Starcraft Training DBZ Style - Page 5

TORTOISE

United States515 Posts

October 07 2011 12:44 GMT

#81

ILY qxc but if Lassie keeps talking about hyberbolic time chambers then I reckon it's a bout time we took her out back and put her down.

theBOOCH

United States832 Posts

October 07 2011 12:51 GMT

#82

I never really watched DBZ all that much, but I remember that training montage. Incidentally, one of my guitar teachers in college did some of the voices for DBZ at Funimation. Not incidentally, I'm a guitar player, and while I don't really play very much anymore, I know how to practice and improve, and I'm capable of playing pretty much anything. One of the things that's been beaten into my head over the years is that to get better, you don't try to play something faster. You play it more slowly, slowly enough to not make any mistakes. And you keep playing it slowly until you're ready to play it a little faster, etc. Honestly that's the fastest way to improve.

Bashnek

Australia895 Posts

October 07 2011 12:55 GMT

#83

it could work... but only if you had Weights on your fingers, Piccolo-style.

R4iD

Canada142 Posts

October 07 2011 12:58 GMT

#84

another thing of interest, many players use hand warmers at tournaments because cold hands = slower /stiff movements.....so if you practice in a very cold or perhaps /chilled environment. and get good with it. when your hands are warm would you not feel/ actually just be faster?

Athrun

Philippines16 Posts

October 07 2011 13:06 GMT

#85

I think the naysayers are being overly hasty in dismissing this idea. It is definitely worth a try, and I am willing to wager that the benefits will outweigh its drawbacks.

OSM.OneManArmy

United States509 Posts

October 07 2011 13:25 GMT

#86

oh qxc you troll <333
SUPER SAIYAJIN!!!!

bloken

22 Posts

October 07 2011 13:25 GMT

#87

It's radical new thinking like this which "can" change everything. Indeed most new ideas have their skeptics and rightfully so. However, it's up to those who aren't to prove them wrong and do the best they can to prove their idea. Don't underestimate the human brain, over many decades many many sports have slowly sped up. Usually a game change as a result of faster/stronger athletes being able to execute better/faster strategies etc.. etc..If you were to play on say 10% faster for a month, then 15% or 20% faster and draw it out over a long period it would lessen any effects of cutting corners. It would require a lot of people on a pro level, playing often to test properly.

Classysaurus

United States78 Posts

October 07 2011 13:32 GMT

#88

The problem with the idea to play at a faster game speed is that it's all relative to your opponent. If you don't have an opponent that can play nearly as good as he can play at normal ("faster") speed, then all you're doing is getting good at a faster game. Yes, you'll probably exercise your mechanics, but all you're really doing is figuring out what aspects of the game to focus your attention to at that speed. You might get marginally better at micro if you decide to focus on microing in battles, or you'll just say "fuck it, it's more advantageous to multi-prong drop since my opponent can't handle it as well as before". You'll learn to cut the corners you know can be cut, but I'll bet you had a general idea about what to prioritize before the inception of this idea. You will be deciding what to put your APM into as opposed to being able to handle both originally - which, yes will eventually get your APM higher, but won't translate as well in other than mechanics and SOME strategy/theory that you probably already knew. Basically, you're learning a new game, and figuring out the best ways to exploit the new game while hopefully improving mechanics. Now, if you can find a player who can at least somewhat match their "faster" skill on the proposed "fastestestest" you wish to train on, I don't know for sure how much the effort will pay off, unless you force yourself to play as you normally would, and not exploit the fact that your opponent is playing in the same conditions as you. Just my two cents.

Edit: I guess the idea of training in higher gravity in DBZ wasn't to do anything but get you physically more fit, as opposed to making you better at combat... so in that respect, if you aim merely to improve your mechanics, then yeah, this will work as long as you deliberately keep yourself from exploiting the environment against your opponent. Either way, anyone decides to do this, I sincerely wish you the best of luck, and hope it works.

saltywet

Hong Kong1316 Posts

October 07 2011 13:38 GMT

#89

On October 07 2011 15:58 Endymion wrote:
The problem is that if you train at 50% higher speed, you'll start cutting corners for 50% play, and when you have to play on standard speed you'll be playing incorrectly. There isn't a short cut to practicing, you just have to play a lot and get better imo. But if you want to then go for it, it'll make you easier to beat in my opinion.

this problem is easy to circumvent... just play at a slightly faster speed until you can play without cutting corners, then increase the speed

obviously you dont add 50% speed off the bat when you're training

Phil Phoenix

United States100 Posts

October 07 2011 13:41 GMT

#90

I would give this a shot. I think it would help someone improve in some areas of their game (decision making, efficiency in terms of clicking and whatnot) but obviously wouldn't help as much with learning timings and things that are dependent on the unmodified metagame. If someone is able to create a mod like this I think it would be great to try!

Antisocialmunky

United States5913 Posts

October 07 2011 13:47 GMT

#91

Actually, one way I thought of training was using the handicap settings to increase damage so you have to straight micro better/faster.

NLBrowncoat

Netherlands23 Posts

October 07 2011 13:53 GMT

#92

I remember accidentally having set a custom game on normal speed, I felt like I could bake a cake, take a shower, watch some tv and play at the same time

But its a good idea, however it takes 2 to tango in this game so to really improve you would also need >= skilled opponents. Cuz just like any other saiyan you only get stronger by being beaten to near death by a stronger opponent

jared1259

United States63 Posts

October 07 2011 14:08 GMT

#93

On October 07 2011 16:27 Endymion wrote:

Show nested quote +

On October 07 2011 16:21 Herculix wrote:

On October 07 2011 15:58 Endymion wrote:
The problem is that if you train at 50% higher speed, you'll start cutting corners for 50% play, and when you have to play on standard speed you'll be playing incorrectly. There isn't a short cut to practicing, you just have to play a lot and get better imo. But if you want to then go for it, it'll make you easier to beat in my opinion.

Playing vs the best in korea is different than playing a different game. That would be like saying if you played 1k games of BW instead of 1k games of SC2, you would be better off with the BW practice? Your apm allocation would be all off if you played on increased speed, and even if you supposedly reached the equilibrium in APM with the new level it's not like you would drop down to standard with an extra 150 apm ready for executing more maneuvers because the extra apm gained would be from "standard play" in +50%

Standard Equilibrium BW APM
400

Assumed Standard Equlibrium BW APM +50% speed
600 ( 400 + [400x.5])

With your practice IF you could reach 600, you wouldn't be improving anything but APM, and when you hit it the 600 apm would be for a standard game. So you're saying you would have 200 extra APM when you returned to fastest BW, which you would. But it you wouldn't know how to use it. In context of your example, vegita may be 300x stronger/faster, but he'll still need to put the 300x amount of work into it utilizing it. So for every extra point of APM that you earn, you still need to learn how to allocate that point of APM, it doesn't come naturally.

TL;DR it's do-able, but a completely inefficient way to allocate your practice time.

actually, that's not really how it works. you end up with such faster macro that there is more time spent twiddling your thumbs, and unless you're an idiot or something you quickly realize you can spend that time moving units around. ever played on normal? i'm pretty sure certain campaign difficulties are on normal and it really feels like child's play.

You're telling me that if you went from playing BW on fastest to playing BW on normal on iccup you would have better micro/macro in a long game on normal? I don't believe you at all, I've tried playing on normal and the differences in how it plays out are super frustrating. In theory what you're saying is correct, but it feels completely different, and you still won't know how to effectively allocate the APM. You still have to relearn to use the APM if you want to use it correctly, but if you don't believe me then you can feel free to try to improve using this method then we can 1v1 and test it out.

Its funny to me that this went so quickly into an APM discussion when the OP had no mention of APM. It's not so hard to move your fingers fast enough for starcraft, any serious musician isn't too far off. But seeing a dropship on the minimap and reacting in time without letting your macro slip is a whole lot harder. Even at 10% faster speeds, split second decisions and the reactions they require will get harder.

There are different ways to train and improve. Some people like to meticulously practice in the precise conditions and Endymion i'm betting that's you. Some people like (like saiyans) need somebody or something to come along kick there ass and raise the bar. Its just different styles.

novabossa

United States350 Posts

October 07 2011 14:10 GMT

#94

Time to break some scouters! RAWR

VPVash

United States139 Posts

October 07 2011 14:18 GMT

#95

qxc now that you made a DBZ reference....you're now the man. Even though it's Vegeta and he's annoying it's all good haha.

mordek

United States12705 Posts

October 07 2011 14:25 GMT

#96

qxc. So baller.

What would happen if you got used to playing 25% increased speed... then when you played Fastest like normal it would feel like playing at Normal when used to fastest. It's agonizing!

On October 07 2011 22:47 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Actually, one way I thought of training was using the handicap settings to increase damage so you have to straight micro better/faster.

As other people have brought up issues like inject timings, this would just result in bad engagement choices. You'd be learning when to fight and when to run incorrectly

4rChon

150 Posts

October 07 2011 14:35 GMT

#97

I think it would be better to use the time spent on developing a faster game on developing a better A.I.

Antisocialmunky

United States5913 Posts

October 07 2011 14:37 GMT

#98

On October 07 2011 23:25 mordek wrote:
qxc. So baller.

What would happen if you got used to playing 25% increased speed... then when you played Fastest like normal it would feel like playing at Normal when used to fastest. It's agonizing!

Show nested quote +

As other people have brought up issues like inject timings, this would just result in bad engagement choices. You'd be learning when to fight and when to run incorrectly

Its more for just straight micro practice and nothing else.

17Sphynx17

580 Posts

October 07 2011 14:38 GMT

#99

Loving the reference or analogy in terms of training but I would think that another way of approaching training is battling it out with multiple opponents (2 or more). I think others have stated this in this thread also.

What would happen is you would make every action, unit, building and time you have to be as efficient as you can against your opponents.

It is like 1 GM Rank against 2 Master Rank. That way you could develop unit control more and tactics to engage from the most effective angle while dealing the most damage for the least amount of losses.

It's either that or 1 GM against 1 GM but with the the person who wants to develop having a handicap of 75% maybe? It tries to maximize the effectiveness of the player in all facets of the game.

Difficult, but I think most GM Progamers are very capable of training in that condition to further develop themselves to a certain extent. But this shouldn't be the full focus of the training as it would greatly alter perceived attack timings from opponents and builds to consider.

Just my two cents. =)

mordek

United States12705 Posts

October 07 2011 14:55 GMT

#100

On October 07 2011 23:37 Antisocialmunky wrote:

Show nested quote +

Its more for just straight micro practice and nothing else.

Well I guess describe to me what you mean by straight micro practice. I feel like how/when to engage is just as important if not more than how quickly you move your marines around to keep them alive. That useful but you can just use the marine split challenge mod and add some other types of engagements too (like Morrow's Micro map).

The OP made it sound like qxc wanted to train with more difficulty on all aspects of the game at once. You might as well just have more difficult amounts/types of units to micro against but keep all the stats the same. I feel like the split second decision making you need to have to know when to retreat or chase would be broken by inaccurate unit stats. I'm sure it would help but it may hinder decision making which I think can be just as important as the handspeed to micro.

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