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I understand the concept of seeding, but i must admit after all the excitement of TSL 3 and the awesome artwork by glider, the fun stats, the breakout moments of relatively "unknown" foreigners beating koreans (Thorzain/Kas/Adelscott/Goody :D) I can't help but feel that the seeding, the hype and the screens of TSL 4 are depressing. There are no less than 5 Foreigner all kills of relatively good players, who have performed well recently, where the koreans are left with Taeja v Bischu, where
+ Show Spoiler + Taeja took it seriously enough to all in every game so far (3 games) with things that are never done professionally anymore. Day9 is talking as if its a meta shift, where i'm seeing it as a "can't be bothered" moment
Tho as I type this, Bischu has come back to 2/2. lol. GO BISCHU!
Watched the end T.T
Vortix, babyknight, Naniwa, JohnnyREcco, Nerchio Darkforce, Kas, Fraer, Hasuobs, Thorzain and Mana and Major all have good shots at making an upset, but are seeded that they are all playing against each other (except mana and Major), where as Lalush, Welmu, Eilfi (in PvP maybe), Select (sorry, slumping lately), and Sase (not vs Coca) don't. I can't help but feel all the excitement have been taken out of the tournament already. Vortix vs Babyknight. Two up n comers, killing each other. Naniwa v Recco... Upstart vs Bad attitude both crowd drawers. What will be left as an attraction after the 1st round?
There have been mutterings that replay events draw less viewers, and tbh if Nerchio drops out, which is likely (not 100% ofc) since Darkforce's ZvZ is really good, I might come back to watch Kas play, just as he is the only player who I feel has a chance at a major upset left after the 1st round.
And ye, there are more foreigners in the tourney than not, but I think considering seedings can be hidden a bit of manipulation to make a tournament that is running over weeks to be more exciting could have been allowed.
In TSL 3, there were major moments that live for ages. In TSL 4 it looks to be shaping up, after round 1, to just be the Korean Dominance Arena, with, whats worse, no major Korean names playing to actually draw the crowds besides Taeja, and him only as a side note of his team. (not that I wish him bad luck or nay disrespect. he is probably the best player in the world right now, but he doesnt have the MC, Nestea, MKP, MvP draw I feel)
Disclaimer: I mean no disrespect to the players, the organizers or the person who drew the load screens. It is my impression of the whole package, and no single thing. Also, this is my opinion. Apologies if anyone takes offence at this..
I understand that a Bo5 is seen as a true indicator of skill, but after the rigmarole of qualifying, to have matches go 3 0 in a predictable manner + Show Spoiler + here's looking at you last night's 2 hour later than usual broadcast
Edit: A good post about one of the two points I was trying to put across
On August 06 2012 13:12 Djzapz wrote:
As much as I like TL and have enjoyed TSL in the past, I can't help to notice that a lot of people harshly criticize the OP like he's a heretic for daring to criticize the almighty TSL, even though he was pretty reasonable. I agree with much of it, and I'll try to explain why I personally am less interested in TSL4.
Admittedly a lot has to do with the fact that I've been losing interest in SC2 lately. But who are all these people? I mean, I know most of the names and a couple of faces, and I've seen many of them play. In the Ro32, there were 3 players I personally cared about - now there aren't any.
Of the 16 players that are left -
I'm a fan of: 0
I kind of like: 2
I've never heard of : 5
I've heard but don't know much (if anything) about: 8
I have a decent idea of the personality and achievements of: 3
When I watch TSL, I'm getting replays of games that are sometimes "good", but they're replays, for one - of games that happen between players that mean nothing to me because I've never or barely heard of them. I don't have any stake in this, I just don't care about this tournament. From now, at least for me, the winner is going to be a number from 1 to 16.
And now people just might tell me, well TSL can't do anything about that, and this is completely true. I'm not advocating that TSL fixes matches to make me happy, and I'm not even saying that this is "fixable". I'm merely saying that, this is what we have now as far as I'm concerned. For people like me who follow the SC2 scene quite a bit but somewhat casually, we've got a bunch of faceless players winning tournaments, smiling for the camera and leaving with thousands of dollars.
Another notable thing is, Korean "superstars" come and go, never to be heard of again. I won't name anybody, but our American and European superstars keep much of their fans even though they slump or if they haven't showed ANY results since the switch from SCBW to SC2. So where are the real superstars? Are we ever going to have a SC2 Bonjwa or are we always going to shuffle with short-lived success stories about SC2Player#564678's lucrative 5-6 months tournament stomp followed by an endless slump.
Edit: Apology: I also want to say I am wrong with my seeding comments. I apologize, I do sometimes use the wrong words to express my thoughts especially while writing things down. I don't know why it happens, but its probably why i am still a student working on my dissertation after a few years. lol. :D
What I meant to say, and I'll keep it short: The seeding, whatever method was chosen, was wrong. It did not accurately reflect the current strengths of the players and has resulted in high seeds with difficult games, upset potentials(the lower seeds) knocking themselves out, and generally as DJzaps put better than I ever could a lot less interest remaining in this tournament. I will update the main post with this again.
This is an event that is being broadcast from replays, twice a week over a good number of weeks. Keeping interest in the event to retain sponsorships is >>>> anything else..
The numbers associated with these players is not, in my opinion, any real indication of how they will end up in the final results.
 
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Yeah, I think TL should instruct players that every match needs to end up in 3-2 score. 3-0's are not good for bussiness.
Jesus. Christ.
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Just an over saturation of tournaments I think. Some people are not watching every and all tournament like they used to, and are now only watching their favourite player's games.
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On August 06 2012 04:38 Odoakar wrote:
Yeah, I think TL should instruct players that every match needs to end up in 3-2 score. 3-0's are not good for bussiness.
Jesus. Christ.
That's not what I meant. Constructing brackets so that 3 0's don't happen so much is almost a necessity in a tournament of this format. Casted from replays with some of the best of the Foreigner scene vs some of the most unknown from the Korean scene, where the best foreigners are killing each other and the koreans, due to their scarcity ending up with easy games for the most part, isn't entertaining. There was almost no incentive for anyone to tune into Bischu vs Taeja, especially after what happened at GSTL and Assembly. Or even looking at the TLPD rankings on the side.
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Vortix, babyknight, Naniwa, JohnnyREcco, Nerchio Darkforce, Kas, Fraer, Hasuobs, Thorzain and Mana and Major all have good shots at making an upset, but are seeded so randomly that they are all playing against each other
What are you talking about? They're not randomly seeded at all, did you watch the bracket show or at least read how the brackets were made?
I think you're trying to find issues for your own personal detachment of interest than the actual lack of interest. I mean... this is just round of 32 and it feels entirely interesting to me. NaNiwa out, new names and foreigners coming forward, huge stakes in this annual tournament makes a very contextually-based interesting tournament. You still have ThorZaIN in as well as third-place from TSL3 to prove themselves again.
I can see how the interest has fizzled out a little when you nostalgically think back to TSL3, but to be real frank; I think you're just reminicing the past more than having an issue with the current.
I think the only thing I disagree with is there not being a double-elim. bracket. I also think that just because there aren't fan-favourite players doesn't necessarily mean the tournament is a bust, not as much entertainement value, etc. This is a true tournament in the sense that there were regional proving grounds, point seedings as well as qualifying by winning the regional qualifiers and it's an annual tournament looking to shape and prortray new faces without bias, invites or over-exposure of one group over another (everyone is casted).
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It's disappointing to see so few NA players in the TSL4. It has been happening for awhile and it's shocking how far we have fallen since the last TSL. I'll still watch but it can be a little demotivating seeing how little NA presence is around. Even the qualifiers on the NA server were dominated by the smaller number of Europeans.
I still watch but im less interested than the TSL3's ro32.
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@Torte de lini:
I actually read up on liquipedia, and noticed that its pretty much a direct qualifier vs a points qualifier in all cases. And the very 1st statement I said was "I understand the concept of seeding". But no i didn't watch the bracket show. That doesnt mean that I approve of it, nor that I am ignorant of seeding practices. The 4th place TSL 3 player is playing vs the 1st place TSL 3 player. I understand how it happened, but I can't help but feel that its punishing hasu for merely qualifying and not winning a qualifier, where both get you into the tournament.
I am more upset that the fan favourite players and the underdogs are all playing each other, rather than playing against well known boss players, with the exception of Naniwa Recco, and in all fairness I might be very wrong, but PvZ has been Naniwa's achille's heel quite famously, and i would be very surprized if the winner of Naniwa/Recco advances further vs the winner of Hyun/Major (to try keep the spoilers to a minimum).
And yes, Third Place from tsl 3 is of interest to me, and I stated as such. I think Kas has the best shot out of all the foreigners tbh. But I also thought Fraer had a good chance of spanners in the works. BeastyQT admittedly might throw some major upsets, but just as easily will fall to a lesser known korean.
Even a double elim bracket would add loads more interest. Especially if it would be a case of "and the winner of the loser's bracket is...." and hide it the whole time. It would make me follow the tourney more. And ye, I am a victim of rose coloured spectacles the same, if not more, than the next guy.
I also wouldnt really be surprised if Hasu beats Thorzain, and loses the very next round to the winner of Hack/Mana. In fact I wouldnt be surprized if Thorzain/Hasu lose to Mana/Hack anyways. Mouz Mana is one of the strongest players in EU atm, and his reward is to play vs Thorzain if he wins.
+ Show Spoiler + Taeja is seeded into the Ro8 without a sweat with his best MU in match 1 and match 2 guaranteed
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I think that when TSL 3 first happened it generated a lot of excitement because of its historical prestige. Since then sc2 has had so many uber-hyped tourneys that are developing their own legacies, that people don't really care as much anymore about TSL 4.
I think that the problem is that sc2 has too many tourneys with too many bo5-bo7 matches. It devalues the games. Osl in BW happened like once every 6 months, and all of the sets were bo3 up till the semifinals. For this reason each game was much more meaningful.
Also I think the no name kors owning foreigners makes it less interesting but what are you gonna do  .
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United States8476 Posts
I don't understand your complaint about seedings. Do you want more Korean vs Korean and foreigner vs foreigner matchups or more Korean vs foreigner matchups? Do you want more random seeding? Do you have a complaint about how the seeding is currently done? Or do you want rigged seedings/matches?
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TSL3 was the first SC2 tournament that featured both foreigners and Koreans (not counting the token foreigner that made it into GSL opens). Added to that, the Koreans were handpicked to garantuee that the big names were present.
TSL4 appears in a jungle of tournaments with Koreans meeting (and stomping) foreigners on some stage almost every weekend. Added to that, the Koreans had their own qualifier and quite a hard/long one, which means we see more lesser known Koreans as they had the time to focus primarily on the qualifiers.
So yeah, objectively speaking this TSL is less exciting than the previous one, mostly because the surrounding conditions have changed. But that shows how much Starcraft 2 has increased in popularity worldwide and not that the TSL has become worse.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 06 2012 05:36 Arachne wrote:
@Torte de lini:
I actually read up on liquipedia, and noticed that its pretty much a direct qualifier vs a points qualifier in all cases. And the very 1st statement I said was "I understand the concept of seeding". But no i didn't watch the bracket show. That doesnt mean that I approve of it, nor that I am ignorant of seeding practices. The 4th place TSL 3 player is playing vs the 1st place TSL 3 player. I understand how it happened, but I can't help but feel that its punishing hasu for merely qualifying and not winning a qualifier, where both get you into the tournament.
Yes, it is punishing hasu for merely qualifying and not winning a qualifier. That's the intent. It's much easier to qualify by points than to win a qualifier, as qualifier winners are not allowed to participate in future qualifiers.
I am more upset that the fan favourite players and the underdogs are all playing each other, rather than playing against well known boss players, with the exception of Naniwa Recco, and in all fairness I might be very wrong, but PvZ has been Naniwa's achille's heel quite famously, and i would be very surprized if the winner of Naniwa/Recco advances further vs the winner of Hyun/Major (to try keep the spoilers to a minimum).
This requires rigging of the brackets, which is completely unfair to players. Or are you suggesting there's a better way to seed than what TL did?
Even a double elim bracket would add loads more interest. Especially if it would be a case of "and the winner of the loser's bracket is...." and hide it the whole time. It would make me follow the tourney more. And ye, I am a victim of rose coloured spectacles the same, if not more, than the next guy.
Double elim is just less epic. I'm completely for double elim in all other leagues, but it just doesn't feel right for TSL. Also don't understand your second sentence.
I also wouldnt really be surprised if Hasu beats Thorzain, and loses the very next round to the winner of Hack/Mana. In fact I wouldnt be surprized if Thorzain/Hasu lose to Mana/Hack anyways. Mouz Mana is one of the strongest players in EU atm, and his reward is to play vs Thorzain if he wins.
Really don't understand this point either. It's a tournament. There are stronger and weaker players, and there's always bracket luck involved.
Taeja is seeded into the Ro8 without a sweat with his best MU in match 1 and match 2 guaranteed.
Statistically, TvZ is Taeja's best MU.
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For my part, I have to say that the way some players have approached their TSL games was extremely disappointing - especially those that often have a chance to compete for comparable prize money, but even some that don't.
There is really nobody and nothing else to blame except the players who have had like a month to prepare - and didn't. It was blatantly obvious that they didn't.
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On August 06 2012 05:36 Arachne wrote:@Torte de lini: I actually read up on liquipedia, and noticed that its pretty much a direct qualifier vs a points qualifier in all cases. And the very 1st statement I said was "I understand the concept of seeding". But no i didn't watch the bracket show. That doesnt mean that I approve of it, nor that I am ignorant of seeding practices. The 4th place TSL 3 player is playing vs the 1st place TSL 3 player. I understand how it happened, but I can't help but feel that its punishing hasu for merely qualifying and not winning a qualifier, where both get you into the tournament. I am more upset that the fan favourite players and the underdogs are all playing each other, rather than playing against well known boss players, with the exception of Naniwa Recco, and in all fairness I might be very wrong, but PvZ has been Naniwa's achille's heel quite famously, and i would be very surprized if the winner of Naniwa/Recco advances further vs the winner of Hyun/Major (to try keep the spoilers to a minimum). And yes, Third Place from tsl 3 is of interest to me, and I stated as such. I think Kas has the best shot out of all the foreigners tbh. But I also thought Fraer had a good chance of spanners in the works. BeastyQT admittedly might throw some major upsets, but just as easily will fall to a lesser known korean. Even a double elim bracket would add loads more interest. Especially if it would be a case of "and the winner of the loser's bracket is...." and hide it the whole time. It would make me follow the tourney more. And ye, I am a victim of rose coloured spectacles the same, if not more, than the next guy. I also wouldnt really be surprised if Hasu beats Thorzain, and loses the very next round to the winner of Hack/Mana. In fact I wouldnt be surprized if Thorzain/Hasu lose to Mana/Hack anyways. Mouz Mana is one of the strongest players in EU atm, and his reward is to play vs Thorzain if he wins. + Show Spoiler + Taeja is seeded into the Ro8 without a sweat with his best MU in match 1 and match 2 guaranteed .
It does make you in-part ignorant because you claim that it's random, when its more systematically put to balance and level the different forms of qualifications. It's obvious that if you're not first, second or third in TSL3, then you're like everyone else who qualified (hence why they have to do qualifiers) and you're putting too much emphasis on the past of TSL3 than the annual changes of a scene (and thus the importance of TSL4). This is what I mean by personal disinterest and nostalgia towards TSL3 than a general dislike for TSL4
I am more upset that the fan favourite players and the underdogs are all playing each other, rather than playing against well known boss players, with the exception of Naniwa Recco, and in all fairness I might be very wrong, but PvZ has been Naniwa's achille's heel quite famously, and i would be very surprized if the winner of Naniwa/Recco advances further vs the winner of Hyun/Major (to try keep the spoilers to a minimum).
It's the RO32, you'll get bosses vs. bosses. Everyone is equal in term that no one gets an easier bracket than someone else necessarily, but more equal to their points or forms of qualifying. Naturally, there is the bias of TSL3 top ranks getting place far separately from one another.
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For a tournament that prides itself on allowing us to get to know the players, I don't see Day 3's interview anywhere.
This is just the Ro32, I'm sure there will be more hype as the later rounds progress.
Honestly, the most hyped up I've ever been is the GSL WC. That was truly amazing
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I seem to have been taken out of context through the use of a bad adjective. I shall amend the original post. I am aware that it is NOT random in that there is a system behind it. I am upset with the system in that it is more of an arbitrary system as opposed to something like the GSL. We are aware that the people who get the picks in the Ro16 have the highest GSL points for the year. Whereas the person who came 4th in the TSL 3 and qualified again is seeded... last. There are no loyalty points. or anything.
So yeah, it isnt random. But it isnt based on what I (the best bit about blogs) view to be an accurate depiction of how these players should finish if they were arranged slightly differently. (Admittedly, this is a bit biased towards the latest tournament results from before Assembly).
Do I think Naniwa could beat First or Daisy in a PvP? 100% yes. Do i think Naniwa can beat JonnyRecco? Tbh, considering what I see to be the state of PvZ atm, and the fact that Naniwa just lost to Dimaga at dreamhack. No, I don't.
Do i think kas will beat fraer? Yes. Do I think Fraer deserves to go out in the Ro32? Not when I think that he can do a better job vs half the guys who are going out in the Ro32. Even vs Daisy and First again, I would imagine Fraer would have a better chance.
I don't agree with the way it was set up with the match ups that resulted from it. Do I think Slayers coca should be the number 24 seed? No ways. Admittedly, not higher than 15 considering he has been out of it for a while, but rewarding the number 9 seed with coca just seems cruel. Liquid'Ret gets Squirtle as his reward for being the 11th best Player in the seedings. That just seems as arbitrary from an outsiders perspective as Ret (iirc) in NASL ssn 1 gettting Puma, the best of the qualifiers.
And yes, I was suggesting rigging the seedings for more interesting games. I stated it less explicitly than this in the original post, but still pretty straight forward as far as I can see. It is not 100% necessary to be 100% transparent in how things are created. If there was no bracket release show, and the bracket just appeared. as long as no one came out and said "we decided to milk the bracket to make the matches as awesome as possible with a combination of big names vs lesser known players to get the upset factor" would anyone really know? As long as it isn't "well, we did a coin-flip tournament and the winner met Bischu in the final again", would anyone really mind?
The best players should rise to the top anyway, based on performance and current strength. A Mana vs Thorzain matchup in the Ro16 is immediately taking away two of the strongest foreigners, if not players, in the tournament at once. Naniwa vs Johnny Recco in the Ro32 takes away the Great White Toss vs an amazing upstart zerg.
Daisy vs First has a lot less hype to it. I know who both of them are, and am slightly aware of how succesful each one is. Obviously they qualified so on the day they were at the top of their game. But Daisy is still just the ESC Korean to me who is good at online cups, and First is still just that BW player with IM to me (if i'm wrong, this is still my impressioon of him -_-). As a spectator I would rather watch Daisy vs First in the Ro16 after there was an upset to push them through, than as a Ro32. I would love to watch Recco vs Naniwa in the Ro8 and say "wow they did well to get this far".
I realize that this is fanboyism, but after wathcing assembly where the Korean's took over, its just a bit much to see a tournament set up to do exactly that again. In the cases where the foreigner players exist to prevent this, they are all playing each other early on. Which I find extremely disappointing.
Also, whoops at my Taeja comment, I mis-remembered an assembly comment then :D. My bad.
@my double elim comment: I understand there would be very little chance to actually broadcast the double elim in the TSL format as its existed so far. So I was suggesting maybe having it as a secret bracket that wasn't advertised. and then when it comes time for the winner bracket finals, the loser plays the winner of the lower bracket who is announced then and there for a place in the final and then we have extended seri... No. No extended series :D.
Also, on a side note since it seems to be somewhat overlooked. The broadcast yesterday starting two hours later than tthe normal 8pm my time, after the 1st match, i kinda looked at the bracket went "no upsets here" and went to bed early for the 1st time of the 3 broadcasts.
+ Show Spoiler + Taeja seemed to have taken the 1st match so seriously that he literally did not play his standard game until the end, and then crushed his opponent. The main seeds of 1/2/3 should have that as well, where just Kas has had it so far, and I doubt Thorzain will share them in this.
P.S I have read this thru a few times. I hope that it makes sense as I wrote it, since there was some editing happening as I re-read it thru
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On August 06 2012 06:20 Entirety wrote:
Honestly, the most hyped up I've ever been is the GSL WC. That was truly amazing
Yes. Still best ling bling micro i've ever seen in the July Dimaga match. DRG stephano at the Blizz cup wasnt even close.
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United States8476 Posts
Do i think Naniwa can beat JonnyRecco? Tbh, considering what I see to be the state of PvZ atm, and the fact that Naniwa just lost to Dimaga at dreamhack. No, I don't.
Completely hindsight imo. Naniwa was heavily favored over JonnyRecco even with his deficiencies in PvZ before that match aired.
So yeah, it isnt random. But it isnt based on what I (the best bit about blogs) view to be an accurate depiction of how these players should finish if they were arranged slightly differently. (Admittedly, this is a bit biased towards the latest tournament results from before Assembly).
I agree. It's not the best depiction of how the players will eventually finish. However, it's an example of an accountable, fair, and structured way of seeding. GSL has a points system to rank players with, but the problem with using that in the TSL is that some foreigners never participate in the Korean scene(Hasuobs) while some Koreans almost never participate in the foreigner scene(Sting, First) . You can't just rank all the Koreans above foreigners, due to obvious public outcry. You can't do a subjective rank, because there's bound to be accusations of bias. I believe the way it was done, based on a combination of whether the player qualified by points or winning a tournament and TLPD ELO, is one of the most fair ways to do it. Also, the only other SC2 tournament with qualifiers from different regions, MLG Arena, also used to seed people in a similar fashion.
And yes, I was suggesting rigging the seedings for more interesting games. I stated it less explicitly than this in the original post, but still pretty straight forward as far as I can see. It is not 100% necessary to be 100% transparent in how things are created. If there was no bracket release show, and the bracket just appeared. as long as no one came out and said "we decided to milk the bracket to make the matches as awesome as possible with a combination of big names vs lesser known players to get the upset factor" would anyone really know? As long as it isn't "well, we did a coin-flip tournament and the winner met Bischu in the final again", would anyone really mind?
This is highly unprofessional, telling the audience you're randomizing the brackets when you've actually rigged them. Milking the brackets for better games harms the integrity of the tournament and really is not an option.
@my double elim comment: I understand there would be very little chance to actually broadcast the double elim in the TSL format as its existed so far. So I was suggesting maybe having it as a secret bracket that wasn't advertised. and then when it comes time for the winner bracket finals, the loser plays the winner of the lower bracket who is announced then and there for a place in the final and then we have extended seri... No. No extended series :D.
Again, hiding losers bracket results/games is incredibly shady and would never be considered seriously in a professional tournament.
From what I've seen from your posts, I think the issue comes down to this: You want good matches and are willing to sacrifice fairness, integrity, and professionalism to get them. TL, however, is not.
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Woah woah...
1. TaeJa didn't cheese because he was taking Bischu extremely seriously. In fact, it's good to mix up cheese every now and then and TaeJa is so much better for it.
2. During TSL3, do you think anyone gave a damn about Thorzain? No one knew about him and no one cared about him until he started ripping people apart.
Just because you think Daisy and First aren't anything special... Well guess what, Thorzain wasn't anything special. And then he became something special. What if First wins the entire thing, taking out great players and he turns out to be an awesome personality? TSL is great for exposing people, and that's why I fully supported the qualifiers: it gave everyone an even playing field.
Sure, you might wanna see Naniwa vs. TaeJa in the Ro4 and it would attract viewers, but TSL isn't about rigging matchups. That's ridiculous.
It's all right to be a fanboy, but you have to appreciate the fact that every person in TSL is a good player and if you don't know them already, TSL is a perfect opportunity to get to know them.
You're missing the point. TSL is about rooting for your favorite players and rooting for players which you never thought you would root for.
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I disagree. The game that just ended showed me that even though it was a 3-0, it had me on the very edge of my seat for almost almost two hours of gameplay. ThorZain narrowly lost all three rounds and maybe a few seconds here or there would have given him a victory.
That said, all my favorite players are out, so I have to find new ones to root for. I'm rooting for Major because of the odds he went through and the victories he pulled, and all the surviving Protosses because there is no way in hell a Zerg is winning this tournament.
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Tournament oversaturation. Back when TSL was around, there just seemed to be fewer tournaments, so TSL was extra "special". Now it is just another tournament without a lot of the big name players that draw in viewers.
Nowadays it is almost impossible to keep track of all the tournaments going on, especially since TSL isn't offline nor live. But we are still in the early stages of the tournament. These online tournaments usually build hype as it nears the finals.
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EPT
