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On December 11 2011 03:43 Elsid wrote:Show nested quote +On December 10 2011 19:51 phershey wrote:On December 10 2011 19:09 Recognizable wrote:On December 10 2011 18:54 phershey wrote:On December 10 2011 17:51 Coramoor wrote:
if sc2ranks doesn't lie, you're in platinum, you should probably be working on Build orders and macro, rather then gosu unit control I think Korean style is to pick 1 build order for each match up and master the ins and out of that build order. I play 20-30 ladder games a day. I work on my mechanics and macro everyday. I actually 5-0 into diamond on other account and 2-0 in my placements on KR account. When I took coaching from ST Rainbow he said I didn't play like a platinum player. I believe my MMR is ruined because of the number of games I've played. It is what it is. Truth is my TvT is probable gold level, TvZ platinum/diamond TvP diamond/masters and that averages out to plat. Why not work on build order, macro and gosu unit control? You can't work on everything at once, you have to split things in pieces. With everything in life. Just look at your school books, lets take calculus for example. Where they trying to teach you everything at once? No first was explained what unknown is, then what a function is, then you get different type of functions, etc. The problem with people trying to get better at starcraft is that they try to do everything. Right now i'm high master and the way i improved from the very beginning was this: Day9 told me to never queu, so the next games i focused on never queueing. Day9 told me to look at the minimap and at my supply, the next games i focused really hard on this Ofcourse you can try to focus at more stuff at once. But this depends on the person. For instance, i was learning myself to wall and to not queue. Then afterwards when i was good at not queuing I tried to keep my money low whilst constantly making scv's, slowly i learned how to macro. Then when i was good at macro i learned myself to walk around with my army whilst doing this. You need to take everything in slow steps. I remember i first thought i was just learning myself new tricks and not getting better at all lol. But when all these little tricks add up you become better. Right now i'm focusing really hard to use F-keys. What i mean by focusing hard is that I do everything else as good as I can. But instead use the F-keys to move around. This means that sometimes i will use the minimap like I used too. But that means i force myself to go back and use the f-keys. To learn something different and breaking out of your old habits is really hard you actually work really hard to tell your brain not to do the old stuff, but once you do it becomes your new comfort zone. Also, APM is nothing more then knowing what to do next. Not how fast your fingers move. Seeing as how you are platinum, your macro still sucks. ONLY focus on trying to improve your maco. And when improving your macro, try to split everything macro related into small steps and focus on one of these things until you are comfortable and then go on to the next one. LOL I'm in plat so my macro MUST suck. please tell me how to improve my macro. http://drop.sc/71654 I'm sorry but that is not good play, that is not good macro whatsoever. You played ridiculously greedy and quite frankly really stupidly. If your opponent had scouted whatsoever you would've lost that game. You add on rax waaaay too late and your expansion pattern and timing is beyond silly , it's just super risky not solid whatsoever
I think you guys missed the point of this blog. You macro-enforcers are like the maurader kill squad on the train level. Just patrolling TL telling people to macro better, regardless of what the thread is about.
This thread is about pushing the limits of unit control and multitasking.
Save your generalized, vague and not so helpful macro harder advice for the bronzies on the strat page. If I gave you any Boxer replay and you didnt know who it was you would have the same useless critizism. I'm sure if I showed you Nestea's play on Shakuras vs MVP you'd have something to say about him floating 10,000 minerals, if you didnt know who he was. The point I'm making is, you forum heroes are assessing the person, not the words being said. If Select was saying all this, I guess it would be accepted by more people. Even then-- haters are gonna hate. Select is the best NA terran. He's fast and has topnotch multitasking. I'd rather strive to emulate his play, than try to decipher "macro harder" on TL.
It's weird how the English speaking SC2 community stresses macro, yet when I look at these Korean kids pwning the world, they have good macro and superior micro. Weird how they find the time to play fast, macro and multitask. I'm not against macro. I played 100s of custom games working on my builds and macro. But I also do that while controlling a banshee, so my multitasking skills improve. I'm not against macro, I'm for pushing the limits of macro. I hit a 17 minute max on the rep. That's my new ladder benchmark. Losira hit a 13 minute max agaisnt Ailuj at MLG prov. That's what I'll strive for.
Macro has become the most useless word on TL, because critics/trolls overuse to the point it lost its meaning.
The idea is to build the biggest army as fast as possible, with an economy to support it. Your criticism is I played too risky.
Well, I should only play and plan for what my opponent does, not what he could have done. Losira hitting a 13 minute max means he took big economic risks to be able to support that size army that fast. He played his opponent, not what the opponent should have done.
I took a risk, a calculated one. I've played that map over 600 times against protoss. I'm sure 95% of protoss don't blindly scout their 5/6th base at that point. So there is a 5% chance of it being scouted--actually less than that I seen Naniwa scout there at TSL3, the only time I've seen so far. This game does a have a risk-reward aspect to it. So as long as he didn't kill me with a 4 gate in the first 7 minutes i won the game. Shakuras is a 2 base turtle map. I can't just stim up his natural ramp. I thought to myself what could a Korean do if he wanted to. Take ninja third. So I decided to beat him by counting coup--steal his minerals. That base paid for itself and then some. If he took his forces up there too early, I would have used it as a dummy magnet to get his units out of position and sniped his natural. You're right. I had too much minerals. When I do that same strat on the ladder, I'll adjust, make more rax and try for a sub 15 minute max. 16:30 is my practice game record.
At the end of the day i won. I'm platinum, and he was a superior diamond protoss. The guy played super fast and had great multitasking. He played solid and his unit composition usually counters my biocentric style. I took a risk and it allowed me to outmacro him. Not only did I beat him, I made him think I was a master level player.
Fed a troll. Now I gotta log on and work on macroing hard...and multitasking....and unit control.
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I did say your control sucked.
You're still not taking in our advice. We're criticizing your macro for a reason, and you should be thanking us for it rather than fighting back. Even a high master player would want to continue work on their macro, and if someone gave them some really useful critiques then they would be thankful if they were earnestly trying to get to GM.
This is why I said your attitude will prevent you from getting better lol. Like can you get a clue and understand that we're trying to help you? Like your reply to the past posts directly proves my point jesus christ. Sadly you still won't take our advice.
If you would listen you might be able to promote yourself in 30 games rather than another 100. But you can't see that as a possibility can you? I really like people like you, people like you are very interesting characters.
Again my advice is to stop making these statements "Not only did I beat him, I made him think I was a master level player." you're letting it get into your head and you're not focusing on how you could have played better. You're saying this to yourself as you watch the replay "haha I'm awesome I made a cool strategical decision and I beat someone better than me! Cool!!!". Be more humble are realize that if you want to improve your unit control and multitask is to drop the current attitude you have.
Here is my thought process when watched the replay where I beat a GM protoss player in a Bo3 despite being a terrible Master player.
"Oh my god... his mechanics are so much better than mine.."
"My macro is failing, went over 500 min for a few seconds, probably means 7-9 larvae sitting around doing nothing"
"I shouldn't have focused so much on being aggressive, I was not looking at the game as a whole"
"I managed to make 10 mistakes and one important right decision to win the game, that is horrible."
"Next time I face someone like him I need to play better, or I will lose."
Notice how I am not commenting at all on how I may have picked off some key structures, or did a fantastic job on droning and ninja korean expoing (lol). Anything positive I may have done in those games are things I should not focus on, its a waste of time.
Like you seriously just need to stop being so defensive to criticism. I even called it lol, you would refer to us as "haters". You call us forum scoundrels when really you're the one talking down on us as people when we're just taking our time to look at your game. Then you do some kind of pseudo martyr bullshit with the line "Fed a troll" to further try to cover your bases. I mean I can see right through you dude, maybe you just can't see it yourself.
If you don't come up with a good argument for what I've said or come to accept that there may be something wrong in the way you view yourself as a SC2 player then you must be either a troll or just really stupid.
Fed a troll, I'm gonna go grab a beer.
EDIT: "This thread is about pushing the limits of unit control and multitasking."
Thread title is asking for help with macro.
What.
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On December 11 2011 06:01 phershey wrote:Show nested quote +On December 11 2011 03:43 Elsid wrote:On December 10 2011 19:51 phershey wrote:On December 10 2011 19:09 Recognizable wrote:On December 10 2011 18:54 phershey wrote:On December 10 2011 17:51 Coramoor wrote:
if sc2ranks doesn't lie, you're in platinum, you should probably be working on Build orders and macro, rather then gosu unit control I think Korean style is to pick 1 build order for each match up and master the ins and out of that build order. I play 20-30 ladder games a day. I work on my mechanics and macro everyday. I actually 5-0 into diamond on other account and 2-0 in my placements on KR account. When I took coaching from ST Rainbow he said I didn't play like a platinum player. I believe my MMR is ruined because of the number of games I've played. It is what it is. Truth is my TvT is probable gold level, TvZ platinum/diamond TvP diamond/masters and that averages out to plat. Why not work on build order, macro and gosu unit control? You can't work on everything at once, you have to split things in pieces. With everything in life. Just look at your school books, lets take calculus for example. Where they trying to teach you everything at once? No first was explained what unknown is, then what a function is, then you get different type of functions, etc. The problem with people trying to get better at starcraft is that they try to do everything. Right now i'm high master and the way i improved from the very beginning was this: Day9 told me to never queu, so the next games i focused on never queueing. Day9 told me to look at the minimap and at my supply, the next games i focused really hard on this Ofcourse you can try to focus at more stuff at once. But this depends on the person. For instance, i was learning myself to wall and to not queue. Then afterwards when i was good at not queuing I tried to keep my money low whilst constantly making scv's, slowly i learned how to macro. Then when i was good at macro i learned myself to walk around with my army whilst doing this. You need to take everything in slow steps. I remember i first thought i was just learning myself new tricks and not getting better at all lol. But when all these little tricks add up you become better. Right now i'm focusing really hard to use F-keys. What i mean by focusing hard is that I do everything else as good as I can. But instead use the F-keys to move around. This means that sometimes i will use the minimap like I used too. But that means i force myself to go back and use the f-keys. To learn something different and breaking out of your old habits is really hard you actually work really hard to tell your brain not to do the old stuff, but once you do it becomes your new comfort zone. Also, APM is nothing more then knowing what to do next. Not how fast your fingers move. Seeing as how you are platinum, your macro still sucks. ONLY focus on trying to improve your maco. And when improving your macro, try to split everything macro related into small steps and focus on one of these things until you are comfortable and then go on to the next one. LOL I'm in plat so my macro MUST suck. please tell me how to improve my macro. http://drop.sc/71654 I'm sorry but that is not good play, that is not good macro whatsoever. You played ridiculously greedy and quite frankly really stupidly. If your opponent had scouted whatsoever you would've lost that game. You add on rax waaaay too late and your expansion pattern and timing is beyond silly , it's just super risky not solid whatsoever I think you guys missed the point of this blog. You macro-enforcers are like the maurader kill squad on the train level. Just patrolling TL telling people to macro better, regardless of what the thread is about. This thread is about pushing the limits of unit control and multitasking. Save your generalized, vague and not so helpful macro harder advice for the bronzies on the strat page. If I gave you any Boxer replay and you didnt know who it was you would have the same useless critizism. I'm sure if I showed you Nestea's play on Shakuras vs MVP you'd have something to say about him floating 10,000 minerals, if you didnt know who he was. The point I'm making is, you forum heroes are assessing the person, not the words being said. If Select was saying all this, I guess it would be accepted by more people. Even then-- haters are gonna hate. Select is the best NA terran. He's fast and has topnotch multitasking. I'd rather strive to emulate his play, than try to decipher "macro harder" on TL. It's weird how the English speaking SC2 community stresses macro, yet when I look at these Korean kids pwning the world, they have good macro and superior micro. Weird how they find the time to play fast, macro and multitask. I'm not against macro. I played 100s of custom games working on my builds and macro. But I also do that while controlling a banshee, so my multitasking skills improve. I'm not against macro, I'm for pushing the limits of macro. I hit a 17 minute max on the rep. That's my new ladder benchmark. Losira hit a 13 minute max agaisnt Ailuj at MLG prov. That's what I'll strive for. Macro has become the most useless word on TL, because critics/trolls overuse to the point it lost its meaning. The idea is to build the biggest army as fast as possible, with an economy to support it. Your criticism is I played too risky. Well, I should only play and plan for what my opponent does, not what he could have done. Losira hitting a 13 minute max means he took big economic risks to be able to support that size army that fast. He played his opponent, not what the opponent should have done. I took a risk, a calculated one. I've played that map over 600 times against protoss. I'm sure 95% of protoss don't blindly scout their 5/6th base at that point. So there is a 5% chance of it being scouted--actually less than that I seen Naniwa scout there at TSL3, the only time I've seen so far. This game does a have a risk-reward aspect to it. So as long as he didn't kill me with a 4 gate in the first 7 minutes i won the game. Shakuras is a 2 base turtle map. I can't just stim up his natural ramp. I thought to myself what could a Korean do if he wanted to. Take ninja third. So I decided to beat him by counting coup--steal his minerals. That base paid for itself and then some. If he took his forces up there too early, I would have used it as a dummy magnet to get his units out of position and sniped his natural. You're right. I had too much minerals. When I do that same strat on the ladder, I'll adjust, make more rax and try for a sub 15 minute max. 16:30 is my practice game record. At the end of the day i won. I'm platinum, and he was a superior diamond protoss. The guy played super fast and had great multitasking. He played solid and his unit composition usually counters my biocentric style. I took a risk and it allowed me to out macro him. Not only did I beat him, I made him think I was a master level player. Fed a troll. Now I gotta log on and work on macroing hard...and multitasking....and unit control.
Well you see this isn't the strat forum , therefore i wasn't critiquing your play and telling you how to improve I was simply informing you that your macro isn't good enough to be considered anything but sucky.
And yes boxer does have shitty macro at times and if he had better macro he would have better results in sc2 or are you implying that boxer plays the game perfectly? No macro is not everything , of course other things are important but being able to micro with a god will do you no good if your opponent has 10 times your units. Also you may want to note how good Selects macro is. Select is as insanely good as he is because of his top notch mechanics , his execution is really really good but he would be nowhere without how crisp his macro is.
Also your risk wasn't that well calculated because you didn't scout much whatsoever, nor did your opponent luckily for you.You can't play to your opponent if you're not scouting them appropriately which you may want to note does indeed involve multi-tasking. Just because your opponent didn't scout your hidden base does't make it a good idea also if i remember correctly it was your 2nd base not your third.
As guy who describes his micro as above average i can't imagine what you think average micro looks like. You just come across as this arrogant guy who rates himself much more highly than he realistically is. It's hard to critique that replay because of the ninja third , it's a completely silly strategy to apply to a BO1 ladder match. It's so very flimsy and falls apart to so many blind all-ins and falls apart completely when scouted. He doesn't even have to commit that much to stop that build, simply having a probe contesting the towers to see your scv either going out to build it or not returning to base after scouting. There really is no point in playing this way when you have so much more to learn from just playing standard.
If you wanna play a more multi-tasking oriented style i'd recommend you go look up the TvP daily from day9(can't remember the number , may have select in the title) where he goes over a fast medivac build that allows you to tax yours and your opponents multitasking through quick double drops.
No one is saying the only thing you need to do to get better at this game is to macro better , we are however saying your macro is a big hole in your play and that it would be wise to remedy it as it's such a big hole in your play. We're saying you'll improve faster if your macro is better rather than doing cute shit like hidden expos.
You're in plat for a reason , that reason is your plat level play. Also your opponent wasn't super fast and his multi-tasking was never really taxed.
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3 things:
1. Relying on your opponent being bad and praying that he doesn't scout your hidden expo is the definition of gimmicky. Yes, at your level there's probably a high chance of them not scouting it but over time, as players improve, it won't work.
2. Your attitude is frankly awful. Complimenting yourself after a good game is fine, but you should make note of at least 3 mistakes per compliments. Thinking "Goddamn I'm so good at this game " isn't going to help you improve.
3.Micro at your level is close to irrelevant. People on TL tell you to "macro better" because that macroing properly also improves your multitasking and APM. Once you're comfortable macroing off 3 bases, you can worry about cool tricks. Nobody is saying that being fast and having good multitasking is irrelevant; it's just that once you learn the basics (macro), it becomes a lot easier to learn the fancy shit. Also, your micro isn't impressive at all, maybe for a platinum player it is, but please stop deluding yourself. You've apparently played ~800 games this season, all that time could have been better spent trying to improve basic mechanics.
Just as an example, I got up to mid-masters doing the same, (maybe overly) safe builds every game (reactor hellion expo vs zerg, 1rax marauder expand vs protoss, and reaper expand vs terran). Once I started playing better and better players, I started experimenting with new builds, cheeses, etc. but I had solid multitasking and macro to fallback to.
Simply focusing exclusively on macro will drastically improve your multitasking and apm, and learning cool tricks will become a lot easier and will come faster.
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arrogance won't get you anywhere with this, macro is the key to being better, you can have almost no apm and be mid-high masters, then work on your apm from there to improve easier then having gosu micro but losing a lot cause of poor macro, no build orders and bad timing
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On December 11 2011 07:09 eourcs wrote:
3 things:
1. Relying on your opponent being bad and praying that he doesn't scout your hidden expo is the definition of gimmicky. Yes, at your level there's probably a high chance of them not scouting it but over time, as players improve, it won't work.
2. Your attitude is frankly awful. Complimenting yourself after a good game is fine, but you should make note of at least 3 mistakes per compliments. Thinking "Goddamn I'm so good at this game " isn't going to help you improve.
3.Micro at your level is close to irrelevant. People on TL tell you to "macro better" because that macroing properly also improves your multitasking and APM. Once you're comfortable macroing off 3 bases, you can worry about cool tricks. Nobody is saying that being fast and having good multitasking is irrelevant; it's just that once you learn the basics (macro), it becomes a lot easier to learn the fancy shit. Also, your micro isn't impressive at all, maybe for a platinum player it is, but please stop deluding yourself. You've apparently played ~800 games this season, all that time could have been better spent trying to improve basic mechanics.
Just as an example, I got up to mid-masters doing the same, (maybe overly) safe builds every game (reactor hellion expo vs zerg, 1rax marauder expand vs protoss, and reaper expand vs terran). Once I started playing better and better players, I started experimenting with new builds, cheeses, etc. but I had solid multitasking and macro to fallback to.
Simply focusing exclusively on macro will drastically improve your multitasking and apm, and learning cool tricks will become a lot easier and will come faster.
Since my last post an hour ago...
15:39 max army. trimmed a minute and half off.
http://drop.sc/71854
I'll work on my attitude. please give me some feedback on this game so I can work on getting my macro better.
Dude, I'm in platinum for a reason. I have way more room to go. Obviously I'm not that good. With all due respect, I'm talking about closing the gap between foreigners skill cap and Koreans. I'm sure they didn't do your method. You're midmasters is probably a diamond in Korea. I don't know what they do during their 12 hour training days. But it's not just focusing exclusively on macro. We are behind as the foreigner community. I'm challenging us to push are standards higher.
Don't tell me the 10 things I did wrong. Give me 10 examples how to do things better. Not "macro better". Real concrete tools to macro better.
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On December 11 2011 04:27 Falconpauunch wrote:
Even if I can't help you, thank you for showing this trainer off, I never would've found it otherwise.
You're welcome. The whole point of the blog was to provide a "weightroom" for people to focus on their micro.
Apparently, macromongers don't think people should work on it at all. BTW the Darglein Multitasking trainer is great for macro, multitasking, micro, APM, and learning to BM type while doing it...no seriously, it has a mode where you BM as you multitask.
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Sorry but I fail to see how a blog titled "pros help me with macro apm" is a "weightroom for people to focus on micro". In all honesty, are you trying to improve or show off here?
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Ok, i'll be more clear. You suck. Before trying to improve your micro, improve your macro.
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So when I ask please help me with my macro?
you told me I played terrible, blah blah blah.....rax was late....blah
Someone else said blah blah blah on 4 rax way too long..blah.
Lot of generalized critiques, then some real kernels of info I could use. More rax production. OK
20 minutes later, did same strat and used your crticisms to improve my play. get a bigger army faster. Yeah, I come off arrogant. But I listen when someone has something useful to say. Just say "Macro harder" means nothing. I think it's dismissive to assume I have terrible macro from seeing one game. Actually the hate came before a rep was viewed.
I lose to zerg because I don't make tanks. I have terrible ghost control. If Protoss goes archon, chargelot HT, I struggle. I don't understand TvT as well as the othe matchups. All that and my macro is not pefect. I'm aware of these things and working on them. It just baffles me how you guys are just blindly assessing what's wrong with my gameplay.
I have lofty goals and have the balls to share them with the world. You're natural reaction is to tell me to be small.don't focus on micro you're macro is not good enough. So what macro benchmarks do I need to hit before I can work on unit control?
At the end of the day, I believe macro is very important, I spend hours upon hours working on it. But I also work on multitasking other aspects of this game.
I wasn't insinuating pros weren't as good as me. I want to see Morrow or anyone do level 30, just so it's real and acheivable now. Look at 2000 slam dunk contest. Vince Carter changed reality that ngiht. Now those dunks are per usual.
I mentioned Select earlier. Yeah I said " I do realize macro is what's keeping me from getting to the next level. I do see the yin and yang balance of micro and macro. But I believe the higher your APM the more you can have your cake and eat it too. I've been trying to trying to emulate Select's style lately. He's easily one of the fastest terrans right now. At Blizzcon he's showed a more macro style while still playing at the same speed."
I come off arrrogant, but I said upfront I have very cheesy-weak macro base. I didn't play BW, I had terrible, none existent army hotkeys 3 months ago. I paid for some coaching. I've aplied all those things. Now I use army hotkeys. Moved my production hotkeys to do so. Rather than sticking with what I was used to I spent 2 weeks doing customs just working on fixing that. If I thought I was as good as you portray me to think I am, I wouldn't have paid money, take advice and apply it.
I respect this game. SC2 is the hardest game I have ever played. There is always room for improvement.
OK, I'll work on macro. But, getting back to the point, could some fast Terrans post some VoDs of their warm ups and trainers?
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well see there's the problem, i'd recommend doing what day[9] says a lot, make sure you have a plan, you clearly don't have one that works in a lot of matchups, even if shit goes haywire make sure you know what you intend to do, and seriously, use tanks vs zerg, even pros don't try and use ghosts exclusively against banelings, it's a completely insane thought, it's not about how fast you can max, you seem to be hung up on a lot of measurables, it shouldn't be, how fast can i max, it should be how i can i stop him from expanding, or how can i force him to split his army with drops, or how can i knock out a robo bay to slow him down, or probe snipe, or a bunch of other things, i've played a 30 minute game where neither player made it above 125 supply, because of constant engagements, poking and prodding and drops and all kinds of stuff
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hey coramoor, I actually posted a tvz in the spoiler of original post going marine, ghost medvac.
I appreciate what your're say. Sorry for being defensive. It's just when I'm in a game against zerg going bio with no mech its hard to get third or fouth base with no tanks. I'm not sure if that's a macro problem more than a build/strategy problem.
And when I lose to zealot, archon, HT, its usually because of bad hotkey set up, having ghosts/MMM together, trying to stim with Ghost as first unit priority. And my EMP accuracy is terrible.
If I could get better with tanks v zerg and ghost v protoss, I'm sure I'd win more games. Plus...my macro needs work.
Macro is an unmasterable task. There is always room to improve. It goes without saying. I said my goal was to have 160 APM and keep my mins low. Keeping my mins low implies solid macro.
I think a big mix up is what I meant in the title. I didnt mean my macro and apm. I meant my Macro-APM. The APM level when you're macroing mid game. Sure it could be considered spam. But I think its APM generated from constant production, and cycling along with army postioning. It just baffles me how Major and Select is at 250 APM when nothing is going on 8 minutes into the game.
I know...One would say don't worry about it. Focus on macro and forget about APM.
But I just wonder if Koreans get the best results, what do they focus on? What does a platinum Korean do to get better? What regiment does a noob from Korea go through to get as skilled and knowledgable? I have to believe its more than just macro.
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Since my last post an hour ago... 15:39 max army. trimmed a minute and half off. http://drop.sc/71854I'll work on my attitude. please give me some feedback on this game so I can work on getting my macro better. Dude, I'm in platinum for a reason. I have way more room to go. Obviously I'm not that good. With all due respect, I'm talking about closing the gap between foreigners skill cap and Koreans. I'm sure they didn't do your method. You're midmasters is probably a diamond in Korea. I don't know what they do during their 12 hour training days. But it's not just focusing exclusively on macro. We are behind as the foreigner community. I'm challenging us to push are standards higher. Don't tell me the 10 things I did wrong. Give me 10 examples how to do things better. Not "macro better". Real concrete tools to macro better.
Allow me to practice doing a compliment sandwich:
*Nice to hear your going to work on your attitude (compliment, bread of the sandwich)
*Are you kidding me? With all due respect, your platinum is probably silver in Korea so it's better if you don't play the "league" game here (insult/criticism, meat of the sandwich)
*You asking for help macroing should have nothing to do with pro's practicing 10 hours a day. The pro's have the basics of macro and mechanics down while you, clearly, do not. So until you can do those things, you should be spending all your time focusing on them. A masters player going only mauarder can beat a bronze/silver player going only zealot: macro is a large part of the battle in starcraft 2. If your calling the community to push our standards higher, then a blog asking for help isn't the place for that. (insult/criticism, 2nd piece of meat of the sandwich).
*This is an open faced sandwich, i.e. no 2nd compliment piece of bread
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On December 11 2011 13:31 phershey wrote:
But I just wonder if Koreans get the best results, what do they focus on? What does a platinum Korean do to get better? What regiment does a noob from Korea go through to get as skilled and knowledgable? I have to believe its more than just macro.
as someone who plays on the korean server, at high plat playing mostly diamonds, slowly moving up, they are a lot better in kr, the one thing that all koreans seem to have, is a really tight build, it could be a terrible build, but it's super tight, and they have a plan, it's not just push and oh crap, it's push and then i'm already setup to do this and then this
the reason people say macro more or macro better a lot is because with a lot of NA and EU players, their problems stem from a meandering build, place it whenever wherever, couple seconds late here and there and it adds up
have a plan, learn to execute it perfectly, then worry about the tricky stuff, make sure your plan doesn't have a dead end, assuming you're not allining anyway, it seems like most of your problems stem from a lack of a solid plan and build order to go with it
the reason their(select etc) apm is so high mid game when nothing is happening is cause they're "tapping", playing in a rhythmic fashion while cycling through buildings to make sure they're not missing anything and there is always something being produced, it's mostly junk but it's useful when you're doing other tricks if you have the habit of just cycling through really quick, pounding some units and back
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On December 11 2011 16:18 imjorman wrote:Show nested quote +Since my last post an hour ago... 15:39 max army. trimmed a minute and half off. http://drop.sc/71854I'll work on my attitude. please give me some feedback on this game so I can work on getting my macro better. Dude, I'm in platinum for a reason. I have way more room to go. Obviously I'm not that good. With all due respect, I'm talking about closing the gap between foreigners skill cap and Koreans. I'm sure they didn't do your method. You're midmasters is probably a diamond in Korea. I don't know what they do during their 12 hour training days. But it's not just focusing exclusively on macro. We are behind as the foreigner community. I'm challenging us to push are standards higher. Don't tell me the 10 things I did wrong. Give me 10 examples how to do things better. Not "macro better". Real concrete tools to macro better. With all due respect, your platinum is probably silver in Korea so it's better if you don't play the "league" game here
Actually, I'm Platinum on KR server.
![[image loading]](http://i41.tinypic.com/s6rqeo.jpg)
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thx 
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On December 11 2011 03:36 Snuggles wrote:
I think you're really arrogant.
It doesn't matter if you say you're not, or state that you understand there are pros better than you out there. The fact that you post games of you winning, and a freaking youtube video of your poor control and dare say that you think you did "pretty well" oozes of arrogance. Understandably you might not have known this yourself until someone like me points it out.
Fortunately, unless you're very lucky you won't achieve a very high level of play with that attitude, there will be a roadblock along the way that will prevent you from getting any better.
Anyways, your control is terrible in those vids, and do not do yourself a disservice by suggesting that the Pros really aren't that amazing, because they are. You don't know that they are because you're a low plat player with too many games. Morrow says he can do the lvl 30 marine split challenge, I have no doubt that he can. In fact there are players that do better, like Happy's marine control, I'd say that's like lvl 50 within an actual game rather than a micro trainer.
Here is my advice to you. Adopt a strong inferiority complex, you will naturally get better at SC2. Because right now you look like a kid with the face of inferiority but really you think your control is "above average" when its not so it sounds a lot like a superiority complex to me.
" Alot of people go to LANs to get autographs and pics with their favorite pro. I was there to study mouse clicks and unit boxing."
I mean cmon... you're insinuating that your place at the event is serving a higher purpose than anyone else- You're still a goddamn spectator. Unfortunately you will not listen carefully to my post and try to understand my message, rather you'll pass it off as "hate" and never even consider the fact that you might be doing something wrong. But that doesn't bother me, a platinum player isn't going to be put on the mainstage of MLG anytime soon.
I wasn't a spectator. I participated and actually won a match at MLG Anaheim. It wasn't a higher purpose. I had a player pass. I didn't harbor delusions that I was good enough to play at that level. I used the competitor pass to gain access to the players' area so I could study the best players in the world. Not sure how I'm arrogant for that or think I'm better than everyone.
Actually, A diamond player was featured at MLG Prov, not sure if it was on the main stage. Losira v Ailuj.
Yes, I'm plat on my main account. I also logged 2500 + games as a silver level player. So who know's what's going on with my MMR. I've been getting written off because my main account is PLat. OK.
I'm diamond on my other account and Platinum on my KR account.
Regardless, of the league I'm in, I'd hope someone would get the message I'm sending. But I understand reality. I have lofty goals and there are people who will try to put me in my place.
I posted the VoDs because there is a TL Darglein Scoreboard and to get on it you need to have proof.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=283381¤tpage=All
Yeah, I think my unit control is good I spend hours getting those levels. If my control is as poor as you say it is, the best way to put me in my place is to go ahead and show how easy it is to do it. Because I struggled to do it. The thing is, Its not going to knock me down a notch. If will bring me up. I don't think I have an superiority complex, I dont need people to fail to make me feel good about myself. I'd rather see my competition do better than me. So I can strive to reach where they're at.
I ooze of arrogance. OK. I think my confidence bothers you. I'm confident not because I think I'm better than you, I'm confident because I believe I can become better than I am now.
If I did what y'all did, I could only be as good as you. I asked for pros to show me the way. All I got was a whole bunch of guys telling me what I'm doing wrong.
You don't like my attitude. You don't know what you're talking about. I have Master league practice partners I learn from. I've had GSL level coaching. With that being said. I am a n00b trying to get better. I watch 10+ vods day. If I"m driving, I'm listening to SC2casts. I play 30-40 games a day. And if you're first instinct is to point out how bad I am and sad that I'm not good with all that effort, what does that say about you?
If you are better than me, if you can do these Darglein trainers better, please post so I can learn from you and get better.
thx
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u seem to be missing the point of the stutter step challenge.
that one is supposed to help you improve your ability to pick off banelings while u stutter step back from speedlings. its actually a really helpful skill once you get to higher leveels, cause picking off that one baneling can help youwin the game. you should try it that way. if you watch some pros streams, espedcaillly the korean ones, you'll see them targeting down the baneling in a group of lings
also, since you like these trainers so much, try the darglein multitasking trainer. it helps with your ghost control as well as your multitasking skill.
imho, griffiths marine splitting thing is a piece of shit, and i prefer dargleins, cause i wouldnt be stupid enough to get a ball of marines into creep in a real game anyway. ur splitting is very good however, for u to have gottent o lvl 11, no stim on griffiths.. i only managed lvl 5, and i think my real game splitting is pretty damn good
since u place such a high emphasis on league, this is coming from a mid high master t
also, i think your onto something here with the emphasis on micro techniques. i think its very helpful to focus in on some of these, and then integrating it into your overall game.
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On December 12 2011 08:32 runforyourllife wrote:
u seem to be missing the point of the stutter step challenge.
that one is supposed to help you improve your ability to pick off banelings while u stutter step back from speedlings. its actually a really helpful skill once you get to higher leveels, cause picking off that one baneling can help youwin the game. you should try it that way. if you watch some pros streams, espedcaillly the korean ones, you'll see them targeting down the baneling in a group of lings
also, since you like these trainers so much, try the darglein multitasking trainer. it helps with your ghost control as well as your multitasking skill.
imho, griffiths marine splitting thing is a piece of shit, and i prefer dargleins, cause i wouldnt be stupid enough to get a ball of marines into creep in a real game anyway. ur splitting is very good however, for u to have gottent o lvl 11, no stim on griffiths.. i only managed lvl 5, and i think my real game splitting is pretty damn good
since u place such a high emphasis on league, this is coming from a mid high master t
also, i think your onto something here with the emphasis on micro techniques. i think its very helpful to focus in on some of these, and then integrating it into your overall game.
Thanks buddy. I know what you mean. I can do stutter step straight up, up to level 7-8. After that it's "impossible" --hopefully someone changes that reality for me. I actually almost beat level 11 with my cheesy strat. 1 marine lost to a ling.
I love Darglein Multitasker trainer! I'm terrible at it. However, it has helped me with mid battle supply depots. I wrote this blog because of that trainer. I'd love to see Select own it. So I could steal some tricks off him.
Yeah, this blog became a debate between macro and unit control and proving worth based off what league you're in, I'm as much to blame as anyone for that. I'd like to think my viterirol response to the other posts was more to do with how I percieved their intentions more than what league they were in.
Thanks for you post. At Masters level, I'm sure I could learn from your technique. On Darglein Multitrainer, is your camera on your army like 95% of the time? I get wrecked by banes everytime. Also, do you have a Terran Deathball hotkey set up?
Right now I have 1-2-0 as my army Hotkeys (with tilda as 0) I'm considering moving my production hotkeys over to 5-6-7-8.
Giving me `-1-2-3-4 for my units. 1-MMM, Entire Army, 3-ghosts,4-Drops or vikings. Against Protoss I need that separation in control groups to get to the next level.
That would also give me 2 hotkeys for my army 1-marine 2-tanks and 3 hotkeys for each drop when I go multiple drop play against zerg.
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Not sure why everyone is hating on you so much. These things just take more practice ... macro and micro. I think you made some interesting observations when you watched the pros play that most observers would have not made ... they would just have been in awe and not really picked up on anything to help their own play. Just keep at it I guess.
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EPT
