruited onto EG so they could have a third player to play team leagues with. - Consistency is what comes to mind with Ciara, unfortunately for him it means constantly being average. Never good enough to win, but good enough to make you lose.
Titan(NE): One of the better Russians near the end of WC3 - Young stud who DOMINATED amateur leagues
Nightend(U): An underrated Undead player. - This fucker never talked to me once when I was admin of his group for an amateur league, I assume it was due to sc2 at the time but that shit still rubs me the wrong way. I personally think VortiX was a better undead, but thats probably my bias (VortiX was always super nice, nightend was always super douchey)
Vortix(U): Was way overshadowed by his brother. However, in interviews, Lucifron stated that Vortix had a better win ratio against him than any other Undead in the world. - The best amateur/semi pro player in Europe at the end of wc3, him and his brother Ryo ran a solid team under x6tence who were constantly competing for first place in amateur tournaments.
Kas(H): Known for getting into semifinals of online cups - KASMATUY!!! One of my favourite players to host for, always fun, always chatty, taught me what pizdec means. In wc3 he was with Thorzain as one of the best humans in europe at the end of wc3. This dude had micro, head games, macro. He was the full package near the end of wc3 and was only a few mechanical errors behind Chinese powerhouse humans.
Elfiittaja(U): A decent Undead.- Average
Targa(NE): Honestly don't remember much - Average
Naama(O): Was the brother of another WC3 player, Sein. Otherwise, don't remember much. -Naama was a BEAST in the amateur scene, he would rank above kiwikaki, but below Ciara and Lucifron.
Kiwikaki(O):: Probably the second best player from North America near the end of WC3, overshadowed only by Nilknarf. - Canadas WCG representative, constantly signed to a semi pro team even though he was big into poker.
Naniwa(U): Known more for BM than skill - Actually he was quite known for being good, just there was stories about him getting in fights with his parents, as well as being actively BM which made people distance themselves from him.
Stephano(H): I can't recall any major accomplishments, but he did go to LANs and went a bit far into cups. - played for aAa, was overshadowed by their elf players as well as aAa.Monster. Was just too young to really make an impact until wc3 had fizzled out and the lack of money probably turned away his interest.
SjoW(H): Known for being a part of the best 2v2 team with Delicato in early WC3. - retired before I came around
Bly4eg(U): Mostly online player - Beast mode amateur player.
Cruncher(U): One of the better North Americans near the end of WC3 - Which isn't saying much...he also played human at the end if i recall correctly.
Moonglade(NE): A night elf. Possibly higher, I don't remember much. - He was more accomplished than the Americans, good LAN nerves.
Take(H): I just remember it being funny that he was on the same team as a player named tak3r.
Axslav(R): Known for his 2v2 team with Strifeco. They both massed huntresses and consistently beat all other top teams which consisted of top 1v1 players. Played random in WC3. - Not just for potm/kotg hunts in 2v2, but also the only strategical genius that America had. Its a shame his mechanical skill is not on par with Koreans as he would be our shining beacon of hope to win an international title. (with franklin retiring so early into his career as well) Was also competing in broodwar at the time, or so he told me. Also Axslav stopped playing random and started race choosing based on his opponent, so while he could play multiple races, he specialized in specific match-ups, and especially favouring the human race
Strifeco(NE): see Axslav - Competing in BW with axslav. generally not giving a fuck and having fun. pretty inactive compared to the slav near the end of wc3.
Sorry for the revive, I wrote all this out and I didn't want it to be no reason at all :p didn't realize I was reviving a dead post until I was done !
EPT
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lololol 000 hahaha >.<
mOOnGLaDe
