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I understand the concept of seeding, but i must admit after all the excitement of TSL 3 and the awesome artwork by glider, the fun stats, the breakout moments of relatively "unknown" foreigners beating koreans (Thorzain/Kas/Adelscott/Goody :D) I can't help but feel that the seeding, the hype and the screens of TSL 4 are depressing. There are no less than 5 Foreigner all kills of relatively good players, who have performed well recently, where the koreans are left with Taeja v Bischu, where
+ Show Spoiler + Taeja took it seriously enough to all in every game so far (3 games) with things that are never done professionally anymore. Day9 is talking as if its a meta shift, where i'm seeing it as a "can't be bothered" moment
Tho as I type this, Bischu has come back to 2/2. lol. GO BISCHU!
Watched the end T.T
Vortix, babyknight, Naniwa, JohnnyREcco, Nerchio Darkforce, Kas, Fraer, Hasuobs, Thorzain and Mana and Major all have good shots at making an upset, but are seeded that they are all playing against each other (except mana and Major), where as Lalush, Welmu, Eilfi (in PvP maybe), Select (sorry, slumping lately), and Sase (not vs Coca) don't. I can't help but feel all the excitement have been taken out of the tournament already. Vortix vs Babyknight. Two up n comers, killing each other. Naniwa v Recco... Upstart vs Bad attitude both crowd drawers. What will be left as an attraction after the 1st round?
There have been mutterings that replay events draw less viewers, and tbh if Nerchio drops out, which is likely (not 100% ofc) since Darkforce's ZvZ is really good, I might come back to watch Kas play, just as he is the only player who I feel has a chance at a major upset left after the 1st round.
And ye, there are more foreigners in the tourney than not, but I think considering seedings can be hidden a bit of manipulation to make a tournament that is running over weeks to be more exciting could have been allowed.
In TSL 3, there were major moments that live for ages. In TSL 4 it looks to be shaping up, after round 1, to just be the Korean Dominance Arena, with, whats worse, no major Korean names playing to actually draw the crowds besides Taeja, and him only as a side note of his team. (not that I wish him bad luck or nay disrespect. he is probably the best player in the world right now, but he doesnt have the MC, Nestea, MKP, MvP draw I feel)
Disclaimer: I mean no disrespect to the players, the organizers or the person who drew the load screens. It is my impression of the whole package, and no single thing. Also, this is my opinion. Apologies if anyone takes offence at this..
I understand that a Bo5 is seen as a true indicator of skill, but after the rigmarole of qualifying, to have matches go 3 0 in a predictable manner + Show Spoiler + here's looking at you last night's 2 hour later than usual broadcast
Edit: A good post about one of the two points I was trying to put across
On August 06 2012 13:12 Djzapz wrote:
As much as I like TL and have enjoyed TSL in the past, I can't help to notice that a lot of people harshly criticize the OP like he's a heretic for daring to criticize the almighty TSL, even though he was pretty reasonable. I agree with much of it, and I'll try to explain why I personally am less interested in TSL4.
Admittedly a lot has to do with the fact that I've been losing interest in SC2 lately. But who are all these people? I mean, I know most of the names and a couple of faces, and I've seen many of them play. In the Ro32, there were 3 players I personally cared about - now there aren't any.
Of the 16 players that are left -
I'm a fan of: 0
I kind of like: 2
I've never heard of : 5
I've heard but don't know much (if anything) about: 8
I have a decent idea of the personality and achievements of: 3
When I watch TSL, I'm getting replays of games that are sometimes "good", but they're replays, for one - of games that happen between players that mean nothing to me because I've never or barely heard of them. I don't have any stake in this, I just don't care about this tournament. From now, at least for me, the winner is going to be a number from 1 to 16.
And now people just might tell me, well TSL can't do anything about that, and this is completely true. I'm not advocating that TSL fixes matches to make me happy, and I'm not even saying that this is "fixable". I'm merely saying that, this is what we have now as far as I'm concerned. For people like me who follow the SC2 scene quite a bit but somewhat casually, we've got a bunch of faceless players winning tournaments, smiling for the camera and leaving with thousands of dollars.
Another notable thing is, Korean "superstars" come and go, never to be heard of again. I won't name anybody, but our American and European superstars keep much of their fans even though they slump or if they haven't showed ANY results since the switch from SCBW to SC2. So where are the real superstars? Are we ever going to have a SC2 Bonjwa or are we always going to shuffle with short-lived success stories about SC2Player#564678's lucrative 5-6 months tournament stomp followed by an endless slump.
Edit: Apology: I also want to say I am wrong with my seeding comments. I apologize, I do sometimes use the wrong words to express my thoughts especially while writing things down. I don't know why it happens, but its probably why i am still a student working on my dissertation after a few years. lol. :D
What I meant to say, and I'll keep it short: The seeding, whatever method was chosen, was wrong. It did not accurately reflect the current strengths of the players and has resulted in high seeds with difficult games, upset potentials(the lower seeds) knocking themselves out, and generally as DJzaps put better than I ever could a lot less interest remaining in this tournament. I will update the main post with this again.
This is an event that is being broadcast from replays, twice a week over a good number of weeks. Keeping interest in the event to retain sponsorships is >>>> anything else..
The numbers associated with these players is not, in my opinion, any real indication of how they will end up in the final results.
 
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Yeah, I think TL should instruct players that every match needs to end up in 3-2 score. 3-0's are not good for bussiness.
Jesus. Christ.
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Just an over saturation of tournaments I think. Some people are not watching every and all tournament like they used to, and are now only watching their favourite player's games.
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On August 06 2012 04:38 Odoakar wrote:
Yeah, I think TL should instruct players that every match needs to end up in 3-2 score. 3-0's are not good for bussiness.
Jesus. Christ.
That's not what I meant. Constructing brackets so that 3 0's don't happen so much is almost a necessity in a tournament of this format. Casted from replays with some of the best of the Foreigner scene vs some of the most unknown from the Korean scene, where the best foreigners are killing each other and the koreans, due to their scarcity ending up with easy games for the most part, isn't entertaining. There was almost no incentive for anyone to tune into Bischu vs Taeja, especially after what happened at GSTL and Assembly. Or even looking at the TLPD rankings on the side.
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Vortix, babyknight, Naniwa, JohnnyREcco, Nerchio Darkforce, Kas, Fraer, Hasuobs, Thorzain and Mana and Major all have good shots at making an upset, but are seeded so randomly that they are all playing against each other
What are you talking about? They're not randomly seeded at all, did you watch the bracket show or at least read how the brackets were made?
I think you're trying to find issues for your own personal detachment of interest than the actual lack of interest. I mean... this is just round of 32 and it feels entirely interesting to me. NaNiwa out, new names and foreigners coming forward, huge stakes in this annual tournament makes a very contextually-based interesting tournament. You still have ThorZaIN in as well as third-place from TSL3 to prove themselves again.
I can see how the interest has fizzled out a little when you nostalgically think back to TSL3, but to be real frank; I think you're just reminicing the past more than having an issue with the current.
I think the only thing I disagree with is there not being a double-elim. bracket. I also think that just because there aren't fan-favourite players doesn't necessarily mean the tournament is a bust, not as much entertainement value, etc. This is a true tournament in the sense that there were regional proving grounds, point seedings as well as qualifying by winning the regional qualifiers and it's an annual tournament looking to shape and prortray new faces without bias, invites or over-exposure of one group over another (everyone is casted).
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It's disappointing to see so few NA players in the TSL4. It has been happening for awhile and it's shocking how far we have fallen since the last TSL. I'll still watch but it can be a little demotivating seeing how little NA presence is around. Even the qualifiers on the NA server were dominated by the smaller number of Europeans.
I still watch but im less interested than the TSL3's ro32.
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@Torte de lini:
I actually read up on liquipedia, and noticed that its pretty much a direct qualifier vs a points qualifier in all cases. And the very 1st statement I said was "I understand the concept of seeding". But no i didn't watch the bracket show. That doesnt mean that I approve of it, nor that I am ignorant of seeding practices. The 4th place TSL 3 player is playing vs the 1st place TSL 3 player. I understand how it happened, but I can't help but feel that its punishing hasu for merely qualifying and not winning a qualifier, where both get you into the tournament.
I am more upset that the fan favourite players and the underdogs are all playing each other, rather than playing against well known boss players, with the exception of Naniwa Recco, and in all fairness I might be very wrong, but PvZ has been Naniwa's achille's heel quite famously, and i would be very surprized if the winner of Naniwa/Recco advances further vs the winner of Hyun/Major (to try keep the spoilers to a minimum).
And yes, Third Place from tsl 3 is of interest to me, and I stated as such. I think Kas has the best shot out of all the foreigners tbh. But I also thought Fraer had a good chance of spanners in the works. BeastyQT admittedly might throw some major upsets, but just as easily will fall to a lesser known korean.
Even a double elim bracket would add loads more interest. Especially if it would be a case of "and the winner of the loser's bracket is...." and hide it the whole time. It would make me follow the tourney more. And ye, I am a victim of rose coloured spectacles the same, if not more, than the next guy.
I also wouldnt really be surprised if Hasu beats Thorzain, and loses the very next round to the winner of Hack/Mana. In fact I wouldnt be surprized if Thorzain/Hasu lose to Mana/Hack anyways. Mouz Mana is one of the strongest players in EU atm, and his reward is to play vs Thorzain if he wins.
+ Show Spoiler + Taeja is seeded into the Ro8 without a sweat with his best MU in match 1 and match 2 guaranteed
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I think that when TSL 3 first happened it generated a lot of excitement because of its historical prestige. Since then sc2 has had so many uber-hyped tourneys that are developing their own legacies, that people don't really care as much anymore about TSL 4.
I think that the problem is that sc2 has too many tourneys with too many bo5-bo7 matches. It devalues the games. Osl in BW happened like once every 6 months, and all of the sets were bo3 up till the semifinals. For this reason each game was much more meaningful.
Also I think the no name kors owning foreigners makes it less interesting but what are you gonna do  .
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United States8476 Posts
I don't understand your complaint about seedings. Do you want more Korean vs Korean and foreigner vs foreigner matchups or more Korean vs foreigner matchups? Do you want more random seeding? Do you have a complaint about how the seeding is currently done? Or do you want rigged seedings/matches?
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TSL3 was the first SC2 tournament that featured both foreigners and Koreans (not counting the token foreigner that made it into GSL opens). Added to that, the Koreans were handpicked to garantuee that the big names were present.
TSL4 appears in a jungle of tournaments with Koreans meeting (and stomping) foreigners on some stage almost every weekend. Added to that, the Koreans had their own qualifier and quite a hard/long one, which means we see more lesser known Koreans as they had the time to focus primarily on the qualifiers.
So yeah, objectively speaking this TSL is less exciting than the previous one, mostly because the surrounding conditions have changed. But that shows how much Starcraft 2 has increased in popularity worldwide and not that the TSL has become worse.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 06 2012 05:36 Arachne wrote:
@Torte de lini:
I actually read up on liquipedia, and noticed that its pretty much a direct qualifier vs a points qualifier in all cases. And the very 1st statement I said was "I understand the concept of seeding". But no i didn't watch the bracket show. That doesnt mean that I approve of it, nor that I am ignorant of seeding practices. The 4th place TSL 3 player is playing vs the 1st place TSL 3 player. I understand how it happened, but I can't help but feel that its punishing hasu for merely qualifying and not winning a qualifier, where both get you into the tournament.
Yes, it is punishing hasu for merely qualifying and not winning a qualifier. That's the intent. It's much easier to qualify by points than to win a qualifier, as qualifier winners are not allowed to participate in future qualifiers.
I am more upset that the fan favourite players and the underdogs are all playing each other, rather than playing against well known boss players, with the exception of Naniwa Recco, and in all fairness I might be very wrong, but PvZ has been Naniwa's achille's heel quite famously, and i would be very surprized if the winner of Naniwa/Recco advances further vs the winner of Hyun/Major (to try keep the spoilers to a minimum).
This requires rigging of the brackets, which is completely unfair to players. Or are you suggesting there's a better way to seed than what TL did?
Even a double elim bracket would add loads more interest. Especially if it would be a case of "and the winner of the loser's bracket is...." and hide it the whole time. It would make me follow the tourney more. And ye, I am a victim of rose coloured spectacles the same, if not more, than the next guy.
Double elim is just less epic. I'm completely for double elim in all other leagues, but it just doesn't feel right for TSL. Also don't understand your second sentence.
I also wouldnt really be surprised if Hasu beats Thorzain, and loses the very next round to the winner of Hack/Mana. In fact I wouldnt be surprized if Thorzain/Hasu lose to Mana/Hack anyways. Mouz Mana is one of the strongest players in EU atm, and his reward is to play vs Thorzain if he wins.
Really don't understand this point either. It's a tournament. There are stronger and weaker players, and there's always bracket luck involved.
Taeja is seeded into the Ro8 without a sweat with his best MU in match 1 and match 2 guaranteed.
Statistically, TvZ is Taeja's best MU.
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For my part, I have to say that the way some players have approached their TSL games was extremely disappointing - especially those that often have a chance to compete for comparable prize money, but even some that don't.
There is really nobody and nothing else to blame except the players who have had like a month to prepare - and didn't. It was blatantly obvious that they didn't.
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On August 06 2012 05:36 Arachne wrote:@Torte de lini: I actually read up on liquipedia, and noticed that its pretty much a direct qualifier vs a points qualifier in all cases. And the very 1st statement I said was "I understand the concept of seeding". But no i didn't watch the bracket show. That doesnt mean that I approve of it, nor that I am ignorant of seeding practices. The 4th place TSL 3 player is playing vs the 1st place TSL 3 player. I understand how it happened, but I can't help but feel that its punishing hasu for merely qualifying and not winning a qualifier, where both get you into the tournament. I am more upset that the fan favourite players and the underdogs are all playing each other, rather than playing against well known boss players, with the exception of Naniwa Recco, and in all fairness I might be very wrong, but PvZ has been Naniwa's achille's heel quite famously, and i would be very surprized if the winner of Naniwa/Recco advances further vs the winner of Hyun/Major (to try keep the spoilers to a minimum). And yes, Third Place from tsl 3 is of interest to me, and I stated as such. I think Kas has the best shot out of all the foreigners tbh. But I also thought Fraer had a good chance of spanners in the works. BeastyQT admittedly might throw some major upsets, but just as easily will fall to a lesser known korean. Even a double elim bracket would add loads more interest. Especially if it would be a case of "and the winner of the loser's bracket is...." and hide it the whole time. It would make me follow the tourney more. And ye, I am a victim of rose coloured spectacles the same, if not more, than the next guy. I also wouldnt really be surprised if Hasu beats Thorzain, and loses the very next round to the winner of Hack/Mana. In fact I wouldnt be surprized if Thorzain/Hasu lose to Mana/Hack anyways. Mouz Mana is one of the strongest players in EU atm, and his reward is to play vs Thorzain if he wins. + Show Spoiler + Taeja is seeded into the Ro8 without a sweat with his best MU in match 1 and match 2 guaranteed .
It does make you in-part ignorant because you claim that it's random, when its more systematically put to balance and level the different forms of qualifications. It's obvious that if you're not first, second or third in TSL3, then you're like everyone else who qualified (hence why they have to do qualifiers) and you're putting too much emphasis on the past of TSL3 than the annual changes of a scene (and thus the importance of TSL4). This is what I mean by personal disinterest and nostalgia towards TSL3 than a general dislike for TSL4
I am more upset that the fan favourite players and the underdogs are all playing each other, rather than playing against well known boss players, with the exception of Naniwa Recco, and in all fairness I might be very wrong, but PvZ has been Naniwa's achille's heel quite famously, and i would be very surprized if the winner of Naniwa/Recco advances further vs the winner of Hyun/Major (to try keep the spoilers to a minimum).
It's the RO32, you'll get bosses vs. bosses. Everyone is equal in term that no one gets an easier bracket than someone else necessarily, but more equal to their points or forms of qualifying. Naturally, there is the bias of TSL3 top ranks getting place far separately from one another.
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For a tournament that prides itself on allowing us to get to know the players, I don't see Day 3's interview anywhere.
This is just the Ro32, I'm sure there will be more hype as the later rounds progress.
Honestly, the most hyped up I've ever been is the GSL WC. That was truly amazing
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I seem to have been taken out of context through the use of a bad adjective. I shall amend the original post. I am aware that it is NOT random in that there is a system behind it. I am upset with the system in that it is more of an arbitrary system as opposed to something like the GSL. We are aware that the people who get the picks in the Ro16 have the highest GSL points for the year. Whereas the person who came 4th in the TSL 3 and qualified again is seeded... last. There are no loyalty points. or anything.
So yeah, it isnt random. But it isnt based on what I (the best bit about blogs) view to be an accurate depiction of how these players should finish if they were arranged slightly differently. (Admittedly, this is a bit biased towards the latest tournament results from before Assembly).
Do I think Naniwa could beat First or Daisy in a PvP? 100% yes. Do i think Naniwa can beat JonnyRecco? Tbh, considering what I see to be the state of PvZ atm, and the fact that Naniwa just lost to Dimaga at dreamhack. No, I don't.
Do i think kas will beat fraer? Yes. Do I think Fraer deserves to go out in the Ro32? Not when I think that he can do a better job vs half the guys who are going out in the Ro32. Even vs Daisy and First again, I would imagine Fraer would have a better chance.
I don't agree with the way it was set up with the match ups that resulted from it. Do I think Slayers coca should be the number 24 seed? No ways. Admittedly, not higher than 15 considering he has been out of it for a while, but rewarding the number 9 seed with coca just seems cruel. Liquid'Ret gets Squirtle as his reward for being the 11th best Player in the seedings. That just seems as arbitrary from an outsiders perspective as Ret (iirc) in NASL ssn 1 gettting Puma, the best of the qualifiers.
And yes, I was suggesting rigging the seedings for more interesting games. I stated it less explicitly than this in the original post, but still pretty straight forward as far as I can see. It is not 100% necessary to be 100% transparent in how things are created. If there was no bracket release show, and the bracket just appeared. as long as no one came out and said "we decided to milk the bracket to make the matches as awesome as possible with a combination of big names vs lesser known players to get the upset factor" would anyone really know? As long as it isn't "well, we did a coin-flip tournament and the winner met Bischu in the final again", would anyone really mind?
The best players should rise to the top anyway, based on performance and current strength. A Mana vs Thorzain matchup in the Ro16 is immediately taking away two of the strongest foreigners, if not players, in the tournament at once. Naniwa vs Johnny Recco in the Ro32 takes away the Great White Toss vs an amazing upstart zerg.
Daisy vs First has a lot less hype to it. I know who both of them are, and am slightly aware of how succesful each one is. Obviously they qualified so on the day they were at the top of their game. But Daisy is still just the ESC Korean to me who is good at online cups, and First is still just that BW player with IM to me (if i'm wrong, this is still my impressioon of him -_-). As a spectator I would rather watch Daisy vs First in the Ro16 after there was an upset to push them through, than as a Ro32. I would love to watch Recco vs Naniwa in the Ro8 and say "wow they did well to get this far".
I realize that this is fanboyism, but after wathcing assembly where the Korean's took over, its just a bit much to see a tournament set up to do exactly that again. In the cases where the foreigner players exist to prevent this, they are all playing each other early on. Which I find extremely disappointing.
Also, whoops at my Taeja comment, I mis-remembered an assembly comment then :D. My bad.
@my double elim comment: I understand there would be very little chance to actually broadcast the double elim in the TSL format as its existed so far. So I was suggesting maybe having it as a secret bracket that wasn't advertised. and then when it comes time for the winner bracket finals, the loser plays the winner of the lower bracket who is announced then and there for a place in the final and then we have extended seri... No. No extended series :D.
Also, on a side note since it seems to be somewhat overlooked. The broadcast yesterday starting two hours later than tthe normal 8pm my time, after the 1st match, i kinda looked at the bracket went "no upsets here" and went to bed early for the 1st time of the 3 broadcasts.
+ Show Spoiler + Taeja seemed to have taken the 1st match so seriously that he literally did not play his standard game until the end, and then crushed his opponent. The main seeds of 1/2/3 should have that as well, where just Kas has had it so far, and I doubt Thorzain will share them in this.
P.S I have read this thru a few times. I hope that it makes sense as I wrote it, since there was some editing happening as I re-read it thru
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On August 06 2012 06:20 Entirety wrote:
Honestly, the most hyped up I've ever been is the GSL WC. That was truly amazing
Yes. Still best ling bling micro i've ever seen in the July Dimaga match. DRG stephano at the Blizz cup wasnt even close.
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United States8476 Posts
Do i think Naniwa can beat JonnyRecco? Tbh, considering what I see to be the state of PvZ atm, and the fact that Naniwa just lost to Dimaga at dreamhack. No, I don't.
Completely hindsight imo. Naniwa was heavily favored over JonnyRecco even with his deficiencies in PvZ before that match aired.
So yeah, it isnt random. But it isnt based on what I (the best bit about blogs) view to be an accurate depiction of how these players should finish if they were arranged slightly differently. (Admittedly, this is a bit biased towards the latest tournament results from before Assembly).
I agree. It's not the best depiction of how the players will eventually finish. However, it's an example of an accountable, fair, and structured way of seeding. GSL has a points system to rank players with, but the problem with using that in the TSL is that some foreigners never participate in the Korean scene(Hasuobs) while some Koreans almost never participate in the foreigner scene(Sting, First) . You can't just rank all the Koreans above foreigners, due to obvious public outcry. You can't do a subjective rank, because there's bound to be accusations of bias. I believe the way it was done, based on a combination of whether the player qualified by points or winning a tournament and TLPD ELO, is one of the most fair ways to do it. Also, the only other SC2 tournament with qualifiers from different regions, MLG Arena, also used to seed people in a similar fashion.
And yes, I was suggesting rigging the seedings for more interesting games. I stated it less explicitly than this in the original post, but still pretty straight forward as far as I can see. It is not 100% necessary to be 100% transparent in how things are created. If there was no bracket release show, and the bracket just appeared. as long as no one came out and said "we decided to milk the bracket to make the matches as awesome as possible with a combination of big names vs lesser known players to get the upset factor" would anyone really know? As long as it isn't "well, we did a coin-flip tournament and the winner met Bischu in the final again", would anyone really mind?
This is highly unprofessional, telling the audience you're randomizing the brackets when you've actually rigged them. Milking the brackets for better games harms the integrity of the tournament and really is not an option.
@my double elim comment: I understand there would be very little chance to actually broadcast the double elim in the TSL format as its existed so far. So I was suggesting maybe having it as a secret bracket that wasn't advertised. and then when it comes time for the winner bracket finals, the loser plays the winner of the lower bracket who is announced then and there for a place in the final and then we have extended seri... No. No extended series :D.
Again, hiding losers bracket results/games is incredibly shady and would never be considered seriously in a professional tournament.
From what I've seen from your posts, I think the issue comes down to this: You want good matches and are willing to sacrifice fairness, integrity, and professionalism to get them. TL, however, is not.
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Woah woah...
1. TaeJa didn't cheese because he was taking Bischu extremely seriously. In fact, it's good to mix up cheese every now and then and TaeJa is so much better for it.
2. During TSL3, do you think anyone gave a damn about Thorzain? No one knew about him and no one cared about him until he started ripping people apart.
Just because you think Daisy and First aren't anything special... Well guess what, Thorzain wasn't anything special. And then he became something special. What if First wins the entire thing, taking out great players and he turns out to be an awesome personality? TSL is great for exposing people, and that's why I fully supported the qualifiers: it gave everyone an even playing field.
Sure, you might wanna see Naniwa vs. TaeJa in the Ro4 and it would attract viewers, but TSL isn't about rigging matchups. That's ridiculous.
It's all right to be a fanboy, but you have to appreciate the fact that every person in TSL is a good player and if you don't know them already, TSL is a perfect opportunity to get to know them.
You're missing the point. TSL is about rooting for your favorite players and rooting for players which you never thought you would root for.
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I disagree. The game that just ended showed me that even though it was a 3-0, it had me on the very edge of my seat for almost almost two hours of gameplay. ThorZain narrowly lost all three rounds and maybe a few seconds here or there would have given him a victory.
That said, all my favorite players are out, so I have to find new ones to root for. I'm rooting for Major because of the odds he went through and the victories he pulled, and all the surviving Protosses because there is no way in hell a Zerg is winning this tournament.
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Tournament oversaturation. Back when TSL was around, there just seemed to be fewer tournaments, so TSL was extra "special". Now it is just another tournament without a lot of the big name players that draw in viewers.
Nowadays it is almost impossible to keep track of all the tournaments going on, especially since TSL isn't offline nor live. But we are still in the early stages of the tournament. These online tournaments usually build hype as it nears the finals.
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Casted from replays, i can't keep watching that it kills me seriously its so boring
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I really think all the negative response to this blog just proves how little we should take from it. Seriously, obviously from how much GMarshall and TDL have questioned his writing and how little the OP seems to understand how hindsight works, there isn't much here. There was no Spoon Terran before TSL3, and TSL3 wasn't absolutely amazing other than the fact that it brought Koreans and Foreigners together (which is awesome) but it suffered from all the other things you say that TSL4 suffers from. The scene is much more established now, so its not like we are going to find randoms that just sweep us away as much. They will happen, they will come, but it will be more of a surprise, there aren't a ton of ThorZain-s and Stephano-s they don't just wake up and say "HEY, I'm gonna win a tourney and become an amazing scene leading player and I'll just break out at TSL4 for shits and giggles," I'm not trying to be condescending, but we have seen players break out this year onto the scene, but like it has been said before, some of the players don't seem tohave prepared so well for TSL4 expecting that they will be the next ThorZain or even Scarlett.
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TSL 3 was big because It was one of the first tournaments to mix koreans, europeans, and americans all in one tournament. Plus you had very few outlets for competition like we do today. The "unknown" factor isn't here because the scene is too established for that to happen nearly as often. It's really hard to replicate TSL 3: You had Boxer not even make it to the finals, Nestea loosing in the first round (and he was a literal God back then) by Goody who was definately unkown , Cruncher vs idra. It was all so unique and unusual back then, for foreigners to beat koreans, for thorzain and Goody to do well, For Boxer to loose. Now, its all the same players we've already heard of, doing things we already thought they would.
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As much as I like TL and have enjoyed TSL in the past, I can't help to notice that a lot of people harshly criticize the OP like he's a heretic for daring to criticize the almighty TSL, even though he was pretty reasonable. I agree with much of it, and I'll try to explain why I personally am less interested in TSL4.
Admittedly a lot has to do with the fact that I've been losing interest in SC2 lately. But who are all these people? I mean, I know most of the names and a couple of faces, and I've seen many of them play. In the Ro32, there were 3 players I personally cared about - now there aren't any.
Of the 16 players that are left -
I'm a fan of: 0
I kind of like: 2
I've never heard of : 5
I've heard but don't know much (if anything) about: 8
I have a decent idea of the personality and achievements of: 3
When I watch TSL, I'm getting replays of games that are sometimes "good", but they're replays, for one - of games that happen between players that mean nothing to me because I've never or barely heard of them. I don't have any stake in this, I just don't care about this tournament. From now, at least for me, the winner is going to be a number from 1 to 16.
And now people just might tell me, well TSL can't do anything about that, and this is completely true. I'm not advocating that TSL fixes matches to make me happy, and I'm not even saying that this is "fixable". I'm merely saying that, this is what we have now as far as I'm concerned. For people like me who follow the SC2 scene quite a bit but somewhat casually, we've got a bunch of faceless players winning tournaments, smiling for the camera and leaving with thousands of dollars.
Another notable thing is, Korean "superstars" come and go, never to be heard of again. I won't name anybody, but our American and European superstars keep much of their fans even though they slump or if they haven't showed ANY results since the switch from SCBW to SC2. So where are the real superstars? Are we ever going to have a SC2 Bonjwa or are we always going to shuffle with short-lived success stories about SC2Player#564678's lucrative 5-6 months tournament stomp followed by an endless slump.
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On August 06 2012 10:56 docvoc wrote:
I really think all the negative response to this blog just proves how little we should take from it. Seriously, obviously from how much GMarshall and TDL have questioned his writing and how little the OP seems to understand how hindsight works, there isn't much here. There was no Spoon Terran before TSL3, and TSL3 wasn't absolutely amazing other than the fact that it brought Koreans and Foreigners together (which is awesome) but it suffered from all the other things you say that TSL4 suffers from. The scene is much more established now, so its not like we are going to find randoms that just sweep us away as much. They will happen, they will come, but it will be more of a surprise, there aren't a ton of ThorZain-s and Stephano-s they don't just wake up and say "HEY, I'm gonna win a tourney and become an amazing scene leading player and I'll just break out at TSL4 for shits and giggles," I'm not trying to be condescending, but we have seen players break out this year onto the scene, but like it has been said before, some of the players don't seem tohave prepared so well for TSL4 expecting that they will be the next ThorZain or even Scarlett.
To address this post: If you don't want to take my comments seriously, I agree, you don't have to. I won't force you.
However, there was no Spoon Terran before the TSL 3, however in the Ro32, there was this amazing foreigner who was building the great wall of Thorzain, who was "hacking" to find baneling land mines, and completely dominated one of the top Koreans. That gave a great story too all his next games. There is none of that in the TSL 4. Naniwa on the other hand beat the guys who beat koreans, which is also somewhat exciting, although I must admit I was rooting for Kas and Hasuobs back then, despite Thorzain's and Nani's achievements, as they seemed the stronger players on average at the time. I was wrong ^^.
And yeah, we have seen players break out on the scene, but then we have seen the stalwarts who have remained on the scene. Mana/Hasuobs/Darkforce/Ret are really solid players. However, if you are looking for a breakout player, Fraer is playing against the ladder monster Kas in one of Kas's better MU's. Vortix is playing Babkyknight in a ZvP, which professional players have said that the MU is too singular (Stephano) and unwinnable if the zerg plays perfect (DRG), and lets not forget Naniwa's "I don't get this matchup" into Idra transition ("Gratz you play zerg").
To the rest:
First of all, I do understand how hindsight works. or at least how I understand your comments. There is no way of going back to change the brackets and I am apparently exuding bias towards results that have already happened.
I would like to say, that yes that may be possible, but on the day (ignoring my liquibet coz I vote with my heart there) i called every upset tonight. I am not upset that Hasu-obs and Thorzain gave amazing games, and after the 1st game I actually thought Thorzain had won it and had to go to bed. but... + Show Spoiler + the number 1 seed is out in a tournament where he had the best seeding and the worst draw, and I called this possibility hours before it was played. Post hoc ergo propter ftw :D (ok, not quite)
I also want to say I am wrong with my seeding comments. I apologize, I do sometimes use the wrong words to express my thoughts especially while writing things down. I don't know why it happens, but its probably why i am still a student working on my dissertation after a few years. lol. :D
What I meant to say, and I'll keep it short: The seeding, whatever method was chosen, was wrong. It did not accurately reflect the current strengths of the players and has resulted in high seeds with difficult games, upset potentials(the lower seeds) knocking themselves out, and generally as DJzaps put better than I ever could a lot less interest remaining in this tournament. I will update the main post with this again.
This is an event that is being broadcast from replays, twice a week over a good number of weeks. Keeping interest in the event to retain sponsorships is >>>> anything else..
The numbers associated with these players is not, in my opinion, any real indication of how they will end up in the final results.
Edit: Also just want to say, even when I was spouting my nonsense of rigging the matches, I never meant that you have Thorzain vs Naniwa in the Ro32 as an example, but that you had Mana maybe meeting Taeja in the Ro8 assuming that both made it thru that far. If they did it would accurately represent where I feel they should have ended up, while if they didn't you had fodder for "oh wow this guy beat taeja" or "this guy beat Mana"
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I came here looking for a good discussion, but I found a whine-fest of dissappointed fans and spoiled brats.
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On August 06 2012 09:13 Bagration wrote:
Tournament oversaturation. Back when TSL was around, there just seemed to be fewer tournaments, so TSL was extra "special". Now it is just another tournament without a lot of the big name players that draw in viewers.
Nowadays it is almost impossible to keep track of all the tournaments going on, especially since TSL isn't offline nor live. But we are still in the early stages of the tournament. These online tournaments usually build hype as it nears the finals.
This for me. Tournaments are on like all the time.
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It is a tournament, where most of the players had to qualify. So first of all, it's not TL's or the TSL's fault that there are not as much recognizable names in there as you'd like to see. The TSL isn't that super special event anymore, which is kinda sad, but unavoidable, too. There are way bigger tournaments like the MLG series, the WCS and the IPL, and on the "personality side" there's the HSC. The TSL doesn't feel like a premier event, it's more like a prestigious major tournament, because of its history.
I don't want to see known players, I want to see the best players. And newcomers are always great for the game. Of course, it's a bit hard to root for a completely unknown korean player, but I'd recommend to concentrate on the games, which were actually quite entertaining so far.
I'd also like to second rannasha's post.
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On August 06 2012 20:43 virpi wrote:
It is a tournament, where most of the players had to qualify. So first of all, it's not TL's or the TSL's fault that there are not as much recognizable names in there as you'd like to see. The TSL isn't that super special event anymore, which is kinda sad, but unavoidable, too. There are way bigger tournaments like the MLG series, the WCS and the IPL, and on the "personality side" there's the HSC. The TSL doesn't feel like a premier event, it's more like a prestigious major tournament, because of its history.
I don't want to see known players, I want to see the best players. And newcomers are always great for the game. Of course, it's a bit hard to root for a completely unknown korean player, but I'd recommend to concentrate on the games, which were actually quite entertaining so far.
I'd also like to second rannasha's post.
^^This.
I love the TSL because it's not the same people winning over and over again. In some way I'm glad that Naniwa and Thorzain got kicked out because now Thorzain and Naniwa fans from TSL3 have to find new people to root for, and that's what it's all about. Break out of old habits, and see who else is out there.When I saw the lineup of players, I knew like six of them. The rest I was completely clueless about until they were introduced by the casters.
Also, TSL still brings a lot of unorthodox games to the table. On the rare occasions I watch GSL all I see is captain standard man bullshit. It's well-executed but insanely boring to watch.
Here I think I've seen more cheese in four days of tournament than my last two months of ladder, units in matchups that don't usually feature those units (hullo muta wars) and epic comebacks that either win a game or at least prolong it for 15 more minutes of entertainment. This is fun. And I am enjoying it very very much.
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On August 06 2012 17:35 Kleinmuuhg wrote:
I came here looking for a good discussion, but I found a whine-fest of dissappointed fans and spoiled brats.
They always say this kind of stuff when people say bad things about something they like. Seems to me like you're whining about arguments that are sometimes legitimate just because you can :/
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United States8476 Posts
On August 06 2012 16:11 Arachne wrote:
Vortix is playing Babkyknight in a ZvP, which professional players have said that the MU is too singular (Stephano) and unwinnable if the zerg plays perfect (DRG), and lets not forget Naniwa's "I don't get this matchup" into Idra transition ("Gratz you play zerg").
This is really subjective and is bound to happen in every tournament. You may think Z>>>>>>>>P, but I'm willing to bet that more people think Z>>>>>>>>T. It just happens that Naniwa's worst MU is vs Zerg, which is a complete fluke.
To the rest:
I also want to say I am wrong with my seeding comments. I apologize, I do sometimes use the wrong words to express my thoughts especially while writing things down. I don't know why it happens, but its probably why i am still a student working on my dissertation after a few years. lol. :D
What I meant to say, and I'll keep it short: The seeding, whatever method was chosen, was wrong. It did not accurately reflect the current strengths of the players and has resulted in high seeds with difficult games, upset potentials(the lower seeds) knocking themselves out, and generally as DJzaps put better than I ever could a lot less interest remaining in this tournament. I will update the main post with this again.
This is an event that is being broadcast from replays, twice a week over a good number of weeks. Keeping interest in the event to retain sponsorships is >>>> anything else..
The numbers associated with these players is not, in my opinion, any real indication of how they will end up in the final results.
Again, I addressed all these points in my previous post. I agree that the rankings made are not 100% indicative of how well players will do in this tournament. But I challenge you to make a ranking that isn't subjective. You just can't because of how the scene is divided. You keep saying that the seedings are wrong, but I've yet to hear a suggestion of how exactly you would do the seedings.
So I'll reiterate. In your opinion, generating interest with good matches > everything else. In both my and TL's opinion, for a professional organization, professionalism, integrity, and fairness > everything else. Thus, you'll never have a rigged bracket based on subjective rankings as you're trying to suggest.
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I'm also not as excited for TSL4 for these reasons:
- We currently have a bad case of tournament over saturation in sc2, TSL does not feel " as " special, although It's still special.
- No " legends " of starcraft 2 like MC, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Marineking, Dongraegu in the tournament.
- Lots of outclassing in the ro32, but I have faith the matches will be a lot closer from the ro16 onwards.
There's nothing TL can do to fix these issues, just have to hope the tournament gets more exciting as it progresses.
I still have quite a few players left to cheer for, First, Coca, Squirtle, Keen. It's definitely not all bad.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 06 2012 13:12 Djzapz wrote:
As much as I like TL and have enjoyed TSL in the past, I can't help to notice that a lot of people harshly criticize the OP like he's a heretic for daring to criticize the almighty TSL, even though he was pretty reasonable. I agree with much of it, and I'll try to explain why I personally am less interested in TSL4.
Admittedly a lot has to do with the fact that I've been losing interest in SC2 lately. But who are all these people? I mean, I know most of the names and a couple of faces, and I've seen many of them play. In the Ro32, there were 3 players I personally cared about - now there aren't any.
Of the 16 players that are left -
I'm a fan of: 0
I kind of like: 2
I've never heard of : 5
I've heard but don't know much (if anything) about: 8
I have a decent idea of the personality and achievements of: 3
When I watch TSL, I'm getting replays of games that are sometimes "good", but they're replays, for one - of games that happen between players that mean nothing to me because I've never or barely heard of them. I don't have any stake in this, I just don't care about this tournament. From now, at least for me, the winner is going to be a number from 1 to 16.
And now people just might tell me, well TSL can't do anything about that, and this is completely true. I'm not advocating that TSL fixes matches to make me happy, and I'm not even saying that this is "fixable". I'm merely saying that, this is what we have now as far as I'm concerned. For people like me who follow the SC2 scene quite a bit but somewhat casually, we've got a bunch of faceless players winning tournaments, smiling for the camera and leaving with thousands of dollars.
Another notable thing is, Korean "superstars" come and go, never to be heard of again. I won't name anybody, but our American and European superstars keep much of their fans even though they slump or if they haven't showed ANY results since the switch from SCBW to SC2. So where are the real superstars? Are we ever going to have a SC2 Bonjwa or are we always going to shuffle with short-lived success stories about SC2Player#564678's lucrative 5-6 months tournament stomp followed by an endless slump.
I'm not criticizing the OP because he's criticizing the TSL. Rather, I'm trying to poke flaws in his specific argument. I agree that the matches could potentially be better, but as even you mentioned, it might not be "fixable". This OP suggests a specific fix, and I'm trying to make him see why it's not viable. I'll all for criticizing TSL, but not when the criticism, at least in my opinion, isn't legitimate.
I agree with everyone here that TSL4 is not as appealing as TSL3. It's quite obvious and all the other posts in this thread paint a better picture of why this is so better than the OP does. It's because of tournament saturation, the decline in the number of huge names, and it being an online tournament. Not because we didn't fix the brackets.
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On August 07 2012 01:20 Dodgin wrote:
I'm also not as excited for TSL4 for these reasons:
- We currently have a bad case of tournament over saturation in sc2, TSL does not feel " as " special, although It's still special.
- No " legends " of starcraft 2 like MC, Nestea, Mvp, MMA, Marineking, Dongraegu in the tournament.
- Lots of outclassing in the ro32, but I have faith the matches will be a lot closer from the ro16 onwards.
There's nothing TL can do to fix these issues, just have to hope the tournament gets more exciting as it progresses.
I still have quite a few players left to cheer for, First, Coca, Squirtle, Keen. It's definitely not all bad.
I really think the last point is important. Out of all the matches only a few were attractive (Ret/Squirtle, MajOr/Hyun) if you're looking for high level play from both players.
Should be solved next round.
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Well, I think allowing so many unknown Koreans into the tournament is bad for foreigner fan interest for some. Personally, I prefer watching matches between players I know about so I think TSL 3 was a nice balance since it had a limited number of koreans, but still enough to be argued it was a legitimate tournament.
At this point, the only player in the ro16 left who I care about is HasuObs, and if any of the other foreigners can actually beat a korean (or for MajOr, another one) then maybe them as well.
I feel a bit insensitive writing this, since TL simply did their best to be fair to global sc2 players to get a highly competitive field of players, but it's just the way I feel as a viewer.
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On August 07 2012 01:28 NrGmonk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 06 2012 13:12 Djzapz wrote:
As much as I like TL and have enjoyed TSL in the past, I can't help to notice that a lot of people harshly criticize the OP like he's a heretic for daring to criticize the almighty TSL, even though he was pretty reasonable. I agree with much of it, and I'll try to explain why I personally am less interested in TSL4.
Admittedly a lot has to do with the fact that I've been losing interest in SC2 lately. But who are all these people? I mean, I know most of the names and a couple of faces, and I've seen many of them play. In the Ro32, there were 3 players I personally cared about - now there aren't any.
Of the 16 players that are left -
I'm a fan of: 0
I kind of like: 2
I've never heard of : 5
I've heard but don't know much (if anything) about: 8
I have a decent idea of the personality and achievements of: 3
When I watch TSL, I'm getting replays of games that are sometimes "good", but they're replays, for one - of games that happen between players that mean nothing to me because I've never or barely heard of them. I don't have any stake in this, I just don't care about this tournament. From now, at least for me, the winner is going to be a number from 1 to 16.
And now people just might tell me, well TSL can't do anything about that, and this is completely true. I'm not advocating that TSL fixes matches to make me happy, and I'm not even saying that this is "fixable". I'm merely saying that, this is what we have now as far as I'm concerned. For people like me who follow the SC2 scene quite a bit but somewhat casually, we've got a bunch of faceless players winning tournaments, smiling for the camera and leaving with thousands of dollars.
Another notable thing is, Korean "superstars" come and go, never to be heard of again. I won't name anybody, but our American and European superstars keep much of their fans even though they slump or if they haven't showed ANY results since the switch from SCBW to SC2. So where are the real superstars? Are we ever going to have a SC2 Bonjwa or are we always going to shuffle with short-lived success stories about SC2Player#564678's lucrative 5-6 months tournament stomp followed by an endless slump. I'm not criticizing the OP because he's criticizing the TSL. Rather, I'm trying to poke flaws in his specific argument. I agree that the matches could potentially be better, but as even you mentioned, it might not be "fixable". This OP suggests a specific fix, and I'm trying to make him see why it's not viable. I'll all for criticizing TSL, but not when the criticism, at least in my opinion, isn't legitimate. I agree with everyone here that TSL4 is not as appealing as TSL3. It's quite obvious and all the other posts in this thread paint a better picture of why this is so better than the OP does. It's because of tournament saturation, the decline in the number of huge names, and it being an online tournament. Not because we didn't fix the brackets.
Fair enough.
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Sorry for the delay. NrGMonk I wasn't posting a suggestion on how to fix the seedings as it wasnt my place to, and while it probably made me come off a bit worse than i was intending, I didn't want to be one of those "this is wrong, it shoulda been done this way!" people. Tho I guess I kinda did anyway.
I think the biggest problem came in through the combination of the three processes.
From what I understand there were three rules in effect, in order.
Rule 1: Thorzain, Naniwa, kas are seeds 1,2,3.
Rule 2: To win a qualifier results in a higher seed than to qualify through points
Rule 3: TLPD is used to determine where everyone is ranked.
Rule 1 superceded Rule 2 superceding Rule 3, if that makes sense. And that led to the current perceived problem i see existing and am upset about. So what could have been done differently?
Well, there are a few situations I can see that could fix the perceived problem, hereafter referred to as the problem.
1. Use Rule 1 throughout. How well you have done in previous TSLs and TSL qualifiers gives you a points ranking system, where you are ranked, resulting in Thorzain, Naniwa, Kas, Hasu-obs, and then a scattering of the EU players until most likely you'd end up with the Koreans all at the bottom of the seedings, which isnt really desirable., So scrap that.
2. Use a combination of Rule 1 and rule 2. Players are seeded on how well they did in previous TSLs, and then in the calander order they qualified in the qualifiers, and then with the points players scattered across as they have earned points, I mean points are there for a reason right? This would end up with Daisy as the 4th seed, Nerchio 5th, and Curious 6th seed, in the order they won, until Keen, and then would start the players with the most points, starting with Select as the 18th seed, and ending with Squirtle as the 32nd seed.
Hang on tho, is squirtle really the 32nd player? Lets look at points again. Well we are ranking over two different regions, so there are two ways of looking at it, and the other way would be to put hasuobs as the last seed as he was the last EU qualifier, where Coca Squirtle and Bischu all slot in around each other around the number 5 slot.
Maybe we can look at averages instead, who scored the highest average over the qualifiers? Well, hasuobs qualifed with an average of 50, where Bischu qualifed with an average of 40. Is bischu a better player than hasu-obs? most people would say not. So lets go with that. The players who got the highest average points will be seeded in that order.
Considering that the points needed for Koreans to qualify was lower, and they had less tourney's by half, lets figure out a points modifer for them. Something that isnt exactly "omg koreans OP", but still not punishing them too much for only being able to play in 5 qualifiers.
So, we get our seeds 1 to 18 fairly easily. We also have a system to work out where the others slot in. Lets say the modifier for a quick example is 1.3x (guessed). So if the average points of an EU player is > than 1.3x the average points of the korean player, he slots in ahead.
So, who would be 1st? (doing this without a calculator so forgive me, about to play a game). Babyknight has 54.4 points, lets say he is the highest. Ok, the Koreans then. Life has an average of 54 as well. BUT use our modifier, boom its 69. So life is the highest seed at 19. Who's next?
etc etc
who's last? Well, lets look. Squritle and Coca both would have 33 averages, times by 1.3 goes to 42. Lowest EU is Darkforce (Edit: And JohnnyReco. The modifier isnt 100% perfect, and I didnt calculate all values, it was the idea behind it that I was punting), at about 31. So lowest seed is Darkforce, Squirtle and Coca, well maybe they shoulda tried harder. Round one, Thorzain vs Darkforce, Squirtle vs naniwa, Coca vs Kas. Well, that seems a bit tough, but Kas isnt too bad, and coca is a bit rusty so maybe he isnt as beastly as he used to be. Squirtle did really well, and then kinda failed, and Naniwa, who is the number two seed, should be able to take him in PvP, as korean PvP he isnt too bad at. And if Naniwa loses, well at least he lost to a name. Coca was put ahead of squirtle alphabetically, since they both achieved the qualifying points at the same tourney.
That is probably the most fair way to create the seeds.
3. The only fair way in which TLPD is used, in my opinioon, is if Rule 1 and Rule 2 is scrapped 100%, and TLPD alone is used. Rank players on how well they performed on the TLPD, or even on how well they are ranked on the system. That however, gives the problem of where exactly does the line of EU/KR cross. That isnt a definite line by any means, especially as players skill fluctuates, but I won't say its impossible to hypothesis where the EU TLPD enters into the KR TLPD, and be able to predict skill levels from that.
Ironically enough, the second proposed system has the exact same MU's for the seeded players. BUT. and its a big one
The korean players aren't seeded by any means in a rational manner. If a qualifier win is > a points qualification, why is life ahead of mana, welmu and elfi, but behind sase? whoh all directly qualified. He is also miles ahead of the seeding of BeastyQT.
By the extent, you can see I would favour the second system using average points. I did this in 30 minutes at my PC. If the seeds of a tournament don't make sense, don't run with them, change them!. And in no universe is hasuobs the 32nd seed for this tournament with this spread of players Bischu AND welmu are both here, and ye, its PvP but I rate hasu against both of them..Also, the multiplier isnt set in stone either. It was guesswork. Maybe 1.4 is needed and not 1.3. Maybe more fractions.
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You might think its not interesting, but I thought yesterday's games were exciting as hell, particularly the Taeja v Bischu series filled with rushes and going down to the final game.
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United States8476 Posts
Your suggest giving players more credit for past TSL performances, which I could get along with. But honestly this is kind of arbitrary and doesn't help the brackets, which you agree with.
The problem with your other suggestions is that you're putting too much work into "fixing" the brackets. They're unnatural when you start talking about multiplying ELOs by a factor of 1.3 or 1.8. You have to look at the players as almost blank slates so you treat them equally and not as players you analyze and then manipulate. You can't theorize a system, check to see the brackets it would make, and then scrap it if you don't like the brackets. Again, we're back to the tournament retaining integrity thing.
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Eh. I read through the entire blog and comments and rated it 2/5. I like that you're thinking about it but I don't like the conclusions you reached or even agree with the problems you've found. As it was already pointed out, my position is you applying hindsight to games that have already occured. Some of the games you mentioned were super hyped and the thread exploded when Naniwa was defeated.
Fuck, you can go an entire MLG without an upset as exciting as that. Worth the ticket right there; to me at least.
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@ NrG I agree with that, but to an extent. I created a system from scratch, and was using my gut instinct instead of a data base to compare results.
Obviously, you can't rig it 100% as there is a system, and even at the end I wasnt exactly 100% happy with squirtle at the bottom of the seeding, but was forced accept it as it was the fairest I was able to get the system in my attempt. Average points is quite a bit fairer than a straight points comparison, especially across regions when coupled with a multiplier. And I maybe shouldn't have even talked about the others, but wanted to show the evolution of my thought process.
And yes, if you are using a system where a strong player ends up showing as a weak player, unless you are confident in the system, it should be changed.
In defense of the multiplier, its not actually as bad as you are making it out to sound, as it would one of the few impartial ways of comparing the Korean qualifiers to the EU qualifiers. The question is the size of the multiplier, however. Is a Korean tourney 1.3 times harder than a EU one? Is it more, or is it less? I thumbsucked it admittedly, but it won't take someone who knows that they are doing very long to figure out a number that would be more accurate.
If I had used the international TPLD as a general rule of thumb, I might have to throw out all of the systems as everyone has Hyun and Squirtle not at the top of the points qualifiers. But lets go with I was trying to account for the dynamics of SC2, and how easy it is for a GSL finalist of one season to battle the next Ro32, which has happened quite a lot.
I still stand by the average example as the better system as it gets to compare players across the regions a lot easier than any of the other three systems I proposed.
The really funny thing is tho, none of the systems I talked about are even close to the one that was actually used. I see now that Hyun is higher ranked than Life on the international TLPD, but seeded way lower.
Which means that they probably used the Korean TLPD to rank Life over Hyun, which also means that they must have used a multiplier of sorts to compare the two. If they didn't, then the system in place is extremely arbitrary.
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Lol. Hi Probe. Must say I feel happy that I have two big posters in here. Most of my blogs fade into obscurity.
I must agree, that hindsight did bring up the complaint, but I only actually decided to post it on Sunday evening. It was the games to come, where I realized that it was Nerchio Darkforce ZvZ and Hasuobs Thorzain PvT and what were the likely outcomes of those matches that really made me dejected.
And when I realized that Nerchio Darkforce ZvZ, Hasuobs Thorzain PvT, Naniwa JonnyRecco PvZ and Fraer Kas PvT were not really accurate depictions of where I ranked the players for their seeding, it really nettled me. I am actually wondering if a lot of the problems I am getting is that people haven't quite realized that I ranked these players quite different from their seeds. And I almost wonder if their specific MU shouldn't come into play.
But Darkforce Nerchio ZvZ is not a good way to reward a 5th seed. Nor do I think Darkforce is the 28th worst player, I actually think he's lower than that tbh. Nerchio at 5th I can live with. Mana at 17th, when I actually looked at the seedings, and not just the bracket, seems wrong.
Welmu at 23, Squirtle at 22, Babyknight at 26, Coca at 24, Hack at 16. likewise. Yeah, I can say that all I want to, the TSL 4 system figured it out that way, But at the same time if the seeding system is inaccurate you can end up with a case of David vs an army of Goliaths in the final, and no ammount of lucky, or divinely guided, stones will help in a Bo7.
The hallmark of good systems are that they are understandable. I have been looking at this system over n over again, and it just doesn't make sense. In fact it seems almost deliberately biased in favour of Korea. The worst of the Korean qualifers are seeded better than the best of the EU qualifiers.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=355457
+ Show Spoiler [Full seed list] +- TSL3 1 (EG.ThorZaIN)
- TSL3 2 (Quantic.NaNiwa)
- TSL3 3 (EmpireKas)
- KR Winner #1 (Liquid`TaeJa)
- EUNA Winners #1 (AcerNerchio)
- KR Winner #2 (ST_Curious)
- EUNA Winners #2 (Karont3.VortiX)
- KR Winner #3 (CreatorPrime)
- EUNA Winners #3 (Quantic.SaSe)
- KR Winner #4 (MVPKeeN)
- EUNA Winners #4 (Liquid`Ret)
- KR Winner #5 (NSH_Sting)
- EUNA Winners #5 (ESCDaisy)
- KR Points Qualifiers #1 (ST_Life)
- EUNA Winners #6 (Major)
- KR Points Qualifiers #2 (ST_Hack)
- EUNA Winners #7 (mouzCCMaNa)
- KR Points Qualifiers #3 (TSL_HyuN)
- EUNA Winners #8 (ROGElfi)
- KR Points Qualifiers #4 (IM_First)
- EUNA Winners #9 (EmpireBeastyqt)
- KR Points Qualifiers #5 (ST_Squirtle)
- EUNA Winners #10 (EC.Welmu)
- KR Points Qualifiers #6 (SlayerSCoCa)
- EUNA Points Qualifiers #1 (Dignitas.SeleCT)
- EUNA Points Qualifiers #2 (FXO.BabyKnight)
- EUNA Points Qualifiers #3 (Mill.LaLush)
- EUNA Points Qualifiers #4 (aTn.DarkForce)
- EUNA Points Qualifiers #5 (Dignitas.Bischu)
- EUNA Points Qualifiers #6 (RoX.KIS.fraer)
- EUNA Points Qualifiers #7 (infs.JonnyRecco)
- EUNA Points Qualifiers #8 (mouzCC.HasuObs)
Note: Qualifier winners were sorted by TLPD Elo, while point qualifiers were sorted by TSL4 points
I just opened it to have a look. I actualy chuckled when I realized what NrG suggested it was based on, and what it was actually based on (sorry saw that bit at the end now). There are two completely conflicting methods being used here.
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United States8476 Posts
On August 07 2012 04:00 Arachne wrote:
@ NrG I agree with that, but to an extent. I created a system from scratch, and was using my gut instinct instead of a data base to compare results.
Obviously, you can't rig it 100% as there is a system, and even at the end I wasnt exactly 100% happy with squirtle at the bottom of the seeding, but was forced accept it as it was the fairest I was able to get the system in my attempt. Average points is quite a bit fairer than a straight points comparison, especially across regions when coupled with a multiplier. And I maybe shouldn't have even talked about the others, but wanted to show the evolution of my thought process.
And yes, if you are using a system where a strong player ends up showing as a weak player, unless you are confident in the system, it should be changed.
In defense of the multiplier, its not actually as bad as you are making it out to sound, as it would one of the few impartial ways of comparing the Korean qualifiers to the EU qualifiers. The question is the size of the multiplier, however. Is a Korean tourney 1.3 times harder than a EU one? Is it more, or is it less? I thumbsucked it admittedly, but it won't take someone who knows that they are doing very long to figure out a number that would be more accurate.
If I had used the international TPLD as a general rule of thumb, I might have to throw out all of the systems as everyone has Hyun and Squirtle not at the top of the points qualifiers. But lets go with I was trying to account for the dynamics of SC2, and how easy it is for a GSL finalist of one season to battle the next Ro32, which has happened quite a lot.
I still stand by the average example as the better system as it gets to compare players across the regions a lot easier than any of the other three systems I proposed.
The really funny thing is tho, none of the systems I talked about are even close to the one that was actually used. I see now that Hyun is higher ranked than Life on the international TLPD, but seeded way lower.
Which means that they probably used the Korean TLPD to rank Life over Hyun, which also means that they must have used a multiplier of sorts to compare the two. If they didn't, then the system in place is extremely arbitrary.
The exact way TL seeded is completely transparent and was explained somewhere both in the bracket show and written.
Edit: Ok, you found it
I just opened it to have a look. I actualy chuckled when I realized what NrG suggested it was based on, and what it was actually based on (sorry saw that bit at the end now). There are two completely conflicting methods being used here.
Don't understand what this means.
Lol. Hi Probe. Must say I feel happy that I have two big posters in here. Most of my blogs fade into obscurity.
Torte posted and he's probably the biggest poster there is.
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Ok, I am not a masters in stats or anything, and this is still just my opinion, as it has all been.
They say that they are using TLPD points to assign those who won qualifiers and then TSL 4 points to assign the points qualifiers. If they had used JUST the TLPD, Hyun would be the 5th seed Nerchio 6th, Vortix 7th etc. from what I can see from the international TLPD.
This is probably what I would have done, considering that I was initially unaware that the international TLPD actually had Koreans in it (those 5 Non-KR names on the right confused me T.T). Just use the TLPD straight up. Its a team liquid database, its a team liquid tournament. There would be no complaints. Its simple, straight forward and easy.
If I was using straight points to separate them, the modifier is 100% necessary, as the EU qualifier is not as difficult as the Korean qualifier. But, there are no points for the people who actually won qualifiers, so there must be a way to sort them out. In my points example, I used a date system, as the better players, in theory would win the earlier tournaments.
Going back to the points, some players played in more qualifiers, and as such had more points, but are not necassarily better than those who played in less qualifiers but had the same, or less points. So we would need a way of seperating those. I chose the average method with a modifier, which is necessary to adjust for the difference in skills between EU and KR.
TSL 4 hasnt done either system.
To go back to my rule system from earlier.
Rule 1. Thorzain, Naniwa, Kas are seeds 1 2 3.
Rule 2. We shall alternate every seed hereafter with one KR one EU (probably) starting with Korea 1st as its a harder region
Rule 3. We shall determine qualifier tournament winners rankings through the TLPD
Rule 4: When we run out of Korean Winners, we shall subsitute in Korean Points, based on qualifier points
Rule 5: When we run out of Koreans, we shall put the EU points qualifiers in.
Ok, so thats a bit more harsh that probably what actually happened, but still accurate.
Rule 3: So, we are using the TLPD to sort out players, but we arent using it straight, we are differentiating on what region they were in a "one for you one for me" basis. why? Vortix, Beasty and Major are all higher on the TLPD than curious is, yet he is number 6 seed.
Rule 4: if winning a qualifier is harder than qualifying on points, why are the lowest Korean qualifiers ranked higher than the EU qualifier winners?
Rule 4 and 5: Why are they giving the korean qualifer points so much weight that the korean who sneaks in with 133 points, is ranked higher than a player who has almost 100 points more than him, in just one more qualifier?
+ Show Spoiler +Select had 223 points in 5 qualifiers, Squirtle and Coca both had 133 in 4 qualifiers. and yet both are ranked above select.
Edit:
On August 07 2012 04:20 NrGmonk wrote:[ Show nested quote +Lol. Hi Probe. Must say I feel happy that I have two big posters in here. Most of my blogs fade into obscurity. Torte posted and he's probably the biggest poster there is.
Whoops. <3's to you too NrG ;D.
jks. Hi Torte. Thanks for coming 
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Tortes at least 400 lb. He's the size of NrG and me combined plus part of WaxAngel.
+ Show Spoiler +Vague jokes about post count being weight size because you sit inside all day and post. + Show Spoiler +
I have nothing else to say on this, although you are thinking it through more than most posters.
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That wasn't a very nice joke
+ Show Spoiler +
Thank you. I battle sometimes to put my thoughts into words, and I tend to make the sentences a lot longer than they should be.
^ Case in point.
Because of this ^ tho, I tend to go on a bit until i'm sure that people get what I mean. However, my viewpoint on this has changed from post to post I admit, as i research more and more and take in what people have said. I still disagree with the system tho (^_^).
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United States8476 Posts
I hate you all. NrG is a tag, not my name.
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EPT
