Ok, I have now read through all of these comments and thought on them.
First thing-- my sex should be completely irrelevant to any discussion not involving female biology or possibly relationship blogs. Thanks.
Second thing-- I'm really not trolling, this is my opinion, and I'm trying to have a discussion about it because I want to hear what other people have to say.
Third thing (most important)--
I think on further reflection, much of my thoughts on this are based in part on how BW gets represented many times when there is talk about it to someone who does not know the game. The overwhelming impression I have received is that watching a few games of BW, or trying to play it yourself will completely change the way you think about BW-- make you love it, make you think it's the best, make you want to learn everything you can about it and be part of that community (regardless of whether or not you drop other particular games all together in favor of it). The tone I feel like I have heard is that there is no way you can not love BW once you have been exposed to it, try watching X game and you will change your mind.
I played a small amount myself-- enough to experience the difference in the amount of multitasking and unit control it requires. I am pretty bad, but I can still appreciate this challenge.
I watched the OSL finals because it seemed that it would represent some of the best play I could see that is happening now. It was exciting, and crazy, and fun to watch.
I watched VODs on my own to find out a bit more about what was going on in the game, and see some of the amazing plays like reaver drops that everyone loves (they are pretty awesome).
I appreciated it-- I think it is a good game, and better than what is out there now. I did not have this epiphany of recognizing how much I wanted to learn more about BW and play it and celebrate it.
One of the prevailing arguments has been that if BW didn't have this inherent bit of "magic" that makes people love it, how would there be such a strong scene, and so much more success for the game than any other?
What I wonder in response-- legitimately, not disrespectfully-- is that if it has that inherent magic, why is it struggling? Why aren't thousands and thousands of new fans entering the scene? Why isn't the foreign fanbase of BW growing after it gets re-exposed to the world with the release of SC2?
If your answer is just simply that they haven't really gotten exposed to BW or understand it, go be a Jehova's Witness. You can't just say that the only reason people don't believe like you do is because they don't understand it. You have to go evangelize.
I have also seen a lot of angry or hurt-- well you just don't understand, you're wrong.
Maybe I am wrong, and so are a lot of other people, but we would be stupid to believe you because you said so. I didn't spend a long time with the game, it is true. I spent long enough to say-- well I wasn't immediately blown away by it so don't think that feeling comes from the game then.
I have seen many good posts on BW, trying to convince others to really look at it and enjoy it. There are posts like that in this thread. These are positive, but mostly still have this assumption that doing x, y, and z suggestions will convert someone to feeling a certain way. I don't think it's enough, and the insistence that it is probably hurts the cause. If you care about it that much, try something new! Find a different way to help people see what you see in the game.
The discussions in various sc2 vs bw threads have pretty much done nothing. Not a lot of people are wandering over and exploring of their own free will. Most of what you get exposed to of the BW community outside of the BW forum is all the negative stuff going on.
Show people it's good-- why aren't all of the passionate BW people on TL organizing BW events and streams, and interactive things specifically designed to involve new people in learning about BW?
This has now drifted away from my original post to an extent-- but I would like to offer something more constructive than just my opinion, and also more insight into how my opinion was formed.
I hear a lot about BW, and how much better it is than SC2. Many of the people I talk to on TL love BW. Lots of the guys I know irl who are Starcraft fans love BW. These people are so passionate and excited about their game, and angry when people dismiss it without watching it or playing it themselves. Anyone who gives it a real chance-- who watches some games, sits down and tries to play a bit, who learns about the skill involved, and the community--will realize just how special BW is.
Fair enough.
I started watching some BW vods on Youtube. I watched the OSL live with some friends a few weeks back. I got myself a copy of BW, and played parts of the campaign, and even a few games over LAN with friends.
My conclusion is this:
BW doesn't have that magic-- that special something that makes it more wonderful than any other game, or any other RTS, or w/e. It doesn't have that sparkle. On it's own, it is just an incredibly well-made RTS that got lucky in some ways, and stuck around long enough to develop beyond what we have seen in other games. It's challenging, it's fun, it's exciting to watch and play (and frustrating).
The magic of BW (or any game for that matter) is in the experience of growing with a game for so long. The game means so much to people because of the time and emotion they have invested in it-- as spectators, players, or both. The first time you see it, it's exciting, and overwhelming. There is so much going on, and so many things to learn. You watch or play more. You start to understand the basics. Then you discover just how bad you are in comparison to other people. It's discouraging, but it pushes you to try harder and appreciate the skill of others more. You develop favorite players, favorite teams. You see the game change over time, you see the community change over time. You form friendship with other people who share you love of the game. You have wonderful memories of the nights you stayed up late to watch the finals, even though you had work or school the next morning. You have anger and disappointment for the cheating scandal, and sadness for seeing your favorite player struggling to overcome injuries. After years of something being this part of your life-- how could it not have a certain magic to it that no other game gives you?
I don't put any stock in the idea that BW is more special because of it's audience and popularity. To me it seems like the Super Bowl. Millions of people watch it who don't tune in to the regular season games, who don't know the names of the players, or how they have been improving or falling behind the past few seasons. It's fun to watch and everyone throws a nice party, but it doesn't mean that football has something magic about it that so many people who don't play would tune in to watch these games.
These people don't understand the agony of seeing your team make it to the playoffs year and after year, and knowing they have the potential to reach the Super Bowl, and seeing them lose over and over. They don't have that joy every time they see the young quarterback they have been rooting for to prove himself make another perfect pass. They don't scream until they lose their voice when their team finally makes. They don't cry from being so damn happy, when that Super Bowl they have been hoping for their whole lives is finally won. (Fuck yeah I love Green Bay that much. <3)
When I was a little girl, we would drive to other people's houses to watch the game, because we didn't have a TV. My dad would read every bit of news about them, and repeat it at supper time. We would drive up to Green Bay when we visited my grandparents every summer, and pass the stadium. We would make our own signs, and wave them wildly from our living room couch, knowing if we cheered hard enough our team would win. We would take pride knowing that Green Bay is a people's team, and our team. When we moved to Dallas, we wore our Green Bay shirts loud and proud. The magic comes from how my team has been part of my life.
It's not something inherent about the game. The game may be amazingly well designed, and revolutionize an entire industry. It may be fun to watch, even if you don't play it. It may take incredible feats of skill and dedication to master. It's just a (great) game. The magic happens in how players and spectators choose to make it part of their lives and become emotionally involved with it.
Is it fair to ask someone to be respectful of a game that has been ground breaking, and not to pass it off without giving it a try? Of course.
Is it fair to ask other people to love your game or see what's so wonderful about it? Not really. Without the experience, it's just not the same. Some people will love it. Many people will think-- that's nice. The history of it is awesome. It's not so special as you say. I still like my own games best.
Remember just how meaningful a game can become to someone who invests part of their life in it. If the BW scene dies, that's the same as family member dying for many people. They are losing something that been part of their life for so long, that they care about so much. You can't replace it with anything.
But it's also important to remember you can't expect anyone else to feel exactly the way you feel. Again, it's just like losing a family member-- no matter how amazing they were, and how much you show a stranger of their wonderful life, that stranger can't have the same love and loss that you do, because they didn't have the experience.
TL;DR: Respect each other, and I found BW fun to watch, but not particularly special.
EDIT: Since people seem to not be picking up on this... my point is that whatever makes a game more wonderful to you that every other game in the world is never inherent in the game. A game can be admirable for what it does well on paper, but "the magic" is the emotional connection people develop to a game when it becomes part of their lives over time. Any game can have "the magic", it just depends on an individual's experiences with it.
I think you may not have fully understood the game. Perhaps if you are just watching the game to see things blow up, then it may not seem particularly special if you can't see the ingenuity of some of these player's plays.
Can you present something that actually does contain this so-called "magic" that would make things "special"? If you cannot give any concrete definitions or example, I don't feel like your post is very well-solidified.
On a side note, you say yourself that BW is an incredibly well-made RTS. I think that's special in it's own right.
It's hard for me to relate with a post like this, since Brood War to me is nothing but MAGIC and SPARKLE. But seriously, I think the simplest way to understand a BW fan's perspective is if you gave Super Mario Bros. on the NES to a current gen gamer, and they didn't find it to be "anything special". The point is that even games that are considered "dated" have played a huge part in people's lives, and in the case of BW, have shaped peoples lives.
It's hard to concisely express what made the game play of BW still "good" over so many years, but that's another arguments in modern game design.
@Ideas: It's not an inherent quality of any game is my point. "the magic" comes from the people who invest part of their lives into the game, until it's not just something they do when they are bored. If it means so much to you, you are emotionally connected to it. Emotional connections of any kind are built through your unique experiences. So then-- any game could have "the magic", but it won't be for everyone, just the people who fall in love with it.
@Nazza and phosphorylation--I think you may not have fully understood my post. I am not talking about the required skill to play a game well, or how difficult a game may be, or how amazing it may be compared to other games. I am talking about something that makes people love a game more than any other game in the world. My argument is that it's not something in the game, it comes from people like you whose experiences over time lead you to that love of the game.
Did you really need to post a blog just to tell all the BW people on the site that they're wrong? Like what are we supposed to say in response? "oh ya you're completely right bw actually sucks SORRY LOL"
On October 31 2011 16:02 shindigs wrote: It's hard for me to relate with a post like this, since Brood War to me is nothing but MAGIC and SPARKLE. But seriously, I think the simplest way to understand a BW fan's perspective is if you gave Super Mario Bros. on the NES to a current gen gamer, and they didn't find it to be "anything special". The point is that even games that are considered "dated" have played a huge part in people's lives, and in the case of BW, have shaped peoples lives.
It's hard to concisely express what made the game play of BW still "good" over so many years, but that's another arguments in modern game design.
super mario is of course dated, but in my opinion, BW isn't, nor do I think it can ever be. that is the difference.
I think if you bothered to read the post you would find it is actually quite sympathetic to BW and the people who love it. -.-
EDIT: @shindigs: That is exactly the whole point of everything I said. BW shaped your life, so it's magical and sparklez with everything wonderful and good about the world. If BW didn't shape my life, how can I experience that same magic? I can respect the game for what it's done, but it just can't have the same impact on me.
On October 31 2011 16:06 RedJustice wrote: @Ideas: It's not an inherent quality of any game is my point. "the magic" comes from the people who invest part of their lives into the game, until it's not just something they do when they are bored. If it means so much to you, you are emotionally connected to it. Emotional connections of any kind are built through your unique experiences. So then-- any game could have "the magic", but it won't be for everyone, just the people who fall in love with it.
@Nazza and phosphorylation--I think you may not have fully understood my post. I am not talking about the required skill to play a game well, or how difficult a game may be, or how amazing it may be compared to other games. I am talking about something that makes people love a game more than any other game in the world. My argument is that it's not something in the game, it comes from people like you whose experiences over time lead you to that love of the game.
Perhaps you are right, perhaps you are wrong. But as an actual player of the game, I think that what is in the game is quite special as well. The actual gameplay is quite fun, and I think alot of that gameplay has been lost, not in SC2, but in the games industry in general.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think you're just saying that we like the game because of nostalgia.
I dont think anyone in the world feels about command and conquer 3 how I and many others feel about broodwar. Your argument is silly. broodwar IS special. If it wasn't, it wouldn't get to the point it has.
I mean, yes, you are right in that a story and background can make things more exciting but no. If that were true then why haven't we seen other incredibly well made games turning into a phenomenon that can draw 6 digit crowds? Just luck? I don't buy that.
You might not think BW is special. Many others would disagree.
So SC2 doesn't have the magic unless you were there from the beginning of the beta? BW stories are still there, and anyone can love it, and from a sc2 fan, it's definitely a better game than sc2 right now.
I do think that this is a point that not many people stop to consider when they think about competitive games in general. Games are special in that you invest your time, effort and emotions in them and the community around such a game, and they enrich your life in ways that you might not have ever anticipated.
But I do think that there's something very special about how good BW itself was. Call it chance or call it inevitability, but there's a particular convergence of different game elements that made possible not just good, but elegant, masterful and beautiful play. That there are moments in play where you can SEE the magnificent execution of strategic thinking between two players on a level different from your own and simply be amazed.
In the end what we're marveling at is the power of the human mind, expressed through the particular medium of a video game. While I do think that much of BW's specialness comes from how the community came together and pushed it to what it is today, I also think certain games allow for this particular form of expression to come together much more easily than others. In this regard BW is one of these few games, and perhaps even the best.
On October 31 2011 16:06 RedJustice wrote: @Ideas: It's not an inherent quality of any game is my point. "the magic" comes from the people who invest part of their lives into the game, until it's not just something they do when they are bored. If it means so much to you, you are emotionally connected to it. Emotional connections of any kind are built through your unique experiences. So then-- any game could have "the magic", but it won't be for everyone, just the people who fall in love with it.
@Nazza and phosphorylation--I think you may not have fully understood my post. I am not talking about the required skill to play a game well, or how difficult a game may be, or how amazing it may be compared to other games. I am talking about something that makes people love a game more than any other game in the world. My argument is that it's not something in the game, it comes from people like you whose experiences over time lead you to that love of the game.
I don't understand why you get the idea that people think that BW is special simply because of emotional investment. I think BW is special because of the fact that when I play it, I have a lot of fun. This is because BW is an incredibly well-designed game, and one that I don't think can be matched by any RTS ever (I think BW's design has a heapload of luck involved). People should check out BW because of how well designed it is and because I think you'll have fun playing it.
On October 31 2011 16:09 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: Did you really need to post a blog just to tell all the BW people on the site that they're wrong? Like what are we supposed to say in response? "oh ya you're completely right bw actually sucks SORRY LOL"
"Let's preach to these people that the game they love and mourn now isn't any different from any other thing with fans!"
Part of me cant help but think that this is a wayyyyy too involved troll.
@Nazza: I think nostalgia carries negative feelings I don't have with it. I really find my idea of loving another person is closest to how I think of it. You can't love someone who you don't spend time with, and have experiences with. As that person becomes more and more part of your life, they become more important to you. You care about them more than someone you just talk with in class, or at work. I don't think BW fan love BW because of the 'good old days'. I think most of them fell in love long ago and the experiences since then and today continue to make all of you love the game.
Without that time, I can't have the same feelings for BW. I can admire it's strengths, and history, and impact. I can't have the same emotional connection.
@Nazza and phosphorylation--I think you may not have fully understood my post. I am not talking about the required skill to play a game well, or how difficult a game may be, or how amazing it may be compared to other games. I am talking about something that makes people love a game more than any other game in the world. My argument is that it's not something in the game, it comes from people like you whose experiences over time lead you to that love of the game.
whether i fully understood your post or not, i think being the best RTS ever created (which you don't seem to disagree on) may explain why people "love (bw) more than any other game in the world." what more can be asked from a computer game?
btw, the first time i ever played bw was in late 2007,
On October 31 2011 16:06 RedJustice wrote: @Ideas: It's not an inherent quality of any game is my point. "the magic" comes from the people who invest part of their lives into the game, until it's not just something they do when they are bored. If it means so much to you, you are emotionally connected to it. Emotional connections of any kind are built through your unique experiences. So then-- any game could have "the magic", but it won't be for everyone, just the people who fall in love with it.
@Nazza and phosphorylation--I think you may not have fully understood my post. I am not talking about the required skill to play a game well, or how difficult a game may be, or how amazing it may be compared to other games. I am talking about something that makes people love a game more than any other game in the world. My argument is that it's not something in the game, it comes from people like you whose experiences over time lead you to that love of the game.
I don't understand why you get the idea that people think that BW is special simply because of emotional investment. I think BW is special because of the fact that when I play it, I have a lot of fun. This is because BW is an incredibly well-designed game, and one that I don't think can be matched by any RTS ever (I think BW's design has a heapload of luck involved). People should check out BW because of how well designed it is and because I think you'll have fun playing it.
You know, the first time I watched pro BW was the July v Best OSL finals (gotta thank my friend for making me wake up at 5 AM). I didn't know what a golden mouse was or why July was supposed to get owned but that finals got me hooked, no prior emotional investment required. I had seen Daigo's crazy comeback, watched some professional dota matches but I was never hooked on watching a game enough to lose sleep over it.
If you didn't get excited watching the last OSL finals then I don't know what to say.
On October 31 2011 16:18 RedJustice wrote: @Nazza: I think nostalgia carries negative feelings I don't have with it. I really find my idea of loving another person is closest to how I think of it. You can't love someone who you don't spend time with, and have experiences with. As that person becomes more and more part of your life, they become more important to you. You care about them more than someone you just talk with in class, or at work. I don't think BW fan love BW because of the 'good old days'. I think most of them fell in love long ago and the experiences since then and today continue to make all of you love the game.
Without that time, I can't have the same feelings for BW. I can admire it's strengths, and history, and impact. I can't have the same emotional connection.
I only started playing BW after SC2 came out.
And your analogy is flawed. Why would you spend time with that person in the first place if you didn't find something attractive about them?
On October 31 2011 15:53 RedJustice wrote: BW doesn't have that magic-- that special something that makes it more wonderful than any other game, or any other RTS, or w/e. It doesn't have that sparkle. On it's own, it is just an incredibly well-made RTS that got lucky in some ways, and stuck around long enough to develop beyond what we have seen in other games. It's challenging, it's fun, it's exciting to watch and play (and frustrating).
TL wouldn't exist if this was true. Its not some weird oddity that the most passionate gaming community on the internet exists for "this one game that is like every other". You know why we have comprehensive resources that detail the entire history of our game, literally every single recorded match, and you can't find shit about WC3 history or how CS evolved or Daigo's career win-loss record? It's not an accident.
On October 31 2011 16:20 Smix wrote: I didn't grow up with BW either - joined pretty late in the history of things but I still fell in love ;;
That is awesome.
@all: I don't think you have to have been there from the beta to love BW or something. You make really like it the first time you see it but it takes a bit of time to really love something. Also, sometimes no matter how great someone is, you just don't have that attraction to them.
Yes, I do think all of the concrete aspects of BW help in terms of the number of people who love it.
@Jumperer: Sexism and general assholery is not welcome.
Brood War is magical, what you're hinting at is this nostalgic feeling of attachment similar to old Disney films and how people reminiscence about it.
WarCraft III is magical for for me and its expansion: The Frozen Throne, will forever have those aged laughs of nostalgia where I remember 3v3s with two Orcs and myself as undead. All those DotA games, etc. Those were good times and magical.
Brood War is magical in a much different sense. Its atmosphere, ambiance and units are embody this sense of greatness. You can't know about it by simply looking into that great lake, dipping your feet in and assume everything based on how cold the water is. Dive in, swim to the bottom and resurface. Come back to Brood War and do it again.
For the past several weeks, I've been watching and falling asleep to OSL/MSL games (thanks GTR) recommended by some staff and veteran players. I do bi-daily Big Game Hunters with Meapak and I try to beat the AI as Terran with Oov's 1-Factory Expansion.
If you're not immersing yourself entirely, head to toe, into a game, you will never get a glimpse or experience a hint of what everyone is talking about
Recently, I watched a game of PvP that didn't involve a combination of three units. I didn't see a game where after you overcome your opponent, you simply move forward and with your Goku's Spirit Bomb of units. I saw a PvP where it escalated: first zealots and dragoons playing footsie as the third base was taken, then moved on to Arbiters and so and so forth. The game shifted, it was difficult to call who was going to win and although I don't know a single build besides what I named above, I could see a tide of battles going on. I could see grow, escalate and expand. Now on 6 bases, there was both harassment going on and a major attack at the forefront. A wild spectacle of both difficult micromanagement and sturdy control and bewildering apm (presumably).
You see this in almost all the match-ups, it's never truly game over until the very last 10 minutes (after like a 35-minute game).
That's not to say SC2 doesn't have its charms, it's a lot easier to follow and it's a lot more clear in what's happening. They both have their beauties, but Brood War is already developed, its nooks and crannies have been dusted and all troves of goodies have been played and recorded for you to watch and enjoy.
I'm still waiting for StarCraft II to build its foundation and expand both socially and game-wise, but for Brood War, there is something enigmatic and grand about it, something that makes it feel like its a war in each match rather than each match being a part of some arbitrary war that is hardly noted in the campaign.
Keep going and trying, the first pair of Brood War shoes probably won't fit ya, but keep trying new pairs until you get it right. Brood War has the magic you might be misdirecting, you just need to rub that lamp more.
*how many analogies did I use
what I love the most about Brood War is knowing I suck and discovering the units, how to play them and work with other units. I like knowing that there is probably no chance I'll ever get remotely good because it demands more than I am capable of doing (seriously, macroing a Terran production facilities is fucking impossible), so there is no pressure for me to majorly improve but go at a pace I am comfortable with.
P.S: I hope I didn't make any mistakes. That game I was talking about was about a week ago and I recall the PvT more than PvP.
No real point in trying to convince someone otherwise, it's a lot like telling somebody to like a food they don't actually like.
Of course I still have to note...
BroodWar... Is... Magic
ALSO
Most 'magical' feelings stem from a nostalgic feeling, I am like that with BW, Warcraft III (wow I loved that game, hope we get a WC4 sometime in the future ^.^) and Age Of Empires.
There's this girl that you like. She's kinda cute but you don't know if you like her enough to "love" her or not. You spend some time and get to know her and before you know it you're in a 10 year relationship and have had some of the best times of your lives together.
Then some douchebag comes along and tells you she's ugly.
i love bw, and i dont feel like there is any "magic" associated with it other than the extreme miracle that it is the most well made RTS so far in the history of RTS. im not really sure what people are getting at with all this magic talk. i would just call brood war a damn great game surrounded by a damn great community and damn great entertainment, no magic about it.
On October 31 2011 16:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: There's this girl that you like. She's kinda cute but you don't know if you like her enough to "love" her or not. You spend some time and get to know her and before you know it you're in a 10 year relationship and have had some of the best times of your lives together.
Then some douchebag comes along and tells you she's ugly.
You'll always be beautiful to me, She-I mean Brood War...
On October 31 2011 16:11 RedJustice wrote: I think if you bothered to read the post you would find it is actually quite sympathetic to BW and the people who love it. -.-
EDIT: @shindigs: That is exactly the whole point of everything I said. BW shaped your life, so it's magical and sparklez with everything wonderful and good about the world. If BW didn't shape my life, how can I experience that same magic? I can respect the game for what it's done, but it just can't have the same impact on me.
Yes you are correct that our own personal emotional/time investments into the game, the overall popularity, and the fervent clamor of the scene does make it more special and magical in our hearts.
That being true does not mean it's the only reason why SC is so awesome to us. Infact, it's at the very bottom of the list.
You have to remember, before all of us became obsessed with SC, we were just your average nerd gamers playing all sorts of games like quake, age of empires, diablo, etc. There was no sparkly magical world of pro-gaming, there was no Team Liquid, there was no emotional investment. But we just kept playing and playing and playing. Why? The game is fucking good on all levels. And you could attempt to counter argue saying that Counterstrike or Warcraft3 hardcore players could be saying the exact same thing.
But actually you can't. Why? With a few exceptions, almost every single person that I know that has played SC1 hardcore is an incredible person in one way or another. SC players are just a step above in intelligence from players of other games. SC players have lives and street smarts too. Hell, no one would even guess that most of us are gamer nerds at first glance. The demographic of people in the SC scene are many notches above the demographics of other games by a longshot in life(this is especially true for anyone that has played SC:BW on a high level). This isn't due to random variance, it's because the game is that "magical" to have captured the hearts of so many intelligent people. I can't count the amounts of retarded people I've met who like other games LOL.
And just because you've played some BGH and watched some pro-games on TV doesn't mean you know anything about the game whatsoever. The very fact that you made this blog shows that you know absolutely nothing about Starcraft.
I don't get your point. You might as well say "You shouldn't push BW onto others cause they might not like it", but you can replace BW with any other thing you like, and you'll definitely disagree with it.
On October 31 2011 16:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: There's this girl that you like. She's kinda cute but you don't know if you like her enough to "love" her or not. You spend some time and get to know her and before you know it you're in a 10 year relationship and have had some of the best times of your lives together.
Then some douchebag comes along and tells you she's ugly.
? I didn't say that. I said I came along, and you told me just how amazing she was, and how no other girl in the world is like her. And I talked to her a bit, and concluded that I don't feel the same way as you do about her, even though she's a really awesome person. I also concluded I probably also don't feel the same way because I don't have the same kind of experiences with her that you do that make you love her so much.
On October 31 2011 16:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: There's this girl that you like. She's kinda cute but you don't know if you like her enough to "love" her or not. You spend some time and get to know her and before you know it you're in a 10 year relationship and have had some of the best times of your lives together.
Then some douchebag comes along and tells you she's ugly.
? I didn't say that. I said I came along, and you told me just how amazing she was, and how no other girl in the world is like her. And I talked to her a bit, and concluded that I don't feel the same way as you do about her, even though she's a really awesome person. I also concluded I probably also don't feel the same way because I don't have the same kind of experiences with her that you do that make you love her so much.
Do you do that in real life to people? If not why are you doing it here lol.
Not everyone likes the same things we don't need a poorly worded potentially antagonizing blog to get that point across.
On October 31 2011 16:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: There's this girl that you like. She's kinda cute but you don't know if you like her enough to "love" her or not. You spend some time and get to know her and before you know it you're in a 10 year relationship and have had some of the best times of your lives together.
Then some douchebag comes along and tells you she's ugly.
? I didn't say that. I said I came along, and you told me just how amazing she was, and how no other girl in the world is like her. And I talked to her a bit, and concluded that I don't feel the same way as you do about her, even though she's a really awesome person. I also concluded I probably also don't feel the same way because I don't have the same kind of experiences with her that you do that make you love her so much.
But you had to go on a long spiel in an attempt to convince us that our love isn't truly special? Did you think that would work?
I sort of know what you mean. As a new person to watching BW it would be hard to appreciate it without having followed all the ups and downs of players and knowing how difficult what they're doing is.
There are WC3 fans who probably genuinely believe that game was better than BW (ridiculous I know!) because for whatever reason, that's the community they gravitated towards.
I genuinely believe that BW is the best RTS, and best E-sports spectator sport in general but in the end I guess it does come down to personal opinion. There's really no objective way to measure these things. We can insist all we want that BW is the greatest, but if someone has different tastes (they might really like see a couple of heroes walking around bashing neutral creeps instead of epic spread out armies clashing ) then there's really nothing you can say to them. In the end you're right I supppose- liking BW is as subjective as liking anything else. The only thing we can say for sure is that BW definitely had the most developed progaming culture for it's time (until Sc2 came out).
On October 31 2011 16:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: There's this girl that you like. She's kinda cute but you don't know if you like her enough to "love" her or not. You spend some time and get to know her and before you know it you're in a 10 year relationship and have had some of the best times of your lives together.
Then some douchebag comes along and tells you she's ugly.
? I didn't say that. I said I came along, and you told me just how amazing she was, and how no other girl in the world is like her. And I talked to her a bit, and concluded that I don't feel the same way as you do about her, even though she's a really awesome person. I also concluded I probably also don't feel the same way because I don't have the same kind of experiences with her that you do that make you love her so much.
Do you do that in real life to people? If not why are you doing it here lol.
Not everyone likes the same things we don't need a poorly worded potentially antagonizing blog to get that point across.
I think the point of this blog is to get bw fans to stop talking about how its so much better than anything else; trying to point out that whatever elitism we hold is really a product of some irrational emotional response.
RedJustice you'd have been a lot better off writing a blog about how the 'magical pizzazz razzle tazzle' created by the growing scene is why so many people play and love to watch SC2 not because the game is good, because that'd certainly have been true.
On October 31 2011 16:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: There's this girl that you like. She's kinda cute but you don't know if you like her enough to "love" her or not. You spend some time and get to know her and before you know it you're in a 10 year relationship and have had some of the best times of your lives together.
Then some douchebag comes along and tells you she's ugly.
? I didn't say that. I said I came along, and you told me just how amazing she was, and how no other girl in the world is like her. And I talked to her a bit, and concluded that I don't feel the same way as you do about her, even though she's a really awesome person. I also concluded I probably also don't feel the same way because I don't have the same kind of experiences with her that you do that make you love her so much.
No. What you said was that there wasn't anything inherently special about her that made her better than any other girl, and that the only reason why anyone would love her is because they've known her for 10 years. Whether or not it's true, you don't tell a guy that his girlfriend is "nothing special."
On October 31 2011 15:53 RedJustice wrote: BW doesn't have that magic-- that special something that makes it more wonderful than any other game, or any other RTS, or w/e. It doesn't have that sparkle. On it's own, it is just an incredibly well-made RTS that got lucky in some ways, and stuck around long enough to develop beyond what we have seen in other games. It's challenging, it's fun, it's exciting to watch and play (and frustrating).
TL wouldn't exist if this was true. Its not some weird oddity that the most passionate gaming community on the internet exists for "this one game that is like every other". You know why we have comprehensive resources that detail the entire history of our game, literally every single recorded match, and you can't find shit about WC3 history or how CS evolved or Daigo's career win-loss record? It's not an accident.
On October 31 2011 16:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: There's this girl that you like. She's kinda cute but you don't know if you like her enough to "love" her or not. You spend some time and get to know her and before you know it you're in a 10 year relationship and have had some of the best times of your lives together.
Then some douchebag comes along and tells you she's ugly.
? I didn't say that. I said I came along, and you told me just how amazing she was, and how no other girl in the world is like her. And I talked to her a bit, and concluded that I don't feel the same way as you do about her, even though she's a really awesome person. I also concluded I probably also don't feel the same way because I don't have the same kind of experiences with her that you do that make you love her so much.
Do you do that in real life to people? If not why are you doing it here lol.
Not everyone likes the same things we don't need a poorly worded potentially antagonizing blog to get that point across.
I think the point of this blog is to get bw fans to stop talking about how its so much better than anything else; trying to point out that whatever elitism we hold is really a product of some irrational emotional response.
Well, there are a lot of concrete things you can say about why BW is better than other games:
It requires more practice and skill to play well. It is an old game that hasn't gotten old because there are still amazing things to be done with it. It has revolutionized esports and started a culture of gaming with community like this. It is wildly successful in viewers and money.
But that doesn't make someone love a game, just appreciate it a ton.
EDIT: Since people seem to not be picking up on this... my point is that whatever makes a game more wonderful to you that every other game in the world is never inherent in the game.
This is so wrong I dont even know where to begin. You are pretty much saying every competitive scene is made up of nostalgia? WTF?
Why are we not seeing a competitive Duke Nukem Forever clan league then?
On October 31 2011 16:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: There's this girl that you like. She's kinda cute but you don't know if you like her enough to "love" her or not. You spend some time and get to know her and before you know it you're in a 10 year relationship and have had some of the best times of your lives together.
Then some douchebag comes along and tells you she's ugly.
Keep in mind all of the above started cause your friend that lives across the US set you up with her on facebook.
On October 31 2011 15:53 RedJustice wrote: These people don't understand the agony of seeing your team make it to the playoffs year and after year, and knowing they have the potential to reach the Super Bowl, and seeing them lose over and over.
On October 31 2011 16:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: There's this girl that you like. She's kinda cute but you don't know if you like her enough to "love" her or not. You spend some time and get to know her and before you know it you're in a 10 year relationship and have had some of the best times of your lives together.
Then some douchebag comes along and tells you she's ugly.
This quote is actually backing up the OP's 'point' if you think about it. LOL.
The first season I watched was when Boxer and Iloveoov dominated everyone and there was a TvT final (2004 I believe). It turned me into the fine terran hater I am today.
On October 31 2011 16:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: There's this girl that you like. She's kinda cute but you don't know if you like her enough to "love" her or not. You spend some time and get to know her and before you know it you're in a 10 year relationship and have had some of the best times of your lives together.
Then some douchebag comes along and tells you she's ugly.
? I didn't say that. I said I came along, and you told me just how amazing she was, and how no other girl in the world is like her. And I talked to her a bit, and concluded that I don't feel the same way as you do about her, even though she's a really awesome person. I also concluded I probably also don't feel the same way because I don't have the same kind of experiences with her that you do that make you love her so much.
Do you do that in real life to people? If not why are you doing it here lol.
Not everyone likes the same things we don't need a poorly worded potentially antagonizing blog to get that point across.
I think the point of this blog is to get bw fans to stop talking about how its so much better than anything else; trying to point out that whatever elitism we hold is really a product of some irrational emotional response.
Well, there are a lot of concrete things you can say about why BW is better than other games:
It requires more practice and skill to play well. It is an old game that hasn't gotten old because there are still amazing things to be done with it. It has revolutionized esports and started a culture of gaming with community like this. It is wildly successful in viewers and money.
But that doesn't make someone love a game, just appreciate it a ton.
Wtf? Why not? It's amazing to watch BW games because it's BW, and BW is a better game than it has ever been right now. There was no golden age of BW, it's only improved as the gameplay improved.
On October 31 2011 16:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: There's this girl that you like. She's kinda cute but you don't know if you like her enough to "love" her or not. You spend some time and get to know her and before you know it you're in a 10 year relationship and have had some of the best times of your lives together.
Then some douchebag comes along and tells you she's ugly.
Keep in mind all of the above started cause your friend that lives across the US set you up with her on facebook.
exactly, that's a big part of the magic, it's like your relationship with this girl is truly miraculous and fantastic
i think if one of my friends worked hard to set me up with a great girl, i'd be all the more appreciative
On October 31 2011 15:53 RedJustice wrote: These people don't understand the agony of seeing your team make it to the playoffs year and after year, and knowing they have the potential to reach the Super Bowl, and seeing them lose over and over.
ahahahahahahaha where are the CJ fans at?
I was casually reading through this thread until I get to the 3rd page then WHAM suckerpunch.
I only got into BW many years after first playing WC2 (which I didn't really play for very long). When I was a "WC2 player," I snubbed Starcraft; it was just one of those bandwagon games.
Little did I know that 8 years later, I'd fall in love with that which I once disdained...
I like to play games, and some more than others. But I get bored pretty easily; I usually won't play a game for more than a few years. The exceptions? Tetris, BW, SSBM. I'm only good at one of those . Actually, I don't even play much BW anymore because it's too hard (lol), but I'm not sure I can imagine life without watching pro BW in the future.
So, I'm really confused by this blog.
If the magic isn't in the game of Brood War, where is it? Can any game, any sport, any activity draw you in unless there's the "magic spark"? If BW doesn't have it, what does?
Yes, there was luck. Yes, it was basically a fluke. But...
What is your "magic"? Is the "magic" present in the wildly popular, casual (yet vaguely challenging) games geared toward the masses--Tetris, Angry Birds, Bejeweled, Text Twist? Or is it in the crevices of more cranial activities like chess or Go? Is it in the creative sandbox of Minecraft, the massive community of WoW or EVE, the frame-perfect movements of SSBM or SF, the lightning precision of CS, the I'm-so-addicted-I-drop-out-of-school DotA or LoL?
Each of these games has its proponents, its fans, its addicts, its heroes. Many can be classified as "ESPORTS," whatever that is. Some of them even have the "magic."
But look at those games, and look back at BW. What "magic" do they have that BW lacks? Community? Creativity? The combination of mind and hand, the evolving metagame, the passion, the heroes, the villains?
And of course, I haven't even begun comparing BW to similar RTS games yet. Before SC2, which games came close--WC3? AoE2? Did these games have the "spark"? If not, what sets BW apart from them... why the crowds, the cheerfuls, the commentators (which I think many will admit are miles ahead of commentary for most games)?
Now SC2 may perhaps prove a worthy challenger, though it is by no stretch of the imagination another Brood War: it's a different game. Yet it can, may, and hopefully will be improved, and perhaps one day even I'll recognize the "magic" in it. There's potential. But for me right now, the only game with any sort of "magic" to speak of is still Brood War.
These are all halfway rhetorical questions; if you could provide an answer, that'd be even better. I guess I just don't understand.
On October 31 2011 15:53 RedJustice wrote: These people don't understand the agony of seeing your team make it to the playoffs year and after year, and knowing they have the potential to reach the Super Bowl, and seeing them lose over and over.
ahahahahahahaha where are the CJ fans at?
I was casually reading through this thread until I get to the 3rd page then WHAM suckerpunch.
EDIT: Since people seem to not be picking up on this... my point is that whatever makes a game more wonderful to you that every other game in the world is never inherent in the game. A game can be admirable for what it does well on paper, but "the magic" is the emotional connection people develop to a game when it becomes part of their lives over time. Any game can have "the magic", it just depends on an individual's experiences with it.
Okay, but isn't everything like that then, game or not? I mean, taking care of a lawn is pretty mundane for most people but if you slaved extra hard to get it weed-free and looking pretty and spent 2 years turning it into the thickest greenest turf around wouldn't you love it? I think its pretty self-evident that if you spend a long time with something you will have more of an attachment to it.
Someone was trying to do what you did, but figured the right way to do it. Hope this helps and if you want to play BW, let me know :3 I love playing it!
On October 31 2011 16:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: There's this girl that you like. She's kinda cute but you don't know if you like her enough to "love" her or not. You spend some time and get to know her and before you know it you're in a 10 year relationship and have had some of the best times of your lives together.
Then some douchebag comes along and tells you she's ugly.
Keep in mind all of the above started cause your friend that lives across the US set you up with her on facebook.
exactly, that's a big part of the magic, it's like your relationship with this girl is truly miraculous and fantastic
i think if one of my friends worked hard to set me up with a great girl, i'd be all the more appreciative
One would even think that you'd thank him instead of going on a tirade about them and telling them they did nothing, huh.
On October 31 2011 16:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: There's this girl that you like. She's kinda cute but you don't know if you like her enough to "love" her or not. You spend some time and get to know her and before you know it you're in a 10 year relationship and have had some of the best times of your lives together.
Then some douchebag comes along and tells you she's ugly.
? I didn't say that. I said I came along, and you told me just how amazing she was, and how no other girl in the world is like her. And I talked to her a bit, and concluded that I don't feel the same way as you do about her, even though she's a really awesome person. I also concluded I probably also don't feel the same way because I don't have the same kind of experiences with her that you do that make you love her so much.
Do you do that in real life to people? If not why are you doing it here lol.
Not everyone likes the same things we don't need a poorly worded potentially antagonizing blog to get that point across.
I think the point of this blog is to get bw fans to stop talking about how its so much better than anything else; trying to point out that whatever elitism we hold is really a product of some irrational emotional response.
Well, there are a lot of concrete things you can say about why BW is better than other games:
It requires more practice and skill to play well. It is an old game that hasn't gotten old because there are still amazing things to be done with it.
But that doesn't make someone love a game, just appreciate it a ton.
I think there's a particular ferocity of BW love because many of the people who have followed it for years did so in a very serious way. It's easier to be a casual SC2 fan than a casual BW fan because there's so many opportunities to watch and interact. SC2 is the pretty girl who's automatically endearing if you're a nerd. BW is kind of old and blocky, and she doesn't come out unless it's the middle of the night, so the people who stay up to see her absolutely adore her and are extremely dedicated fans. The type of fans who build stuff like TLPD just because it's cool, not with any ESPORTS intentions in mind. That's where the hardcore feelings you're talking about are coming from.
Besides that, though, is the unbelievable depth that the game contains. That on its own, even without watching or playing it, deserves an immense amount of appreciation, and is why BW pros receive the utmost respect, even from professionals of other games. The more you watch and see the fine details, the more that respect will turn into love. So it is and it isn't within BW itself. Part of it is the culture that has developed around it, but that culture is also predicated upon the smallest details of the game, so much so that it is studied more than any other ESPORT to date. I think if you put in some time to find those details, it's impossible not to fall in love.
My suggestion is to pick an awesome team like CJ, and not a shitty team like SKT, and follow them through a Proleague season. Watching 1 final, without knowing the players in advance, isn't quite the same.
My suggestion is to pick an awesome team like CJ, and not a shitty team like SKT, and follow them through a Proleague season. Watching 1 final, without knowing the players in advance, isn't quite the same.
On October 31 2011 16:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: There's this girl that you like. She's kinda cute but you don't know if you like her enough to "love" her or not. You spend some time and get to know her and before you know it you're in a 10 year relationship and have had some of the best times of your lives together.
Then some douchebag comes along and tells you she's ugly.
? I didn't say that. I said I came along, and you told me just how amazing she was, and how no other girl in the world is like her. And I talked to her a bit, and concluded that I don't feel the same way as you do about her, even though she's a really awesome person. I also concluded I probably also don't feel the same way because I don't have the same kind of experiences with her that you do that make you love her so much.
Do you do that in real life to people? If not why are you doing it here lol.
Not everyone likes the same things we don't need a poorly worded potentially antagonizing blog to get that point across.
I think the point of this blog is to get bw fans to stop talking about how its so much better than anything else; trying to point out that whatever elitism we hold is really a product of some irrational emotional response.
Well, there are a lot of concrete things you can say about why BW is better than other games:
It requires more practice and skill to play well. It is an old game that hasn't gotten old because there are still amazing things to be done with it.
But that doesn't make someone love a game, just appreciate it a ton.
I think there's a particular ferocity of BW love because many of the people who have followed it for years did so in a very serious way. It's easier to be a casual SC2 fan than a casual BW fan because there's so many opportunities to watch and interact. SC2 is the pretty girl who's automatically endearing if you're a nerd. BW is kind of old and blocky, and she doesn't come out unless it's the middle of the night, so the people who stay up to see her absolutely adore her and are extremely dedicated fans. The type of fans who build stuff like TLPD just because it's cool, not with any ESPORTS intentions in mind. That's where the hardcore feelings you're talking about are coming from.
Besides that, though, is the unbelievable depth that the game contains. That on its own, even without watching or playing it, deserves an immense amount of appreciation, and is why BW pros receive the utmost respect, even from professionals of other games. The more you watch and see the fine details, the more that respect will turn into love. So it is and it isn't within BW itself. Part of it is the culture that has developed around it, but that culture is also predicated upon the smallest details of the game, so much so that it is studied more than any other ESPORT to date. I think if you put in some time to find those details, it's impossible not to fall in love.
My suggestion is to pick an awesome team like CJ, and not a shitty team like SKT, and follow them through a Proleague season. Watching 1 final, without knowing the players in advance, isn't quite the same.
On October 31 2011 16:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: There's this girl that you like. She's kinda cute but you don't know if you like her enough to "love" her or not. You spend some time and get to know her and before you know it you're in a 10 year relationship and have had some of the best times of your lives together.
Then some douchebag comes along and tells you she's ugly.
? I didn't say that. I said I came along, and you told me just how amazing she was, and how no other girl in the world is like her. And I talked to her a bit, and concluded that I don't feel the same way as you do about her, even though she's a really awesome person. I also concluded I probably also don't feel the same way because I don't have the same kind of experiences with her that you do that make you love her so much.
Do you do that in real life to people? If not why are you doing it here lol.
Not everyone likes the same things we don't need a poorly worded potentially antagonizing blog to get that point across.
I think the point of this blog is to get bw fans to stop talking about how its so much better than anything else; trying to point out that whatever elitism we hold is really a product of some irrational emotional response.
Well, there are a lot of concrete things you can say about why BW is better than other games:
It requires more practice and skill to play well. It is an old game that hasn't gotten old because there are still amazing things to be done with it.
But that doesn't make someone love a game, just appreciate it a ton.
I think there's a particular ferocity of BW love because many of the people who have followed it for years did so in a very serious way. It's easier to be a casual SC2 fan than a casual BW fan because there's so many opportunities to watch and interact. SC2 is the pretty girl who's automatically endearing if you're a nerd. BW is kind of old and blocky, and she doesn't come out unless it's the middle of the night, so the people who stay up to see her absolutely adore her and are extremely dedicated fans. The type of fans who build stuff like TLPD just because it's cool, not with any ESPORTS intentions in mind. That's where the hardcore feelings you're talking about are coming from.
Besides that, though, is the unbelievable depth that the game contains. That on its own, even without watching or playing it, deserves an immense amount of appreciation, and is why BW pros receive the utmost respect, even from professionals of other games. The more you watch and see the fine details, the more that respect will turn into love. So it is and it isn't within BW itself. Part of it is the culture that has developed around it, but that culture is also predicated upon the smallest details of the game, so much so that it is studied more than any other ESPORT to date. I think if you put in some time to find those details, it's impossible not to fall in love.
My suggestion is to pick an awesome team like CJ, and not a shitty team like SKT, and follow them through a Proleague season. Watching 1 final, without knowing the players in advance, isn't quite the same.
and she has a magic vagina
Supposedly it's not a magic vagina. Its just a regular old vagina but if you spend 10 years with it and you'll think its magic.
On October 31 2011 16:51 ]343[ wrote: I only got into BW many years after first playing WC2 (which I didn't really play for very long). When I was a "WC2 player," I snubbed Starcraft; it was just one of those bandwagon games.
Little did I know that 8 years later, I'd fall in love with that which I once disdained...
I like to play games, and some more than others. But I get bored pretty easily; I usually won't play a game for more than a few years. The exceptions? Tetris, BW, SSBM. I'm only good at one of those . Actually, I don't even play much BW anymore because it's too hard (lol), but I'm not sure I can imagine life without watching pro BW in the future.
So, I'm really confused by this blog.
If the magic isn't in the game of Brood War, where is it? Can any game, any sport, any activity draw you in unless there's the "magic spark"? If BW doesn't have it, what does?
Yes, there was luck. Yes, it was basically a fluke. But...
What is your "spark"? Is the "spark" present in the wildly popular, casual (yet vaguely challenging) games geared toward the masses--Tetris, Angry Birds, Bejeweled, Text Twist? Or is it in the crevices of more cranial activities like chess or Go? Is it in the creative sandbox of Minecraft, the massive community of WoW or EVE, the frame-perfect movements of SSBM or SF, the lightning precision of CS, the I'm-so-addicted-I-drop-out-of-school DotA or LoL?
Each of these games has its proponents, its fans, its addicts, its heroes. Many can be classified as "ESPORTS," whatever that is. Some of them even have the "spark."
But look at those games, and look back at BW. What "spark" do they have that BW lacks? Community? Creativity? The combination of mind and hand, the evolving metagame, the passion, the heroes, the villains?
And of course, I haven't even begun comparing BW to similar RTS games yet. Before SC2, which games came close--WC3? AoE2? Did these games have the "spark"? If not, what sets BW apart from them... why the crowds, the cheerfuls, the commentators (which I think many will admit are miles ahead of commentary for most games)?
Now SC2 may perhaps prove a worthy challenger, though it is by no stretch of the imagination another Brood War: it's a different game. Yet it can, may, and hopefully will be improved, and perhaps one day even I'll recognize the "spark" in it. There's potential. But for me right now, the only game with any sort of "spark" to speak of is still Brood War.
These are all halfway rhetorical questions; if you could provide an answer, that'd be even better. I guess I just don't understand.
Hm, please excuse me if this is not helping you understand. It's late and I reread your post quite a bit, but I am not sure if I am hitting everything of your ideas.
Why do you care about a game? Not just intellectually appreciating the community, creativity, the combination of mind and hand, the evolving metagame, the passion, the heroes, the villains-- but being passionate about the game in your heart.
People find many games fun, but they are not going to be passionate about all of them. I find SC2 very fun, and entertaining to watch-- and for me, it doesn't have that 'magic' about it. It may become magical to me over time, as I spend more time here, make more friends, go to more events, get better at the game: building it into my life. Maybe BW will become magical to me through putting more time into it.
My thought is that no one can be passionate about something in their heart simply from listing x, y, and z qualities that are better than anything else out there. Those qualities make more people attracted to the game and spend time with it, but experiences are what form that emotional passion about the game.
On October 31 2011 15:53 RedJustice wrote: These people don't understand the agony of seeing your team make it to the playoffs year and after year, and knowing they have the potential to reach the Super Bowl, and seeing them lose over and over.
ahahahahahahaha where are the CJ fans at?
LOL makes this entire thread worth it
THOUGH they did win winners league in an epic series
On October 31 2011 16:51 ]343[ wrote: I only got into BW many years after first playing WC2 (which I didn't really play for very long). When I was a "WC2 player," I snubbed Starcraft; it was just one of those bandwagon games.
Little did I know that 8 years later, I'd fall in love with that which I once disdained...
I like to play games, and some more than others. But I get bored pretty easily; I usually won't play a game for more than a few years. The exceptions? Tetris, BW, SSBM. I'm only good at one of those . Actually, I don't even play much BW anymore because it's too hard (lol), but I'm not sure I can imagine life without watching pro BW in the future.
So, I'm really confused by this blog.
If the magic isn't in the game of Brood War, where is it? Can any game, any sport, any activity draw you in unless there's the "magic spark"? If BW doesn't have it, what does?
Yes, there was luck. Yes, it was basically a fluke. But...
What is your "spark"? Is the "spark" present in the wildly popular, casual (yet vaguely challenging) games geared toward the masses--Tetris, Angry Birds, Bejeweled, Text Twist? Or is it in the crevices of more cranial activities like chess or Go? Is it in the creative sandbox of Minecraft, the massive community of WoW or EVE, the frame-perfect movements of SSBM or SF, the lightning precision of CS, the I'm-so-addicted-I-drop-out-of-school DotA or LoL?
Each of these games has its proponents, its fans, its addicts, its heroes. Many can be classified as "ESPORTS," whatever that is. Some of them even have the "spark."
But look at those games, and look back at BW. What "spark" do they have that BW lacks? Community? Creativity? The combination of mind and hand, the evolving metagame, the passion, the heroes, the villains?
And of course, I haven't even begun comparing BW to similar RTS games yet. Before SC2, which games came close--WC3? AoE2? Did these games have the "spark"? If not, what sets BW apart from them... why the crowds, the cheerfuls, the commentators (which I think many will admit are miles ahead of commentary for most games)?
Now SC2 may perhaps prove a worthy challenger, though it is by no stretch of the imagination another Brood War: it's a different game. Yet it can, may, and hopefully will be improved, and perhaps one day even I'll recognize the "spark" in it. There's potential. But for me right now, the only game with any sort of "spark" to speak of is still Brood War.
These are all halfway rhetorical questions; if you could provide an answer, that'd be even better. I guess I just don't understand.
Hm, please excuse me if this is not helping you understand. It's late and I reread your post quite a bit, but I am not sure if I am hitting everything of your ideas.
Why do you care about a game? Not just intellectually appreciating the community, creativity, the combination of mind and hand, the evolving metagame, the passion, the heroes, the villains-- but being passionate about the game in your heart.
People find many games fun, but they are not going to be passionate about all of them. I find SC2 very fun, and entertaining to watch-- and for me, it doesn't have that 'magic' about it. It may become magical to me over time, as I spend more time here, make more friends, go to more events, get better at the game: building it into my life. Maybe BW will become magical to me through putting more time into it.
My thought is that no one can be passionate about something in their heart simply from listing x, y, and z qualities that are better than anything else out there. Those qualities make more people attracted to the game and spend time with it, but experiences are what form that emotional passion about the game.
The bottom line is, SO WHAT? None of these insights are groundbreaking, everyone knows. why make a blog about it and potentially antagonizing a lot of people, which you've obviously done?
On October 31 2011 16:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: There's this girl that you like. She's kinda cute but you don't know if you like her enough to "love" her or not. You spend some time and get to know her and before you know it you're in a 10 year relationship and have had some of the best times of your lives together.
Then some douchebag comes along and tells you she's ugly.
? I didn't say that. I said I came along, and you told me just how amazing she was, and how no other girl in the world is like her. And I talked to her a bit, and concluded that I don't feel the same way as you do about her, even though she's a really awesome person. I also concluded I probably also don't feel the same way because I don't have the same kind of experiences with her that you do that make you love her so much.
Do you do that in real life to people? If not why are you doing it here lol.
Not everyone likes the same things we don't need a poorly worded potentially antagonizing blog to get that point across.
I think the point of this blog is to get bw fans to stop talking about how its so much better than anything else; trying to point out that whatever elitism we hold is really a product of some irrational emotional response.
Well, there are a lot of concrete things you can say about why BW is better than other games:
It requires more practice and skill to play well. It is an old game that hasn't gotten old because there are still amazing things to be done with it.
But that doesn't make someone love a game, just appreciate it a ton.
I think there's a particular ferocity of BW love because many of the people who have followed it for years did so in a very serious way. It's easier to be a casual SC2 fan than a casual BW fan because there's so many opportunities to watch and interact. SC2 is the pretty girl who's automatically endearing if you're a nerd. BW is kind of old and blocky, and she doesn't come out unless it's the middle of the night, so the people who stay up to see her absolutely adore her and are extremely dedicated fans. The type of fans who build stuff like TLPD just because it's cool, not with any ESPORTS intentions in mind. That's where the hardcore feelings you're talking about are coming from.
Besides that, though, is the unbelievable depth that the game contains. That on its own, even without watching or playing it, deserves an immense amount of appreciation, and is why BW pros receive the utmost respect, even from professionals of other games. The more you watch and see the fine details, the more that respect will turn into love. So it is and it isn't within BW itself. Part of it is the culture that has developed around it, but that culture is also predicated upon the smallest details of the game, so much so that it is studied more than any other ESPORT to date. I think if you put in some time to find those details, it's impossible not to fall in love.
My suggestion is to pick an awesome team like CJ, and not a shitty team like SKT, and follow them through a Proleague season. Watching 1 final, without knowing the players in advance, isn't quite the same.
On October 31 2011 15:53 RedJustice wrote: These people don't understand the agony of seeing your team make it to the playoffs year and after year, and knowing they have the potential to reach the Super Bowl, and seeing them lose over and over.
ahahahahahahaha where are the CJ fans at?
LOL makes this entire thread worth it
THOUGH they did win winners league in an epic series
On October 31 2011 16:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: There's this girl that you like. She's kinda cute but you don't know if you like her enough to "love" her or not. You spend some time and get to know her and before you know it you're in a 10 year relationship and have had some of the best times of your lives together.
Then some douchebag comes along and tells you she's ugly.
? I didn't say that. I said I came along, and you told me just how amazing she was, and how no other girl in the world is like her. And I talked to her a bit, and concluded that I don't feel the same way as you do about her, even though she's a really awesome person. I also concluded I probably also don't feel the same way because I don't have the same kind of experiences with her that you do that make you love her so much.
Do you do that in real life to people? If not why are you doing it here lol.
Not everyone likes the same things we don't need a poorly worded potentially antagonizing blog to get that point across.
I think the point of this blog is to get bw fans to stop talking about how its so much better than anything else; trying to point out that whatever elitism we hold is really a product of some irrational emotional response.
Well, there are a lot of concrete things you can say about why BW is better than other games:
It requires more practice and skill to play well. It is an old game that hasn't gotten old because there are still amazing things to be done with it.
But that doesn't make someone love a game, just appreciate it a ton.
I think there's a particular ferocity of BW love because many of the people who have followed it for years did so in a very serious way. It's easier to be a casual SC2 fan than a casual BW fan because there's so many opportunities to watch and interact. SC2 is the pretty girl who's automatically endearing if you're a nerd. BW is kind of old and blocky, and she doesn't come out unless it's the middle of the night, so the people who stay up to see her absolutely adore her and are extremely dedicated fans. The type of fans who build stuff like TLPD just because it's cool, not with any ESPORTS intentions in mind. That's where the hardcore feelings you're talking about are coming from.
Besides that, though, is the unbelievable depth that the game contains. That on its own, even without watching or playing it, deserves an immense amount of appreciation, and is why BW pros receive the utmost respect, even from professionals of other games. The more you watch and see the fine details, the more that respect will turn into love. So it is and it isn't within BW itself. Part of it is the culture that has developed around it, but that culture is also predicated upon the smallest details of the game, so much so that it is studied more than any other ESPORT to date. I think if you put in some time to find those details, it's impossible not to fall in love.
My suggestion is to pick an awesome team like CJ, and not a shitty team like SKT, and follow them through a Proleague season. Watching 1 final, without knowing the players in advance, isn't quite the same.
I disagree. Brood War is awesome because of the game itself, not anything else around it. If you got good at the game and learned a lot about it, you would see the beauty in the game. It's beautiful and brilliant, but you don't see that part unless you have a deep understanding of Brood War, which takes time to develop.
Well i am a late gen gamer. I had no idea about Bw and SNES games(that have been used here as examples) until late 2000s and guess what, they DO have the magic. It isnt because of nostalgia or long history that i like these games, its because theyre flat out incredible.
And also, look at the topics of old games here on TL: The BG2 topic for example. Tons of gamers discovering it, and sharing their experiences. And theyre all excited, because in the end thats what these games are, legends
Edit: reread whole thread. Why do you keep posting in this thread? It's not really a discussion. You think BW is nothing special even though all evidence says otherwise and try to define some weird unknown property that BW does not have. "Magical" what the fuck? What a stupid and pointless discussion.
On October 31 2011 15:53 RedJustice wrote: Is it fair to ask other people to love your game or see what's so wonderful about it? Not really. Without the experience, it's just not the same. Some people will love it. Many people will think-- that's nice. The history of it is awesome. It's not so special as you say. I still like my own games best.
We're not asking anyone to love BW. We just don't like how SC2 is slowly killing BW off. We also really really fucking hate those retards who are somehow still around on this site who seem to take pleasure in seeing BW slowly die.
In order for us to accept SC2, it needs to be at least as good a game as BW. It's really not. It's really not even close. Unfortunately, the newer generation of players seem to take our criticism of SC2 as personal insults and start throwing shit at us for wanting SC2 to be a better game than it is.
SC2 is not perfect, and we want it to be.
TL;DR: Respect each other, and I found BW fun to watch, but not particularly special.
That's really a dumb thing to say on a site that was founded on BW. Like it or not, BW is more than just, "family", or however you analogized it. It's like a religion for those of us who've been here for more than just a couple years.
EDIT: Since people seem to not be picking up on this... my point is that whatever makes a game more wonderful to you that every other game in the world is never inherent in the game. A game can be admirable for what it does well on paper, but "the magic" is the emotional connection people develop to a game when it becomes part of their lives over time. Any game can have "the magic", it just depends on an individual's experiences with it.
I can accept what your larger point, that our attachment to BW largely stems from having followed it for years, but I don't agree that games are void of any kind of special quality that makes them stand out from others.
The way you constructed your argument makes that a premise. Unfortunately, that's really not the case. Games do stand out from one another. There's a reason why BW has lasted for thirteen years and counting while countless other games have failed and died over time. It wasn't just because us fans arbitrarily chose to love one game over others. The game is that good, and it's that good even thirteen years later.
Not just any game can have, "the magic".
And if you truly believe BW isn't anything special, as you say, then you really didn't try very hard.
Redjustice, seeing your argument in general, it is a fallacy. It is a circular argument. "People love games because they fall in love with games" Yeah, sure, but whats the point? It still doesnt explain why people fall in love with games, its merely a truism.
I was never a strategy game player. I came in at sc2 a couple of months back therefore i will never appreciate bw in the way most of you will.
Instead of having grown up with it and had the emotional attachment, seeing how groundbreaking it was at the time, experiencing the ups and downs of following the pros in tournaments... in my head im stuck with the rather primitive thought "this looks less pretty and less intuitive then sc2". By having sc2 first instead of looking for all the positives in a new and exciting game im forced to compare it to what i have, not what you had.. i just can't fall in love the same way.
I may well be missing out on the greatest game ever made but unfortunately like the OP i can't feel the magic. Instead of being shown the first car ever made in all it's glory, im being shown it after having owned a modern day one. The original may have been amazing, groundbreaking, well made, thought out and designed... but its impossible to appreciate it properly with the newer version on my drive. Obviously an exaggerated metaphor but from many of my other friends gaming (who've come to sc2 w/o bw experience), the feeling is similar in that we only could've appreciated bw in the same way as many of you if we had also seen it before sc2
instead of focusing on which game is better then another, more popular, thriving/dying, etc i think sadly, although its not for any malicious reason, many of us will simply never share the same view.
I understand im a rather ignorant "caveman fps gamer" compared to pretty much every user here but hopefully nothing in this post is wildy offensive to bw players/followers im just trying to explain my perspective coming from an fps.
OP you are wrong. i am sorry. you have no idea why BW is so amazing. all you did is watch a few VODs and play a couple games and you think you can come here and tell us why we love BW so much? gimme a break.
i don't blame you though for not understanding it. it's impossible for someone to barely know BW and "get it."
I didn't have the 10 year experience you seem to be alluding to. In fact, I'd hazard a lot of TL "veterans" who are accused of Brood War elitism today joined about as late as I did.
I started watching in 2008 at the behest of a friend of mine (shoutouts to goatrope). He assured me that this game required a lot of skill. I personally thought RTSes were stupid and boring. But, nonetheless, he took me under his wing and started teaching me. Later, he showed me TL and exposed me to the thriving ESPORTS scene.
At this time, there was no nostalgia to be had and the history of the competitive scene meant nothing to me... In spite of that, I somehow managed to fall in love with the game. There was magic. But where did it come from?
Why did I, someone who thought RTS games were stupid and boring, suddenly think Brood War was absolutely amazing?
Because of the sheer complexity of the game.
It took a while for me to realize this. Heck, I didn't know that was the reason at first.
The thing is, and I recommend you explore this yourself:
The more I learned to play the game competitively the more I realized it was something special.
As I learned more, I became more and more aware of how much I didn't know. As someone with a competitive FPS background I was quickly able to appreciate this.
I soon realized that what set apart a D player to a D+ player to a C player on ICCUP was a staggering amount of perspective with respect to how the game worked.
I realized that the game has incredible and unrivaled depth. And therein lies your magic.
The strategic depth, the mechanical depth, the sheer depth of skill required is beyond anything I've seen in any other game ever. I have yet to be presented with another game that rivals this depth.
Where does this depth come from? Between what's probably a fluke in game design and the mass adoption by Koreans (which lead to a thorough exploration of its depth), I can't know for sure.
Do other games have this depth? Maybe. But I haven't seen it, and I don't think other games have had the luxury of being explored as deeply as Brood War had. SC2 certainly hasn't. This is probably why that when I watch SC2 played competitively, I pine for the incredibly more developed competitive depth of Brood War.
In any case, few games can make a claim to this kind of depth.
Most games are shallow. They're solve-able. This is why you'd never play something like... Halo Wars competitively.
Other games do have depth, but haven't been explored to the same extent.
Brood War is an ocean. We've ventured into its depths, but the true extent of it is seemingly unrivaled and not completely known.
If the game's competitive scene had topped out, had the game been "solved" or the skill plateaued at any point in its history, it would have died. It's had 10 years to let this happen and it keeps on growing.
The reason it continually evolves is this depth. And that is in the game. That's the magic. It's the reason the competitive scene remains fresh to this day. It's the reason it's so exciting to watch.
The more you learn about the game itself, the more this "BW elitism" will make sense to you.
This is why BW elitists seem to have this insufferable air about them. That off-putting disposition where they think they're privy to some information that you "noobies" aren't.
Take the time to learn the game. Find someone who is good at it and have them teach you. Then follow the scene.
Strategically, you'll be floored. Every movement, every decision, every timing will matter.
Mecanically, you'll be amazed. Every impossibly controlled, yet precisely and exactly executed engagement, will never cease to amaze you.
For example, with the right kind of perspective, TvTs, notorious for being 40-minute "snooze fests," can be incredibly entertaining to you. Just a few months back I can recall a game between Flash and Mind where the map split and Flash was behind. I thought the game was done for, but Flash somehow flies a force of six fully loaded dropships through a small opening in Mind's defenses and drops behind his lines. The graceful execution of this maneuver was not only a testament to Flash's incredible mechanical skill, but his "game sense." His perspective. His seemingly clairvoyant sense of where Mind's forces and attention would be. His understanding that this attack would tip the scales ever so slightly back into his favour. It was incredible.
Any yet, this match occurred in a regular Proleague exhibition match. Nothing was really at stake. No epic rivalry existed here.
I was floored... and no nostalgia was required.
Your argument hinges on some abstract notion that everyone who likes Brood War is in it for the history. While I have come to immerse myself in it, it wasn't until I had been around the scene long enough to develop favourite teams and players that I started to care about the history. It wasn't until I read TL regularly that I started to care about specific players themselves.
I was a Brood War fan long before I was a Bisu and SKT fan.
How can the magic of BW not be inherent in the game when the reason we watch and play BW is because it is Brood War. Every person on this site has spent thousands of hours playing hundreds of other video games. Every person on this site has watched professional gamers fighting it out in Halo, Dota, Street Fighter, and dozens of other competitive games. Yet we brush aside those other games and come back to BW over and over and over again. Do you think this was random? Or just a matter of which game we were exposed to first? It isn't. I knew about Daigo Umehara before I knew about Boxer. I knew about MLG before I knew about the OSL. Yet I've spent a grand total of about 5 hours combined watching Street Fighter and Halo in my life, compared to hundreds if not thousands on Brood War. I decided on my game of choice because I think BW's combination of physical mechanics, strategic genius, and mental endurance is unmatched by any other video game to have ever existed. If my love for BW isn't inherent in the game, then why do I have 4,000 posts on TL instead of shoryuken? Don't confuse yourself. A game's appeal may not be universal, and I can respect that even if I don't understand. However, for those of us who do find the game appealing, the appeal absolutely lies in the qualities and characteristics of the game itself.
On October 31 2011 17:49 HawaiianPig wrote: Here's my deal.
I didn't have the 10 year experience you seem to be alluding to. In fact, I'd hazard a lot of TL "veterans" who are accused of Brood War elitism today joined about as late as I did.
I started watching in 2008 at the behest of a friend of mine (shoutouts to goatrope). He assured me that this game required a lot of skill. I personally thought RTSes were stupid and boring. But, nonetheless, he took me under his wing and started teaching me. Later, he showed me TL and exposed me to the thriving ESPORTS scene.
At this time, there was no nostalgia to be had and the history of the competitive scene meant nothing to me... In spite of that, I somehow managed to fall in love with the game. There was magic. But where did it come from?
Why did I, someone who thought RTS games were stupid and boring, suddenly think Brood War was absolutely amazing?
Because of the sheer complexity of the game.
It took a while for me to realize this. Heck, I didn't know that was the reason at first.
The thing is, and I recommend you explore this yourself:
The more I learned to play the game competitively the more I realized it was something special.
As I learned more, I became more and more aware of how much I didn't know. As someone with a competitive FPS background I was quickly able to appreciate this.
I soon realized that what set apart a D player to a D+ player to a C player on ICCUP was a staggering amount of perspective with respect to how the game worked.
I realized that the game has incredible and unrivaled depth. And therein lies your magic.
The strategic depth, the mechanical depth, the sheer depth of skill required is beyond anything I've seen in any other game ever. I have yet to be presented with another game that rivals this depth.
Where does this depth come from? Between what's probably a fluke in game design and the mass adoption by Koreans (which lead to a thorough exploration of its depth), I can't know for sure.
Do other games have this depth? Maybe. But I haven't seen it, and I don't think other games have had the luxury of being explored as deeply as Brood War had. SC2 certainly hasn't. This is probably why that when I watch SC2 played competitively, I pine for the incredibly more developed competitive depth of Brood War. (I fully admit to not being as well versed in SC2 as I am in BW, and that undoubtedly plays a factor)
In any case, few games can make a claim to this kind of depth.
Most games are shallow. They're solve-able. This is why you'd never play something like... Halo Wars competitively.
Other games do have depth, but haven't been explored to the same extent.
Brood War is an ocean. We've ventured into its depths, but the true extent of it is seemingly unrivaled and not completely known.
If the game's competitive scene had topped out, had the game been "solved" or the skill plateaued at any point in its history, it would have died. It's had 10 years to let this happen and it keeps on growing.
The reason it continually evolves is this depth. And that is in the game. That's the magic. It's the reason the competitive scene remains fresh to this day. It's the reason it's so exciting to watch.
The more you learn about the game itself, the more this "BW elitism" will make sense to you.
This is why BW elitists seem to have this insufferable air about them. That off-putting disposition where they think they're privy to some information that you "noobies" aren't.
Take the time to learn the game. Find someone who is good at it and have them teach you. Then follow the scene.
Strategically, you'll be floored. Every movement, every decision, every timing will matter.
Mecanically, you'll be amazed. Every impossibly controlled, yet precisely and exactly executed engagement, will never cease to amaze you.
For example, with the right kind of perspective, TvTs, notorious for being 40-minute "snooze fests," can be incredibly entertaining to you. Just a few months back I can recall a game between Flash and Mind where the map split and Flash was behind. I thought the game was done for, but Flash somehow flies a force of six fully loaded dropships through a small opening in Mind's defenses and drops behind his lines. The graceful execution of this maneuver was not only a testament to Flash's incredible mechanical skill, but his "game sense." His perspective. His seemingly clairvoyant sense of where Mind's forces and attention would be. His understanding that this attack would tip the scales ever so slightly back into his favour. It was incredible.
Any yet, this match occurred in a regular Proleague exhibition match. Nothing was really at stake. No epic rivalry existed here.
I was floored... and no nostalgia was required.
Your argument hinges on some abstract notion that everyone who likes Brood War is in it for the history. While I have come to immerse myself in it, it wasn't until I had been around the scene long enough to develop favourite teams and players that I started to care about the history. It wasn't until I read TL regularly that I started to care about specific players themselves.
I was a Brood War fan long before I was a Bisu and SKT fan.
i remember that TvT game. that was just simply amazing. that dropship attack, wondering what the hell flash was doing losing the game and then what looked like a suicide attack when in reality... going straight for the research buildings: the armories and physics lab. bam knocked them out, provided flash enough time and the edge for his battlecruisers to wreck mind's despite the fact that mind had superior economy the entire game
On October 31 2011 17:42 shaun3h wrote: I was never a strategy game player. I came in at sc2 a couple of months back therefore i will never appreciate bw in the way most of you will.
Instead of having grown up with it and had the emotional attachment, seeing how groundbreaking it was at the time, experiencing the ups and downs of following the pros in tournaments... in my head im stuck with the rather primitive thought "this looks less pretty and less intuitive then sc2". By having sc2 first instead of looking for all the positives in a new and exciting game im forced to compare it to what i have, not what you had.. i just can't fall in love the same way.
I may well be missing out on the greatest game ever made but unfortunately like the OP i can't feel the magic. Instead of being shown the first car ever made in all it's glory, im being shown it after having owned a modern day one. The original may have been amazing, groundbreaking, well made, thought out and designed... but its impossible to appreciate it properly with the newer version on my drive. Obviously an exaggerated metaphor but from many of my other friends gaming (who've come to sc2 w/o bw experience), the feeling is similar in that we only could've appreciated bw in the same way as many of you if we had also seen it before sc2
instead of focusing on which game is better then another, more popular, thriving/dying, etc i think sadly, although its not for any malicious reason, many of us will simply never share the same view.
I understand im a rather ignorant "caveman fps gamer" compared to pretty much every user here but hopefully nothing in this post is wildy offensive to bw players/followers im just trying to explain my perspective coming from an fps.
It's strange that you and the OP both have this same misconception...
I guess I can't speak for everyone, so I'll write the rest of this in the first person.
To be honest, I really don't care whether you like BW or not. That's not where the whole SC2 vs BW conflict located.
Think of it this way:
For me, pro BW has been something I've followed closely for close to five, six years now. I'm not even a real old timer. Since my Korean friends got me into it during my freshmen year of college, I've quite literally thought about this game every day. This is on top of having played for hundreds of hours when I was younger when it first came out. I lived and breathed this game without ever even having played an online match.
Then suddenly SC2 is announced, and we're all very excited for it. The community blows up, and traffic to this site triples and continues to grow as time passes. Then the game is released into beta, and suddenly we're very worried...the game is really not that good...in fact, you could say it's mediocre. The beta closes, and we just sit on our hands and wait for the game to come out. It's released, and is still mediocre.
The issue we have with SC2 is that it's really not the great game it needs to be. There are a number of fundamental issues with it that will prevent it from having the longevity and depth that BW has enjoyed, and the recent Browder interview by Kennigit has shown us that they really have no intention of fixing those fundamental problems to make the game better.
Let me clarify, though, that SC2 is a mediocre game in comparison to BW. When you compare SC2 to every other game in the genre, it's amazing.
Now here's the real problem...SC2 is slowly killing off BW. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional. SC2 is going to take the place of BW eventually. The foreign BW scene is even more dead than it was before. The Korean BW scene is being backed into a corner. This is a game that's been a huge part of our lives for years and is under threat of disappearing.
Personally, I've come to accept that BW is eventually going to die. It's something I think about quite literally every day, but I know that it's going to happen. SC2 is the next best thing, and is its direct successor. And so I want SC2 to be good. I want it to be as good as BW is. I want it to last forever, and I want to love the pro scene as much as I love the BW pro scene.
I don't expect you to feel the same way I do about BW. I do, however, expect you to respect the way I feel about the game, and I expect you to more or less understand why I resent SC2, even if you don't like it, and I expect you to also understand that this site was built on BW. Honest to god, all we want is for SC2 to be able to take BW's place, but it's not there and isn't even moving in that direction.
On October 31 2011 17:49 HawaiianPig wrote: Here's my deal.
I didn't have the 10 year experience you seem to be alluding to. In fact, I'd hazard a lot of TL "veterans" who are accused of Brood War elitism today joined about as late as I did.
I started watching in 2008 at the behest of a friend of mine (shoutouts to goatrope). He assured me that this game required a lot of skill. I personally thought RTSes were stupid and boring. But, nonetheless, he took me under his wing and started teaching me. Later, he showed me TL and exposed me to the thriving ESPORTS scene.
At this time, there was no nostalgia to be had and the history of the competitive scene meant nothing to me... In spite of that, I somehow managed to fall in love with the game. There was magic. But where did it come from?
Why did I, someone who thought RTS games were stupid and boring, suddenly think Brood War was absolutely amazing?
Because of the sheer complexity of the game.
It took a while for me to realize this. Heck, I didn't know that was the reason at first.
The thing is, and I recommend you explore this yourself:
The more I learned to play the game competitively the more I realized it was something special.
As I learned more, I became more and more aware of how much I didn't know. As someone with a competitive FPS background I was quickly able to appreciate this.
I soon realized that what set apart a D player to a D+ player to a C player on ICCUP was a staggering amount of perspective with respect to how the game worked.
I realized that the game has incredible and unrivaled depth. And therein lies your magic.
The strategic depth, the mechanical depth, the sheer depth of skill required is beyond anything I've seen in any other game ever. I have yet to be presented with another game that rivals this depth.
Where does this depth come from? Between what's probably a fluke in game design and the mass adoption by Koreans (which lead to a thorough exploration of its depth), I can't know for sure.
Do other games have this depth? Maybe. But I haven't seen it, and I don't think other games have had the luxury of being explored as deeply as Brood War had. SC2 certainly hasn't. This is probably why that when I watch SC2 played competitively, I pine for the incredibly more developed competitive depth of Brood War. (I fully admit to not being as well versed in SC2 as I am in BW, and that undoubtedly plays a factor)
In any case, few games can make a claim to this kind of depth.
Most games are shallow. They're solve-able. This is why you'd never play something like... Halo Wars competitively.
Other games do have depth, but haven't been explored to the same extent.
Brood War is an ocean. We've ventured into its depths, but the true extent of it is seemingly unrivaled and not completely known.
If the game's competitive scene had topped out, had the game been "solved" or the skill plateaued at any point in its history, it would have died. It's had 10 years to let this happen and it keeps on growing.
The reason it continually evolves is this depth. And that is in the game. That's the magic. It's the reason the competitive scene remains fresh to this day. It's the reason it's so exciting to watch.
The more you learn about the game itself, the more this "BW elitism" will make sense to you.
This is why BW elitists seem to have this insufferable air about them. That off-putting disposition where they think they're privy to some information that you "noobies" aren't.
Take the time to learn the game. Find someone who is good at it and have them teach you. Then follow the scene.
Strategically, you'll be floored. Every movement, every decision, every timing will matter.
Mecanically, you'll be amazed. Every impossibly controlled, yet precisely and exactly executed engagement, will never cease to amaze you.
For example, with the right kind of perspective, TvTs, notorious for being 40-minute "snooze fests," can be incredibly entertaining to you. Just a few months back I can recall a game between Flash and Mind where the map split and Flash was behind. I thought the game was done for, but Flash somehow flies a force of six fully loaded dropships through a small opening in Mind's defenses and drops behind his lines. The graceful execution of this maneuver was not only a testament to Flash's incredible mechanical skill, but his "game sense." His perspective. His seemingly clairvoyant sense of where Mind's forces and attention would be. His understanding that this attack would tip the scales ever so slightly back into his favour. It was incredible.
Any yet, this match occurred in a regular Proleague exhibition match. Nothing was really at stake. No epic rivalry existed here.
I was floored... and no nostalgia was required.
Your argument hinges on some abstract notion that everyone who likes Brood War is in it for the history. While I have come to immerse myself in it, it wasn't until I had been around the scene long enough to develop favourite teams and players that I started to care about the history. It wasn't until I read TL regularly that I started to care about specific players themselves.
I was a Brood War fan long before I was a Bisu and SKT fan.
i remember that TvT game. that was just simply amazing. that dropship attack, wondering what the hell flash was doing losing the game and then what looked like a suicide attack when in reality... going straight for the research buildings: the armories and physics lab. bam knocked them out, provided flash enough time and the edge for his battlecruisers to wreck mind's despite the fact that mind had superior economy the entire game
Exactly, the drop wasn't some heavy handed killing blow, it was a surgical strike that took out tech that gave him the extra few seconds on his own tech to put him ahead in the Battlecruiser count later in the game. The snowball effect this had on turning around a game he was losing was utterly amazing.
And the fact that you too remember this largely insignificant Proleague match with nothing at stake stands as an example of the game being incredible on its own without needing the storied history to be exciting and interesting.
It's ridiculous to try to say all BW fans like it for the same reasons. If the game is all about nostalgia then why don't I cling to so many other games the same way I do with BW? And what are you actually trying to accomplish with this thread?
I have to agree with the OP. I played SC1 and later BW in our small 4-8 player LANS when it came out and still a year later, so i still carry some nostalgia about winning 4 player FFAs, crushing my brother on Lost Temple, etc... but it's the past.
Sure, it requires a ton of skill to play, but so do for example Dune 2 or Warcraft 1/2 (which might even require more skill than BW). The reason why we see a professional BW scene is because it was there at the right time with a lot of luck and the players and community made the game to what it is now, not the game itself. A lot of games might have done it, but they either lacked features ((online) multiplayer, observers, ...), were released at the wrong time or just didn't get lucky (for example Supreme Commander was close to breaking the line).
I still love BW for the memories of childhood times, but it's not capturing me like 12 years ago. I don't get excited when i watch it and i don't have fun playing it (mostly because of unit pathing. I hate dragoons and ultralisks -.- Don't know how i could have enjoyed that 12 years ago).
In the end, players and fans are more important than the game itself. There doesn't have to be a logical reason why you like something (or noone would watch American Football or Soccer).
On October 31 2011 17:49 HawaiianPig wrote: Here's my deal.
I didn't have the 10 year experience you seem to be alluding to. In fact, I'd hazard a lot of TL "veterans" who are accused of Brood War elitism today joined about as late as I did.
I started watching in 2008 at the behest of a friend of mine (shoutouts to goatrope). He assured me that this game required a lot of skill. I personally thought RTSes were stupid and boring. But, nonetheless, he took me under his wing and started teaching me. Later, he showed me TL and exposed me to the thriving ESPORTS scene.
At this time, there was no nostalgia to be had and the history of the competitive scene meant nothing to me... In spite of that, I somehow managed to fall in love with the game. There was magic. But where did it come from?
Why did I, someone who thought RTS games were stupid and boring, suddenly think Brood War was absolutely amazing?
Because of the sheer complexity of the game.
It took a while for me to realize this. Heck, I didn't know that was the reason at first.
The thing is, and I recommend you explore this yourself:
The more I learned to play the game competitively the more I realized it was something special.
As I learned more, I became more and more aware of how much I didn't know. As someone with a competitive FPS background I was quickly able to appreciate this.
I soon realized that what set apart a D player to a D+ player to a C player on ICCUP was a staggering amount of perspective with respect to how the game worked.
I realized that the game has incredible and unrivaled depth. And therein lies your magic.
The strategic depth, the mechanical depth, the sheer depth of skill required is beyond anything I've seen in any other game ever. I have yet to be presented with another game that rivals this depth.
Where does this depth come from? Between what's probably a fluke in game design and the mass adoption by Koreans (which lead to a thorough exploration of its depth), I can't know for sure.
Do other games have this depth? Maybe. But I haven't seen it, and I don't think other games have had the luxury of being explored as deeply as Brood War had. SC2 certainly hasn't. This is probably why that when I watch SC2 played competitively, I pine for the incredibly more developed competitive depth of Brood War. (I fully admit to not being as well versed in SC2 as I am in BW, and that undoubtedly plays a factor)
In any case, few games can make a claim to this kind of depth.
Most games are shallow. They're solve-able. This is why you'd never play something like... Halo Wars competitively.
Other games do have depth, but haven't been explored to the same extent.
Brood War is an ocean. We've ventured into its depths, but the true extent of it is seemingly unrivaled and not completely known.
If the game's competitive scene had topped out, had the game been "solved" or the skill plateaued at any point in its history, it would have died. It's had 10 years to let this happen and it keeps on growing.
The reason it continually evolves is this depth. And that is in the game. That's the magic. It's the reason the competitive scene remains fresh to this day. It's the reason it's so exciting to watch.
The more you learn about the game itself, the more this "BW elitism" will make sense to you.
This is why BW elitists seem to have this insufferable air about them. That off-putting disposition where they think they're privy to some information that you "noobies" aren't.
Take the time to learn the game. Find someone who is good at it and have them teach you. Then follow the scene.
Strategically, you'll be floored. Every movement, every decision, every timing will matter.
Mecanically, you'll be amazed. Every impossibly controlled, yet precisely and exactly executed engagement, will never cease to amaze you.
For example, with the right kind of perspective, TvTs, notorious for being 40-minute "snooze fests," can be incredibly entertaining to you. Just a few months back I can recall a game between Flash and Mind where the map split and Flash was behind. I thought the game was done for, but Flash somehow flies a force of six fully loaded dropships through a small opening in Mind's defenses and drops behind his lines. The graceful execution of this maneuver was not only a testament to Flash's incredible mechanical skill, but his "game sense." His perspective. His seemingly clairvoyant sense of where Mind's forces and attention would be. His understanding that this attack would tip the scales ever so slightly back into his favour. It was incredible.
Any yet, this match occurred in a regular Proleague exhibition match. Nothing was really at stake. No epic rivalry existed here.
I was floored... and no nostalgia was required.
Your argument hinges on some abstract notion that everyone who likes Brood War is in it for the history. While I have come to immerse myself in it, it wasn't until I had been around the scene long enough to develop favourite teams and players that I started to care about the history. It wasn't until I read TL regularly that I started to care about specific players themselves.
I was a Brood War fan long before I was a Bisu and SKT fan.
i remember that TvT game. that was just simply amazing. that dropship attack, wondering what the hell flash was doing losing the game and then what looked like a suicide attack when in reality... going straight for the research buildings: the armories and physics lab. bam knocked them out, provided flash enough time and the edge for his battlecruisers to wreck mind's despite the fact that mind had superior economy the entire game
Exactly, the drop wasn't some heavy handed killing blow, it was a surgical strike that took out tech that gave him the extra few seconds on his own tech to put him ahead in the Battlecruiser count later in the game. The snowball effect this had on turning around a game he was losing was utterly amazing.
And the fact that you too remember this largely insignificant Proleague match with nothing at stake stands as an example of the game being incredible on its own without needing the storied history to be exciting and interesting.
I like what the interviewer called it afterwards. The "divine move," something played by the hand of God to restore balance and capable of winning a lost game. Moreover, this was in Winners League with KT down 0-3 against FOX, and this game against Mind was the first stepping stone to Flash's reverse all kill. That's a divine move alright, turning a lost game into a won series. Well, no wonder it was somewhat memorable.
On October 31 2011 17:49 HawaiianPig wrote: Here's my deal.
I didn't have the 10 year experience you seem to be alluding to. In fact, I'd hazard a lot of TL "veterans" who are accused of Brood War elitism today joined about as late as I did.
I started watching in 2008 at the behest of a friend of mine (shoutouts to goatrope). He assured me that this game required a lot of skill. I personally thought RTSes were stupid and boring. But, nonetheless, he took me under his wing and started teaching me. Later, he showed me TL and exposed me to the thriving ESPORTS scene.
At this time, there was no nostalgia to be had and the history of the competitive scene meant nothing to me... In spite of that, I somehow managed to fall in love with the game. There was magic. But where did it come from?
Why did I, someone who thought RTS games were stupid and boring, suddenly think Brood War was absolutely amazing?
Because of the sheer complexity of the game.
It took a while for me to realize this. Heck, I didn't know that was the reason at first.
The thing is, and I recommend you explore this yourself:
The more I learned to play the game competitively the more I realized it was something special.
As I learned more, I became more and more aware of how much I didn't know. As someone with a competitive FPS background I was quickly able to appreciate this.
I soon realized that what set apart a D player to a D+ player to a C player on ICCUP was a staggering amount of perspective with respect to how the game worked.
I realized that the game has incredible and unrivaled depth. And therein lies your magic.
The strategic depth, the mechanical depth, the sheer depth of skill required is beyond anything I've seen in any other game ever. I have yet to be presented with another game that rivals this depth.
Where does this depth come from? Between what's probably a fluke in game design and the mass adoption by Koreans (which lead to a thorough exploration of its depth), I can't know for sure.
Do other games have this depth? Maybe. But I haven't seen it, and I don't think other games have had the luxury of being explored as deeply as Brood War had. SC2 certainly hasn't. This is probably why that when I watch SC2 played competitively, I pine for the incredibly more developed competitive depth of Brood War. (I fully admit to not being as well versed in SC2 as I am in BW, and that undoubtedly plays a factor)
In any case, few games can make a claim to this kind of depth.
Most games are shallow. They're solve-able. This is why you'd never play something like... Halo Wars competitively.
Other games do have depth, but haven't been explored to the same extent.
Brood War is an ocean. We've ventured into its depths, but the true extent of it is seemingly unrivaled and not completely known.
If the game's competitive scene had topped out, had the game been "solved" or the skill plateaued at any point in its history, it would have died. It's had 10 years to let this happen and it keeps on growing.
The reason it continually evolves is this depth. And that is in the game. That's the magic. It's the reason the competitive scene remains fresh to this day. It's the reason it's so exciting to watch.
The more you learn about the game itself, the more this "BW elitism" will make sense to you.
This is why BW elitists seem to have this insufferable air about them. That off-putting disposition where they think they're privy to some information that you "noobies" aren't.
Take the time to learn the game. Find someone who is good at it and have them teach you. Then follow the scene.
Strategically, you'll be floored. Every movement, every decision, every timing will matter.
Mecanically, you'll be amazed. Every impossibly controlled, yet precisely and exactly executed engagement, will never cease to amaze you.
For example, with the right kind of perspective, TvTs, notorious for being 40-minute "snooze fests," can be incredibly entertaining to you. Just a few months back I can recall a game between Flash and Mind where the map split and Flash was behind. I thought the game was done for, but Flash somehow flies a force of six fully loaded dropships through a small opening in Mind's defenses and drops behind his lines. The graceful execution of this maneuver was not only a testament to Flash's incredible mechanical skill, but his "game sense." His perspective. His seemingly clairvoyant sense of where Mind's forces and attention would be. His understanding that this attack would tip the scales ever so slightly back into his favour. It was incredible.
Any yet, this match occurred in a regular Proleague exhibition match. Nothing was really at stake. No epic rivalry existed here.
I was floored... and no nostalgia was required.
Your argument hinges on some abstract notion that everyone who likes Brood War is in it for the history. While I have come to immerse myself in it, it wasn't until I had been around the scene long enough to develop favourite teams and players that I started to care about the history. It wasn't until I read TL regularly that I started to care about specific players themselves.
I was a Brood War fan long before I was a Bisu and SKT fan.
i remember that TvT game. that was just simply amazing. that dropship attack, wondering what the hell flash was doing losing the game and then what looked like a suicide attack when in reality... going straight for the research buildings: the armories and physics lab. bam knocked them out, provided flash enough time and the edge for his battlecruisers to wreck mind's despite the fact that mind had superior economy the entire game
Exactly, the drop wasn't some heavy handed killing blow, it was a surgical strike that took out tech that gave him the extra few seconds on his own tech to put him ahead in the Battlecruiser count later in the game. The snowball effect this had on turning around a game he was losing was utterly amazing.
And the fact that you too remember this largely insignificant Proleague match with nothing at stake stands as an example of the game being incredible on its own without needing the storied history to be exciting and interesting.
Man i remember that game as well. When i was watching it i was thinking what the fuck how the hell did Flash come back from this game and how he even pulled that drop off. The fact that i even remembered some random TvT from (this year?) just shows how good BW is and will be even into the uncertain future.
The only reason i got into BW was because of SC2 announcement and my recent acquisition of decent internet speed which was early 2010. I played SC and BW back in the day but only the campaign and with cheats (of course). I had a bit of fun but i never really got into it, i thoroughly enjoyed the story back then and even now compared to SC2 where the story just got really tacky and contrived. Raynor didn't want to save Kerrigan in BW, he wanted to fucking kill the bitch. Yet in SC2 he suddenly wants to be a knight in shining armour and save her. Rrrriiiggghhhhtttttt.
Digression aside, i was only exposed to BW through HD and Husky back in the day when they were cool. I was thinking "rofl professional broodwar players what a joke" but for some reason i kept watching and watching. Eventually after lurking on TL for a few months i joined and eventually kept up to date with all the latest games and news coming from BW. To this day i haven't even TOUCHED broodwar's multiplayer and i haven't even played a BGH, 1v1 or 2v2. I simply don't have the time or patience. Yet i am still drawn by the game and the awe i get from watching them play is enough for me.
My knowledge of the game is quite limited but that certainly doesn't stop me from watching and enjoying good games. Improving my knowledge of the game will only make me appreciate it more and i love the analyses that TL's BR writers provide as it allows me to fill in the gaps of what happened in the game. BW certainly has the magic to draw in a person like me, mostly a casual gamer, with no real knowledge of the intricacies of the game to keep watching the best RTS ever made.
While it sure might be biased to say BW is / has something magic, how can you say it's NOT there? That magic in BW can be seen everytime you saw something that was seemingly impossible before. Especially because the game was so old and long studied. Think of Bisu 3-0'ing Savior in his 85% winrate matchup... Think of Boxer in his early days with marine micro that made EVERYONE go like "wait, what did just happen?" and that's only very very few examples. Sure, you might now go like "but marine micro and splitting is there in SC2 as well, MVP even does it better than Boxer back then!!!" but if not for Boxer doing that in BW before anyone thought of doing that, MVP probably would not even dare to micro his marines. Other than that I completely agree with what you say, how much we LIKE/LOVE games is definitely about what WE personally do experience in them - which also greatly explains why you don't feel as much for BW as those who really played it actively. Because, say what you want, but what is left of BW and it's scene today is not really as enjoyable anymore as the game was - lets say 4-5 years ago when it was still in its full swing.
I can see where you're coming from, but I think the logic doesn't work in this case, based on my own experience with BW, which definately doesn't fit the norm.
I'm one of the very few non-Korean fans who got into BW quite recently. In spring 2010 I read a random blog about BW in a newspaper, and this sparked my interest in the game. I started watching games but in a matter of weeks or months/I can't remember, this site introduced me to the SC2 beta. Back then I tried to watch some SC2 games, but I couldn't get into it. I have tried to get into SC2 a few times since then, but the game just doesn't inspire me. I also have a history of playing WC3 and RA2 casually for years, and I loved both games, but mostly as something I would do on my spare time. BW is something way different. I have tried to get back to WC3 and RA2 recently, mainly because laddering BW was so frustrating because of how good all players are, but I got bored really fast, because of the huge standards that BW had set. BW is definately a special game and I can say that objectively it's the best RTS game I've ever been introduced to, and I've played a lot of RTS games.
Lets go to a site that started out for Broodwar and slap all the fans/long time members in the face by saying "sorry guys Broodwar doesnt have any magic and actually isnt that good"
On October 31 2011 17:42 shaun3h wrote: I was never a strategy game player. I came in at sc2 a couple of months back therefore i will never appreciate bw in the way most of you will.
Instead of having grown up with it and had the emotional attachment, seeing how groundbreaking it was at the time, experiencing the ups and downs of following the pros in tournaments... in my head im stuck with the rather primitive thought "this looks less pretty and less intuitive then sc2". By having sc2 first instead of looking for all the positives in a new and exciting game im forced to compare it to what i have, not what you had.. i just can't fall in love the same way.
I may well be missing out on the greatest game ever made but unfortunately like the OP i can't feel the magic. Instead of being shown the first car ever made in all it's glory, im being shown it after having owned a modern day one. The original may have been amazing, groundbreaking, well made, thought out and designed... but its impossible to appreciate it properly with the newer version on my drive. Obviously an exaggerated metaphor but from many of my other friends gaming (who've come to sc2 w/o bw experience), the feeling is similar in that we only could've appreciated bw in the same way as many of you if we had also seen it before sc2
instead of focusing on which game is better then another, more popular, thriving/dying, etc i think sadly, although its not for any malicious reason, many of us will simply never share the same view.
I understand im a rather ignorant "caveman fps gamer" compared to pretty much every user here but hopefully nothing in this post is wildy offensive to bw players/followers im just trying to explain my perspective coming from an fps.
The car comparison is flawed. Objects that are used for functional purposes can be replaced by newer models. Why? The newer ones function better, and function is why we use them. Simple as that. But this does not, and cannot apply to the realm of entertainment. Newer music does not supersede older music; Justin Bieber is younger and fresher looking than some old hairy rock star. Like that means jack shit. Newer movies are not better than classic movies because they're shinier and have better special effects. Twilight is not better because it's newer and its cover is prettier than my beatup copy of the Phantom Tollbooth. Pokemon White's release does not in any way diminish Pokemon Silver and all its splendor, despite it having better graphics and an insane 3D world (what is that shit anyway).
Honestly, what you're saying just sounds like an excuse. Of course there is personal preference, but that comes after you've actually tried both things. What this sounds like to me is that you simply dismissed BW on the grounds that it looks old and less shiny, and then tried to tell us that you're virtually incapable of liking older things, so you shouldn't even have to bother. And um, "what you have"? I have SC2. I played SC2 before I ever played BW. I just happened to keep an open mind: maybe it's not about pretty graphics and there's a reason why so many people still play this game 12 years later. I don't see how release order should affect anything.
On October 31 2011 18:44 arb wrote: What the fuck? Are you a heathen?
Lets go to a site that started out for Broodwar and slap all the fans/long time members in the face by saying "sorry guys Broodwar doesnt have any magic and actually isnt that good"
This guy pretty much has a point too. While it could be said more nicely, but this is pretty much it.
Edit: At the car comparison above - let's make this comparison more simple. Think of a race car. You've got to shift yourself, you got to control the car yourself. That's the classical way of doing it. Right? You do everything yourself except providing the HP etc. That would be BW for you.
Compare it to a newer kind of race car. You don't have to shift anymore, you don't have to break anymore. All you got to do is steer and accelerate. That's pretty much SC2 in comparison.
Whyand how am I saying this? Well, that's the so called "mechanics" for you. Broodwar has no MBS, no auto-mining or auto-cast. That's the race car comparison for you.
Sure, it might be possible that in the newer kind of race car you will be able to drive faster laps and you'll do less mistakes and there might even be less crashes happening. So for the most logically thinking individuals, the second car should be the "better one".
No need to tell you the real race car is still a lot more exciting to those, who actually experienced the reign of the "real" ones, right?
On October 31 2011 17:42 shaun3h wrote: I was never a strategy game player. I came in at sc2 a couple of months back therefore i will never appreciate bw in the way most of you will.
Instead of having grown up with it and had the emotional attachment, seeing how groundbreaking it was at the time, experiencing the ups and downs of following the pros in tournaments... in my head im stuck with the rather primitive thought "this looks less pretty and less intuitive then sc2". By having sc2 first instead of looking for all the positives in a new and exciting game im forced to compare it to what i have, not what you had.. i just can't fall in love the same way.
I may well be missing out on the greatest game ever made but unfortunately like the OP i can't feel the magic. Instead of being shown the first car ever made in all it's glory, im being shown it after having owned a modern day one. The original may have been amazing, groundbreaking, well made, thought out and designed... but its impossible to appreciate it properly with the newer version on my drive. Obviously an exaggerated metaphor but from many of my other friends gaming (who've come to sc2 w/o bw experience), the feeling is similar in that we only could've appreciated bw in the same way as many of you if we had also seen it before sc2
instead of focusing on which game is better then another, more popular, thriving/dying, etc i think sadly, although its not for any malicious reason, many of us will simply never share the same view.
I understand im a rather ignorant "caveman fps gamer" compared to pretty much every user here but hopefully nothing in this post is wildy offensive to bw players/followers im just trying to explain my perspective coming from an fps.
It's strange that you and the OP both have this same misconception...
I guess I can't speak for everyone, so I'll write the rest of this in the first person.
To be honest, I really don't care whether you like BW or not. That's not where the whole SC2 vs BW conflict located.
Think of it this way:
For me, pro BW has been something I've followed closely for close to five, six years now. I'm not even a real old timer. Since my Korean friends got me into it during my freshmen year of college, I've quite literally thought about this game every day. This is on top of having played for hundreds of hours when I was younger when it first came out. I lived and breathed this game without ever even having played an online match.
Then suddenly SC2 is announced, and we're all very excited for it. The community blows up, and traffic to this site triples and continues to grow as time passes. Then the game is released into beta, and suddenly we're very worried...the game is really not that good...in fact, you could say it's mediocre. The beta closes, and we just sit on our hands and wait for the game to come out. It's released, and is still mediocre.
The issue we have with SC2 is that it's really not the great game it needs to be. There are a number of fundamental issues with it that will prevent it from having the longevity and depth that BW has enjoyed, and the recent Browder interview by Kennigit has shown us that they really have no intention of fixing those fundamental problems to make the game better.
Let me clarify, though, that SC2 is a mediocre game in comparison to BW. When you compare SC2 to every other game in the genre, it's amazing.
Now here's the real problem...SC2 is slowly killing off BW. Anyone who says otherwise is delusional. SC2 is going to take the place of BW eventually. The foreign BW scene is even more dead than it was before. The Korean BW scene is being backed into a corner. This is a game that's been a huge part of our lives for years and is under threat of disappearing.
Personally, I've come to accept that BW is eventually going to die. It's something I think about quite literally every day, but I know that it's going to happen. SC2 is the next best thing, and is its direct successor. And so I want SC2 to be good. I want it to be as good as BW is. I want it to last forever, and I want to love the pro scene as much as I love the BW pro scene.
I don't expect you to feel the same way I do about BW. I do, however, expect you to respect the way I feel about the game, and I expect you to more or less understand why I resent SC2, even if you don't like it, and I expect you to also understand that this site was built on BW. Honest to god, all we want is for SC2 to be able to take BW's place, but it's not there and isn't even moving in that direction.
I dont think we understand each other at all, i dont deny bw might be a better game, i was just trying to explain why i personally couldn't quite appreciate bw in the same light. As a direct result of that I couldn't understand why a sequel in a series replacing a previous game was such a bad thing.
Sc2 may be easier, less deep, have irrelevant benefits over bw like graphics and have fundamental problems in your eyes but at the same time i wish you and other bw players would see the positive side of some of the aspects.. how many people like me who never could've imagined playing strategy having gone into fps titles at the original cod/cs have been brought in? how many more people are playing sc2 because it looks good and is easier to get into? could you honestly say in the long term would bw have grown to be the biggest esports title like sc2 is? Had sc2 not existed do you think bw is accessible enough with the learning curve/most of the decent casts in korean/the main competition only in korea/etc to have grown instead?
like every exchange though i find the starting tone is part of the problem: you dont care whether i like bw or not but i should understand the game i do play is fundamentally bad or "mediocre" and yours is great. I should be sympathetic and allow you to trash talk sc2 without defending my game of choice or knocking yours because sc2 is killing bw..
Can you not see how that ^ kinda seems to provoke a negative response? you demand i see your point of view while dismissing mine as a mistake i must have made..
Obviously people are simply too emotional to have a reasonable discussion over the issue. I won't attack your game or troll you over it but i think some people do because of that kind of attitude . I wish your game all the best - i'd like to think it won't die given all i've heard about it but that remains to be seen.. and i obviously share the hope sc2 improves. At least there's some common ground.
On October 31 2011 18:43 iNfeRnaL wrote: While it sure might be biased to say BW is / has something magic, how can you say it's NOT there? That magic in BW can be seen everytime you saw something that was seemingly impossible before. Especially because the game was so old and long studied. Think of Bisu 3-0'ing Savior in his 85% winrate matchup... Think of Boxer in his early days with marine micro that made EVERYONE go like "wait, what did just happen?" and that's only very very few examples. Sure, you might now go like "but marine micro and splitting is there in SC2 as well, MVP even does it better than Boxer back then!!!" but if not for Boxer doing that in BW before anyone thought of doing that, MVP probably would not even dare to micro his marinesexist. Other than that I completely agree with what you say, how much we LIKE/LOVE games is definitely about what WE personally do experience in them - which also greatly explains why you don't feel as much for BW as those who really played it actively. Because, say what you want, but what is left of BW and it's scene today is not really as enjoyable anymore as the game was - lets say 4-5 years ago when it was still in its full swing.
Your post was very good, it just needed a little fix
Without BoxeR, eSports as we know them today would probably not exist. He made so many efforts and sacrifices to make the eSports dream come true. Reading BoxeR's biography was one of the most magical BW moments. It's truly inspiring and motivating. The mere fact he succeeded in creating a progaming team at the Korean Air Force was amazing. And all this was driven by the love for a magical game. Why no one has done something similar for other games ?
edit : lol at the new racing car comparison. Very accurate.
On October 31 2011 16:11 RedJustice wrote: I think if you bothered to read the post you would find it is actually quite sympathetic to BW and the people who love it. -.-
EDIT: @shindigs: That is exactly the whole point of everything I said. BW shaped your life, so it's magical and sparklez with everything wonderful and good about the world. If BW didn't shape my life, how can I experience that same magic? I can respect the game for what it's done, but it just can't have the same impact on me.
Yes you are correct that our own personal emotional/time investments into the game, the overall popularity, and the fervent clamor of the scene does make it more special and magical in our hearts.
That being true does not mean it's the only reason why SC is so awesome to us. Infact, it's at the very bottom of the list.
You have to remember, before all of us became obsessed with SC, we were just your average nerd gamers playing all sorts of games like quake, age of empires, diablo, etc. There was no sparkly magical world of pro-gaming, there was no Team Liquid, there was no emotional investment. But we just kept playing and playing and playing. Why? The game is fucking good on all levels. And you could attempt to counter argue saying that Counterstrike or Warcraft3 hardcore players could be saying the exact same thing.
But actually you can't. Why? With a few exceptions, almost every single person that I know that has played SC1 hardcore is an incredible person in one way or another. SC players are just a step above in intelligence from players of other games. SC players have lives and street smarts too. Hell, no one would even guess that most of us are gamer nerds at first glance. The demographic of people in the SC scene are many notches above the demographics of other games by a longshot in life(this is especially true for anyone that has played SC:BW on a high level). This isn't due to random variance, it's because the game is that "magical" to have captured the hearts of so many intelligent people. I can't count the amounts of retarded people I've met who like other games LOL.
And just because you've played some BGH and watched some pro-games on TV doesn't mean you know anything about the game whatsoever. The very fact that you made this blog shows that you know absolutely nothing about Starcraft.
every word u touch turns to fucking gold man. sc:bw was is beautiful
On October 31 2011 15:53 RedJustice wrote: These people don't understand the agony of seeing your team make it to the playoffs year and after year, and knowing they have the potential to reach the Super Bowl, and seeing them lose over and over.
On October 31 2011 16:28 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: There's this girl that you like. She's kinda cute but you don't know if you like her enough to "love" her or not. You spend some time and get to know her and before you know it you're in a 10 year relationship and have had some of the best times of your lives together.
Then some douchebag comes along and tells you she's ugly.
? I didn't say that. I said I came along, and you told me just how amazing she was, and how no other girl in the world is like her. And I talked to her a bit, and concluded that I don't feel the same way as you do about her, even though she's a really awesome person. I also concluded I probably also don't feel the same way because I don't have the same kind of experiences with her that you do that make you love her so much.
Do you do that in real life to people? If not why are you doing it here lol.
Not everyone likes the same things we don't need a poorly worded potentially antagonizing blog to get that point across.
I think the point of this blog is to get bw fans to stop talking about how its so much better than anything else; trying to point out that whatever elitism we hold is really a product of some irrational emotional response.
Well, there are a lot of concrete things you can say about why BW is better than other games:
It requires more practice and skill to play well. It is an old game that hasn't gotten old because there are still amazing things to be done with it.
But that doesn't make someone love a game, just appreciate it a ton.
I think there's a particular ferocity of BW love because many of the people who have followed it for years did so in a very serious way. It's easier to be a casual SC2 fan than a casual BW fan because there's so many opportunities to watch and interact. SC2 is the pretty girl who's automatically endearing if you're a nerd. BW is kind of old and blocky, and she doesn't come out unless it's the middle of the night, so the people who stay up to see her absolutely adore her and are extremely dedicated fans. The type of fans who build stuff like TLPD just because it's cool, not with any ESPORTS intentions in mind. That's where the hardcore feelings you're talking about are coming from.
Besides that, though, is the unbelievable depth that the game contains. That on its own, even without watching or playing it, deserves an immense amount of appreciation, and is why BW pros receive the utmost respect, even from professionals of other games. The more you watch and see the fine details, the more that respect will turn into love. So it is and it isn't within BW itself. Part of it is the culture that has developed around it, but that culture is also predicated upon the smallest details of the game, so much so that it is studied more than any other ESPORT to date. I think if you put in some time to find those details, it's impossible not to fall in love.
My suggestion is to pick an awesome team like CJ, and not a shitty team like SKT, and follow them through a Proleague season. Watching 1 final, without knowing the players in advance, isn't quite the same.
On October 31 2011 18:47 iNfeRnaL wrote: Edit: At the car comparison above - let's make this comparison more simple. Think of a race car. You've got to shift yourself, you got to control the car yourself. That's the classical way of doing it. Right? You do everything yourself except providing the HP etc. That would be BW for you.
Compare it to a newer kind of race car. You don't have to shift anymore, you don't have to break anymore. All you got to do is steer and accelerate. That's pretty much SC2 in comparison.
Whyand how am I saying this? Well, that's the so called "mechanics" for you. Broodwar has no MBS, no auto-mining or auto-cast. That's the race car comparison for you.
Sure, it might be possible that in the newer kind of race car you will be able to drive faster laps and you'll do less mistakes and there might even be less crashes happening. So for the most logically thinking individuals, the second car should be the "better one".
No need to tell you the real race car is still a lot more exciting to those, who actually experienced the reign of the "real" ones, right?
and if you own a tv station are you going to put on the skillful rally drivers shifting, breaking, taking different lines, facing different weather... or the nascar with people going round a circle for hours? at no point have i said sc2 is better then bw. Its just newer and is bringing in more people. More people will be more advertising revenue and so the teams/sponsors etc will all follow
I dont see why bw cant continue when its got so many passionate fans and players. The community seem_ by far _to be the most epic/loyal/dedicated for any game ive ever seen
that said sc2 growing isn't a bad thing.. with the amount of references from casters/players/pros who were previously bw/people on this site surely you will still get a portion of the people who move in because of sc2's popularity that will still discover bw and can keep it slowly growing if not quite at the same rate?
On October 31 2011 19:31 Cuddle wrote: Nvm, I want to stay a part of this community so I'm staying out. Sorry, ignore this post.
I doubt they are going to ban everyone who's posted, I think people are making some reasonable points and the discussion keeps coming up - i'd rather see it addressed though maybe theres old threads for that. As long as people aren't just blindly swearing at each other is it really going to be a problem?
While ignorance can be quite annoying, it doesn't bother me much~ but when you say the magic isn't in the game is just flat out wrong. Take a look at this beautiful website, the fans, the players, the coaches, the motherfucking parents of the players who realized how special this game is to their children and that support from them alone is another source of that magic(which is also another beautiful thing).
How dare you say that magic isn't there? I'm fine if you don't see it yourself but straight up telling people it's NOT there is insulting. That magic IS there, you just fail to see it. Off topic: Sadly I don't have any IRL friends who love BW as much as I do. I do have a few friends who think BW is an inferior game due to the many dumb reasons we have seen and read~ (also my friend tells me that terran is the weakest race and that stealth units are overpowered which is funny to me)
Now they're all really into SC2 and I'm thinking about the other that weren't into BW but are not into SC2. Where the hell is the love you have for SC2 for BW? This is probably the lamest thing ever to me. I can't see how people like SC2 but don't like BW and many reasons I'll get are just weak. I know they are two different games but they are quite similar to each other.. IMO if you like SC2 you should have no problem liking BW but well it's all subjective I guess.
On October 31 2011 19:31 Cuddle wrote: Nvm, I want to stay a part of this community so I'm staying out. Sorry, ignore this post.
I doubt they are going to ban everyone who's posted, I think people are making some reasonable points and the discussion keeps coming up - i'd rather see it addressed though maybe theres old threads for that. As long as people aren't just blindly swearing at each other is it really going to be a problem?
I made a comparison that, after posting it, I realized it might not be very appreciated (as you can see from the guy posting below my first post, thanks endy for being forgiving). I wasn't afraid to be banned, I just didn't want to insult anyone and I didn't realize until after my post that I might.
yes yes YES YES YES! you really have it man and I totally agree with you 100 and +5 %. We share the exact same opinion, and all the people against you are probably BW fans themselves. It is not the game, for anything in the whole entire world. Instead of 3 races fighting it could have been 2 sticks fighting each other (that is really random) or some other crazy thing. The only thing that matters is the community and how they evolve with the game. You grow with the game, you fall in love with the game with everyone else, your friends, colleagues, etc. Modern warfare fans, diablo fans, SC 1 and 2, warcraft, dota, boaboabaoa blabala the list goes on forever, they dont really care about the game THAT much (although yes it is pretty cool if they have flashy graphics or awesome tactics involved) but the nostalgia and community behind it is amazing and is what carries the game, and you have it spot on. I will try recommend getting this spotlighted GREAT THREAD
On October 31 2011 19:41 Sephy90 wrote: While ignorance can be quite annoying, it doesn't bother me much~ but when you say the magic isn't in the game is just flat out wrong. Take a look at this beautiful website, the fans, the players, the coaches, the motherfucking parents of the players who realized how special this game is to their children and that support from them alone is another source of that magic(which is also another beautiful thing).
How dare you say that magic isn't there? I'm fine if you don't see it yourself but straight up telling people it's NOT there is insulting. That magic IS there, you just fail to see it. Off topic: Sadly I don't have any IRL friends who love BW as much as I do. I do have a few friends who think BW is an inferior game due to the many dumb reasons we have seen and read~ (also my friend tells me that terran is the weakest race and that stealth units are overpowered which is funny to me)
Now they're all really into SC2 and I'm thinking about the other that weren't into BW but are not into SC2. Where the hell is the love you have for SC2 for BW? This is probably the lamest thing ever to me. I can't see how people like SC2 but don't like BW and many reasons I'll get are just weak. I know they are two different games but they are quite similar to each other.. IMO if you like SC2 you should have no problem liking BW but well it's all subjective I guess.
You only mentioned the community and players when talking about magic, not a single word about the game itself and that is what the OP is pointing at.
The BW community has the "magic", the game is just the part that connects everyone together and it could have theoretically been any other game at that time.
On October 31 2011 19:48 firehand101 wrote: yes yes YES YES YES! you really have it man and I totally agree with you 100 and +5 %. We share the exact same opinion, and all the people against you are probably BW fans themselves. It is not the game, for anything in the whole entire world. Instead of 3 races fighting it could have been 2 sticks fighting each other (that is really random) or some other crazy thing. The only thing that matters is the community and how they evolve with the game. You grow with the game, you fall in love with the game with everyone else, your friends, colleagues, etc. Modern warfare fans, diablo fans, SC 1 and 2, warcraft, dota, boaboabaoa blabala the list goes on forever, they dont really care about the game THAT much (although yes it is pretty cool if they have flashy graphics or awesome tactics involved) but the nostalgia and community behind it is amazing and is what carries the game, and you have it spot on. I will try recommend getting this spotlighted GREAT THREAD
no, the game is magic, we are drawn by it, we draw from it.
nostalgia my ass,read the thread you will see all the differing opinions.
On October 31 2011 15:53 RedJustice wrote: BW doesn't have that magic-- that special something that makes it more wonderful than any other game, or any other RTS, or w/e. It doesn't have that sparkle.
I'll preface this by saying that I'm in no way a BW fan, but many of my friends and acquaintances whose opinions I respect are. That said:
I gather that the fundamental thing that makes a lot of the people who are BW fans love it so much is its extreme depth -- which is to say that it rewards extended effort. People who play for years continue to discover new things about the game.
That IS something specific to the game that distinguishes it from others. It's a quality that all great games share. It's also something that can take a huge investment of time and effort to appreciate, which is why the time you've put into trying to get your head around what people love about BW isn't close to enough.
As far as the comparison to SC2 goes, I think that the BW fans who dismiss SC2 out of hand for being a different game are going too far. However, the ones who say that it might wind up being a great game but isn't there yet are on to something, in the sense that it hasn't been around long enough to really know if it has that same kind of depth.
If SC2 settles into a long-term pattern where all the games start looking the same, that will be a good sign that it's not in BW's league in that regard. I don't believe that's close to happening yet, and honestly we probably won't have a chance to see how that really plays out until the second expansion is released, probably around 2020.
Another observation on that: It's quite possible that BW's depth was a direct result of Blizzard's willingness to follow the game and adjust balance years after its release, since the primary goal of balance changes is to prevent strategic dead-ends. There's every reason to believe they'll have the same long-term commitment to SC2.
Put another way, I'm not a chess fan either, because I just don't really approach cognitive problems in a way that lets me succeed at the game, but chess has that same kind of depth, and I'd be making a huge mistake to say that the people who love it are simply being nostalgic. I don't really like playing BW because the control has always felt wrong to me, but like my reaction to chess, I think that's just a matter of what I'm good at, and it's not inherently a weakness of the game in a larger sense.
Anyway, I think the hate you're getting from BW fans isn't appropriate considering that you've raised some reasonable questions that deserve a reasonable response. But, I don't think I agree with you.
On October 31 2011 19:41 Sephy90 wrote: While ignorance can be quite annoying, it doesn't bother me much~ but when you say the magic isn't in the game is just flat out wrong. Take a look at this beautiful website, the fans, the players, the coaches, the motherfucking parents of the players who realized how special this game is to their children and that support from them alone is another source of that magic(which is also another beautiful thing).
How dare you say that magic isn't there? I'm fine if you don't see it yourself but straight up telling people it's NOT there is insulting. That magic IS there, you just fail to see it. Off topic: Sadly I don't have any IRL friends who love BW as much as I do. I do have a few friends who think BW is an inferior game due to the many dumb reasons we have seen and read~ (also my friend tells me that terran is the weakest race and that stealth units are overpowered which is funny to me)
Now they're all really into SC2 and I'm thinking about the other that weren't into BW but are not into SC2. Where the hell is the love you have for SC2 for BW? This is probably the lamest thing ever to me. I can't see how people like SC2 but don't like BW and many reasons I'll get are just weak. I know they are two different games but they are quite similar to each other.. IMO if you like SC2 you should have no problem liking BW but well it's all subjective I guess.
You only mentioned the community and players when talking about magic, not a single word about the game itself and that is what the OP is pointing at.
The BW community has the "magic", the game is just the part that connects everyone together and it could have theoretically been any other game at that time.
On October 31 2011 19:41 Sephy90 wrote: While ignorance can be quite annoying, it doesn't bother me much~ but when you say the magic isn't in the game is just flat out wrong. Take a look at this beautiful website, the fans, the players, the coaches, the motherfucking parents of the players who realized how special this game is to their children and that support from them alone is another source of that magic(which is also another beautiful thing).
How dare you say that magic isn't there? I'm fine if you don't see it yourself but straight up telling people it's NOT there is insulting. That magic IS there, you just fail to see it. Off topic: Sadly I don't have any IRL friends who love BW as much as I do. I do have a few friends who think BW is an inferior game due to the many dumb reasons we have seen and read~ (also my friend tells me that terran is the weakest race and that stealth units are overpowered which is funny to me)
Now they're all really into SC2 and I'm thinking about the other that weren't into BW but are not into SC2. Where the hell is the love you have for SC2 for BW? This is probably the lamest thing ever to me. I can't see how people like SC2 but don't like BW and many reasons I'll get are just weak. I know they are two different games but they are quite similar to each other.. IMO if you like SC2 you should have no problem liking BW but well it's all subjective I guess.
You only mentioned the community and players when talking about magic, not a single word about the game itself and that is what the OP is pointing at.
The BW community has the "magic", the game is just the part that connects everyone together and it could have theoretically been any other game at that time.
Ahh I guess I wasn't specific enough I guess. I'm saying the game does have the magic, the examples of the people are the ones that see it from the game. They are are all connected but I think because they see the magically sparkly coolness from it. Also I did actually mention the magic being in the game, and telling the OP that he failed to see it.
It could have been any other game but I sort of disagree with that. I'm sure people back then were playing other games but why did Starcraft because so damned special why? IT'S THERE!
On October 31 2011 19:52 BLinD-RawR wrote: no, the game is magic, we are drawn by it, we draw from it.
nostalgia my ass,read the thread you will see all the differing opinions.
On October 31 2011 18:47 iNfeRnaL wrote: Edit: At the car comparison above - let's make this comparison more simple. Think of a race car. You've got to shift yourself, you got to control the car yourself. That's the classical way of doing it. Right? You do everything yourself except providing the HP etc. That would be BW for you.
Compare it to a newer kind of race car. You don't have to shift anymore, you don't have to break anymore. All you got to do is steer and accelerate. That's pretty much SC2 in comparison.
Whyand how am I saying this? Well, that's the so called "mechanics" for you. Broodwar has no MBS, no auto-mining or auto-cast. That's the race car comparison for you.
Sure, it might be possible that in the newer kind of race car you will be able to drive faster laps and you'll do less mistakes and there might even be less crashes happening. So for the most logically thinking individuals, the second car should be the "better one".
No need to tell you the real race car is still a lot more exciting to those, who actually experienced the reign of the "real" ones, right?
and if you own a tv station are you going to put on the skillful rally drivers shifting, breaking, taking different lines, facing different weather... or the nascar with people going round a circle for hours? at no point have i said sc2 is better then bw. Its just newer and is bringing in more people. More people will be more advertising revenue and so the teams/sponsors etc will all follow
I dont see why bw cant continue when its got so many passionate fans and players. The community seem_ by far _to be the most epic/loyal/dedicated for any game ive ever seen
that said sc2 growing isn't a bad thing.. with the amount of references from casters/players/pros who were previously bw/people on this site surely you will still get a portion of the people who move in because of sc2's popularity that will still discover bw and can keep it slowly growing if not quite at the same rate?
I'll quite the last part of my post above: "Sure, it might be possible that in the newer kind of race car you will be able to drive faster laps and you'll do less mistakes and there might even be less crashes happening. So for the most logically thinking individuals, the second car should be the "better one".
No need to tell you the real race car is still a lot more exciting to those, who actually experienced the reign of the "real" ones, right?" This part also implies that it might not be the worst thing ever to drive the new cars (more safe, less mistakes, better lap times.) I play SC2 myself and I kind of start to like it a little bit, but I'm not close to be as enthuasiastic for it as I was for BW. (again, keep in mind, I was a BW "pro" and played that game 10 years of my life.) Also I do think that Broodwar progamers are a lot more skilled than SC2 progamers because of that very raw mechanic skills needed in Broodwar.
To your comparison with Nascar I only can answer - how many people are there who don't like Nascar at all because - in all honesty - it is a lot more boring / less skilled than some other racing sports. Driving in a circle all the time isn't as hard as a real track, no doubt about that one, right? That being said Nascar (and SC2 to go further) requires a lot of skill too, but arguably not as much as the others.
You've obviously never obtained an instant "gg" with a Godly reaver harass and seeing your opponent's reaction from either across the room or the internet. The magic in BW lives in each unit and the potential they all have (except the stupid scout, unless you're Kal on Colosseum).
I agree that Brood War is not that special if you view it solely with casual eyes, as someone who plays some games with their friends on the weekends, massing Battlecruisers and Carriers and such and doesn't care about B.net and pro level competition. It's similar to WC3, as you said, an incredibly well made RTS.
BUT, if you try to get into the game more and more, THEN it will unveil itself as the best RTS ever created. I realized this when I started to watch pro matches and the commentators explained the +1 speed zealot timing attack. The +1 upgrade makes SO much difference in the game, that it can decide a match instantly. That's and such things make BW the most refined RTS game ever created.
On October 31 2011 18:47 iNfeRnaL wrote: Edit: At the car comparison above - let's make this comparison more simple. Think of a race car. You've got to shift yourself, you got to control the car yourself. That's the classical way of doing it. Right? You do everything yourself except providing the HP etc. That would be BW for you.
Compare it to a newer kind of race car. You don't have to shift anymore, you don't have to break anymore. All you got to do is steer and accelerate. That's pretty much SC2 in comparison.
Whyand how am I saying this? Well, that's the so called "mechanics" for you. Broodwar has no MBS, no auto-mining or auto-cast. That's the race car comparison for you.
Sure, it might be possible that in the newer kind of race car you will be able to drive faster laps and you'll do less mistakes and there might even be less crashes happening. So for the most logically thinking individuals, the second car should be the "better one".
No need to tell you the real race car is still a lot more exciting to those, who actually experienced the reign of the "real" ones, right?
and if you own a tv station are you going to put on the skillful rally drivers shifting, breaking, taking different lines, facing different weather... or the nascar with people going round a circle for hours? at no point have i said sc2 is better then bw. Its just newer and is bringing in more people. More people will be more advertising revenue and so the teams/sponsors etc will all follow
I dont see why bw cant continue when its got so many passionate fans and players. The community seem_ by far _to be the most epic/loyal/dedicated for any game ive ever seen
that said sc2 growing isn't a bad thing.. with the amount of references from casters/players/pros who were previously bw/people on this site surely you will still get a portion of the people who move in because of sc2's popularity that will still discover bw and can keep it slowly growing if not quite at the same rate?
I'll quite the last part of my post above: "Sure, it might be possible that in the newer kind of race car you will be able to drive faster laps and you'll do less mistakes and there might even be less crashes happening. So for the most logically thinking individuals, the second car should be the "better one".
No need to tell you the real race car is still a lot more exciting to those, who actually experienced the reign of the "real" ones, right?" This part also implies that it might not be the worst thing ever to drive the new cars (more safe, less mistakes, better lap times.)
I play SC2 myself and I kind of start to like it a little bit, but I'm not close to be as enthuasiastic for it as I was for BW. (again, keep in mind, I was a BW "pro" and played that game 10 years of my life.) Also I do think that Broodwar progamers are a lot more skilled than SC2 progamers because of that very raw mechanic skills needed in Broodwar.
To your comparison with Nascar I only can answer - how many people are there who don't like Nascar at all because - in all honesty - it is a lot more boring / less skilled than some other racing sports. Driving in a circle all the time isn't as hard as a real track, no doubt about that one, right? That being said Nascar (and SC2 to go further) requires a lot of skill too, but arguably not as much as the others.
It seems we are out of disagreements then. I guess all thats left is to wish you luck on your progress in both games and promise one day (some day) i will appreciate bw for all that it is.
Yall being too hard on her.....if she ever saw Breeze[Akuta]'s(or i think it was IntoTheRain) PvT on an island map, or V.Gundam go MM vs Toss and win using the most godly storm dodging of its time, this blog would never exist so please forgive her.
EDIT: -Also add Jaedong raping Terran using only Muta Micro. Jaedong's Lurkerless ZvT on Andromeda vs Flash V.Gundam's relentless TvP style Boxer's Dropship play.(Bonus if its a TvT with Nada)
No way anyone can say there is no magic in this game. So many amazing stuff i seen over the years playing/watching this game.
But to be fair to RedJustice, I understand what she is trying to say. Basically she is speaking of the emotional attachment fans have come to develop over the years as its true "magic". Its an interesting hypothesis with merit. Give her a break.
You seem to think that the passion and fondness people have for BW is the result of playing/following the game for such a long period. I couldn't disagree me. I started watching/playing BW in late 2009 and in less than a month or two, I was hooked on professional BW and became obsessed with trying to overcome the steep beginner's challenge on Battle.net/iccup.
On the other hand, I've been watching SC2 every now and then (mainly high-profile matches like MVP vs. Nestea) ever since the beta, and it still hasn't gripped me in the same way that BW did. Professional BW is still, hands down, the most awe-inspiring stuff you'll see in any video game ever. It blows my mind how despite all the mechanical limitations, players like Jaedong, Flash, and Bisu seem to have far better reaction timings, army control, game sense, and decision making compared to the top SC2 players.
Also LAN. Playing LAN BW with my friends is some of the most fun I've ever had, and the lack of LAN is SC2 is one reason why I believe SC2 can never hope to be as good as BW.
On October 31 2011 18:22 Morfildur wrote: I have to agree with the OP. I played SC1 and later BW in our small 4-8 player LANS when it came out and still a year later, so i still carry some nostalgia about winning 4 player FFAs, crushing my brother on Lost Temple, etc... but it's the past.
Sure, it requires a ton of skill to play, but so do for example Dune 2 or Warcraft 1/2 (which might even require more skill than BW). The reason why we see a professional BW scene is because it was there at the right time with a lot of luck and the players and community made the game to what it is now, not the game itself. A lot of games might have done it, but they either lacked features ((online) multiplayer, observers, ...), were released at the wrong time or just didn't get lucky (for example Supreme Commander was close to breaking the line).
I still love BW for the memories of childhood times, but it's not capturing me like 12 years ago. I don't get excited when i watch it and i don't have fun playing it (mostly because of unit pathing. I hate dragoons and ultralisks -.- Don't know how i could have enjoyed that 12 years ago).
In the end, players and fans are more important than the game itself. There doesn't have to be a logical reason why you like something (or noone would watch American Football or Soccer).
Why don't you just play Terran? Honestly I think complaints about BW unit pathing is a bit superficial. To me it seems like you're just looking for an excuse, something to complain on, because you didn't want to get into BW in the first place. I can definately see many reasons why you wouldn't want to get into BW. SC2 is just so much more appealing as a community.
Anyway, big units in BW like the dragoon are supposed to be a bit clunky. They were designed that way and it makes sense given their size. In fact if dragoons clumped up naturally it would just backfire, because dragoons are the main targets of siege tanks, and the splash damage would kill them. Dragoons were designed to roam in open spaces and snipe powerful units from afar and for that purpose they get the job done without any hiccups.
I think the BW pathing along with the magic boxing, which enables you to adjust their rough formation is brilliant. It's more realistic than the tight formations in SC2 and it encourages positional play and micro.
What a god awful blog. You just come up with a totally arbitrary definition of ”magic” and without any logical arguments you conclude that BW lacks it. First off, why the hell cant there be magic inherent in a game? Of course BW gets more exciting if you are familiar with the players and their stories etc. But as you may or may not know, BW pretty much created eSports. How could this game draw enormous amounts of viewers, be broadcasted on TV, create professional teams with players with unreal salaries if there isn’t something special with the game to begin with? BW built an entire scene out of nothing because people find the game to be extremely fun/rewarding. Yet, it still doesn’t qualify to your subjective view of “magic”, so therefore BW lacks magic. Great reasoning.
Secondly, it’s pretty funny that you after “watching some vods, playing the campaign and even *gasp* a few games over LAN” tell an entire community dedicated to BW that this game lacks magic. So after spending minimal time on the game, you think that you can speak for everyone that hasn’t been following the game since the beginning? On the contrary, even now (13 years after the release date) new players are hooked and begin to enjoy this game, without having any prior “emotional connection” to BW. That means that BW is pretty damn special, regardless if you liked it or not.
SC2 is (mostly) criticized for specific flaws in game design, i.e. logical arguments. Your whole blog pretty much boils down to “I didn’t like BW that much, therefore it lacks magic.”
I really don't understand the point of posting this; getting something off your chest? Saying something like bw isn't any special over another rts site on a BW(started) site, herp derp??
Starcraft is the only game that I've never dropped and forgotten about. I didn't follow the proscene. I didn't follow teamliquid. Hell, my only friends with playing Starcraft was this white guy who played longer than me and was under the impression that Spawning Pools were 150 minerals because he didn't read the new patch notes. I'm still playing this game. It wasn't until 2005 that I started actually hanging out with people who knew about the eSports scene.
On October 31 2011 18:22 Morfildur wrote: I have to agree with the OP. I played SC1 and later BW in our small 4-8 player LANS when it came out and still a year later, so i still carry some nostalgia about winning 4 player FFAs, crushing my brother on Lost Temple, etc... but it's the past.
Sure, it requires a ton of skill to play, but so do for example Dune 2 or Warcraft 1/2 (which might even require more skill than BW). The reason why we see a professional BW scene is because it was there at the right time with a lot of luck and the players and community made the game to what it is now, not the game itself. A lot of games might have done it, but they either lacked features ((online) multiplayer, observers, ...), were released at the wrong time or just didn't get lucky (for example Supreme Commander was close to breaking the line).
I still love BW for the memories of childhood times, but it's not capturing me like 12 years ago. I don't get excited when i watch it and i don't have fun playing it (mostly because of unit pathing. I hate dragoons and ultralisks -.- Don't know how i could have enjoyed that 12 years ago).
In the end, players and fans are more important than the game itself. There doesn't have to be a logical reason why you like something (or noone would watch American Football or Soccer).
Why don't you just play Terran? Honestly I think complaints about BW unit pathing is a bit superficial. To me it seems like you're just looking for an excuse, something to complain on, because you didn't want to get into BW in the first place. I can definately see many reasons why you wouldn't want to get into BW. SC2 is just so much more appealing as a community.
Anyway, big units in BW like the dragoon are supposed to be a bit clunky. They were designed that way and it makes sense given their size. In fact if dragoons clumped up naturally it would just backfire, because dragoons are the main targets of siege tanks, and the splash damage would kill them. Dragoons were designed to roam in open spaces and snipe powerful units from afar and for that purpose they get the job done without any hiccups.
I think the BW pathing along with the magic boxing, which enables you to adjust their rough formation is brilliant. It's more realistic than the tight formations in SC2 and it encourages positional play and micro.
Please stop protecting the BW pathfinding. Some units being nearly unable to move down a choke or other narrow pass is NOT good (but this being different would probably alter SC/BW's balance quite a bit ^^).
The Magicboxing/lose formations are good... But the path finding? Horrible :D.. You just get used to it but be honest for a moment... If you would play a new game with that Pathfinding nowadays you would never stop complaining ^^.
WC3 seemed like a nice mix of SC/BW and SC2 when it comes to the path finding/boxing...
It's not nearly as bad as you make it sound, and it's limited to a few units. And it does encourage positionnal play and micro. Edit : And I agree most of the people that bashed the blog.
This was a well written blog and a good read, but I do not agree that magic can be reduced to nostalgia and things that are exterior to the game. Sure, I would probably not be here now if it wasn't for Klazart and Jaedong. But these great guys were only inspiring because they reflected and made me understand some of the magic of the game. Sure, that feeling doesn't come over night, you learn to see it, but it is brood war at the end of the day that is unique and it has created a unique community, players, memories.
On October 31 2011 15:53 RedJustice wrote: These people don't understand the agony of seeing your team make it to the playoffs year and after year, and knowing they have the potential to reach the Super Bowl, and seeing them lose over and over.
ahahahahahahaha where are the CJ fans at?
LOL makes this entire thread worth it
THOUGH they did win winners league in an epic series
My favorite team only winning the league by beating my favorite player
On October 31 2011 22:21 corumjhaelen wrote: It's not nearly as bad as you make it sound, and it's limited to a few units. And it does encourage positionnal play and micro. Edit : And I agree most of the people that bashed the blog.
It is every unit that has the size of a Gholiat or more (which is many?). It is extremly bad. Seriously, when your used to it you don't notice it that much because you begin to construct your whole base with the AI in mind... If you're not used to it (anymore) it's bad, really, really bad.
I can see where you're coming from. Starcraft is the only game that I've always had installed on every computer we've ever owned and I've played it since '98 but I don't have the attachment to it that other people do. Don't get me wrong it's a fucking amazing game but I just don't feel that same magic about it that everyone else here does. The game itself brought me to many amazing communities though.
This blog almost gave me a brain aneurysm. What about people like me who joined the BW scene relatively late? I haven't invested anything into the game over the years. I never stayed up late to watch Proleague. In fact most games are broadcast in the morning so I can watch them confortably over breakfast. The game is special, there's no argument here. I and many others fell in lvoe because the game is just that good. The magic is there!
On October 31 2011 15:53 RedJustice wrote: These people don't understand the agony of seeing your team make it to the playoffs year and after year, and knowing they have the potential to reach the Super Bowl, and seeing them lose over and over.
ahahahahahahaha where are the CJ fans at?
I was casually reading through this thread until I get to the 3rd page then WHAM suckerpunch.
Damn you Hpig.
STX ;_;
Yeah, except STX never makes it into the Playoffs LOL! :3
Brood War not good? Well youre wrong, unfortunately. Its the highest rated RTS game of all time, whatever site you go to. Its like complaining about Godfather, Pulp Fiction, or Beatles not being good. Sure you can complain, but that doesnt make you right.
BW doesn't have that magic-- that special something that makes it more wonderful than any other game, or any other RTS, or w/e
Stopped reading here.
On October 31 2011 16:00 Ideas wrote: then what game DOES have "the magic"?
Sums my thoughts up pretty well, you don't even compare it to another game - but to watching super bowl and not the regular season... that's the same as only watching the finals of SPL, SWL, MSl and OSL - you're missing out. And you further fuck your point up by saying that's its only because they have followed the scene for so long. I've started watching pro BW since 3-4 years ago and I was just as convinced back then as I am now
To me it seems your arguement is that we think this game is fucking awesome and is praise worthy over everything else... but that it's nothing special? What are you trying to prove? That BW is inferior? To what? SC2? You can think that (or whaterver you think is superior to BW). But why the hella re you wasting your time trying to get us to not think so? What's your point?
On October 31 2011 16:23 heyoka wrote: TL wouldn't exist if this was true. Its not some weird oddity that the most passionate gaming community on the internet exists for "this one game that is like every other". You know why we have comprehensive resources that detail the entire history of our game, literally every single recorded match, and you can't find shit about WC3 history or how CS evolved or Daigo's career win-loss record? It's not an accident.
My sentiments exactly. As other people have already stated, some people didn't join until just a few years ago and can still find the magic that BW holds; including myself.
Whats funny about all this is, when you talk about sc2 and regular stuff people say that your opinion is irrelevant and nobody cares. But as soon as you start talking about bw everybody is going nuts about it and treats you like you were some kind of new york times journalist that just released an article saying eSports is fake. I don't get it, if RedJustice's opinion is so irrelevant, why do people still feel the need to talk about it?
Can't you just say "I think you are wrong, sorry." and leave it like that? o.o'
On October 31 2011 23:19 KeksX wrote: Whats funny about all this is, when you talk about sc2 and regular stuff people say that your opinion is irrelevant and nobody cares. But as soon as you start talking about bw everybody is going nuts about it and treats you like you were some kind of new york times journalist that just released an article saying eSports is fake. I don't get it, if RedJustice's opinion is so irrelevant, why do people still feel the need to talk about it?
Can't you just say "I think you are wrong, sorry." and leave it like that? o.o'
Because we care, because we have passion, because we want to make people understand, give them a chance to participate in playing and understanding the greatest game ever to be played. Because if the OP goes back, watches an OSL with the ideas expressed in this thread playing around his head and enjoys it, and becomes a passionate BW fan, we've done our job. Even if it doesn't work, we have to give him the chance.
That's why we will always, always defend BW when it is attacked, because we care, and we want others to care too.
On October 31 2011 18:22 Morfildur wrote: I have to agree with the OP. I played SC1 and later BW in our small 4-8 player LANS when it came out and still a year later, so i still carry some nostalgia about winning 4 player FFAs, crushing my brother on Lost Temple, etc... but it's the past.
Sure, it requires a ton of skill to play, but so do for example Dune 2 or Warcraft 1/2 (which might even require more skill than BW). The reason why we see a professional BW scene is because it was there at the right time with a lot of luck and the players and community made the game to what it is now, not the game itself. A lot of games might have done it, but they either lacked features ((online) multiplayer, observers, ...), were released at the wrong time or just didn't get lucky (for example Supreme Commander was close to breaking the line).
I still love BW for the memories of childhood times, but it's not capturing me like 12 years ago. I don't get excited when i watch it and i don't have fun playing it (mostly because of unit pathing. I hate dragoons and ultralisks -.- Don't know how i could have enjoyed that 12 years ago).
In the end, players and fans are more important than the game itself. There doesn't have to be a logical reason why you like something (or noone would watch American Football or Soccer).
Why don't you just play Terran? Honestly I think complaints about BW unit pathing is a bit superficial. To me it seems like you're just looking for an excuse, something to complain on, because you didn't want to get into BW in the first place. I can definately see many reasons why you wouldn't want to get into BW. SC2 is just so much more appealing as a community.
Anyway, big units in BW like the dragoon are supposed to be a bit clunky. They were designed that way and it makes sense given their size. In fact if dragoons clumped up naturally it would just backfire, because dragoons are the main targets of siege tanks, and the splash damage would kill them. Dragoons were designed to roam in open spaces and snipe powerful units from afar and for that purpose they get the job done without any hiccups.
I think the BW pathing along with the magic boxing, which enables you to adjust their rough formation is brilliant. It's more realistic than the tight formations in SC2 and it encourages positional play and micro.
Please stop protecting the BW pathfinding. Some units being nearly unable to move down a choke or other narrow pass is NOT good (but this being different would probably alter SC/BW's balance quite a bit ^^).
The Magicboxing/lose formations are good... But the path finding? Horrible :D.. You just get used to it but be honest for a moment... If you would play a new game with that Pathfinding nowadays you would never stop complaining ^^.
WC3 seemed like a nice mix of SC/BW and SC2 when it comes to the path finding/boxing...
The only problem I've had with the pathing is if I want to move a unit down a ramp and it's blocked, then the unit can react a bit unexpectedly and try to find another exit, even though it doesn't exist, but the moment the blocking unit moves, the unit up the ramp will find the way out without you having to reenter the move command. Ideally, the unit would move towards the blocking unit and wait for it to move, but him running around for a while doesn't really bother me. The pathing in BW isn't as bad as ppl think and it's definately better than in SC2 imo, where everything just move like blobs. The AI can be a bit stupid when units are moving out of range, like goliaths against Carriers, but if they "fixed" that issue there would be other "issues". Some ppl also complain about no smart aiming. But that would just make siege tanks overpowered and doesn't really add anything, and it doesn't really make sense either in terms of realism.
On October 31 2011 22:37 Velr wrote: It is every unit that has the size of a Gholiat or more (which is many?). It is extremly bad. Seriously, when your used to it you don't notice it that much because you begin to construct your whole base with the AI in mind... If you're not used to it (anymore) it's bad, really, really bad.
There is absolutely no reason why you would have to construct your base with the AI in mind, the only thing I can think of (although it has nothing to do with AI) is scv's or produced units getting stuck between buildings, but that's called sloppy building placements and can happen in most rts games.
On October 31 2011 23:19 KeksX wrote: Whats funny about all this is, when you talk about sc2 and regular stuff people say that your opinion is irrelevant and nobody cares. But as soon as you start talking about bw everybody is going nuts about it and treats you like you were some kind of new york times journalist that just released an article saying eSports is fake. I don't get it, if RedJustice's opinion is so irrelevant, why do people still feel the need to talk about it?
Can't you just say "I think you are wrong, sorry." and leave it like that? o.o'
Because we care, because we have passion, because we want to make people understand, give them a chance to participate in playing and understanding the greatest game ever to be played. Because if the OP goes back, watches an OSL with the ideas expressed in this thread playing around his head and enjoys it, and becomes a passionate BW fan, we've done our job. Even if it doesn't work, we have to give him the chance.
That's why we will always, always defend BW when it is attacked, because we care, and we want others to care too.
I know that and I clearly understand it, I think BW is awesome, too. Really. I wasn't talking about all this passion etc not being justified...
It's just...No offense to her, really, but she is just some random girl saying that she doesn't "feel the magic". And there are thousands of hundreds people out there who say the same stuff - will you go out and "teach them your ways"?
Broodwar isn't broken. A broken game is one that has a dominant strategy. When a game has a dominant strategy it degenerates - no one uses any other strategies besides the dominant one. Sometimes when the game is complex enough (all RTS games basically) it may take a very long time to discover a dominant strategy. An you can totally have fun with a broken game until you find a dominant strategy.
Remember AOE2? Fun, right? Well, it's broken. Everyone who plays it competitively uses huns. Imagine Broodwar big in Korea and everyone playing zerg. Sounds stupid.
That's why Broodwar is big and other games aren't. I don't think there are any RTS games besides Broodwar that are proven not broken, yet.
On October 31 2011 23:19 KeksX wrote: Whats funny about all this is, when you talk about sc2 and regular stuff people say that your opinion is irrelevant and nobody cares. But as soon as you start talking about bw everybody is going nuts about it and treats you like you were some kind of new york times journalist that just released an article saying eSports is fake. I don't get it, if RedJustice's opinion is so irrelevant, why do people still feel the need to talk about it?
Can't you just say "I think you are wrong, sorry." and leave it like that? o.o'
Because we care, because we have passion, because we want to make people understand, give them a chance to participate in playing and understanding the greatest game ever to be played. Because if the OP goes back, watches an OSL with the ideas expressed in this thread playing around his head and enjoys it, and becomes a passionate BW fan, we've done our job. Even if it doesn't work, we have to give him the chance.
That's why we will always, always defend BW when it is attacked, because we care, and we want others to care too.
I know that and I clearly understand it, I think BW is awesome, too. Really. I wasn't talking about all this passion etc not being justified...
It's just...No offense to her, really, but she is just some random girl saying that she doesn't "feel the magic". And there are thousands of hundreds people out there who say the same stuff - will you go out and "teach them your ways"?
I'm just happy that she actually tried everything and formed her own opinion,to me thats fine.
I would love to teach people our ways,have you seen that thread? the dude comes back within 4 hours after he posts the thread going, "OMG OMG OMG the passion is amazing!!!!" he found the magic
I'd love it if everyone was like him and the OP who actually formed their own opinions,but you can't teach those who don't want to learn.
On October 31 2011 23:19 KeksX wrote: Whats funny about all this is, when you talk about sc2 and regular stuff people say that your opinion is irrelevant and nobody cares. But as soon as you start talking about bw everybody is going nuts about it and treats you like you were some kind of new york times journalist that just released an article saying eSports is fake. I don't get it, if RedJustice's opinion is so irrelevant, why do people still feel the need to talk about it?
Can't you just say "I think you are wrong, sorry." and leave it like that? o.o'
Because we care, because we have passion, because we want to make people understand, give them a chance to participate in playing and understanding the greatest game ever to be played. Because if the OP goes back, watches an OSL with the ideas expressed in this thread playing around his head and enjoys it, and becomes a passionate BW fan, we've done our job. Even if it doesn't work, we have to give him the chance.
That's why we will always, always defend BW when it is attacked, because we care, and we want others to care too.
I know that and I clearly understand it, I think BW is awesome, too. Really. I wasn't talking about all this passion etc not being justified...
It's just...No offense to her, really, but she is just some random girl saying that she doesn't "feel the magic". And there are thousands of hundreds people out there who say the same stuff - will you go out and "teach them your ways"?
If I get the chance? Yes, absolutely! I'm not going to way out of my way to correct everyone who disagrees with me, but when I stumble upon an opportunity to express my thoughts on something I care about, why would I hold back? ^_^
On October 31 2011 23:19 KeksX wrote: Whats funny about all this is, when you talk about sc2 and regular stuff people say that your opinion is irrelevant and nobody cares. But as soon as you start talking about bw everybody is going nuts about it and treats you like you were some kind of new york times journalist that just released an article saying eSports is fake. I don't get it, if RedJustice's opinion is so irrelevant, why do people still feel the need to talk about it?
Can't you just say "I think you are wrong, sorry." and leave it like that? o.o'
Because we care, because we have passion, because we want to make people understand, give them a chance to participate in playing and understanding the greatest game ever to be played. Because if the OP goes back, watches an OSL with the ideas expressed in this thread playing around his head and enjoys it, and becomes a passionate BW fan, we've done our job. Even if it doesn't work, we have to give him the chance.
That's why we will always, always defend BW when it is attacked, because we care, and we want others to care too.
I know that and I clearly understand it, I think BW is awesome, too. Really. I wasn't talking about all this passion etc not being justified...
It's just...No offense to her, really, but she is just some random girl saying that she doesn't "feel the magic". And there are thousands of hundreds people out there who say the same stuff - will you go out and "teach them your ways"?
If we didn't do this, then what's the point in ever posting lol. We all have some sort of reason to post but I understand where you're coming from completely, usually I just ignore it but sometimes it's nice to just chat/rant/argue/discuss and what not :D:D
Your entire blog is nothing but a blatant troll against the BW community. How you can say "magic = long time emotional investment" and not connect the dots to the fact starcraft has been out since 1998?
On October 31 2011 16:37 Rekrul wrote: Feel free to try again if you want.
I feel like you (OP) misunderstands not only bw but competitive sports in general. What you described sounds like the typical gf/wife, or in this case daughter, who gets interested in a sport thru someone else's passion. imo you have to play the game to truly appreciate it, everyone else is just there for the social aspect. It's why you think football comes down to just rooting for the home team lol.
BW doesn't have that magic-- that special something that makes it more wonderful than any other game, or any other RTS, or w/e
Stopped reading here.
Haha, me too
but you read through the posts anyways? ^^
Anyways, I dont like the OPs opinion much either but the few people who were behaving that way need to stop with their sexist bullshit How can you even start with your "oh ok youre a girl, of course you dont get it" when theres people like smix posting in the same thread
On October 31 2011 23:19 KeksX wrote: Whats funny about all this is, when you talk about sc2 and regular stuff people say that your opinion is irrelevant and nobody cares. But as soon as you start talking about bw everybody is going nuts about it and treats you like you were some kind of new york times journalist that just released an article saying eSports is fake. I don't get it, if RedJustice's opinion is so irrelevant, why do people still feel the need to talk about it?
Can't you just say "I think you are wrong, sorry." and leave it like that? o.o'
Because her opinion is posted on by far the biggest English speaking BW community and has been for years. This reaction isnt al all surprising, especially given the recent SC2/BW announcements.
On October 31 2011 18:22 Morfildur wrote: I have to agree with the OP. I played SC1 and later BW in our small 4-8 player LANS when it came out and still a year later, so i still carry some nostalgia about winning 4 player FFAs, crushing my brother on Lost Temple, etc... but it's the past.
Sure, it requires a ton of skill to play, but so do for example Dune 2 or Warcraft 1/2 (which might even require more skill than BW). The reason why we see a professional BW scene is because it was there at the right time with a lot of luck and the players and community made the game to what it is now, not the game itself. A lot of games might have done it, but they either lacked features ((online) multiplayer, observers, ...), were released at the wrong time or just didn't get lucky (for example Supreme Commander was close to breaking the line).
I still love BW for the memories of childhood times, but it's not capturing me like 12 years ago. I don't get excited when i watch it and i don't have fun playing it (mostly because of unit pathing. I hate dragoons and ultralisks -.- Don't know how i could have enjoyed that 12 years ago).
In the end, players and fans are more important than the game itself. There doesn't have to be a logical reason why you like something (or noone would watch American Football or Soccer).
Why don't you just play Terran? Honestly I think complaints about BW unit pathing is a bit superficial. To me it seems like you're just looking for an excuse, something to complain on, because you didn't want to get into BW in the first place. I can definately see many reasons why you wouldn't want to get into BW. SC2 is just so much more appealing as a community.
Anyway, big units in BW like the dragoon are supposed to be a bit clunky. They were designed that way and it makes sense given their size. In fact if dragoons clumped up naturally it would just backfire, because dragoons are the main targets of siege tanks, and the splash damage would kill them. Dragoons were designed to roam in open spaces and snipe powerful units from afar and for that purpose they get the job done without any hiccups.
I think the BW pathing along with the magic boxing, which enables you to adjust their rough formation is brilliant. It's more realistic than the tight formations in SC2 and it encourages positional play and micro.
Please stop protecting the BW pathfinding. Some units being nearly unable to move down a choke or other narrow pass is NOT good (but this being different would probably alter SC/BW's balance quite a bit ^^).
The Magicboxing/lose formations are good... But the path finding? Horrible :D.. You just get used to it but be honest for a moment... If you would play a new game with that Pathfinding nowadays you would never stop complaining ^^.
WC3 seemed like a nice mix of SC/BW and SC2 when it comes to the path finding/boxing...
The only problem I've had with the pathing is if I want to move a unit down a ramp and it's blocked, then the unit can react a bit unexpectedly and try to find another exit, even though it doesn't exist, but the moment the blocking unit moves, the unit up the ramp will find the way out without you having to reenter the move command. Ideally, the unit would move towards the blocking unit and wait for it to move, but him running around for a while doesn't really bother me. The pathing in BW isn't as bad as ppl think and it's definately better than in SC2 imo, where everything just move like blobs. The AI can be a bit stupid when units are moving out of range, like goliaths against Carriers, but if they "fixed" that issue there would be other "issues". Some ppl also complain about no smart aiming. But that would just make siege tanks overpowered and doesn't really add anything, and it doesn't really make sense either in terms of realism.
On October 31 2011 22:37 Velr wrote: It is every unit that has the size of a Gholiat or more (which is many?). It is extremly bad. Seriously, when your used to it you don't notice it that much because you begin to construct your whole base with the AI in mind... If you're not used to it (anymore) it's bad, really, really bad.
There is absolutely no reason why you would have to construct your base with the AI in mind, the only thing I can think of (although it has nothing to do with AI) is scv's or produced units getting stuck between buildings, but that's called sloppy building placements and can happen in most rts games.
It several times happened to me (after i started playing it often/serious) that the "pathing" would like to send my Dragoons out of my base via the Probeline, which for Dragoons is like a solid Wall.... Was my baselayout stupid? Sure... Well, actually no, Dragoons were just stupid and thats why my baselayout was stupid...
Seriously, i love SC/BW... But defending the pathfinding of it's units is just total and utter bullshit.
It's just...No offense to her, really, but she is just some random girl saying that she doesn't "feel the magic". And there are thousands of hundreds people out there who say the same stuff - will you go out and "teach them your ways"?
It wouldn't be a problem if she simply said she couldn't "feel the magic". She said the gamedidn't have that magic that makes it different from any other game. She then went on to say that it is in reality a well made RTS as any other well made RTS which just got luckier and made a huge community. That it's glory wasn't due to it's inherent qualities but was created by the community which randomly picked it up and somehow came to like it.
I'm sorry to say that this is a fallacy which can be generalized.
Just applied to music, it's like saying that masterpieces of classical music aren't masterpieces because of what they have but because they are old and liked by a lot of people for too long.
Or Dune (the books) is just another science fiction saga with all the rest and this statement; "I know nothing comparable to it, accept the lord of the rings." by Arthur C. Clarke was a mere result of good old times he spent with it and the lord of the rings, which happen to be another fruit of mass coincidence.
I don't want to go on with this but I can't help it so one last example. The OP is like saying physics isn't fascinating and intriguing because the universe is inherently complex and wonderful but because Richard Feynman spent a lot of time working on path integrals and happened to be a great speaker at the same time.
No, BW and 9th symphony and Dune and the Universe are all inherently wonderful. Nerds appreciate and love these because they have the magic.
Nerds are extremely picky people, what were you thinking really?
And personally I find football incredibly boring to watch, and don't understand the craze that people can have for that game. Come on, every match looks the same, the clock never starts/stops in any reasonable sense, and they've been playing on the same map for like 80 years now. Emotional attachment to that game makes zero sense to me.
But broodwar... <3 so many memories.
On October 31 2011 16:16 Jumperer wrote: You don't get it because you're a girl. Female's brain are wired differently than Male. This is why Men can't stand twilight while female continues to obsessed over with it.
Oh please. I grew up with this game, and it's still magic to me.
I started watching SOME BW vods on Youtube. I watched the OSL live with some friends a few weeks back. I got myself a copy of BW, and PLAYED PARTS of the campaign, and even A FEW games over LAN with friends.
Sounds like you have a really informed opinion there.
Did you follow the MLB Playoffs 2011? Doesn't matter if you are an American Football fan, or hater of baseball, but if you followed along, it was indeed MAGICAL.
Magic of St Louis and Tampa coming back 10 games behind and making the playoffs LAST GAME of the season (and Evan Longoria's HR and tampa's zombie mode was EPIC).
St. Louis's magical run and doing the impossible beating the Phillies and manhandling Brewers and then game 6, where even more magic happened, they came back from deficit 6 times in 1 game, and won with walk off home run.
So, isn't this magical? Will you say Baseball has no appeal or nothing special in the game? Well, BW is just like this. The last OSL final was identical to the playoffs. Jangbi's run to victory was indeed incredible.
OP, I can't help but to feel that you are just a nasty troll. As someone above me said, if you said 'I don't feel there is nothing magical about the game' would have been OK. We understand that. You saying 'BW is nothing special and the game itself has nothing magical, but its just cuz of us being emotionally attached' tells us that you are a fool.
I think you're right in that it did get lucky because Blizzard failed to replicate it's perfection, which they would have been able to if they actually knew entirely what they were doing when they made BW in the first place. The fact that they couldn't makes me want to say it's just hit-or-miss luck as far as the design goes.
I disagree entirely on the idea that it doesn't have "the magic" and that it isn't more wonderful than every other RTS game, or on the idea that it doesn't sparkle. You're right that pure audience numbers don't guarantee correctness, but it does mean something, what that is is up for debate but I would be one of the people who argued that it is actually so popular because it's so good.
You've got points about what actually makes a game valuable or not and you're right to say part of what that is is the experience of growing with it with other people, but I think it's more than just that, the fact that it was such an intrinsically good game made that experience all the more popular and enjoyable and long-lasting, which further allowed people to grow with it. The two seem exclusive to you but I think they've got a pretty strong correlation with one another.
If you can't see the magic in BW, I would argue that it's because it's much harder for someone to appreciate an older game, no matter how good it is, just because they have preconceived standards and expectations based on the current state of gaming they exist in. An older game you try for the first time that doesn't meet these standards and expectations immediately fails to be perceived by you as special since you're focused on what you believe to be "flaws".
TL;DR: I think you've got a point in that Starcraft being a great game isn't a 100% objective universal truth, but I think you go wrong in saying that it's 100% subjective and entirely relative as well. I definitely think there is intrinsic value in SCBW that makes it the greatest game ever made, but that's something I don't think you can convince someone of either way, they have to see it for themselves.
You can bring a horse to water but you can't force it to drink.
On October 31 2011 15:53 RedJustice wrote: These people don't understand the agony of seeing your team make it to the playoffs year and after year, and knowing they have the potential to reach the Super Bowl, and seeing them lose over and over.
ahahahahahahaha where are the CJ fans at?
I was casually reading through this thread until I get to the 3rd page then WHAM suckerpunch.
Damn you Hpig.
STX ;_;
Yeah, except STX never makes it into the Playoffs LOL! :3
You pretty much only have to reply to Rekrul's post. Did the best job of putting together all the points you ignored. I think you just approached this the wrong way. You gave evidence of why you thought BW didn't have magic, then stated it in a way that it simply doesn't have magic. You are 1 person, a girl who doesn't fully grasp what and where TL came from, or what and where BW came from. It wasn't your intent, but thats incredibly offensive. That's like reading the US constitution and shrugging no big deal, there's no genius in this. Lots of people gave sweat and blood and lives and careers to this game. Other video games have similar qualities but they don't catch the attention of an entire nation, are mentioned regularly outside of their own world, last for 10+ years etc..
Instead of saying ' magic ' doesn't exist in bw. You should have said it doesn't exist FOR YOU, or ask why everyone else sees it but you don't. I mean can you honestly look at yourself and say that you know or did enough to make a huge overarching judgement like bw doesn't have magic?
I wonder what someone like you thinks about chess. Is this game too without magic? Or does the magic only exist because of all the learning systems and memories built around it?
Edit: The best part is, its hard to understand how even after writing out your anecdotes and fond memories of Green bay you don't understand that you are exactly like the fans who only watch the superbowl to watch the superbowl. Do you honestly understand a personality like Boxer? Or you actually think there's a game that would have attracted and nurtured someone like him? White-ra? You realize there's bigger fan clubs for broodwar players than people like Brett Favre? It's not a fucking once a year spectacle like the superbowl. It's a 10+ year tradition.
On October 31 2011 20:43 SarR wrote: But to be fair to RedJustice, I understand what she is trying to say. Basically she is speaking of the emotional attachment fans have come to develop over the years as its true "magic". Its an interesting hypothesis with merit. Give her a break.
Yes, totally. But I would still disagree with her. I joined TL in late 2009 (exclusively because BW caught my interest), and from then on I was hooked. I was waking up at 5am to watch BW matches live... because I really wanted to.
Ok, I have now read through all of these comments and thought on them.
First thing-- my sex should be completely irrelevant to any discussion not involving female biology or possibly relationship blogs. Thanks.
Second thing-- I'm really not trolling, this is my opinion, and I'm trying to have a discussion about it because I want to hear what other people have to say.
Third thing (most important)--
I think on further reflection, much of my thoughts on this are based in part on how BW gets represented many times when there is talk about it to someone who does not know the game. The overwhelming impression I have received is that watching a few games of BW, or trying to play it yourself will completely change the way you think about BW-- make you love it, make you think it's the best, make you want to learn everything you can about it and be part of that community (regardless of whether or not you drop other particular games all together in favor of it). The tone I feel like I have heard is that there is no way you can not love BW once you have been exposed to it, try watching X game and you will change your mind.
I played a small amount myself-- enough to experience the difference in the amount of multitasking and unit control it requires. I am pretty bad, but I can still appreciate this challenge.
I watched the OSL finals because it seemed that it would represent some of the best play I could see that is happening now. It was exciting, and crazy, and fun to watch.
I watched VODs on my own to find out a bit more about what was going on in the game, and see some of the amazing plays like reaver drops that everyone loves (they are pretty awesome).
I appreciated it-- I think it is a good game, and better than what is out there now. I did not have this epiphany of recognizing how much I wanted to learn more about BW and play it and celebrate it.
One of the prevailing arguments has been that if BW didn't have this inherent bit of "magic" that makes people love it, how would there be such a strong scene, and so much more success for the game than any other?
What I wonder in response-- legitimately, not disrespectfully-- is that if it has that inherent magic, why is it struggling? Why aren't thousands and thousands of new fans entering the scene? Why isn't the foreign fanbase of BW growing after it gets re-exposed to the world with the release of SC2?
If your answer is just simply that they haven't really gotten exposed to BW or understand it, go be a Jehova's Witness. You can't just say that the only reason people don't believe like you do is because they don't understand it. You have to go evangelize.
I have also seen a lot of angry or hurt-- well you just don't understand, you're wrong.
Maybe I am wrong, and so are a lot of other people, but we would be stupid to believe you because you said so. I didn't spend a long time with the game, it is true. I spent long enough to say-- well I wasn't immediately blown away by it so don't think that feeling comes from the game then.
I have seen many good posts on BW, trying to convince others to really look at it and enjoy it. There are posts like that in this thread. These are positive, but mostly still have this assumption that doing x, y, and z suggestions will convert someone to feeling a certain way. I don't think it's enough, and the insistence that it is probably hurts the cause. If you care about it that much, try something new! Find a different way to help people see what you see in the game.
The discussions in various sc2 vs bw threads have pretty much done nothing. Not a lot of people are wandering over and exploring of their own free will. Most of what you get exposed to of the BW community outside of the BW forum is all the negative stuff going on.
Show people it's good-- why aren't all of the passionate BW people on TL organizing BW events and streams, and interactive things specifically designed to involve new people in learning about BW?
This has now drifted away from my original post to an extent-- but I would like to offer something more constructive than just my opinion, and also more insight into how my opinion was formed.
On October 31 2011 15:53 RedJustice wrote: These people don't understand the agony of seeing your team make it to the playoffs year and after year, and knowing they have the potential to reach the Super Bowl, and seeing them lose over and over.
ahahahahahahaha where are the CJ fans at?
I was casually reading through this thread until I get to the 3rd page then WHAM suckerpunch.
Damn you Hpig.
STX ;_;
Yeah, except STX never makes it into the Playoffs LOL! :3
Yeah except for the last three seasons in a row but OK.
BW doesn't have that magic-- that special something that makes it more wonderful than any other game, or any other RTS, or w/e. It doesn't have that sparkle. On it's own, it is just an incredibly well-made RTS that got lucky in some ways, and stuck around long enough to develop beyond what we have seen in other games. It's challenging, it's fun, it's exciting to watch and play (and frustrating).
The magic of BW (or any game for that matter) is in the experience of growing with a game for so long.
I only read until here and.. yeah well this is just so retarded. I can still remember the first time i saw starcraft. It was, uh, I I guess the first mission as terran of the campaign. CC, couple of scvs, mineral blocks. I just saw the scvs mining, a marine being produced and I instantly fell in love with the game.
What you have to realize is that the game was released in 1998(?). I had played Dune2, warcraft 1 (and 2? puh i might mix things up) and C&c and starcraft was just SO MUCH better in ever aspect.
But that's not the main reason why it was awesome. You didn't have to buy it to play it with friends. There is a multi-player only install option. How many games did that have? And the free to use battle.net, which was probably the best invention blizzard ever made. It was MADE to being played with friends.
On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote: Ok, I have now read through all of these comments and thought on them.
First thing-- my sex should be completely irrelevant to any discussion not involving female biology or possibly relationship blogs. Thanks.
Second thing-- I'm really not trolling, this is my opinion, and I'm trying to have a discussion about it because I want to hear what other people have to say.
Third thing (most important)--
I think on further reflection, much of my thoughts on this are based in part on how BW gets represented many times when there is talk about it to someone who does not know the game. The overwhelming impression I have received is that watching a few games of BW, or trying to play it yourself will completely change the way you think about BW-- make you love it, make you think it's the best, make you want to learn everything you can about it and be part of that community (regardless of whether or not you drop other particular games all together in favor of it). The tone I feel like I have heard is that there is no way you can not love BW once you have been exposed to it, try watching X game and you will change your mind.
I played a small amount myself-- enough to experience the difference in the amount of multitasking and unit control it requires. I am pretty bad, but I can still appreciate this challenge.
I watched the OSL finals because it seemed that it would represent some of the best play I could see that is happening now. It was exciting, and crazy, and fun to watch.
I watched VODs on my own to find out a bit more about what was going on in the game, and see some of the amazing plays like reaver drops that everyone loves (they are pretty awesome).
I appreciated it-- I think it is a good game, and better than what is out there now. I did not have this epiphany of recognizing how much I wanted to learn more about BW and play it and celebrate it.
One of the prevailing arguments has been that if BW didn't have this inherent bit of "magic" that makes people love it, how would there be such a strong scene, and so much more success for the game than any other?
What I wonder in response-- legitimately, not disrespectfully-- is that if it has that inherent magic, why is it struggling? Why aren't thousands and thousands of new fans entering the scene? Why isn't the foreign fanbase of BW growing after it gets re-exposed to the world with the release of SC2?
If your answer is just simply that they haven't really gotten exposed to BW or understand it, go be a Jehova's Witness. You can't just say that the only reason people don't believe like you do is because they don't understand it. You have to go evangelize.
I have also seen a lot of angry or hurt-- well you just don't understand, you're wrong.
Maybe I am wrong, and so are a lot of other people, but we would be stupid to believe you because you said so. I didn't spend a long time with the game, it is true. I spent long enough to say-- well I wasn't immediately blown away by it so don't think that feeling comes from the game then.
I have seen many good posts on BW, trying to convince others to really look at it and enjoy it. There are posts like that in this thread. These are positive, but mostly still have this assumption that doing x, y, and z suggestions will convert someone to feeling a certain way. I don't think it's enough, and the insistence that it is probably hurts the cause. If you care about it that much, try something new! Find a different way to help people see what you see in the game.
The discussions in various sc2 vs bw threads have pretty much done nothing. Not a lot of people are wandering over and exploring of their own free will. Most of what you get exposed to of the BW community outside of the BW forum is all the negative stuff going on.
Show people it's good-- why aren't all of the passionate BW people on TL organizing BW events and streams, and interactive things specifically designed to involve new people in learning about BW?
This has now drifted away from my original post to an extent-- but I would like to offer something more constructive than just my opinion, and also more insight into how my opinion was formed.
Show some 15 years old kid of today games like Enduro, Super Mario World, International Superstar Soccer, see them saying this games suck and have nothing special about it, and realize how wrong you are
On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote: Ok, I have now read through all of these comments and thought on them.
First thing-- my sex should be completely irrelevant to any discussion not involving female biology or possibly relationship blogs. Thanks.
Second thing-- I'm really not trolling, this is my opinion, and I'm trying to have a discussion about it because I want to hear what other people have to say.
Third thing (most important)--
I think on further reflection, much of my thoughts on this are based in part on how BW gets represented many times when there is talk about it to someone who does not know the game. The overwhelming impression I have received is that watching a few games of BW, or trying to play it yourself will completely change the way you think about BW-- make you love it, make you think it's the best, make you want to learn everything you can about it and be part of that community (regardless of whether or not you drop other particular games all together in favor of it). The tone I feel like I have heard is that there is no way you can not love BW once you have been exposed to it, try watching X game and you will change your mind.
I played a small amount myself-- enough to experience the difference in the amount of multitasking and unit control it requires. I am pretty bad, but I can still appreciate this challenge.
I watched the OSL finals because it seemed that it would represent some of the best play I could see that is happening now. It was exciting, and crazy, and fun to watch.
I watched VODs on my own to find out a bit more about what was going on in the game, and see some of the amazing plays like reaver drops that everyone loves (they are pretty awesome).
I appreciated it-- I think it is a good game, and better than what is out there now. I did not have this epiphany of recognizing how much I wanted to learn more about BW and play it and celebrate it.
One of the prevailing arguments has been that if BW didn't have this inherent bit of "magic" that makes people love it, how would there be such a strong scene, and so much more success for the game than any other?
What I wonder in response-- legitimately, not disrespectfully-- is that if it has that inherent magic, why is it struggling? Why aren't thousands and thousands of new fans entering the scene? Why isn't the foreign fanbase of BW growing after it gets re-exposed to the world with the release of SC2?
If your answer is just simply that they haven't really gotten exposed to BW or understand it, go be a Jehova's Witness. You can't just say that the only reason people don't believe like you do is because they don't understand it. You have to go evangelize.
I have also seen a lot of angry or hurt-- well you just don't understand, you're wrong.
Maybe I am wrong, and so are a lot of other people, but we would be stupid to believe you because you said so. I didn't spend a long time with the game, it is true. I spent long enough to say-- well I wasn't immediately blown away by it so don't think that feeling comes from the game then.
I have seen many good posts on BW, trying to convince others to really look at it and enjoy it. There are posts like that in this thread. These are positive, but mostly still have this assumption that doing x, y, and z suggestions will convert someone to feeling a certain way. I don't think it's enough, and the insistence that it is probably hurts the cause. If you care about it that much, try something new! Find a different way to help people see what you see in the game.
The discussions in various sc2 vs bw threads have pretty much done nothing. Not a lot of people are wandering over and exploring of their own free will. Most of what you get exposed to of the BW community outside of the BW forum is all the negative stuff going on.
Show people it's good-- why aren't all of the passionate BW people on TL organizing BW events and streams, and interactive things specifically designed to involve new people in learning about BW?
This has now drifted away from my original post to an extent-- but I would like to offer something more constructive than just my opinion, and also more insight into how my opinion was formed.
BW isnt designed for the masses of casual gamers, its too hard compared to cod, lol, sc2. In a sense, the very essence of BW defines its elitist fan base, so it is little surprise we behave as we do. And yeah, thats why its struggling.
I respect the OP's opinion, and what she's saying is true about a lot of sports, but to flat out say that the "magic isn't there" is quite wrong. It just might not be your cup of tea, but you can't objectify "magic". Ultimately, I think what it comes down to is: in BW, as in football/soccer and also a lot of other sports/games, it may be easy to understand the rules, but to actually play it well is a lot harder.
In football/soccer, for example, the true hardcore dedicated fans like the game because of its strategic depth, technical finesse, physical demands, and the sheer complexity that is present each and every time two teams step on the field and battle it out. Then there are just casual fans who like the game because of the crowd atmosphere in the stadium or the culture behind the game. The latter are still fans, but just for different reasons. The casual fans of football/soccer might say that there is no inherent "magic" in the game, but there is so-called "magic" in things like atmosphere, culture, the way the game is understood all around the world and can bridge cultures. I don't think it's a coincidence that most casual fans themselves have not tried to play the game but just enjoy watching others playing it on a high level, and there is nothing wrong with that. The hardcore fans and the casual fans both enjoy the game, and it actually would not be right to put them in such distinct groups, as a hardcore fan might share some perspectives with a casual fan, and vice versa, but both contribute to making the game great.
The same is/was true for BW. Before SC2 was announced, BW had hardcore fans as well as casual fans. Even back in those days you had people who would watch pro matches and feel the atmosphere and culture of the game, but not be able to get it into it themselves on a competitive level or understand the intricacies and subtleties of playing the game. A good illustration would be the iccup people as the hardcore fans and the BGH/Fastest people as more casual. With SC2 coming out, a lot of the "casuals" switched to SC2 (Korean and foreign pros who were either not doing well in BW anymore or saw greater financial opportunities in SC2 made the switch, but many of these former BW pros will tell you that BW is a better designed game).
Overall, I would say that SC2 was good for the esports scene, but the BW fans back in the day were not concerned about turning BW into an esport like many SC2 fans are now, they just played because it was fun, exciting, and a good way to make friends (and also because there was something attractive about the game that kept us coming back for more). BW took off in Korea because PC bangs were popular in the late 90s and BW was easily available to play and simple to understand, but it took a while for the esports scene to grow.
In conclusion, it's fine if the OP doesn't "get" what us hardcore BWers enjoy about the game, but we should at least acknowledge that she has tried to feel the passion and the intensity which we feel. Maybe this just shows that some people are meant to be casual fans of BW, and this is perfectly fine. Not everyone in the stadium at the World Cup is a hardcore fan, and there is nothing wrong with that.
At the end of the day, BW vs SC2 discussions are pointless. But this is exactly what Blizzard intended. They don't care about BW anymore, and they don't want SC2 fans to care about it either. All they care about is money, but as fans of esports we are above that. If we take the time to understand each other, we might find that BW and SC2 fans share a lot in common. But for some reason we are unable to express that feeling without being barraged by complaints of "BW elitism" or "SC2 fanboyism".
EDIT: I'm not saying that BW is a better game than SC2 or CoD or anything like that. Every game has it fans, both hardcore and casual. But it's wrong for a SC2 fan to tell a BW fan that "BW is dead", or "stop living in the past", or "bad graphics, bad unit pathing", whatever it may be. It's just as wrong for a BW fan to say to a SC2 fan that they are "noobs" or like the "shiny new toy" or that they "just don't understand". The trouble comes from SC2 hogging the spotlight most of the time, which leads to SC2 fans pushing their views on BW fans, and BW fans reacting by acting stuck up. These two games can coexist, only Blizzard wants to phase out BW
On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote: Show people it's good-- why aren't all of the passionate BW people on TL organizing BW events and streams, and interactive things specifically designed to involve new people in learning about BW?
On October 31 2011 15:53 RedJustice wrote: The magic of BW (or any game for that matter) is in the experience of growing with a game for so long. The game means so much to people because of the time and emotion they have invested in it-- as spectators, players, or both.
I really disagree with this. I started playing SC when it first came, but all I did was play UMS games and money maps with some friends. I had no idea of professional play and completely forgot about the game for years until I was somehow linked to the GOM averatec season 1 stuff with Tasteless and I was instantly blown away and hooked. Have you watched the english casts with Tasteless? I think that really helped give me a better understanding of the game at first.
On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote: Ok, I have now read through all of these comments and thought on them.
First thing-- my sex should be completely irrelevant to any discussion not involving female biology or possibly relationship blogs. Thanks.
Second thing-- I'm really not trolling, this is my opinion, and I'm trying to have a discussion about it because I want to hear what other people have to say.
Third thing (most important)--
I think on further reflection, much of my thoughts on this are based in part on how BW gets represented many times when there is talk about it to someone who does not know the game. The overwhelming impression I have received is that watching a few games of BW, or trying to play it yourself will completely change the way you think about BW-- make you love it, make you think it's the best, make you want to learn everything you can about it and be part of that community (regardless of whether or not you drop other particular games all together in favor of it). The tone I feel like I have heard is that there is no way you can not love BW once you have been exposed to it, try watching X game and you will change your mind.
I played a small amount myself-- enough to experience the difference in the amount of multitasking and unit control it requires. I am pretty bad, but I can still appreciate this challenge.
I watched the OSL finals because it seemed that it would represent some of the best play I could see that is happening now. It was exciting, and crazy, and fun to watch.
I watched VODs on my own to find out a bit more about what was going on in the game, and see some of the amazing plays like reaver drops that everyone loves (they are pretty awesome).
I appreciated it-- I think it is a good game, and better than what is out there now. I did not have this epiphany of recognizing how much I wanted to learn more about BW and play it and celebrate it.
One of the prevailing arguments has been that if BW didn't have this inherent bit of "magic" that makes people love it, how would there be such a strong scene, and so much more success for the game than any other?
What I wonder in response-- legitimately, not disrespectfully-- is that if it has that inherent magic, why is it struggling? Why aren't thousands and thousands of new fans entering the scene? Why isn't the foreign fanbase of BW growing after it gets re-exposed to the world with the release of SC2?
If your answer is just simply that they haven't really gotten exposed to BW or understand it, go be a Jehova's Witness. You can't just say that the only reason people don't believe like you do is because they don't understand it. You have to go evangelize.
I have also seen a lot of angry or hurt-- well you just don't understand, you're wrong.
Maybe I am wrong, and so are a lot of other people, but we would be stupid to believe you because you said so. I didn't spend a long time with the game, it is true. I spent long enough to say-- well I wasn't immediately blown away by it so don't think that feeling comes from the game then.
I have seen many good posts on BW, trying to convince others to really look at it and enjoy it. There are posts like that in this thread. These are positive, but mostly still have this assumption that doing x, y, and z suggestions will convert someone to feeling a certain way. I don't think it's enough, and the insistence that it is probably hurts the cause. If you care about it that much, try something new! Find a different way to help people see what you see in the game.
The discussions in various sc2 vs bw threads have pretty much done nothing. Not a lot of people are wandering over and exploring of their own free will. Most of what you get exposed to of the BW community outside of the BW forum is all the negative stuff going on.
Show people it's good-- why aren't all of the passionate BW people on TL organizing BW events and streams, and interactive things specifically designed to involve new people in learning about BW?
This has now drifted away from my original post to an extent-- but I would like to offer something more constructive than just my opinion, and also more insight into how my opinion was formed.
First of all thanks for being such a great troll.
I would also like to say that it's incredibly heart warming to see that people still believe in their love for bw.
I'll try to keep this post short.
It's impossible to explain why bw is such a great, rather greatest game ever made , without writing extensively. As such, it's understandable that typical arguements found on tl as to why bw is so good may not seem appealing to the unknowledgeable, as none of them can fully convey a proper explanation.
It's rather obvious why bw no longer attracts the masses: a strong lack of financial support (i.e. advertising/infrastructure), and the general ignorance of Man. The first reason is self-explanatory. The video game industry has long evolved since its inception, and can be argued to have be become a form of mass media (hopefully I'm not misusing terms). As such, being a product for the masses, video games seem to be converging in terms of what is expected of them (such as improved graphics/UI/AI, and so on). This sets social standards (at least in western society??) of what defines a game as being good or bad. It can therefore be argued that bw, from these set perspectives, is a bad game.
It is hard trying to convince people whom uphold certain prejudices/preconceptions about anything really, to perhaps entertain a different point of view (e.g. capitalists <-> communists), as they are so bound by their inherent ideas, that they are incapable of seperating themselves from those ideas, hence ignorance.
Why don't people think bw is a good game? Because they're ignorant.
Sorry if it seems rather incoherent, and of course the conclusion seems abrupt, but I don't want to have a huge post. Essentially, the majority of ppl have come to think games need x,y to be good, and bw does not fit these criterias, so ppl ignorantly dismiss bw because they are incapable of adopting a different approach to what makes a good game.
The only hope we have is to educate others on why bw is so good, but to truly appreciate bw, one must actually play it extensively.
Just as an edit: Not all opinions are good. Though people should be entitled to their opinions, uneducated opinions are worthless when approaching a specific topic, which already has its own set of "experts".
Also assume my definition of "best game" to be what bw is lol, but of course this is in the realm of rts.
I know using an assumption of what constitutes human nature (ignorance) is rather dangerous and perhaps irrelevant to a proper arguement, but I'll live with that.
On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote: One of the prevailing arguments has been that if BW didn't have this inherent bit of "magic" that makes people love it, how would there be such a strong scene, and so much more success for the game than any other?
What I wonder in response-- legitimately, not disrespectfully-- is that if it has that inherent magic, why is it struggling? Why aren't thousands and thousands of new fans entering the scene? Why isn't the foreign fanbase of BW growing after it gets re-exposed to the world with the release of SC2?
If your answer is just simply that they haven't really gotten exposed to BW or understand it, go be a Jehova's Witness. You can't just say that the only reason people don't believe like you do is because they don't understand it. You have to go evangelize.
It's really not that easy to expose the newer generation to the greatness of BW. Most of them have been conditioned to want the best new graphics, and they can't get past BW's aged appearance. I could try to go out and explain why BW is so awesome (and IMO better than SC2) but they're not gonna believe me.
It seems that car analogies are popular, so I will use one. For the newer generation, It's all about the shiny new car, even if the specs under the hood are not as good as the old model. Maybe I can convince them to try out the old model, and they'll drive it around the block a couple times, but they'll just dismiss it as a bumpy ride, nothing special. They'll attribute my enthusiasm to things like nostalgia, emotional attachment, etc
Maybe there is some truth to the nostalgia aspect, but it's not like I had the same enthusiasm for every other game that came around. There was something about Brood War that drew me to it. Whatever that something is, that's Magic.
If we could so easily define what Magic is, then we'd be able to recreate it and emulate the result with any other great game. But the fact is that we cannot define it, and that's why it's called Magic.
Hmm, I played broodwar much more than I have played any other game. I enjoyed the competition of it more than I have from any other game. SC2 doesn't even come close. This isn't because of something emotional or sentimental, it's because I thought the game was way better.
On October 31 2011 23:52 Schplyok wrote: Broodwar isn't broken. A broken game is one that has a dominant strategy. When a game has a dominant strategy it degenerates - no one uses any other strategies besides the dominant one. Sometimes when the game is complex enough (all RTS games basically) it may take a very long time to discover a dominant strategy. An you can totally have fun with a broken game until you find a dominant strategy.
Remember AOE2? Fun, right? Well, it's broken. Everyone who plays it competitively uses huns. Imagine Broodwar big in Korea and everyone playing zerg. Sounds stupid.
That's why Broodwar is big and other games aren't. I don't think there are any RTS games besides Broodwar that are proven not broken, yet.
The way you frame it, Broodwar isn't *proven* to not be broken. It's possible the dominant strategies just haven't been discovered yet. :D
if there's no "magic" in bw then show me which other game spontaneously generated its own self-sustaining league spanning a decade, has 2 TV channels dedicated to its broadcast, and 10 years after release IS STILL on the shelves at Wal-mart? It's quite "magical" that a temporal commodity like a video game can have that kind of vitality, creating "E-sports" as we know it. The "magic" of bw is real enough that Blizzard was able to generate a worldwide following and their own (fake) version called "ESPORTS," just by milking the old source. Sadly, the way things work is that there can only be one starcraft, just like it's always either chess or checkers, football or soccer, baseball or cricket. So yeah, broodwar's gonna die, and SC2 fans everywhere can rejoice. SC2's got a certain similarity to what made bw great, but it's real pulling power is better graphics, mass marketing, more casual friendly gameplay. SC2, not bw, is the game that's just like all the rest. But when the next big thing comes out with better graphics and even more noob-friendly gameplay guess what? The masses of UMS noobs who currently inflate SC2's popularity will move on like the sheep they are. Notice that all the top SC2 players are drawn from the hardcore broodwar and wc3 communities- at its core the pro SC2 community is just an artificial transplantation of the broodwar and wc3 communties. If there was no SC1 to begin with and SC2 was released today, it wouldn't have any more traction than the latest CoD release. The life it lives is borrowed, or rather, stolen, from its predecessor.
Ok, I have now read through all of these comments and thought on them.
First thing-- my sex should be completely irrelevant to any discussion not involving female biology or possibly relationship blogs. Thanks.
Second thing-- I'm really not trolling, this is my opinion, and I'm trying to have a discussion about it because I want to hear what other people have to say.
Third thing (most important)--
I think on further reflection, much of my thoughts on this are based in part on how BW gets represented many times when there is talk about it to someone who does not know the game. The overwhelming impression I have received is that watching a few games of BW, or trying to play it yourself will completely change the way you think about BW-- make you love it, make you think it's the best, make you want to learn everything you can about it and be part of that community (regardless of whether or not you drop other particular games all together in favor of it). The tone I feel like I have heard is that there is no way you can not love BW once you have been exposed to it, try watching X game and you will change your mind.
I played a small amount myself-- enough to experience the difference in the amount of multitasking and unit control it requires. I am pretty bad, but I can still appreciate this challenge.
I watched the OSL finals because it seemed that it would represent some of the best play I could see that is happening now. It was exciting, and crazy, and fun to watch.
I watched VODs on my own to find out a bit more about what was going on in the game, and see some of the amazing plays like reaver drops that everyone loves (they are pretty awesome).
I appreciated it-- I think it is a good game, and better than what is out there now. I did not have this epiphany of recognizing how much I wanted to learn more about BW and play it and celebrate it.
One of the prevailing arguments has been that if BW didn't have this inherent bit of "magic" that makes people love it, how would there be such a strong scene, and so much more success for the game than any other?
What I wonder in response-- legitimately, not disrespectfully-- is that if it has that inherent magic, why is it struggling? Why aren't thousands and thousands of new fans entering the scene? Why isn't the foreign fanbase of BW growing after it gets re-exposed to the world with the release of SC2?
If your answer is just simply that they haven't really gotten exposed to BW or understand it, go be a Jehova's Witness. You can't just say that the only reason people don't believe like you do is because they don't understand it. You have to go evangelize.
I have also seen a lot of angry or hurt-- well you just don't understand, you're wrong.
Maybe I am wrong, and so are a lot of other people, but we would be stupid to believe you because you said so. I didn't spend a long time with the game, it is true. I spent long enough to say-- well I wasn't immediately blown away by it so don't think that feeling comes from the game then.
I have seen many good posts on BW, trying to convince others to really look at it and enjoy it. There are posts like that in this thread. These are positive, but mostly still have this assumption that doing x, y, and z suggestions will convert someone to feeling a certain way. I don't think it's enough, and the insistence that it is probably hurts the cause. If you care about it that much, try something new! Find a different way to help people see what you see in the game.
The discussions in various sc2 vs bw threads have pretty much done nothing. Not a lot of people are wandering over and exploring of their own free will. Most of what you get exposed to of the BW community outside of the BW forum is all the negative stuff going on.
Show people it's good-- why aren't all of the passionate BW people on TL organizing BW events and streams, and interactive things specifically designed to involve new people in learning about BW?
This has now drifted away from my original post to an extent-- but I would like to offer something more constructive than just my opinion, and also more insight into how my opinion was formed.
Try watching TvZ games. TvZ, for some reason, has arguably the most of the "magic" that makes BW so great. Its hard to describe.. Sure, PvT is fun too, but when you compare it to the top TvZ games,.. tvz just has something that triggers absolute joy when watching it.
god, people could you stop with the sexism and your fucking stupid use of the word "troll"
@OP your point in your last post seems to be "if its such a great game, why isnt it more popular" Since when does being good mean accessible? what does popularity say about how good it is? How many kids would rather listen to Lady Gaga than to Led Zeppelin. Watching a few BW games and playing some doesnt mean youre gonna fall in love. BW isnt for everyone, that says nothing about its quality as a game, and also playing a few games doesnt mean you understand anything about the game. Have you played iccup? whats your rank? if its below d+ than you obviously dont know the slightest bit about the game. (and then theres c-,c,c+,b-,b,b+,a-,a - all these ranks have a very significant difference in how good these people are at the game, whereas for example in SC2 you could just stuff all these people into the "masters" category) I dont understand whats great about Picassos paintings... that doesnt mean that people who do love his work only do so because of their personal experience and because of their subjective biased perspective... its just that these people know more about art, and they know what is so brilliant about it, I don't. Just cause Ive looked at some paintings of his and dont feel the "magic" doesnt mean it isn't there.
I actually agree with a good amount of your original post... i mean the whole experience thing of course adds a LOT to your love of the game, but it isnt the original cause for all of it.
On November 01 2011 03:49 Corinthos wrote: You will find the magic after meeting the people who have BW passion as well.
well that statement just supports what the OP is saying
On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote: One of the prevailing arguments has been that if BW didn't have this inherent bit of "magic" that makes people love it, how would there be such a strong scene, and so much more success for the game than any other?
What I wonder in response-- legitimately, not disrespectfully-- is that if it has that inherent magic, why is it struggling? Why aren't thousands and thousands of new fans entering the scene? Why isn't the foreign fanbase of BW growing after it gets re-exposed to the world with the release of SC2?
On page 6, I offered the opinion that the quality of BW that makes people so passionate about it is its depth when subjected to extended study and practice. I think this is why people like you and I don't find ourselves getting sucked in by the game.
I've probably made a similar effort to you to expose myself to it. I own a copy, I've played through the campaign, and have watched some VODs, but playing the game is just not as satisfying an experience to me in a basic, visceral sense as playing Starcraft 2. What I HAVEN'T done is invested the time or effort to explore the subtlety of the game that's so dear to the BW crowd.
The barrier to entry for Brood War is high. The minimum skill level necessary to win even one game on any of the ladders out there takes a long time to achieve. Appreciating the strategic complexity of the game even as a viewer takes watching a lot of games and learning something about how the ways players play today have developed. Since BW doesn't have a strong following outside of Korea or any major western tournament presence, a potential viewer has to wade through a lot of Korean-language content to get a complete picture of the current state of the game (though some English-language commentary is out there.) Also, the game is old enough that it's possible to run into issues even getting it running on a PC with a recent version of Windows (not to mention that the Mac version won't run under the latest Mac OS, and Blizzard has announced that it's officially ended support for that version of the product.)
What this means is that a new player, or even viewer, who wants to learn the game has a lot of hurdles to overcome before they can ever get far enough into it to start to experience that depth that makes the BW crowd passionate about their game.
RedJustice, I don't know that you can judge the question of BW's "magic" without putting in an extraordinary amount of time and effort. The question is, is it worth it to you to do that? For me, the answer was, well, not really. I accept that I'll never be part of the BW crowd because I just don't wish to put in that time or effort to get to the point where I can access the complexity that they love about it. But, precisely because of how passionate even those who came to the game ten years after its release are, I am willing to accept at face value that the magic is there, deeper than I'm prepared to look for it.
I thought this was going to be a blog on how awesome BW is
This game is fun, in fact, more fun then a lot of games I played To flat out say, BW is good not because the game itself is amazing just strike me as ignorance The other factors are there sure, but that is the same for every game
I love the fact that Rekrul calls it SC and not BW.
Whenever I would play games with my friends we would always be like "Yoyoyoyyo scscsc?" Good times. Had like 6 of us who would constantly play games with each other. Shit was so good.......that was only like 2 years ago too =/ A lot of them moved on to sc2 or stopped playing SC in general. Sad times.
On November 01 2011 02:57 AhhBoxxah wrote: Why don't people think bw is a good game? Because they're ignorant.
Oh, please. It's perfectly valid for someone to feel, for whatever reason, that BW isn't much fun, or that they don't want to get far enough into it to see its strong points. As for "greatest game ever made," BW isn't even in the running. Try something like chess or go, both of which have been played in pretty much their current state for centuries.
Even if you limit that to computer games, where it is certainly in the running, you're going to have to go up against Pac-Man, Quake, Tetris, and Super Mario Brothers.
Edit: I don't say this to say bad things about BW as a game, just to point out that painting people who aren't engaged by it as idiots isn't a way to win anyone over. Of course, if you just want to call those people idiots, knock yourself out, I guess!
On November 01 2011 03:56 7mk wrote: god, people could you stop with the sexism and your fucking stupid use of the word "troll"
@OP your point in your last post seems to be "if its such a great game, why isnt it more popular" Since when does being good mean accessible? what does popularity say about how good it is? How many kids would rather listen to Lady Gaga than to Led Zeppelin. Watching a few BW games and playing some doesnt mean youre gonna fall in love. BW isnt for everyone, that says nothing about its quality as a game, and also playing a few games doesnt mean you understand anything about the game. Have you played iccup? whats your rank? if its below d+ than you obviously dont know the slightest bit about the game. (and then theres c-,c,c+,b-,b,b+,a-,a - all these ranks have a very significant difference in how good these people are at the game, whereas for example in SC2 you could just stuff all these people into the "masters" category) I dont understand whats great about Picassos paintings... that doesnt mean that people who do love his work only do so because of their personal experience and because of their subjective biased perspective... its just that these people know more about art, and they know what is so brilliant about it, I don't. Just cause Ive looked at some paintings of his and dont feel the "magic" doesnt mean it isn't there.
I actually agree with a good amount of your original post... i mean the whole experience thing of course adds a LOT to your love of the game, but it isnt the original cause for all of it.
On November 01 2011 03:49 Corinthos wrote: You will find the magic after meeting the people who have BW passion as well.
well that statement just supports what the OP is saying
:D I should of expanded on it, but I think I made it out wrong as well. What I meant is there is magic in the game and that attract's us to it. It's something special and when you meet other's who share this it reinforces it. => It's because of the game, and we are drawn to it first.
On November 01 2011 02:28 BroodWarHD wrote: BW isnt designed for the masses of casual gamers, its too hard compared to cod, lol, sc2. In a sense, the very essence of BW defines its elitist fan base, so it is little surprise we behave as we do. And yeah, thats why its struggling.
SC2, while being marginally more casual-friendly than BW, is remarkably unfriendly to casual players, for many of the same reasons as BW. The vast majority of people I know personally who own the game have stopped playing because they realized the learning curve was too steep for them and they didn't like being shown how poor they were at the game.
On November 01 2011 02:57 AhhBoxxah wrote: Why don't people think bw is a good game? Because they're ignorant.
Oh, please. It's perfectly valid for someone to feel, for whatever reason, that BW isn't much fun, or that they don't want to get far enough into it to see its strong points. As for "greatest game ever made," BW isn't even in the running. Try something like chess or go, both of which have been played in pretty much their current state for centuries.
Even if you limit that to computer games, where it is certainly in the running, you're going to have to go up against Pac-Man, Quake, Tetris, and Super Mario Brothers.
Edit: I don't say this to say bad things about BW as a game, just to point out that painting people who aren't engaged by it as idiots isn't a way to win anyone over. Of course, if you just want to call those people idiots, knock yourself out, I guess!
Ummm I think you're wrong lol.
It might not win the "best game ever" award, but it gets pretty freaking close. Ex:
In 2005 IGN placed it at #7 of all time. Number fucking 7. Hands down SC is the best RTS ever created. There's no game that even comes remotely close. As a game outright it's pretty good too.
Even if you limit that to computer games, where it is certainly in the running, you're going to have to go up against Pac-Man, Quake, Tetris, and Super Mario Brothers.
Ummm I think you're wrong lol.
It might not win the "best game ever" award, but it gets pretty freaking close. Ex:
On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote: What I wonder in response-- legitimately, not disrespectfully-- is that if it has that inherent magic, why is it struggling? Why aren't thousands and thousands of new fans entering the scene? Why isn't the foreign fanbase of BW growing after it gets re-exposed to the world with the release of SC2?
Because all the money's in SC2 (at least in the foreign scene), and BW is far less accessible to casual fans.
With the game's release, the number of SC2 players dwarfed the BW player pool, and the new players naturally had more interest in the game they played than in its predecessor. Sponsors are already almost solely interested in spending money on new games (which can help them sell hardware), and Blizzard is now actively supporting competitive SC2, so that's where the money goes. And where the money goes, the players follow (ask any ex-BW player which game they'd prefer if money was no object). So the foreign competitive BW scene, which was pretty accessible to casual fans, nearly disappeared when SC2 tournaments started showing up. Not just the players, but the top casters also found they could actually make a living with SC2.
The main source of an ESPORT's viewership is the game's players, and BW is not exactly a newb-friendly game. And without English commentary, Korean BW is very difficult to get into (the lack of foreign players to follow doesn't help either). It's possible for SC2 fans to get into BW, but it takes some EffOrt. Threads like this will go a long way towards bringing in new blood, as would more high-quality English commentary (afaik it's mostly just Sayle, but I don't know if he does Korean pro games). If Day[9] started doing BW dailies for a few weeks, there would be a huge boom.
Overall I think the BW fanbase will grow steadily until the Korean scene dies. If it does die, I have no idea what will happen, but I'm not optimistic. There's simply too little money in the foreign BW scene to sustain it, when players could be making so much more with SC2. =/
On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote: What I wonder in response-- legitimately, not disrespectfully-- is that if it has that inherent magic, why is it struggling? Why aren't thousands and thousands of new fans entering the scene? Why isn't the foreign fanbase of BW growing after it gets re-exposed to the world with the release of SC2?
Because all the money's in SC2 (at least in the foreign scene), and BW is far less accessible to casual fans.
With the game's release, the number of SC2 players dwarfed the BW player pool, and the new players naturally had more interest in the game they played than in its predecessor. Sponsors are already almost solely interested in spending money on new games (which can help them sell hardware), and Blizzard is now actively supporting competitive SC2, so that's where the money goes. And where the money goes, the players follow (ask any ex-BW player which game they'd prefer if money was no object). So the foreign competitive BW scene, which was pretty accessible to casual fans, nearly disappeared when SC2 tournaments started showing up. Not just the players, but the top casters also found they could actually make a living with SC2.
The main source of an ESPORT's viewership is the game's players, and BW is not exactly a newb-friendly game. And without English commentary, Korean BW is very difficult to get into (the lack of foreign players to follow doesn't help either). It's possible for SC2 fans to get into BW, but it takes some EffOrt. Threads like this will go a long way towards bringing in new blood, as would more high-quality English commentary (afaik it's mostly just Sayle, but I don't know if he does Korean pro games). If Day[9] started doing BW dailies for a few weeks, there would be a huge boom.
Overall I think the BW fanbase will grow steadily until the Korean scene dies. If it does die, I have no idea what will happen, but I'm not optimistic. There's simply too little money in the foreign BW scene to sustain it, when players could be making so much more with SC2. =/
Idra and Artosis come to mind. Idra just seemed Idra about it and said he prefers sc2. Artosis on the other hand always felt like he was forcing sc2 over SC, but again that's just how I felt on his actions.
On November 01 2011 02:57 AhhBoxxah wrote: Why don't people think bw is a good game? Because they're ignorant.
Oh, please. It's perfectly valid for someone to feel, for whatever reason, that BW isn't much fun, or that they don't want to get far enough into it to see its strong points. As for "greatest game ever made," BW isn't even in the running. Try something like chess or go, both of which have been played in pretty much their current state for centuries.
Even if you limit that to computer games, where it is certainly in the running, you're going to have to go up against Pac-Man, Quake, Tetris, and Super Mario Brothers.
Edit: I don't say this to say bad things about BW as a game, just to point out that painting people who aren't engaged by it as idiots isn't a way to win anyone over. Of course, if you just want to call those people idiots, knock yourself out, I guess!
ignorant =/= idiot.
I specified that I'm talking about RTS games. I also specified that what makes a good game (criteria), would be what makes BW the best game. Though this seems rather vague, I'm too lazy to define something much more concrete. This is to avoid pointless subjective discussion where someone argues "best" to be defined by something else (e.g. A "good" game must be hard v.s. a "good" game must be easy).
BW is the best game I've ever played even before I got into the competitive/korean scene or witnessed the huge crowds during events. I'd say its pretty magical just as a game itself.
On November 01 2011 03:56 7mk wrote: god, people could you stop with the sexism and your fucking stupid use of the word "troll"
@OP your point in your last post seems to be "if its such a great game, why isnt it more popular" Since when does being good mean accessible? what does popularity say about how good it is? How many kids would rather listen to Lady Gaga than to Led Zeppelin. Watching a few BW games and playing some doesnt mean youre gonna fall in love. BW isnt for everyone, that says nothing about its quality as a game, and also playing a few games doesnt mean you understand anything about the game. Have you played iccup? whats your rank? if its below d+ than you obviously dont know the slightest bit about the game. (and then theres c-,c,c+,b-,b,b+,a-,a - all these ranks have a very significant difference in how good these people are at the game, whereas for example in SC2 you could just stuff all these people into the "masters" category) I dont understand whats great about Picassos paintings... that doesnt mean that people who do love his work only do so because of their personal experience and because of their subjective biased perspective... its just that these people know more about art, and they know what is so brilliant about it, I don't. Just cause Ive looked at some paintings of his and dont feel the "magic" doesnt mean it isn't there.
I actually agree with a good amount of your original post... i mean the whole experience thing of course adds a LOT to your love of the game, but it isnt the original cause for all of it.
On November 01 2011 03:49 Corinthos wrote: You will find the magic after meeting the people who have BW passion as well.
well that statement just supports what the OP is saying
:D I should of expanded on it, but I think I made it out wrong as well. What I meant is there is magic in the game and that attract's us to it. It's something special and when you meet other's who share this it reinforces it. => It's because of the game, and we are drawn to it first.
i see =)
oh yeah sonuvbobs post reminds me that theres one thing i forgot I wanted to say, which is that foreign brood war is dead (for the reasons sonuvbob mentioend)... of course if you look at a game and its scene is dead that makes it less attractive. I got into brood war in 2008, this was a much better time to get into it compared to now, Tasteless was the sickest caster in the world back then and there was a good amount of GOM videos available in english and also a good amount of lesser but still entertaining casters from sc2gg. Day9 started happening, TSL happened twice.. this made it all much easier to get into, rather than immediately starting by watching korean casts, now it's all switched to sc2, the players, the tournaments, the youtube casters (nukethestars being a rare exception). Now all thats left is korean BW with korean casters, and even that is dying.
The emotion and connection the fans have with BW is precisely what makes the "magic" and makes it special. It's a lot like college athletics in that way, the players aren't paid much and a lot of what they do is because of passion, it's a lot of "care" for not a lot of return.
I didn't believe it was possible to disagree with a post this much, but then I read your blog. I am a huge football fan myself but your blog honestly feels like someone who has never watched the game saying the exact same thing about the NFL, it's close minded and irresponsible.
You tried it and didn't enjoy it, why try to generalize that to some objective theory on "magic" in games? You feel no emotional connection to BW, other people do. That's basically all you've said. Nothing wrong with not liking it, but why must you theorize on why others like it? It is irritating, the same way people telling you that "you don't like BW for x reason" is probably irritating to you and maybe what prompted this blog to begin with.
On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote: What I wonder in response-- legitimately, not disrespectfully-- is that if it has that inherent magic, why is it struggling? Why aren't thousands and thousands of new fans entering the scene? Why isn't the foreign fanbase of BW growing after it gets re-exposed to the world with the release of SC2?
Because all the money's in SC2 (at least in the foreign scene), and BW is far less accessible to casual fans.
With the game's release, the number of SC2 players dwarfed the BW player pool, and the new players naturally had more interest in the game they played than in its predecessor. Sponsors are already almost solely interested in spending money on new games (which can help them sell hardware), and Blizzard is now actively supporting competitive SC2, so that's where the money goes. And where the money goes, the players follow (ask any ex-BW player which game they'd prefer if money was no object). So the foreign competitive BW scene, which was pretty accessible to casual fans, nearly disappeared when SC2 tournaments started showing up. Not just the players, but the top casters also found they could actually make a living with SC2.
The main source of an ESPORT's viewership is the game's players, and BW is not exactly a newb-friendly game. And without English commentary, Korean BW is very difficult to get into (the lack of foreign players to follow doesn't help either). It's possible for SC2 fans to get into BW, but it takes some EffOrt. Threads like this will go a long way towards bringing in new blood, as would more high-quality English commentary (afaik it's mostly just Sayle, but I don't know if he does Korean pro games). If Day[9] started doing BW dailies for a few weeks, there would be a huge boom.
Overall I think the BW fanbase will grow steadily until the Korean scene dies. If it does die, I have no idea what will happen, but I'm not optimistic. There's simply too little money in the foreign BW scene to sustain it, when players could be making so much more with SC2. =/
You have a point, the main reason why bw is so innacessible is that its scene is in korea, with korean commentators and players, at korean time. Nevertheless, I would like to point out (I'm thinking about blogging something about it) that the foreign bw scene is not as dead as a lot of people make it sound, and it's in fact having a kind of revival, in my eyes at least.
And to answer Sayle has said he'll probably commentate PL this year at night CET, I'm hopeful it can create interest, as Sayle has managed to attract pretty big numbers before (he even got 1800 people max for a fun tourney while there wasn't big sc2 around, so there is definitely potential).
And yeah ideally Day9 would do one or two bw daylies, but I've more or less given up a long time ago.
Too be able to watch BW and really understand what is going on is a huge time commitment in itself. It takes an intimate knowledge of the game, experience with the builds being used, and familiarity with the maps.
BW is a game that the more you watch it, the better it becomes. For me, that is where the magic is. If I can still fall out of my chair because I am so tense due to some crazy tech switch, bait, or mind fuck, after watching BW for 7 years, there is definitely something magical.
I honestly can't think of anything that rewards experience and knowledge to the level BW does. Yes I enjoy watching hockey more since I know the players, their stats, and most of the plays that they are making, but BW is on a whole other level. Without knowing the timings, counters, and builds, a lot of the strategic depth and skill is completely lost. The mechanical demands of BW are also much greater then SC2, and just watching Best macro can be chill inducing.
On November 01 2011 04:58 Hot_Bid wrote: The emotion and connection the fans have with BW is precisely what makes the "magic" and makes it special. It's a lot like college athletics in that way, the players aren't paid much and a lot of what they do is because of passion, it's a lot of "care" for not a lot of return.
I didn't believe it was possible to disagree with a post this much, but then I read your blog. I am a huge football fan myself but your blog honestly feels like someone who has never watched the game saying the exact same thing about the NFL, it's close minded and irresponsible.
The last sentence is unclear to me. Watched which game wut?
On November 01 2011 04:58 Hot_Bid wrote: The emotion and connection the fans have with BW is precisely what makes the "magic" and makes it special. It's a lot like college athletics in that way, the players aren't paid much and a lot of what they do is because of passion, it's a lot of "care" for not a lot of return.
I didn't believe it was possible to disagree with a post this much, but then I read your blog. I am a huge football fan myself but your blog honestly feels like someone who has never watched the game saying the exact same thing about the NFL, it's close minded and irresponsible.
On November 01 2011 04:58 Hot_Bid wrote: The emotion and connection the fans have with BW is precisely what makes the "magic" and makes it special. It's a lot like college athletics in that way, the players aren't paid much and a lot of what they do is because of passion, it's a lot of "care" for not a lot of return.
I didn't believe it was possible to disagree with a post this much, but then I read your blog. I am a huge football fan myself but your blog honestly feels like someone who has never watched the game saying the exact same thing about the NFL, it's close minded and irresponsible.
If your answer is just simply that they haven't really gotten exposed to BW or understand it
It's pretty much this. If you actually understand BW, take the time to read those 'SC2 v BW' threads, you quickly come to the realization that many 'sc2 players' have no fucking clue when they comment about BW.
I'm going to abuse the hell out of my HTML rights to lay this out clearly:
On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote:
I think on further reflection, much of my thoughts on this are based in part on how BW gets represented many times when there is talk about it to someone who does not know the game. The overwhelming impression I have received is that watching a few games of BW, or trying to play it yourself will completely change the way you think about BW-- make you love it, make you think it's the best, make you want to learn everything you can about it and be part of that community (regardless of whether or not you drop other particular games all together in favor of it). The tone I feel like I have heard is that there is no way you can not love BW once you have been exposed to it, try watching X game and you will change your mind.
The BW Elitist's "Overzealous Claim"
Ok, we have some serious miscommunication here. I think the crux of the issue is that those who apparently "get" BW are terrible at conveying their stance to the uninitiated.
For example, let's revisit that first quote. RedJustice wrote:
"The tone I feel like I have heard is that there is no way you can not love BW once you have been exposed to it, try watching X game and you will change your mind."
It's true. I see people speak like this all the time, and while I shrug it off in casual conversations, it needs to be made clear that this is probably the worst approach you can take if your aim is to introduce someone to Brood War. I've always found these types of claims overzealous. They scream of what amounts to fanboyism.
You know... that whole:
"Just watch Flash play and you'll know why BW is so much better than everything ever!!!"
This is silly and not how one should seriously go about introducing someone to Brood War.
Let me take the time to properly recommend this fine game to you.
Before I do so, we'll first look at the language behind what people say when they suggest the game. The suggestion to do X Y and Z in order to "love BW" needs some caveats.
The "overzealous claim" is better phrased this way:
"Doing X Y and Z will get you to love BW if and only if certain assumptions are made."
These assumptions are:
There are certain values that comprise the "love" that must be deemed valid
X Y and Z are proper ways to convey why BW upholds these values
A practical example of this, based on my stance on the matter follows:
Why You May Come To Love BW
Here's my personal reasoning:
If you highly value activities that (i) require, (ii) demonstrate and (iii) measure skill in a competitive way, then
By engaging in (i) learning the game and (ii) exploring its depth and breadth of skill, you will reasonably understand why BW is one of the, if not best, examples of the aforementioned values.
Now, you've already had some exposure, as you outline here:
On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote:
I played a small amount myself-- enough to experience the difference in the amount of multitasking and unit control it requires. I am pretty bad, but I can still appreciate this challenge.
I watched the OSL finals because it seemed that it would represent some of the best play I could see that is happening now. It was exciting, and crazy, and fun to watch.
I watched VODs on my own to find out a bit more about what was going on in the game, and see some of the amazing plays like reaver drops that everyone loves (they are pretty awesome).
I appreciated it-- I think it is a good game, and better than what is out there now. I did not have this epiphany of recognizing how much I wanted to learn more about BW and play it and celebrate it.
It seems as though you have engaged in both 2(i) and 2(ii) to some extent.
However, I'd contend one of either two things occured:
You didn't engage in learning the game or exploring the depths properly, or
You do not highly value the tenets of point 1.
I'll address each point here individually:
If you feel you didn't engage in learning the game or exploring the depths properly
I'd suggest you find a BW player of about C rank or up and ask them to teach you the game.
Now, I do understand that it's a huge undertaking to develop a strong understanding of the game. I can tell you from experience that it took about a year for me to truly start to appreciate the existence of fine intricacies in the game, and I fully admit that I know nothing relative to a better player.
So... in the event you don't want to invest this time, I'd suggest watching games and hearing what a skilled player has to say about what happened.
...And by skilled player, I do not mean an English caster. I love em, and they made the foreign scene accessible to many during the years prior to SC2's release, but anyone who's been around will tell you that most English casters had very limited knowledge of the game. (i.e. Klazart and the "Bisu Build," lmao)
If you can't get a hold of skilled player, watch VODs or live games together. Barring that, maybe read some of the analysis posted in the BW news here on TL. Our battle reports are often written by players who have a good grasp on the game. Anything written by Kiante* and mustaju in the last 2 or 3 weeks of the most recent Proleague season was pretty spot on. Also check out KwarK's analysis of OSL games, he is often unforgivingly critical of pros. It's a good thing.
*Careful with Kiante... his writing could... uh... use improvement at times.
If you feel you don't value the tenets of point 1
That is to say: you don't highly value activities that require, demonstrate and measure skill in a competitive way, then you probably won't enjoy BW. Simple as that.
The fanfare, the hype, the leagues and fanboy/girlism, all of it, in my opinion, exists on a necessary foundation of a sufficiently complex and deep game. You need to be able to appreciate this greatly to greatly appreciate BW itself.
Now that I've gone beyond the "OMG Watch this game and you'll know" recommendation.
I'll now address your main objection as to why you doubt the "magic":
The RedJustice Objection: If BW is so great, why isn't it incredibly popular?
On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote:
One of the prevailing arguments has been that if BW didn't have this inherent bit of "magic" that makes people love it, how would there be such a strong scene, and so much more success for the game than any other?
What I wonder in response-- legitimately, not disrespectfully-- is that if it has that inherent magic, why is it struggling? Why aren't thousands and thousands of new fans entering the scene? Why isn't the foreign fanbase of BW growing after it gets re-exposed to the world with the release of SC2?
First thing's first:
BW's success in popularity is a manifestation of love for the game, not the reasoning behind it.
The truth is, just because we have good reason to love the game, does not mean everyone will buy into those reasons.
If you look at the video game industry, competitive and challenging games are, on the whole, in a decline. There has been a steep rise in cheap, simple and "fun" casual games. People who enjoy these games pay no mind to the competitive nature and skill required.
The truth is, it's actually not very common for people to enjoy the details of the skill required of any game or sport. There may be a core of "enthusiasts" that are well versed in the intricacies of any given activity, but I'd argue that the majority of the fanbase for these activities have only a cursory understanding.
Most of my friends and family who watch Hockey with me have no idea what "a trap" is, but they thoroughly enjoy the atmosphere and fanfare surrounding team rivalries and watching someone use a stick of wood to slap a puck into a net.
However, Hockey would not have thrived and developed this atmosphere, this fanfare, this storied history, without a solid foundation of a truly deep and competitively rich activity. This can be said for any popular sport or competitive activity.
Brood War has this foundation, but whether or not it has the fanbase on top is a matter of a whole host of other factors.
You contend that BW is "struggling," and while that may be an overstatement, the reasoning behind this is a complex issue. Chief among the reasons for this struggle just so happens to lie in the release of what's essentially a new version of the game. This release not only directly competes with it for attention, but has resulted in a host of legal issues with the broadcasting of the game itself. Add in the fact that the newer game is more accessible to new players (it's easier to pick up and play), makes for just a few of many "blows" to the BW scene.
These blows are not inherent to the game, they're complex matters of cultural adoption.
You can devise an activity that compellingly and interestingly measures human skill, but how that activity is disseminated has nothing to do with the activity itself.
In short, many of us love the game for its sheer merits, and the fanbase built upon it gives it a further dimension that we feel is warranted, deserved and incredibly engaging.
That being said, the fanbase, its popularity, and the health of the scene is based on more factors than simply how good (read: competitively deep) the game is.
To object to the game's inherent merits based on the health of the scene is to be blind to the complexity of the process of what makes something popular.
If that doesn't answer your questions and give you perspective on the matter, I don't know what will
I watched the whole video just to listen to the music, so amazing. Boss music sucks and they should have put in something different for the final boss but that game definitely has "the magic" :D
On October 31 2011 20:19 nitdkim wrote: You've obviously never obtained an instant "gg" with a Godly reaver harass and seeing your opponent's reaction from either across the room or the internet. The magic in BW lives in each unit and the potential they all have (except the stupid scout, unless you're Kal on Colosseum).
I've personally instantly gg'd many a time to fucking hellions. Not sure if that was what you meant though lol
On November 01 2011 05:59 HawaiianPig wrote in fancy HTML and shit: So... in the event you don't want to invest this time, I'd suggest watching games and hearing what a skilled player has to say about what happened.
...And by skilled player, I do not mean an English caster. I love em, and they made the foreign scene accessible to many during the years prior to SC2's release, but anyone who's been around will tell you that most English casters had very limited knowledge of the game. (i.e. Klazart and the "Bisu Build," lmao)
If you can't get a hold of skilled player, watch VODs or live games together. Barring that, maybe read some of the analysis posted in the BW news here on TL.
I imagine some of the BW Day[9] Dailies would be perfect for this.
HawaiianPig I am in love with you. Wherever it is you live in Canada, I will come find you.
I can't count how many times I've read an uninformed non-competitive gamer's opinions of a competitive game on competitive gaming websites. It's very frustrating. If you aren't a competitive gamer, then, while you are allowed your opinion, please be aware that while it is subjective, its validity is not.
(of course, she may very well be a competitive gamer, just not having properly delved into BW.)
On November 01 2011 04:19 SonuvBob wrote: The main source of an ESPORT's viewership is the game's players, and BW is not exactly a newb-friendly game. And without English commentary, Korean BW is very difficult to get into (the lack of foreign players to follow doesn't help either). It's possible for SC2 fans to get into BW, but it takes some EffOrt. Threads like this will go a long way towards bringing in new blood, as would more high-quality English commentary (afaik it's mostly just Sayle, but I don't know if he does Korean pro games). If Day[9] started doing BW dailies for a few weeks, there would be a huge boom.
Sayle is doing English commentary for the upcoming PL season. :3
There isnt much more to say after HawaiianPig’s post.
But what I really would like to emphasize is that you can’t expect to appreciate a complex game like BW with such abysmal efforts. Saying that you don’t find BW magical after playing the campaign and watching a handful of VODs where you have no clue of whats going on is ridiculous. That is like watching the first 5 minutes of The Godfather and then turn it off because you didn’t find it very exciting.
On November 01 2011 07:56 gn0m wrote: But what I really would like to emphasize is that you can’t expect to appreciate a complex game like BW with such abysmal efforts. Saying that you don’t find BW magical after playing the campaign and watching a handful of VODs where you have no clue of whats going on is ridiculous. That is like watching the first 5 minutes of The Godfather and then turn it off because you didn’t find it very exciting.
It's too far for the OP to extrapolate from her efforts to explore the game to saying that the passion comes from nothing special in the game at all. However, I do think that the fact that she didn't really enjoy trying to learn it that much illustrates why the game isn't picking up many new followers -- because the barrier to entry is so high.
On November 01 2011 07:56 gn0m wrote: But what I really would like to emphasize is that you can’t expect to appreciate a complex game like BW with such abysmal efforts. Saying that you don’t find BW magical after playing the campaign and watching a handful of VODs where you have no clue of whats going on is ridiculous. That is like watching the first 5 minutes of The Godfather and then turn it off because you didn’t find it very exciting.
It's too far for the OP to extrapolate from her efforts to explore the game to saying that the passion comes from nothing special in the game at all. However, I do think that the fact that she didn't really enjoy trying to learn it that much illustrates why the game isn't picking up many new followers -- because the barrier to entry is so high.
Yeah illustrating decision making (of the pros) is complicated. However, understanding it gives a great sense of wonder and excitement as the drama unfolds. Starcraft BW allows these decisions to have true consequences and rewards. BISH
On November 01 2011 05:59 HawaiianPig wrote: <style type="text/css">#hppost { font-family: verdana, sans-serif; } .box { background: #8095A7; margin: 0px 15px; padding: 30px; border-radius: 10px; -moz-border-radius: 10px; -webkit-border-radius: 10px; } .box2 { background: #E4E9ED; margin: 0px 15px; padding: 30px; border: 1px solid #566B7A; border-radius: 10px; -moz-border-radius: 10px; -webkit-border-radius: 10px; } .quotebox { margin: 10px 70px; padding: 15px; font-size: 8pt; border-radius: 10px; -moz-border-radius: 10px; -webkit-border-radius: 10px; background: #2F425C; color: #E0EEFF; } .orderedlisthp { background: #8095A7; margin: 10px 50px; padding:10px; border-radius: 10px; -moz-border-radius: 10px; -webkit-border-radius: 10px; } .orderedlisthp ol { padding-left: 30px; font: italic 12pt Georgia, Times, serif; } .orderedlisthp ol p { font: normal 10pt verdana, sans-serif; color: #092842; }</style><div id="hppost">I'm going to abuse the hell out of my HTML rights to lay this out clearly:
<div class="quotebox">On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote:
I think on further reflection, much of my thoughts on this are based in part on how BW gets represented many times when there is talk about it to someone who does not know the game. The overwhelming impression I have received is that watching a few games of BW, or trying to play it yourself will completely change the way you think about BW-- make you love it, make you think it's the best, make you want to learn everything you can about it and be part of that community (regardless of whether or not you drop other particular games all together in favor of it). The tone I feel like I have heard is that there is no way you can not love BW once you have been exposed to it, try watching X game and you will change your mind.</div>
<div class="box">
The BW Elitist's "Overzealous Claim"
Ok, we have some serious miscommunication here. I think the crux of the issue is that those who apparently "get" BW are terrible at conveying their stance to the uninitiated.
For example, let's revisit that first quote. RedJustice wrote:
<span style="color: #FFDBAA;">"The tone I feel like I have heard is that there is no way you can not love BW once you have been exposed to it, try watching X game and you will change your mind."</span>
It's true. I see people speak like this all the time, and while I shrug it off in casual conversations, it needs to be made clear that this is probably the worst approach you can take if your aim is to introduce someone to Brood War. I've always found these types of claims overzealous. They scream of what amounts to fanboyism.
You know... that whole:
<span style="color: #FFDBAA;">"Just watch Flash play and you'll know why BW is so much better than everything ever!!!"</span>
This is silly and not how one should seriously go about introducing someone to Brood War.
Let me take the time to properly recommend this fine game to you.
Before I do so, we'll first look at the language behind what people say when they suggest the game. The suggestion to do X Y and Z in order to "love BW" needs some caveats.
The "overzealous claim" is better phrased this way:
<span style="color: #FFDBAA;">"Doing X Y and Z will get you to love BW if and only if certain assumptions are made."</span>
These assumptions are: <div class="orderedlisthp"><ol><li><p>There are certain values that comprise the "love" that must be deemed valid</p></li><li><p>X Y and Z are proper ways to convey why BW upholds these values</p></li></ol></div> A practical example of this, based on my stance on the matter follows:</div>
Why You May Come To Love BW
Here's my personal reasoning:
<div class="orderedlisthp"><ol><li><p>If you highly value activities that (i) require, (ii) demonstrate and (iii) measure skill in a competitive way, then</p></li><li><p>By engaging in (i) learning the game and (ii) exploring its depth and breadth of skill, you will reasonably understand why BW is one of the, if not best, examples of the aforementioned values.</p></li></ol></div> Now, you've already had some exposure, as you outline here:
<div class="quotebox">On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote:
I played a small amount myself-- enough to experience the difference in the amount of multitasking and unit control it requires. I am pretty bad, but I can still appreciate this challenge.
I watched the OSL finals because it seemed that it would represent some of the best play I could see that is happening now. It was exciting, and crazy, and fun to watch.
I watched VODs on my own to find out a bit more about what was going on in the game, and see some of the amazing plays like reaver drops that everyone loves (they are pretty awesome).
I appreciated it-- I think it is a good game, and better than what is out there now. I did not have this epiphany of recognizing how much I wanted to learn more about BW and play it and celebrate it.</div>
It seems as though you have engaged in both 2(i) and 2(ii) to some extent.
However, I'd contend one of either two things occured:
You didn't engage in learning the game or exploring the depths properly, or
You do not highly value the tenants of point 1.
I'll address each point here individually:
<div class="box">
If you feel you didn't engage in learning the game or exploring the depths properly
I'd suggest you find a BW player of about C rank or up and ask them to teach you the game.
Now, I do understand that it's a huge undertaking to develop a strong understanding of the game. I can tell you from experience that it took about a year for me to truly start to appreciate the existence of fine intricacies in the game, and I fully admit that I know nothing relative to a better player.
So... in the event you don't want to invest this time, I'd suggest watching games and hearing what a skilled player has to say about what happened.
...And by skilled player, I do not mean an English caster. I love em, and they made the foreign scene accessible to many during the years prior to SC2's release, but anyone who's been around will tell you that most English casters had very limited knowledge of the game. (i.e. Klazart and the "Bisu Build," lmao)
If you can't get a hold of skilled player, watch VODs or live games together. Barring that, maybe read some of the analysis posted in the BW news here on TL. Our battle reports are often written by players who have a good grasp on the game. Anything written by Kiante* and mustaju in the last 2 or 3 weeks of the most recent Proleague season was pretty spot on. Also check out KwarK's analysis of OSL games, he is often unforgivingly critical of pros. It's a good thing.
*Careful with Kiante... his writing could... uh... use improvement at times. </div>
<div class="box">
If you feel you don't value the tenants of point 1
That is to say: you don't highly value activities that require, demonstrate and measure skill in a competitive way, then you probably won't enjoy BW. Simple as that.
The fanfare, the hype, the leagues and fanboy/girlism, all of it, in my opinion, exists on a necessary foundation of a sufficiently complex and deep game. You need to be able to appreciate this greatly to greatly appreciate BW itself.</div>
Now that I've gone beyond the "OMG Watch this game and you'll know" recommendation.
I'll now address your main objection as to why you doubt the "magic":
<div class="box2">
The RedJustice Objection: If BW is so great, why isn't it incredibly popular?
<div class="quotebox">On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote:
One of the prevailing arguments has been that if BW didn't have this inherent bit of "magic" that makes people love it, how would there be such a strong scene, and so much more success for the game than any other?
What I wonder in response-- legitimately, not disrespectfully-- is that if it has that inherent magic, why is it struggling? Why aren't thousands and thousands of new fans entering the scene? Why isn't the foreign fanbase of BW growing after it gets re-exposed to the world with the release of SC2?</div> First thing's first:
BW's success in popularity is a manifestation of love for the game, not the reasoning behind it.
The truth is, just because we have good reason to love the game, does not mean everyone will buy into those reasons.
If you look at the video game industry, competitive and challenging games are, on the whole, in a decline. There has been a steep rise in cheap, simple and "fun" casual games. People who enjoy these games pay no mind to the competitive nature and skill required.
The truth is, it's actually not very common for people to enjoy the details of the skill required of any game or sport. There may be a core of "enthusiasts" that are well versed in the intricacies of any given activity, but I'd argue that the majority of the fanbase for these activities have only a cursory understanding.
Most of my friends and family who watch Hockey with me have no idea what "a trap" is, but they thoroughly enjoy the atmosphere and fanfare surrounding team rivalries and watching someone use a stick of wood to slap a puck into a net.
However, Hockey would not have thrived and developed this atmosphere, this fanfare, this storied history, without a solid foundation of a truly deep and competitively rich activity. This can be said for any popular sport or competitive activity.
Brood War has this foundation, but whether or not it has the fanbase on top is a matter of a whole host of other factors.
You contend that BW is "struggling," and while that may be an overstatement, the reasoning behind this is a complex issue. Chief among the reasons for this struggle just so happens to lie in the release of what's essentially a new version of the game. This release not only directly competes with it for attention, but has resulted in a host of legal issues with the broadcasting of the game itself. Add in the fact that the newer game is more accessible to new players (it's easier to pick up and play), makes for just a few of many "blows" to the BW scene.
These blows are not inherent to the game, they're complex matters of cultural adoption.
You can devise an activity that compellingly and interestingly measures human skill, but how that activity is disseminated has nothing to do with the activity itself.
In short, many of us love the game for its sheer merits, and the fanbase built upon it gives it a further dimension that we feel is warranted, deserved and incredibly engaging.
That being said, the fanbase, its popularity, and the health of the scene is based on more factors than simply how good (read: competitively deep) the game is.
To object to the game's inherent merits based on the health of the scene is to be blind to the complexity of the process of what makes something popular.</div>
If that doesn't answer your questions and give you perspective on the matter, I don't know what will </div>
First of all, every time I see you post, I think of this:
This is the best post in this blog (and the prettiest). It is the most positive. It acknowledges my concerns about the 'overzealous claims' that led me to say, ok I did these things, and no, it's not how you claimed it would be. And then you went on to give me this super great explanation of things. I really appreciate it.
I am legitimately interested in this topic, as I think you have gathered since you bothered to give me this reply. I am by no means 'over' with BW, though I doubt I will ever pursue it in any competitive fashion. (I can't even play sc2 competitively right now, lololol.) I am interested in continuing to watch it. + Show Spoiler +
And I continue to stalk the Nada's body thread a lot. >o>
Wow that post Hpig was incredibly well worded, I'm in awe. I would also feel that a Day[9] daily about BW would help the scene tremendously and maybe even help reconciling the sc1 and sc2 fanbases.
Redjustice: It would be awesome if you started following brood war! When you love something as much as we love brood war you want to share it with as many people as possible.
On November 01 2011 08:31 LuckyFool wrote: Is it just me or has there been more than usual amazing kickass broodwar discussion around here lately. Feels good.
I think it leads into one of the bigger problems with explaining the love for the game,in that pre SC2, we were never really pushed to find what it truly was we loved about the game, nor were we pushed to find ways to put that love into words. Up until then, "It's an easy to watch, well balanced FPS" kinda sufficed. Nothing before was similar enough to make us really have to elaborate too hard.
On November 01 2011 07:56 gn0m wrote: But what I really would like to emphasize is that you can’t expect to appreciate a complex game like BW with such abysmal efforts. Saying that you don’t find BW magical after playing the campaign and watching a handful of VODs where you have no clue of whats going on is ridiculous. That is like watching the first 5 minutes of The Godfather and then turn it off because you didn’t find it very exciting.
It's too far for the OP to extrapolate from her efforts to explore the game to saying that the passion comes from nothing special in the game at all. However, I do think that the fact that she didn't really enjoy trying to learn it that much illustrates why the game isn't picking up many new followers -- because the barrier to entry is so high.
Agreed. As someone mentioned earlier in this thread, games seem to be aimed at a more casual crowed these days and I can understand how many people enjoy that. But in general, I think most activities in life have a “high barrier of entry”, for example stuff like traditional sports, chess (and other classic board games) etc. Interestingly enough, these activities tend to remain popular for a long period of time, since people find the depth appealing.
Basically, it doesn't matter what anybody says in reply to HP because his post simply looks like it has more authority than anything else you can argue with.
On November 01 2011 10:02 Klogon wrote: Basically, it doesn't matter what anybody says in reply to HP because his post simply looks like it has more authority than anything else you can argue with.
This is where bw elitists come in and say only a bw elitist could make a post like that.
On November 01 2011 10:32 iNfeRnaL wrote: hpig comes in and its basically /thread
Missed the point though. From my understanding the overall point from the OP is that devoid of it's community and history BW has no "magic". Or to state it another way by itself BW is just a great really well made game but the "magic" is in the community.
If Starcraft or BW were never released and you came across it in a dustbin installed it and played it you would likely enjoy it but it would just be an interesting well made game nothing more. The OP isn't saying that BW has no magic but that the magic comes from the community and competition.
Anyway that was what I understood the OP to be saying.
On November 01 2011 10:32 iNfeRnaL wrote: hpig comes in and its basically /thread
Missed the point though. From my understanding the overall point from the OP is that devoid of it's community and history BW has no "magic". Or to state it another way by itself BW is just a great really well made game but the "magic" is in the community.
If Starcraft or BW were never released and you came across it in a dustbin installed it and played it you would likely enjoy it but it would just be an interesting well made game nothing more. The OP isn't saying that BW has no magic but that the magic comes from the community and competition.
Anyway that was what I understood the OP to be saying.
Except you can literally say that about every game or sport in existence.
What on earth is the definition of "magic" in this blog, anyways?
On November 01 2011 10:32 iNfeRnaL wrote: hpig comes in and its basically /thread
Missed the point though. From my understanding the overall point from the OP is that devoid of it's community and history BW has no "magic". Or to state it another way by itself BW is just a great really well made game but the "magic" is in the community.
If Starcraft or BW were never released and you came across it in a dustbin installed it and played it you would likely enjoy it but it would just be an interesting well made game nothing more. The OP isn't saying that BW has no magic but that the magic comes from the community and competition.
Anyway that was what I understood the OP to be saying.
one of the good things about bw when it was a smaller community was that pretty much everyone who watched it had played it on some competitive level and knew what made it great. so when they watch progaming matches it made them that much better than for the average viewer.
at one point there was a small fledgling community of casters who watched a lot of bw but had little to no experience the game and started youtube casting. if you played bw you could tell immediately that they had no idea what they were talking about and most of the casters received an enormous amount of backlash. this is kind of what's happening now. the idea that you can just watch bw and "get" will not suffice. when a game is as delicate and intricate as bw you either need to experience it or be told through tremendously good casting in order to gauge the magnitude of certain actions.
the "magic" that is interpreted to be community generated should really be seen as a separate entity from the "magic" that made bw a great game. especially when you consider at one point the TL community consisted of 2 or 3 dozen regular posters.
here is a good example of a well commentated game for those who have never played before:
On November 01 2011 11:34 Nemesis wrote: Wow Hawaiian Pig is a boss! Especially for putting that much effort for one person, or maybe he just has too much free time.
Trust me, I don't have the free time. </lawstudent>
On November 01 2011 10:32 iNfeRnaL wrote: hpig comes in and its basically /thread
Missed the point though. From my understanding the overall point from the OP is that devoid of it's community and history BW has no "magic". Or to state it another way by itself BW is just a great really well made game but the "magic" is in the community.
If Starcraft or BW were never released and you came across it in a dustbin installed it and played it you would likely enjoy it but it would just be an interesting well made game nothing more. The OP isn't saying that BW has no magic but that the magic comes from the community and competition.
Anyway that was what I understood the OP to be saying.
On October 31 2011 17:49 HawaiianPig wrote: The more I learned to play the game competitively the more I realized it was something special.
As I learned more, I became more and more aware of how much I didn't know. As someone with a competitive FPS background I was quickly able to appreciate this.
I soon realized that what set apart a D player to a D+ player to a C player on ICCUP was a staggering amount of perspective with respect to how the game worked.
I realized that the game has incredible and unrivaled depth. And therein lies your magic.
Here are the key points that I think made BW successful, they are all equal of importance.
1) Marketing - The major underlining success factor of any product is how it's marketed, if you have companies putting in big money into something, it will get popular no-matter how crap the product is.
2) Commentators - These guys keep people entertained before, during and after the game. From what I see, a commentator needs to be smart at the game too (to decipher strategies players use), create tension, excitement and keep the audience focus.
3) BW's Mechanics - This is a very broad area, but in a nutshell, 2 main things: Units and Difficulty. Units being vultures(mines)/reavers/storms/lurkers combined with the difficulty to reach 'mastery' level of the game (this is just a sample, I could go on forever). The audience will give awesome respect to players who can perform these feats.
4) Fans/Teams/Players - Flash v JD, nuff said. Having talented players showing themselves and putting it their best is what we want to see. Hype, rivalries, and the fanbase all fall into this category which 'self promote' the game.
So to answer the question of 'magic in BW'. The only magic I see is how the fuck did a game developer come to a conclusion of having spider mines and reavers and which god created JD and Flash.
Ok...fair enough, you have your own opinion. You're right in a way that bw have no magic, because in fact it's the legendary players like boxer who casted his magic in it, oov carried it, nada nurtured it and finally flash mastered it. That's why it's so magical to me, peace ;3
I can safely say that SC is pure magic to me since I first saw (actually heard) the installation window back in 98. I fell in love towards the end of the first cinematic. BW only added to the flavor. Then the scene made it what it is today.
Can those pretty HTML thingies be a regular format for HPig's posts? Hahaha amazing.
I don't like these discussions on incredibly arbitrary, subjective qualities like magic, simply because the standard isn't set in stone. From a certain point of view, you can make an argument that BW is just a game (removing the context is so easy - if BW was the only RTS game in the world, I don't think we would have sufficient data to compare, for example). You're taking the game in itself, isolating it from factors that definitely affected it (high level play, the discovery of its complexity, etc), and judging it from a perspective BUILT on the factors you removed (especially with the egregious use of analogy). I think that's unfair, and if you wanted a good discussion you could have made a less declarative statement (BW Magic - It's not in the game).
Here's my take on it. The so-called "magic" in a game is something a person cannot experience in isolation from high-level play and analysis and a certain level of excitement while playing and watching it. If both those aspects exist, then you'll be able to honestly judge for yourself if the game possesses that indefinable characteristic. BW, when consumed in such an environment, has resulted and continues to result in drawing fans - many of whom haven't even played the game - to itself and its professional scene. These fans have come to accept what you have not. I think this is a manifestation of this "magic", and is conclusive evidence that BW was, and is, more than just a game.
On November 01 2011 08:31 LuckyFool wrote: Is it just me or has there been more than usual amazing kickass broodwar discussion around here lately. Feels good.
I think it leads into one of the bigger problems with explaining the love for the game,in that pre SC2, we were never really pushed to find what it truly was we loved about the game, nor were we pushed to find ways to put that love into words. Up until then, "It's an easy to watch, well balanced FPS" kinda sufficed. Nothing before was similar enough to make us really have to elaborate too hard.
Me Ghost. Shoot, cloak, and shit yo.
But I agree with you, everybody tends to start appreciating something when one's about to lose it.
On November 01 2011 17:41 SoFool wrote: Ok...fair enough, you have your own opinion. You're right in a way that bw have no magic, because in fact it's the legendary players like boxer who casted his magic in it, oov carried it, nada nurtured it and finally flash mastered it. That's why it's so magical to me, peace ;3
Your magic is full of Terran. No, it is not in the race.
On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote: What I wonder in response-- legitimately, not disrespectfully-- is that if it has that inherent magic, why is it struggling? Why aren't thousands and thousands of new fans entering the scene? Why isn't the foreign fanbase of BW growing after it gets re-exposed to the world with the release of SC2?
Because all the money's in SC2 (at least in the foreign scene), and BW is far less accessible to casual fans.
With the game's release, the number of SC2 players dwarfed the BW player pool, and the new players naturally had more interest in the game they played than in its predecessor. Sponsors are already almost solely interested in spending money on new games (which can help them sell hardware), and Blizzard is now actively supporting competitive SC2, so that's where the money goes. And where the money goes, the players follow (ask any ex-BW player which game they'd prefer if money was no object). So the foreign competitive BW scene, which was pretty accessible to casual fans, nearly disappeared when SC2 tournaments started showing up. Not just the players, but the top casters also found they could actually make a living with SC2.
The main source of an ESPORT's viewership is the game's players, and BW is not exactly a newb-friendly game. And without English commentary, Korean BW is very difficult to get into (the lack of foreign players to follow doesn't help either). It's possible for SC2 fans to get into BW, but it takes some EffOrt. Threads like this will go a long way towards bringing in new blood, as would more high-quality English commentary (afaik it's mostly just Sayle, but I don't know if he does Korean pro games). If Day[9] started doing BW dailies for a few weeks, there would be a huge boom.
Overall I think the BW fanbase will grow steadily until the Korean scene dies. If it does die, I have no idea what will happen, but I'm not optimistic. There's simply too little money in the foreign BW scene to sustain it, when players could be making so much more with SC2. =/
Idra and Artosis come to mind. Idra just seemed Idra about it and said he prefers sc2. Artosis on the other hand always felt like he was forcing sc2 over SC, but again that's just how I felt on his actions.
Haha that's an understatement... Artosis is one of the worst examples, but the casters really do exaggerate like hell. And he has a decent level of playing BW so when i'm hearing him say something is amazing that very blatantly is not it's just sad. Tons of the casting is so forced. And willing to constantly reference supply counts that are easily availabe but not actually state the obvious from them preferring to keep up the illusion the game is still competitive.
Him and Tasteless sucked if i remember in the TSL2 anyway, i'm happy with Sayle as the commentator because that kind of understated casual casting just suits Starcraft perfectly unless it's some huge finals or something in need of a bit extra. It's a strategy game after all but that's kind of put to the background once someone casts some AMAZING FORCEFIELDS!!
I think SC2 could have been out in any state honestly, no matter the quality of the game.. and a lot of the same people would have still done the same. So many people had a vested interest before the game even launched. Can't be objective if you stand to pretty obviously be involved in it as a career.
BW didn't shape my life , I played it when I was around 8 years old for a bit (Fastest NR 15 or BGH/LT lol) and I started back on Iccup (D- = diamond player that plays like 2games a week) with the impending release of SC2.
However, my brother tuned me into GomTv Classic and even though I sucked balls, only played zerg and didn't know anything about the korean scene (players or teams) I was hyped as fuck watching that entire tournament. After I had a bit (ie minimal) understanding of the game I began digging through youtube and some casting sites for decent english commentary.
It was lacking so I watched normal videos with korean commentary; still hyped as fuck. Obviously like in any game there are stomps or boring drawn out games, but if you find two players/teams that are evenly matched it's very entertaining. On par with hockey entertaining imo
The reason for this in my mind is the game is always close to balanced and if it's not the mapmakers force equality as best they can. This makes two evenly skilled players fight to the death, grappling for every advantage and never giving space if they don't have to I LOVE THAT.
SC2 is prettier, there are more explosions, and things die everywhere super fast. However I barely play it and barely watch it because I don't usually get excited watching a game. When I do get pumped it's because of a player or team playing, because of a personal investment not because I can sit down watch any two high level players play and get hyped because it's going to be tense.
If SC2 had a slower pace (units wise) and allowed more of the player to shine through maybe i'd watch it more, but as it stands right now I can honestly say I'd rather watch two B or higher players duke it out on Iccup than watch 90% of SC2 games.
On November 01 2011 04:58 Hot_Bid wrote: The emotion and connection the fans have with BW is precisely what makes the "magic" and makes it special. It's a lot like college athletics in that way, the players aren't paid much and a lot of what they do is because of passion, it's a lot of "care" for not a lot of return.
I didn't believe it was possible to disagree with a post this much, but then I read your blog. I am a huge football fan myself but your blog honestly feels like someone who has never watched the game saying the exact same thing about the NFL, it's close minded and irresponsible.
The last sentence is unclear to me. Watched which game wut?
It's like someone watching one game of NFL and being like "I don't see the magic."
A lot of people have said that to me (video gamers or soccer fans) and it's frustrating. It's because football is simultaneously a very emotional and brutal sport and an extremely deep and cerebral one as well, there's a lot of preparation for a very small amount of execution (similar to SC actually in that way), its basically chess in real time with people.
Take how you feel about the NFL and imagine someone wrote the same blog but with american football instead of BW, thats how I feel about what you wrote.
It's next to impossible to appreciate a game like BW without any understanding of it. Half the "magic" in watching progamers play is being good enough to understand that it's crazy.
Some games (as in individual matches) are accessible to first time viewers, whereas others will seem underwhelming because the viewer does not comprehend what is happening.
I think that with a game as deep and as well-developed as SC, if you are bad -- and if you've only played a few games of BW, you are BEYOND bad (and I mean this to be in no way insulting, just the truth) -- you will not appreciate it beyond the most incredibly superficial of levels.
Anyways I just read the Hawaii pig guy's post and what I'm saying is very redundant.
@redjustice I am passionate about broodwar but looking at how ill equip and jobless right now because I am currently studying , I can't do a thing about streaming and creating fun events although Supernovamaniac and Sayle , Nuke the stars are doing a great job creating lots of high level content for foreign broodwar . I am trying my best to contribute by uploading fpvods , but than I don't think you will be so interested in the fpvods by the way and it's understandable . Not many people will watch unless those guys are really keen on improving their games .
Bw magic to me is multi tasking on the fly , controlling the flow of the game , trickery , playing mind games all the strategy that is involve in the game can be easily missed if you don't watch some of the games carefully . It's just that every time I lose I am coming back for more and trying to win again . I see it as a challenge and want to improve . Maybe you should try laddering in iccup to C+ as a goal and than probably you can appreciate the toughness and magic we are seeing on screen.
On October 31 2011 15:53 RedJustice wrote: EDITEDIT: this is my opinion, and I'm trying to have a discussion about it because I want to hear what other people have to say.
Third thing (most important)--
I think on further reflection, much of my thoughts on this are based in part on how BW gets represented many times when there is talk about it to someone who does not know the game. The overwhelming impression I have received is that watching a few games of BW, or trying to play it yourself will completely change the way you think about BW-- make you love it, make you think it's the best, make you want to learn everything you can about it and be part of that community (regardless of whether or not you drop other particular games all together in favor of it). The tone I feel like I have heard is that there is no way you can not love BW once you have been exposed to it, try watching X game and you will change your mind.
I played a small amount myself-- enough to experience the difference in the amount of multitasking and unit control it requires. I am pretty bad, but I can still appreciate this challenge.
I watched the OSL finals because it seemed that it would represent some of the best play I could see that is happening now. It was exciting, and crazy, and fun to watch.
I watched VODs on my own to find out a bit more about what was going on in the game, and see some of the amazing plays like reaver drops that everyone loves (they are pretty awesome).
I appreciated it-- I think it is a good game, and better than what is out there now. I did not have this epiphany of recognizing how much I wanted to learn more about BW and play it and celebrate it.
That is fine; however, some opinions are held higher than others. You played a few LAN games, watched some VODs and took in a finals.
To be honest, that is very little. There is oodles of content out there, several things going on at the same time and various eras to acquaint for, which makes the process of understanding Brood War very complicated.
Like I said, RTS games can be a bit trickier to get into because there are so many moving pieces. Not to say first-person shooters like Quake don't have a lot of moving pieces either.
To a simpleton Quake looks something like this:
- 1:1 - timer - get more kills than your opponent before the timer expires.
Whereas, a simpleton sees Brood War as:
- 1:1 - Destroy Enemies buildings and win.
Seems simple and straight forward, no? Not so much.
It's really hard coming into this scene as a latecomer because there is so much to digest. You really have to understand the intricacies of the game. There are so many players who are D or D+ on ICCUP yet they understand the game to some capacity. It's hard to find other games like this with such depth and gamers aren't used to working with U.I.'s like this. People say it's outdated. Fine, but you have to wrap your head around it because it is part of the rulebook of what you can and cannot do. As a player you have to work with these limitations to maximize your return. Opportunity cost is critical and until you really get rolling with the time spent returning to base and controlling your army it's hard to get a real grip on it. It's harder for the new generation gamer to get into because they're used to friendlier U.I.'s. It really isn't an advancement in retrospect. I believe players should be confined to certain things.
One of the prevailing arguments has been that if BW didn't have this inherent bit of "magic" that makes people love it, how would there be such a strong scene, and so much more success for the game than any other?
What I wonder in response-- legitimately, not disrespectfully-- is that if it has that inherent magic, why is it struggling? Why aren't thousands and thousands of new fans entering the scene? Why isn't the foreign fanbase of BW growing after it gets re-exposed to the world with the release of SC2?
If your answer is just simply that they haven't really gotten exposed to BW or understand it, go be a Jehova's Witness. You can't just say that the only reason people don't believe like you do is because they don't understand it. You have to go evangelize.
I have also seen a lot of angry or hurt-- well you just don't understand, you're wrong.
It has a strong following because
- the game is incredibly deep (there's a reason why we still celebrate it after ten years) - the community around it (note: the Korean Scene didn't need TL.net, GG.net, etc. at all... websites like this just helped the foreigner scene stick together) - it made for a great spectator sport (having great announcers helps too)
You ask why BW is struggling outside of Korea? Oh, come on now. I've heard too many people say this now and it's simple logic really.
1) The gaming industry churns out new games at a ridiculous rate and it's their job to push the new products. 2) You know how it works, gamers like flashier graphics (just look at all the comments about how outdated BW looks) and guess what SC2 by design is more simple and more appealing to gamers of today. They don't want to have to fight the U.I. They choose to look at the negatives rather than the positives and like I said before, it is really hard to follow and understand a game when you are already fighting an uphill battle against the U.I. You have to look at the glass as half full rather than half empty. Then you can start looking at all the special strategies and tactics. 3) Blizzard releases SC2. WCIII and SC:BW RTS players unite. 4) BW isn't financially feasible for these players and it never was. Look at the amount of tournaments foreigners had to compete in. SC2 is a new opportunity where a lot of cash is involved. They didn't really have a choice. Here comes the wealth of knowledge... everyone from Assem, Rekrul, Draco, ret, IdrA, NonY, etc. tried to break into the scene. Assem played some televised games in PL but as for the rest? No dice. Draco and NonY had a lot of potential. I guess you could say the same for IdrA as he was finally starting to win some foreigner events (pretty dominantly I might add), but still that wasn't enough for him to get a spot on the CJ A-Team and they had to take him from estro to boot.
To all the new people. I don't think you really understand how hard it actually was to make a Pro League Roster.
5) Players are too focused on SC2. There is no time to appreciate the beauty of BW. You put a little effort into it. If I were in your shoes I would be overwhelmed with it too.
Maybe I am wrong, and so are a lot of other people, but we would be stupid to believe you because you said so. I didn't spend a long time with the game, it is true. I spent long enough to say-- well I wasn't immediately blown away by it so don't think that feeling comes from the game then.
I have seen many good posts on BW, trying to convince others to really look at it and enjoy it. There are posts like that in this thread. These are positive, but mostly still have this assumption that doing x, y, and z suggestions will convert someone to feeling a certain way. I don't think it's enough, and the insistence that it is probably hurts the cause. If you care about it that much, try something new! Find a different way to help people see what you see in the game.
There are a number of good sources within this community. A lot of great writers and knowledgeable people. Unfortunately as the new kid on the block, you don't know where to turn.
Back to playing the game, okay so you witnessed the U.I. and A.I. to see how tricky it can be to actually play, so you can sort of respect what the players are doing within the rulebook. That's a start. From my perspective, that is only one layer. Now we got to put all the other little pieces together to complete the puzzle that is BW. We have to consider everything from the storytelling of the announcers to the dynamics of the actual play.
Converting? I wouldn't say that. Look, RTS games are a niche market compared to other games like FPS. Both are very complex at the pro levels, but to a beginner FPS is easier to take in. With RTS games the layers are a bit more visible and complex; not subtle. It's more of a challenge to process unless you spent a ridiculous amount of time with the given game.
With that said, I'm not out to convert anyone. If someone wants to learn how to play better (I used to coach and manage a lot back in the day) I will give them a shortlist of things to work on to improve. Nothing more. You either like it, or you don't.
I'm not here to build the fan-base. I will educate if asked though.
The discussions in various sc2 vs bw threads have pretty much done nothing. Not a lot of people are wandering over and exploring of their own free will. Most of what you get exposed to of the BW community outside of the BW forum is all the negative stuff going on.
Show people it's good-- why aren't all of the passionate BW people on TL organizing BW events and streams, and interactive things specifically designed to involve new people in learning about BW?
Of course they've done nothing except make people bill others as either elitist pricks or this guy has no clue what he's talking about because they really haven't followed/played the game to understand it.
The negativity goes far beyond the bw versus sc2 conversation; it's practically everywhere on these forums. You really have to take a step back. I cannot believe how incredibly defensive gamers are about their pass-times. I find it over-excessive. Just look at the Milkis debacle. People are being ridiculous.
Lots of people don't want to see BW go. There has been a lot of bad news recently dating back to February, so yeah what can I say? Players injured, MBC shutting down, more teams about to disband, etc. You name it! Sort of hard to find positives out of the whole experience and every RTS gamer should be banding together regardless instead of bitching and moaning.
Those guys are angry because those people are talking out of their asses. They truly have no clue what they are talking about most of the time and they think it's their right to talk about it.
TL organizing BW events? There are actually plenty of guys hosting tournaments nowadays. I guess you haven't noticed the featured BW streams but they are there. Sponsorship is hard to come by and most of the time it comes out of a few community member's pockets. We have a number of guys hosting/casting tournaments like Sayle and Gamer. TL Attack covers SC2 BW maps all the time.
It goes back to what I said before, sponsors don't cater to the old games so we have private sponsors who fund the events themselves and there have been quite a number recently. TSL has moved on to SC2 as the vast majority of top players have because of the money. Tic Tac Toe.
It would be nice if Sean Plott (Day[9]) would do more stuff related to BW (as his analysis was much better at BW). Like TL he's moved on to greener pastures and the game truly is only viable in the Korean market. He doesn't want to lose sponsorship money. I'm sure one off's are possible, but don't expect it. Plus KeSPA is leaning into introducing SC2 into their library as well, so yeah.
I hear a lot about BW, and how much better it is than SC2. Many of the people I talk to on TL love BW. Lots of the guys I know irl who are Starcraft fans love BW. These people are so passionate and excited about their game, and angry when people dismiss it without watching it or playing it themselves. Anyone who gives it a real chance-- who watches some games, sits down and tries to play a bit, who learns about the skill involved, and the community--will realize just how special BW is.
Fair enough.
I started watching some BW vods on Youtube. I watched the OSL live with some friends a few weeks back. I got myself a copy of BW, and played parts of the campaign, and even a few games over LAN with friends.
My conclusion is this:
BW doesn't have that magic-- that special something that makes it more wonderful than any other game, or any other RTS, or w/e. It doesn't have that sparkle. On it's own, it is just an incredibly well-made RTS that got lucky in some ways, and stuck around long enough to develop beyond what we have seen in other games. It's challenging, it's fun, it's exciting to watch and play (and frustrating).
The magic of BW (or any game for that matter) is in the experience of growing with a game for so long. The game means so much to people because of the time and emotion they have invested in it-- as spectators, players, or both. The first time you see it, it's exciting, and overwhelming. There is so much going on, and so many things to learn. You watch or play more. You start to understand the basics. Then you discover just how bad you are in comparison to other people. It's discouraging, but it pushes you to try harder and appreciate the skill of others more. You develop favorite players, favorite teams. You see the game change over time, you see the community change over time. You form friendship with other people who share you love of the game. You have wonderful memories of the nights you stayed up late to watch the finals, even though you had work or school the next morning. You have anger and disappointment for the cheating scandal, and sadness for seeing your favorite player struggling to overcome injuries. After years of something being this part of your life-- how could it not have a certain magic to it that no other game gives you?
Like I said, you either get it or you don't. Doesn't mean it cannot grow on you because it certainly did for a lot of us based on the depth, new discoveries and challenge. The U.I. definitely made us better gamers.
The magic lies in the U.I., units, maps, balance of the game and the revolutionary impact it had on Korea and gamers alike. By design it was a total fluke and after a number of patches... it became a gold mine. Balanced unlike any other RTS game and the communities embraced it.
It stuck around for so long because the other games flat out sucked and I dare you find a game that is more challenging and rewarding (intrinsically, no money for foreigners). You won't find one. This is one of the most demanding games you will ever play and until you actually try to compete and see just how good you can actually be... you will never truly know. Besides that, the only real scale we have now are the pro Koreans. The foreign scene is still around, but hell it's really not as big with all the cross-over. The Golden Era is over.
I don't put any stock in the idea that BW is more special because of it's audience and popularity. To me it seems like the Super Bowl. Millions of people watch it who don't tune in to the regular season games, who don't know the names of the players, or how they have been improving or falling behind the past few seasons. It's fun to watch and everyone throws a nice party, but it doesn't mean that football has something magic about it that so many people who don't play would tune in to watch these games.
These people don't understand the agony of seeing your team make it to the playoffs year and after year, and knowing they have the potential to reach the Super Bowl, and seeing them lose over and over. They don't have that joy every time they see the young quarterback they have been rooting for to prove himself make another perfect pass. They don't scream until they lose their voice when their team finally makes. They don't cry from being so damn happy, when that Super Bowl they have been hoping for their whole lives is finally won. (Fuck yeah I love Green Bay that much. <3)
When I was a little girl, we would drive to other people's houses to watch the game, because we didn't have a TV. My dad would read every bit of news about them, and repeat it at supper time. We would drive up to Green Bay when we visited my grandparents every summer, and pass the stadium. We would make our own signs, and wave them wildly from our living room couch, knowing if we cheered hard enough our team would win. We would take pride knowing that Green Bay is a people's team, and our team. When we moved to Dallas, we wore our Green Bay shirts loud and proud. The magic comes from how my team has been part of my life.
It's not something inherent about the game. The game may be amazingly well designed, and revolutionize an entire industry. It may be fun to watch, even if you don't play it. It may take incredible feats of skill and dedication to master. It's just a (great) game. The magic happens in how players and spectators choose to make it part of their lives and become emotionally involved with it.
The Super Bowl? You are going off on one BW Final you caught and the views it received. One. You can compare that one final to a Super Bowl all you want, but that's just wrong to look at it in that way when you look at all of them.
On another note the GSL has limited seating just like the OGN and MBC studios for regular season matches, so the comparison gets lost. Yes, you will see empty seats at both from time to time. The hours aren't necessarily great either because in many cases the kids have to skip school in order to catch those matches.
It's just a bad comparison and the TV stations do fine. It's just the foreigners who will bring up the views on re-streams for PL Finals and other Finals because they still want to know what happens. Staying up until 2-6am in the morning is incredibly hard to do. I used to come home from the bar and catch a few games before bed, but to do that everyday? :/
There are many variables involved.
So, where is the so-called ''magic'' and why did BW last this long?
I'll repeat a paragraph I said earlier:
It stuck around for so long because the other games flat out sucked and I dare you find a game that is more challenging and intrinsically rewarding. There was never a lot of money in the foreigner scene and money wasn't really an issue for most players. Plus, big tournaments like WCG were just starting to take shape.
It's incredibly hard to find a game as balanced and competitive as BW. It was way ahead of it's time. Definitely one of the most demanding games I ever played and until you actually try to compete and see just how good you can actually be... you will never truly know. Besides that, the only real scale we have now are the pro Koreans. The foreign scene is still around, but hell it's really not as big with all the cross-over. The Golden Era is over.
I think my football reference was completely appropriate, given where it spawned from (which HawaiianPig addressed):
I keep seeming to see this kind of statement: "There's no way to not love BW; just watch X game and you will see."
Everyone in this blog has generally argued that it is impossible, because you have to appreciate the depth, etc. Fair enough. There are also plenty of people who're apparently convinced that one OSL Final or epic VOD will change your life forever. 'It's like crack, and if you do x, y, z, you will be hooked forever! :D'
Which is like watching the Super Bowl-- plenty of people do and it never converts them into loving football or anything. It comes from much more than that.
"everyone ins this blog"? seriously? Well you for sure havent read my posts then, and you are probably misinterpreting those of many, if not all. Saying BW is amazing and better than other games because of the depth etc. is not the same as saying that its impossible not to love it. I dont even recall one person saying that, but yes, if one does say that then thats a dumb statement, not everyone in the world is gonna love BW, it takes a certain amount of commitment, openmindedness, intelligence, and taste to get to know it and fall in love with it. (And saying "you have to watch game xyz, then youre gonna love it" is not the same thing either) Not everyones gonna love this game. Huge realization, you didnt have to write a huge blog post about it. You sound like your only measure of how good a game is is how many people are gonna like it. It's not, that doesnt mean that BW isn't better than other games.
On November 02 2011 21:17 RedJustice wrote: I think my football reference was completely appropriate, given where it spawned from (which HawaiianPig addressed):
I keep seeming to see this kind of statement: "There's no way to not love BW; just watch X game and you will see."
Everyone in this blog has generally argued that it is impossible, because you have to appreciate the depth, etc. Fair enough. There are also plenty of people who're apparently convinced that one OSL Final or epic VOD will change your life forever. 'It's like crack, and if you do x, y, z, you will be hooked forever! :D'
Which is like watching the Super Bowl-- plenty of people do and it never converts them into loving football or anything. It comes from much more than that.
That is a lot of hodgepodge; it is very hard to appreciate the depth of a game without understanding the context of it. Many people won't get it and I'm fine with that. That's why RTS games are a niche market. Others can argue that Starcraft is the best game to spectate all they want. That doesn't mean it will become more mainstream.
You are putting words in people's mouths. I have never said anything like that in all my years of practice. I don't see that nonsense happening here either from what I read. In some cases you will find some members posting VODs of their favorite moments/games elsewhere for whatever reason. Perhaps they don't know how to express their feelings or know how to acknowledge everything that is going on so they post a tribute video instead without explaining the context and syntheses. Maybe they're just lazy. I don't know; I don't speak for them. I don't know why they love BW the way they do. Everyone's story is going to be different. It can incorporate everything from the relationships and bonds we make to the players we marvel. Rise or fall. So this x, y, z thing you speak of is false.
Starcraft has one of the most enthralling histories of all games. It's shelf-life withstands the testament of time in the gaming world.
HP can speak on his own behalf, but remember this, it's only his opinion and he doesn't speak for anyone else but himself. I would never compare that one final to the Super Bowl with all things incorporated.
The numbers tuning in on the re-stream for foreigners was relatively the same as before. I can say the same for regular season matches as well when it comes to us foreigners tuning in. I will leave it at that.
Someone photoshop My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic into My Brood War: The Game is Magic like right NAO and put Reavers, Lurkers and Vultures in the background!
I have read through most of this, and I still seem to disagree with your points. It's just about causality. You seem to think our dedication to broodwar causes us to think it's magical; I argue the opposite. It's magical or else we wouldn't even BE that dedicated to broodwar. There has to be something intrinsic in it that attracts us more so than Halo, CoD, DotA, or WC3. I think the fact that it's survived this long and still has a scene in korea proves that DOES have something other games don't, something to make it sparkle. You might not see it, but that could be for a plethora of reasons, and no matter what, the magic still exists.
Edit: You pointed out that it's struggling. I point out that it's struggling AFTER 13 years at the undisputed top of "e-sports." Can any other game claim that? Can any other game even claim such longevity along with such success? No. BW can. It's more magical, in that regard, than any other game out there right now.
easy to learn, hard to master drew me in from day 1 and been addicted ever since. Still remember my first game dieing to 6 zergling rush in 5 minutes while my one zealot was still building
I remember my first SC online experience. It was a ZvP in SC(the one w/o lurkers/sairs/DT) on some blizz map with wide open bases, no chokes or highground, kinda like Challenger(if you never played challenger in ur early days then ur no true BW player lol ) . This was somewhere in 1999 or 2000 and I didnt know shit, I was like keyb&mouse rank. I massed hydra from two hatches on one base and won. No words to describe the nostalgic feeling i get when i think of this.
I started following bw some days ago. Literally. Ofc I'm godawful trying to fight the UI and not have more than 10 idle workers each time,lol.
But I can already see what these people are admiring and over the years came to fall in love with. It's the endless indricasies of the game, the respect you have for the pro players, the endless strife to get better, but most of all it's the joy of accomplishment that you get from something silly, like dodging the orange cloud(whats the name again?), sneaking some vultures in the enemys main or trying to fend off a well executed push.
Just some hours ago I managed to grab my first ever win. It was a TvZ against a player in the same level as me.
Around 15 minutes in, I found myself juggling between producing scvs and sending them to my 3rd, trying to irradiate those pesky lurkers that were containing me, handling my vulture gang around the map and trying to keep up with macro. Don't remember exactly when, but when I realised what I was doing atm I felt excited and happy, weird I know. I looked at the minerals...10k and 3k gas. But I didn't feel annoyed or mad or anything like that at all. Instead I loled with my noobiness, gave an imaginary high five to my opponent and proceeded to enjoy the crap out of the game. No less than 20 minutes later my worthy rival typed gg. I felt a warm feeling inside as I understood that I would play bw for much, much longer.
I could discribe you what my feelings are when playing around the gold league in sc2, but that would upset me.
On November 03 2011 16:16 SarR wrote: I remember my first SC online experience. It was a ZvP in SC(the one w/o lurkers/sairs/DT) on some blizz map with wide open bases, no chokes or highground, kinda like Challenger(if you never played challenger in ur early days then ur no true BW player lol ) . This was somewhere in 1999 or 2000 and I didnt know shit, I was like keyb&mouse rank. I massed hydra from two hatches on one base and won. No words to describe the nostalgic feeling i get when i think of this.
OMG I went and checked Challenger... The nostalgia... <3 thanks for reminding me of that =) I think I'm gonna 1v1 the comp on it a few times now^^
On November 03 2011 17:13 Steveling wrote: I started following bw some days ago. Literally. Ofc I'm godawful trying to fight the UI and not have more than 10 idle workers each time,lol.
But I can already see what these people are admiring and over the years came to fall in love with. It's the endless indricasies of the game, the respect you have for the pro players, the endless strife to get better, but most of all it's the joy of accomplishment that you get from something silly, like dodging the orange cloud(whats the name again?), sneaking some vultures in the enemys main or trying to fend off a well executed push.
Just some hours ago I managed to grab my first ever win. It was a TvZ against a player in the same level as me.
Around 15 minutes in, I found myself juggling between producing scvs and sending them to my 3rd, trying to irradiate those pesky lurkers that were containing me, handling my vulture gang around the map and trying to keep up with macro. Don't remember exactly when, but when I realised what I was doing atm I felt excited and happy, weird I know. I looked at the minerals...10k and 3k gas. But I didn't feel annoyed or mad or anything like that at all. Instead I loled with my noobiness, gave an imaginary high five to my opponent and proceeded to enjoy the crap out of the game. No less than 20 minutes later my worthy rival typed gg. I felt a warm feeling inside as I understood that I would play bw for much, much longer.
I could discribe you what my feelings are when playing around the gold league in sc2, but that would upset me.
Bw is the shit.
It's cool to see that BW can still have that power after all these years =) Especially ZvT, such a beautiful match-up. That orange cloud is dark swarm, and I can tell you that on the other side you feel like Jaedong when you pull one off and still have less than 1.5k gas (but we zerg have ultras so it's ok :p).
RedJustice, if for no other reason, I have to give you credit for eliciting so many great responses. With so many great posts in this thread already I almost wasn't going to bother, but there are four flaws in your reasoning I would like to stress:
1 - The concept of "magic" or "specialness" your argument hinges on is very poorly defined.
This is the closest you get to clarifying the concept:
On October 31 2011 15:53 RedJustice wrote: BW doesn't have that magic-- that special something that makes it more wonderful than any other game, or any other RTS, or w/e. It doesn't have that sparkle.
Of course, part of the reason for using the term magic is that it works as a kind of catchall for a lot of very hard to describe concepts. When you make such a bold and contentious claim though, you're going to have to make your meaning a little more clear. What would be an example of a game that does have that "magic?" If you can't provide one, or if you argue that magic by definition arises from factors external to the game, then your definition is not very useful. Clearly some games are more "special" or "magical" than others in at least some sense. You need to articulate this much more explicitly if you want your argument to be taken seriously.
You have already acknowledged that Brood War is "incredibly well-made" and "fun." It is also not really arguable that it works extremely well as a spectator sport and is astonishingly deep. Despite how often the graphics are knocked for being so old, I would personally also argue that the game is very well-designed aesthetically, particularly the unit models and sound effects. With no stalker/roach/marauder trio of units, the races are also more diverse than in any other RTS I've ever encountered, including SC2. I would think those factors alone qualify BW as having something special. 2 - There are many counterexamples to your assertion that the magic in BW is simply a product of people's significant investments of time and emotion in this thread alone.
There are plenty of people in this thread who have shared how they discovered the magic of Brood War relatively recently despite having no real history with the game. Steveling's very nice post about 2 above mine is a perfect example.
On the other hand there are people like myself who have made significant investments following other games without seeing similar magic in them. I used to spend tons of time reading about Super Smash Bros Brawl and to a lesser extent Melee. I watched tons of games, read tons of strategy threads, and to this day I've played a lot more SSBB and SSBM than I have BW. There's something special about each of those games, but not in the same way and certainly not to the same extent as in BW. You might argue then that it's just personal preference but a) I fucking love Smash so you'd think I'd be one of the most likely to see similar magic in those games and b) that doesn't mean there isn't magic in the game, just that you're more or less likely to see it depending on your own affinity.
3 - Your own anecdotal evidence is not very compelling.
Part of this is just the fact that you reach such a strong conclusion about BW based on one piece of anecdotal evidence: your own experiences with the game. Another part of it is that based on your own descriptions, you don't seem to have done a very good job at trying out BW at all. Torte De Lini provided this wonderful analogy:
On October 31 2011 16:27 Torte de Lini wrote:You can't know about it by simply looking into that great lake, dipping your feet in and assume everything based on how cold the water is. Dive in, swim to the bottom and resurface. Come back to Brood War and do it again.
You seem to have approached BW with something of an unfair expectation. It's almost as though you read so many posts saying how great it was that you said, "oh yeah? we'll see about that" and then started on BW waiting with hands on hips for the game to impress you (obviously I'm exaggerating a little). Most people who discover BW do so not because they are expecting to be impressed but because they are genuinely interested in the game and want to learn more. In most cases they don't have the moment of enlightenment you seem to have been anticipating. It's a gradual process. The more they learn, the more amazing they find it and the more they want to learn, and pretty soon they're fanatics. They've found the magic.
I also want to address this:
On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote: Show people it's good-- why aren't all of the passionate BW people on TL organizing BW events and streams, and interactive things specifically designed to involve new people in learning about BW?
No offense, but for me this really cemented the impression that you put no real effort into getting to know Brood War. The passionate BW people on TL are doing all of those things. Just off the top of my head there's the sGs clan for beginning players, ImbaTosS's thread, Sayle's stream, Hacklebeast's show, or any of the several threads in BW general and strategy by SC2 players curious about BW (like this one). That's nowhere near a complete list, and I don't know how you could have not found at least some of those if you really went looking.
Really, it all boils down to the fact that you have to put in the effort yourself. You're right that doing x, y, and z won't necessarily make you a life long fan, but if you find BW fascinating and fun to follow and learn about, doing x, y, and z is very likely to deepen your understanding and enhance your experience of the game.
Your football example is also weak. You might only support the Packers because your parents raised you to, but a ton of people follow football because they find the game itself exciting, not because of an arbitrary team affiliation. I don't follow it myself really, but I know enough to realize there is a lot of depth and "magic" in American football.
Imagine if someone wrote that there was nothing special about chess or the music of Beethoven, and that all the magic in them were simply a result of the experiences so many people had with them. You would probably conclude that that person didn't understand the first thing about chess or Western art music. That is pretty much what's going on here.
4 - Pointing out that people maybe taking the wrong approach in helping others understand BW does not support your argument that there is no magic inherent to the game.
On November 01 2011 01:56 RedJustice wrote: I think on further reflection, much of my thoughts on this are based in part on how BW gets represented many times when there is talk about it to someone who does not know the game. The overwhelming impression I have received is that watching a few games of BW, or trying to play it yourself will completely change the way you think about BW-- make you love it, make you think it's the best, make you want to learn everything you can about it and be part of that community (regardless of whether or not you drop other particular games all together in favor of it). The tone I feel like I have heard is that there is no way you can not love BW once you have been exposed to it, try watching X game and you will change your mind.
Of course you are right that merely being exposed to BW will not make you love it forever, and BW fans aren't helping their cause by telling people that's all you need to do. Obviously though that doesn't mean there isn't magic in the game, so even if you wrote this partly in response to that sentiment, it doesn't support your overall conclusion.
Sorry if I come off as a little blunt. There are already plenty of great and more diplomatically worded posts, I just wanted to point out more clearly some of the holes in your argument.
Disclaimer: I have not played BW on ICCUP or anywhere else competitively, my experience with it is mainly playing vs friends. I never got faster then 130 apm or thereabout, which was still better then my friends. I do however love the game.
A spoilered text about how I experience my magic in BW
The magic in BW for me is when I (I play Terran) really get into zone. Everything flows just as fast as I want it, My macro feels spot on, a sort of mechanical feeling while at the same time being very fluent. I am constantly moving my troops, harassing, scouting and regrouping. Every time I do something it is with grace, smoothness and swiftness. I have trained for this and read up on build orders and now it is paying off.
I've had the same feeling in CS for instance but I have not had as many things to improve in that game, it has just been a good day or a bad one. In BW I had lots of things I needed to improve before I felt this feeling.
When whatching televised matches thie magic have come when players have not only outplayed their opposition but also the commentators and the audience. The surprised shouts from everyone when a completely unthought of move is executed is music to my ears. That, coupled with the excitement when someone you cheer for is playing and ends up crushing his opponent is a feeling I love.
I think that this experience of magic is in many ways dependant on the individual who is playing. Some like one game and call it full of "magic" while others don't. As I see it, almost every game will have at least someone who just love it, it's just that the better the game the more followers it will have. I know a lot of people just LOVE Dragon Age but I can't even like it. To me it's completely dead, but I know that there are hundreds of thousands of people who can feel the magic in it.
Conclusion: The OP didn't find the magic that me and many others feel in this game. This shouldn't be surprising, there are many games good out there that have people calling their game the best of all time but no one loves them all. You don't need to play that much to know if you love a game, I was caught after just seeing a friend play a game vs the computer, so I don't agree with the OP that we think of it as magical due to the fact that we have played thousands of games.
What puzzles me is why the OP would think it was a good time to tell everyone on a fan site that the game didn't have that feel to her. Eiher you love it or you love something else but at TL everyone is more or less a die hard fan and our response would at best be "Uh okay, you don't love the game as We do, We love it"
I read the first 6 pages and I skimmed over the rest. The work HP put into this thread and his systematic response a couple pages back amazed me. I figured by now you, as well as everyone, would be tired of reading the same post over and over, so I'm going to let the magic speak for itself.
That reaction is not one of nostalgia; it's one of admiration for the strategic brilliance of the player who managed to pull that off, as well as the "magic" of the game expressing itself by allowing such occurrences. The fact that things like that can happen that captivate the educated viewer in awe, is a testament of BW's so called "magic".
Furthermore, I completely agree with every post Rekrul made in this thread.
Just because you don't see the magic, doesn't mean there's no magic. And lack of a massive following in the overseas community does not equate to lack of magic in the game itself. Basically your whole argument is a logical fallacy. I can understand it if you think BW doesn't appeal to you personally but there's no basis to argue that the game itself has no magic.
The game that has made thousands of people shed tears of joy, that people work 12 hours a day to do well in, the game that brought us EVER 2004 OSL boxer vs iloveoov finals, lacks magic? I cried like a little bitch when i watched that final, and i wasnt even watching live. If you think BW lacks magic, its because either you lost a lobe or two on your way to writing this hunk of steaming shit, or you never actually fucking bothered to follow the scene and see the truly touching, historical moments.
On November 21 2011 13:02 TheAntZ wrote: The game that has made thousands of people shed tears of joy, that people work 12 hours a day to do well in, the game that brought us EVER 2004 OSL boxer vs iloveoov finals, lacks magic? I cried like a little bitch when i watched that final, and i wasnt even watching live. If you think BW lacks magic, its because either you lost a lobe or two on your way to writing this hunk of steaming shit, or you never actually fucking bothered to follow the scene and see the truly touching, historical moments.
Completely agree with this. Seems like the OP watched like 4 VODs and then wrote this or something. This is laughable to anyone who has actually followed the bw scene at all
I was wondering who bumped this and then I saw maggy0's response. Wow, some people really ought to read some of the responses before they chime in. X-X