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Lately, two very dangerous phenomena increase largely in the country: a national form and a kind of masochism roughened intolerance, verging on fascism - sometimes surpassing them.
Indeed very heavy intrinsic pathologies of Greek reality lead to conclusions of the following form: Our lenders are correct that want to get from Greece the administration of the country from inside our hands, we are unworthy to have a state, we're all crooks, here come the Germans to "make us better"....
And all these, and other things, investing and a strong dose of intolerance, verging on fascism: those with the above ideas, have strong opinions and they dont allow others to disagree, and those who do not agree with them, get heavily shouted at. But it is unacceptable in a democracy, that violence and jeering, which is the other side of the same coin.
For this, noone is talking...
So, let's all calm down, to those that have decided that Greece should be wiped off the map and in it's place should be born a protectorate that everyone will have reason, except themselves Greeks. Let them make an effort to escape the hatred.
Increasing the depreciation of a country's people, and burning at the stake of any other term that is not consistent with these views ... noble, it's nothing else than primitivism. It is the matrix of every fascism.
Those who have come to hate their homeland and to abhor so, they only have to do what is the simplest thing to do: if the allergy causes that much then they may abandon it. A whole "holy" world awaits them outside the Greek borders ... Why should I live in a national paranoia sadomasochism? Let's throw black stone behind them and let the rest of us see how will we be able to build from scratch our society ...
Also, another way of reaction, which is much more direct this time, are the elections: we gather to make a party, for example, we could name it "I hate Greece" and invite our fellow citizens to vote. Why not? We are Republic, as of now, we have freedom, even so, with an application to the Court with a few signatures, ready to party.
In programmatic positions can we summon them at times saying we are a miserable place, we are the scammers who just want to feed our German suckers, we are all thieves, we are unworthy to be free and we would do well to shut up and sit down and do whatever the foreigners want us to do without saying a word. And whoever has a different opinion, he can go have a walk on Makronisos or somewhere else ...
Well, to finish: cursing their homeland and its people, especially at suffering.
If they want to do it, let's all do it. Their right. Their motives, whether they belong to psychiatric sphere, ranging from loss or achievements, or anything else, is a matter for them.
Our theme, is that we are proud to be Greek. Very proud. And it's not going to do a favor for anyone to miss our pride.
The huge pathogenesis of this place that must be addressed at all costs, is a great and urgent matter. But for those who are not ashamed to be Greek. Why those pathogenesis is so inconceivably deeper and more dangerous, those that should not lose their time with anything else. It is only to look. And have optimism: even for this, a solution should exist ... The science has progressed ...
On a side note.
I wanted to write all this because lately I see from different sources all this hate about Greece etc.
[ http://www.helpivanmartin.org/2013/01/ivan-martin-free-on-bail/ ]
quote from [ http://www.helpivanmartin.org/ ] "The men supposedly rerecorded and photographed strategic military objects to be used in an upcoming military shooter."
As I heard last night from a friend when the two developers first got some footage, they were told that this was against the law and they should leave immediatly. After a while the two returned to "rerecord" etc. So, no wonder they got in jail.
And let me ask you this and I close my blog. What if the same happened in the U.S, what would be the sentence and the consequences... we would have ended up possibly in Guantanamo Bay.
And about the bail... if they will not end up guildy (which they will not) they will get the money back. So all those comments written by 12y old "fuck greece" "greece planned all this to get the money because they suck" gets on me.
 
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On January 16 2013 18:47 Myrkskog wrote:
I like spanakopita.
I like Feta and foreigners like tzatziki, ouzo and gyros.
PS: Jamie Oliver in one of his episodes had a water mellon and was saying it was the most tasteless fruit there is and that it is rubbish. I bet he didnt try water mellon in the summer in Greece...
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I tried reading all that but all I got were ????
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I worry about Greece. Greece is most known for a great ruin in the middle of the capital but the current generations has not matched the successes of ancient Greece. Where are the products, monuments and services that will accompany Greece into the future?
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On January 16 2013 20:09 archonOOid wrote:
I worry about Greece. Greece is most known for a great ruin in the middle of the capital but the current generations has not matched the successes of ancient Greece. Where are the products, monuments and services that will accompany Greece into the future?
I do not fully understand what your question is. At first I was about to tell you on doing some more research and see what Greeks all over the world have managed to accomplish in the last decade but then I realized you were not talking about Greeks rather than Greece itself. Greece has many products (agricultural for example, monuments (alot) but indeed lacks of services. The public sector is really a mess and is now trying alot harder to make up for it. The last time I went to pay for a simple "tax" for my car they were very polite etc, 2 years ago, they would have told me to go talk with someone else for me to pay and be very rude with holding a coffee in their hand. Also the politicians the only thing they ever do is blame each other and fight with each other like small children, rather than try to all work together and fix Greece's issues.
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On January 16 2013 19:34 htn2481 wrote:
I tried reading all that but all I got were ????
100% same here... I have no Idea what the OP was actually saying. Do you others really understand him?
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On January 16 2013 20:45 Velr wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 19:34 htn2481 wrote:
I tried reading all that but all I got were ???? 100% same here... I have no Idea what the OP was actually saying. Do you others really understand him?
What do you not understand, maybe I can try and explain it to you. do you really get "????" like sometimes happens in some emails I randomly receive from chinese people?
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no idea what the OP wanted to tell us.
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On January 16 2013 21:38 Skilledblob wrote:
no idea what the OP wanted to tell us.
I am trying to say that Greece/Greeks are not what the rest of the world might think they are. There is many people all over the internet that are bashing Greece without a reason. I also gave links to an example of this attitude with a recent incident that happened to two game developers trying to record footage of military objects which is illegal but still the world hated on Greece because the action they took was totally wrong...
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loosely translated:
Europeans that are forced to lend to Greece due to its precarious economic position have low opinions of Greeks as a result. They see them as lazy and spoiled as they are taking what they perceive as "their" money to Greeks that may or may not have spent beyond their means and are now getting bit for it. The author is complaining that this is bullshit and that Greeks are very hard working and don't deserve this reputation.
At the same time the author is worried about some elements of Greek nationalism that are verging on or actually fascist. He thinks its great to be nationalist and have pride in ones own country. Basically he considers himself a moderate between Greek hating Europeans and Fascist Greeks.
As for why Greece is in this state, as opposed to all the other countries in Europe, consider: Greece used to rule what was all Turkey, under the auspices of the Byzantine/Eastern Roman Empire. Then they were conquered by the Ottoman Empire and essentially treated as second class citizens. Their main region remained relatively undeveloped, while the regions they had developed (Constantinople, Antanolia etc.) were considered "Turkish." When Greece finally got it's independence, it was first ruled by foreign governments and then was bullied around by the major powers ultimately never really had a chance to industrialize properly. Then in the Cold War Period, while Greece remained free of Communist control, it was totally surrounded by land and ultimately was ruled by an iron-fist government propped up by US control to keep the Communists out. It was only after the Cold War that Greece started to develop, and they were tempted by low interest loans to expand rapidly. Which bit them in the ass, and now the rest of Europe is paying for it.
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there is no europe without greece
and i fucking love your food
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May want to scale down on the vocabulary a bit, OP. All it's doing is emphasizing your grammar problems. I don't think I understood a single sentence you said.
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On January 16 2013 22:06 ffswowsucks wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 21:38 Skilledblob wrote:
no idea what the OP wanted to tell us. I am trying to say that Greece/Greeks are not what the rest of the world might think they are. There is many people all over the internet that are bashing Greece without a reason. I also gave links to an example of this attitude with a recent incident that happened to two game developers trying to record footage of military objects which is illegal but still the world hated on Greece because the action they took was totally wrong...
sorry but you cant denie that a lot of greeks have a questionable relationship to taxes. This is a problem that has to be solved and if that only works through the EU forcing it on the greeks then so be it. I am not doubting that there are many hard working greeks but widespread taxfraud and corruption has to stop first before the country can prosper again.
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Shouldn't take pride in imaginary lines drawn by powerful people aeons ago. Take pride in the stuff your mom had to sacrifice to raise you. Take pride in the work of the people that gives you food, take pride in the air that made you be, take pride in the ground that gave birth to you. Take pride in the beautiful things of the culture of your ethnic ancestry while questioning the ugly things. You don't need to take pride in the institution of humans segregated by flags.
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On January 16 2013 22:57 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
May want to scale down on the vocabulary a bit, OP. All it's doing is emphasizing your grammar problems. I don't think I understood a single sentence you said.
Thanx for the tip but I would appreciated it if more people would start commenting on what my thoughts are rather than pointing out mistakes I might have made in my grammar. Besides, english is not my mother language.
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I really can't understand what you're trying to write, even though I want to. Sorry OP.
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On January 17 2013 00:21 ffswowsucks wrote:Show nested quote +On January 16 2013 22:57 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:
May want to scale down on the vocabulary a bit, OP. All it's doing is emphasizing your grammar problems. I don't think I understood a single sentence you said. Thanx for the tip but I would appreciated it if more people would start commenting on what my thoughts are rather than pointing out mistakes I might have made in my grammar. Besides, english is not my mother language.
Yes, but in order for people to understand your text you should concentrate on making it readable first. There is no need to use pointlessly difficult vocabulary to communicate something that can be explained using a less confusing choice of words. Most people won't give you shit for less than perfect English since you're not a native speaker, but if multiple people tell you they have trouble understanding what you wrote, then you should take it seriously and not just shrug it off like that.
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I have changed the OP a bit so it does not have major grammar mistakes. I am sorry to everyone but I wrote that in a kind of a hurry in the morning. Hope it doesnt confuse anyone in the future. Also thanks to Caller who summarized it a bit in a better way.
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I do not think Greece is going to be "dissolved," nor do I think Greece will become Fascist. I think a lot of your fears are unrelated to the main problem.
The main problem is as follows. Greece has made several huge financial obligations that they can't afford. People cannot retire in their mid-50's because it drastically lowers productivity. People cannot have lavish retirement benefits so early because it dramatically inflates government spending and debt. And the government cannot deficit spend to artificially grow the economy (like it did in the early 2000's) because the debt will eventually hurt them in the long run (or, in this case, right now).
It is true that the other European contries are imposing harsh austerity measures, and Greece feels like it has no say. Yet, all of this unemployment, austerity, and general unrest is due to one reason. Your Socialist government made promises they couldn't keep nor afford, and now everyone is paying the price.
What can Greece do right now? Tbh, I don't know. Greece is in a hard situation. But since your economy and GDP is dependent on government spending, increased taxation and reduced spending will only continue hurting you. Having other countries bail you out will only create more difficult financial obligations in the future that will hurt growth. And if Greece collapses, the international economy will suffer (especially countries that use the Euro) because countries are connected. I think Greece is in a Catch 22, and unless someone comes up with an ingenious idea, Greece will be stuck in this predicament for several years to come.
Finally, in my opinion, many countries (like Spain, France, and America) will one day collapse under its own government defecit and unrealistic promsies. I think Greece is just ahead of curve.
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I am not sure if Theseus Papadopulus, the little fisherman vom Ouzo Island should be condemned for his lazyness, because he is too easy to be fooled by his politicians, who keep their own corrupt money far away on distant bank accounts, laugh at democracy and ruin countries, blaming other people for it.
The only thing Theseus Papadopulus is guilty of, is not slaughtering all those criminals, who spit in his face, laughing behind his back, stealing his belongings, and who can blame him for that really?
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I disagree with you, Kuni. An average fishermen (Theseus Papadopulus) is guilty of the following wrong-doings:
1. For woting socialists into power.
2. For tax evasion.
3. For not protesting against inflated public spending.
4. For not protesting against 13-th and 14-hs wages.
5. For retiring at the age of 52.
6. For protesting against public spending cuts which are definitely necessary.
7. For calling Germans as Nazis instead of saying "thank you" for all billions and billions of Euros that the Germans give to the Greeks.
The Germans, Dutch, Austrian, Finnish and Estonian people are paying Greek debts, and instead of saying thank you, Greek people are burning German flags. An average person in Estonia earns less than a Greek pensioner gets a month, and Estonians are paying Greek debts. This is very sad. Greek people think that they live in austerity, but their austerity measures are a joke comparing to austerity in many other countries, like the Baltic states. Estonia had a 20% recession on its own during the crisis, and now it is forced upon paying greek debts.
And another comment as faras blaming Greek history for the current situation: Countries like Poland lived under a brutal communist regime until 90s. And they are not asking for any bail-outs.
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Another remark about people getting "fooled by polititians". This the worst possible excuse. I have much respect for Germany despiite its troublesome past, because German people are able to acknowledge their past mistakes. Those people who were "fooled" by nazis are not innocent as they contributed to the crime themselves, and the Germans seem to agree with this point of view. This is their moral strength. The same applies to people who were fooled by communists, and the same applies to all "innocent fishermen" who enjoyed getting retired at the age of 52 and repeatedly voted for those sneaky socialists who cheated their way into the Eurozone and wasted their countries resources. But the worst thing is that Greek people do not seem to be able to acknowledge their own past mistakes and instead blame Germany for everying. Drawing svastikas on German flags and burning them is the most symbolic, horrible and saddest sign of a total and devastating hypocrisy.
Lets be honest, this is what Greece has done recently:
1. Borrowed 200 billion euros and wasted them all.
2. With a help of Goldman-Sachs faked their accountancy sheets and got into the Eurozone.
3. Now they can not pay their debts back, however they still want to keep their righe life-styles despite the fact thet they can not afford it. Any attempt to cut govenrment spendings is hevily protested against. In the meantime no one was protesting when the government was wasting money.
4. Could not force its own citizens to pay taxes.
What the Greek people should do:
Exit the Euro-zone. The eurozone would be much better-off without them. As a consequence, they could reintroduce their own currecy and print as much of it as they like. Of course, they would not be abe to afford volkswagens any more, and an average salary would drop by 70-80%, but at least Greek youth would be able to find a job.
I disagree when people say that the German money is taken by the polititians, it is not. It is taken by pensioners, and public secotor employees. In other words, the German money is taken by the older generation at the expense of the youth, which are going to become a lost generation unless Greece reintroduces drachma.
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I don't really understand why anyone would be proud of a country. Being proud of other people's achievements, imaginary lines in a map and skewed view of history? Why not take pride in the stuff that you do and that makes you who you are?
It is pretty retarded that people should pay for politicians'/bankers' fuckups, but there's no need to be so nationalistic/racist.
Oh, and pointing at someone who's even worse (US in this case) doesn't make you any better.
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On March 28 2013 22:29 qlwdmh wrote:
I disagree with you, Kuni. An average fishermen (Theseus Papadopulus) is guilty of the following wrong-doings:
1. For woting socialists into power.
2. For tax evasion.
3. For not protesting against inflated public spending.
4. For not protesting against 13-th and 14-hs wages.
5. For retiring at the age of 52.
6. For protesting against public spending cuts which are definitely necessary.
7. For calling Germans as Nazis instead of saying "thank you" for all billions and billions of Euros that the Germans give to the Greeks.
The Germans, Dutch, Austrian, Finnish and Estonian people are paying Greek debts, and instead of saying thank you, Greek people are burning German flags. An average person in Estonia earns less than a Greek pensioner gets a month, and Estonians are paying Greek debts. This is very sad. Greek people think that they live in austerity, but their austerity measures are a joke comparing to austerity in many other countries, like the Baltic states. Estonia had a 20% recession on its own during the crisis, and now it is forced upon paying greek debts.
And another comment as faras blaming Greek history for the current situation: Countries like Poland lived under a brutal communist regime until 90s. And they are not asking for any bail-outs.
Not every average greek fisherman (or "normal working person") evades taxes, retires at 52, protests against spending cuts and calls Germans Nazis so it would be great if you could keep the stupid generalization to a minimum
edit: I can't english
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This is an argument based on emotions and feelings rather than economic debate...
The shit that happened to greece, portugal, almost spain, italy, and the recent bail outs in cyprus just demonstrates the definition of a "highly volatile environment". This is only temporary though, people have been losing faith for years. After what period of time do you stop losing faith and start seeing things a different way?
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On March 29 2013 02:07 Linwelin wrote:
Not every average greek fisherman (or "normal working person") evades taxes, retires at 52, protests against spending cuts and calls Germans Nazis so it would be great if you could keep the stupid generalization to a minimum
edit: I can't english
I agree that I overgeneralized and I am sorry for that. However saying that poor greeks were robbed by their polititians and hence other nations have to bail them out is just so wrong. The majority of Greek people voted those socialists into power, so those people also have to take a responsiblitily. I am not claiming that every single greek is guilty or should be punished - definitely not. What I am saying is that a signifficant proportion of greek people seem to be blaming the Germans instead of thinking what their own country did wrong. Also, a signiffcant proportion of the population evaded taxes, and quite a lot of people were protesting against government cuts by burning German flags and drawing Hitler's moustashe on Merkel's face instead of saying thank you. This is an insult to the people who are saving their asses. The fact that relatively poor Estonians (who do not earn as much as greek pensioners get every month) have to bail Greece out is just so damn wrong.
What greek people have to understand is that they can not continue living their good lives at the expense of Northern nations. Cuts have to be made, and the sooner the better. If they want to earn much, they have to export much. If they want to export much, they have to have cheaper labour. if they want to have cheaper labout, they have to make cuts. This is as simple as it can get.
Baltic states managed to have huge cuts during the crisis. People should take Latvia as an example how to get out of an economic crisis. This country experienced a 20% recession, made public spending cuts which amounted to almost 50 percent. Some people lost a third of their salaries, some lost a half. However, Latvia managed to get out of the crisis and since 2011 experieces growth again . Of course, at one point Latvia had taken 7.5 billion USD loand from the IMF, however it has already been paid back. Instead of protesting, Latvian people reelected the government which made all those cuts. I think this is an example to be admired, and some southern nations should learn from it.
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On April 04 2013 04:22 qlwdmh wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 02:07 Linwelin wrote:
Not every average greek fisherman (or "normal working person") evades taxes, retires at 52, protests against spending cuts and calls Germans Nazis so it would be great if you could keep the stupid generalization to a minimum
edit: I can't english I agree that I overgeneralized and I am sorry for that. However saying that poor greeks were robbed by their polititians and hence other nations have to bail them out is just so wrong. The majority of Greek people voted those socialists into power, so those people also have to take a responsiblitily. I am not claiming that every single greek is guilty or should be punished - definitely not. What I am saying is that a signifficant proportion of greek people seem to be blaming the Germans instead of thinking what their own country did wrong. Also, a signiffcant proportion of the population evaded taxes, and quite a lot of people were protesting against government cuts by burning German flags and drawing Hitler's moustashe on Merkel's face instead of saying thank you. This is an insult to the people who are saving their asses. The fact that relatively poor Estonians (who do not earn as much as greek pensioners get every month) have to bail Greece out is just so damn wrong. What greek people have to understand is that they can not continue living their good lives at the expense of Northern nations. Cuts have to be made, and the sooner the better. If they want to earn much, they have to export much. If they want to export much, they have to have cheaper labour. if they want to have cheaper labout, they have to make cuts. This is as simple as it can get. Baltic states managed to have huge cuts during the crisis. People should take Latvia as an example how to get out of an economic crisis. This country experienced a 20 recession, made public spending cuts which amounted to almost 50 percent. Some people lost a third of their salaries, some lost a half. However, Latvia managed to get out of the crisis and since 2011 experieces growth again . Of course, at one point Latvia had taken 7.5 billion USD loand from the IMF, however it has already paid it back. Instead of protesting people reelected the government which made all those cuts. I think this is an example to be admired, and some southern nations should learn from it.
you can write a wall of text but if you read line by line of what u are saying you clearly have no idea of what u are talking about.
To quote "However saying that poor greeks were robbed by their polititians and hence other nations have to bail them out is just so wrong". You are wrong, greek people got robbed by their politician and everyone is happy that many big names are now are being sent out in jail.
"What I am saying is that a signifficant proportion of greek people seem to be blaming the Germans instead of thinking what their own country did wrong". We mostly blame how this Country is run by it's system. I dont blame the Germans. about Cyprus tho, that is another story, I would blame the Germans.
"What greek people have to understand is that they can not continue living their good lives at the expense of Northern nations" now you have over-done it buddy. Greeks live like shit at the moment, we just know how to have fun with little money. Who told you that we live good lives etc etc. Have you been in Greece lately? if we were living like kings, then why all of our young people are leaving for other countries, because we are living so great here? because there are jobs here?
You again overgeneralized.
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On March 29 2013 01:44 3772 wrote:
I don't really understand why anyone would be proud of a country. Being proud of other people's achievements, imaginary lines in a map and skewed view of history? Why not take pride in the stuff that you do and that makes you who you are?
It is pretty retarded that people should pay for politicians'/bankers' fuckups, but there's no need to be so nationalistic/racist.
Oh, and pointing at someone who's even worse (US in this case) doesn't make you any better.
I guess everytime you visit a country, you do not care of it's background, it's history, it's accomplishments, it's structure, it's music influences etc etc etc. And that can also make you proud of humanity and what it has achieved.
You posted something that personally i find one of the worst posts ive read in a long time. and i read alot of posts. Sorry
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Latvia could turn itself around because it's a 2nd world country and the people realize that. Greek has never been exporting anything except some agriculture and tourism, they've never been first world but they borrowed to live that way. Now they're economy is worse than a lot of developing countries but the people feel like they deserve to live like the rest of Europe. It's impossible to bridge such a huge gap.
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On April 04 2013 06:56 ffswowsucks wrote:Show nested quote +On March 29 2013 01:44 3772 wrote:
I don't really understand why anyone would be proud of a country. Being proud of other people's achievements, imaginary lines in a map and skewed view of history? Why not take pride in the stuff that you do and that makes you who you are?
It is pretty retarded that people should pay for politicians'/bankers' fuckups, but there's no need to be so nationalistic/racist.
Oh, and pointing at someone who's even worse (US in this case) doesn't make you any better. I guess everytime you visit a country, you do not care of it's background, it's history, it's accomplishments, it's structure, it's music influences etc etc etc. And that can also make you proud of humanity and what it has achieved. You posted something that personally i find one of the worst posts ive read in a long time. and i read alot of posts. Sorry
Your post is in no way mutually exclusive to his, in fact they're barely even related. I wouldn't say this is one of the worst posts I've read but it's pretty bad.
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On April 04 2013 09:49 Feartheguru wrote:
Latvia could turn itself around because it's a 2nd world country and the people realize that.
Latvia is a second world country? Even if it is, is it any worse than Greece? At least they are not asking to bail them out. And at least they are pying their debts.
On April 04 2013 09:49 Feartheguru wrote:
Greek has never been exporting anything except some agriculture and tourism, they've never been first world but they borrowed to live that way. Now they're economy is worse than a lot of developing countries but the people feel like they
deserve to live like the rest of Europe. It's impossible to bridge such a huge gap.
Well, this is what I am trying to say. They do not export much, hence they do not deserve to earn as much. And people, like the Germans and the Dutch, whom I respect a lot, deserve to have a chance not to spend their hard earned money on an extravagant lifestyle of some other nations.
On April 04 2013 06:52 ffswowsucks wrote:
To quote "However saying that poor greeks were robbed by their polititians and hence other nations have to bail them out is just so wrong". You are wrong, greek people got robbed by their politician and everyone is happy that many big names are now are being sent out in jail.
Ok, ok, poor people got robbed by the polititians who were elected by those poor people themselves (and elected repeatedly). So why on earth would the German, Dutch, Austrian, Finninsh and Estonian people have to pay greek bills? Let those polititians pay their bills.
On April 04 2013 06:52 ffswowsucks wrote:
"What I am saying is that a signifficant proportion of greek people seem to be blaming the Germans instead of thinking what their own country did wrong". We mostly blame how this Country is run by it's system. I dont blame the Germans. about Cyprus tho, that is another story, I would blame the Germans.
Not blaming is not enough. A solid "thank you" would be a good start. However, this is still very typical: ok, you do not blame the germans for Greece, but why would you blame germans because of Cyprus? Because they refused to pay ALL the bills and agreed to pay only some? Oh man, when banks get bust in some other nations, 100% of deposits are lost. This is that sort of a behaviour which makes some of the southern nations increasingly unpopular in the north.
On April 04 2013 06:52 ffswowsucks wrote:
Have you been in Greece lately? if we were living like kings, then why all of our young people are leaving for other countries, because we are living so great here? because there are jobs here?
Yes, I've been to greece, and I saw your cars. This is a beutiful thing about the EU - if you do not find a job in greece, go to Germany, Austria, the Netherlands, the UK, Ireland or anywhere else, and find a job. Many people from Poland, Hungary, Czhech republic did precisely that thing. However, if you stay in Greece and agree to work only for a salary as big as that of an Estonian surgeon (who is bailing you out), then yes, possibly it is going to be hard to find a job. Wake up, see the world yourself. There are many many countries which have their living standards much worse than that of Greece's, and they do not ask for bail-out packages.
On April 04 2013 06:52 ffswowsucks wrote:
you can write a wall of text but if you read line by line of what u are saying you clearly have no idea of what u are talking about
It is so typical to dismiss any strong argument by simply saying than an oponent has no idea what (s)he is talking about. However, if you do not understand, this is what I am trying to tell: there are many other nations who managed to get out of the crisis on their own without asking for the others to bail them out. And they are not whining or complaining a fraction comparing to what I hear from a Greek side.
Greece has to become competetive again. Hence, it must have its salaries cut in half. Why would this be so hard to understand? Latvians tried (yes, many people really lost half of their salaries, the others lost their jobs!), and they succeeded.
An average salary in Estonia is 916 euros a month, and those people are bailing YOU out. Have you ever said thank you to them? Don't you feel at least little bit ashame because of that?
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I think I understand what he's saying, but he uses a lot of translated idioms at some point. This racism against one's own country is troubling, though. There are grounds to some extent, that exist in every country, to hate an aspect of it. But this racism, i think, only largely happened after the global criticism against Greece. Also, please notice that the Fascist rise of supporters and at the same time the increase of "active", which means violently racist members of society increased after Greece became the center of attention of global media. People started asking themselves "what's wrong with us" very suddenly and came to the wrong conclusions. Young masculine men found an opportunity to gain social recognition through theoretically "going to war", in this case violent racist action, at the same time expressing their suppressed anger or fulfilling their violent impulses. It became a trend for women to find men in uniform attractive, in the first half of the crisis. It might still be so. Men in uniform have frequently bombarded protesters with tear gas that is bought second-hand and long over due. Can you imagine what a sensible citizen has to endure? But there are sensible greek citizens, by which I only mean residents. So, we need to create a much-needed distance between the countries that seek to 'fix' greece, greek politicians who have made parliament their home, so to speak, and the country itself. I think Greece like any other country, has the means for good governance and a better life in the country, generally. What no country has the means for apparently, is to build a nation while foreign governments are imposing their ideas every now and then.
If you want to know my personal opinion in more detail, read on.
Two years after the end of the Greek revolution, in 1830, our first governor was assassinated. the great powers of the time installed a Bavarian King, without a constitution. After WW2, The great powers of the time decided to leave Greece on the side of the west. Therefore, the civil war was won by the 'western' side, the right-wing nationalists. Left wing ideology only became fully accepted again in the end of 1974, after the 1967 junta, one of its presidents a former CIA agent, fell. There are more examples.
On another topic, the leader of the current fascist party, was a member of the CIA equivalent in greece, created by the former agent I mentioned earlier. So, what's more true than anything, is that the only right motives are in the hands of some residents. This system, which IS imposed and not self-created, although something remotely similar with the same name happened in the same place a long time ago, only reproduces and brings to power the most dangerous and corrupt kind of nationalist, who either uses force because he can't handle the responsibilities, or assigns them to someone else, in this case foreign governments.
So, visit if you like, come and stay here and be part of it if you want to, I would have no problem with that, if you would want to do that. but don't interfere from somewhere else! Your motives are all wrong for the task! What would help all governments is to each have their own sovereignty so we can collaborate peacefully and with harmony. Let's leave the notions of foreign aid and global management, to achieve the still pending, around the world, to establish a fair system of governance, in which effort is rewarded in order to create balance. Let's concentrate and leave these silly destructive notions aside for good.
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EPT
