|
Recently I've found myself thinking about life and the meaning of life and how to achieve a sense of fulfillment. This introspection has lead me to the belief that no one chooses to be who they are.
There are some obvious examples like, "If one grows up in a 'good' house, they will grow up to be a 'good' person". If I meet someone who is mean in real life, I automatically judge them and think "I would never be so mean". But if I had grown up under their circumstances, I would be just like them.
So really, no one can judge anyone. The concept of "criminals" is flawed; it's just well-brought-up people vs not-well-brought-up-people. If someone robs a bank and I think, "I'd never rob a bank, send that man to jail!" or someone kills another person, "I'd never kill another human, death penalty!", is simply not correct because you would kill another person had you been born into the criminal's situation.
Some people might argue that if someone commits homicide, they need to be locked up or killed in order to stop them from killing someone else. Does this person deserve to be locked up just because of the way in which he was brought up?
None of the decisions we make are our own decisions. They were made because of some event or series of events that we witnessed earlier in our life. If I decide to rescue a dog on the side of the road, it's not because I'm a "good person", it's because I was born in a society where that's a normal, "good" thing to do.
We are influenced by everything but the most prominent factor is probably ourselves. People with soft voices don't talk much for fear of not being heard, and that shapes their entire personality and image. People that are naturally beautiful might look with disdain on less beautiful people and pre-judge them as not working hard enough for their beauty. My point is that you can never really judge a person until you are in their shoes, or their body.
I think once everybody accepts the fact that no one is better than anyone else, we can realize that the only way to produce all "good" people is to change our culture. If everyone was brought up on the idea that we are all different and that we are who we are due to "luck of the draw", people would live in peace, I think.
When I think of the word, "bad", a few things come to mind: terrorists, criminals, liars... I'm beating a dead horse now, but none of those "bad" people chose to be bad, they were in victims of culture.
I just felt like writing my feelings on this matter to let it out. Please post your feelings on the matter.
 
|
people are not just products of their environment. certainly that is a big component to it, but not an end all be all.
|
On May 05 2012 08:47 Angel_ wrote:
people are not just products of their environment. certainly that is a big component to it, but not an end all be all.
Can you please elaborate on your viewpoint?
|
Human actions are the result of a mixture of factors: genetic predisposition, the environment one grew up and lives in and then - to a certain extent - free will.
OP's perspective, claiming the total lack of free will, is a theory that gains more and more ground in modern neuroscience. Several studies on brain activity have shown that decisions we think we take have actually been made already seconds ago, without us knowing. It's really weird because it goes against our view on life and ourselves. Plus, it's really creepy, thinking about how you're not really controlling yourself - it might just all be an illusion.
The consequences are even harder. What good are criminal laws if nobody is responsable for their actions? They still might work as a preventive measure (scaring possible criminals) but the concept of punishing people for their decisions by putting them into jail would have to be thrown overboard.
|
all generalizations are wrong.
|
You are assuming that we have no actual control over our own actions, that we have no free will. In my opinion, that's impossible, and if it is somehow true, it is useless to argue about it. You can't prove that free will exists; it's like proving the existence of God.If I say that there is an invisible rabbit that is in the center of our solar system, and that he is represented by the sun, you can't disprove me. I could say it can't be detected, but it's there. Likewise with free will.
Predetermination cannot exist due to entropy, chaos, etc, so I don't think that's really a factor in our lives. While it is true to a degree that we are influenced by our upbringing, there are some things that we know are true, like how it is wrong to murder or rape. If you murder an ex-girlfriend, even if you grew up as a child of an abusive father, you have still done something that you knew was wrong. Most of us also grow up in a society where we are told what is wrong, so that our society can function, i.e. it is wrong to steal. For that reason, I would hold basically everyone in the "West" accountable for any wrong doing. I would not hesitate to lock up a killer.
It would incredibly dangerous to believe that no one is better than anyone else. It is fact that I am better than some people. If I get an A in a class, and someone else got a B, I am better (at least as assessed by the teacher) than that person at that subject. That person could probably have gotten an A, unless that person is inherently more stupid than me, which also makes me "better." This "equality" thing reminds of this short story. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron
|
On May 05 2012 08:54 MisterD wrote:
all generalizations are wrong.
I see what you did there
|
On May 05 2012 08:54 MisterD wrote:
all generalizations are wrong.
Well that's a generalization 
I think this mostly comes down to philosophical stance, and how much free will it is stated we have. Locke/Hobbes Rousseau, Voltaire, the classics, all sort of come down to the "free will or no free will" And if we don't, are we inherently good or inherently evil?
|
What a bunch of defeatist crap. 1/5.
Do you really think the world would look the way it does if everyone played the hand that was given to them? Lots of people are dealt shitty cards and still take home pots. Sure some are born with AK/AA but history shows that many river cards defy the odds and many AK's are folded after the flop comes up all suited.
Take what you've observed and use it as a help to understand other people instead.
|
On May 05 2012 08:57 Chocolate wrote:It would incredibly dangerous to believe that no one is better than anyone else. It is fact that I am better than some people. If I get an A in a class, and someone else got a B, I am better (at least as assessed by the teacher) than that person at that subject. That person could probably have gotten an A, unless that person is inherently more stupid than me, which also makes me "better." This "equality" thing reminds of this short story. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron
But would you have gotten an A if you had grown up in the B student's circumstances? If a kid has parents and/or life experiences that don't advocate working hard in school, they're "going to get a B". You've probably had some life experience that told you that working hard in school is good, and thus you got an A.
|
On May 05 2012 08:58 Thrill wrote:
What a bunch of defeatist crap. 1/5.
Do you really think the world would look the way it does if everyone played the hand that was given to them? Lots of people are dealt shitty cards and still take home pots. Sure some are born with AK/AA but history shows that many river cards defy the odds and many AK's are folded after the flop comes up all suited.
Take what you've observed and use it as a help to understand other people instead.
I would also argue this. There is good in every community, and although some hands are multitudes better than others, being a criminal is not based solely on background.
|
Yup, I've come to this same realization over the past few years. When it comes to it, no one actually has a choice in what they do. Their is no spiritual force driving their actions based on some arbitrary morale code. Who we are is based on two things that we can not change: what we've experienced in life, and our genes. Every decision we make is essentially inevitable, because all the inputs leading up to a decision at the moment have already been made. We cannot change our past, so we cannot change our future. We're essentially a super-complicated input-output system, almost like a computer or a plant with millions and millions of complex stimuli affecting our every decision. There is no real "choice". We don't make arbitrary decisions, instead they have been influenced by things beyond our own control.
But in daily life, it doesn't get you anywhere go on living thinking you don't have a choice. So might as well just play along ;p
|
On May 05 2012 08:54 MisterD wrote:
all generalizations are wrong.
lol!
But to the OP, it's good to have empathy, but I don't think you need to completely abandon the idea of responsibility and free will to do that. If you believe that we are all completely helpless products of our environment, then what impetus is there to suppress our tendencies to cause harm, or to do benevolent acts? Your thinking seems like a pathway in to not putting effort into anything, because why bother if it is all predetermined? Yes it's good to be forgiving and understanding, but I believe there is such a thing as an evil act, and a choice made to do it or not.
|
On May 05 2012 09:05 AegonC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 08:57 Chocolate wrote:It would incredibly dangerous to believe that no one is better than anyone else. It is fact that I am better than some people. If I get an A in a class, and someone else got a B, I am better (at least as assessed by the teacher) than that person at that subject. That person could probably have gotten an A, unless that person is inherently more stupid than me, which also makes me "better." This "equality" thing reminds of this short story. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron But would you have gotten an A if you had grown up in the B student's circumstances? If a kid has parents and/or life experiences that don't advocate working hard in school, they're "going to get a B". You've probably had some life experience that told you that working hard in school is good, and thus you got an A.
Meh. I'd somewhat disagree. Although this is a trend, it is by no means an absolute. In my AP classes, I have friends who ahve parents who dont' give a shit. They didn't graduate from college. And they dont' care. Their kids still manage to do well.
Then there are people with rich educated parents who try so hard to make them care and they refuse. And I have parents who highly value education, yet I havent' done as well as some people from theoretically superior households, because I have been quite lazy at times. It is by no means clear cut.
|
On May 05 2012 09:05 AegonC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 08:57 Chocolate wrote:It would incredibly dangerous to believe that no one is better than anyone else. It is fact that I am better than some people. If I get an A in a class, and someone else got a B, I am better (at least as assessed by the teacher) than that person at that subject. That person could probably have gotten an A, unless that person is inherently more stupid than me, which also makes me "better." This "equality" thing reminds of this short story. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron But would you have gotten an A if you had grown up in the B student's circumstances? If a kid has parents and/or life experiences that don't advocate working hard in school, they're "going to get a B". You've probably had some life experience that told you that working hard in school is good, and thus you got an A.
I'm curious if you've been exposed to a lot of Psychology/Sociology recently.
|
On May 05 2012 09:07 Mothra wrote:
Yes it's good to be forgiving and understanding, but I believe there is such a thing as an evil act, and a choice made to do it or not.
As do I. The difference is that I believe that one can't be held morally responsible for that choice. Anyone would have made the choice if they were in the evil-doer's shoes.
|
this is horseshit, but let's pretend for a second that it isn't
let's say that i (considered by my friends, family, and peers to be very intelligent, not trying to brag, but this piece of information is crucial to my point) am somehow removed from my life and replaced with someone else (for the purpose of the point i am making, let's say that he is below average intelligence/IQ)
do you think that if he were placed into my life now, with somehow all of the exact experiences and timing that my life had, that he would continue to make the exact same decisions that i will for the rest of my/his life? do you really believe that would happen, even given the difference in "brain power"?
On May 05 2012 09:10 Mothra wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 09:05 AegonC wrote:On May 05 2012 08:57 Chocolate wrote:It would incredibly dangerous to believe that no one is better than anyone else. It is fact that I am better than some people. If I get an A in a class, and someone else got a B, I am better (at least as assessed by the teacher) than that person at that subject. That person could probably have gotten an A, unless that person is inherently more stupid than me, which also makes me "better." This "equality" thing reminds of this short story. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron But would you have gotten an A if you had grown up in the B student's circumstances? If a kid has parents and/or life experiences that don't advocate working hard in school, they're "going to get a B". You've probably had some life experience that told you that working hard in school is good, and thus you got an A. I'm curious if you've been exposed to a lot of Psychology/Sociology recently.
we usually get a lot of pseudo-intellectual, philosophical, and psychological threads on TL every year around finals time
|
On May 05 2012 09:05 AegonC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 08:57 Chocolate wrote:It would incredibly dangerous to believe that no one is better than anyone else. It is fact that I am better than some people. If I get an A in a class, and someone else got a B, I am better (at least as assessed by the teacher) than that person at that subject. That person could probably have gotten an A, unless that person is inherently more stupid than me, which also makes me "better." This "equality" thing reminds of this short story. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harrison_Bergeron But would you have gotten an A if you had grown up in the B student's circumstances? If a kid has parents and/or life experiences that don't advocate working hard in school, they're "going to get a B". You've probably had some life experience that told you that working hard in school is good, and thus you got an A.
My brother has the exact same parents as me who advocate the same values, yet consistently does worse in school and and on standardized tests than me. I don't think it can purely be environment, although that can be a factor. I'm talking about the conscious decision to either play starcraft/browseTL/whatever or study. If you think we don't have decisions, then I recommend you read my previous post on my take.
|
On May 05 2012 09:13 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:
this is horseshit, but let's pretend for a second that it isn't
let's say that i (considered by my friends, family, and peers to be very intelligent, not trying to brag, but this piece of information is crucial to my point) am somehow removed from my life and replaced with someone else (for the purpose of the point i am making, let's say that he is below average intelligence/IQ)
do you think that if he were placed into my life now, with somehow all of the exact experiences and timing that my life had, that he would continue to make the exact same decisions that i will for the rest of my/his life? do you really believe that would happen, even given the difference in "brain power"?
Thank you for that metaphor.
The example you used isn't realistic. The person that had a "lower than average IQ" has a lower than average IQ because of genes and/or life experience. No one is really an individual, we are all the sum of our life experiences and genes.
|
On May 05 2012 09:15 AegonC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2012 09:13 LaSt)ChAnCe wrote:
this is horseshit, but let's pretend for a second that it isn't
let's say that i (considered by my friends, family, and peers to be very intelligent, not trying to brag, but this piece of information is crucial to my point) am somehow removed from my life and replaced with someone else (for the purpose of the point i am making, let's say that he is below average intelligence/IQ)
do you think that if he were placed into my life now, with somehow all of the exact experiences and timing that my life had, that he would continue to make the exact same decisions that i will for the rest of my/his life? do you really believe that would happen, even given the difference in "brain power"? Thank you for that metaphor. The example you used isn't realistic. The person that had a "lower than average IQ" has a lower than average IQ because of genes and/or life experience. No one is really an individual, we are all the sum of our life experiences and genes.
i already said that he had the exact same life experiences as me, so the only difference is genetic
answer the question, please
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
