Pro Terrans, please help me with my macro apm/mechanics.
Hi, pHershey signing in. I've been laddering for a year now. My Starcraft foundation comes from watching GSL Open Season 3. So I started off very cheesy with weak macro. On the bright side my unit control has always been above average. I never played RTS games before. I figured if I could master battle-micro it would make up for me not knowing build orders or strats. So I would practice for hours upon days splitting marines and scoot shooting. I'm a very stubborn person. I'm too stupid to know what's impossible. Kinda like Froz (Mentioned in Day[9] Daily #100) when I see a Korean terran do something, I just practice until I can execute it.
But you can only learn so much from VoDs...
The first major step toward my SC2 gaming progress was going to the NASL season 1 Finals. I saw ST Alive practicing. It was amazing how fast he played. It literally evolved my brain. "OOHHHH, that's how you're supposed to play!?" After that, I yearned to emulate the pros. I signed up to play at the MLG Anaheim Open Bracket. I figured I get 0-2 twice
then the real plan would go into effect. Alot of people go to LANs to get autographs and pics with their favorite pro. I was there to study mouse clicks and unit boxing. I was there to steal free lessons from the best players in the world. Standing behind IMMVP, I saw that he boxes his SCVs, starting from bottom right to upper left. I do that now because it hard to do--like strengthening your weak hand in basketball. ColDrewbie has really tight-tetris long-piece boxes when he does Marine Split Challenge, allowing him to grab 1 to 2 marines out of large groups. SlayerSGanzi practices on XNC solo. He spells words out with his SCVs. The perfect straight lines and smoove curves his workers form is analogous to an expert artist's brush stroke. Amazing unit control. If SlayerSBoxer is going to play on a new map, he studies every pixel of terrain. He rally scvs to each main base, noting the blind spots of each scouting pattern. He goes along the whole parimeter of the map, places where he can tuck marines behind bunkers. He floats factories behind mineral patches, noting safe medvac routes. It was amazing to see him actually use that recon in his match. The more I studied the more it occurred to me, Korean Terran dominance isn't automatic. It is paved in hard work and preparation.
Witnessing the best players in person should have been a discouraging experience--wow look at how good these guys are. I can't do that!
But I'm too stupid to know what is impossible.
Instead, I was very inspired. Their Demi-God play is just the sum of a thousand mortal habits.
You can say I'm delusional. My best friend says its my best and worst trait. I am not an NBA player or Movie Star, but because of my past pursuits, I can 360 dunk at 5'9" and I've been able to pay my bills as a SAG actor. Likewise, in SC2, I'm not saying my goal is to win a GSL or MLG in 2012, but I would like to play fast (130-160APM) and keep my minerals low.
I'm able to spam 170ave-250peak APM the first 10 minutes of the game. And in battles my APM is 250-300. But in peace time/macro mode my APM drops dramatically. Even when I can keep my mins low my APM suffers. APM isn't everything, but it is a function of how much control you have over your entire army, production, rally points,positioning and the ability to multitask between all these facets. I look at it like this: If Chess was an RTS, and I had double my opponent's APM, I would be able to beat superior players, regardless of their strategy, if given a 2 for 1 move advantage.
To bring it all home and back to the title of this blog. I'd love to see more pros stream their practice sessions. I don't mean practice games, I mean their warmup drills: marine split challenge, Darglein trainers, and more specifically I need to see Dignitas Select do Darglein multitasking trainer. Just seeing him do it would expand my concept of what's acheivable.
MousMorrow says he can do Level 30 Marine Split Challenge. I need to see it. I'm not calling him out. Its for my sake and the overall skill level of SC2. We need to break past SC2's 4 minute mile barrier. If Morrow posts a VoD of him getting level 30 on MSC he could be our Roger Bannister. That is the neccessary step to some kid beating MSC on level 35. I missed Boxer's Marine v Lurker, but I know SC2 will have more of those moments. The difference between impossible and possible is just time.
pHershey signing out.
PS
To give an idea where my micro is at.
Level 9 - Darglein's Micro trainer- Focus Fire (speed/stim enabled)
Level 11 Marine Split Challenge (No stim/No patrol)
Here's another match where I attempt a Select inspired style of multiple drop play, minus the pro level macro and multitasking. http://drop.sc/71450
Although, I 5-0ed my placements and got into diamond on my "smurf" and currently 2-0 on my KR account. I consider myself a plat level player since my main account is stuck there. I have been asked a couple of times by my diamond opponents if I was a Masters smurfing. Nope, just a n00b copying pros
I feel like you are obsessing over APM wayyy too much. I mean, you can be a grandmaster player no problem with 80 APM total (sc2 in-game APM.)
You might not want to hear this but just focus on improving and don't focus on APM too much. If you are building up too much money there are 2 main things to check.
1. Are you keepng your unit producing structures constantly busy? 2. Do you have enough unit producing structures?
That's a big simplification, but it's a big part of what "macro" boils down to.
edit: wtf, I'm 6'0 and can't get even close to dunking lol.
Also, I'd like to add that I think a majority of games are won based on build order choice, decision making, and macro. Having amazing micro over having good micro is great, but I believe the truth is that much of the time it is far from the most influential factor and will only make a difference in the rare "special" game (which is what makes it so special, and an object of admiration when that elite skill pays off.)
i have white mans disease, i can't jump so no way in hell i can dunk.
but in BW, the way I raised my APM was to literally just spam my keyboard. My skill dropped for a week or two, but then eventually my spam became actual commands. You really just have to play a lot and just be extremely comfortable in the game.
On December 10 2011 17:14 Itsmedudeman wrote: Umm well, for macro I think it helps to cycle through your production facilities just 1234 constantly.
Also, you shouldn't cheat like that for the first micro trainer lol, kinda ruins the purpose.
I've had some coaching and they told me to save my 123 hkeys for my army. so I have 3 ccs 4 rax 5 facts 6 ports. Yeah you're right, my cycling is kinda weak.
I think I got to level 7 or 8 doing focus fire straight up. After a while you have to do something unorthodox. I might be wrong. Like I said, I'd love to see a pro, or anybody do these trainers to provide a good example. thx for the feedback
On December 10 2011 17:16 Jonoman92 wrote: I feel like you are obsessing over APM wayyy too much. I mean, you can be a grandmaster player no problem with 80 APM total (sc2 in-game APM.)
You might not want to hear this but just focus on improving and don't focus on APM too much. If you are building up too much money there are 2 main things to check.
1. Are you keepng your unit producing structures constantly busy? 2. Do you have enough unit producing structures?
That's a big simplification, but it's a big part of what "macro" boils down to.
edit: wtf, I'm 6'0 and can't get even close to dunking lol.
Also, I'd like to add that I think a majority of games are won based on build order choice, decision making, and macro. Having amazing micro over having good micro is great, but I believe the truth is that much of the time it is far from the most influential factor and will only make a difference in the rare "special" game (which is what makes it so special, and an object of admiration when that elite skill pays off.)
I completely agree with you. Although I love SlayerSBoxer and all the SlayerS Terrans, I've slowly come to appreciate IMMVP more. It's a generalization but I feel SlayerS style is more unit control based where as IMMVP does have good micro, he leans more toward a macro foundation in his play. I feel it is more stable.
Yeah, my blog was very APM-centric, I do realize macro is what's keeping me from getting to the next level. I do see the yin and yang balance of micro and macro. But I believe the higher your APM the more you can have your cake and eat it too. I've been trying to trying to emulate Select's style lately. He's easily one of the fastest terrans right now. At Blizzcon he's showed a more macro style while still playing at the same speed. In the title I asked for help in my Macro APM. One example of Macro APM I have been able to improve on is midbattle suppy depots. I have my spacebar set to a camera location--my main base. Mid battle I tap spacebar, start 2 depots, que rally scvs back to mineral line, double tap 1 back to battle in less than a second. I feel that early spamming every game has given me the hand speed to do that. I think I'm using the wrong word, when I say APM, at times I mean multitasking.
APM isn't everything, but I heard July Zerg was recruited in BW because he was fast. Not that I'm trying to get recruited because of my APM, but I see the logic: it's easier to teach a fast player good strategy, than it is to teach a slow good strategist how to play fast.
As far as being able to dunk, while being addicted to SC2, I'm Black and Korean, it's in my blood;)
On December 10 2011 17:51 Coramoor wrote: if sc2ranks doesn't lie, you're in platinum, you should probably be working on Build orders and macro, rather then gosu unit control
I think Korean style is to pick 1 build order for each match up and master the ins and out of that build order. I play 20-30 ladder games a day. I work on my mechanics and macro everyday. I actually 5-0 into diamond on other account and 2-0 in my placements on KR account. When I took coaching from ST Rainbow he said I didn't play like a platinum player. I believe my MMR is ruined because of the number of games I've played. It is what it is. Truth is my TvT is probable gold level, TvZ platinum/diamond TvP diamond/masters and that averages out to plat.
Why not work on build order, macro and gosu unit control?
On December 10 2011 17:51 Coramoor wrote: if sc2ranks doesn't lie, you're in platinum, you should probably be working on Build orders and macro, rather then gosu unit control
I think Korean style is to pick 1 build order for each match up and master the ins and out of that build order. I play 20-30 ladder games a day. I work on my mechanics and macro everyday. I actually 5-0 into diamond on other account and 2-0 in my placements on KR account. When I took coaching from ST Rainbow he said I didn't play like a platinum player. I believe my MMR is ruined because of the number of games I've played. It is what it is. Truth is my TvT is probable gold level, TvZ platinum/diamond TvP diamond/masters and that averages out to plat.
Why not work on build order, macro and gosu unit control?
You can't work on everything at once, you have to split things in pieces. With everything in life. Just look at your school books, lets take calculus for example. Where they trying to teach you everything at once? No first was explained what unknown is, then what a function is, then you get different type of functions, etc. The problem with people trying to get better at starcraft is that they try to do everything. Right now i'm high master and the way i improved from the very beginning was this:
Day9 told me to never queu, so the next games i focused on never queueing. Day9 told me to look at the minimap and at my supply, the next games i focused really hard on this
Ofcourse you can try to focus at more stuff at once. But this depends on the person. For instance, i was learning myself to wall and to not queue. Then afterwards when i was good at not queuing I tried to keep my money low whilst constantly making scv's, slowly i learned how to macro. Then when i was good at macro i learned myself to walk around with my army whilst doing this. You need to take everything in slow steps. I remember i first thought i was just learning myself new tricks and not getting better at all lol. But when all these little tricks add up you become better. Right now i'm focusing really hard to use F-keys. What i mean by focusing hard is that I do everything else as good as I can. But instead use the F-keys to move around. This means that sometimes i will use the minimap like I used too. But that means i force myself to go back and use the f-keys.
To learn something different and breaking out of your old habits is really hard you actually work really hard to tell your brain not to do the old stuff, but once you do it becomes your new comfort zone. Also, APM is nothing more then knowing what to do next. Not how fast your fingers move. Seeing as how you are platinum, your macro still sucks. ONLY focus on trying to improve your maco. And when improving your macro, try to split everything macro related into small steps and focus on one of these things until you are comfortable and then go on to the next one.
APM will not improve your macro. It will help you micro and macro, but macro requires remembering to make the different clicks or key presses to produce more units, make upgrades, chrono, or inject larva, or call down mules, to build more production, making more supply, etc. These things need to become mental habits before you APM is useful towards your macro.
Speed means nothing without strongly enforced correct habits. You have done a good job practicing on your micro it seems. You need to set 100% of that aside, and sit your ass down in some games v the computer, and practice macroing like crazy. Constantly check your production, never get supply blocked, never miss a mule, etc.etc. Once you have that mastered, try putting the two together. It probably won't go the best at first, but soon you will be doing great.
EDITS: because I'm really brain dead at 6 a.m. and mixed up a couple of words. XD
On December 10 2011 17:51 Coramoor wrote: if sc2ranks doesn't lie, you're in platinum, you should probably be working on Build orders and macro, rather then gosu unit control
I think Korean style is to pick 1 build order for each match up and master the ins and out of that build order. I play 20-30 ladder games a day. I work on my mechanics and macro everyday. I actually 5-0 into diamond on other account and 2-0 in my placements on KR account. When I took coaching from ST Rainbow he said I didn't play like a platinum player. I believe my MMR is ruined because of the number of games I've played. It is what it is. Truth is my TvT is probable gold level, TvZ platinum/diamond TvP diamond/masters and that averages out to plat.
Why not work on build order, macro and gosu unit control?
You can't work on everything at once, you have to split things in pieces. With everything in life. Just look at your school books, lets take calculus for example. Where they trying to teach you everything at once? No first was explained what unknown is, then what a function is, then you get different type of functions, etc. The problem with people trying to get better at starcraft is that they try to do everything. Right now i'm high master and the way i improved from the very beginning was this:
Day9 told me to never queu, so the next games i focused on never queueing. Day9 told me to look at the minimap and at my supply, the next games i focused really hard on this
Ofcourse you can try to focus at more stuff at once. But this depends on the person. For instance, i was learning myself to wall and to not queue. Then afterwards when i was good at not queuing I tried to keep my money low whilst constantly making scv's, slowly i learned how to macro. Then when i was good at macro i learned myself to walk around with my army whilst doing this. You need to take everything in slow steps. I remember i first thought i was just learning myself new tricks and not getting better at all lol. But when all these little tricks add up you become better. Right now i'm focusing really hard to use F-keys. What i mean by focusing hard is that I do everything else as good as I can. But instead use the F-keys to move around. This means that sometimes i will use the minimap like I used too. But that means i force myself to go back and use the f-keys.
To learn something different and breaking out of your old habits is really hard you actually work really hard to tell your brain not to do the old stuff, but once you do it becomes your new comfort zone. Also, APM is nothing more then knowing what to do next. Not how fast your fingers move. Seeing as how you are platinum, your macro still sucks. ONLY focus on trying to improve your maco. And when improving your macro, try to split everything macro related into small steps and focus on one of these things until you are comfortable and then go on to the next one.
On December 10 2011 17:51 Coramoor wrote: if sc2ranks doesn't lie, you're in platinum, you should probably be working on Build orders and macro, rather then gosu unit control
I think Korean style is to pick 1 build order for each match up and master the ins and out of that build order. I play 20-30 ladder games a day. I work on my mechanics and macro everyday. I actually 5-0 into diamond on other account and 2-0 in my placements on KR account. When I took coaching from ST Rainbow he said I didn't play like a platinum player. I believe my MMR is ruined because of the number of games I've played. It is what it is. Truth is my TvT is probable gold level, TvZ platinum/diamond TvP diamond/masters and that averages out to plat.
Why not work on build order, macro and gosu unit control?
You can't work on everything at once, you have to split things in pieces. With everything in life. Just look at your school books, lets take calculus for example. Where they trying to teach you everything at once? No first was explained what unknown is, then what a function is, then you get different type of functions, etc. The problem with people trying to get better at starcraft is that they try to do everything. Right now i'm high master and the way i improved from the very beginning was this:
Day9 told me to never queu, so the next games i focused on never queueing. Day9 told me to look at the minimap and at my supply, the next games i focused really hard on this
Ofcourse you can try to focus at more stuff at once. But this depends on the person. For instance, i was learning myself to wall and to not queue. Then afterwards when i was good at not queuing I tried to keep my money low whilst constantly making scv's, slowly i learned how to macro. Then when i was good at macro i learned myself to walk around with my army whilst doing this. You need to take everything in slow steps. I remember i first thought i was just learning myself new tricks and not getting better at all lol. But when all these little tricks add up you become better. Right now i'm focusing really hard to use F-keys. What i mean by focusing hard is that I do everything else as good as I can. But instead use the F-keys to move around. This means that sometimes i will use the minimap like I used too. But that means i force myself to go back and use the f-keys.
To learn something different and breaking out of your old habits is really hard you actually work really hard to tell your brain not to do the old stuff, but once you do it becomes your new comfort zone. Also, APM is nothing more then knowing what to do next. Not how fast your fingers move. Seeing as how you are platinum, your macro still sucks. ONLY focus on trying to improve your maco. And when improving your macro, try to split everything macro related into small steps and focus on one of these things until you are comfortable and then go on to the next one.
well after watching that replay, either you're incredibly arrogant about your sc2 ability or you really think we can help you learn more from the games you win rather than games you lose, you can't be stuck in plat, it's just not possible, clearly you are still losing games at the plat level
you won that game cause your opponent never scouted the top of the map, that's all, nothing magically, you never should lose at that point, having been on a base lead the entire game, you played super greedy, if he 4gates you're dead, if he 3gate stalker pressures you're dead
here's the thing you have 458 points in platinum with 389 wins
post a game of you getting your ass stomped and then we might be able to help you
btw doing well in placements matches is meaningless, you don't play anyone good in your placements
edit: your macro really wasn't that good, you only have 4 barracks for the longest time despite getting over 5000 minerals, you should've had like 9 barracks, at that ponit at least, if he hit a timing right, all the mins in the world wouldn't have saved you as your production would've died quite quick
It doesn't matter if you say you're not, or state that you understand there are pros better than you out there. The fact that you post games of you winning, and a freaking youtube video of your poor control and dare say that you think you did "pretty well" oozes of arrogance. Understandably you might not have known this yourself until someone like me points it out.
Fortunately, unless you're very lucky you won't achieve a very high level of play with that attitude, there will be a roadblock along the way that will prevent you from getting any better.
Anyways, your control is terrible in those vids, and do not do yourself a disservice by suggesting that the Pros really aren't that amazing, because they are. You don't know that they are because you're a low plat player with too many games. Morrow says he can do the lvl 30 marine split challenge, I have no doubt that he can. In fact there are players that do better, like Happy's marine control, I'd say that's like lvl 50 within an actual game rather than a micro trainer.
Here is my advice to you. Adopt a strong inferiority complex, you will naturally get better at SC2. Because right now you look like a kid with the face of inferiority but really you think your control is "above average" when its not so it sounds a lot like a superiority complex to me.
" Alot of people go to LANs to get autographs and pics with their favorite pro. I was there to study mouse clicks and unit boxing."
I mean cmon... you're insinuating that your place at the event is serving a higher purpose than anyone else- You're still a goddamn spectator. Unfortunately you will not listen carefully to my post and try to understand my message, rather you'll pass it off as "hate" and never even consider the fact that you might be doing something wrong. But that doesn't bother me, a platinum player isn't going to be put on the mainstage of MLG anytime soon.
On December 10 2011 17:51 Coramoor wrote: if sc2ranks doesn't lie, you're in platinum, you should probably be working on Build orders and macro, rather then gosu unit control
I think Korean style is to pick 1 build order for each match up and master the ins and out of that build order. I play 20-30 ladder games a day. I work on my mechanics and macro everyday. I actually 5-0 into diamond on other account and 2-0 in my placements on KR account. When I took coaching from ST Rainbow he said I didn't play like a platinum player. I believe my MMR is ruined because of the number of games I've played. It is what it is. Truth is my TvT is probable gold level, TvZ platinum/diamond TvP diamond/masters and that averages out to plat.
Why not work on build order, macro and gosu unit control?
You can't work on everything at once, you have to split things in pieces. With everything in life. Just look at your school books, lets take calculus for example. Where they trying to teach you everything at once? No first was explained what unknown is, then what a function is, then you get different type of functions, etc. The problem with people trying to get better at starcraft is that they try to do everything. Right now i'm high master and the way i improved from the very beginning was this:
Day9 told me to never queu, so the next games i focused on never queueing. Day9 told me to look at the minimap and at my supply, the next games i focused really hard on this
Ofcourse you can try to focus at more stuff at once. But this depends on the person. For instance, i was learning myself to wall and to not queue. Then afterwards when i was good at not queuing I tried to keep my money low whilst constantly making scv's, slowly i learned how to macro. Then when i was good at macro i learned myself to walk around with my army whilst doing this. You need to take everything in slow steps. I remember i first thought i was just learning myself new tricks and not getting better at all lol. But when all these little tricks add up you become better. Right now i'm focusing really hard to use F-keys. What i mean by focusing hard is that I do everything else as good as I can. But instead use the F-keys to move around. This means that sometimes i will use the minimap like I used too. But that means i force myself to go back and use the f-keys.
To learn something different and breaking out of your old habits is really hard you actually work really hard to tell your brain not to do the old stuff, but once you do it becomes your new comfort zone. Also, APM is nothing more then knowing what to do next. Not how fast your fingers move. Seeing as how you are platinum, your macro still sucks. ONLY focus on trying to improve your maco. And when improving your macro, try to split everything macro related into small steps and focus on one of these things until you are comfortable and then go on to the next one.
I'm sorry but that is not good play, that is not good macro whatsoever. You played ridiculously greedy and quite frankly really stupidly. If your opponent had scouted whatsoever you would've lost that game.
You add on rax waaaay too late and your expansion pattern and timing is beyond silly , it's just super risky not solid whatsoever
On December 10 2011 17:51 Coramoor wrote: if sc2ranks doesn't lie, you're in platinum, you should probably be working on Build orders and macro, rather then gosu unit control
I think Korean style is to pick 1 build order for each match up and master the ins and out of that build order. I play 20-30 ladder games a day. I work on my mechanics and macro everyday. I actually 5-0 into diamond on other account and 2-0 in my placements on KR account. When I took coaching from ST Rainbow he said I didn't play like a platinum player. I believe my MMR is ruined because of the number of games I've played. It is what it is. Truth is my TvT is probable gold level, TvZ platinum/diamond TvP diamond/masters and that averages out to plat.
Why not work on build order, macro and gosu unit control?
You can't work on everything at once, you have to split things in pieces. With everything in life. Just look at your school books, lets take calculus for example. Where they trying to teach you everything at once? No first was explained what unknown is, then what a function is, then you get different type of functions, etc. The problem with people trying to get better at starcraft is that they try to do everything. Right now i'm high master and the way i improved from the very beginning was this:
Day9 told me to never queu, so the next games i focused on never queueing. Day9 told me to look at the minimap and at my supply, the next games i focused really hard on this
Ofcourse you can try to focus at more stuff at once. But this depends on the person. For instance, i was learning myself to wall and to not queue. Then afterwards when i was good at not queuing I tried to keep my money low whilst constantly making scv's, slowly i learned how to macro. Then when i was good at macro i learned myself to walk around with my army whilst doing this. You need to take everything in slow steps. I remember i first thought i was just learning myself new tricks and not getting better at all lol. But when all these little tricks add up you become better. Right now i'm focusing really hard to use F-keys. What i mean by focusing hard is that I do everything else as good as I can. But instead use the F-keys to move around. This means that sometimes i will use the minimap like I used too. But that means i force myself to go back and use the f-keys.
To learn something different and breaking out of your old habits is really hard you actually work really hard to tell your brain not to do the old stuff, but once you do it becomes your new comfort zone. Also, APM is nothing more then knowing what to do next. Not how fast your fingers move. Seeing as how you are platinum, your macro still sucks. ONLY focus on trying to improve your maco. And when improving your macro, try to split everything macro related into small steps and focus on one of these things until you are comfortable and then go on to the next one.
I'm sorry but that is not good play, that is not good macro whatsoever. You played ridiculously greedy and quite frankly really stupidly. If your opponent had scouted whatsoever you would've lost that game.
You add on rax waaaay too late and your expansion pattern and timing is beyond silly , it's just super risky not solid whatsoever
I think you guys missed the point of this blog. You macro-enforcers are like the maurader kill squad on the train level. Just patrolling TL telling people to macro better, regardless of what the thread is about.
This thread is about pushing the limits of unit control and multitasking.
Save your generalized, vague and not so helpful macro harder advice for the bronzies on the strat page. If I gave you any Boxer replay and you didnt know who it was you would have the same useless critizism. I'm sure if I showed you Nestea's play on Shakuras vs MVP you'd have something to say about him floating 10,000 minerals, if you didnt know who he was. The point I'm making is, you forum heroes are assessing the person, not the words being said. If Select was saying all this, I guess it would be accepted by more people. Even then-- haters are gonna hate. Select is the best NA terran. He's fast and has topnotch multitasking. I'd rather strive to emulate his play, than try to decipher "macro harder" on TL.
It's weird how the English speaking SC2 community stresses macro, yet when I look at these Korean kids pwning the world, they have good macro and superior micro. Weird how they find the time to play fast, macro and multitask. I'm not against macro. I played 100s of custom games working on my builds and macro. But I also do that while controlling a banshee, so my multitasking skills improve. I'm not against macro, I'm for pushing the limits of macro. I hit a 17 minute max on the rep. That's my new ladder benchmark. Losira hit a 13 minute max agaisnt Ailuj at MLG prov. That's what I'll strive for.
Macro has become the most useless word on TL, because critics/trolls overuse to the point it lost its meaning.
The idea is to build the biggest army as fast as possible, with an economy to support it. Your criticism is I played too risky.
Well, I should only play and plan for what my opponent does, not what he could have done. Losira hitting a 13 minute max means he took big economic risks to be able to support that size army that fast. He played his opponent, not what the opponent should have done.
I took a risk, a calculated one. I've played that map over 600 times against protoss. I'm sure 95% of protoss don't blindly scout their 5/6th base at that point. So there is a 5% chance of it being scouted--actually less than that I seen Naniwa scout there at TSL3, the only time I've seen so far. This game does a have a risk-reward aspect to it. So as long as he didn't kill me with a 4 gate in the first 7 minutes i won the game. Shakuras is a 2 base turtle map. I can't just stim up his natural ramp. I thought to myself what could a Korean do if he wanted to. Take ninja third. So I decided to beat him by counting coup--steal his minerals. That base paid for itself and then some. If he took his forces up there too early, I would have used it as a dummy magnet to get his units out of position and sniped his natural. You're right. I had too much minerals. When I do that same strat on the ladder, I'll adjust, make more rax and try for a sub 15 minute max. 16:30 is my practice game record.
At the end of the day i won. I'm platinum, and he was a superior diamond protoss. The guy played super fast and had great multitasking. He played solid and his unit composition usually counters my biocentric style. I took a risk and it allowed me to outmacro him. Not only did I beat him, I made him think I was a master level player.
Fed a troll. Now I gotta log on and work on macroing hard...and multitasking....and unit control.
You're still not taking in our advice. We're criticizing your macro for a reason, and you should be thanking us for it rather than fighting back. Even a high master player would want to continue work on their macro, and if someone gave them some really useful critiques then they would be thankful if they were earnestly trying to get to GM.
This is why I said your attitude will prevent you from getting better lol. Like can you get a clue and understand that we're trying to help you? Like your reply to the past posts directly proves my point jesus christ. Sadly you still won't take our advice.
If you would listen you might be able to promote yourself in 30 games rather than another 100. But you can't see that as a possibility can you? I really like people like you, people like you are very interesting characters.
Again my advice is to stop making these statements "Not only did I beat him, I made him think I was a master level player." you're letting it get into your head and you're not focusing on how you could have played better. You're saying this to yourself as you watch the replay "haha I'm awesome I made a cool strategical decision and I beat someone better than me! Cool!!!". Be more humble are realize that if you want to improve your unit control and multitask is to drop the current attitude you have.
Here is my thought process when watched the replay where I beat a GM protoss player in a Bo3 despite being a terrible Master player.
"Oh my god... his mechanics are so much better than mine.." "My macro is failing, went over 500 min for a few seconds, probably means 7-9 larvae sitting around doing nothing" "I shouldn't have focused so much on being aggressive, I was not looking at the game as a whole" "I managed to make 10 mistakes and one important right decision to win the game, that is horrible."
"Next time I face someone like him I need to play better, or I will lose."
Notice how I am not commenting at all on how I may have picked off some key structures, or did a fantastic job on droning and ninja korean expoing (lol). Anything positive I may have done in those games are things I should not focus on, its a waste of time.
Like you seriously just need to stop being so defensive to criticism. I even called it lol, you would refer to us as "haters". You call us forum scoundrels when really you're the one talking down on us as people when we're just taking our time to look at your game. Then you do some kind of pseudo martyr bullshit with the line "Fed a troll" to further try to cover your bases. I mean I can see right through you dude, maybe you just can't see it yourself.
If you don't come up with a good argument for what I've said or come to accept that there may be something wrong in the way you view yourself as a SC2 player then you must be either a troll or just really stupid.
Fed a troll, I'm gonna go grab a beer.
EDIT: "This thread is about pushing the limits of unit control and multitasking." Thread title is asking for help with macro.
On December 10 2011 17:51 Coramoor wrote: if sc2ranks doesn't lie, you're in platinum, you should probably be working on Build orders and macro, rather then gosu unit control
I think Korean style is to pick 1 build order for each match up and master the ins and out of that build order. I play 20-30 ladder games a day. I work on my mechanics and macro everyday. I actually 5-0 into diamond on other account and 2-0 in my placements on KR account. When I took coaching from ST Rainbow he said I didn't play like a platinum player. I believe my MMR is ruined because of the number of games I've played. It is what it is. Truth is my TvT is probable gold level, TvZ platinum/diamond TvP diamond/masters and that averages out to plat.
Why not work on build order, macro and gosu unit control?
You can't work on everything at once, you have to split things in pieces. With everything in life. Just look at your school books, lets take calculus for example. Where they trying to teach you everything at once? No first was explained what unknown is, then what a function is, then you get different type of functions, etc. The problem with people trying to get better at starcraft is that they try to do everything. Right now i'm high master and the way i improved from the very beginning was this:
Day9 told me to never queu, so the next games i focused on never queueing. Day9 told me to look at the minimap and at my supply, the next games i focused really hard on this
Ofcourse you can try to focus at more stuff at once. But this depends on the person. For instance, i was learning myself to wall and to not queue. Then afterwards when i was good at not queuing I tried to keep my money low whilst constantly making scv's, slowly i learned how to macro. Then when i was good at macro i learned myself to walk around with my army whilst doing this. You need to take everything in slow steps. I remember i first thought i was just learning myself new tricks and not getting better at all lol. But when all these little tricks add up you become better. Right now i'm focusing really hard to use F-keys. What i mean by focusing hard is that I do everything else as good as I can. But instead use the F-keys to move around. This means that sometimes i will use the minimap like I used too. But that means i force myself to go back and use the f-keys.
To learn something different and breaking out of your old habits is really hard you actually work really hard to tell your brain not to do the old stuff, but once you do it becomes your new comfort zone. Also, APM is nothing more then knowing what to do next. Not how fast your fingers move. Seeing as how you are platinum, your macro still sucks. ONLY focus on trying to improve your maco. And when improving your macro, try to split everything macro related into small steps and focus on one of these things until you are comfortable and then go on to the next one.
I'm sorry but that is not good play, that is not good macro whatsoever. You played ridiculously greedy and quite frankly really stupidly. If your opponent had scouted whatsoever you would've lost that game.
You add on rax waaaay too late and your expansion pattern and timing is beyond silly , it's just super risky not solid whatsoever
I think you guys missed the point of this blog. You macro-enforcers are like the maurader kill squad on the train level. Just patrolling TL telling people to macro better, regardless of what the thread is about.
This thread is about pushing the limits of unit control and multitasking.
Save your generalized, vague and not so helpful macro harder advice for the bronzies on the strat page. If I gave you any Boxer replay and you didnt know who it was you would have the same useless critizism. I'm sure if I showed you Nestea's play on Shakuras vs MVP you'd have something to say about him floating 10,000 minerals, if you didnt know who he was. The point I'm making is, you forum heroes are assessing the person, not the words being said. If Select was saying all this, I guess it would be accepted by more people. Even then-- haters are gonna hate. Select is the best NA terran. He's fast and has topnotch multitasking. I'd rather strive to emulate his play, than try to decipher "macro harder" on TL.
It's weird how the English speaking SC2 community stresses macro, yet when I look at these Korean kids pwning the world, they have good macro and superior micro. Weird how they find the time to play fast, macro and multitask. I'm not against macro. I played 100s of custom games working on my builds and macro. But I also do that while controlling a banshee, so my multitasking skills improve. I'm not against macro, I'm for pushing the limits of macro. I hit a 17 minute max on the rep. That's my new ladder benchmark. Losira hit a 13 minute max agaisnt Ailuj at MLG prov. That's what I'll strive for.
Macro has become the most useless word on TL, because critics/trolls overuse to the point it lost its meaning.
The idea is to build the biggest army as fast as possible, with an economy to support it. Your criticism is I played too risky.
Well, I should only play and plan for what my opponent does, not what he could have done. Losira hitting a 13 minute max means he took big economic risks to be able to support that size army that fast. He played his opponent, not what the opponent should have done.
I took a risk, a calculated one. I've played that map over 600 times against protoss. I'm sure 95% of protoss don't blindly scout their 5/6th base at that point. So there is a 5% chance of it being scouted--actually less than that I seen Naniwa scout there at TSL3, the only time I've seen so far. This game does a have a risk-reward aspect to it. So as long as he didn't kill me with a 4 gate in the first 7 minutes i won the game. Shakuras is a 2 base turtle map. I can't just stim up his natural ramp. I thought to myself what could a Korean do if he wanted to. Take ninja third. So I decided to beat him by counting coup--steal his minerals. That base paid for itself and then some. If he took his forces up there too early, I would have used it as a dummy magnet to get his units out of position and sniped his natural. You're right. I had too much minerals. When I do that same strat on the ladder, I'll adjust, make more rax and try for a sub 15 minute max. 16:30 is my practice game record.
At the end of the day i won. I'm platinum, and he was a superior diamond protoss. The guy played super fast and had great multitasking. He played solid and his unit composition usually counters my biocentric style. I took a risk and it allowed me to outmacro him. Not only did I beat him, I made him think I was a master level player.
Fed a troll. Now I gotta log on and work on macroing hard...and multitasking....and unit control.
Well you see this isn't the strat forum , therefore i wasn't critiquing your play and telling you how to improve I was simply informing you that your macro isn't good enough to be considered anything but sucky.
And yes boxer does have shitty macro at times and if he had better macro he would have better results in sc2 or are you implying that boxer plays the game perfectly? No macro is not everything , of course other things are important but being able to micro with a god will do you no good if your opponent has 10 times your units. Also you may want to note how good Selects macro is. Select is as insanely good as he is because of his top notch mechanics , his execution is really really good but he would be nowhere without how crisp his macro is.
Also your risk wasn't that well calculated because you didn't scout much whatsoever, nor did your opponent luckily for you.You can't play to your opponent if you're not scouting them appropriately which you may want to note does indeed involve multi-tasking. Just because your opponent didn't scout your hidden base does't make it a good idea also if i remember correctly it was your 2nd base not your third.
As guy who describes his micro as above average i can't imagine what you think average micro looks like. You just come across as this arrogant guy who rates himself much more highly than he realistically is. It's hard to critique that replay because of the ninja third , it's a completely silly strategy to apply to a BO1 ladder match. It's so very flimsy and falls apart to so many blind all-ins and falls apart completely when scouted. He doesn't even have to commit that much to stop that build, simply having a probe contesting the towers to see your scv either going out to build it or not returning to base after scouting. There really is no point in playing this way when you have so much more to learn from just playing standard.
If you wanna play a more multi-tasking oriented style i'd recommend you go look up the TvP daily from day9(can't remember the number , may have select in the title) where he goes over a fast medivac build that allows you to tax yours and your opponents multitasking through quick double drops.
No one is saying the only thing you need to do to get better at this game is to macro better , we are however saying your macro is a big hole in your play and that it would be wise to remedy it as it's such a big hole in your play. We're saying you'll improve faster if your macro is better rather than doing cute shit like hidden expos.
You're in plat for a reason , that reason is your plat level play. Also your opponent wasn't super fast and his multi-tasking was never really taxed.
1. Relying on your opponent being bad and praying that he doesn't scout your hidden expo is the definition of gimmicky. Yes, at your level there's probably a high chance of them not scouting it but over time, as players improve, it won't work. 2. Your attitude is frankly awful. Complimenting yourself after a good game is fine, but you should make note of at least 3 mistakes per compliments. Thinking "Goddamn I'm so good at this game " isn't going to help you improve. 3.Micro at your level is close to irrelevant. People on TL tell you to "macro better" because that macroing properly also improves your multitasking and APM. Once you're comfortable macroing off 3 bases, you can worry about cool tricks. Nobody is saying that being fast and having good multitasking is irrelevant; it's just that once you learn the basics (macro), it becomes a lot easier to learn the fancy shit. Also, your micro isn't impressive at all, maybe for a platinum player it is, but please stop deluding yourself. You've apparently played ~800 games this season, all that time could have been better spent trying to improve basic mechanics.
Just as an example, I got up to mid-masters doing the same, (maybe overly) safe builds every game (reactor hellion expo vs zerg, 1rax marauder expand vs protoss, and reaper expand vs terran). Once I started playing better and better players, I started experimenting with new builds, cheeses, etc. but I had solid multitasking and macro to fallback to.
Simply focusing exclusively on macro will drastically improve your multitasking and apm, and learning cool tricks will become a lot easier and will come faster.
arrogance won't get you anywhere with this, macro is the key to being better, you can have almost no apm and be mid-high masters, then work on your apm from there to improve easier then having gosu micro but losing a lot cause of poor macro, no build orders and bad timing
1. Relying on your opponent being bad and praying that he doesn't scout your hidden expo is the definition of gimmicky. Yes, at your level there's probably a high chance of them not scouting it but over time, as players improve, it won't work. 2. Your attitude is frankly awful. Complimenting yourself after a good game is fine, but you should make note of at least 3 mistakes per compliments. Thinking "Goddamn I'm so good at this game " isn't going to help you improve. 3.Micro at your level is close to irrelevant. People on TL tell you to "macro better" because that macroing properly also improves your multitasking and APM. Once you're comfortable macroing off 3 bases, you can worry about cool tricks. Nobody is saying that being fast and having good multitasking is irrelevant; it's just that once you learn the basics (macro), it becomes a lot easier to learn the fancy shit. Also, your micro isn't impressive at all, maybe for a platinum player it is, but please stop deluding yourself. You've apparently played ~800 games this season, all that time could have been better spent trying to improve basic mechanics.
Just as an example, I got up to mid-masters doing the same, (maybe overly) safe builds every game (reactor hellion expo vs zerg, 1rax marauder expand vs protoss, and reaper expand vs terran). Once I started playing better and better players, I started experimenting with new builds, cheeses, etc. but I had solid multitasking and macro to fallback to.
Simply focusing exclusively on macro will drastically improve your multitasking and apm, and learning cool tricks will become a lot easier and will come faster.
Since my last post an hour ago... 15:39 max army. trimmed a minute and half off. http://drop.sc/71854 I'll work on my attitude. please give me some feedback on this game so I can work on getting my macro better.
Dude, I'm in platinum for a reason. I have way more room to go. Obviously I'm not that good. With all due respect, I'm talking about closing the gap between foreigners skill cap and Koreans. I'm sure they didn't do your method. You're midmasters is probably a diamond in Korea. I don't know what they do during their 12 hour training days. But it's not just focusing exclusively on macro. We are behind as the foreigner community. I'm challenging us to push are standards higher.
Don't tell me the 10 things I did wrong. Give me 10 examples how to do things better. Not "macro better". Real concrete tools to macro better.
On December 11 2011 04:27 Falconpauunch wrote: Even if I can't help you, thank you for showing this trainer off, I never would've found it otherwise.
You're welcome. The whole point of the blog was to provide a "weightroom" for people to focus on their micro.
Apparently, macromongers don't think people should work on it at all. BTW the Darglein Multitasking trainer is great for macro, multitasking, micro, APM, and learning to BM type while doing it...no seriously, it has a mode where you BM as you multitask.
Sorry but I fail to see how a blog titled "pros help me with macro apm" is a "weightroom for people to focus on micro". In all honesty, are you trying to improve or show off here?
you told me I played terrible, blah blah blah.....rax was late....blah Someone else said blah blah blah on 4 rax way too long..blah. Lot of generalized critiques, then some real kernels of info I could use. More rax production. OK
20 minutes later, did same strat and used your crticisms to improve my play. get a bigger army faster. Yeah, I come off arrogant. But I listen when someone has something useful to say. Just say "Macro harder" means nothing. I think it's dismissive to assume I have terrible macro from seeing one game. Actually the hate came before a rep was viewed.
I lose to zerg because I don't make tanks. I have terrible ghost control. If Protoss goes archon, chargelot HT, I struggle. I don't understand TvT as well as the othe matchups. All that and my macro is not pefect. I'm aware of these things and working on them. It just baffles me how you guys are just blindly assessing what's wrong with my gameplay.
I have lofty goals and have the balls to share them with the world. You're natural reaction is to tell me to be small.don't focus on micro you're macro is not good enough. So what macro benchmarks do I need to hit before I can work on unit control?
At the end of the day, I believe macro is very important, I spend hours upon hours working on it. But I also work on multitasking other aspects of this game.
I wasn't insinuating pros weren't as good as me. I want to see Morrow or anyone do level 30, just so it's real and acheivable now. Look at 2000 slam dunk contest. Vince Carter changed reality that ngiht. Now those dunks are per usual.
I mentioned Select earlier. Yeah I said " I do realize macro is what's keeping me from getting to the next level. I do see the yin and yang balance of micro and macro. But I believe the higher your APM the more you can have your cake and eat it too. I've been trying to trying to emulate Select's style lately. He's easily one of the fastest terrans right now. At Blizzcon he's showed a more macro style while still playing at the same speed."
I come off arrrogant, but I said upfront I have very cheesy-weak macro base. I didn't play BW, I had terrible, none existent army hotkeys 3 months ago. I paid for some coaching. I've aplied all those things. Now I use army hotkeys. Moved my production hotkeys to do so. Rather than sticking with what I was used to I spent 2 weeks doing customs just working on fixing that. If I thought I was as good as you portray me to think I am, I wouldn't have paid money, take advice and apply it.
I respect this game. SC2 is the hardest game I have ever played. There is always room for improvement.
OK, I'll work on macro. But, getting back to the point, could some fast Terrans post some VoDs of their warm ups and trainers?
well see there's the problem, i'd recommend doing what day[9] says a lot, make sure you have a plan, you clearly don't have one that works in a lot of matchups, even if shit goes haywire make sure you know what you intend to do, and seriously, use tanks vs zerg, even pros don't try and use ghosts exclusively against banelings, it's a completely insane thought, it's not about how fast you can max, you seem to be hung up on a lot of measurables, it shouldn't be, how fast can i max, it should be how i can i stop him from expanding, or how can i force him to split his army with drops, or how can i knock out a robo bay to slow him down, or probe snipe, or a bunch of other things, i've played a 30 minute game where neither player made it above 125 supply, because of constant engagements, poking and prodding and drops and all kinds of stuff
hey coramoor, I actually posted a tvz in the spoiler of original post going marine, ghost medvac.
I appreciate what your're say. Sorry for being defensive. It's just when I'm in a game against zerg going bio with no mech its hard to get third or fouth base with no tanks. I'm not sure if that's a macro problem more than a build/strategy problem.
And when I lose to zealot, archon, HT, its usually because of bad hotkey set up, having ghosts/MMM together, trying to stim with Ghost as first unit priority. And my EMP accuracy is terrible.
If I could get better with tanks v zerg and ghost v protoss, I'm sure I'd win more games. Plus...my macro needs work.
Macro is an unmasterable task. There is always room to improve. It goes without saying. I said my goal was to have 160 APM and keep my mins low. Keeping my mins low implies solid macro.
I think a big mix up is what I meant in the title. I didnt mean my macro and apm. I meant my Macro-APM. The APM level when you're macroing mid game. Sure it could be considered spam. But I think its APM generated from constant production, and cycling along with army postioning. It just baffles me how Major and Select is at 250 APM when nothing is going on 8 minutes into the game.
I know...One would say don't worry about it. Focus on macro and forget about APM.
But I just wonder if Koreans get the best results, what do they focus on? What does a platinum Korean do to get better? What regiment does a noob from Korea go through to get as skilled and knowledgable? I have to believe its more than just macro.
Since my last post an hour ago... 15:39 max army. trimmed a minute and half off. http://drop.sc/71854 I'll work on my attitude. please give me some feedback on this game so I can work on getting my macro better.
Dude, I'm in platinum for a reason. I have way more room to go. Obviously I'm not that good. With all due respect, I'm talking about closing the gap between foreigners skill cap and Koreans. I'm sure they didn't do your method. You're midmasters is probably a diamond in Korea. I don't know what they do during their 12 hour training days. But it's not just focusing exclusively on macro. We are behind as the foreigner community. I'm challenging us to push are standards higher.
Don't tell me the 10 things I did wrong. Give me 10 examples how to do things better. Not "macro better". Real concrete tools to macro better.
Allow me to practice doing a compliment sandwich:
*Nice to hear your going to work on your attitude (compliment, bread of the sandwich) *Are you kidding me? With all due respect, your platinum is probably silver in Korea so it's better if you don't play the "league" game here (insult/criticism, meat of the sandwich) *You asking for help macroing should have nothing to do with pro's practicing 10 hours a day. The pro's have the basics of macro and mechanics down while you, clearly, do not. So until you can do those things, you should be spending all your time focusing on them. A masters player going only mauarder can beat a bronze/silver player going only zealot: macro is a large part of the battle in starcraft 2. If your calling the community to push our standards higher, then a blog asking for help isn't the place for that. (insult/criticism, 2nd piece of meat of the sandwich). *This is an open faced sandwich, i.e. no 2nd compliment piece of bread
But I just wonder if Koreans get the best results, what do they focus on? What does a platinum Korean do to get better? What regiment does a noob from Korea go through to get as skilled and knowledgable? I have to believe its more than just macro.
as someone who plays on the korean server, at high plat playing mostly diamonds, slowly moving up, they are a lot better in kr, the one thing that all koreans seem to have, is a really tight build, it could be a terrible build, but it's super tight, and they have a plan, it's not just push and oh crap, it's push and then i'm already setup to do this and then this
the reason people say macro more or macro better a lot is because with a lot of NA and EU players, their problems stem from a meandering build, place it whenever wherever, couple seconds late here and there and it adds up
have a plan, learn to execute it perfectly, then worry about the tricky stuff, make sure your plan doesn't have a dead end, assuming you're not allining anyway, it seems like most of your problems stem from a lack of a solid plan and build order to go with it
the reason their(select etc) apm is so high mid game when nothing is happening is cause they're "tapping", playing in a rhythmic fashion while cycling through buildings to make sure they're not missing anything and there is always something being produced, it's mostly junk but it's useful when you're doing other tricks if you have the habit of just cycling through really quick, pounding some units and back
Since my last post an hour ago... 15:39 max army. trimmed a minute and half off. http://drop.sc/71854 I'll work on my attitude. please give me some feedback on this game so I can work on getting my macro better.
Dude, I'm in platinum for a reason. I have way more room to go. Obviously I'm not that good. With all due respect, I'm talking about closing the gap between foreigners skill cap and Koreans. I'm sure they didn't do your method. You're midmasters is probably a diamond in Korea. I don't know what they do during their 12 hour training days. But it's not just focusing exclusively on macro. We are behind as the foreigner community. I'm challenging us to push are standards higher.
Don't tell me the 10 things I did wrong. Give me 10 examples how to do things better. Not "macro better". Real concrete tools to macro better.
With all due respect, your platinum is probably silver in Korea so it's better if you don't play the "league" game here
On December 11 2011 03:36 Snuggles wrote: I think you're really arrogant.
It doesn't matter if you say you're not, or state that you understand there are pros better than you out there. The fact that you post games of you winning, and a freaking youtube video of your poor control and dare say that you think you did "pretty well" oozes of arrogance. Understandably you might not have known this yourself until someone like me points it out.
Fortunately, unless you're very lucky you won't achieve a very high level of play with that attitude, there will be a roadblock along the way that will prevent you from getting any better.
Anyways, your control is terrible in those vids, and do not do yourself a disservice by suggesting that the Pros really aren't that amazing, because they are. You don't know that they are because you're a low plat player with too many games. Morrow says he can do the lvl 30 marine split challenge, I have no doubt that he can. In fact there are players that do better, like Happy's marine control, I'd say that's like lvl 50 within an actual game rather than a micro trainer.
Here is my advice to you. Adopt a strong inferiority complex, you will naturally get better at SC2. Because right now you look like a kid with the face of inferiority but really you think your control is "above average" when its not so it sounds a lot like a superiority complex to me.
" Alot of people go to LANs to get autographs and pics with their favorite pro. I was there to study mouse clicks and unit boxing."
I mean cmon... you're insinuating that your place at the event is serving a higher purpose than anyone else- You're still a goddamn spectator. Unfortunately you will not listen carefully to my post and try to understand my message, rather you'll pass it off as "hate" and never even consider the fact that you might be doing something wrong. But that doesn't bother me, a platinum player isn't going to be put on the mainstage of MLG anytime soon.
I wasn't a spectator. I participated and actually won a match at MLG Anaheim. It wasn't a higher purpose. I had a player pass. I didn't harbor delusions that I was good enough to play at that level. I used the competitor pass to gain access to the players' area so I could study the best players in the world. Not sure how I'm arrogant for that or think I'm better than everyone.
Actually, A diamond player was featured at MLG Prov, not sure if it was on the main stage. Losira v Ailuj.
Yes, I'm plat on my main account. I also logged 2500 + games as a silver level player. So who know's what's going on with my MMR. I've been getting written off because my main account is PLat. OK.
I'm diamond on my other account and Platinum on my KR account.
Regardless, of the league I'm in, I'd hope someone would get the message I'm sending. But I understand reality. I have lofty goals and there are people who will try to put me in my place.
Yeah, I think my unit control is good I spend hours getting those levels. If my control is as poor as you say it is, the best way to put me in my place is to go ahead and show how easy it is to do it. Because I struggled to do it. The thing is, Its not going to knock me down a notch. If will bring me up. I don't think I have an superiority complex, I dont need people to fail to make me feel good about myself. I'd rather see my competition do better than me. So I can strive to reach where they're at.
I ooze of arrogance. OK. I think my confidence bothers you. I'm confident not because I think I'm better than you, I'm confident because I believe I can become better than I am now.
If I did what y'all did, I could only be as good as you. I asked for pros to show me the way. All I got was a whole bunch of guys telling me what I'm doing wrong.
You don't like my attitude. You don't know what you're talking about. I have Master league practice partners I learn from. I've had GSL level coaching. With that being said. I am a n00b trying to get better. I watch 10+ vods day. If I"m driving, I'm listening to SC2casts. I play 30-40 games a day. And if you're first instinct is to point out how bad I am and sad that I'm not good with all that effort, what does that say about you?
If you are better than me, if you can do these Darglein trainers better, please post so I can learn from you and get better. thx
u seem to be missing the point of the stutter step challenge. that one is supposed to help you improve your ability to pick off banelings while u stutter step back from speedlings. its actually a really helpful skill once you get to higher leveels, cause picking off that one baneling can help youwin the game. you should try it that way. if you watch some pros streams, espedcaillly the korean ones, you'll see them targeting down the baneling in a group of lings also, since you like these trainers so much, try the darglein multitasking trainer. it helps with your ghost control as well as your multitasking skill. imho, griffiths marine splitting thing is a piece of shit, and i prefer dargleins, cause i wouldnt be stupid enough to get a ball of marines into creep in a real game anyway. ur splitting is very good however, for u to have gottent o lvl 11, no stim on griffiths.. i only managed lvl 5, and i think my real game splitting is pretty damn good since u place such a high emphasis on league, this is coming from a mid high master t also, i think your onto something here with the emphasis on micro techniques. i think its very helpful to focus in on some of these, and then integrating it into your overall game.
On December 12 2011 08:32 runforyourllife wrote: u seem to be missing the point of the stutter step challenge. that one is supposed to help you improve your ability to pick off banelings while u stutter step back from speedlings. its actually a really helpful skill once you get to higher leveels, cause picking off that one baneling can help youwin the game. you should try it that way. if you watch some pros streams, espedcaillly the korean ones, you'll see them targeting down the baneling in a group of lings also, since you like these trainers so much, try the darglein multitasking trainer. it helps with your ghost control as well as your multitasking skill. imho, griffiths marine splitting thing is a piece of shit, and i prefer dargleins, cause i wouldnt be stupid enough to get a ball of marines into creep in a real game anyway. ur splitting is very good however, for u to have gottent o lvl 11, no stim on griffiths.. i only managed lvl 5, and i think my real game splitting is pretty damn good since u place such a high emphasis on league, this is coming from a mid high master t also, i think your onto something here with the emphasis on micro techniques. i think its very helpful to focus in on some of these, and then integrating it into your overall game.
Thanks buddy. I know what you mean. I can do stutter step straight up, up to level 7-8. After that it's "impossible" --hopefully someone changes that reality for me. I actually almost beat level 11 with my cheesy strat. 1 marine lost to a ling.
I love Darglein Multitasker trainer! I'm terrible at it. However, it has helped me with mid battle supply depots. I wrote this blog because of that trainer. I'd love to see Select own it. So I could steal some tricks off him.
Yeah, this blog became a debate between macro and unit control and proving worth based off what league you're in, I'm as much to blame as anyone for that. I'd like to think my viterirol response to the other posts was more to do with how I percieved their intentions more than what league they were in.
Thanks for you post. At Masters level, I'm sure I could learn from your technique. On Darglein Multitrainer, is your camera on your army like 95% of the time? I get wrecked by banes everytime. Also, do you have a Terran Deathball hotkey set up?
Right now I have 1-2-0 as my army Hotkeys (with tilda as 0) I'm considering moving my production hotkeys over to 5-6-7-8. Giving me `-1-2-3-4 for my units. 1-MMM, Entire Army, 3-ghosts,4-Drops or vikings. Against Protoss I need that separation in control groups to get to the next level.
That would also give me 2 hotkeys for my army 1-marine 2-tanks and 3 hotkeys for each drop when I go multiple drop play against zerg.
Not sure why everyone is hating on you so much. These things just take more practice ... macro and micro. I think you made some interesting observations when you watched the pros play that most observers would have not made ... they would just have been in awe and not really picked up on anything to help their own play. Just keep at it I guess.
i tried the stutter step way and got past lvl 11,w/ stim of course.. the trick is to move into the middle of the arena, then stim when u see the lings, and then u just gotta pick off all the blings first, as u are stuttering back. it will take a couple if not many tries, cause 1 little mistake will screw u over. anyways, its a useful practice tool, no need to get worked up over what level you get past, if u just do it for practice, ull find u get better. sorry i cant show u video, dont know how. for the multitasking trainer, yea i would say my camera is on army 95% of time. everything else you gotta do, you want to do as fast as possible, with as little time spent as possible on those screens, cause u wannna keep an eye on your army so the hts dont bone you. banelings messed me up for a while. the trick is just to control click all ur rines and run them back, and just let the marauders tankt he dmg. also, keep ur ghosts clear, and basically spend all ur micro sniping. i find splitting isnt very useful in this situation, but i could be wrong. the trick of runing only ur marines back is pretty useful in the real game too. honestly, i think 5 hotkeys is too much. means more room for error, cause maybe u wont send ur whole army. theres more room for geatness if u r very skilled, but more room for error. if uw atch alot of pros, some most of em have 2, some even have 1 (dont have specific citations, but i remembe rseeing it)--for example, im just watching forgg, arguably the best bw pro to switch over, and hes using 2 hotkeys. and this is a guy prob used to using all his hotkeys for bw. in sc2, i think using more hotkeys isnt bettter. i think ur ~12 setup is perfect already, main army being mmmv and 1 control group for ghosts and 1 for drops. but if ur dead set on having 5, then go for it. may as well get used to it now, cause if u stick with ~12 for now, its much harder to switch over. imo tho, its a bad idea.
On December 10 2011 17:14 Itsmedudeman wrote: Umm well, for macro I think it helps to cycle through your production facilities just 1234 constantly.
Also, you shouldn't cheat like that for the first micro trainer lol, kinda ruins the purpose.
I've had some coaching and they told me to save my 123 hkeys for my army. so I have 3 ccs 4 rax 5 facts 6 ports. Yeah you're right, my cycling is kinda weak.
I think I got to level 7 or 8 doing focus fire straight up. After a while you have to do something unorthodox. I might be wrong. Like I said, I'd love to see a pro, or anybody do these trainers to provide a good example. thx for the feedback
I can get to lvl 11 ish without doing anything special except stutter step + target fire. Same with the stutter step one. I'm stuck on lvl 11. I've gotten to lvl 12 on the TvZ one. The Protoss one gives me the most difficulty. I think lvl 6 or 7 is my max with stim enabled.
Focus fire is no stim + no speed, same with stutter step. TvZ is stim + speed enabled.
As for me, I've found that I'm most comfortable with 1234 as unit HK's 56789 as buildings, and 0 as dropship (I alternate with dual drops with 1 and 0). Seems to correlate to the areas I drop being the left and right expos usually. Use what works best for you.
@runforyourlife. I'll revisit focus fire...without the cheesy tactics. Did you go speed enabled as well? Makes a huge difference,
And the MTT, I'll try control clicking the marines and running from banes. I do that too in games when I go MM.
As far as HKs. You're probably right 5 army command keys might be overkill.
I picture using one HK for moving the whole army across the map. Then having ghost and stim units on separate HKs because I always misclick trying to stim they are bind since ghost is 1st unit priority. I think you have to have vikings separate too. I've seen alot of Pros kite protoss death ball with the bio, but the vikings stand their ground. If the viks are grouped with army they kite unnecessarily.
Yeah its so beautiful to see forgg's army just moving out. You can tell the air and ground units are controlled separately rather than basic singular move/attack command.
@wegandi try focus fire and stutter step let me who you do. You're HKs sound interesting. can you upload some reps on drop.sc and either post them or PM the link. I'd love to see how you manage your drops.
EPT
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