On October 07 2011 15:58 Endymion wrote: The problem is that if you train at 50% higher speed, you'll start cutting corners for 50% play, and when you have to play on standard speed you'll be playing incorrectly. There isn't a short cut to practicing, you just have to play a lot and get better imo. But if you want to then go for it, it'll make you easier to beat in my opinion.
Playing vs the best in korea is different than playing a different game. That would be like saying if you played 1k games of BW instead of 1k games of SC2, you would be better off with the BW practice? Your apm allocation would be all off if you played on increased speed, and even if you supposedly reached the equilibrium in APM with the new level it's not like you would drop down to standard with an extra 150 apm ready for executing more maneuvers because the extra apm gained would be from "standard play" in +50%
With your practice IF you could reach 600, you wouldn't be improving anything but APM, and when you hit it the 600 apm would be for a standard game. So you're saying you would have 200 extra APM when you returned to fastest BW, which you would. But it you wouldn't know how to use it. In context of your example, vegita may be 300x stronger/faster, but he'll still need to put the 300x amount of work into it utilizing it. So for every extra point of APM that you earn, you still need to learn how to allocate that point of APM, it doesn't come naturally.
TL;DR it's do-able, but a completely inefficient way to allocate your practice time.
actually, that's not really how it works. you end up with such faster macro that there is more time spent twiddling your thumbs, and unless you're an idiot or something you quickly realize you can spend that time moving units around. ever played on normal? i'm pretty sure certain campaign difficulties are on normal and it really feels like child's play.
I think it would be the same as us going and playing a game in SC2 on normal speed. There would seem like so much more time to do things. You would never feel flustered, micro'ing would become easier, you would check your buildings more frequently.
I can't see this being bad for play, except maybe timings in your head, but thats why you can't 100% train like this. Would be good specific Macro and Micro training though imo
Edit: This
On October 07 2011 16:21 Herculix wrote: actually, that's not really how it works. you end up with such faster macro that there is more time spent twiddling your thumbs, and unless you're an idiot or something you quickly realize you can spend that time moving units around. ever played on normal? i'm pretty sure certain campaign difficulties are on normal and it really feels like child's play.
On October 07 2011 15:58 Endymion wrote: The problem is that if you train at 50% higher speed, you'll start cutting corners for 50% play, and when you have to play on standard speed you'll be playing incorrectly. There isn't a short cut to practicing, you just have to play a lot and get better imo. But if you want to then go for it, it'll make you easier to beat in my opinion.
Playing vs the best in korea is different than playing a different game. That would be like saying if you played 1k games of BW instead of 1k games of SC2, you would be better off with the BW practice? Your apm allocation would be all off if you played on increased speed, and even if you supposedly reached the equilibrium in APM with the new level it's not like you would drop down to standard with an extra 150 apm ready for executing more maneuvers because the extra apm gained would be from "standard play" in +50%
With your practice IF you could reach 600, you wouldn't be improving anything but APM, and when you hit it the 600 apm would be for a standard game. So you're saying you would have 200 extra APM when you returned to fastest BW, which you would. But it you wouldn't know how to use it. In context of your example, vegita may be 300x stronger/faster, but he'll still need to put the 300x amount of work into it utilizing it. So for every extra point of APM that you earn, you still need to learn how to allocate that point of APM, it doesn't come naturally.
TL;DR it's do-able, but a completely inefficient way to allocate your practice time.
actually, that's not really how it works. you end up with such faster macro that there is more time spent twiddling your thumbs, and unless you're an idiot or something you quickly realize you can spend that time moving units around. ever played on normal? i'm pretty sure certain campaign difficulties are on normal and it really feels like child's play.
You're telling me that if you went from playing BW on fastest to playing BW on normal on iccup you would have better micro/macro in a long game on normal? I don't believe you at all, I've tried playing on normal and the differences in how it plays out are super frustrating. In theory what you're saying is correct, but it feels completely different, and you still won't know how to effectively allocate the APM. You still have to relearn to use the APM if you want to use it correctly, but if you don't believe me then you can feel free to try to improve using this method then we can 1v1 and test it out.
Your timing would be all off A marine that finishes in 15 real seconds would finish in 12 real seconds and you would get used to that. I played on Normal speed once, it was way too weird and -I couldn't do anything right, it just feels so wrong.
I once made a sc2 custom game for my friend and I to practice on normal on accident. We played it out but it was extremely frustrating. I kept wanting to build probes before their build time was up, I would send probes too early or too late to build building. My sense of warpgate cycles was compeltely off. Micro felt unnatural and weird because of the different timing.
I think in a game that hinges or muscle memory and timing, playing on a different speed than what is used for competition will have negative side effects that far outweigh an increase in APM.
In one of Grubby's vlogs from korea he talks about the ogs coach telling him that he plays too slow. When Grubby asked him how to get faster the coach told him, "just play faster."
I am no pro but I think the coach is right. Deliberate practice is much more effective than just playing games and hoping to get better. If you want to play faster, then just deliberately focus on playing faster.
you're better off, I think, by just forcing yourself to do more stuff.
Currently I'm training myself to execute my basic macro faster by playing strategies that revolve around constant use of phoenixes. Phoenixes take a lot of attention to control at even a basic level, so unless you want your macro to fall to absolute shit, or lose your phoenixes, you have to be able to do it all much more quickly than normal.
really neat idea but i dont see how it will help much. it works for vegeta and goku because they have mastered their fighting ability at Earth's gravity. Thus, they can "move up" to the next level. However, in our case, we cannot even keep up with the current speed and we already miss so many things. Even the pros can never play perfectly at this speed. So increasing the game speed even more would only hurt.
The day we have mastered the current speed, is the day we should ramp up the speed. not now though.
Part of me wants to think you've already done this to some extent when you had trolls non-stop message you on stream during ladder games. Imagine if you had someone obsing everyone of your games and going "Supply depot" or "defend 6'o clock" or "next upgrade" etc, but substituted that for an automated alert system to instill timings concretely. Only problem with that is how dynamic every game is..
Maybe an efficient way of getting more out of your practice is to train your conscious mind to be subconscious when it needs to be with very specific scenarios. For example, when taking new bases, always send units to clear the "scouts" spotting for when you expand, or location hotkey every base and check them all every 30 seconds.
I though there was a map where everything was 16x speed of normal or something? so it should be easily possible to do that? and yeah like 5-10% and gradually increasing would seem more reasonable ^^
I think best would be to play against 2-3 people using shared unit control that would constantly harass you with two separate armies while the other guy macros for them. You could probably even set this up in a normal custom game though a mod would probably be easier in the long run.
This reminds me of when I trained for DDR first then started to play ITG(In The Groove) DDR I was able to be able to pass songs on hard by day 3, though it was a 7 step expert song, I was able to pass it. By the time I was done training and got there I fell sick for 7 days straight and was coughing up blood, after I got better though I was much healthier, if you exercise too much and surpass your limits a lot, your body can't protect itself from infection or germs of any sort very well.
Later on I tried to do ITG, which in comparison to DDR is incredibly hard. DDR is for babies when compares to ITG.
DDR hardest song:
Itg: Piece of Poetry, harder than any and all songs combined in DDR.(This isn't even the hardest thing in ITG, I came close to passing this myself 10 steps away.)
This is a marathon song in ITG (Looks easy even =B)
This is just a comparison, but what qxc says is right. By practicing on something like that it would improve your gameplay overall as the training would tax you much more than playing. But one side effect to go from harder to slower is readjusting at times. I've actually failed an 8 step on DDR from playing it wrong =B even though I've passed one winged angel on ITG. One Winged Angel has 1900+ steps in it hardest songs in DDR don't even have 1k steps.
Anyway, I'd love a program like this myself, I'd use it to increase my effective apm. As I hate to spam APM and would rather just do what I have to do.
Hahahah. I had a similar thought inspired by DBZ a while a go:
Weighted training. So would you weight down your hands with some weights? I guess so but I was more thinking of mental weights. Like being drunk.
Imagine if you could work your way into the GM league, constantly drunk. Then when you enter a tournament or whatever, play completely sober. Suddenly everything would move soo much slower and decision making would be soo much clearer.
That's the theorey anyway. Haven't put it into practice yet.
I think your idea might be connected to the origins of SC and BW being played faster from "normal" to "fastest" settings, but I'm not very knowledgeable in that area.
I am however, under the impression that the proper equivalent of the idea you're trying to propose would be something more akin to the "team melee" option. If I recall correctly, some BW progamers would train to combat Flash's unparalleled multitasking abilities by using team melee and having 2 progamers take control of 1 Terran increasing the difficulty of their training.
The same idea carries over in SC2 in that you want to be training against opponents that can do more within the standard competitive time frame (e.g. "faster" setting) and not play against an opponent that doesn't do anything more, but that time simply moves faster. The difference could be demonstrated in a player gaining more training benefit from playing Korean ladder players who seemingly have "more stuff" and "better control" than their AM counter-parts. If this player would have adopted your idea, then he would simply be playing the same AM ladder players who have "less stuff" and "less control" but everything would just be abbreviated and he would still not be able to handle the Korean players.
Being that SC2 is less mechanically demanding than BW, weighted training could take a bigger emphasis on preparation and decision making rather than pure mechanics. For example, instead of focusing on APM, focusing on unit control (e.g. similar to unit tester maps we currently have, but instead have "modified tournament maps" where a player could start with X number of Y units and play out a common scenario over and over again like holding off/executing a cheese, etc. OR even load the same mid/late-game scenario with different units to see what a good unit match-up/potential timing could be).
If I'm not mistaken, players like Flash spent periods in their careers where they played less games than their counter-parts and focused more on thinking through situations so their thought process and decision making would be refined along with their mechanics. It goes without saying though that, "less" in this case is strictly a relative thing. Like the history of the human race is a very short period of time relative to the existence of the universe, sort of relative thing.
EPT
A marine that finishes in 15 real seconds would finish in 12 real seconds and you would get used to that.
