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I. Preface:
Try to keep an open mind in considering the theorycrafting presented here regarding design of units. This proposal is not claiming to be a magic bullet solution that erases all worries, there inevitably will be flaws, and there are certainly other elements of SC2 design that limit its innate potential for micro and other such instances of skill-based or entertaining play. Yet, any improvement, however little, would serve to benefit the game we all love (or want to love). At the same time, let's be clear- Blizzard won't just replace the colossus with the reaver. As appealing as it is sentimentally to think of the ideal SC2 as a BW made with better graphics, from a broader perspective, Blizzard needs to introduce new elements to make the sequel fresh in its own way.
II. Idea:
Now, most people would be in agreement that SC2 has some design flaws that make certain aspects of its gameplay boring, and one of the clearest examples of that is the colossi. I will admit that this is an idea inspired by a reddit post - the viking having the ability to "loop a cord" around the colossi in order to bring it down (credit to PSTwo):
![[image loading]](http://i754.photobucket.com/albums/xx189/broncosfan1125/VikingTowCable.png)
III. Implementation
The function would be pretty simple: vikings would have the ability to eject the cord, which leaves a cord in that viking's movement path, and once the viking moves and returns to the originating point of the cord where it began the ability, a colossi caught within that shape would be brought down/killed. Of course, such an ability would have a timed limit to prevent excessive cords reaching halfway through the map and whatnot, while still having a long enough duration so that the circle did not have to be ridiculously precise to the point of futility (especially for a moving colossi).
IV. Effect
It seems to me that such a change would produce a particularly fascinating game dynamic that would be much like the BW scourge-vessel dynamic in terms of aerial unit control; players would attempt to control vikings in order to loop colossi, while avoiding fire and targeting from stalkers. At the same time, such an ability would be its own unique form that, in my memory, has not been replicated in any prior RTS.
Another implication is that Terran players might need less vikings to counter colossi - in this sense, it would mitigate the rather annoying "niche units" effect of SC2, where a quick tech-switch could result in an auto-loss if a high viking count isn't prepared for a switch to colossi. This could also mitigate some of the problems with late game TvP (though not resolving it entirely). QXC made a good comment about late game TvP here: http://www.complexitygaming.com/forums/entry.php?b=2019
Essentially, a lower viking account allows the Terran to have a higher army food count in terms of the main fighting bio, and combined with the possible scv sacrificing in late-game it could possibly make up for the food-remaxing advantage.
And yes, it's an idea "copied" from Star Wars. A lot of ideas borrow from each other in fiction and in video games (the laser-emitting tripod idea of the Colossi itself is an obvious example).
V. Further Questions
A. What about changes for the Colossi itself? It's still boring...
I recall an earlier suggestion that the attack cooldown be increased, with the loss in dps supplemented by an appropriate increase in damage.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=201316
To me, this proposal makes sense: it allows reaver-like harass with the one-shotting of workers, allowing quick micro-tricks like quick drop-pickup, and it also forces the player to treat every colossi as more important, making players place greater emphasis on the control of colossi to maximize damage by specifically targeting central clumps of weak units, rather than aimlessly a-moving them. I'm not quite sure why discussion on this issue was dropped (probably because of other more pressing issues going on with balance at the time). Although it's important to note that I disagree with the change of colossi movement speed to be extra-slow: that functionally reduces it to the reaver, and would also be problematic for the colossi in ZvP.
B: Should vikings still be able to shoot colossi?
In my mind, yes. This would maintain the status quo option of vikings, while offering an alternative use of them that would be more micro-intensive. Plus, alteration of the air-targeting status of colossi would disturb its role in ZvP versus corrupters.
C: Would multiple colossi be brought down if caught in a single viking's loop?
This one's a tricky question. It seems more logical that all colossi caught in the loop would be brought down (and there would be questions of "priority" and animation if only one were to fall). To counteract the possible imbalance of a single viking killing all the colossi, the loop/ability would of course be much more limited in the size of loop possible. Also, this would force protoss players to have greater control of their colossi to avoid clumping them, which could be another control and micro-benefit to such a change.
D: But this is so imbalanced!
Not necessarily. Vikings have a speed of 2.75, Colossi have a speed of 2.25. It wouldn't be as simple as queuing a series of move-commands to the vikings to loop the colossi because the protoss player would simply have to move the colossi to get out of the circle. Basic math: the circumference of a circle (the path of the viking) is a little above 6x the length of the radius (path of colossi in escaping). Also, remember that this loop is only a temporarily activated ability that forces the viking to be much closer to the colossi than usual, which makes it vulnerable to fire from the ground army of stalkers/archons.
While the colossi are at risk, remember that the vikings are at risk, too, so if the terran player spends all their vikings trying to loop but gets shut down by proper micro/fire from the protoss colossi/stalkers, then the terran player is in a dangerous situation without any vikings to shoot down the colossi.
VI. Ending Notes
Now, I'm sure there are plenty of readers here that are skeptical, thinking that the above proposed idea is silly, impractical, or downright stupid. If you have legitimate criticism, feel free to air it. Of course, there will be many questions and issues to still resolve. But remember, part of that is the benefit of blogging it here - to collaborate and brainstorm together, because, ultimately, new and interesting design is going to have to come from a mix of creativity and analysis, in which the pooled efforts of this community could be a key instrument. Please share your thoughts!
[Edit]: not sure if the idea was rigorous/serious enough to be placed in the SC2 general section, which is why I decided to play it safe with the blogs section.
 
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hold up, so instead of seeing armies dance around each other as each side tries to figure out how to engage, testing the waters and finally engaging we jsut see a viking fly a circle around something 3 times its cost and it goes down?
in that case can i have my zergling run around an immortal and make it go away?
seems like this idea doesnt at all help at all balance the game or jsut make it more interesting its just a terran archon toilet it doesnt make micro wars happen it just means instead of creating 10 vikings to counter collosus you make 3 andjust fly a couple loops it would only make toss not make collosus inTvZ because one unit can one shot it
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It's a good thing that Jedi don't exist in SC2 and don't play SC2 in real life.
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I'm sorry, is this a joke?
Honestly not sure.
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The only compromise would be that Terran has a "shield battery" and when the collosi destroy it, the Terran automatically loses :D
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can zealots cut the rope with their lightsab..i mean psi blades?
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On May 05 2012 17:39 Shock710 wrote:
can zealots cut the rope with their lightsab..i mean psi blades?
rofl!
@ op. no dude. just no. if you were trying to troll it didn't work out. if you were serious. I don't even know what to say.
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On May 05 2012 16:29 Forikorder wrote:
hold up, so instead of seeing armies dance around each other as each side tries to figure out how to engage, testing the waters and finally engaging we jsut see a viking fly a circle around something 3 times its cost and it goes down?
in that case can i have my zergling run around an immortal and make it go away?
seems like this idea doesnt at all help at all balance the game or jsut make it more interesting its just a terran archon toilet it doesnt make micro wars happen it just means instead of creating 10 vikings to counter collosus you make 3 andjust fly a couple loops it would only make toss not make collosus inTvZ because one unit can one shot it
What, you actually think death ball vs. death ball is interesting?
It wouldn't be easy to pull this move off.
It's not a permanent ability, it has to be activated temporarily, and the relatively short duration of the ability would make the window for moving around the unit would be low. That, plus the limited nature of the loop would force the viking to be close to the colossi to be successful, which would make it even easier for the protoss ground army to target the vikings before it finishes the loop.
While the responses weren't unexpected, it's a shame that people are too shallow-minded to see beyond "hurr durr that looks silly you dumb" like a bunch of eight year olds. The double-standard is of course the greatest, when people readily accept transformer-terran-bots in the viking/hellion and the "viper" aka flying barnacle from half-life.
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On May 06 2012 01:28 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 16:29 Forikorder wrote:
hold up, so instead of seeing armies dance around each other as each side tries to figure out how to engage, testing the waters and finally engaging we jsut see a viking fly a circle around something 3 times its cost and it goes down?
in that case can i have my zergling run around an immortal and make it go away?
seems like this idea doesnt at all help at all balance the game or jsut make it more interesting its just a terran archon toilet it doesnt make micro wars happen it just means instead of creating 10 vikings to counter collosus you make 3 andjust fly a couple loops it would only make toss not make collosus inTvZ because one unit can one shot it What, you actually think death ball vs. death ball is interesting? It wouldn't be easy to pull this move off. It's not a permanent ability, it has to be activated temporarily, and the relatively short duration of the ability would make the window for moving around the unit would be low. That, plus the limited nature of the loop would force the viking to be close to the colossi to be successful, which would make it even easier for the protoss ground army to target the vikings before it finishes the loop. While the responses weren't unexpected, it's a shame that people are too shallow-minded to see beyond "hurr durr that looks silly you dumb" like a bunch of eight year olds. The double-standard is of course the greatest, when people readily accept transformer-terran-bots in the viking/hellion and the "viper" aka flying barnacle from half-life.
it would either be easy enough that any progamer would be able to do it with there eyes closed, or har enough that its not worth doing
and yes, the game is interesting it is interesting to see players posture with there army dancing around each other, at least alot more interesting then seeing a viking one shot a collosus then watch the toss army get bowled over
make 4 or 5 vikings, que up a quick circle around the enemy collosus, watch them die 10 times faster then normally then bowl over the toss because they spent a ton of resources on units that got 3 attacks off before getting one shot
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On May 06 2012 01:31 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 01:28 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On May 05 2012 16:29 Forikorder wrote:
hold up, so instead of seeing armies dance around each other as each side tries to figure out how to engage, testing the waters and finally engaging we jsut see a viking fly a circle around something 3 times its cost and it goes down?
in that case can i have my zergling run around an immortal and make it go away?
seems like this idea doesnt at all help at all balance the game or jsut make it more interesting its just a terran archon toilet it doesnt make micro wars happen it just means instead of creating 10 vikings to counter collosus you make 3 andjust fly a couple loops it would only make toss not make collosus inTvZ because one unit can one shot it What, you actually think death ball vs. death ball is interesting? It wouldn't be easy to pull this move off. It's not a permanent ability, it has to be activated temporarily, and the relatively short duration of the ability would make the window for moving around the unit would be low. That, plus the limited nature of the loop would force the viking to be close to the colossi to be successful, which would make it even easier for the protoss ground army to target the vikings before it finishes the loop. While the responses weren't unexpected, it's a shame that people are too shallow-minded to see beyond "hurr durr that looks silly you dumb" like a bunch of eight year olds. The double-standard is of course the greatest, when people readily accept transformer-terran-bots in the viking/hellion and the "viper" aka flying barnacle from half-life. it would either be easy enough that any progamer would be able to do it with there eyes closed, or har enough that its not worth doing and yes, the game is interesting it is interesting to see players posture with there army dancing around each other, at least alot more interesting then seeing a viking one shot a collosus then watch the toss army get bowled over make 4 or 5 vikings, que up a quick circle around the enemy collosus, watch them die 10 times faster then normally then bowl over the toss because they spent a ton of resources on units that got 3 attacks off before getting one shot
You forgot one obvious fact: protoss players would move the colossi out of the circle before it completes. Unless, of course, you're complaining that it's too hard for protoss players to suddenly actually have to micro units in a deathball, lol.
And seriously, "armies dancing around each other" translates to people not engaging with their armies and running back and forth. That doesn't provide any visual display of skill, and the final engagement is just some mental calibration of "okay, this is a cool spot for me to engage" which is an entirely mental process and not one displaying any physical manifestation of control seen in Brood War. You're probably one of the people that thought that the hour+ game of Rain vs. Boxer was grossly engaging, when really, it was a snooze-fest that ended in a peak series of explosions.
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On May 06 2012 01:32 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 01:31 Forikorder wrote:On May 06 2012 01:28 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On May 05 2012 16:29 Forikorder wrote:
hold up, so instead of seeing armies dance around each other as each side tries to figure out how to engage, testing the waters and finally engaging we jsut see a viking fly a circle around something 3 times its cost and it goes down?
in that case can i have my zergling run around an immortal and make it go away?
seems like this idea doesnt at all help at all balance the game or jsut make it more interesting its just a terran archon toilet it doesnt make micro wars happen it just means instead of creating 10 vikings to counter collosus you make 3 andjust fly a couple loops it would only make toss not make collosus inTvZ because one unit can one shot it What, you actually think death ball vs. death ball is interesting? It wouldn't be easy to pull this move off. It's not a permanent ability, it has to be activated temporarily, and the relatively short duration of the ability would make the window for moving around the unit would be low. That, plus the limited nature of the loop would force the viking to be close to the colossi to be successful, which would make it even easier for the protoss ground army to target the vikings before it finishes the loop. While the responses weren't unexpected, it's a shame that people are too shallow-minded to see beyond "hurr durr that looks silly you dumb" like a bunch of eight year olds. The double-standard is of course the greatest, when people readily accept transformer-terran-bots in the viking/hellion and the "viper" aka flying barnacle from half-life. it would either be easy enough that any progamer would be able to do it with there eyes closed, or har enough that its not worth doing and yes, the game is interesting it is interesting to see players posture with there army dancing around each other, at least alot more interesting then seeing a viking one shot a collosus then watch the toss army get bowled over make 4 or 5 vikings, que up a quick circle around the enemy collosus, watch them die 10 times faster then normally then bowl over the toss because they spent a ton of resources on units that got 3 attacks off before getting one shot You forgot one obvious fact: protoss players would move the colossi out of the circle before it completes. Unless, of course, you're complaining that it's too hard for protoss players to suddenly actually have to micro units in a deathball, lol.
now, im no math major but im pretty sure vikings are ALOT faster then collosus
and either way its a win win for terran either the collosus are too busy dodging the vikings that dont actually need to be microd (jsut que up a circle and go back to microing your bioball) that they cant engage the actual fight
i jsut cant comprehend how you think giving a unit the ability to one shot something far more expensive then it could possible be a good idea
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On May 06 2012 01:35 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 01:32 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On May 06 2012 01:31 Forikorder wrote:On May 06 2012 01:28 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:On May 05 2012 16:29 Forikorder wrote:
hold up, so instead of seeing armies dance around each other as each side tries to figure out how to engage, testing the waters and finally engaging we jsut see a viking fly a circle around something 3 times its cost and it goes down?
in that case can i have my zergling run around an immortal and make it go away?
seems like this idea doesnt at all help at all balance the game or jsut make it more interesting its just a terran archon toilet it doesnt make micro wars happen it just means instead of creating 10 vikings to counter collosus you make 3 andjust fly a couple loops it would only make toss not make collosus inTvZ because one unit can one shot it What, you actually think death ball vs. death ball is interesting? It wouldn't be easy to pull this move off. It's not a permanent ability, it has to be activated temporarily, and the relatively short duration of the ability would make the window for moving around the unit would be low. That, plus the limited nature of the loop would force the viking to be close to the colossi to be successful, which would make it even easier for the protoss ground army to target the vikings before it finishes the loop. While the responses weren't unexpected, it's a shame that people are too shallow-minded to see beyond "hurr durr that looks silly you dumb" like a bunch of eight year olds. The double-standard is of course the greatest, when people readily accept transformer-terran-bots in the viking/hellion and the "viper" aka flying barnacle from half-life. it would either be easy enough that any progamer would be able to do it with there eyes closed, or har enough that its not worth doing and yes, the game is interesting it is interesting to see players posture with there army dancing around each other, at least alot more interesting then seeing a viking one shot a collosus then watch the toss army get bowled over make 4 or 5 vikings, que up a quick circle around the enemy collosus, watch them die 10 times faster then normally then bowl over the toss because they spent a ton of resources on units that got 3 attacks off before getting one shot You forgot one obvious fact: protoss players would move the colossi out of the circle before it completes. Unless, of course, you're complaining that it's too hard for protoss players to suddenly actually have to micro units in a deathball, lol. now, im no math major but im pretty sure vikings are ALOT faster then collosus
Even if you're no math major, basic knowledge would inform you that the circumference of a circle, 2r(pi) [the length of the loop the viking would have to accomplish] would be a little above 6x the length of the radius [the distance the colossi would have to go to escape the loop]. Vikings are not 6x faster than colossi.
and either way its a win win for terran either the collosus are too busy dodging the vikings that dont actually need to be microd (jsut que up a circle and go back to microing your bioball) that they cant engage the actual fight
Again, queuing circles would never work because that assumes that colossi would be static, not a single colossi would be caught if the protoss just stutter-steps the colossi once. Lo and behold, there are ways to move colossi and have them fight at the same time, plus, again, protoss players would target vikings with stalkers (which is already a frequent manuever in PvT).
i jsut cant comprehend how you think giving a unit the ability to one shot something far more expensive then it could possible be a good idea
Heard of this little guy?
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Even if you're no math major, basic knowledge would inform you that the circumference of a circle, 2r(pi) [the length of the loop the viking would have to accomplish] would be a little above 6x the length of the radius [the distance the colossi would have to go to escape the loop]. Vikings are not 6x faster than colossi.
if the circle has to be that tight then as you say itd be impossible to ever pull it off so noone would ever be able to pull it off
Heard of this little guy?
ya they didnt one shot and died after attacking, with your idea it would be possible for one viking to one shot infinity collosus in a row at lower levels of paly
also BW was a vastly different game
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Holy hell what in the world did I just read
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On May 06 2012 02:06 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +Even if you're no math major, basic knowledge would inform you that the circumference of a circle, 2r(pi) [the length of the loop the viking would have to accomplish] would be a little above 6x the length of the radius [the distance the colossi would have to go to escape the loop]. Vikings are not 6x faster than colossi. if the circle has to be that tight then as you say itd be impossible to ever pull it off so noone would ever be able to pull it off
Now you are flip-flopping and contradicting your previous opinion. This is the problem when people don't read the full OP and just rush to make judgments. That's the key point, it has to be a balance between being too difficult to pull off and too easy to pull off. Either way, you're not questioning the merits of the idea anymore, and merely questioning how to best implement the idea, in which case your initially dismissive attitude is out of place.
In terms of implementing it, it would probably be better to err on the side of making it more difficult to pull off. There is absolutely zero risk of harm, since the ordinary viking role would be maintained, and the status quo could easily remain - if it was too difficult, players would simply not do it. But, at a certain point, player skill may rise to the point where mechanical skill could overcome that difficulty, and mechanical skill likewise on the protoss part could further resist these attempts, increasing the overall skill ceiling for both.
ya they didnt one shot and died after attacking, with your idea it would be possible for one viking to one shot infinity collosus in a row at lower levels of paly
While this mechanism obviously doesn't make it the exact equivalent of the scourge, it does play a very similar function: the viking is put at risk when attempting to pull off the maneuver, and suicide/death is a high chance given the fact that it has to approach the colossi at a closer range where there undoubtedly will be stalkers underneath.
Also, this "lower levels of play" assertion is unwarranted. If anything, it would be harder for lower level players to accomplish because of the difficulty in microing the viking while simultaneously managing their bio army, plus the fact that they would probably just lose the viking to stalker fire without the control of a higher level player.
also BW was a vastly different game
This is an illogical claim in so many ways. A: there's no listed "difference" that is relevant to the above conversation. B: most people would agree, and also add that this is a bad difference, that BW was different because it required more control and more micro over death-ball wars, which would be a reason to support the proposed change. C: you are attempting to cop-out rather than offering any constructive alternative.
On May 06 2012 02:22 theBALLS wrote:
Holy hell what in the world did I just read
Something that your small, narrow-minded view couldn't comprehend, apparently.
On May 05 2012 18:36 eu.exodus wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 17:39 Shock710 wrote:
can zealots cut the rope with their lightsab..i mean psi blades? rofl! @ op. no dude. just no. if you were trying to troll it didn't work out. if you were serious. I don't even know what to say.
Like I said, air any legitimate criticism. Snide one-liners without substance, however, are pointless and reflect poorly on your part.
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Now you are flip-flopping and contradicting your previous opinion. This is the problem when people don't read the full OP and just rush to make judgments. That's the key point, it has to be a balance between being too difficult to pull off and too easy to pull off. Either way, you're not questioning the merits of the idea anymore, and merely questioning how to best implement the idea, in which case your initially dismissive attitude is out of place.
i already adressed that, there is no middle ground itll either be easy enough for progamers to just breeze through the circle or it would take more effort then its worth when thy need to be microing there bio ball and macroing
While this mechanism obviously doesn't make it the exact equivalent of the scourge, it does play a very similar function: the viking is put at risk when attempting to pull off the maneuver, and suicide/death is a high chance given the fact that it has to approach the colossi at a closer range where there undoubtedly will be stalkers underneath.
in alpha the phoenixs had an ability called overload thats alot like what your idea is about, basically it made the phoenixs unable to do anything for a short time and in return they get one big burst attack that hits every air unit around it with the idea of you could use overload to attack mass mutas but if you missed then your phoenixs were sitting ducks
then they realised people could simply stagger the overloads and essentially make small number of phoenixs able to take on infinity mutalisks
why i think this is similar becuase your idea is like that its an idea that makes sense on paper (for you only) but theres no way to implement it if terran keep playing the exact same way they are right now, except when the engagement finally happens they only have to fly one single viking forward and activate the ability and the toss has to micro the collosus back or it gets killed then the terran can use less vikings then he would normally because the protoss has to keep constantly dancing around with the collosus so all the money they sank into getting the collosus out becomes practically worthless as a result a terrans bioball right there becomes hugely more effecient because they dont have to cahnge there strategy at all but the toss has to drastically change his
This is an illogical claim in so many ways. A: there's no listed "difference" that is relevant to the above conversation. B: most people would agree, and also add that this is a bad difference, that BW was different because it required more control and more micro over death-ball wars, which would be a reason to support the proposed change. C: you are attempting to cop-out rather than offering any constructive alternative.
there is no need for a constructive alternative the game is fine as it is now with maybe a couple balance tweaks here and there
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On May 06 2012 03:53 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +Now you are flip-flopping and contradicting your previous opinion. This is the problem when people don't read the full OP and just rush to make judgments. That's the key point, it has to be a balance between being too difficult to pull off and too easy to pull off. Either way, you're not questioning the merits of the idea anymore, and merely questioning how to best implement the idea, in which case your initially dismissive attitude is out of place. i already adressed that, there is no middle ground itll either be easy enough for progamers to just breeze through the circle or it would take more effort then its worth when thy need to be microing there bio ball and macroing
You might've missed it because it was an edited part to further elaborate, but I explained that it would be better to err on the side of difficulty. If it's too much effort to bother, that's fine - there would absolutely no down-side to this change, no negative repercussions. However, it would raise the skill ceiling, in that someone (say, a current BW pro transitioning) could feasibly overcome that difficulty by simply multitasking and controlling better.
Now, you might then claim that it becomes impossible for a protoss player when said better-skill mechanic is reached - but quite the contrary, since the protoss can likewise respond to this tactic by his own tools of control (stutter-stepping colossi away, not clumping colossi, targeting with stalkers).
in alpha the phoenixs had an ability called overload thats alot like what your idea is about, basically it made the phoenixs unable to do anything for a short time and in return they get one big burst attack that hits every air unit around it with the idea of you could use overload to attack mass mutas but if you missed then your phoenixs were sitting ducks
then they realised people could simply stagger the overloads and essentially make small number of phoenixs able to take on infinity mutalisks
That is a distinct problem in its own terms. You couldn't efficiently "stagger" the viking loops or say do a number of loops around a colossi because that would create diminishing returns for the actual success of a viking looping it (ie if you had 7 vikings to create 7 loops around a colossi to inevitably catch it, it wouldn't be that much of a comparative advantage to simply using those 7 to shoot the colossi with missiles).
why i think this is similar becuase your idea is like that its an idea that makes sense on paper (for you only) but theres no way to implement it if terran keep playing the exact same way they are right now, except when the engagement finally happens they only have to fly one single viking forward and activate the ability and the toss has to micro the collosus back or it gets killed then the terran can use less vikings then he would normally because the protoss has to keep constantly dancing around with the collosus so all the money they sank into getting the collosus out becomes practically worthless as a result a terrans bioball right there becomes hugely more effecient because they dont have to cahnge there strategy at all but the toss has to drastically change his
I've already addressed this multiple times. Stutter-step. I'll say it again: colossi stutter-step. One viking alone would never succeed, it would get shot down by stalkers, and if that lone viking was all the terran built, then the terran would have no anti-air to stop the colossi and would get overrun. Thus, producing fewer vikings would be a potential advantage by saving more resources and food for the core bio army (if Terrans could pull it off successfully), but also be a risk in that the terran would be vulnerable if the low viking count did not succeed in pulling off this manuever.
The protoss doesn't have to change his strategy, he only needs to control his units better and not blindly a-move. It's not unreasonable for protosses learn to stutter step, split, and focus fire (Terrans do that everyday in TvZ, and it's no surprise that TvZ is one of the most interesting matchups).
there is no need for a constructive alternative the game is fine as it is now with maybe a couple balance tweaks here and there
The fact that there are 50 pages of discussion about late game TvP here and the fact that most BW players prefer BW over SC2 seem to say otherwise.
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You might've missed it because it was an edited part to further elaborate, but I explained that it would be better to err on the side of difficulty. If it's too much effort to bother, that's fine - there would absolutely no down-side to this change, no negative repercussions. However, it would raise the skill ceiling, in that someone (say, a current BW pro transitioning) could feasibly overcome that difficulty by simply multitasking and controlling better.
i dont get how you dont get it, by moving a couple vikings forward and just shift queing a circle around a collosus it forces every collosus the toss has to leave the field immediately collosus would never ever ever get used again toss are already moving more and more away from them in PvT to zealot archon compositions having collosus be even easier to completely negate with little cost and barely and micro would be pointless
Collosus VS Viking is fine making it even easier for Terran to completely negate an entire tech tree from Toss is dumb
I've already addressed this multiple times. Stutter-step. I'll say it again: colossi stutter-step. One viking alone would never succeed, it would get shot down by stalkers, and if that lone viking was all the terran built, then the terran would have no anti-air to stop the colossi and would get overrun. Thus, producing fewer vikings would be a potential advantage by saving more resources and food for the core bio army (if Terrans could pull it off successfully), but also be a risk in that the terran would be vulnerable if the low viking count did not succeed in pulling off this manuever.
step 1: make 5 vikings
step 2: make it look like your going for the maneuver
step 3: pull back the vikings when Collosus pull back
step 4: easily bowl over there army since so much supply and resources are wasted on the collosus
just park the vikings over your army and the collosus cant get close without the vikings one shotting them, youd have to kill the vikings before you can engage with the collosus and by that time the bio killed your army
The fact that there are 50 pages of discussion about late game TvP here and the fact that most BW players prefer BW over SC2 seem to say otherwise.
your first point isnt a point, theres 50 page of discussion so what its not 50 page of everyone agreeing its terrible
and you have no source for your second point and since the BW palyers ahve only been palying for a couple months they are no where close to being viable sources of information
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On May 06 2012 04:25 Forikorder wrote:
i dont get how you dont get it, by moving a couple vikings forward and just shift queing a circle around a collosus it forces every collosus the toss has to leave the field immediately collosus would never ever ever get used again
You're continuing with this false presumption. You keep insisting that "every collosus [sic] has to leave the field immediately" because of this ability. That's incorrect. Remember that this is a small loop that the viking will have to do (re-read the OP: this is an ability limited by time, vikings will not be able to make cords stretching halfway across the map). All the colossus has to do is literally walk a radius of maybe 3 hexes to escape the cord. And this is easily accomplished while retaining its power in the fight by stutter-stepping.
Collosus VS Viking is fine making it even easier for Terran to completely negate an entire tech tree from Toss is dumb
Again, you're contradicting yourself. Just one post earlier you were claiming that the circles would be so small that it would be useless for terrans to attempt (in which there would therefore be no threat to colossi). So your point here seems to lack stable consistency. Like I said previously: the design would err on the side of making this move difficulty for Terrans. If the loop is kept small, that would increase protoss options in avoiding [by moving, by making it harder for vikings to get closer, etc]. It's really straight forward.
step 1: make 5 vikings
step 2: make it look like your going for the maneuver
step 3: pull back the vikings when Collosus pull back
step 4: easily bowl over there army since so much supply and resources are wasted on the collosus
just park the vikings over your army and the collosus cant get close without the vikings one shotting them, youd have to kill the vikings before you can engage with the collosus and by that time the bio killed your army
Again, this is presenting an entirely false scenario. Perhaps a bronze level protoss would overreact to vikings approach to the point of running their colossi back across the entirety of the map, but anyone with decent control would answer "step 2"
by A: focus-firing the vikings with stalkers, B: simply moving the colossi a hex or two back and forth to make their positioning non-static and unpredictable and C: simply stutter-step so that the colossi still participate in engagements if the Terran simultaneously pushes with his bio army.
I'm not sure what you're misunderstanding. Perhaps you're assuming that once the viking starts cording, the colossus is immobile or cannot cross the cord. This would be incorrect. At any stage until the viking finishes a full closed circuit, the colossi could move (in any direction) past the bounds of the circuit and be unharmed.
The fact that there are 50 pages of discussion about late game TvP here and the fact that most BW players prefer BW over SC2 seem to say otherwise.
your first point isnt a point, theres 50 page of discussion so what its not 50 page of everyone agreeing its terrible
and you have no source for your second point and since the BW palyers ahve only been palying for a couple months they are no where close to being viable sources of information[/QUOTE][/quote]
Not a point? You're not paying attention if you're not noticing concerns with late game TvP: from MVP not playing a single game against Naniwa past 2 base, from Jinro's comments on the power of late game PvT, from qxc's comment on late game TvP [which I also linked in the OP], and from the fact that there was such an outcry to even make Blizzard have to bring up the subject at all. If you're going to be stubborn enough to avoid the obvious truth that the community has concerns with late-game TvP, I can point you to the initial "balance discussion with David Kim" thread where countless posts wondered why Blizzard did not address TvP. And of course not everyone is going to agree, any balance discussion is going to have a wide variety of viewpoints, but the fact that the thread is that long proves that there is at least a sizable sample of people that do agree that late game TvP has some issues.
My second point was not talking about BW pros from Korea, but the BW community on TL. Anyone cognizant of TL's BW community knows that a considerable number of note how SC2, comparatively, has a much more watered down skill ceiling (for example: this or this).
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You're continuing with this false presumption. You keep insisting that "every collosus [sic] has to leave the field immediately" because of this ability. That's incorrect. Remember that this is a small loop that the viking will have to do (re-read the OP: this is an ability limited by time, vikings will not be able to make cords stretching halfway across the map). All the colossus has to do is literally walk a radius of maybe 3 hexes to escape the cord. And this is easily accomplished while retaining its power in the fight by stutter-stepping.
then the ability is worthless and couldnt possible ever work
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Colossi are slightly faster than AT-AT; not sure if it would work. But if it does, the viking has to shoot the Colossus once it has fallen over to destroy it. Or, it can sneeze on it rendering its shields disabled.
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On May 06 2012 06:46 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +You're continuing with this false presumption. You keep insisting that "every collosus [sic] has to leave the field immediately" because of this ability. That's incorrect. Remember that this is a small loop that the viking will have to do (re-read the OP: this is an ability limited by time, vikings will not be able to make cords stretching halfway across the map). All the colossus has to do is literally walk a radius of maybe 3 hexes to escape the cord. And this is easily accomplished while retaining its power in the fight by stutter-stepping. then the ability is worthless and couldnt possible ever work
You're operating under a false dichotomy. You're claiming that either Terrans can use the ability, and colossus die, making it "imbalanced," or you're claiming that Terrans can't use that ability, making it "worthless."
First, the dichotomy is false: rather than being a binary, it is a gradual continuum. It isn't: "it will work" vs. "it won't work," it is a gradual scale of how effective the move will be in killing colossi. The great thing about this continuum is that depends on both the control of the terran player AND the control of the protoss player.
Second, this proposal is no risk. In attempting to reach a balance, we could (as I've stated three times now, where all three times you've failed to acknowledge the solution) err on the side of caution, err on the side of the ability not being effective versus it being too effective. This would work because the current status quo (simply using vikings' normal attack to counter colossi) would still be present. If it's not effective, then absolutely nothing in the current game/balance would be disrupted or harmed.
However, to be clear, this would not make the ability "worthless" simply because it is difficult to pull off. It would simply require a higher skill level from Terrans to accomplish, and in turn, a higher skill level from the protoss to counter the Terrans if Terrans managed to have the level of skill to accomplish this task.
This balance of control is much like the marine-baneling dynamic.
Theoretically, marine-splits would "nullify banelings" and make them worthless, as you claim that this viking technique would do to colossi. For example: optimal marine splitting.
However, this is not the case for two reasons.
1: this is dependent upon skill and control, players would not have the 9000apm of a computer.
2: zergs have a reactive element of control: they can flank and use zerglings to surround.
Now, although the above two are reasons why marine splits would not be imbalanced, that isn't to say marine splits wouldn't be perfect: even if players can't marine split like an automaton, they can marine split decently well and still gain a relative benefit from such a move.
Likewise with the viking against the colossi. Even if players can't perfectly micro vikings to the point of imbalance, they can still micro them effectively enough to gain some benefit, and the protoss can micro in response to counter the benefit gained from the Terran's move.
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First, the dichotomy is false: rather than being a binary, it is a gradual continuum. It isn't: "it will work" vs. "it won't work," it is a gradual scale of how effective the move will be in killing colossi. The great thing about this continuum is that depends on both the control of the terran player AND the control of the protoss player.
right, the terran has to make moves that rival the accuracy of open heart surgery and the toss has to make the collosus take 2 steps to the left
it is impossible for the move to work on a collosus if it has to be within a couple hexes like you said
there is no middleground, either the circle has to be so small any toss with a brain gets the collosus out in time or its large enough to make it impossible to get out in time
Second, this proposal is no risk. In attempting to reach a balance, we could (as I've stated three times now, where all three times you've failed to acknowledge the solution) err on the side of caution, err on the side of the ability not being effective versus it being too effective. This would work because the current status quo (simply using vikings' normal attack to counter colossi) would still be present. If it's not effective, then absolutely nothing in the current game/balance would be disrupted or harmed.
no reason not to add something is not the same as having a reason to add it theres no reason to risk completely imbalancing the game jsut becuase theres no reason to add something, unless theres a good reason to add something its not going in
This balance of control is much like the marine-baneling dynamic.
you realise the reason infester/ling is so popular is because Terran have gotten so good at splitting that banelings are pretty much never cost effective at all?
between marine splitting as terran and getting better at focusing on the Blings with tanks blings rarely exist in ZvT anymore
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On May 06 2012 07:18 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +First, the dichotomy is false: rather than being a binary, it is a gradual continuum. It isn't: "it will work" vs. "it won't work," it is a gradual scale of how effective the move will be in killing colossi. The great thing about this continuum is that depends on both the control of the terran player AND the control of the protoss player. right, the terran has to make moves that rival the accuracy of open heart surgery and the toss has to make the collosus take 2 steps to the left it is impossible for the move to work on a collosus if it has to be within a couple hexes like you said there is no middleground, either the circle has to be so small any toss with a brain gets the collosus out in time or its large enough to make it impossible to get out in time Show nested quote +Second, this proposal is no risk. In attempting to reach a balance, we could (as I've stated three times now, where all three times you've failed to acknowledge the solution) err on the side of caution, err on the side of the ability not being effective versus it being too effective. This would work because the current status quo (simply using vikings' normal attack to counter colossi) would still be present. If it's not effective, then absolutely nothing in the current game/balance would be disrupted or harmed. no reason not to add something is not the same as having a reason to add it theres no reason to risk completely imbalancing the game jsut becuase theres no reason to add something, unless theres a good reason to add something its not going in you realise the reason infester/ling is so popular is because Terran have gotten so good at splitting that banelings are pretty much never cost effective at all? between marine splitting as terran and getting better at focusing on the Blings with tanks blings rarely exist in ZvT anymore
Again, it seems you can't think outside of a dichotomy. Of course, deconstruction necessitates that your post contradict itself if you insist on the dichotomy.
First, you write: "the terran has to make moves that rival the accuracy of open heart surgery and the toss has to make the collosus take 2 steps to the left" (of course, evidence of your clearly dichotomous thinking in that you use such hyperbole - "heat surgery" to describe any task of skill).
Second, you claim (creating the contradiction): "no reason to risk completely imbalancing the game"
If it's so hard for terran as you claim, then it obviously wouldn't imbalance the game. You keep ignoring my point that the implementation would clearly err on the side of making it difficult for terrans.
"there is no middleground" - there is always a middle ground, life isn't black and white. There's still a point where it could be hard to do, but still do-able and rewarding when accomplished. The same logic really applies to any instance of micro in starcraft. Splitting marines (in both sc1 and sc2) operated like this - splitting marines was often helpful in counteracting lurkers, but lurkers obviously did not lose use. Mutalisk and scourge against corsairs operated the same way. Ghosts versus high templars. It goes on and on. In every case, there is a scale of better reward for better micro, ultimately because the micro went both ways. If you had 4 ghosts versus 6 high templar, you coould micro poorly, sniping none of them, and getting completely feedback. If you micro'd slightly better, you could snipe 3 of them but still get feedbacked, perhaps stormed, too. If you micro'd optimally, you would snipe all of them. But that wouldn't defeat the purpose of high templar because high templar can counteract ghosts by control from the other player. As you can see, there's a scale of how successful ghosts are against high templar, and even at the highest end, that success is not imbalanced because the protoss has a dual role in microing versus the terran. It's exactly the same. You're assuming that either the terran fails or the terran succeeds, but there's a mix of the terran failing because the protoss succeeds, or the terran and protoss both damaging each other failing, or the terran succeeding because the protoss failing, or the terran and protoss both micro-ing insanely and producing a stalemate.
you realise the reason infester/ling is so popular is because Terran have gotten so good at splitting that banelings are pretty much never cost effective at all?
Not at all, infestor-ling is so popular because it naturally transitions to late-game ZvT compositions of infestor-BL or infestor ultra, and zergs got better at defending drops without mutalisks.
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This would be a great idea if there was a 50% chance that the viking would die after completing the loop. (or at least crash, so the pilot could out and shoot a grapple hook into the walker and drop a d-8 charge  )
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First, you write: "the terran has to make moves that rival the accuracy of open heart surgery and the toss has to make the collosus take 2 steps to the left" (of course, evidence of your clearly dichotomous thinking in that you use such hyperbole - "heat surgery" to describe any task of skill).
Second, you claim (creating the contradiction): "no reason to risk completely imbalancing the game"
If it's so hard for terran as you claim, then it obviously wouldn't imbalance the game. You keep ignoring my point that the implementation would clearly err on the side of making it difficult for terrans.
the only way the change could possibly effect the game in any way is bad, since its impossible for it to do good since vikings VS collosus is fine as is then its 99% likely to jsut be the viking version of the Thors cannon with a very very slight chance that someone figures out a way to completely break it
There's still a point where it could be hard to do, but still do-able and rewarding when accomplished.
no there isnt since theres such a huge skill gap between pros and joes either its impossible for the joes to ever pull off and too mcuh effort with not enough reward for the pros or too easy for the pros and doable by the joes
Not at all, infestor-ling is so popular because it naturally transitions to late-game ZvT compositions of infestor-BL or infestor ultra, and zergs got better at defending drops without mutalisks.
Zerg went ling/bane/muta for almost 2 years then all of a sudden pretty much everyone switchs to infester/ling and the few times we do see ling/bane/muta in GSL (like DRGs Ro32 matchs) the Zerg struggles to do anything with it since the Terran can pretty much split perfectly and focus the banes down and they know exactly how to defend muta harass so Zergs took the 2 worthless gas guzzlers (mutas and banes) and put them into something useful (infesters and upgrades) if anything muta/ling/bane transitions better since you already have the spire, already have air upgrades and have the ground upgrades however since Terran can pretty mcuh make mutas and banelings worthless people stopped using them
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the cord goes around the legs? shouldnt it be like a bit higher, cause if its too low then cant the collosus just step over it, i mean it can walk up and down cliffs, its like an AT-AT where it cant jump or something. not really gameplay, more like graphics
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My primary reasoning behind this being a bad idea, it's completely one dimensional. "Vikings should be able to kill Colossus instantly."
The ability is completely useless in the Viking vs Overlord battle, the Viking vs Void Ray battle, the occasional Viking vs SCV battle... it only has an effect against Colossus. No other ability in SC has ever been like that. The only thing that would come close is Lockdown being completely ineffective against Zerg. Certainly, some abilities work better against certain units/races/what have you, but even in unfavorable situations they still do something.
The insta-kill part is also rather unprecedented in StarCraft, but this isn't nearly as much an issue.
I admire you for trying to make the Colossus/Viking interaction more interesting (it's one of the most boring parts of the game) but this idea is just a needless exception. It sounds like a band-aid fix when you can't balance something. (Ultralisk frenzy anyone?)
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This is a very interesting idea, but like all great ideas balancing will be difficult. Make it too easy to escape the loop and the ability will be useless. Making it easier to pull down colossus would on the other hand make it too easy for Terran.
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EPT
