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On April 13 2011 06:48 Incursus wrote:
Fully agreed. Why is everyone being so harsh on MC, I mean anyone who was in that situation who knew a way they could win, that was perfectly fair and within the rules of the game would have done the same thing. MC figured White Ra out and figured that this proxy would be effective at bringing him down. His analysis was correct and as a result he was victorious.
By being so harsh on MC you're also dissing White Ra, if MC's play was skill less and crappy what does that make White Ra? The games were great to watch for me as a Protoss player, learning new things about PvP and how to play it is always a fantastic thing. And seeing these two players who obviously have world class PvP duke it out was awesome.
I do understand why people are upset over this victory, deep down inside most of us wanted White Ra to win. He is an awesome player and a foreigner who almost took out the best Korean player. You all should be thrilled for White Ra doing this well against MC, I mean MC is the best in the world at the moment. This of course is subject to change at any moment, but MC has been showing the most consistent results as of now.
White Ra and MC played extremely well, MC won fairly and legitimately. We all know he can play the game however he needs to, to score the victory. I know he can play a macro game scarily well, as he did against Byun. And have you all forgotten that game on Lost Temple between MC and Rain? I mean fucking hell guys, watch that again for the love of god, saying MC has to be a "Faggot" to win? Are you fucking SERIOUS? Watch that game and tell me he has no skill? Go ahead, diss on Rain all you like. But let me tell you something about Rain, he started out a cheeser, and yeah he did it a lot. He did what it took to make the money, which is after all why someone becomes a pro gamer. It's a profession and making money sorta provides food to eat.
But back to Rain, Rain got knocked out of Code S first season, and everyone was dissing him and playing down MC's win over him the previous season, surprise Rain made it back into Code S. Proving a point, that he really does have skill. And MC was able to take this guy down in an incredible way. MC should have lost that game, there's no way around it, but he played perfectly, he played beyond perfectly.
It's so funny that you all have forgotten the caliber of playing here. By being this disrespectful to MC you are being disrespectful to White Ra as well, think of what White Ra would do in this situation, he would be completely mannered and you know it.
MC out played White Ra in this series, White Ra made a few mistakes which ultimately cost him the games. I think White Ra has the skill to bring down MC, I don't doubt it for a minute. I think White Ra will continue to get better and we will probably see him obliterate some Koreans sometime soon. What kind of people are you that you feel you have the right to flame MC for doing what it takes to win. Leave me alone and let me watch the games and play them.
Excellent point about how degrading MC degrades White-Ra as well!
Also, to further your point about MC vs. Rain... go watch MC vs. Nada GSL January, or MC vs. July Group A GSL March.
July got a four-kill in the WC Showmatch, NaDa is a two in a row Ro8'er, 3 Ro8's overall, and is the tornado terran, feared for his BW macro, which has carried over at least some. Watch his games vs. ZeNexByun, Ro16 GSL March, a player known for his strong defensive macro. Rain won in solid macro games vs. a Ro4 and consistent ro8'er HongUn
He rolled them. In macro games. They stood no chance. Jinro has told us that MC's strength is not timing attacks, just noone is good enough to get past that stage.
You (MC dissers) are fighting against 6 games of results, the sentiments of the best and most beloved foreign player out there.
Edit:
Also:
On April 13 2011 09:47 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
"Is he a sick or what?" - Naniwa while watching the last game.
Because thats what it was - a clutch as hell play, where he says fuck it, I could lose doing this but I think I will win more times than I lose, and more times than playing normally as well.
To do that in the final game of a tournament where second place doesnt get shit, is clutch. If you cant respect that type of play, I dont think you get what makes a great player.
QFT, Another Jinro backing, and not a debatable one either.
On April 13 2011 10:17 aimaimaim wrote:
Give him a break .. He just wants to be the 'Emperor' on SC2 :D
Oh, and this jewel XD
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Yeah games like that suck for viewers, but at the end of the day MC is there to win the tourney and the cash that goes with it.
He did what he thought gave him the optimal chance of winning. If you were in his spot with however many thousands of $$ on the line and in-base two-gate proxying gave you that best chance, you'd take it.
MC is there to win the $$ not to entertain.
The funny thing is, if Ra were the one who cheesed in the fifth game, I bet the outrage would not be nearly as big (I dare say people would praise his boldness).
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On April 13 2011 06:49 hugman wrote:
So I said this like twice already, but I think the tennis analogy of using an underhand serve on a match point is the perfect example. Is that respected in tennis? No.
MC can win like that but I'm not going to respect him for showing such a boring deciding game.
You're assuming anyone, including MC or White Ra, cares about who you 'respect.' We don't. So don't wave it around as if it's an asset that anyone has to earn. ALL of these players are way better than you. You should learn to respect that.
If people like you had their way, every game would be NR15 played on novice maps with rocks preventing any rushes. Though this isn't even entirely true, because you actually love it when a foreigner beats a Korean with cheese. So how about you just cut the crap and admit the player you wanted to win didn't win, and you and people like you are throwing a hissy fit?
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I'm fine with fans hating MC for not playing how they want. They're not taking any of MC's money back. Players shouldn't be indignant when fans don't react exactly how they want. If you want to reap the benefits of being a fan favorite, you may have to play in a less than optimal way.
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On April 13 2011 08:17 RoieTRS wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 08:14 zeru wrote:On April 13 2011 08:03 Apolo wrote:
boesthius actually it's not as simple as"they play to win". As i've said before, the money for the prizes come from viewers. The players are actually entertainers, in a way like comedians, singers, etc, and thats why all of these have "fans". The reason why TLO seems to always be the fan favourite is because he deviates from boring play. Players like him keep more viewers coming by making them interested, expecting what crazy new stuff will TLO do this time, instead, "oh look standard play. I'll come back in 5mins to see who wins," Ofc i'm exageratting, but this is to say, yes they play to win, but also to entertain otherwise, no viewers, no money, and with no money at stake, they lose their job.
Still, part of this entertaining job, a big part, is the game itself. If boring standard play is more effective, ofc it will be seen more often. That's why it's also on blizzards hand to make it as appealing as possible to players to be able to have exciting games, to attract viewers --> money --> players. They players are not entertainers. sorry. not sure where you got that from. Yes they are.
Long macro games are interesting when they occur naturally, not when every player feels they have to do it just to appease the crowd. Start a NR15 tourney and see how successful that is.
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On April 13 2011 12:04 -_- wrote:
I'm fine with fans hating MC for not playing how they want. They're not taking any of MC's money back. Players shouldn't be indignant when fans don't react exactly how they want. If you want to reap the benefits of being a fan favorite, you may have to play in a less than optimal way.
There's a pretty clear line between "I dislike MC" and "Fuck that guy, he's a fag" though. Especially considering the situation.
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On April 13 2011 12:15 Kibibit wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 12:04 -_- wrote:
I'm fine with fans hating MC for not playing how they want. They're not taking any of MC's money back. Players shouldn't be indignant when fans don't react exactly how they want. If you want to reap the benefits of being a fan favorite, you may have to play in a less than optimal way. There's a pretty clear line between "I dislike MC" and "Fuck that guy, he's a fag" though. Especially considering the situation.
Agree ^^ i think the main point of the OP is you can dislike the path to victory, but keep in perspective of how victory was obtained and that is in the line of war. The prize is 15,000 anyone would be cut-throat in the finals to achieve victory for that kind of money. Its any means necessary. If you take the perspective that its not ladder and 15,000 big ones are on the line. You have never won any major tournament ever and your broke need to pay bills. In the end your not thinking about fans or admiration your thinking about the cash on the line the money. If fans hate they will hate oh well. Im paying this car note off, and Im paying this credit card off I'm out of debt with money to spare. I can help my parents out cause there in trouble. Thats the mindset these players have in these tournaments. I need to WIN cause there is big money on the line. If people love me thats second to my profession. I need to, I must win!! This is how I survive every month.
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Well, to be fair, MC has plenty of money. Like most Koreans his age would it's possible he's "giving" the money to his parents but I don't think that's to help them out, I'm pretty sure(could be wrong, a Korean might want to fact check me on this) they just save it to use responsibly on stuff for him when he gets married. With his current earnings, even minus this tournament, he could pay a decent amount of rent on an apartment, buy a nice car, furnish a home(and then some), put food on the table, etc. Not all at once but some combination of those most likely since he's over $100k which is substantially more than most people make in a year. And that's only from a few months.
edit: though obviously I think it's enough to want to be a champion.
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Anyone who thinks MC is a 'faggot' or didn't deserve to win is just an idiot.
IMO, people who bitch and whine like this in the LR threads should get week long bans at least. The two day bans don't really seem to be that much of a deterrance.
And people saying "He should have played a better strategy for the fans!"?
Really? So if you were in that situation, you would potentially throw away $15,000 just to not piss off a bunch of morons?
MC won. He beat White-Ra. Deal with it.
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I was feeling I need to write something after all the comment from idiots in the LR thread. But this blog speaks for myself.
MC has been put in 2 extremely difficult position in the tourney and as what we expect from a champion he rose above and fully deserve the title.
For noobs that surprise of game 5 you guys need to learn a bit history of SC. Cheese in a Bo5 is EVERYWHERE in SC event semi-final or final or OSL, MSL(2 most prestige Starleague in the world).
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Boes, you just gotta find the silver lining, man.
People are starting to sound like Korean Netizens, Starcraft is finally becoming a more international Esport!!
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It's because people look at the games individually rather than as a series and rather than taking players' styles into account. It's silly. I've never felt more excited than when IdrA 6 pooled Jinro on Jungle Basin, and 6 pooling is easily one of the 'least respectable' strategies out there.
Context is all it comes down to.
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All I can say is I'm glad you have the power to ban people, lol
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Boes
can u relax?
But yea, some people just confound me. Nerds will be nerds, though, and they just gooootta' hate.
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I understand the OP's point and I agree 100%. I don't understand however why he is getting so worked up. People always are selfish and unreasonable when emotionally invested in something, especially so if backed by a large number of people who share their opinion (see quotes), making it a popular one, shouldn't comes as a surprise.
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I actually didn't realize the spawns were fixed - I thought MC took a chance and proxied one, hoping it was the right one. I couldn't believe how ballsy and fucking awesome that move was.
Now that I know differently, it's totally White-Ra's fault for not checking his base on a 2 player map and scouting late and incorrectly. It's also his fault - as stated above - for doing the same opening in every single game.
MC did what it took to win, and he deserved it. Definitely love the MC vs White-Ra motif floating around in the SC2 world, they make PvP actually interesting to watch.
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Netherlands45349 Posts
If so much money is on the line, you don't frigging play nicely so that it looks cool, no you play to win.
Remember the World Cup?My country played absolutely disgusting in terms of football, GUESS WHAT?It worked, and we got to the finals(although we lost ofcourse). A win is a win.
Aside from this there is a quite a large amount of people who only want to see 1 thing, to see Koreans lose and ''foreigners') win. Therfore if a foreigner does something wrong and a korean stomps him people will complain about the Korean......but with vice versa, I don't see it happening so fast.
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On April 13 2011 07:19 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 06:49 hugman wrote:
So I said this like twice already, but I think the tennis analogy of using an underhand serve on a match point is the perfect example. Is that respected in tennis? No.
MC can win like that but I'm not going to respect him for showing such a boring deciding game. Congratulations, this is the worst analogy I have ever heard on this website. Impressive. Edit: If players artificially created epic games, they wouldn't be epic. The thing that makes them epic is that they got to such a stalemated, drawn out situation, while trying to fucking murder each other every second of the match.
Epicness comes in off the chart situation that goes with tension and stress, everybody agrees with that.
MC's cheese is not off chart, he is a cheesy player, he is basically using timing attack and cheese 90% of the time, and the 10% rest is when his opponents force him to go for a third and more or kill him.
I don't understand all the whine about the whine, it feels like all the MC's fan just cannot accept we critisize this kind of play. It is our right as viewers to think what we want about this type of play, even if MC is the uncontested best protoss at the moment. It is our right to think that SC2 should be deeper than just a bunch of quick 5 to 15 min games with one expand at best and low tier tech units.
I will just say one thing, the most epic game on SC1 in my opinion, and one of the most reviewed game, was the 1v1 between BoXer and Iloveoov for i don't remember what purpose where, at some point, BoXer locked down a fleet of battle cruiser with a bunch of ghost. Those games were like 1 hour long.
Its not also bad, the premise is also wrong.
Chang vs Lendl, French Open Ro16, 5th set -- on Chang's serve, 15-30 while a break up. Lose the point and be down 2 break points, win the point and take back the momentum. If not match point, it was pretty damn close to one.
The choice to serve underhand was brilliant, and its probably one of the more remarkable sets in tennis history for this very reason.
Anyways, Boes fighting ~
It's Roland Gaross and it was, at the time, saw as one of the most disrespectful move made by a young player (Chang) against an old legend (Lendl). Not to mention, that's THE ONLY EXEMPLE YOU CAN GIVE US. There are no other exemple of famous point with that kind of serve. Act become epic because we are not seeing them every damn day. Doing this was more risky: that kind of serve is weaker than normal serve in term of speed.
MC is all about cheese, stop calling epic something that is not. I hate people making the comparaison between Michael Chang and MC the cheeser, have some respect ?
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On April 13 2011 21:34 WhiteDog wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2011 07:19 Chill wrote:On April 13 2011 06:49 hugman wrote:
So I said this like twice already, but I think the tennis analogy of using an underhand serve on a match point is the perfect example. Is that respected in tennis? No.
MC can win like that but I'm not going to respect him for showing such a boring deciding game. Congratulations, this is the worst analogy I have ever heard on this website. Impressive. Edit: If players artificially created epic games, they wouldn't be epic. The thing that makes them epic is that they got to such a stalemated, drawn out situation, while trying to fucking murder each other every second of the match. Epicness comes in off the chart situation that goes with tension and stress, everybody agrees with that. MC's cheese is not off chart, he is a cheesy player, he is basically using timing attack and cheese 90% of the time, and the 10% rest is when his opponents force him to go for a third and more or kill him. I don't understand all the whine about the whine, it feels like all the MC's fan just cannot accept we critisize this kind of play. It is our right as viewers to think what we want about this type of play, even if MC is the uncontested best protoss at the moment. It is our right to think that SC2 should be deeper than just a bunch of quick 5 to 15 min games with one expand at best and low tier tech units.
I will just say one thing, the most epic game on SC1 in my opinion, and one of the most reviewed game, was the 1v1 between BoXer and Iloveoov for i don't remember what purpose where, at some point, BoXer locked down a fleet of battle cruiser with a bunch of ghost. Those games were like 1 hour long.
The above would be true if there was some DreamHack Grand Finals Honor Code that stated you can't use strategy x, you can't attack before x min etc.
There wasn't, which means only wins and losses matter (just like on ladder). MC wanted to win so he chose the strategy he thought he could win with.
Of course you can criticize MC for doing that, but I don't think trash talk is necessary.
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EPT
