EPTTSL 4: Where has the excitement gone? - Page 2
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andReslic
216 Posts
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docvoc
United States5491 Posts
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OpTiKSoul
United States13 Posts
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
Admittedly a lot has to do with the fact that I've been losing interest in SC2 lately. But who are all these people? I mean, I know most of the names and a couple of faces, and I've seen many of them play. In the Ro32, there were 3 players I personally cared about - now there aren't any. Of the 16 players that are left - I'm a fan of: 0 I kind of like: 2 I've never heard of : 5 I've heard but don't know much (if anything) about: 8 I have a decent idea of the personality and achievements of: 3 When I watch TSL, I'm getting replays of games that are sometimes "good", but they're replays, for one - of games that happen between players that mean nothing to me because I've never or barely heard of them. I don't have any stake in this, I just don't care about this tournament. From now, at least for me, the winner is going to be a number from 1 to 16. And now people just might tell me, well TSL can't do anything about that, and this is completely true. I'm not advocating that TSL fixes matches to make me happy, and I'm not even saying that this is "fixable". I'm merely saying that, this is what we have now as far as I'm concerned. For people like me who follow the SC2 scene quite a bit but somewhat casually, we've got a bunch of faceless players winning tournaments, smiling for the camera and leaving with thousands of dollars. Another notable thing is, Korean "superstars" come and go, never to be heard of again. I won't name anybody, but our American and European superstars keep much of their fans even though they slump or if they haven't showed ANY results since the switch from SCBW to SC2. So where are the real superstars? Are we ever going to have a SC2 Bonjwa or are we always going to shuffle with short-lived success stories about SC2Player#564678's lucrative 5-6 months tournament stomp followed by an endless slump. | ||
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Arachne
South Africa426 Posts
On August 06 2012 10:56 docvoc wrote: I really think all the negative response to this blog just proves how little we should take from it. Seriously, obviously from how much GMarshall and TDL have questioned his writing and how little the OP seems to understand how hindsight works, there isn't much here. There was no Spoon Terran before TSL3, and TSL3 wasn't absolutely amazing other than the fact that it brought Koreans and Foreigners together (which is awesome) but it suffered from all the other things you say that TSL4 suffers from. The scene is much more established now, so its not like we are going to find randoms that just sweep us away as much. They will happen, they will come, but it will be more of a surprise, there aren't a ton of ThorZain-s and Stephano-s they don't just wake up and say "HEY, I'm gonna win a tourney and become an amazing scene leading player and I'll just break out at TSL4 for shits and giggles," I'm not trying to be condescending, but we have seen players break out this year onto the scene, but like it has been said before, some of the players don't seem tohave prepared so well for TSL4 expecting that they will be the next ThorZain or even Scarlett. To address this post: If you don't want to take my comments seriously, I agree, you don't have to. I won't force you. However, there was no Spoon Terran before the TSL 3, however in the Ro32, there was this amazing foreigner who was building the great wall of Thorzain, who was "hacking" to find baneling land mines, and completely dominated one of the top Koreans. That gave a great story too all his next games. There is none of that in the TSL 4. Naniwa on the other hand beat the guys who beat koreans, which is also somewhat exciting, although I must admit I was rooting for Kas and Hasuobs back then, despite Thorzain's and Nani's achievements, as they seemed the stronger players on average at the time. I was wrong ^^. And yeah, we have seen players break out on the scene, but then we have seen the stalwarts who have remained on the scene. Mana/Hasuobs/Darkforce/Ret are really solid players. However, if you are looking for a breakout player, Fraer is playing against the ladder monster Kas in one of Kas's better MU's. Vortix is playing Babkyknight in a ZvP, which professional players have said that the MU is too singular (Stephano) and unwinnable if the zerg plays perfect (DRG), and lets not forget Naniwa's "I don't get this matchup" into Idra transition ("Gratz you play zerg"). To the rest: First of all, I do understand how hindsight works. or at least how I understand your comments. There is no way of going back to change the brackets and I am apparently exuding bias towards results that have already happened. I would like to say, that yes that may be possible, but on the day (ignoring my liquibet coz I vote with my heart there) i called every upset tonight. I am not upset that Hasu-obs and Thorzain gave amazing games, and after the 1st game I actually thought Thorzain had won it and had to go to bed. but... + Show Spoiler + the number 1 seed is out in a tournament where he had the best seeding and the worst draw, and I called this possibility hours before it was played. Post hoc ergo propter ftw :D (ok, not quite) I also want to say I am wrong with my seeding comments. I apologize, I do sometimes use the wrong words to express my thoughts especially while writing things down. I don't know why it happens, but its probably why i am still a student working on my dissertation after a few years. lol. :D What I meant to say, and I'll keep it short: The seeding, whatever method was chosen, was wrong. It did not accurately reflect the current strengths of the players and has resulted in high seeds with difficult games, upset potentials(the lower seeds) knocking themselves out, and generally as DJzaps put better than I ever could a lot less interest remaining in this tournament. I will update the main post with this again. This is an event that is being broadcast from replays, twice a week over a good number of weeks. Keeping interest in the event to retain sponsorships is >>>> anything else.. The numbers associated with these players is not, in my opinion, any real indication of how they will end up in the final results. Edit: Also just want to say, even when I was spouting my nonsense of rigging the matches, I never meant that you have Thorzain vs Naniwa in the Ro32 as an example, but that you had Mana maybe meeting Taeja in the Ro8 assuming that both made it thru that far. If they did it would accurately represent where I feel they should have ended up, while if they didn't you had fodder for "oh wow this guy beat taeja" or "this guy beat Mana" | ||
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Kleinmuuhg
Vanuatu4091 Posts
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huehuehuehue
Estonia455 Posts
On August 06 2012 09:13 Bagration wrote: Tournament oversaturation. Back when TSL was around, there just seemed to be fewer tournaments, so TSL was extra "special". Now it is just another tournament without a lot of the big name players that draw in viewers. Nowadays it is almost impossible to keep track of all the tournaments going on, especially since TSL isn't offline nor live. But we are still in the early stages of the tournament. These online tournaments usually build hype as it nears the finals. This for me. Tournaments are on like all the time. | ||
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virpi
Germany3599 Posts
I don't want to see known players, I want to see the best players. And newcomers are always great for the game. Of course, it's a bit hard to root for a completely unknown korean player, but I'd recommend to concentrate on the games, which were actually quite entertaining so far. I'd also like to second rannasha's post. | ||
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[UoN]Sentinel
United States11320 Posts
On August 06 2012 20:43 virpi wrote: It is a tournament, where most of the players had to qualify. So first of all, it's not TL's or the TSL's fault that there are not as much recognizable names in there as you'd like to see. The TSL isn't that super special event anymore, which is kinda sad, but unavoidable, too. There are way bigger tournaments like the MLG series, the WCS and the IPL, and on the "personality side" there's the HSC. The TSL doesn't feel like a premier event, it's more like a prestigious major tournament, because of its history. I don't want to see known players, I want to see the best players. And newcomers are always great for the game. Of course, it's a bit hard to root for a completely unknown korean player, but I'd recommend to concentrate on the games, which were actually quite entertaining so far. I'd also like to second rannasha's post. ^^This. I love the TSL because it's not the same people winning over and over again. In some way I'm glad that Naniwa and Thorzain got kicked out because now Thorzain and Naniwa fans from TSL3 have to find new people to root for, and that's what it's all about. Break out of old habits, and see who else is out there.When I saw the lineup of players, I knew like six of them. The rest I was completely clueless about until they were introduced by the casters. Also, TSL still brings a lot of unorthodox games to the table. On the rare occasions I watch GSL all I see is captain standard man bullshit. It's well-executed but insanely boring to watch. Here I think I've seen more cheese in four days of tournament than my last two months of ladder, units in matchups that don't usually feature those units (hullo muta wars) and epic comebacks that either win a game or at least prolong it for 15 more minutes of entertainment. This is fun. And I am enjoying it very very much. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On August 06 2012 17:35 Kleinmuuhg wrote: I came here looking for a good discussion, but I found a whine-fest of dissappointed fans and spoiled brats. They always say this kind of stuff when people say bad things about something they like. Seems to me like you're whining about arguments that are sometimes legitimate just because you can :/ | ||
monk
United States8476 Posts
On August 06 2012 16:11 Arachne wrote: Vortix is playing Babkyknight in a ZvP, which professional players have said that the MU is too singular (Stephano) and unwinnable if the zerg plays perfect (DRG), and lets not forget Naniwa's "I don't get this matchup" into Idra transition ("Gratz you play zerg"). This is really subjective and is bound to happen in every tournament. You may think Z>>>>>>>>P, but I'm willing to bet that more people think Z>>>>>>>>T. It just happens that Naniwa's worst MU is vs Zerg, which is a complete fluke. To the rest: I also want to say I am wrong with my seeding comments. I apologize, I do sometimes use the wrong words to express my thoughts especially while writing things down. I don't know why it happens, but its probably why i am still a student working on my dissertation after a few years. lol. :D What I meant to say, and I'll keep it short: The seeding, whatever method was chosen, was wrong. It did not accurately reflect the current strengths of the players and has resulted in high seeds with difficult games, upset potentials(the lower seeds) knocking themselves out, and generally as DJzaps put better than I ever could a lot less interest remaining in this tournament. I will update the main post with this again. This is an event that is being broadcast from replays, twice a week over a good number of weeks. Keeping interest in the event to retain sponsorships is >>>> anything else.. The numbers associated with these players is not, in my opinion, any real indication of how they will end up in the final results. Again, I addressed all these points in my previous post. I agree that the rankings made are not 100% indicative of how well players will do in this tournament. But I challenge you to make a ranking that isn't subjective. You just can't because of how the scene is divided. You keep saying that the seedings are wrong, but I've yet to hear a suggestion of how exactly you would do the seedings. So I'll reiterate. In your opinion, generating interest with good matches > everything else. In both my and TL's opinion, for a professional organization, professionalism, integrity, and fairness > everything else. Thus, you'll never have a rigged bracket based on subjective rankings as you're trying to suggest. | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
- We currently have a bad case of tournament over saturation in sc2, TSL does not feel " as " special, although It's still special. - No " legends " of starcraft 2 like MC, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Marineking, Dongraegu in the tournament. - Lots of outclassing in the ro32, but I have faith the matches will be a lot closer from the ro16 onwards. There's nothing TL can do to fix these issues, just have to hope the tournament gets more exciting as it progresses. I still have quite a few players left to cheer for, First, Coca, Squirtle, Keen. It's definitely not all bad. | ||
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monk
United States8476 Posts
On August 06 2012 13:12 Djzapz wrote: As much as I like TL and have enjoyed TSL in the past, I can't help to notice that a lot of people harshly criticize the OP like he's a heretic for daring to criticize the almighty TSL, even though he was pretty reasonable. I agree with much of it, and I'll try to explain why I personally am less interested in TSL4. Admittedly a lot has to do with the fact that I've been losing interest in SC2 lately. But who are all these people? I mean, I know most of the names and a couple of faces, and I've seen many of them play. In the Ro32, there were 3 players I personally cared about - now there aren't any. Of the 16 players that are left - I'm a fan of: 0 I kind of like: 2 I've never heard of : 5 I've heard but don't know much (if anything) about: 8 I have a decent idea of the personality and achievements of: 3 When I watch TSL, I'm getting replays of games that are sometimes "good", but they're replays, for one - of games that happen between players that mean nothing to me because I've never or barely heard of them. I don't have any stake in this, I just don't care about this tournament. From now, at least for me, the winner is going to be a number from 1 to 16. And now people just might tell me, well TSL can't do anything about that, and this is completely true. I'm not advocating that TSL fixes matches to make me happy, and I'm not even saying that this is "fixable". I'm merely saying that, this is what we have now as far as I'm concerned. For people like me who follow the SC2 scene quite a bit but somewhat casually, we've got a bunch of faceless players winning tournaments, smiling for the camera and leaving with thousands of dollars. Another notable thing is, Korean "superstars" come and go, never to be heard of again. I won't name anybody, but our American and European superstars keep much of their fans even though they slump or if they haven't showed ANY results since the switch from SCBW to SC2. So where are the real superstars? Are we ever going to have a SC2 Bonjwa or are we always going to shuffle with short-lived success stories about SC2Player#564678's lucrative 5-6 months tournament stomp followed by an endless slump. I'm not criticizing the OP because he's criticizing the TSL. Rather, I'm trying to poke flaws in his specific argument. I agree that the matches could potentially be better, but as even you mentioned, it might not be "fixable". This OP suggests a specific fix, and I'm trying to make him see why it's not viable. I'll all for criticizing TSL, but not when the criticism, at least in my opinion, isn't legitimate. I agree with everyone here that TSL4 is not as appealing as TSL3. It's quite obvious and all the other posts in this thread paint a better picture of why this is so better than the OP does. It's because of tournament saturation, the decline in the number of huge names, and it being an online tournament. Not because we didn't fix the brackets. | ||
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imre
France9263 Posts
On August 07 2012 01:20 Dodgin wrote: I'm also not as excited for TSL4 for these reasons: - We currently have a bad case of tournament over saturation in sc2, TSL does not feel " as " special, although It's still special. - No " legends " of starcraft 2 like MC, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Marineking, Dongraegu in the tournament. - Lots of outclassing in the ro32, but I have faith the matches will be a lot closer from the ro16 onwards. There's nothing TL can do to fix these issues, just have to hope the tournament gets more exciting as it progresses. I still have quite a few players left to cheer for, First, Coca, Squirtle, Keen. It's definitely not all bad. I really think the last point is important. Out of all the matches only a few were attractive (Ret/Squirtle, MajOr/Hyun) if you're looking for high level play from both players. Should be solved next round. | ||
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Jonoman92
United States9107 Posts
At this point, the only player in the ro16 left who I care about is HasuObs, and if any of the other foreigners can actually beat a korean (or for MajOr, another one) then maybe them as well. I feel a bit insensitive writing this, since TL simply did their best to be fair to global sc2 players to get a highly competitive field of players, but it's just the way I feel as a viewer. | ||
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Djzapz
Canada10681 Posts
On August 07 2012 01:28 NrGmonk wrote: I'm not criticizing the OP because he's criticizing the TSL. Rather, I'm trying to poke flaws in his specific argument. I agree that the matches could potentially be better, but as even you mentioned, it might not be "fixable". This OP suggests a specific fix, and I'm trying to make him see why it's not viable. I'll all for criticizing TSL, but not when the criticism, at least in my opinion, isn't legitimate. I agree with everyone here that TSL4 is not as appealing as TSL3. It's quite obvious and all the other posts in this thread paint a better picture of why this is so better than the OP does. It's because of tournament saturation, the decline in the number of huge names, and it being an online tournament. Not because we didn't fix the brackets. Fair enough. | ||
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Arachne
South Africa426 Posts
I think the biggest problem came in through the combination of the three processes. From what I understand there were three rules in effect, in order. Rule 1: Thorzain, Naniwa, kas are seeds 1,2,3. Rule 2: To win a qualifier results in a higher seed than to qualify through points Rule 3: TLPD is used to determine where everyone is ranked. Rule 1 superceded Rule 2 superceding Rule 3, if that makes sense. And that led to the current perceived problem i see existing and am upset about. So what could have been done differently? Well, there are a few situations I can see that could fix the perceived problem, hereafter referred to as the problem. 1. Use Rule 1 throughout. How well you have done in previous TSLs and TSL qualifiers gives you a points ranking system, where you are ranked, resulting in Thorzain, Naniwa, Kas, Hasu-obs, and then a scattering of the EU players until most likely you'd end up with the Koreans all at the bottom of the seedings, which isnt really desirable., So scrap that. 2. Use a combination of Rule 1 and rule 2. Players are seeded on how well they did in previous TSLs, and then in the calander order they qualified in the qualifiers, and then with the points players scattered across as they have earned points, I mean points are there for a reason right? This would end up with Daisy as the 4th seed, Nerchio 5th, and Curious 6th seed, in the order they won, until Keen, and then would start the players with the most points, starting with Select as the 18th seed, and ending with Squirtle as the 32nd seed. Hang on tho, is squirtle really the 32nd player? Lets look at points again. Well we are ranking over two different regions, so there are two ways of looking at it, and the other way would be to put hasuobs as the last seed as he was the last EU qualifier, where Coca Squirtle and Bischu all slot in around each other around the number 5 slot. Maybe we can look at averages instead, who scored the highest average over the qualifiers? Well, hasuobs qualifed with an average of 50, where Bischu qualifed with an average of 40. Is bischu a better player than hasu-obs? most people would say not. So lets go with that. The players who got the highest average points will be seeded in that order. Considering that the points needed for Koreans to qualify was lower, and they had less tourney's by half, lets figure out a points modifer for them. Something that isnt exactly "omg koreans OP", but still not punishing them too much for only being able to play in 5 qualifiers. So, we get our seeds 1 to 18 fairly easily. We also have a system to work out where the others slot in. Lets say the modifier for a quick example is 1.3x (guessed). So if the average points of an EU player is > than 1.3x the average points of the korean player, he slots in ahead. So, who would be 1st? (doing this without a calculator so forgive me, about to play a game). Babyknight has 54.4 points, lets say he is the highest. Ok, the Koreans then. Life has an average of 54 as well. BUT use our modifier, boom its 69. So life is the highest seed at 19. Who's next? etc etc who's last? Well, lets look. Squritle and Coca both would have 33 averages, times by 1.3 goes to 42. Lowest EU is Darkforce (Edit: And JohnnyReco. The modifier isnt 100% perfect, and I didnt calculate all values, it was the idea behind it that I was punting), at about 31. So lowest seed is Darkforce, Squirtle and Coca, well maybe they shoulda tried harder. Round one, Thorzain vs Darkforce, Squirtle vs naniwa, Coca vs Kas. Well, that seems a bit tough, but Kas isnt too bad, and coca is a bit rusty so maybe he isnt as beastly as he used to be. Squirtle did really well, and then kinda failed, and Naniwa, who is the number two seed, should be able to take him in PvP, as korean PvP he isnt too bad at. And if Naniwa loses, well at least he lost to a name. Coca was put ahead of squirtle alphabetically, since they both achieved the qualifying points at the same tourney. That is probably the most fair way to create the seeds. 3. The only fair way in which TLPD is used, in my opinioon, is if Rule 1 and Rule 2 is scrapped 100%, and TLPD alone is used. Rank players on how well they performed on the TLPD, or even on how well they are ranked on the system. That however, gives the problem of where exactly does the line of EU/KR cross. That isnt a definite line by any means, especially as players skill fluctuates, but I won't say its impossible to hypothesis where the EU TLPD enters into the KR TLPD, and be able to predict skill levels from that. Ironically enough, the second proposed system has the exact same MU's for the seeded players. BUT. and its a big one The korean players aren't seeded by any means in a rational manner. If a qualifier win is > a points qualification, why is life ahead of mana, welmu and elfi, but behind sase? whoh all directly qualified. He is also miles ahead of the seeding of BeastyQT. By the extent, you can see I would favour the second system using average points. I did this in 30 minutes at my PC. If the seeds of a tournament don't make sense, don't run with them, change them!. And in no universe is hasuobs the 32nd seed for this tournament with this spread of players Bischu AND welmu are both here, and ye, its PvP but I rate hasu against both of them..Also, the multiplier isnt set in stone either. It was guesswork. Maybe 1.4 is needed and not 1.3. Maybe more fractions. | ||
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TORTOISE
United States515 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
The problem with your other suggestions is that you're putting too much work into "fixing" the brackets. They're unnatural when you start talking about multiplying ELOs by a factor of 1.3 or 1.8. You have to look at the players as almost blank slates so you treat them equally and not as players you analyze and then manipulate. You can't theorize a system, check to see the brackets it would make, and then scrap it if you don't like the brackets. Again, we're back to the tournament retaining integrity thing. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
Fuck, you can go an entire MLG without an upset as exciting as that. Worth the ticket right there; to me at least. | ||
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