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Starcraft Training DBZ Style - Page 7

Blogs > qxc
Post a Reply
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nathangentzen
Profile Joined March 2011
United States41 Posts
October 07 2011 18:45 GMT
#121
All of the negative theory crafting in this thread is a poor approach to a potentially awesome idea. Learn to embrace the madness my friends. You never know until you try. Go go SC2Mapster for that WoW style game, as well.
Thermia
Profile Joined August 2010
United States866 Posts
October 07 2011 18:46 GMT
#122
On October 08 2011 01:47 blagoonga123 wrote:
Maybe vegeta isn't the best character to fixate on. He doesn't really ever win fights.


He might not win fights, but he has a great work ethic.
Sufficiently advanced stupidity is indistinguishable from trolling. IGN: Mierin
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-07 19:05:32
October 07 2011 18:48 GMT
#123
While comparing SC2 to DBZ may be nostalgic and alluring, it is the completely wrong attitude to have towards practice and improvement. For example, a "DBZ Training Method" may make our hands faster through hand-muscle training, but it won't make us into better players. Without a proper mechanical foundation to build upon, we may find ourselves macro'ing quickly, but also very badly. Essentially, Qxc's post confuses training raw strength with training muscle memory.

I may not be a professional SC2 player, but I have nearly two decades of experience in piano and music education. I believe that skills from practicing musical instruments (dexterity, muscle memory, etc.) are much more applicable to SC2 training than say power lifting. As such, I believe we can devise a much better training method by learning from music education, which has been tested and proven over hundreds of years.

When I train to have better mechanics, I am in essence training to have better muscle memory. I want to be able to execute commands on a keyboard without thinking. When I want to inject larvae on three hatcheries, I don't want to think about every key I press. Instead, I want to think "inject", while my hands automatically execute my macro commands.

So how do we train muscle memory? By understanding how a musician approaches a new piece, we can better understand how we can learn to approach learning macro mechanics. For example, when I approach a new piece of music, these are the steps I take:

1) Break up the piece into smaller, simpler sections.
2) Practice each section slowly with an emphasis on proper technique and efficiency.
3) Put all the smaller sections together at a slow tempo.
4) Gradually bring the piece up to proper speed.
5) Polish the finished product.

As you see, learning muscle memory is vastly different than your typical strength training. In fact, if you were to tell any respectable pianist that you get better by playing as fast as possible, you would be the laughing stock of the music world. While "DBZ Training" may be applicable to raw strength training, it is completely counter-productive in improving your mechanics.

So to approach a new build or to learn a new mechanic, we shouldn't try to play as fast as possible. We should take the same approach that a musician does - break down the mechanics and slowly build upon them. If you approach all your builds like this, you'll find yourself with a mechanical fluidity that far surpasses anything you can learn from grinding the ladder.

Perhaps qxc may feel that his mechanics are polished already and that he needs speed training to further improve his game. I do not believe that holds true for the majority of us. Do you think you play as mechanically efficient as Flash or Jaedong? If not, speed training isn't for you.



tl;dr
Practice slowly damnit.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
TedJustice
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
Canada1324 Posts
October 07 2011 19:14 GMT
#124
You could play with weights on your wrists.

Probably wouldn't be healthy, but if you didn't do it for too long it might be ok.
Shaok
Profile Joined October 2010
297 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-07 19:29:03
October 07 2011 19:26 GMT
#125
It would definitely increase beginners and less advanced players. People with high apm (150-200) already will not benefit nearly as much from doing this. New players, however, will definitely be forced to learn how to play fast because the speed has, obviously, been increased. The timings and all that mumbo jumbo people are trying to say would be detrimental to your play are easily learned and are placed in your subconscious when you begin to play many, many, games.

This speed would also give new players the speed to think faster and move faster to accomplish goals that would seem out of reach in standard sc2.
Datum
Profile Joined February 2011
United States371 Posts
October 07 2011 19:30 GMT
#126
Spending months being able to do your larva injects every half-cycle is not a good use of practice time.
Grndr101
Profile Joined March 2011
Belgium125 Posts
October 07 2011 19:35 GMT
#127
In theory it's a great idea, but the truth is that most players don't even give themselves 100% training on fastest speed(see the latest sotg discussion with WhiteRa about 'lazy foreigners').

I think the more practical approach is to, like WhiteRa stated, just be accustomed to play more. Be it 10 games in a row 4 times a day or whatever schedule you want to set for yourself. The truth is that you just need to build more endurance in general if you want to be competing with the rest who do the same.

Not everyone has the ability to play 40 games a day every day, but you can train so you're able to do that.
Note that I'm not implying that foreigner sc players are lazy, but they might not be accustomed to play as much as their Korean counterparts.

On October 08 2011 03:31 YourMom wrote:
what if you play double. like you start with 2 bases or even play a 1v1 with yourself from both sides. wouldn't that be easier to implement and have a similar effect ?


This was a very intresting comment. In a lot of other games this has proven to be effective(mahjong, go, poker, etc..). Even doing this exercise on normal(as compared to fastest) speed I think would have a lot of merit. Not only does it allow you to improve your multitasking, but it trains you to actually see certain timings and situations more clearly.
Tortious_Tortoise
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States944 Posts
October 07 2011 19:38 GMT
#128
People could also just wear 15 pound wrist watches-- or some sort of weight band around their wrists, arms, or even hands (fingerless gloves, perhaps)?

Or, to improve accuracy, play StarCraft 2 with mittens on.
Treating eSports as a social science since 2011; Credo: "The system is never wrong"-- Day9 Daily #400 Part 3
Roflhaxx
Profile Joined April 2010
Korea (South)1244 Posts
October 07 2011 20:11 GMT
#129
On October 08 2011 03:46 Thermia wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2011 01:47 blagoonga123 wrote:
Maybe vegeta isn't the best character to fixate on. He doesn't really ever win fights.


He might not win fights, but he has a great work ethic.

What surprises me the most is that the gel he uses for his hair must be some insanely strong stuff.
A game where the first thing you do is scout with a “worker”. Does that make any sense? Who scouts with a “worker”? That’s like sending out the janitor to perform recon, what general would do that? Retarded game.
EliteSK
Profile Joined April 2010
Korea (South)251 Posts
October 07 2011 20:34 GMT
#130
I can see QXC's point and I sorta see what Hapahauli comes from, being a musician myself.

I feel like this would help to help with muscle memory regarding like openings until maybe the 10 minute mark.

I play ladder games to work on mechanics and openings and build orders.

Sometimes if I learn new build I just want to do the opening over and over again until I'm comfortable with just doing it without having to go through the mental checklist, thinking if I forgot something, so I may want this for solo BO testing so a 10 minute game time opening may be done in 6/7 minutes instead of 8/9 minutes at faster speed.
blueblimp
Profile Joined May 2009
Canada297 Posts
October 07 2011 20:40 GMT
#131
A difference between music and starcraft is that it's pretty well understood what is the "best" mechanics for each musical instrument, so slow practice can aim to execute those mechanics perfectly. That seems less true of starcraft.
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
October 07 2011 21:06 GMT
#132
On October 08 2011 05:40 blueblimp wrote:
A difference between music and starcraft is that it's pretty well understood what is the "best" mechanics for each musical instrument, so slow practice can aim to execute those mechanics perfectly. That seems less true of starcraft.


I completely disagree. I think it that the proper way to use a keyboard is pretty well established. It is equally well established what buttons you need to press to macro in Starcraft.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
MageKirby
Profile Joined July 2009
United States535 Posts
October 07 2011 21:29 GMT
#133
It'll prolly get you to use different hotkeys more often and possibly help with macro.

But I have doubts on micro. Micro has a lot on timing. So if you speed things up, you will just get accustomed to the micro timing on that speed setting and do bad on regular speed.
Roaches
Profile Joined February 2011
Denmark152 Posts
October 07 2011 21:30 GMT
#134
On October 08 2011 06:06 Hapahauli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2011 05:40 blueblimp wrote:
A difference between music and starcraft is that it's pretty well understood what is the "best" mechanics for each musical instrument, so slow practice can aim to execute those mechanics perfectly. That seems less true of starcraft.


I completely disagree. I think it that the proper way to use a keyboard is pretty well established. It is equally well established what buttons you need to press to macro in Starcraft.


If this were true wouldn't every progamer have the same key binds? I doubt they have, not even close.
hi grack
Camail
Profile Joined August 2011
United States1030 Posts
October 07 2011 21:41 GMT
#135
I'm for it, can we please not discuss 'perfection'? Those who play even a single game to perfection are immortalized in that moment, but for the rest of time we need to have professionals who only be amazingly. There isn't a player out there who wouldn't be better with a faster game sense... And even if someone managed to contrive a scenario that did dispute this, make the mod anyway! QXC wants to play it and that should be enough motivation.
http://i.imgur.com/IPxgv.png
Hapahauli
Profile Joined May 2009
United States9305 Posts
October 07 2011 21:42 GMT
#136
On October 08 2011 06:30 Roaches wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2011 06:06 Hapahauli wrote:
On October 08 2011 05:40 blueblimp wrote:
A difference between music and starcraft is that it's pretty well understood what is the "best" mechanics for each musical instrument, so slow practice can aim to execute those mechanics perfectly. That seems less true of starcraft.


I completely disagree. I think it that the proper way to use a keyboard is pretty well established. It is equally well established what buttons you need to press to macro in Starcraft.


If this were true wouldn't every progamer have the same key binds? I doubt they have, not even close.


I'm not making any claims about what key-binds one should use, rather, I'm simply suggesting practice methods. Plus, it is well established for any individual player what their individual key-bind is, and therefore, what they should practice. I simply make suggestions on how they should practice.
a talking rock that sprouts among the waves woosh
LXR
Profile Joined June 2011
357 Posts
October 07 2011 21:42 GMT
#137
Wouldn't this mess up your timing? For example, when stutter stepping?
blueblimp
Profile Joined May 2009
Canada297 Posts
October 07 2011 21:48 GMT
#138
On October 08 2011 06:42 Hapahauli wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 08 2011 06:30 Roaches wrote:
On October 08 2011 06:06 Hapahauli wrote:
On October 08 2011 05:40 blueblimp wrote:
A difference between music and starcraft is that it's pretty well understood what is the "best" mechanics for each musical instrument, so slow practice can aim to execute those mechanics perfectly. That seems less true of starcraft.


I completely disagree. I think it that the proper way to use a keyboard is pretty well established. It is equally well established what buttons you need to press to macro in Starcraft.


If this were true wouldn't every progamer have the same key binds? I doubt they have, not even close.


I'm not making any claims about what key-binds one should use, rather, I'm simply suggesting practice methods. Plus, it is well established for any individual player what their individual key-bind is, and therefore, what they should practice. I simply make suggestions on how they should practice.


That's fair. I really like the analogy to music practice, it's just that... for example, in brood war, a lot of players recommend that Protoss build probes with 0p9p, but I think I've read that Bisu does it with 4p f3-p f4-p. That's a pretty big difference, and it'd be a strange use of time to get perfect at one method when the other method is better.
Praetorial
Profile Blog Joined May 2011
United States4241 Posts
October 07 2011 22:17 GMT
#139
I clicked on this without seeing "DBZ" in the title. Now that I read it, it makes a surprising amount of sense.
FOR GREAT JUSTICE! Bans for the ban gods!
ymir233
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States8275 Posts
October 07 2011 22:23 GMT
#140
I think having it faster in the lategame AFTER doing your cookie-cutter build might be good (for the obvious macro reasons) - however, when you're actually doing your build, especially if it's precise, switching back between real game times and sped-up times might be a bitch.
Come motivate me to be cynical about animus at http://infinityandone.blogspot.com/ // Stork proxy gates are beautiful.
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