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On April 13 2011 08:17 RoieTRS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 08:14 zeru wrote:On April 13 2011 08:03 Apolo wrote:
boesthius actually it's not as simple as"they play to win". As i've said before, the money for the prizes come from viewers. The players are actually entertainers, in a way like comedians, singers, etc, and thats why all of these have "fans". The reason why TLO seems to always be the fan favourite is because he deviates from boring play. Players like him keep more viewers coming by making them interested, expecting what crazy new stuff will TLO do this time, instead, "oh look standard play. I'll come back in 5mins to see who wins," Ofc i'm exageratting, but this is to say, yes they play to win, but also to entertain otherwise, no viewers, no money, and with no money at stake, they lose their job.
Still, part of this entertaining job, a big part, is the game itself. If boring standard play is more effective, ofc it will be seen more often. That's why it's also on blizzards hand to make it as appealing as possible to players to be able to have exciting games, to attract viewers --> money --> players. They players are not entertainers. sorry. not sure where you got that from. Yes they are.
No they are not.
They are primarily Athletes.
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On April 13 2011 08:17 RoieTRS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 08:14 zeru wrote:On April 13 2011 08:03 Apolo wrote:
boesthius actually it's not as simple as"they play to win". As i've said before, the money for the prizes come from viewers. The players are actually entertainers, in a way like comedians, singers, etc, and thats why all of these have "fans". The reason why TLO seems to always be the fan favourite is because he deviates from boring play. Players like him keep more viewers coming by making them interested, expecting what crazy new stuff will TLO do this time, instead, "oh look standard play. I'll come back in 5mins to see who wins," Ofc i'm exageratting, but this is to say, yes they play to win, but also to entertain otherwise, no viewers, no money, and with no money at stake, they lose their job.
Still, part of this entertaining job, a big part, is the game itself. If boring standard play is more effective, ofc it will be seen more often. That's why it's also on blizzards hand to make it as appealing as possible to players to be able to have exciting games, to attract viewers --> money --> players. They players are not entertainers. sorry. not sure where you got that from. Yes they are.
Haha the players are entertainers to the extent that they may do an in-game celebration after they're 100% certain they've won... the same way a basketball team plays to win and a player will only entertain on a breakaway and do a cool looking dunk if he's 100% certain he won't be stopped.
Note that the Harlem Globetrotters don't actually play in the NBA, and for good reason.
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On April 13 2011 08:03 Apolo wrote:
boesthius actually it's not as simple as"they play to win". As i've said before, the money for the prizes come from viewers. The players are actually entertainers, in a way like comedians, singers, etc, and thats why all of these have "fans". The reason why TLO seems to always be the fan favourite is because he deviates from boring play. Players like him keep more viewers coming by making them interested, expecting what crazy new stuff will TLO do this time, instead, "oh look standard play. I'll come back in 5mins to see who wins," Ofc i'm exageratting, but this is to say, yes they play to win, but also to entertain otherwise, no viewers, no money, and with no money at stake, they lose their job.
Still, part of this entertaining job, a big part, is the game itself. If boring standard play is more effective, ofc it will be seen more often. That's why it's also on blizzards hand to make it as appealing as possible to players to be able to have exciting games, to attract viewers --> money --> players.
Yes, it is that simple. You put the money out there for the players to win, and if you don't like how they go about doing it, stop watching.
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On April 13 2011 08:04 boesthius wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 08:01 Longshank wrote:On April 13 2011 07:51 boesthius wrote:On April 13 2011 07:47 Longshank wrote:
Seriously, the day people WOULDN'T be upset about seeing their favorite player knocked out by silly cheese is the day I'd be worried about e-sport as a concept. Stop whining about whining already, it's healthy and crucial to the scene that people actually do care. There's a difference between getting upset about your favorite player losing and expressing it, and then calling someone a faggot who doesn't deserve to win on top of making remarks towards the game that are just simply untrue. I'm all for people being upset about stuff like their favorite player being knocked out - I was livid and then verrrrry sad when stork got 3-0'd by Fantasy in the latest OSL finals. I'm upset whenever nony loses a match/tourney/etc. I, however, understand why they lost and the reasons being are the player's fault for losing. So that was 2 or 3 out of thousands browsing the LR thread. Way to make a hen of a feather. Did you not read the LR thread? For a good 30 pages or so it was post after post after post after post of garbage. Report after report flooded in for this, and it's a nightmare trying to moderate it; let alone incredibly disappointing to see after being ingrained into a community so much - specifically Teamliquid. Way to be overly condescending about an issue I feel strongly about.
Yes I read it and very few resorted to name calling. But if you object to people using the LR thread to vent their immediate frustration then you should consider not allowing LR threads on TL. People were upset and angry but that's 100% a good thing.
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On April 13 2011 08:20 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 08:17 RoieTRS wrote:On April 13 2011 08:14 zeru wrote:On April 13 2011 08:03 Apolo wrote:
boesthius actually it's not as simple as"they play to win". As i've said before, the money for the prizes come from viewers. The players are actually entertainers, in a way like comedians, singers, etc, and thats why all of these have "fans". The reason why TLO seems to always be the fan favourite is because he deviates from boring play. Players like him keep more viewers coming by making them interested, expecting what crazy new stuff will TLO do this time, instead, "oh look standard play. I'll come back in 5mins to see who wins," Ofc i'm exageratting, but this is to say, yes they play to win, but also to entertain otherwise, no viewers, no money, and with no money at stake, they lose their job.
Still, part of this entertaining job, a big part, is the game itself. If boring standard play is more effective, ofc it will be seen more often. That's why it's also on blizzards hand to make it as appealing as possible to players to be able to have exciting games, to attract viewers --> money --> players. They players are not entertainers. sorry. not sure where you got that from. Yes they are. Do you see football players as entertainers, what about poker, or chess? What makes you think they are entertainers. They play as their job, for the money, getting fans is just a side effect of being good at their job. It has nothing to do with being an entertainer.
Do you think TLO was invited to this event due to his results or due to his fan base and abilities of being an entertaining player?
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They're probably angry for White-Ra not scouting his base. MC did a build that should have lost to a safe player and White-Ra didn't play safe enough. Plus he didn't pay enough attention to realise he didn't need to scout non-diagonal positions.
I didn't watch the games so I wouldn't know. Still, I'd guess that people wanted White-Ra to fulfil the Cinderella story and represent the non-Korean players to take MC out. MC was always the villain in their mindset then, and this belief must have seemed to be vindicated with MC's blatant cheese and White-Ra's tragic mis-scouting.
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On April 13 2011 08:17 RoieTRS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 08:14 zeru wrote:On April 13 2011 08:03 Apolo wrote:
boesthius actually it's not as simple as"they play to win". As i've said before, the money for the prizes come from viewers. The players are actually entertainers, in a way like comedians, singers, etc, and thats why all of these have "fans". The reason why TLO seems to always be the fan favourite is because he deviates from boring play. Players like him keep more viewers coming by making them interested, expecting what crazy new stuff will TLO do this time, instead, "oh look standard play. I'll come back in 5mins to see who wins," Ofc i'm exageratting, but this is to say, yes they play to win, but also to entertain otherwise, no viewers, no money, and with no money at stake, they lose their job.
Still, part of this entertaining job, a big part, is the game itself. If boring standard play is more effective, ofc it will be seen more often. That's why it's also on blizzards hand to make it as appealing as possible to players to be able to have exciting games, to attract viewers --> money --> players. They players are not entertainers. sorry. not sure where you got that from. Yes they are.
Fuck it then, lets base the whole thing on wrestling.
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To anybody complaining about entertainment value vs cheese, do you even watch physical sports? If you consider a series to be somewhat like a game of basketball or football or WHATEVER, there are always "dull" moments during each of these games, but if you're a responsible and educated viewer (which you should be if you're on this website and watching a niche game like SC2) you would understand that there are subtleties that go on that you don't know about.
In football, coaches freeze kickers. In basketball, the opposing teams foul each other intentionally to stop the clock. In soccer, people can handball deflect an incoming goal (although illegal sort of). In baseball pitchers walk batters who have a great reputation. Whatever the sport, there are moments of subtlety; it's up to the viewer to be responsible, not a sport losing it's integrity to be "more entertaining." Whatever that means right?
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On April 13 2011 08:23 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 08:20 zeru wrote:On April 13 2011 08:17 RoieTRS wrote:On April 13 2011 08:14 zeru wrote:On April 13 2011 08:03 Apolo wrote:
boesthius actually it's not as simple as"they play to win". As i've said before, the money for the prizes come from viewers. The players are actually entertainers, in a way like comedians, singers, etc, and thats why all of these have "fans". The reason why TLO seems to always be the fan favourite is because he deviates from boring play. Players like him keep more viewers coming by making them interested, expecting what crazy new stuff will TLO do this time, instead, "oh look standard play. I'll come back in 5mins to see who wins," Ofc i'm exageratting, but this is to say, yes they play to win, but also to entertain otherwise, no viewers, no money, and with no money at stake, they lose their job.
Still, part of this entertaining job, a big part, is the game itself. If boring standard play is more effective, ofc it will be seen more often. That's why it's also on blizzards hand to make it as appealing as possible to players to be able to have exciting games, to attract viewers --> money --> players. They players are not entertainers. sorry. not sure where you got that from. Yes they are. Do you see football players as entertainers, what about poker, or chess? What makes you think they are entertainers. They play as their job, for the money, getting fans is just a side effect of being good at their job. It has nothing to do with being an entertainer. Do you think TLO was invited to this event due to his results or due to his fan base and abilities of being an entertaining player?
Do you think he got this fanbase because he was doing different stuff from other people or because he did stuff that other people did not think if and WON with them?
Nobody would care for TLO if he would be a diamond leaguer doing "creative" stuff.
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The LR thread was fucking ridiculous.
After Idra/MC, it was balance bitching, and after MC/White-Ra it was everyone bashing on MC.
It's possible to dislike a player and still respect his capabilities as a player.
Really annoying to read about. ESPECIALLY since this seems to be turning into a trend. Badmouthing something you don't like, such as a match-up, or a player, instead of cheering or ;~; 'ing after a game.
People need to enjoy watching SC2 more, instead of hating life every time they do.
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On April 13 2011 08:27 zeru wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 08:23 Longshank wrote:On April 13 2011 08:20 zeru wrote:On April 13 2011 08:17 RoieTRS wrote:On April 13 2011 08:14 zeru wrote:On April 13 2011 08:03 Apolo wrote:
boesthius actually it's not as simple as"they play to win". As i've said before, the money for the prizes come from viewers. The players are actually entertainers, in a way like comedians, singers, etc, and thats why all of these have "fans". The reason why TLO seems to always be the fan favourite is because he deviates from boring play. Players like him keep more viewers coming by making them interested, expecting what crazy new stuff will TLO do this time, instead, "oh look standard play. I'll come back in 5mins to see who wins," Ofc i'm exageratting, but this is to say, yes they play to win, but also to entertain otherwise, no viewers, no money, and with no money at stake, they lose their job.
Still, part of this entertaining job, a big part, is the game itself. If boring standard play is more effective, ofc it will be seen more often. That's why it's also on blizzards hand to make it as appealing as possible to players to be able to have exciting games, to attract viewers --> money --> players. They players are not entertainers. sorry. not sure where you got that from. Yes they are. Do you see football players as entertainers, what about poker, or chess? What makes you think they are entertainers. They play as their job, for the money, getting fans is just a side effect of being good at their job. It has nothing to do with being an entertainer. Do you think TLO was invited to this event due to his results or due to his fan base and abilities of being an entertaining player? I think you would enjoy WWE, maybe starcraft isn't your thing if you don't understand that the players play the game they play to win money.
Uhm, no, what gave you that idea? I hate WWE, I also hate the fact that ¨fan base and popularity is such an obstacle for many top players to get invited to events like these. Popularity seems just as important as skill and that sucks. A player like Kas should have been here, unfortunately the invites were sent out before his splash in TSL3 when he became known to the masses. That he's been dominating the EU for months already doesn't matter. It's still the reality.
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Netherlands2549 Posts
If your opponent leaves the game before you do you deserver to win the game simple as that.
Even if you got outplayed on every single decision in the game and still won it teams you did make the right decision on the best moment possible.
A win is a win a loss is loss.
It doesn't matter at all how although longer games are obv a bit nicer to watch.
Specifically about game 5 of white-ra vs MC:
It was mainly white-ra's fault, a 15k game and you don't scout at 9 pylon in a PvP? come on.
He also went to to the horizontal position first which isn't even a possible spawning location if I remember correctly, also lost time.
He didn't scout his base (Naniwa would have stopped this /facerollmode) just saying.
Off course MC took a big risk but White-ra played EXACTLY into his cards with every move he made.
So GG deserved win for MC
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On April 13 2011 08:23 Longshank wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 08:20 zeru wrote:On April 13 2011 08:17 RoieTRS wrote:On April 13 2011 08:14 zeru wrote:On April 13 2011 08:03 Apolo wrote:
boesthius actually it's not as simple as"they play to win". As i've said before, the money for the prizes come from viewers. The players are actually entertainers, in a way like comedians, singers, etc, and thats why all of these have "fans". The reason why TLO seems to always be the fan favourite is because he deviates from boring play. Players like him keep more viewers coming by making them interested, expecting what crazy new stuff will TLO do this time, instead, "oh look standard play. I'll come back in 5mins to see who wins," Ofc i'm exageratting, but this is to say, yes they play to win, but also to entertain otherwise, no viewers, no money, and with no money at stake, they lose their job.
Still, part of this entertaining job, a big part, is the game itself. If boring standard play is more effective, ofc it will be seen more often. That's why it's also on blizzards hand to make it as appealing as possible to players to be able to have exciting games, to attract viewers --> money --> players. They players are not entertainers. sorry. not sure where you got that from. Yes they are. Do you see football players as entertainers, what about poker, or chess? What makes you think they are entertainers. They play as their job, for the money, getting fans is just a side effect of being good at their job. It has nothing to do with being an entertainer. Do you think TLO was invited to this event due to his results or due to his fan base and abilities of being an entertaining player?
TLO was invited for both reasons. First of all, he is a top player (5th at recent MLG) and second of all he is entertaining and popular.
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On April 13 2011 07:19 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 06:49 hugman wrote:
So I said this like twice already, but I think the tennis analogy of using an underhand serve on a match point is the perfect example. Is that respected in tennis? No.
MC can win like that but I'm not going to respect him for showing such a boring deciding game. Congratulations, this is the worst analogy I have ever heard on this website. Impressive. Edit: If players artificially created epic games, they wouldn't be epic. The thing that makes them epic is that they got to such a stalemated, drawn out situation, while trying to fucking murder each other every second of the match.
Chill, you're awesome, but I disagree - I don't think it's that bad of analogy, I just have a different reaction.
In 1989, a 17-year-old Michael Chang was in the quarterfinals of the French Open against world #1 Ivan Lendl. Dropping the first two sets in a best of five, he clawed his way back into a deciding fifth set. At a pivotal point late in the set, having watched Lendl play his serves deep and hammer them, Chang tried something different:
"Still cramping, still barely able to stand, the shot was a simple underhanded serve, a quick flick that took Lendl completely off-guard. Lendl lost the point, then started screaming at the umpire and the French crowd. He found himself down 15-40 in the next game, with a second serve, when Chang stepped inside the baseline, up nearly to the service box, to take the serve.
Lendl was clearly steaming. His serve bounced off the tape, went long and Chang sunk to his knees with the win.
"I was trying to break his concentration," he told Sports Illustrated after the 4-6, 4-6, 6-3, 6-3, 6-3 drainer. "I would do anything to stay out there."
Many saw the underhanded serve and the bold move to take Lendl's serve so close as sheer underhanded sportsmanship. It's a common move nowadays, stepping inside the baseline to try to take serves on the rise. But few ever have stepped that close.
And underhand serves are still a novelty, a trick shot. No one has ever used one in a more important point in a bigger match."
34 career titles and a peak #2 world ranking later, that serve is still what Chang is remembered for, and is one of the most memorable shots in French Open history.
The contextual similarities - it was a great read on how the opponent was playing him, it took massive balls, it was in the 5th set of a match he started down 0-2 late in a major tournament, and was the sign of someone who would fight and scrap and do anything to win. He got shit for it at the time, and some people like hugman and White Dog might still, but the vast majority recognized it as something pretty damn awesome. The match became a signature of Chang's tenacious style, much like I suspect the White-ra match will be a signature of MC's pure balls-to-the-wallness.
The irrelevant similarites - Lendl was the old-school European home-continent favorite, Chang was the Asian (American) foreigner. Oh, and Michael Chang.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/tennis/1999/french_open/news/1999/05/22/tenyears_changfrench/index.html
Edit: Oh, and on hugman's comment that boring deciding games are bad for e-sports - a boring game wouldn't have generated this level of attention or passion. This was exciting, even if only contextually, and I'd argue the drama only benefits e-sports. I'd also argue that having someone like MC at the top is beneficial, because he has what so few other athletes, nevermind progamers have - a personality, and a willingness to show it.
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On April 13 2011 08:30 Sated wrote:
I agree that we shouldn't insult someone for doing the best they can to win because that's what they're there to do. It's ridiculous to personally insult MC for using prior knowledge to do something pretty clever. At the same time, we also have to recognise that this doesn't mean the game itself was entertaining. It was a terrible way to end a tournament and that is always going to leave a bitter taste in the mouths of the "purists" of any given sport, it isn't something that applies to just Starcraft II.
Lay off MC, though. He won the tournament, hence he probably deserved it... even if I think IdrA could've beaten him if he wasn't so prone to raging.
Starcraft purists stand up and applaud when someone that slips as badly in their fundamentals as White-Ra did gets exposed and crushed by a cheese. He didn't vary his strats in a series, he didn't know the map and he didn't scout the inside of his base when going against a protoss. Don't like how the tournament ended? Blame White-Ra.
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Calgary25998 Posts
On April 13 2011 08:03 Apolo wrote:
boesthius actually it's not as simple as"they play to win". As i've said before, the money for the prizes come from viewers. The players are actually entertainers, in a way like comedians, singers, etc, and thats why all of these have "fans". The reason why TLO seems to always be the fan favourite is because he deviates from boring play. Players like him keep more viewers coming by making them interested, expecting what crazy new stuff will TLO do this time, instead, "oh look standard play. I'll come back in 5mins to see who wins," Ofc i'm exageratting, but this is to say, yes they play to win, but also to entertain otherwise, no viewers, no money, and with no money at stake, they lose their job.
Still, part of this entertaining job, a big part, is the game itself. If boring standard play is more effective, ofc it will be seen more often. That's why it's also on blizzards hand to make it as appealing as possible to players to be able to have exciting games, to attract viewers --> money --> players.
I think it's worthwhile to break down exactly what everyone's bottom line is from an SC2 tournament:
Players: Win money. They get invited to the tournament for a variety of reasons, and they may jeopardize that if their playstyle doesn't sit well with fans. A combination of entertainment, appreciable skill, and past results will allow them to get invited to future events.
Casters: Earn money. They get invited to the tournament for a variety of reasons, and not performing up to the expected level may jeopardize that. A combination of entertainment, appreciable skill and past results will allow them to get invited to future events.
Tournament Hosts: Earn money. They get sponsors rewarding the tournament for viewership. Not performing up to the expect level may jeopardize future sponsorship.
Viewers: Spend money for entertainment.
I think you can see it's not really in the players' scope to be entertainers. It would be nice for everyone if they were good and entertaining, but it's way moreso in the hosts' interest than their own.
It is almost entirely in the tournament hosts' scope to allow the tournament to be competitive while forcing it to still being entertaining. They can do this by modifying the format to reduce the effectiveness of cheese and uninteresting builds / styles, modifying the maps to reduce the effectiveness of cheese and uninteresting builds / styles, or by simply not inviting players with uninteresting styles.
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The SC2 community is just atrocious really. I 100% agree with everything you said Boes. I understand this is "the internet", but this is really getting out of hand.
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EPT
