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On June 16 2012 20:08 Wrongspeedy wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 18:04 farvacola wrote:On June 16 2012 08:07 Wrongspeedy wrote:On June 16 2012 00:29 stk01001 wrote:On June 15 2012 21:15 Wrongspeedy wrote:Alcohol and Marijauna release Dopamine as well. Actually last time I checked Dopamine is just one of the chemicals our brains use to experience pleasure. Sex, Gambling, Drugs whatever it is, Dopamine probably plays a role. And of course when you depend on high amounts of it frequently your Hedonic Set Point is raised higher and requires more Dopamine to get the same effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopaminehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmillLast but not least. http://www.sa.org/http://saa-recovery.org/(^ One of those counts Masturbation) I am currently attending AA and MA (marijauna anonymous) meetings 7+ times a week, and they have helped me a lot (I haven't taken a mind or mood altering substance in 61 days ^_^, which is the longest I have ever gone since I started using them 8 years ago). Its just nice to know your not alone, and many many many people have experienced the same thing as you and are willing to talk about that openly and honestly. I honestly could not stop using until I started going to these groups and started to be completely honest with other people, that allowed me to be honest with myself. I was in outpatient treatment for 2 months and relapsing frequently even while being drug tested with the threat of losing my job or being recommended for inpatient. :S Now I feel pretty good and I am actually dealing with my life one problem at a time, not to mention I actually just get out and do shit. Hiking, rock climbing, trying new foods with friends, reading, biking, making music. I never had time for other people or things when all I cared about was getting high. Weed is not the most harmless shit on the planet(It is a stimulant, a depressant, and a halucinogen). Kittens, Puppies, and Babies are far less harmless. Weed will bitch slap you like non-other if you let it. I know for a fact that some meth addicts, coke addicts, and herion addicts will admit that weed was harder for them to quit. People that say its not addictive are full of shit. Some people don't have a problem with it, but that doesn't change the fact that many people do. I spent almost 300 hundred dollars a week on it and could not stop on my own, even when I wanted to. Oh and like I said at the beginning of my post, it releases dopamine, so you never really conquered dopamine abuse (after 3 days! Think about how much longer your going to be alive!). You probably will never "conquer" it, because your brain won't stop making it until you are dead (or you have a disease that stops it from producing). All you can do is know your faults and control yourself. Anyways, congrats on making positive changes in your life, not trying to be a downer on you. But I felt like I should share part of my experience. Weed made me want to die, I was angry, isolated, and depressed every day and life had no purpose except to work (so that I could afford to spend over 13k a year on Weed) and get high. And getting high was never as fun as the first time. Some people don't have problems with things like Alchohol, Weed, Sex. For other people it will literally ruin or take their lives away. I'm gonna have to strongly disagree with whoever is telling you weed is harder to quit than heroin or cocaine. I'm currently 28 years old. I've smoked weed on and off since high school. I was also an opiate addict for 4 years (oxycontin, then evetnually heroin, sniffed not intravenous) and have also been addicted to cocaine and cigarettes for stints in my life. Weed was definitely the easiest thing for me to quit, compared to the other drugs. It required little effort, there are virtually no physical withdrawal symptoms, it's almost all mental. If you told me I'd either have to quit weed or heroin cold turkey I'll take weed everytime no question. have you ever gone through opiate withdrawal? it's like hell on earth.. I would say cigarettes and opiates are probably the hardest substances to quit.. I know benzos are extremely hard too but I've never really done those (like xanex etc.) Also no offense but I personally think it's silly weed is viewed as something you need to go get help for to quit. (I always thought MA was methadone anonymous.. Marijuana anonymous??.. it's just funny for someone who's had to go through real drug withdrawal.. I mean inpatient treatment for weed? does that even exist?) Alcohol is more understandable, but both things in moderation really are relatively harmless. MODERATION.. it's key to everything. Why does everything have to be all out or nothing? I still choose to smoke weed today (I quit for 4 years) and drink alchol on weekends, and they are far less destructive than the other harder drugs (still need to be careful with alcohol). I do it in moderation, and I don't view it as something that controls me or my life, like opiates used to. I have a great job, make good money, I have motivation to work out 3-4 times a week. Really the only thing weed does is make me a little lazy and tired at times, but again it's something I could quit easily if I wanted to, all you need is a little willpower. I really don't see a need to atm since it's not effecting my life negatively. Opiates on the other hand destroyed my life, and alcohol can do the same if you drink everyday.. I just don't think marijuana should be grouped with things like heroin, cocaine.. even alcohol.. it really is not the same.. Thats a nice opinion. I didn't say all herion and coke addicts felt that way, just that I personally know some who do. Willpower has nothing to do with it. My willpower was for buying more drugs, my favorite happened to be MJ. Ciggs are harder to quit than just about anything, but people don't give a shit about them. And for you to say that MJ doesn't deserve to be in the same class as other narcotics because thats your Opinion; is just that, Your Opinion. I didn't say everyone who smokes weed will have a problem with it. I have friends who smoke an eigth every two weeks between themselves and their gf's. I smoked that in a day easy, Every Single Day. I am not saying that its impossible to use responsibly, only that its impossible for some people to use responsibly. There are plenty of people in MA who have made your Opiate abuse look like childs play, and then had a hard time quitting MJ. MJ also has withdrawl, maybe not as bad as herion or alcohol; but for me personally, not sleeping for 2 weeks, not feeling like I could eat anything, having headaches for 2 months, and in general just being pissed off all the time, count as withdrawl. Weed is a real drug. Alcohol is a drug PERIOD. You offend me when you talk about real drug withdrawls. While your at it, why don't you just tell HeavOnEarth to just keep fapping away because its not hardcore enough for you. No, just no. It is not an opinion, it is hard fact backed by addiction rates, by measures of bodily harm, by measures of societal impact. Violence rates, weapons charges, and companion illegalities are almost non-existent with marijuana, whereas with cocaine and methamphetamine they are considered standard fare. Just because quitting marijuana was difficult for you does not somehow change these things, and to then take the haughty road of claiming offense? Well, since reality is apparently dictated by anecdotal experience, here's an anecdote for you. I was a part of the central Ohio drug scene for 5 years, during which I sold drugs, lived with drug dealers, and did many drugs myself. Wow, you can smoke an eighth of weed a day, what an addict you were! I've seen kids spit into a spoon, dissolve dmt in said spit, and inject it. I've seen women acquiesce to horrible acts of multiple partner sex just so they could stave off their dope sickness with some methadone. A friend of mine once became so delusional on massive doses of Xanax that he attempted to rob a grocery store with a golf club during the middle of the night. I'm not proud of some of the things I've done and the people I've consorted with, but I do value the lessons they've taught me when it comes to what the use of mind-altering chemicals can do to the human brain ."There are plenty of people in MA who have made your opiate abuse look like childs play," This is garbage straight out of a 1950's after-school special, and has no basis in any reality, not even one warped by drugs. Have you ever held someone in your arms while they went through opiate withdrawal? I will never forget the smell of her sweat, the violent shaking of her limbs, or the nonsensical pleas for dope that slurred out in between bouts of vomiting. She died a week later, after a rebound injection in a new place proved too much for her already frail person. This is where I'm gonna get even more politically incorrect. One cannot bring up addiction without discussing weakness, the two go hand in hand. I've seen kids get through medical school with a needle in their arm, and I've seen "psychonauts" flounder for years on dreams of discovering a truth that does not exist, and the difference ends up being weakness. Maybe you actually did know some people who hit rock bottom on marijuana, what I'm tlling you is that they were weak, plain and simple. If you happen to be too weak to consume psychadelic substances, then that is FINE! But stop there, because when you start to tell me that thc and diacetylmorphine have the same effect, well thats just bullshit. To the OP, good luck friend. Life's trials and tribulations are what make the good parts of life so sweet. You act like because people choose to go to MA the only drug they ever did is MJ (the point saying that people in MA made his opiate abuse look like childs play was because there are plenty of Herion/Opiate addicts in MA). Addiction is addiction. People in Narcotics Anonymous see it that way, why can't you? The physical symptoms may change from one drug to another, but the reasons for using and the process your brain uses to justify continuing to use are pretty much exactly the same. As for your addiction rates, where are they, how were they collected? I can find a million different ways to pick apart "facts". What I was saying was my opinion, and I only said it because it pisses me off when someone trys to tell me that something is harmless when I have spent the last 4 months having people convince me its not. Outpatient groups, 12-step groups, work, family, friends. Not really sure how to completely respond to your post honestly. I agree drugs are bad. I guess where we differ is what is a drug? Well the Federal Government classifies Weed as a Schedule 1 Narcotic (not that I even agree with that). "(1) Schedule I.— (A) The drug or other substance has a high potential for abuse. (B) The drug or other substance has no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States. (C) There is a lack of accepted safety for use of the drug or other substance under medical supervision." Schedule 1 drugs + Show Spoiler +-gamma-Hydroxybutyric acid (GHB), which has been used as a general anaesthetic and for the treatment of narcolepsy and alcohol withdrawal with minimal side-effects [25] and controlled action but a limited safe dosage range. It was placed in Schedule I in March 2000 after widespread recreational use led to increased emergency room visits, hospitalizations, and deaths.[26] Uniquely, this drug is also listed in Schedule III for limited uses, under the trademark Xyrem;
-12-Methoxyibogamine (Ibogaine), being reported to help in Heroin and other substance addiction
-Marijuana including the Cannabis plant and its THC. Controversy exists about the placement of Marijuana in Schedule I. Like some other drugs in schedule I, there have been no reported cases of THC overdose. Main article: Removal of cannabis from Schedule I of the Controlled Substances Act.
-Heroin (Diacetylmorphine), which is used in some European countries as a potent pain reliever in terminal cancer patients, and as second option, after morphine. (It is about twice as potent, by weight, as morphine.). In the United Kingdom it is also prescribed to intravenous heroin addicts who have not responded to, or are unable to tolerate methadone substitution therapy.
-Other strong opiates and opioids used in many other countries, or even in the USA in previous decades for palliation of moderate to severe pain such as nicomorphine (Vilan), dextromoramide (Palfium), ketobemidone (Ketalgin), dihydromorphine (Paramorfan), piritramide (Dipidolor), diacetyldihydromorphine (Paralaudin), dipipanone (Wellconal), phenadoxone (Heptalgin) and many others.
-Weak opioids used for relief of moderate pain, diarrhea, and coughing such as benzylmorphine (Peronine), nicocodeine (Tusscodin), Dihydrocodeinone enol acetate, tilidine (Valoron), meptazinol (Meptid), propiram (Algeril), acetyldihydrocodeine and others.
-Pholcodine, a weak opioid cough suppressant with negligible abuse potential[citation needed] which is available over-the-counter in many other countries.
-MDMA (3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine, Ecstasy), which continues to be used medically, notably in the treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). The medical community originally agreed upon placing it as a Schedule III substance, but the government denied this suggestion, despite two court rulings by the DEA's administrative law judge that placing MDMA in Schedule I was illegal. It was temporarily unscheduled after the first administrative hearing from December 22, 1987 - July 1, 1988.[27]
-Psilocybin, the active ingredient in psychedelic mushrooms;
-5-MeO-DIPT (Foxy / Foxy Methoxy / 5-methoxy-N,N-diisopropyltryptamine)
-Lysergic acid diethylamide ("LSD" / "Acid"), formerly used in psychotherapy, and the best known treatment for alcoholism to date.[28]
-Peyote, a cactus growing in nature primarily in northeastern Mexico; one of the few plants specifically scheduled, with a narrow exception to its legal status for religious use by members of the Native American Church;
-Mescaline, the main psychoactive ingredients of the peyote, san pedro, achuma, and Peruvian torch cacti;
-Methaqualone (Quaalude, Sopor, Mandrax), a sedative that was previously used for similar purposes as barbiturates, until it was rescheduled;
-2,5-dimethoxy-4-methylamphetamine (STP / DOM), a psychotropic hallucinogen that rose to prominence in 1967 in San Francisco when it appeared in pill form (known as "STP", in doses as high as four times the amounts previously considered "safe") on the black market;
-2C-T-7 (Blue Mystic / T7), a psychotropic entheogen;
-2C-B (Nexus / Bees / Venus / Bromo Mescaline), a psychotropic hallucinogen and aphrodisiac;
-Cathinone (β-ketoamphetamine), a monoamine alkaloid found in the shrub Catha edulis (Khat);
-AMT (alpha-methyltryptamine), an anti-depressant from the tryptamine family; first developed in the Soviet Union and marketed under the brand name Indopan;
-Bufotenin (5-OH-DMT), a naturally-occurring tryptamine with hallucinogenic and aphrodisiac properties; named for the Bufo genus of toads whose poison contains the chemical;[29]
-Benzylpiperazine (BZP), a synthetic drug also known as "party pills" or "herbal highs" is nearly indistinguishable from dexamphetamine and similar to MDMA. It has been shown to be associated with an increase in seizures if taken alone.[30] Although the effects of BZP are not as potent as MDMA, it can produce neuroadaptions that can cause an increase in the potential for abuse of this drug.[31] ^ Thats a fact, feel free to pick it apart in all its boldness. I don't think I ever said it was easier to get off Herion than it is MJ. I'm trying to make a point that its addictive (because thats part of the stigma attached to weed, "its harmless, and not addictive", which in turn makes it harder for people to admit it was a problem for them). And all you want to do, I guess, is call people weak (people you don't know). More stories I guess. One of my best friends is a Herion addict. He currently is not using Herion, but cannot stop smoking ganja or drinking alcohol. I'm not trying to say Herion is easier to quit, but some people do have a hard time quitting substances with "easier" withdrawls. Call them weak or whatever you want, I won't call them anything. I am fucking Proud to say I am an Addict. The more I say it and believe it, the less likely I am going to let myself go back out. Does the thought of dropping acid and taking bong rips excite me? Hell yes, but thats part of the reason why I cannot do it anymore. Anyways I feel like we are detracting from HeavOnEarths blog by discussing this here, if you want to debate me on something it might be better in a PM. (Here is a good read as well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Removal_of_cannabis_from_Schedule_I_of_the_Controlled_Substances_Act) + Show Spoiler +On June 16 2012 18:04 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 08:07 Wrongspeedy wrote:On June 16 2012 00:29 stk01001 wrote:On June 15 2012 21:15 Wrongspeedy wrote:Alcohol and Marijauna release Dopamine as well. Actually last time I checked Dopamine is just one of the chemicals our brains use to experience pleasure. Sex, Gambling, Drugs whatever it is, Dopamine probably plays a role. And of course when you depend on high amounts of it frequently your Hedonic Set Point is raised higher and requires more Dopamine to get the same effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopaminehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmillLast but not least. http://www.sa.org/http://saa-recovery.org/(^ One of those counts Masturbation) I am currently attending AA and MA (marijauna anonymous) meetings 7+ times a week, and they have helped me a lot (I haven't taken a mind or mood altering substance in 61 days ^_^, which is the longest I have ever gone since I started using them 8 years ago). Its just nice to know your not alone, and many many many people have experienced the same thing as you and are willing to talk about that openly and honestly. I honestly could not stop using until I started going to these groups and started to be completely honest with other people, that allowed me to be honest with myself. I was in outpatient treatment for 2 months and relapsing frequently even while being drug tested with the threat of losing my job or being recommended for inpatient. :S Now I feel pretty good and I am actually dealing with my life one problem at a time, not to mention I actually just get out and do shit. Hiking, rock climbing, trying new foods with friends, reading, biking, making music. I never had time for other people or things when all I cared about was getting high. Weed is not the most harmless shit on the planet(It is a stimulant, a depressant, and a halucinogen). Kittens, Puppies, and Babies are far less harmless. Weed will bitch slap you like non-other if you let it. I know for a fact that some meth addicts, coke addicts, and herion addicts will admit that weed was harder for them to quit. People that say its not addictive are full of shit. Some people don't have a problem with it, but that doesn't change the fact that many people do. I spent almost 300 hundred dollars a week on it and could not stop on my own, even when I wanted to. Oh and like I said at the beginning of my post, it releases dopamine, so you never really conquered dopamine abuse (after 3 days! Think about how much longer your going to be alive!). You probably will never "conquer" it, because your brain won't stop making it until you are dead (or you have a disease that stops it from producing). All you can do is know your faults and control yourself. Anyways, congrats on making positive changes in your life, not trying to be a downer on you. But I felt like I should share part of my experience. Weed made me want to die, I was angry, isolated, and depressed every day and life had no purpose except to work (so that I could afford to spend over 13k a year on Weed) and get high. And getting high was never as fun as the first time. Some people don't have problems with things like Alchohol, Weed, Sex. For other people it will literally ruin or take their lives away. I'm gonna have to strongly disagree with whoever is telling you weed is harder to quit than heroin or cocaine. I'm currently 28 years old. I've smoked weed on and off since high school. I was also an opiate addict for 4 years (oxycontin, then evetnually heroin, sniffed not intravenous) and have also been addicted to cocaine and cigarettes for stints in my life. Weed was definitely the easiest thing for me to quit, compared to the other drugs. It required little effort, there are virtually no physical withdrawal symptoms, it's almost all mental. If you told me I'd either have to quit weed or heroin cold turkey I'll take weed everytime no question. have you ever gone through opiate withdrawal? it's like hell on earth.. I would say cigarettes and opiates are probably the hardest substances to quit.. I know benzos are extremely hard too but I've never really done those (like xanex etc.) Also no offense but I personally think it's silly weed is viewed as something you need to go get help for to quit. (I always thought MA was methadone anonymous.. Marijuana anonymous??.. it's just funny for someone who's had to go through real drug withdrawal.. I mean inpatient treatment for weed? does that even exist?) Alcohol is more understandable, but both things in moderation really are relatively harmless. MODERATION.. it's key to everything. Why does everything have to be all out or nothing? I still choose to smoke weed today (I quit for 4 years) and drink alchol on weekends, and they are far less destructive than the other harder drugs (still need to be careful with alcohol). I do it in moderation, and I don't view it as something that controls me or my life, like opiates used to. I have a great job, make good money, I have motivation to work out 3-4 times a week. Really the only thing weed does is make me a little lazy and tired at times, but again it's something I could quit easily if I wanted to, all you need is a little willpower. I really don't see a need to atm since it's not effecting my life negatively. Opiates on the other hand destroyed my life, and alcohol can do the same if you drink everyday.. I just don't think marijuana should be grouped with things like heroin, cocaine.. even alcohol.. it really is not the same.. Thats a nice opinion. I didn't say all herion and coke addicts felt that way, just that I personally know some who do. Willpower has nothing to do with it. My willpower was for buying more drugs, my favorite happened to be MJ. Ciggs are harder to quit than just about anything, but people don't give a shit about them. And for you to say that MJ doesn't deserve to be in the same class as other narcotics because thats your Opinion; is just that, Your Opinion. I didn't say everyone who smokes weed will have a problem with it. I have friends who smoke an eigth every two weeks between themselves and their gf's. I smoked that in a day easy, Every Single Day. I am not saying that its impossible to use responsibly, only that its impossible for some people to use responsibly. There are plenty of people in MA who have made your Opiate abuse look like childs play, and then had a hard time quitting MJ. MJ also has withdrawl, maybe not as bad as herion or alcohol; but for me personally, not sleeping for 2 weeks, not feeling like I could eat anything, having headaches for 2 months, and in general just being pissed off all the time, count as withdrawl. Weed is a real drug. Alcohol is a drug PERIOD. You offend me when you talk about real drug withdrawls. While your at it, why don't you just tell HeavOnEarth to just keep fapping away because its not hardcore enough for you. No, just no. It is not an opinion, it is hard fact backed by addiction rates, by measures of bodily harm, by measures of societal impact. Violence rates, weapons charges, and companion illegalities are almost non-existent with marijuana, whereas with cocaine and methamphetamine they are considered standard fare. Just because quitting marijuana was difficult for you does not somehow change these things, and to then take the haughty road of claiming offense? Well, since reality is apparently dictated by anecdotal experience, here's an anecdote for you. I was a part of the central Ohio drug scene for 5 years, during which I sold drugs, lived with drug dealers, and did many drugs myself. Wow, you can smoke an eighth of weed a day, what an addict you were! I've seen kids spit into a spoon, dissolve dmt in said spit, and inject it. I've seen women acquiesce to horrible acts of multiple partner sex just so they could stave off their dope sickness with some methadone. A friend of mine once became so delusional on massive doses of Xanax that he attempted to rob a grocery store with a golf club during the middle of the night. I'm not proud of some of the things I've done and the people I've consorted with, but I do value the lessons they've taught me when it comes to what the use of mind-altering chemicals can do to the human brain."There are plenty of people in MA who have made your opiate abuse look like childs play," This is garbage straight out of a 1950's after-school special, and has no basis in any reality, not even one warped by drugs. Have you ever held someone in your arms while they went through opiate withdrawal? I will never forget the smell of her sweat, the violent shaking of her limbs, or the nonsensical pleas for dope that slurred out in between bouts of vomiting. She died a week later, after a rebound injection in a new place proved too much for her already frail person. This is where I'm gonna get even more politically incorrect. One cannot bring up addiction without discussing weakness, the two go hand in hand. I've seen kids get through medical school with a needle in their arm, and I've seen "psychonauts" flounder for years on dreams of discovering a truth that does not exist, and the difference ends up being weakness. Maybe you actually did know some people who hit rock bottom on marijuana, what I'm tlling you is that they were weak, plain and simple. If you happen to be too weak to consume psychadelic substances, then that is FINE! But stop there, because when you start to tell me that thc and diacetylmorphine have the same effect, well thats just bullshit. What? Not gonna call HeavOnEarth weak too?
First off, we are all weak, its simply a question of degree. When you suggest that one can become addicted to anything, you are indeed correct, and I apologize if I gave you the impression I was arguing to the contrary. But this does not mean that all addiction is the same. Can different people rationalize their addiction in a similar manner? Yes, but generalizations of addiction is a rehabilitative strategy, meant to break down preconceived notions that can get in the way of treatment. In fact, there is an increasing amount of criticism being leveled at the "________ Anonymous" method of treatment, in that success rates pale in comparison to more individual foci. In any case, here are some drug profiles.
From wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahydrocannabinol
"The pharmacological actions of THC result from its partial agonist activity at the cannabinoid receptor CB1, located mainly in the central nervous system, and the CB2 receptor, mainly expressed in cells of the immune system.[11] The psychoactive effects of THC are primarily mediated by its activation of CB1G-protein coupled receptors, which result in a decrease in the concentration of the second messenger molecule cAMP through inhibition of adenylate cyclase.[12]
The presence of these specialized cannabinoid receptors in the brain led researchers to the discovery of endocannabinoids, such as anandamide and 2-arachidonoyl glyceride (2-AG). THC targets receptors in a manner far less selective than endocannabinoid molecules released during retrograde signaling, as the drug has a relatively low cannabinoid receptor efficacy and affinity. In populations of low cannabinoid receptor density, THC may act to antagonize endogenous agonists that possess greater receptor efficacy.[13] THC is a lipophilic molecule and may bind non-specifically to a variety of receptors in the brain and body, such as adipose tissue. For a review of the mechanisms behind endocannabinoid synaptic transmission, see the endocannabinoid system.
Several studies have suggested that THC also has an anticholinesterase action[14][15] which may implicate it as a potential treatment for Alzheimer's and Myasthenia Gravis."
From wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diacetylmorphine
"Both morphine and 6-MAM are μ-opioid agonists that bind to receptors present throughout the brain, spinal cord, and gut of all mammals. The μ-opioid receptor also binds endogenous opioid peptides such as β-endorphin, Leu-enkephalin, and Met-enkephalin. Repeated use of heroin results in a number of physiological changes, including an increase in the production of μ-opioid receptors (upregulation).[citation needed] These physiological alterations lead to tolerance and dependence, so that cessation of heroin use results in a set of remarkably uncomfortable symptoms including pain, anxiety, muscle spasms, and insomnia called the opioid withdrawal syndrome. Depending on usage it has an onset four to 24 hours after the last dose of heroin. Morphine also binds to δ- and κ-opioid receptors."
So you see, from the very outset of use the effects of various drugs are profoundly different on the brain, and long term use/addiction effects are different in the same sense. Heroin addiction's hallmark is a remarkable increase and proliferation of μ-opioid receptors, and when one attempts to abstain from heroin use, the lack of stimulation of said receptors is what prompts the bulk of physiological/psychological effects of heroin addiction. Thc use, on the other hand, is profoundly different in terms of short and long term effects on the brain, and in fact researchers are to this day having a difficult time pinning down the entirety of the chemical's effect on the brain. What we do know is that the effects of the drug revolve around receptors CB1 and CB2 (worthy of note here is the proliferation of CB2 receptors in immune system cells, which throws everybody for a loop). In any case, the moral of the story is that different drugs/activities prompt different addictive responses.
Nothing is harmless, and humans have the uncanny ability to form habits around anything. I'll leave you with this article, and although it is one amongst many, it is a fairly accurate measure of relative effects of different drugs.
http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_cause_most_harm
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 17 2012 03:08 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 20:08 Wrongspeedy wrote:On June 16 2012 18:04 farvacola wrote:On June 16 2012 08:07 Wrongspeedy wrote:On June 16 2012 00:29 stk01001 wrote:On June 15 2012 21:15 Wrongspeedy wrote:Alcohol and Marijauna release Dopamine as well. Actually last time I checked Dopamine is just one of the chemicals our brains use to experience pleasure. Sex, Gambling, Drugs whatever it is, Dopamine probably plays a role. And of course when you depend on high amounts of it frequently your Hedonic Set Point is raised higher and requires more Dopamine to get the same effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopaminehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmillLast but not least. http://www.sa.org/http://saa-recovery.org/(^ One of those counts Masturbation) I am currently attending AA and MA (marijauna anonymous) meetings 7+ times a week, and they have helped me a lot (I haven't taken a mind or mood altering substance in 61 days ^_^, which is the longest I have ever gone since I started using them 8 years ago). Its just nice to know your not alone, and many many many people have experienced the same thing as you and are willing to talk about that openly and honestly. I honestly could not stop using until I started going to these groups and started to be completely honest with other people, that allowed me to be honest with myself. I was in outpatient treatment for 2 months and relapsing frequently even while being drug tested with the threat of losing my job or being recommended for inpatient. :S Now I feel pretty good and I am actually dealing with my life one problem at a time, not to mention I actually just get out and do shit. Hiking, rock climbing, trying new foods with friends, reading, biking, making music. I never had time for other people or things when all I cared about was getting high. Weed is not the most harmless shit on the planet(It is a stimulant, a depressant, and a halucinogen). Kittens, Puppies, and Babies are far less harmless. Weed will bitch slap you like non-other if you let it. I know for a fact that some meth addicts, coke addicts, and herion addicts will admit that weed was harder for them to quit. People that say its not addictive are full of shit. Some people don't have a problem with it, but that doesn't change the fact that many people do. I spent almost 300 hundred dollars a week on it and could not stop on my own, even when I wanted to. Oh and like I said at the beginning of my post, it releases dopamine, so you never really conquered dopamine abuse (after 3 days! Think about how much longer your going to be alive!). You probably will never "conquer" it, because your brain won't stop making it until you are dead (or you have a disease that stops it from producing). All you can do is know your faults and control yourself. Anyways, congrats on making positive changes in your life, not trying to be a downer on you. But I felt like I should share part of my experience. Weed made me want to die, I was angry, isolated, and depressed every day and life had no purpose except to work (so that I could afford to spend over 13k a year on Weed) and get high. And getting high was never as fun as the first time. Some people don't have problems with things like Alchohol, Weed, Sex. For other people it will literally ruin or take their lives away. I'm gonna have to strongly disagree with whoever is telling you weed is harder to quit than heroin or cocaine. I'm currently 28 years old. I've smoked weed on and off since high school. I was also an opiate addict for 4 years (oxycontin, then evetnually heroin, sniffed not intravenous) and have also been addicted to cocaine and cigarettes for stints in my life. Weed was definitely the easiest thing for me to quit, compared to the other drugs. It required little effort, there are virtually no physical withdrawal symptoms, it's almost all mental. If you told me I'd either have to quit weed or heroin cold turkey I'll take weed everytime no question. have you ever gone through opiate withdrawal? it's like hell on earth.. I would say cigarettes and opiates are probably the hardest substances to quit.. I know benzos are extremely hard too but I've never really done those (like xanex etc.) Also no offense but I personally think it's silly weed is viewed as something you need to go get help for to quit. (I always thought MA was methadone anonymous.. Marijuana anonymous??.. it's just funny for someone who's had to go through real drug withdrawal.. I mean inpatient treatment for weed? does that even exist?) Alcohol is more understandable, but both things in moderation really are relatively harmless. MODERATION.. it's key to everything. Why does everything have to be all out or nothing? I still choose to smoke weed today (I quit for 4 years) and drink alchol on weekends, and they are far less destructive than the other harder drugs (still need to be careful with alcohol). I do it in moderation, and I don't view it as something that controls me or my life, like opiates used to. I have a great job, make good money, I have motivation to work out 3-4 times a week. Really the only thing weed does is make me a little lazy and tired at times, but again it's something I could quit easily if I wanted to, all you need is a little willpower. I really don't see a need to atm since it's not effecting my life negatively. Opiates on the other hand destroyed my life, and alcohol can do the same if you drink everyday.. I just don't think marijuana should be grouped with things like heroin, cocaine.. even alcohol.. it really is not the same.. Thats a nice opinion. I didn't say all herion and coke addicts felt that way, just that I personally know some who do. Willpower has nothing to do with it. My willpower was for buying more drugs, my favorite happened to be MJ. Ciggs are harder to quit than just about anything, but people don't give a shit about them. And for you to say that MJ doesn't deserve to be in the same class as other narcotics because thats your Opinion; is just that, Your Opinion. I didn't say everyone who smokes weed will have a problem with it. I have friends who smoke an eigth every two weeks between themselves and their gf's. I smoked that in a day easy, Every Single Day. I am not saying that its impossible to use responsibly, only that its impossible for some people to use responsibly. There are plenty of people in MA who have made your Opiate abuse look like childs play, and then had a hard time quitting MJ. MJ also has withdrawl, maybe not as bad as herion or alcohol; but for me personally, not sleeping for 2 weeks, not feeling like I could eat anything, having headaches for 2 months, and in general just being pissed off all the time, count as withdrawl. Weed is a real drug. Alcohol is a drug PERIOD. You offend me when you talk about real drug withdrawls. While your at it, why don't you just tell HeavOnEarth to just keep fapping away because its not hardcore enough for you. No, just no. It is not an opinion, it is hard fact backed by addiction rates, by measures of bodily harm, by measures of societal impact. Violence rates, weapons charges, and companion illegalities are almost non-existent with marijuana, whereas with cocaine and methamphetamine they are considered standard fare. Just because quitting marijuana was difficult for you does not somehow change these things, and to then take the haughty road of claiming offense? Well, since reality is apparently dictated by anecdotal experience, here's an anecdote for you. I was a part of the central Ohio drug scene for 5 years, during which I sold drugs, lived with drug dealers, and did many drugs myself. Wow, you can smoke an eighth of weed a day, what an addict you were! I've seen kids spit into a spoon, dissolve dmt in said spit, and inject it. I've seen women acquiesce to horrible acts of multiple partner sex just so they could stave off their dope sickness with some methadone. A friend of mine once became so delusional on massive doses of Xanax that he attempted to rob a grocery store with a golf club during the middle of the night. I'm not proud of some of the things I've done and the people I've consorted with, but I do value the lessons they've taught me when it comes to what the use of mind-altering chemicals can do to the human brain ."There are plenty of people in MA who have made your opiate abuse look like childs play," This is garbage straight out of a 1950's after-school special, and has no basis in any reality, not even one warped by drugs. Have you ever held someone in your arms while they went through opiate withdrawal? I will never forget the smell of her sweat, the violent shaking of her limbs, or the nonsensical pleas for dope that slurred out in between bouts of vomiting. She died a week later, after a rebound injection in a new place proved too much for her already frail person. This is where I'm gonna get even more politically incorrect. One cannot bring up addiction without discussing weakness, the two go hand in hand. I've seen kids get through medical school with a needle in their arm, and I've seen "psychonauts" flounder for years on dreams of discovering a truth that does not exist, and the difference ends up being weakness. Maybe you actually did know some people who hit rock bottom on marijuana, what I'm tlling you is that they were weak, plain and simple. If you happen to be too weak to consume psychadelic substances, then that is FINE! But stop there, because when you start to tell me that thc and diacetylmorphine have the same effect, well thats just bullshit. To the OP, good luck friend. Life's trials and tribulations are what make the good parts of life so sweet. You act like because people choose to go to MA the only drug they ever did is MJ (the point saying that people in MA made his opiate abuse look like childs play was because there are plenty of Herion/Opiate addicts in MA). Addiction is addiction. People in Narcotics Anonymous see it that way, why can't you? The physical symptoms may change from one drug to another, but the reasons for using and the process your brain uses to justify continuing to use are pretty much exactly the same. As for your addiction rates, where are they, how were they collected? I can find a million different ways to pick apart "facts". What I was saying was my opinion, and I only said it because it pisses me off when someone trys to tell me that something is harmless when I have spent the last 4 months having people convince me its not. Outpatient groups, 12-step groups, work, family, friends. Not really sure how to completely respond to your post honestly. I agree drugs are bad. I guess where we differ is what is a drug? Well the Federal Government classifies Weed as a Schedule 1 Narcotic (not that I even agree with that). "(1) Schedule I.— (A) The drug or other substance has a high potential for abuse. (B) The drug or other substance has no currently accepted medical use in treatment in the United States. (C) There is a lack of accepted safety for use of the drug or other substance under medical supervision." Schedule 1 drugs + Show Spoiler +-gamma-Hydroxybutyric acid (GHB), which has been used as a general anaesthetic and for the treatment of narcolepsy and alcohol withdrawal with minimal side-effects [25] and controlled action but a limited safe dosage range. It was placed in Schedule I in March 2000 after widespread recreational use led to increased emergency room visits, hospitalizations, and deaths.[26] Uniquely, this drug is also listed in Schedule III for limited uses, under the trademark Xyrem;
-12-Methoxyibogamine (Ibogaine), being reported to help in Heroin and other substance addiction
-Marijuana including the Cannabis plant and its THC. Controversy exists about the placement of Marijuana in Schedule I. Like some other drugs in schedule I, there have been no reported cases of THC overdose. Main article: Removal of cannabis from Schedule I of the Controlled Substances Act.
-Heroin (Diacetylmorphine), which is used in some European countries as a potent pain reliever in terminal cancer patients, and as second option, after morphine. (It is about twice as potent, by weight, as morphine.). In the United Kingdom it is also prescribed to intravenous heroin addicts who have not responded to, or are unable to tolerate methadone substitution therapy.
-Other strong opiates and opioids used in many other countries, or even in the USA in previous decades for palliation of moderate to severe pain such as nicomorphine (Vilan), dextromoramide (Palfium), ketobemidone (Ketalgin), dihydromorphine (Paramorfan), piritramide (Dipidolor), diacetyldihydromorphine (Paralaudin), dipipanone (Wellconal), phenadoxone (Heptalgin) and many others.
-Weak opioids used for relief of moderate pain, diarrhea, and coughing such as benzylmorphine (Peronine), nicocodeine (Tusscodin), Dihydrocodeinone enol acetate, tilidine (Valoron), meptazinol (Meptid), propiram (Algeril), acetyldihydrocodeine and others.
-Pholcodine, a weak opioid cough suppressant with negligible abuse potential[citation needed] which is available over-the-counter in many other countries.
-MDMA (3,4-methylenedioxymethamphetamine, Ecstasy), which continues to be used medically, notably in the treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD). The medical community originally agreed upon placing it as a Schedule III substance, but the government denied this suggestion, despite two court rulings by the DEA's administrative law judge that placing MDMA in Schedule I was illegal. It was temporarily unscheduled after the first administrative hearing from December 22, 1987 - July 1, 1988.[27]
-Psilocybin, the active ingredient in psychedelic mushrooms;
-5-MeO-DIPT (Foxy / Foxy Methoxy / 5-methoxy-N,N-diisopropyltryptamine)
-Lysergic acid diethylamide ("LSD" / "Acid"), formerly used in psychotherapy, and the best known treatment for alcoholism to date.[28]
-Peyote, a cactus growing in nature primarily in northeastern Mexico; one of the few plants specifically scheduled, with a narrow exception to its legal status for religious use by members of the Native American Church;
-Mescaline, the main psychoactive ingredients of the peyote, san pedro, achuma, and Peruvian torch cacti;
-Methaqualone (Quaalude, Sopor, Mandrax), a sedative that was previously used for similar purposes as barbiturates, until it was rescheduled;
-2,5-dimethoxy-4-methylamphetamine (STP / DOM), a psychotropic hallucinogen that rose to prominence in 1967 in San Francisco when it appeared in pill form (known as "STP", in doses as high as four times the amounts previously considered "safe") on the black market;
-2C-T-7 (Blue Mystic / T7), a psychotropic entheogen;
-2C-B (Nexus / Bees / Venus / Bromo Mescaline), a psychotropic hallucinogen and aphrodisiac;
-Cathinone (β-ketoamphetamine), a monoamine alkaloid found in the shrub Catha edulis (Khat);
-AMT (alpha-methyltryptamine), an anti-depressant from the tryptamine family; first developed in the Soviet Union and marketed under the brand name Indopan;
-Bufotenin (5-OH-DMT), a naturally-occurring tryptamine with hallucinogenic and aphrodisiac properties; named for the Bufo genus of toads whose poison contains the chemical;[29]
-Benzylpiperazine (BZP), a synthetic drug also known as "party pills" or "herbal highs" is nearly indistinguishable from dexamphetamine and similar to MDMA. It has been shown to be associated with an increase in seizures if taken alone.[30] Although the effects of BZP are not as potent as MDMA, it can produce neuroadaptions that can cause an increase in the potential for abuse of this drug.[31] ^ Thats a fact, feel free to pick it apart in all its boldness. I don't think I ever said it was easier to get off Herion than it is MJ. I'm trying to make a point that its addictive (because thats part of the stigma attached to weed, "its harmless, and not addictive", which in turn makes it harder for people to admit it was a problem for them). And all you want to do, I guess, is call people weak (people you don't know). More stories I guess. One of my best friends is a Herion addict. He currently is not using Herion, but cannot stop smoking ganja or drinking alcohol. I'm not trying to say Herion is easier to quit, but some people do have a hard time quitting substances with "easier" withdrawls. Call them weak or whatever you want, I won't call them anything. I am fucking Proud to say I am an Addict. The more I say it and believe it, the less likely I am going to let myself go back out. Does the thought of dropping acid and taking bong rips excite me? Hell yes, but thats part of the reason why I cannot do it anymore. Anyways I feel like we are detracting from HeavOnEarths blog by discussing this here, if you want to debate me on something it might be better in a PM. (Here is a good read as well http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Removal_of_cannabis_from_Schedule_I_of_the_Controlled_Substances_Act) + Show Spoiler +On June 16 2012 18:04 farvacola wrote:Show nested quote +On June 16 2012 08:07 Wrongspeedy wrote:On June 16 2012 00:29 stk01001 wrote:On June 15 2012 21:15 Wrongspeedy wrote:Alcohol and Marijauna release Dopamine as well. Actually last time I checked Dopamine is just one of the chemicals our brains use to experience pleasure. Sex, Gambling, Drugs whatever it is, Dopamine probably plays a role. And of course when you depend on high amounts of it frequently your Hedonic Set Point is raised higher and requires more Dopamine to get the same effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopaminehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmillLast but not least. http://www.sa.org/http://saa-recovery.org/(^ One of those counts Masturbation) I am currently attending AA and MA (marijauna anonymous) meetings 7+ times a week, and they have helped me a lot (I haven't taken a mind or mood altering substance in 61 days ^_^, which is the longest I have ever gone since I started using them 8 years ago). Its just nice to know your not alone, and many many many people have experienced the same thing as you and are willing to talk about that openly and honestly. I honestly could not stop using until I started going to these groups and started to be completely honest with other people, that allowed me to be honest with myself. I was in outpatient treatment for 2 months and relapsing frequently even while being drug tested with the threat of losing my job or being recommended for inpatient. :S Now I feel pretty good and I am actually dealing with my life one problem at a time, not to mention I actually just get out and do shit. Hiking, rock climbing, trying new foods with friends, reading, biking, making music. I never had time for other people or things when all I cared about was getting high. Weed is not the most harmless shit on the planet(It is a stimulant, a depressant, and a halucinogen). Kittens, Puppies, and Babies are far less harmless. Weed will bitch slap you like non-other if you let it. I know for a fact that some meth addicts, coke addicts, and herion addicts will admit that weed was harder for them to quit. People that say its not addictive are full of shit. Some people don't have a problem with it, but that doesn't change the fact that many people do. I spent almost 300 hundred dollars a week on it and could not stop on my own, even when I wanted to. Oh and like I said at the beginning of my post, it releases dopamine, so you never really conquered dopamine abuse (after 3 days! Think about how much longer your going to be alive!). You probably will never "conquer" it, because your brain won't stop making it until you are dead (or you have a disease that stops it from producing). All you can do is know your faults and control yourself. Anyways, congrats on making positive changes in your life, not trying to be a downer on you. But I felt like I should share part of my experience. Weed made me want to die, I was angry, isolated, and depressed every day and life had no purpose except to work (so that I could afford to spend over 13k a year on Weed) and get high. And getting high was never as fun as the first time. Some people don't have problems with things like Alchohol, Weed, Sex. For other people it will literally ruin or take their lives away. I'm gonna have to strongly disagree with whoever is telling you weed is harder to quit than heroin or cocaine. I'm currently 28 years old. I've smoked weed on and off since high school. I was also an opiate addict for 4 years (oxycontin, then evetnually heroin, sniffed not intravenous) and have also been addicted to cocaine and cigarettes for stints in my life. Weed was definitely the easiest thing for me to quit, compared to the other drugs. It required little effort, there are virtually no physical withdrawal symptoms, it's almost all mental. If you told me I'd either have to quit weed or heroin cold turkey I'll take weed everytime no question. have you ever gone through opiate withdrawal? it's like hell on earth.. I would say cigarettes and opiates are probably the hardest substances to quit.. I know benzos are extremely hard too but I've never really done those (like xanex etc.) Also no offense but I personally think it's silly weed is viewed as something you need to go get help for to quit. (I always thought MA was methadone anonymous.. Marijuana anonymous??.. it's just funny for someone who's had to go through real drug withdrawal.. I mean inpatient treatment for weed? does that even exist?) Alcohol is more understandable, but both things in moderation really are relatively harmless. MODERATION.. it's key to everything. Why does everything have to be all out or nothing? I still choose to smoke weed today (I quit for 4 years) and drink alchol on weekends, and they are far less destructive than the other harder drugs (still need to be careful with alcohol). I do it in moderation, and I don't view it as something that controls me or my life, like opiates used to. I have a great job, make good money, I have motivation to work out 3-4 times a week. Really the only thing weed does is make me a little lazy and tired at times, but again it's something I could quit easily if I wanted to, all you need is a little willpower. I really don't see a need to atm since it's not effecting my life negatively. Opiates on the other hand destroyed my life, and alcohol can do the same if you drink everyday.. I just don't think marijuana should be grouped with things like heroin, cocaine.. even alcohol.. it really is not the same.. Thats a nice opinion. I didn't say all herion and coke addicts felt that way, just that I personally know some who do. Willpower has nothing to do with it. My willpower was for buying more drugs, my favorite happened to be MJ. Ciggs are harder to quit than just about anything, but people don't give a shit about them. And for you to say that MJ doesn't deserve to be in the same class as other narcotics because thats your Opinion; is just that, Your Opinion. I didn't say everyone who smokes weed will have a problem with it. I have friends who smoke an eigth every two weeks between themselves and their gf's. I smoked that in a day easy, Every Single Day. I am not saying that its impossible to use responsibly, only that its impossible for some people to use responsibly. There are plenty of people in MA who have made your Opiate abuse look like childs play, and then had a hard time quitting MJ. MJ also has withdrawl, maybe not as bad as herion or alcohol; but for me personally, not sleeping for 2 weeks, not feeling like I could eat anything, having headaches for 2 months, and in general just being pissed off all the time, count as withdrawl. Weed is a real drug. Alcohol is a drug PERIOD. You offend me when you talk about real drug withdrawls. While your at it, why don't you just tell HeavOnEarth to just keep fapping away because its not hardcore enough for you. No, just no. It is not an opinion, it is hard fact backed by addiction rates, by measures of bodily harm, by measures of societal impact. Violence rates, weapons charges, and companion illegalities are almost non-existent with marijuana, whereas with cocaine and methamphetamine they are considered standard fare. Just because quitting marijuana was difficult for you does not somehow change these things, and to then take the haughty road of claiming offense? Well, since reality is apparently dictated by anecdotal experience, here's an anecdote for you. I was a part of the central Ohio drug scene for 5 years, during which I sold drugs, lived with drug dealers, and did many drugs myself. Wow, you can smoke an eighth of weed a day, what an addict you were! I've seen kids spit into a spoon, dissolve dmt in said spit, and inject it. I've seen women acquiesce to horrible acts of multiple partner sex just so they could stave off their dope sickness with some methadone. A friend of mine once became so delusional on massive doses of Xanax that he attempted to rob a grocery store with a golf club during the middle of the night. I'm not proud of some of the things I've done and the people I've consorted with, but I do value the lessons they've taught me when it comes to what the use of mind-altering chemicals can do to the human brain."There are plenty of people in MA who have made your opiate abuse look like childs play," This is garbage straight out of a 1950's after-school special, and has no basis in any reality, not even one warped by drugs. Have you ever held someone in your arms while they went through opiate withdrawal? I will never forget the smell of her sweat, the violent shaking of her limbs, or the nonsensical pleas for dope that slurred out in between bouts of vomiting. She died a week later, after a rebound injection in a new place proved too much for her already frail person. This is where I'm gonna get even more politically incorrect. One cannot bring up addiction without discussing weakness, the two go hand in hand. I've seen kids get through medical school with a needle in their arm, and I've seen "psychonauts" flounder for years on dreams of discovering a truth that does not exist, and the difference ends up being weakness. Maybe you actually did know some people who hit rock bottom on marijuana, what I'm tlling you is that they were weak, plain and simple. If you happen to be too weak to consume psychadelic substances, then that is FINE! But stop there, because when you start to tell me that thc and diacetylmorphine have the same effect, well thats just bullshit. What? Not gonna call HeavOnEarth weak too? First off, we are all weak, its simply a question of degree. When you suggest that one can become addicted to anything, you are indeed correct, and I apologize if I gave you the impression I was arguing to the contrary. But this does not mean that all addiction is the same. Can different people rationalize their addiction in a similar manner? Yes, but generalizations of addiction is a rehabilitative strategy, meant to break down preconceived notions that can get in the way of treatment. In fact, there is an increasing amount of criticism being leveled at the "________ Anonymous" method of treatment, in that success rates pale in comparison to more individual foci. In any case, here are some drug profiles. From wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tetrahydrocannabinol"The pharmacological actions of THC result from its partial agonist activity at the cannabinoid receptor CB1, located mainly in the central nervous system, and the CB2 receptor, mainly expressed in cells of the immune system.[11] The psychoactive effects of THC are primarily mediated by its activation of CB1G-protein coupled receptors, which result in a decrease in the concentration of the second messenger molecule cAMP through inhibition of adenylate cyclase.[12] The presence of these specialized cannabinoid receptors in the brain led researchers to the discovery of endocannabinoids, such as anandamide and 2-arachidonoyl glyceride (2-AG). THC targets receptors in a manner far less selective than endocannabinoid molecules released during retrograde signaling, as the drug has a relatively low cannabinoid receptor efficacy and affinity. In populations of low cannabinoid receptor density, THC may act to antagonize endogenous agonists that possess greater receptor efficacy.[13] THC is a lipophilic molecule and may bind non-specifically to a variety of receptors in the brain and body, such as adipose tissue. For a review of the mechanisms behind endocannabinoid synaptic transmission, see the endocannabinoid system. Several studies have suggested that THC also has an anticholinesterase action[14][15] which may implicate it as a potential treatment for Alzheimer's and Myasthenia Gravis." From wikipedia http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diacetylmorphine"Both morphine and 6-MAM are μ-opioid agonists that bind to receptors present throughout the brain, spinal cord, and gut of all mammals. The μ-opioid receptor also binds endogenous opioid peptides such as β-endorphin, Leu-enkephalin, and Met-enkephalin. Repeated use of heroin results in a number of physiological changes, including an increase in the production of μ-opioid receptors (upregulation).[citation needed] These physiological alterations lead to tolerance and dependence, so that cessation of heroin use results in a set of remarkably uncomfortable symptoms including pain, anxiety, muscle spasms, and insomnia called the opioid withdrawal syndrome. Depending on usage it has an onset four to 24 hours after the last dose of heroin. Morphine also binds to δ- and κ-opioid receptors." So you see, from the very outset of use the effects of various drugs are profoundly different on the brain, and long term use/addiction effects are different in the same sense. Heroin addiction's hallmark is a remarkable increase and proliferation of μ-opioid receptors, and when one attempts to abstain from heroin use, the lack of stimulation of said receptors is what prompts the bulk of physiological/psychological effects of heroin addiction. Thc use, on the other hand, is profoundly different in terms of short and long term effects on the brain, and in fact researchers are to this day having a difficult time pinning down the entirety of the chemical's effect on the brain. What we do know is that the effects of the drug revolve around receptors CB1 and CB2 (worthy of note here is the proliferation of CB2 receptors in immune system cells, which throws everybody for a loop). In any case, the moral of the story is that different drugs/activities prompt different addictive responses. Nothing is harmless, and humans have the uncanny ability to form habits around anything. I'll leave you with this article, and although it is one amongst many, it is a fairly accurate measure of relative effects of different drugs. http://www.economist.com/blogs/dailychart/2010/11/drugs_cause_most_harm
Our brains all produce the same chemicals to experience pleasure. The dopamine kick that HeavOnEarth gets from masturbating is the same dopamine kick drug addicts get. There are other chemicals involved as well, but dopamine is probably the most famous from the pleasure center of the brain. The physical symtoms from withdrawal last a relatively short time compared to the mental ones.
That last article is really good, though I think its skewed towards the sheer number of people that are addicted to alchohol and the fact that you can straight up die from alchohol withdrawal. Its hard to say much about Marijauna addiction because its a field where there is almost no research. All research that has been done is only in the last 20 years, and most people with Marijauna addiction also tend to abuse other drugs (including alchohol).
In general I am a defensive person, but there are times when I also feel its justified to stick up for myself. I feel like in general, potheads get a bad rap. Its really easy for people to label Marijauna as harmless, but even in that article from the economist, it is clearly not labeled as harmless. Atleast if I express my opinion when someone says something I find offensive I no longer have to mull it over myself. I get to wait and see how they respond and I no longer have to worry about how people will view my opinion.
Its an addicts nature to hide, and conceal their true feelings. To put up a front that they know other people will agree with. It takes balls to stand up for yourself when you know other people won't agree or might misunderstand what your saying, but you also get to sleep a lot better at night when you do it.
I am not telling people not to smoke weed or even do other drugs (most studies show that Ciggs are more addictive than Cocaine or Herion ; P ). I am telling them it was a problem for me. I love weed, but one hit is never enough, and a few is too many. 5 months ago I would have said my favorite place on TL was the High Thread, now I cannot stand to go there more than once every two weeks (still fun to read, I am a Stoner). And I am sure as hell not about to go there to tell people to stop doing something they enjoy.
This thread is about behavioral addiction and I don't even need to justify defending myself when I feel like I am being discriminated against. But I will explain it. I live in the State that was the first State to move MJ from a Schedule I drug to a Schedule II drug (maybe the only state as well). And its fucking every where. I walk down the street and I smell it every where. I walk down the street and I get shoulder tapped for it. I go hiking and I watch people getting stoned on the trails. I see Medical Shops and Head Shops every where. And I have/had many friends in the past that told me I could not get addicted to it. But if I am open about it, maybe someone else who is feeling the same way will be a little less ashamed to admit maybe they have a problem too!
I won't defend 12 step groups. They don't need to be defended. Some of them are crap, some of them save peoples lives. I found one that I am comfortable enough saying is my new family. Nothing personal against my old family, but they weren't always the best support, and we all need to move on with our lives. I know Bill and Bob and I know their foundation of one addict helping another is what worked for me. Damnit.
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Just told my dad about everything i've been going through(he didnt know about my school hiatus, or cheating, But he did know about weed)
+ Show Spoiler [storyaboutbeingdisowned] +JK, he was really supportive and happy that i was improving myself. 
i also told him in the end i was able to figure everything out and improve myself was because of how i was raised by him and you shouldve seen his face haha . his face lit up like a christmas tree and started fiddling his hands in happiness
needless to say quitting is gonna be a breeze for me now
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On June 17 2012 07:09 HeavOnEarth wrote:Just told my dad about everything i've been going through(he didnt know about my school hiatus, or cheating, But he did know about weed) + Show Spoiler [storyaboutbeingdisowned] +JK, he was really supportive and happy that i was improving myself. i also told him in the end i was able to figure everything out and improve myself was because of how i was raised by him and you shouldve seen his face haha . his face lit up like a christmas tree and started fiddling his hands in happiness needless to say quitting is gonna be a breeze for me now
Pretty awesome to hear the good news Nam 
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congrats nam people who overcome intense shit like this generally end up very strong-willed, which is a great thing. Keep it up!
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Best of luck Nam. It's very hard to hear any vietnamese name progamer these days :D
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I'll give you fair warning and say I only read the first third of your blog because I felt like I was getting the general gist of it and wanted to respond. Don't read what I've written if you don't think that will be adequate.
I know that PMO or whatever you wanna call it is the new hip thing to be concerned about. There's been a lot of articles about it very recently and they're not very intelligently written. What I'm reading when you describe how you felt sounds like depression, and you're trying to pin it down on pornography. I won't defend pornography as a moral institution, but I will say the arguments currently being made against it with regards to dopamine are flimsy at best. The whole spiel about novelty and everything, and being like a rat in a cage that keeps pressing the 'give me cocaine' button are not well founded. You are basically using PMO as a scapegoat for your problems right now, the way alcoholics use alcoholism to describe all their problems. In the end, the people who identify themselves under these diseases suffer the most relapses and the most trouble in overcoming their addictions, because they see them as more powerful than they are. You aren't the only kid who watched porn in university, man. Most people didn't fail because of it. If you failed it's because you were dealing with a lot of other issues, such as the increased difficulty of the material (I don't care about your GPA in first year or high school...), or the fact that teachers don't keep up to date with you or know your name, and you hardly get to know anyone if you don't try really hard because you see them at most 3 hours per week.
Do you see where I'm going... Don't fall into the trap of seeing whatever this is as the source of all your problems. The issues are almost always much deeper and much more about your personality and your situation in life and how you deal with it. You could have been 'adling your brain with dopamine from porn' or you could have been running to a quiet part of the library and thinking about life the whole day not doing any work. The impact you're talking about is dramatic, where the regular release of dopamine is just a normal part of life. You see new things you get excited about them you feel happy. New food, new possessions, new sights, new people. If you were super social and getting dopamine shots from meeting new people, you would consider it a proper reward for good behaviour. The only problem with porn is that it's a total waste of time that doesn't progress your life at all. So my take home message is... You got depressed because you were wasting your time and looking back at your time and seeing you'd accomplished nothing... not because you had an overly regular dosage of dopamine. You're not a god damn monkey or rat in a cage with coke, you could have stopped looking at porn and made rational decisions about your life. Same problem with alcoholics... They think the drug controls them, but it is them making the choice each time, just out of habit.
tl;dr: I guess if I could sum it up, my main problem with the whole porn and dopamine addiction thing is that you could apply 'dopamine addiction' to just about any unproductive hobby. Stop listening to music because your brain is getting addicted to it by releasing dopamine!!' ... Give me a break. I guess they argue it's more powerful with porn, but I am not convinced. Many people listen to music daily their whole lives! now that's addiction ;p
With your current rationalizations, one day you're gonna be like 'man today was really hard, I could really use a dose of dopamine' and just look at porn 'this one time' because you'll think if you control your production of dopamine it's not as bad. That's the way it is with alcoholics, and then after they've done it they remember the part of about 'addiction' they read, and think they're helpless to stop, think about it way too much, and just fall back into a bad habit. I have seen it so many times... Your rationalization should be 'man I waste a lot of time on this, I should stop and do something productive' not 'this is an evil drug controlling me!!'
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@chef, i barely identify with many people(ie nearly everyone on reddit) who blame PMO for all their problems. i think they are weak willed and have several other issues in their life to address and yes they are using PMO not as a problem, but a solution to all their shortcomings.
That said, read the rest of my blog, and possibly the comments i've made throughout this thread if you get the chance.
i am not one of those idiots on reddit that relapse after seeing anything slightly provocative- they need more help in other areas.
I don't know the specifics of how i overcame my depression-esque symptoms if what i've written isn't true. But what i can definitely tell u was, quitting PMO was the first step, or at least a very important one. I attribute it as a test of willpower rather than dopamine abuse at this point, but i still feel my story is fairly accurate and not as logically fallacious as you've stated
Also, i have not come even close to relapsing thus far(altho i guess i covered that bit earlier unknowingly if u read the blog it would be more clear). Lifes been eZ and great without it and i feel MUCH stronger mentally.
;edit;
But yeah actually no you're completely wrong. I just sat down for 30 minutes contemplating if everything u said was true.
How do u explain my sudden increase in willpower, if i could quantify it it would be nearly 100 times stronger than i previously had it.
How do u explain that i ENJOY life more , and that i can FEEL my senses more, i could barely taste food, barely felt pain when i worked out, my eyesight has literally improved for the first time in years and its been slowly declining every visit to the eye doctor.
how do u explain me resolving my extreme social anxiety, out of nowhere , when i used to be too anxious to even speak to my own father, mother, sister.
you're wrong about me, and i don't appreciate the judgment since you've only read 1/3 of my blog.
That said, Im still thankful for the advice nonetheless and you're a good person to take time out of your day to tell me what you've seen and i have the utmost respect for that.
Now i've read somewhere that quitting at first, for a week, gives u this adderal-esque efect that fades away. WHICH could potentially change my mind about everything i've just written, and accept your logic. in which case ill glady eat my words and .. do everything ive been doing this far anyways(im just trying to improve myself in anyway, not pin all my troubles on PMO). But until THIS newfound strength that i have dissipates , ill believe otherwise
For example, a few of my new hobbies include meditating, and browsing the self-improvement section on StumbleUpon
;edit2;
hmm i just realized that everything ive listed can be attributed to depression, and the whole senses thing could be attributed to weed. One of my favorite hobbies when i was doing poorly was to just randomly hide where there was no other people, sometimes to just rub one out but mostly to just get away from everything
ill have to think this out some more, but still its like PMO or depression wtF u wanna call it doesnt matter. ill overcome it all. But yeah, i'll be super wary of falling into the same trap you've seen other people fall into. I appreciate the advice a lot, thanks.
u da man , chef
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On June 16 2012 00:29 stk01001 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 15 2012 21:15 Wrongspeedy wrote:Alcohol and Marijauna release Dopamine as well. Actually last time I checked Dopamine is just one of the chemicals our brains use to experience pleasure. Sex, Gambling, Drugs whatever it is, Dopamine probably plays a role. And of course when you depend on high amounts of it frequently your Hedonic Set Point is raised higher and requires more Dopamine to get the same effect. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dopaminehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hedonic_treadmillLast but not least. http://www.sa.org/http://saa-recovery.org/(^ One of those counts Masturbation) I am currently attending AA and MA (marijauna anonymous) meetings 7+ times a week, and they have helped me a lot (I haven't taken a mind or mood altering substance in 61 days ^_^, which is the longest I have ever gone since I started using them 8 years ago). Its just nice to know your not alone, and many many many people have experienced the same thing as you and are willing to talk about that openly and honestly. I honestly could not stop using until I started going to these groups and started to be completely honest with other people, that allowed me to be honest with myself. I was in outpatient treatment for 2 months and relapsing frequently even while being drug tested with the threat of losing my job or being recommended for inpatient. :S Now I feel pretty good and I am actually dealing with my life one problem at a time, not to mention I actually just get out and do shit. Hiking, rock climbing, trying new foods with friends, reading, biking, making music. I never had time for other people or things when all I cared about was getting high. Weed is not the most harmless shit on the planet(It is a stimulant, a depressant, and a halucinogen). Kittens, Puppies, and Babies are far less harmless. Weed will bitch slap you like non-other if you let it. I know for a fact that some meth addicts, coke addicts, and herion addicts will admit that weed was harder for them to quit. People that say its not addictive are full of shit. Some people don't have a problem with it, but that doesn't change the fact that many people do. I spent almost 300 hundred dollars a week on it and could not stop on my own, even when I wanted to. Oh and like I said at the beginning of my post, it releases dopamine, so you never really conquered dopamine abuse (after 3 days! Think about how much longer your going to be alive!). You probably will never "conquer" it, because your brain won't stop making it until you are dead (or you have a disease that stops it from producing). All you can do is know your faults and control yourself. Anyways, congrats on making positive changes in your life, not trying to be a downer on you. But I felt like I should share part of my experience. Weed made me want to die, I was angry, isolated, and depressed every day and life had no purpose except to work (so that I could afford to spend over 13k a year on Weed) and get high. And getting high was never as fun as the first time. Some people don't have problems with things like Alchohol, Weed, Sex. For other people it will literally ruin or take their lives away. I'm gonna have to strongly disagree with whoever is telling you weed is harder to quit than heroin or cocaine. I'm currently 28 years old. I've smoked weed on and off since high school. I was also an opiate addict for 4 years (oxycontin, then evetnually heroin, sniffed not intravenous) and have also been addicted to cocaine and cigarettes for stints in my life. Weed was definitely the easiest thing for me to quit, compared to the other drugs. It required little effort, there are virtually no physical withdrawal symptoms, it's almost all mental. If you told me I'd either have to quit weed or heroin cold turkey I'll take weed everytime no question. have you ever gone through opiate withdrawal? it's like hell on earth.. I would say cigarettes and opiates are probably the hardest substances to quit.. I know benzos are extremely hard too but I've never really done those (like xanex etc.) Also no offense but I personally think it's silly weed is viewed as something you need to go get help for to quit. (I always thought MA was methadone anonymous.. Marijuana anonymous??.. it's just funny for someone who's had to go through real drug withdrawal.. I mean inpatient treatment for weed? does that even exist?) Alcohol is more understandable, but both things in moderation really are relatively harmless. MODERATION.. it's key to everything. Why does everything have to be all out or nothing? I still choose to smoke weed today (I quit for 4 years) and drink alchol on weekends, and they are far less destructive than the other harder drugs (still need to be careful with alcohol). I do it in moderation, and I don't view it as something that controls me or my life, like opiates used to. I have a great job, make good money, I have motivation to work out 3-4 times a week. Really the only thing weed does is make me a little lazy and tired at times, but again it's something I could quit easily if I wanted to, all you need is a little willpower. I really don't see a need to atm since it's not effecting my life negatively. Opiates on the other hand destroyed my life, and alcohol can do the same if you drink everyday.. I just don't think marijuana should be grouped with things like heroin, cocaine.. even alcohol.. it really is not the same..
Some people think its weak that you'd get addicted to opiates. Just because you had an easier time quitting weed than other people doesn't mean you need to look down on those that need help.
You, especially you, as a recovered addict, should know that behavior is disgusting.
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Interesting read, I'd never even considered such a thing before. It kind of reminded me of how World of Warcraft made me feel for the 3 months I played it. I was just a zombine hanging out at work or with my fiance until I could log back in. All the best.
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@Chef
You've made a well thought out post and some good points, but I feel the need to comment on the specific issue at hand (pmo).
Yes it's true that the words "dopamine" and "novelty" are thrown around too much in a non-scientific way. However, it is a fact that pmo can be a very powerful addiction (and so can internet addiction and drinking and gambling among many other things). In fact I would say that it's relatively easier to get addicted to pmo because it provides an extremely convenient way to get a very good feeling when other things are not working out.
I don't care for flimsy science or pseudoscience, but it's a fact that people can become addicted to things, that pmo is increasing one of those things, and that addiction can have very negative consequences.
Moreover, it is definitely true that quitting an addiction wont be a miracle producing thing that cures all of one's woes. However, that doesn't mean it's not a very crucial step.
Perhaps you are a well-adjusted individual who functions well in society. In that case, you might not be able to understand the effects of serious addiction.
I am addicted to pmo as well, although not to the same extent as the OP. In fact, I would venture to say that it's my only real addiction. I am not a wreck at life and have had successes in various areas. However, upon quitting I have noticed truly significant changes, and cannot attribute them to any other significant lifestyle change such as the OP (who also quit weed). I have felt stronger emotions, memories and things that have been dulled for years somehow coming back. I have more vivid dreams and wake up refreshed on a consistent basis for the first time in years, with less sleep too. The dull brain fog I used to feel a lot of the time has significantly diminished. I feel more motivation and my ability to concentrate has increased.
In addiction, I have faced withdrawal symptoms such as severe mood swings or irritability at times.
I am not a scientist and will not pretend to understand all the biology and psychology underlying my experiences. However, I do know that it's not a simple matter of "feeling guilty about wasting time." When I used to do pmo I never felt guilt, I still got my shit done despite procrastinating a bit more than I should. It's not just a psychological change, it's a physical change that occurs due to a dramatic shift in lifestyle (denying your addiction).
The modern train of thought on porn and masturbation seems to be a strong reaction to the history of religious guilt and supression around it. Nowadays, whenever one recommends limiting pmo they have to preface it with: "Disclaimer: I'm not religious or saying this on moral grounds!"
Nowadays, people generally just get the impression that jacking off as much as possible or watching porn is fine. It's just a natural way to deal with your sexuality. To me that's like saying to an obese person that he can eat as much as he wants because it's just a response to his natural urge to eat.
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good luck man. i'm struggling with my own addictions and breaking the mold of escapism is one of the hardest things i've ever had to do.
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I will like to revise , everything in the blog is still true, but it wasnt completely because of dopamine abuse.
It was depression- actually still not entirely sure what brought it on but PMO definitely contributed
he other big problem with porn of course is the intense sense of internal inconsistency it gives you. What they call 'cognitive dissoance' in that maybe you have feminist values, but you get off to something that is really abusive. That is a fast track to stress, depression and helplessness.
Anyways, as i slowly as i got good at guitar(was able to play songs ive dreamed of playing for ages), came back home and was around my family( i missed them a lot, and i was distant from them since my teenage years of rebelZZ), enjoyed IPLs and MLGs because of progaming, so on so forth.
chef: What'll make you feel good is when you start looking back at how you spent your time and being ok with it
this is entirely true. i was a little depressed progamer, until it brought me lots of friends , even money, and people actually gave me respect and adoration when i said i was a progamer? Shit definitely lifted me up. But not for the reasons i said in my blog
Of course im no fool, i had 100% had a problem with PMO and weed and i'll avoid them at all costs, and honestly who needs it. I'll drink every now n then at partys and mlgs so forth, but life is better without it.
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I've figured out the reason i suffered depression. When i was in my academy in high school, one of my best friends was involved in a hacking scandal. He changed grades, etc, and eventually the school was required to bring in private detectives to investigate. Being one of his closest friends, naturally i knew everything, and he had even changed some of my grades without me knowing, or at least i just thought he was kidding when he asked me. Nonetheless, i was sent to CAEP(not expelled like he was) for withholding information, and since i was already on academic probation for all the fights i used to get into(my school was like 95% niggers, aside from the academy and they pissed me the fuck off from time to time, id like to add i have a lot of respect for black people, and the ones i've met in university are some of the most hard working and intelligent, book AND street smart individuals i've come across)
Anyways, my academy kicked me out because of the violation i made while already on probation, and i was forced to attend my other high school.
I lost contact with very important friends to me, self esteem, not to mention to reason i got fucked was because OF ME, i TRUSTED the private detective who MANIPULATED me and then tossed me aside like a cheap rag doll. Being a little happy trusting asian that i was, this SHATTERED not only my self esteem , because i handled the situation so poorly, but also my faith and trust in humans.
Letting go of the past was more important to me then i realized. I asked my mom what she thought and she explained, that they just had to make an example out of me, so that NO ONE would try something that this again. I was extremely unfortunate but of course i made the right move in trusting and being honest, because i had done nothing wrong.
Im still extremely skeptical , and i feel its GOOD to be, but at least i don't despise the human race or something like that, haha.
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Ohai Ezpz. I wondered where you disappeared to after TL A Team broke up. Saw you on the MLG Player List a few times but that was it.
Get well soon, kk? <3
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Nam! We found a cure! You aren't struggling with PMO, you have caught the Victski! It is a combination of the Binski and Victor disease. Fortunately, we can cure the binski (lazy, unmotivated), but we cannot cure the Victor (rage quitting, PMS). Contact me ASAP for more information.
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I'll find a cure for the Victor Q_Q!
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You think masterbaition was the cause of all your problems?
Lmao what is this I dont even....
Did you ever fap beforehand or did you just start when you were in college or something? Porn addictions are real but this sounds like bro science bullshit.
Hey guys I noticed I feel good whenever I eat food and drink water, is this EFS (eat food syndrome)? I think it's causing too much dopamine to be released which is probably why I'm failing in school and why my life sucks so much. Are there any subreddits where people feel the same way? This is a serious problem and I really need a support group guys.
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Do you have one arm that is extremely ripped now or do you switch arms often?
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EPT
