On January 12 2012 12:50 jrkirby wrote: Well, whatever floats your boat.
You probably shouldn't mind my over-opinionated self-worth motivated derogatory comments towards large groups of people with a slightly differing value system and educational goals.
TC:DR (too complicated, didn't read): I was just making myself feel better by dissing sociology majors.
Wow, this turned from awesome prothread that seemed impossible for someone to troll and be fed into 3 page feeding of the troll. I was hoping to come back to more awesome replies. Instead I get a ton of 1-3 liners . GL Pastamancer!
I find I have a similar problem. Not really sure if it's like yours though.
How well you articulate yourself has no bearing on what your thought process is. There's a bunch of factors I'll get to in a moment, but if someone can really convey their thoughts well, verbally or written, then no matter what their ideas are, stupid or brilliant, anyone will be able to understand. There would never be this issue that they don't follow you. It's your fault.
If you can't articulate yourself well, but you have perfectly reasonable thought processes, it's a huge coin flip on whether that person has a similar method of reasoning as you, and pasted your arguments in a way that he or she reached the same conclusion.
If you can't articulate yourself well, and you think you have a "different" thought process than people, then it's an absolute blank whenever you try to explain something.
But how you convey your thoughts is never consistent.
Conviction. Did you take this stance and argue because it's truly something you care about and believe in, or are you just arguing for the sake of arguing?
Self-Interest Do you truly care about, or knew this topic, or did you simply learn about the topic with very little interest, and try to write from there?
Comfort Are you communicating with an unknown audience, or a group of friends you're comfortable talking to?
People who can articulate their thoughts well have no problems in any case, but people who can't will realize that tthe more personal situations make it easier to express themselves..
There's more, but I don't remember. These were things I realized after spending 9 years with my English tutor before I realized things like this were pointless. Anecdotal, but I averaged 65s on papers for her, until I got to write something I actually cared about, and 90, which really confused her. I'm shit at conveying ideas, but I don't try.
The most harmful way to think is to go, "what if I'm special and everyone else is crazy." Confront your problems, deduce their cause(s), and fix them. Deciding it's someone else's fault should always be a last resort.
You can write fifty chalkboards to explain your reasoning, or you can realize it's probably your explanations that are bad, and because your logic isn't super straightforward and logical, that no one understands what you try to explain.
On January 12 2012 13:18 3FFA wrote: Wow, this turned from awesome prothread that seemed impossible for someone to troll and be fed into 3 page feeding of the troll. I was hoping to come back to more awesome replies. Instead I get a ton of 1-3 liners . GL Pastamancer!
It's still awesome. Don't let one debbie downer ruin it for you!
Blisse there are many more factors than that and even the most articulate people can falter in communication chiefly personal relationships as there is always a ton of shit going through people's heads not to mention body language.
On January 12 2012 13:32 Plexa wrote: I wondered how this thread was 10 pages long. Then I saw that torte was responsible for 4 of those pages. (And starstruck 1.2 pages)
We have dialogues going on in the blog forums bro. Join in!
On January 12 2012 13:18 3FFA wrote: Wow, this turned from awesome prothread that seemed impossible for someone to troll and be fed into 3 page feeding of the troll. I was hoping to come back to more awesome replies. Instead I get a ton of 1-3 liners . GL Pastamancer!
It's still awesome. Don't let one debbie downer ruin it for you!
Blisse there are many more factors than that and even the most articulate people can falter in communication chiefly personal relationships as there is always a ton of shit going through people's heads not to mention body language.
If you're deeply affected by a personal issues, it should be immediately clear to you that's the problem. And I feel like Torte believes this is recurring, so unless it was something that will scar him for the rest of his life, I don't think so.
Body language doesn't destroy your argument. If you can present an argument amazingly, it really doesn't matter what kind of body language you put out, unless the body language is completely distracting (for example, running on top of student's desks).
And I already stated that there are more factors, but those are the most immediately relevant or stood out to me from what I read and remember of his blog.
There's a huge bunch of shit going through everyone's head, always, but that doesn't stop people from doing well, does it? Rise above the challenge.
When you come off as uneasy when you are trying to make your point and your audience is unresponsive they will become uneasy as well. This goes back to conviction.
Notice how someone starts yelling another person will start yelling over them. Lunch room effect. Same thing applies to those who are emotionally attached to the topic as you pointed out.
Confident, comfortable body language goes a long way man.
When you cannot put everything in place in your head as you are speaking. A lot of mumbo jumbo comes out.
On January 12 2012 13:32 Plexa wrote: I wondered how this thread was 10 pages long. Then I saw that torte was responsible for 4 of those pages. (And starstruck 1.2 pages)
And now people will quote you and reply to you because you are an admin and special and replying makes them feel special and this thread will be 20 pages.
Original Message From South: Seems reasonable. Guy calling you a douchebag is somehow "well formulated"; my points somehow weren't. I mean how many published papers do you have that contribute to anything worthwhile? 0. I could see it if you were an up-and-comer in the scientific community or the next literary genius...but you're not. So why are you wasting your (assumed, based on your posts/ability to have enough time to have 20000 posts on an internet forum) youth when you could be enjoying the best years of your life? Obviously I struck a chord or you'd be a little more open to a spirited debate. If you were so intelligent, why would you avoid discourse? I think you'd welcome it.
Communications point is to convey a message or feeling to another individual. By speaking in a "language" they don't understand you're defeating the purpose of the discussion as a whole unless the point isn't to convey a message, in which case you're just wasting each other's time. Though it may be hard for you to dumb yourself down, it's going to be necessary if you want to participate.
I wouldn't waste your time in the class if you don't plan to participate unless you're only there for a credit and not personal satisfaction.
Who cares if i know how to solve world hunger if i'm in a room full of brazilians and only speak taiwanese??
On January 12 2012 14:48 Tizer542 wrote: Communications point is to convey a message or feeling to another individual. By speaking in a "language" they don't understand you're defeating the purpose of the discussion as a whole unless the point isn't to convey a message, in which case you're just wasting each other's time. Though it may be hard for you to dumb yourself down, it's going to be necessary if you want to participate.
I wouldn't waste your time in the class if you don't plan to participate unless you're only there for a credit and not personal satisfaction.
Who cares if i know how to solve world hunger if i'm in a room full of brazilians and only speak taiwanese??
Yah, I already figured that out thanks to everyone. I think I should add an update to the main post :B
If you're speaking up only when you disagree and then throw big words around, it'll seem as if you're only speaking to show off your knowledge and to undermine your prof and your classmates. This will generally make you seem like a pretentious asshole, especially if your classmates can't figure out wtf you're talking about, because then it's like you're not even making an attempt at a dialogue but just want to hear yourself jabber.
There are two direct solutions to this: (1) simplify your speech or (2) don't talk in class -- or rather, only talk when asked to. An indirect solution would be to socialize with your classmates before class to let them know you're a nice guy who's not just sitting around trying to act smart for the sake of ... well, appearing smart, I suppose.
EDIT: Reading your post brought this immediately to mind:
Not saying you're anything like this, but ... you see what I mean? Also, Robert Fagles is pretty awesome, ngl. :B
On January 12 2012 09:50 Roe wrote: Maybe Orwell has some advice for you 1. Never use a metaphor, simile, or other figure of speech which you are used to seeing in print. 2. Never use a long word where a short one will do. 3. If it is possible to cut a word out, always cut it out. 4. Never use the passive where you can use the active. 5. Never use a foreign phrase, a scientific word, or a jargon word if you can think of an everyday English equivalent. 6. Break any of these rules sooner than say anything outright barbarous.”
To add to this, read Harold Evans' Essential English for Journalists, Editors and Writers. LINK
It describes how to communicate clearly and precisely, with a lot of good examples. He was the former editor of the Sunday Times and Times, so knows what he's talking about.
All I can contribute is to recommend fluffing up on effective social communication. I'd never really cared or bothered 'till I realized how lacking I was, in my own encounters.
Read books on 'being an effective communicator' , the only one I've read so far is "How to talk to Anyone" by Leil Lowdnes, and though it's mainly big-cat business oriented, it's still good. [tpb is your fraieund, get moar on teh cheapuuuu]
The thought of being a 'professional communicator' or a 'communication counselor' never really dawned on me as important or significant enough for a career 'till my older brother summed up his Business School applications by describing himself as one (he does the press releases for ~the~ company, English/Chinese). I realized effective, higher-order communication is just so essential between humans, and we take it for granted, but most of us REALLY aren't that good communicators. So I recommend we both get better (:
A far more overarching point I've got though today's blog section was: fundamental distance from and dissatisfaction with your current life situation. 'Failing at becoming a pro CS player' and the regret that entailed, or 'I've failed big time and can't get a job, halp?', again being quite unhappy with how he ~passed~ his college life, and now you, with the anecdote on the bus and feeling that sort of engagement isn't truly satisfying. Fuck, I'm a college student, I've got exams in 5 days and I haven't started revising, I've procrastinated this whole week. Now it's certainly not as bad as other people's situations, but I'd much rather have this sort of identity crisis sooner rather than later, cause the recovery process is really empowering.
The only thing I can propose is reach out and search, find something you DO find fulfilling and truly worth your time, and get friends who you can relate to about that. I'm still in the process, but I feel that's got to be a good way to be driven and passionate about what you're doing. The worrying thing is if/when you realize that vocation doesn't coincide with your life's current tract.
Shoutout to StarStruck for his good and though-provoking posting, u too Torte, good EffOrt.
i agree with what rek said about simple language and big words. hemmingway believed in that basic concept, and he was drunk all the time and owned. outside of books (and even then) no one likes long winded speech, even if it is elegant words
English speaking students share this tendancy to think university is ancient greece lyceum. Just sit, write and listen and stfu in class. That's basics. You'll be giving speeches when people pay you to do so. Not the other way around.
On January 13 2012 00:05 Boonbag wrote: English speaking students share this tendancy to think university is ancient greece lyceum. Just sit, write and listen and stfu in class. That's basics. You'll be giving speeches when people pay you to do so. Not the other way around.
Just because it's a different system than you're used to doesn't mean it's as dumb and pointless as you're implying. If all university is about is listening to your profs jabber on about their subjects and then parroting what they say back at them in your papers, then we may as well just make university an extension of high school. Many of the world's top schools (e.g. in the USA, top research universities and especially liberal arts colleges) use this sort of Socratic method in the classroom even in subjects like mathematics to encourage discussion amongst the students -- and guess where many of the professors of such institutions come from? Yeah, from other top research universities and liberal arts colleges. It's not just about teaching students to be sponges, though that's part of it; it's also about training another generation of scholars to think for themselves.
Of course, you have an issue when one side doesn't want to talk -- which is the case here -- or if your prof handles the class badly and just lets anyone speak, but otherwise, it works decently well if your classmates are doing their readings.
EPT
. GL Pastamancer! 
