um so basically i just wanted to make a thread where i can ask stuff i think about while studying german at university. hopefully ppl who speak german fluently can pop in every now and then and shed some light of some on my questions.
like, my teacher keeps pronouncing the i in "stimmt" as a u! "stummt". she does that with many differenty i's... "wird".... and other words. when i asked my mom about it who is semi-fluent she said its probably just some accent. is it? someone please tell me.
also, iv noticed some people make the "french-R" (lack of better word for it) and some people dont when they speak german. is that also a dialectual thing?
i try n pronounce my i's like i's and my r's weak like in swedish : )
also have a test coming up in less than a week, will prob have loads of Q's coming up to that and hopefully i will do well.
pronouncing the i in words like "stimmt" "wird" etc. as kind of an u is quite common in daily german conversations, making the language a little bit more easy, fluent and..more sloppy :D. But if you want to achieve this "hochdeutsch" -speaking ability (very clear german almost without any accent), I suggest you stay with the very short, not too high and fast spoken "i"- pronounciation. Sounds just smooth and easy. :D In my opinion, its the better option for pronounciation.
The "i" in "stimmt" will usually be pronounced more like a german "ü" instead of a true "i".
Proper pronounciation would require the "tim" part to be spoken just like in the english "stim (pack)"; however, most germans will probably pronounce it more like "schtümmt". I guess for foreigners not used to german umlauts, the "u" will be the closest to this. Inhabitants of Germany's north won't, though, so in the end it could be considered an accent or she just picked up some local dialect.
Regarding the "r" ... I'm not quite sure what you mean but depending on where you are in Germany, a lot of things can be different with the language. I guess it could be a dialect/accent thing too.
like, my teacher keeps pronouncing the i in "stimmt" as a u! "stummt". she does that with many differenty i's... "wird".... and other words.
Could be Fränkisch or Schwäbisch or Tyrolese, in some Southern dialects many front vowels are pushed back in colloquial speech, giving the impression of being a rustic retard.
also, iv noticed some people make the "french-R" (lack of better word for it) and some people dont when they speak german. is that also a dialectual thing?
No. While I am certain that certain dialects use one variation more than the other, they are mostly inter-changeable even within the same sentence.
Here her Rs are uvular fricatives. It is the best solution for Anglophones who are unable to produce any of the other prescribed variations.
Zarah Leander. Here her Rs are uvular trills. Even so she sounds Swedish. I suggest switching to uvular fricatives if you can, and assimilate your Rs preferably through mumbling so no one can make it out
I have been learning German for almost a year and, during this time, have encountered a lot of things in it that make no sense, are inconsistent or both.
For example, the most used verbs tend to be very irregular; pure memorization is the key to being able to use them correctly. It is often impossible to know the case a verb's object takes (direct/indirect, etc) and those reflexive verbs are also a bitch. Accusative, dative, two-way and genitive prepositions are enough reason to drive you nuts at times. I cannot, to save my life, memorize the genders of nouns I will not use on a regular basis either. For some reason, I tend to forget adjective endings and screw up those of uncountable nouns. The definite and indefinite articles, coupled with their thousands of inflections and inflections of inflections, are actually okay. That is, when you leave relative pronouns out of the equation. Furthermore, the German word order and sentence structure changes a lot depending on the conjunctions one decides to use.
But if I managed to get this far with it, I'm sure you can also. In fact, we should become language buddies as well as anyone interested in jumping in!
On March 18 2011 05:32 EsX_Raptor wrote: I have been learning German for almost a year and, during this time, have encountered a lot of things in it that make no sense, are inconsistent or both.
For example, the most used verbs tend to be very irregular; pure memorization is the key to being able to use them correctly. It is often impossible to know the case a verb's object takes (direct/indirect, etc) and those reflexive verbs are also a bitch. Accusative, dative, two-way and genitive prepositions are enough reason to drive you nuts at times. I cannot, to save my life, memorize the genders of nouns I will not use on a regular basis either. For some reason, I tend to forget adjective endings and screw up those of uncountable nouns. The definite and indefinite articles, coupled with their thousands of inflections and inflections of inflections, are actually okay. That is, when you leave relative pronouns out of the equation. Furthermore, the German word order and sentence structure changes a lot depending on the conjunctions one decides to use.
But if I managed to get this far with it, I'm sure you can also. In fact, we should become language buddies as well as anyone interested in jumping in!
Could you make some examples of words which you find inconsistent or that give you a hard time understanding the grammar behind it? That would make it a lot easier to explain them and the principles behind them (and maybe also some tricks to memorize them)
Ich bin sehr interesiert zu deutsch studerien.(?) I bumped the language practice partners thread a month ago but no one was interested at the time. Anyone want to post skype ids and set aside sometime weekly to study a bit of german?
On March 18 2011 05:32 EsX_Raptor wrote: I have been learning German for almost a year and, during this time, have encountered a lot of things in it that make no sense, are inconsistent or both.
For example, the most used verbs tend to be very irregular; pure memorization is the key to being able to use them correctly. It is often impossible to know the case a verb's object takes (direct/indirect, etc) and those reflexive verbs are also a bitch. Accusative, dative, two-way and genitive prepositions are enough reason to drive you nuts at times. I cannot, to save my life, memorize the genders of nouns I will not use on a regular basis either. For some reason, I tend to forget adjective endings and screw up those of uncountable nouns. The definite and indefinite articles, coupled with their thousands of inflections and inflections of inflections, are actually okay. That is, when you leave relative pronouns out of the equation. Furthermore, the German word order and sentence structure changes a lot depending on the conjunctions one decides to use.
But if I managed to get this far with it, I'm sure you can also. In fact, we should become language buddies as well as anyone interested in jumping in!
Could you make some examples of words which you find inconsistent or that give you a hard time understanding the grammar behind it? That would make it a lot easier to explain them and the principles behind them (and maybe also some tricks to memorize them)
k i guess her i's sounding like ü's are just normal speech then. if thats the way ppl speka nowadays i will try to gimmick it.
cool, got names to the pronounciations of "r". "uvular fricatives" is what i meant by the "french r". this is what i do not care for. i used to pronouce r like this, but as in swedish we use "uvular trills" this comes much more natural to me.
raptor; i no where ur coming from. it can be sooo much to remember sometimes.
i remember a guy in my class actually raising his hand to ask the teacher "do germans even understand each other with all these rules?. i thought that was a stupid comment, but i understood what he meant. there are ALOT of rules, and just as many exceptions. thing is, i bet most germans themselves speak correctly and dont even think twice about accusative or dative. to some people that may be discouraging. but to me it gives hope. thats exactly how i learned swedish, and english too for that matter.
i was just sitting here with my prepositions controlling both dative and accusative and after a while you go, "hey---- im starting to get this"
theres hope! and id love to get ur feed back on things from you in this thread too. ill be posting regularly. i just recently handed in an assignment, i wish i had posted it here first to get some corrections next time. but if uv studied for a year ur probably lightyears ahead of me im doing my first semester just now :S
On March 18 2011 05:32 EsX_Raptor wrote: I have been learning German for almost a year and, during this time, have encountered a lot of things in it that make no sense, are inconsistent or both.
For example, the most used verbs tend to be very irregular; pure memorization is the key to being able to use them correctly. It is often impossible to know the case a verb's object takes (direct/indirect, etc) and those reflexive verbs are also a bitch. Accusative, dative, two-way and genitive prepositions are enough reason to drive you nuts at times. I cannot, to save my life, memorize the genders of nouns I will not use on a regular basis either. For some reason, I tend to forget adjective endings and screw up those of uncountable nouns. The definite and indefinite articles, coupled with their thousands of inflections and inflections of inflections, are actually okay. That is, when you leave relative pronouns out of the equation. Furthermore, the German word order and sentence structure changes a lot depending on the conjunctions one decides to use.
But if I managed to get this far with it, I'm sure you can also. In fact, we should become language buddies as well as anyone interested in jumping in!
Could you make some examples of words which you find inconsistent or that give you a hard time understanding the grammar behind it? That would make it a lot easier to explain them and the principles behind them (and maybe also some tricks to memorize them)
On March 18 2011 05:49 mrscheng wrote: k i guess her i's sounding like ü's are just normal speech then. if thats the way ppl speka nowadays i will try to gimmick it.
Oh god no, we don't speak like that. People from saxon maybe. So if you want to get ridiculed and laughed at go right ahead. Did you know that the leadership of the DDR spoke saxon? And that it is voted the most unsexy accent in Germany? Learn ze Hochdeutsch!!
On March 18 2011 05:32 EsX_Raptor wrote: I have been learning German for almost a year and, during this time, have encountered a lot of things in it that make no sense, are inconsistent or both.
For example, the most used verbs tend to be very irregular; pure memorization is the key to being able to use them correctly. It is often impossible to know the case a verb's object takes (direct/indirect, etc) and those reflexive verbs are also a bitch. Accusative, dative, two-way and genitive prepositions are enough reason to drive you nuts at times. I cannot, to save my life, memorize the genders of nouns I will not use on a regular basis either. For some reason, I tend to forget adjective endings and screw up those of uncountable nouns. The definite and indefinite articles, coupled with their thousands of inflections and inflections of inflections, are actually okay. That is, when you leave relative pronouns out of the equation. Furthermore, the German word order and sentence structure changes a lot depending on the conjunctions one decides to use.
But if I managed to get this far with it, I'm sure you can also. In fact, we should become language buddies as well as anyone interested in jumping in!
Could you make some examples of words which you find inconsistent or that give you a hard time understanding the grammar behind it? That would make it a lot easier to explain them and the principles behind them (and maybe also some tricks to memorize them)
The first thing that pops into my head are the following two expressions:
Den kenne ich. (1) Ich kenne ihn. (2)
I've heard both being used by native Germans before. Perhaps these are just two different ways of expressing the same idea. It would, however, be a lot easier for us foreigners to learn the language would someone care to kindly explain the intentions behind their use! I'm guessing (1) is used when the subject of the sentence has been previously mentioned and (2) is used as a general statement about somebody.
Additionally, notice the word "nicht" in these three sentences:
Ich werde um fünfzehn Uhr zum Büro nicht fahren. (1) Ich werde um fünfzehn Uhr nicht zum Büro fahren. (2) Ich werde nicht um fünfzehn Uhr zum Büro fahren. (3)
I was told (1) is incorrect and with no explanation as to why because she couldn't tell me (a German friend). So she corrected me with (2). Do you, or anybody else happen to know the logic behind this one? zatic just mentioned it is (3)!
I will ask more questions later I know will be helpful to the German learners when I get home from work!
Edit: Corrections. I find it amazing how these little things can slip off your mind just like that. And thanks for (3), zatic!
On March 18 2011 05:32 EsX_Raptor wrote: I have been learning German for almost a year and, during this time, have encountered a lot of things in it that make no sense, are inconsistent or both.
For example, the most used verbs tend to be very irregular; pure memorization is the key to being able to use them correctly. It is often impossible to know the case a verb's object takes (direct/indirect, etc) and those reflexive verbs are also a bitch. Accusative, dative, two-way and genitive prepositions are enough reason to drive you nuts at times. I cannot, to save my life, memorize the genders of nouns I will not use on a regular basis either. For some reason, I tend to forget adjective endings and screw up those of uncountable nouns. The definite and indefinite articles, coupled with their thousands of inflections and inflections of inflections, are actually okay. That is, when you leave relative pronouns out of the equation. Furthermore, the German word order and sentence structure changes a lot depending on the conjunctions one decides to use.
But if I managed to get this far with it, I'm sure you can also. In fact, we should become language buddies as well as anyone interested in jumping in!
Could you make some examples of words which you find inconsistent or that give you a hard time understanding the grammar behind it? That would make it a lot easier to explain them and the principles behind them (and maybe also some tricks to memorize them)
Ich frage dich Du antwortest mir
Explain that
I'm asking you. You're answering me.
Isn't that just the same?
What he tried to point out, with the wrong examples, was the following:
On March 18 2011 05:49 mrscheng wrote: k i guess her i's sounding like ü's are just normal speech then. if thats the way ppl speka nowadays i will try to gimmick it.
Oh god no, we don't speak like that. People from saxon maybe. So if you want to get ridiculed and laughed at go right ahead. Did you know that the leadership of the DDR spoke saxon? And that it is voted the most unsexy accent in Germany? Learn ze Hochdeutsch!!
lol kk -________- ich verstehe! ich will nicht ü wenn es ist i sagen! (word order T_T)
random question again:
how come sometimes you write "Jahren" instead of "Jahre" ? is that because i have a preposition in front that determines accusative? no wait, that makes no sense, its "das Jahr"... oh is it because of a preposition making it dative plural??... like, "seit vielen Jahren"? iohh that must be it... if not someone say womething
another thing, "wer", "wen", and "wem"... might just be me being stupid again, but why are these words bent with accusative and dative?
On March 18 2011 05:32 EsX_Raptor wrote: I have been learning German for almost a year and, during this time, have encountered a lot of things in it that make no sense, are inconsistent or both.
For example, the most used verbs tend to be very irregular; pure memorization is the key to being able to use them correctly. It is often impossible to know the case a verb's object takes (direct/indirect, etc) and those reflexive verbs are also a bitch. Accusative, dative, two-way and genitive prepositions are enough reason to drive you nuts at times. I cannot, to save my life, memorize the genders of nouns I will not use on a regular basis either. For some reason, I tend to forget adjective endings and screw up those of uncountable nouns. The definite and indefinite articles, coupled with their thousands of inflections and inflections of inflections, are actually okay. That is, when you leave relative pronouns out of the equation. Furthermore, the German word order and sentence structure changes a lot depending on the conjunctions one decides to use.
But if I managed to get this far with it, I'm sure you can also. In fact, we should become language buddies as well as anyone interested in jumping in!
Could you make some examples of words which you find inconsistent or that give you a hard time understanding the grammar behind it? That would make it a lot easier to explain them and the principles behind them (and maybe also some tricks to memorize them)
Additionally, notice the word "nicht" in these two sentences:
Ich werde um fünfzehn Uhr zum Büro nicht fahren. (1) Ich werde um fünfzehn Uhr nicht zum Büro fahren. (2)
I was told (1) is incorrect and with no explanation as to why because she couldn't tell me (a German friend). So she corrected me with (2). Do you, or anybody else happen to know the logic behind this one?
Are you sure what you really wanted to say wasn't Ich werde nicht um fünfzehn Uhr zum Büro fahren. (3)
On March 18 2011 05:49 mrscheng wrote: k i guess her i's sounding like ü's are just normal speech then. if thats the way ppl speka nowadays i will try to gimmick it.
Oh god no, we don't speak like that. People from saxon maybe. So if you want to get ridiculed and laughed at go right ahead. Did you know that the leadership of the DDR spoke saxon? And that it is voted the most unsexy accent in Germany? Learn ze Hochdeutsch!!
lol kk -________- ich verstehe! ich will nicht ü sagen wenn es ist i!
random question again:
how come sometimes you write "Jahren" instead of "Jahre" ? is that because i have a preposition in front that determines accusative? no wait, that makes no sense, its "das Jahr"... oh is it because of a preposition making it dative plural??... like, "seit vielen Jahren"? iohh that must be it... if not someone say womething
another thing, "wer", "wen", and "wem"... might just be me being stupid again, but why are these words bent with accusative and dative?
Facts
1. We know seit is a dative preposition:
seit + [dat.]
2. Plural nouns in the dative are appended an n at the end if these don't already end in n. Example:
die Jahre (plural, nominative) den Jahren (plural, dative)
Explanation
Seit fast einem Jahr [...]. Seit fast zwei Jahren [...].
A native German should correct me wherever I'm wrong, though.
EPT
