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Recently I've found myself thinking about life and the meaning of life and how to achieve a sense of fulfillment. This introspection has lead me to the belief that no one chooses to be who they are.
There are some obvious examples like, "If one grows up in a 'good' house, they will grow up to be a 'good' person". If I meet someone who is mean in real life, I automatically judge them and think "I would never be so mean". But if I had grown up under their circumstances, I would be just like them.
So really, no one can judge anyone. The concept of "criminals" is flawed; it's just well-brought-up people vs not-well-brought-up-people. If someone robs a bank and I think, "I'd never rob a bank, send that man to jail!" or someone kills another person, "I'd never kill another human, death penalty!", is simply not correct because you would kill another person had you been born into the criminal's situation.
Some people might argue that if someone commits homicide, they need to be locked up or killed in order to stop them from killing someone else. Does this person deserve to be locked up just because of the way in which he was brought up?
None of the decisions we make are our own decisions. They were made because of some event or series of events that we witnessed earlier in our life. If I decide to rescue a dog on the side of the road, it's not because I'm a "good person", it's because I was born in a society where that's a normal, "good" thing to do.
We are influenced by everything but the most prominent factor is probably ourselves. People with soft voices don't talk much for fear of not being heard, and that shapes their entire personality and image. People that are naturally beautiful might look with disdain on less beautiful people and pre-judge them as not working hard enough for their beauty. My point is that you can never really judge a person until you are in their shoes, or their body.
I think once everybody accepts the fact that no one is better than anyone else, we can realize that the only way to produce all "good" people is to change our culture. If everyone was brought up on the idea that we are all different and that we are who we are due to "luck of the draw", people would live in peace, I think.
When I think of the word, "bad", a few things come to mind: terrorists, criminals, liars... I'm beating a dead horse now, but none of those "bad" people chose to be bad, they were in victims of culture.
I just felt like writing my feelings on this matter to let it out. Please post your feelings on the matter.
 
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people are not just products of their environment. certainly that is a big component to it, but not an end all be all.
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On May 05 2012 08:47 Angel_ wrote:
people are not just products of their environment. certainly that is a big component to it, but not an end all be all.
Can you please elaborate on your viewpoint?
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Human actions are the result of a mixture of factors: genetic predisposition, the environment one grew up and lives in and then - to a certain extent - free will.
OP's perspective, claiming the total lack of free will, is a theory that gains more and more ground in modern neuroscience. Several studies on brain activity have shown that decisions we think we take have actually been made already seconds ago, without us knowing. It's really weird because it goes against our view on life and ourselves. Plus, it's really creepy, thinking about how you're not really controlling yourself - it might just all be an illusion.
The consequences are even harder. What good are criminal laws if nobody is responsable for their actions? They still might work as a preventive measure (scaring possible criminals) but the concept of punishing people for their decisions by putting them into jail would have to be thrown overboard.
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all generalizations are wrong.
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You are assuming that we have no actual control over our own actions, that we have no free will. In my opinion, that's impossible, and if it is somehow true, it is useless to argue about it. You can't prove that free will exists; it's like proving the existence of God.If I say that there is an invisible rabbit that is in the center of our solar system, and that he is represented by the sun, you can't disprove me. I could say it can't be detected, but it's there. Likewise with free will.
Predetermination cannot exist due to entropy, chaos, etc, so I don't think that's really a factor in our lives. While it is true to a degree that we are influenced by our upbringing, there are some things that we know are true, like how it is wrong to murder or rape. If you murder an ex-girlfriend, even if you grew up as a child of an abusive father, you have still done something that you knew was wrong. Most of us also grow up in a society where we are told what is wrong, so that our society can function, i.e. it is wrong to steal. For that reason, I would hold basically everyone in the "West" accountable for any wrong doing. I would not hesitate to lock up a killer.
It would incredibly dangerous to believe that no one is better than anyone else. It is fact that I am better than some people. If I get an A in a class, and someone else got a B, I am better (at least as assessed by the teacher) than that person at that subject. That person could probably have gotten an A, unless that person is inherently more stupid than me, which also makes me "better." This "equality" thing reminds of this short story. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron
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On May 05 2012 08:54 MisterD wrote:
all generalizations are wrong.
I see what you did there
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On May 05 2012 08:54 MisterD wrote:
all generalizations are wrong.
Well that's a generalization 
I think this mostly comes down to philosophical stance, and how much free will it is stated we have. Locke/Hobbes Rousseau, Voltaire, the classics, all sort of come down to the "free will or no free will" And if we don't, are we inherently good or inherently evil?
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What a bunch of defeatist crap. 1/5.
Do you really think the world would look the way it does if everyone played the hand that was given to them? Lots of people are dealt shitty cards and still take home pots. Sure some are born with AK/AA but history shows that many river cards defy the odds and many AK's are folded after the flop comes up all suited.
Take what you've observed and use it as a help to understand other people instead.
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On May 05 2012 08:57 Chocolate wrote:It would incredibly dangerous to believe that no one is better than anyone else. It is fact that I am better than some people. If I get an A in a class, and someone else got a B, I am better (at least as assessed by the teacher) than that person at that subject. That person could probably have gotten an A, unless that person is inherently more stupid than me, which also makes me "better." This "equality" thing reminds of this short story. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron
But would you have gotten an A if you had grown up in the B student's circumstances? If a kid has parents and/or life experiences that don't advocate working hard in school, they're "going to get a B". You've probably had some life experience that told you that working hard in school is good, and thus you got an A.
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On May 05 2012 08:58 Thrill wrote:
What a bunch of defeatist crap. 1/5.
Do you really think the world would look the way it does if everyone played the hand that was given to them? Lots of people are dealt shitty cards and still take home pots. Sure some are born with AK/AA but history shows that many river cards defy the odds and many AK's are folded after the flop comes up all suited.
Take what you've observed and use it as a help to understand other people instead.
I would also argue this. There is good in every community, and although some hands are multitudes better than others, being a criminal is not based solely on background.
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Yup, I've come to this same realization over the past few years. When it comes to it, no one actually has a choice in what they do. Their is no spiritual force driving their actions based on some arbitrary morale code. Who we are is based on two things that we can not change: what we've experienced in life, and our genes. Every decision we make is essentially inevitable, because all the inputs leading up to a decision at the moment have already been made. We cannot change our past, so we cannot change our future. We're essentially a super-complicated input-output system, almost like a computer or a plant with millions and millions of complex stimuli affecting our every decision. There is no real "choice". We don't make arbitrary decisions, instead they have been influenced by things beyond our own control.
But in daily life, it doesn't get you anywhere go on living thinking you don't have a choice. So might as well just play along ;p
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On May 05 2012 08:54 MisterD wrote:
all generalizations are wrong.
lol!
But to the OP, it's good to have empathy, but I don't think you need to completely abandon the idea of responsibility and free will to do that. If you believe that we are all completely helpless products of our environment, then what impetus is there to suppress our tendencies to cause harm, or to do benevolent acts? Your thinking seems like a pathway in to not putting effort into anything, because why bother if it is all predetermined? Yes it's good to be forgiving and understanding, but I believe there is such a thing as an evil act, and a choice made to do it or not.
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On May 05 2012 09:05 AegonC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 08:57 Chocolate wrote:It would incredibly dangerous to believe that no one is better than anyone else. It is fact that I am better than some people. If I get an A in a class, and someone else got a B, I am better (at least as assessed by the teacher) than that person at that subject. That person could probably have gotten an A, unless that person is inherently more stupid than me, which also makes me "better." This "equality" thing reminds of this short story. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron But would you have gotten an A if you had grown up in the B student's circumstances? If a kid has parents and/or life experiences that don't advocate working hard in school, they're "going to get a B". You've probably had some life experience that told you that working hard in school is good, and thus you got an A.
Meh. I'd somewhat disagree. Although this is a trend, it is by no means an absolute. In my AP classes, I have friends who ahve parents who dont' give a shit. They didn't graduate from college. And they dont' care. Their kids still manage to do well.
Then there are people with rich educated parents who try so hard to make them care and they refuse. And I have parents who highly value education, yet I havent' done as well as some people from theoretically superior households, because I have been quite lazy at times. It is by no means clear cut.
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On May 05 2012 09:05 AegonC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 08:57 Chocolate wrote:It would incredibly dangerous to believe that no one is better than anyone else. It is fact that I am better than some people. If I get an A in a class, and someone else got a B, I am better (at least as assessed by the teacher) than that person at that subject. That person could probably have gotten an A, unless that person is inherently more stupid than me, which also makes me "better." This "equality" thing reminds of this short story. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron But would you have gotten an A if you had grown up in the B student's circumstances? If a kid has parents and/or life experiences that don't advocate working hard in school, they're "going to get a B". You've probably had some life experience that told you that working hard in school is good, and thus you got an A.
I'm curious if you've been exposed to a lot of Psychology/Sociology recently.
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On May 05 2012 09:07 Mothra wrote:
Yes it's good to be forgiving and understanding, but I believe there is such a thing as an evil act, and a choice made to do it or not.
As do I. The difference is that I believe that one can't be held morally responsible for that choice. Anyone would have made the choice if they were in the evil-doer's shoes.
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this is horseshit, but let's pretend for a second that it isn't
let's say that i (considered by my friends, family, and peers to be very intelligent, not trying to brag, but this piece of information is crucial to my point) am somehow removed from my life and replaced with someone else (for the purpose of the point i am making, let's say that he is below average intelligence/IQ)
do you think that if he were placed into my life now, with somehow all of the exact experiences and timing that my life had, that he would continue to make the exact same decisions that i will for the rest of my/his life? do you really believe that would happen, even given the difference in "brain power"?
On May 05 2012 09:10 Mothra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 09:05 AegonC wrote:On May 05 2012 08:57 Chocolate wrote:It would incredibly dangerous to believe that no one is better than anyone else. It is fact that I am better than some people. If I get an A in a class, and someone else got a B, I am better (at least as assessed by the teacher) than that person at that subject. That person could probably have gotten an A, unless that person is inherently more stupid than me, which also makes me "better." This "equality" thing reminds of this short story. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron But would you have gotten an A if you had grown up in the B student's circumstances? If a kid has parents and/or life experiences that don't advocate working hard in school, they're "going to get a B". You've probably had some life experience that told you that working hard in school is good, and thus you got an A. I'm curious if you've been exposed to a lot of Psychology/Sociology recently.
we usually get a lot of pseudo-intellectual, philosophical, and psychological threads on TL every year around finals time
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On May 05 2012 09:05 AegonC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 08:57 Chocolate wrote:It would incredibly dangerous to believe that no one is better than anyone else. It is fact that I am better than some people. If I get an A in a class, and someone else got a B, I am better (at least as assessed by the teacher) than that person at that subject. That person could probably have gotten an A, unless that person is inherently more stupid than me, which also makes me "better." This "equality" thing reminds of this short story. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron But would you have gotten an A if you had grown up in the B student's circumstances? If a kid has parents and/or life experiences that don't advocate working hard in school, they're "going to get a B". You've probably had some life experience that told you that working hard in school is good, and thus you got an A.
My brother has the exact same parents as me who advocate the same values, yet consistently does worse in school and and on standardized tests than me. I don't think it can purely be environment, although that can be a factor. I'm talking about the conscious decision to either play starcraft/browseTL/whatever or study. If you think we don't have decisions, then I recommend you read my previous post on my take.
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On May 05 2012 09:13 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:
this is horseshit, but let's pretend for a second that it isn't
let's say that i (considered by my friends, family, and peers to be very intelligent, not trying to brag, but this piece of information is crucial to my point) am somehow removed from my life and replaced with someone else (for the purpose of the point i am making, let's say that he is below average intelligence/IQ)
do you think that if he were placed into my life now, with somehow all of the exact experiences and timing that my life had, that he would continue to make the exact same decisions that i will for the rest of my/his life? do you really believe that would happen, even given the difference in "brain power"?
Thank you for that metaphor.
The example you used isn't realistic. The person that had a "lower than average IQ" has a lower than average IQ because of genes and/or life experience. No one is really an individual, we are all the sum of our life experiences and genes.
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On May 05 2012 09:15 AegonC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 09:13 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:
this is horseshit, but let's pretend for a second that it isn't
let's say that i (considered by my friends, family, and peers to be very intelligent, not trying to brag, but this piece of information is crucial to my point) am somehow removed from my life and replaced with someone else (for the purpose of the point i am making, let's say that he is below average intelligence/IQ)
do you think that if he were placed into my life now, with somehow all of the exact experiences and timing that my life had, that he would continue to make the exact same decisions that i will for the rest of my/his life? do you really believe that would happen, even given the difference in "brain power"? Thank you for that metaphor. The example you used isn't realistic. The person that had a "lower than average IQ" has a lower than average IQ because of genes and/or life experience. No one is really an individual, we are all the sum of our life experiences and genes.
i already said that he had the exact same life experiences as me, so the only difference is genetic
answer the question, please
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all about the microbes you have when you're in development actually
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On May 05 2012 09:11 AegonC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 09:07 Mothra wrote:
Yes it's good to be forgiving and understanding, but I believe there is such a thing as an evil act, and a choice made to do it or not. As do I. The difference is that I believe that one can't be held morally responsible for that choice. Anyone would have made the choice if they were in the evil-doer's shoes.
Fortunately your feelings are not an accurate representation of reality. As many replies state, environment is not the sole variable for structuring beliefs and actions. People have conscious and free thought.
You keep bringing up the case, that no matter who you are, you will do the same act as anyone else, in any situation. Even if I were in some "evil-doer's" shoes, I would still have a choice, and I would be responsible for that choice. Excusing your actions because someone else would have done the same thing, does not make it morally right.
Take a basic 101 Biology and/or Psychology course if you wish to learn more. The subject has already been studied and analyzed extensively.
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that's an easy way to dismiss responsability.
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On May 05 2012 08:40 AegonC wrote:
When I think of the word, "bad", a few things come to mind: terrorists, criminals, liars... I'm beating a dead horse now, but none of those "bad" people chose to be bad, they were in victims of culture.
Assuming I grant you everything in your post...so what?
Just because "bad" people aren't bad they just do bad stuff...we should...what?
I'm all for compassion and such for everybody. I swear, if compassion were sweat, I'd look like Patrick Ewing...but we still need to remove people who do bad things from society so as not to disrupt it.
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On May 05 2012 08:40 AegonC wrote:I just felt like writing my feelings on this matter to let it out. Please post your feelings on the matter. I agree with you, there is no free will and we have no choice over what we are. Modern empirical sciences are also starting to prove that our lives are pre-determined to such an extent that children conceived doggy-style will do better in school than those conceived in the missionary position.
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Seriously, what the fuck ? 1/5.
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I think almost every claim in the OP was incorrect... The absurdity of determinism. The false belief that persons are product of solely nurture. The assumption of reductionism, that the entirety of the human person can be boiled down to said nurture, and the especially absurd extension of this reductionism to moral qualities. The contradictory logic that A: we have no free will, yet B: the solution is for us to "choose" to change our culture. The false belief that the penal system is meant to account for moral culpability. Don't even know where to begin in correcting these errors...
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Nonsense. You can't just blame the people around you for your actions. I grew up in an insanely religious home, how did I turn out like I am? I've dealt with a lot of ignorant rednecks, but I'm not one.
Your environment can assist in shaping you, but it doesn't make you. It's like adaptation vs evolution in nature. Your environment will help shape certain tendencies, but only you decide who you are.
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You should just go a step further and fall into the realm of total determinism. Then you can relinquish responsibility for everything. Because it just ain't your fault, and you're only a puppet on the strings of fate.
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I think my statements have been misconstrued. The intent of my writing isn't to justify laziness. I believe that every decision a person makes can be traced to some gene, some event in their past that caused them to make that decision.
We aren't at the wheel in the proverbial car of life.
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On May 05 2012 10:10 AegonC wrote:
I think my statements have been misconstrued. The intent of my writing isn't to justify laziness. I believe that every decision a person makes can be traced to some gene, some event in their past that caused them to make that decision.
We aren't at the wheel in the proverbial car of life.
So if someone robs you, it's not their fault? What's your address? I assume you won't press charges. This post can be directly attributed to 98% of my brain cells shutting down in self defense at the assertion that we aren't responsible for our own actions.
+ Show Spoiler + No actual threat implied, merely making a point.
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On May 05 2012 10:14 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 10:10 AegonC wrote:
I think my statements have been misconstrued. The intent of my writing isn't to justify laziness. I believe that every decision a person makes can be traced to some gene, some event in their past that caused them to make that decision.
We aren't at the wheel in the proverbial car of life. So if someone robs you, it's not their fault? What's your address? I assume you won't press charges. This post can be directly attributed to 98% of my brain cells shutting down in self defense at the assertion that we aren't responsible for our own actions. + Show Spoiler + No actual threat implied, merely making a point.
If you robbed me, I would press charges, but I couldn't judge you and say "I'm a better person", because I didn't mature in your circumstances.
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On May 05 2012 10:17 AegonC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 10:14 JingleHell wrote:On May 05 2012 10:10 AegonC wrote:
I think my statements have been misconstrued. The intent of my writing isn't to justify laziness. I believe that every decision a person makes can be traced to some gene, some event in their past that caused them to make that decision.
We aren't at the wheel in the proverbial car of life. So if someone robs you, it's not their fault? What's your address? I assume you won't press charges. This post can be directly attributed to 98% of my brain cells shutting down in self defense at the assertion that we aren't responsible for our own actions. + Show Spoiler + No actual threat implied, merely making a point. If you robbed me, I would press charges, but I couldn't judge you and say "I'm a better person", because I didn't mature in your circumstances.
But if it's not my fault, you should press charges against my parents. But they're not responsible for how they raised me, so blame theirs. Except most of them are dead... dammit, this is getting confusing. If we're religious, do we file charges against the Pope? Or just some lower bishop? And if we're not religious, do we blame those stupid chimps?
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No i would argue completely against this (mostly because i like the idea of free will). It its more likely that someone who grew up in a hostile enviorment with some bad luck might turn out to be a vicious criminal. But i can guarantee you that there is someone who suffered the same thing but made the decision to do good instead of harm.
Lets look at the easiest example, gangsters. Gang's is not something some middle/high class American decides one day "Hey i wanna be in gang!" Its mostly low class who see no other opportunity. But not every person in say Detroit will become a gangster is there a high percentage? Yes, but if you looked at each and every person who joined vs didn't join they wouldn't be to far off.
In my very personal opinion i can't ever view Destiny or God as a real thing. Every action i make is decided by me and me alone, the thought that some higher being is controlling me or it has been all planned out is ludicrous to me.
I see Pre-determinism as sort of an excuse for why something happened instead of just accepting the fact and moving on,
Of course this is all me opinion.
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On May 05 2012 10:19 JingleHell wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 10:17 AegonC wrote:On May 05 2012 10:14 JingleHell wrote:On May 05 2012 10:10 AegonC wrote:
I think my statements have been misconstrued. The intent of my writing isn't to justify laziness. I believe that every decision a person makes can be traced to some gene, some event in their past that caused them to make that decision.
We aren't at the wheel in the proverbial car of life. So if someone robs you, it's not their fault? What's your address? I assume you won't press charges. This post can be directly attributed to 98% of my brain cells shutting down in self defense at the assertion that we aren't responsible for our own actions. + Show Spoiler + No actual threat implied, merely making a point. If you robbed me, I would press charges, but I couldn't judge you and say "I'm a better person", because I didn't mature in your circumstances. But if it's not my fault, you should press charges against my parents. But they're not responsible for how they raised me, so blame theirs. Except most of them are dead... dammit, this is getting confusing. If we're religious, do we file charges against the Pope? Or just some lower bishop? And if we're not religious, do we blame those stupid chimps?
We blame nobody. That's the crux of his whole story.
I also don't see anyone refuting OP's opinion. He obviously forgot to mention the genetic influence on people's behavior in the original post - which brought up those silly analogies of "swap person A with B; B wouldn't have ended up the same way" - but I don't see anyone disproving his thesis.
I do somehow get the people saying "that's just an excuse for being lazy and acting irresponsibly". OP's post might seem like the most simple way out of taking responsibility for one's actions. But that doesn't mean it isn't true.
The whole "god" analogy that was mentioned isn't bad actually. We're not in a situation to completely understand the process of decision making in the human brain, so it's impossible to refute or prove free will. Science has only given pointers so far which interestingly tend more and more towards supporting determinism.
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On May 05 2012 10:25 DreamChaser wrote:
In my very personal opinion i can't ever view Destiny or God as a real thing. Every action i make is decided by me and me alone, the thought that some higher being is controlling me or it has been all planned out is ludicrous to me.
I see Pre-determinism as sort of an excuse for why something happened instead of just accepting the fact and moving on,
Of course this is all me opinion.
I'm not saying that Destiny and/or God pre determines everything and controls you. I believe it has more to do with culture and genes etc. Nor am I saying that pre-determinism is an excuse for evil or laziness. I'm merely voicing my thoughts on a confusing sort of paradox that I've been thinking about recently.
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On May 05 2012 10:26 Spekulatius wrote:
I also don't see anyone refuting OP's opinion. He obviously forgot to mention the genetic influence on people's behavior in the original post - which brought up those silly analogies of "swap person A with B; B wouldn't have ended up the same way" - but I don't see anyone disproving his thesis.
Because it can't be disproven. No matter how many examples people may give for or against, there may exist some exception now or in the future. The burden of proof lies on the OP because he is claiming a supposed truth applicable to ALL people, but is too lazy to further develop his ideas apparently.
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On May 05 2012 10:41 Mothra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 10:26 Spekulatius wrote:
I also don't see anyone refuting OP's opinion. He obviously forgot to mention the genetic influence on people's behavior in the original post - which brought up those silly analogies of "swap person A with B; B wouldn't have ended up the same way" - but I don't see anyone disproving his thesis.
Because it can't be disproven. No matter how many examples people may give for or against, there may exist some exception now or in the future. The burden of proof lies on the OP because he is claiming a supposed truth applicable to ALL people, but is too lazy to further develop his ideas apparently.
Well, he's obviously no scientist or well read in that matter.
I just find it funny how people are so assured of the contrary of what he's saying. Without themselves being able to prove anything.
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On May 05 2012 10:44 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 10:41 Mothra wrote:On May 05 2012 10:26 Spekulatius wrote:
I also don't see anyone refuting OP's opinion. He obviously forgot to mention the genetic influence on people's behavior in the original post - which brought up those silly analogies of "swap person A with B; B wouldn't have ended up the same way" - but I don't see anyone disproving his thesis.
Because it can't be disproven. No matter how many examples people may give for or against, there may exist some exception now or in the future. The burden of proof lies on the OP because he is claiming a supposed truth applicable to ALL people, but is too lazy to further develop his ideas apparently. Well, he's obviously no scientist or well read in that matter. I just find it funny how people are so assured of the contrary of what he's saying. Without themselves being able to prove anything.
It's not our fault, we're predisposed to being contrary.
Baby we were...+ Show Spoiler +
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The choices I make in my life define who I am. I don't blame anyone but myself for my own shortcomings and I got nobody to thank but myself for my own successes. If you want to 'leave it up to fate' as it were, then best of luck to you. I don't choose to live my life that way.
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OP very true.
Unfortunately, most people who read the OP will misinterpret what you're saying. Many people strongly believe that their "free will" is something unique and special, and that criminals and lazy people are that way because they are just bad people.
Yes, criminals should be punished. But if "you" were "them", you would have committed the exact same crime. You aren't special, and your "free will" isn't special, either. The world is not divided into good people, and bad people.
If you study hard and do well on a test, that's just who you are - your work ethic and intelligence afforded you the ability to do so. If someone doesn't work hard, and scores badly, well, that's just who they are.
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I agree with the OP, but I don't share the tone of his view. I think it's kind of cool that we're just a product of influences and genes. It makes the human race a huge ass tangled web or ball of influences that is so complex that we can't really decipher it. Sure, while we can't choose who we are, everything is so complicated that it doesn't make a difference. And then they got modern physics and shit which just makes everything so much more weird.
I don't really think any of us should be dwelling excessively on a negative metaphysical philosophy when there is still so much cool shit to be discovered. I guess I just like to view the human race as some superorganism and accept that I'm just a part of it.
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I guess the reason why people are so averse to this idea is that it gives irresponsible people excuses-that its not their fault but rather its the fault of their environment, genetics, etc.
But Its not anger you should feel but rather pity. That means that they were meant to fail and irresponsible and etc. and they are just inferior human beings in the society we live in. The society, consequently ,was meant to be created this way so irresponsible people can't say they would've been better in any other society or environment. The society we have is the accumulation of thousands of years of correcting itself to what it should look like. If you are successful, you should be glad because you were chosen to be that way.
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On May 05 2012 10:44 Spekulatius wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 10:41 Mothra wrote:On May 05 2012 10:26 Spekulatius wrote:
I also don't see anyone refuting OP's opinion. He obviously forgot to mention the genetic influence on people's behavior in the original post - which brought up those silly analogies of "swap person A with B; B wouldn't have ended up the same way" - but I don't see anyone disproving his thesis.
Because it can't be disproven. No matter how many examples people may give for or against, there may exist some exception now or in the future. The burden of proof lies on the OP because he is claiming a supposed truth applicable to ALL people, but is too lazy to further develop his ideas apparently. Well, he's obviously no scientist or well read in that matter. I just find it funny how people are so assured of the contrary of what he's saying. Without themselves being able to prove anything.
Oh, my post was very clear. There were too many errors to have the time to point out. I listed what, 7 broad categorical problems with his thinking? But I have a final in 40 minutes - maybe I'll get to it later.
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On May 06 2012 04:22 LlamaNamedOsama wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 10:44 Spekulatius wrote:On May 05 2012 10:41 Mothra wrote:On May 05 2012 10:26 Spekulatius wrote:
I also don't see anyone refuting OP's opinion. He obviously forgot to mention the genetic influence on people's behavior in the original post - which brought up those silly analogies of "swap person A with B; B wouldn't have ended up the same way" - but I don't see anyone disproving his thesis.
Because it can't be disproven. No matter how many examples people may give for or against, there may exist some exception now or in the future. The burden of proof lies on the OP because he is claiming a supposed truth applicable to ALL people, but is too lazy to further develop his ideas apparently. Well, he's obviously no scientist or well read in that matter. I just find it funny how people are so assured of the contrary of what he's saying. Without themselves being able to prove anything. Oh, my post was very clear. There were too many errors to have the time to point out. I listed what, 7 broad categorical problems with his thinking? But I have a final in 40 minutes - maybe I'll get to it later.
you have a final on a Saturday? I feel bad for you 
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This thread is chock full of hope and inspiration.......
I have several things to say on this matter; but I wouldn't for the simple reason that this isn't an academic setting, and nothing positive can be gained from such debates here on a gaming forum. I've seen to many of these sort of blogs come and go; and have seen very little intellectual growth or stimulation come from them.
This is a good topic to discuss, sadly I don't think TL is the best place to get a well balanced discussion on the matter.
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lol, I love these type of topics.
There are known knowns, there are known unknowns, and there are unknown unknows... that last bit is the part that fucks everything up and is why no matter how 'right' you feel you can ultimately never be wholly certain of ultimate truth.
Laws and justice and all that nonsense, as described by Plato over 2000 years ago, are simply the will of the strong over the weak... marinate on that for a bit.
But ultimately your whole argument fails because the environment and the person are one in the same.... they are linked and cannot exist without each other. I'll try to illustrate it with a thought experiment.
Try to imagine a person with no environment.
You may imagine a person in a black void of nothingness and you might say... 'there i did it' but you cannot escape the fact that this person is living in your head(environment)... it is impossible for this person to live free of you.
Where does the environment end and you begin? Your skull, your brain, your body, is that you or part of the environment?
To save you trouble, you're going to ultimately ask where am I? Who is me? If you're incredibly lucky you'll catch a glimpse of the divine and everything will make sense.
There is a major drawback to this mindset though. You become essentially a God and everything that happens in the universe is your fault... this sounds crazy... and believe me when I say this is where crazy begins and everything else ends.
For the record I'm not a hippie... I just call it as I see it.
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EPT
