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On January 26 2011 20:54 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 19:41 5unrise wrote:On January 26 2011 19:16 Plexa wrote:
The race which has the most reactive tendencies will invariably be the race that being moan about playing the most. It was like this in BW as well (Protoss against Zerg, Zerg against Terran, Terran against Protoss) and is still true in SC2 (Zerg against Terran, Zerg against Protoss, Protoss against Terran). That's all there is to it imo. yeah well at least there was a triangle of imbalance in bw >_>;; whenever zergies get owned by terran we can at least go pick on protosses to make ourselves feel better. Can't say the same for this game lol I am amazed how people are able to twist every post into imbalance / balance talk. He was talking about races moaning because they are the reactive race in the match up which has pretty much nothing to do with balance. Imo it's getting quite ridiculous that nearly every post is filled with imbalance '/ balance talk and I am getting quite sick of it.
but he's wrong, and why aren't we allowed to complain >_> just for the sake of not offending people like you?
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5 stars fed up of zerg whining, your not top level players in the GSL it is not imbalance holding you back, just like its not imbalance holding me back when i lose most my PvT's i need to improve my play instead of cry about it on forums.
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On January 26 2011 19:16 Plexa wrote:
The race which has the most reactive tendencies will invariably be the race that being moan about playing the most. It was like this in BW as well (Protoss against Zerg, Zerg against Terran, Terran against Protoss) and is still true in SC2 (Zerg against Terran, Zerg against Protoss, Protoss against Terran). That's all there is to it imo.
The problem with zerg, and why so many complain, is that it often feels like there's only one way to react or that the ways you have to react vary wildly.
Forge expand -> Baneling bust, Nydus, or take a 3rd. 2/3 of those can be covered with good sim city and sentries. The 3rd just means you have an even situation.
If you're being countered when 4 gating or stuff, then check the replay for his scouting information. If he's getting scouting information you're doing it wrong and you should place your buildings better + be better about sniping the overlord.
Use a variety of the new strategies as well like 1 gas 4 gate, 6 gate, phoenix pressure, and blink stalker. These newer strategies are generally better because they force more divergent and extreme responses. Your opponent went for hydras? You win with 1 gas 4 gate. You opponent didn't go for hydras? You win with blink stalkers or phoenixes. Mix in a more economical build now and then and you have a good set. If you're playing mostly on ladder you can probably just stick to one of the above really.
And learn these builds WELL. It's easy to do a build opening perfectly if you practice it, so do it until you get it down just right. A perfectly timed opening of one of the above is difficult to stop even if you expect it and that's what you're looking for. You'll take so many games from Zergies misjudging what your opening.
That's the single greatest strength of Protoss ZvP right now, and why they're possibly imbalanced. They can very easily force Zerg into having to prepare the proper counter while they're still on very very limited information. Sure you can't scout well yourself as Protoss, but when you are the aggressive one it's not nearly as big of a deal.
5 stars fed up of zerg whining, your not top level players in the GSL it is not imbalance holding you back, just like its not imbalance holding me back when i lose most my PvT's i need to improve my play instead of cry about it on forums.
The difference is that it's relatively easy to get into a micro/positioning/economic game vs Terran. ZvP can, and does, often end with the first push because of how scouting information works.
Just for example here's my scouting information mental checklist....
Cyber didn't start researching warp gate right away -> 1 Gate Stargate
1 Zealot 1 Stalker + 0 chrono boosts on gateway + 0 boost on cyber, but warp gate started right away -> Gate Robo most likely
1 Zealot 1 Stalker + 1 chrono on gateway and 1 chrono on cyber -> Blink Stalkers
1 Zealot 1 Stalker + 0 chrono on gateway and 1+ chrono on cyber -> 1 gas 4 gate
1 Zealot 1 Sentry + 0 chrono on gateway and 0-1 chrono on cyber -> 3 Gate expand, 3 gate robo
1 Zealot 1 Sentry + 0 chrono on gateway and 1+ chrono on cyber -> 4 gate / 5 gate
1 Zealot 1 Stalker + 1 chrono on gateway (and possibly more) -> 2 stalker or 1 stalker 1 zealot pressure
Forge Fast expand -> Forge Fast expand (lol this one is obvious of course)
So that's just a rough head of what goes through my brain in terms of scouting by about the 3-4 minute mark. It then diverges way more after that (is it 2 stargate or 1? Count the phoenixes. Is it 3 gate->6 gate, 3 gate->robo, or 3 gate->macro play? And so on).
Honestly how much of the Zerg timings do you as a Protoss player actually know? Do you know when my first vomit is? Do you know when my second vomit is? Do you know when my hatch will finish? When I can possibly have mutas? When I can possibly have Roaches?
Meanwhile on the zerg side I have to navigate a checklist like the one above every single game at the start, and MUST come to the right conclusion. Most of those strategies have mutually exclusive responses. Not to win, just to put the game in a 50/50 state where I can win.
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On January 26 2011 22:53 nekuodah wrote:
5 stars fed up of zerg whining, your not top level players in the GSL it is not imbalance holding you back, just like its not imbalance holding me back when i lose most my PvT's i need to improve my play instead of cry about it on forums.
The forum complainers are the people who don't know HOW to improve, I'd wager. Suddenly people realize "crap, starcraft is hard" and instead of meeting the challenge bitch about it...
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On January 26 2011 22:37 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 21:47 Sfydjklm wrote:On January 26 2011 21:24 Moonloop wrote:On January 26 2011 20:56 Sfydjklm wrote:On January 26 2011 20:40 Moonloop wrote:On January 26 2011 17:22 Sfydjklm wrote:
The real problem most zergs are facing are not imbalances, but the lack of inspiration, the lack of heroes, the lack of victorious zergs that can give you motivation. It's like being a person of color in the early years of post segregated america. While you seem to have all the rights you need to be great on paper there is still a lack of observable success, and the same kind of hopeless feeling of being cornered.
. What? NesTea is one of the greatest players in the world right now, and won GSL2. FruitDealer was an absolute hero for zerg, and won GSL1. IdrA is arguably the most famous (and, IMO, the best) foreign SC2 player. I know Zergs aren't doing well in other tournaments besides the GSL, but thats not the point here. Think about how inspired zergs were when FruitDealer crushed everyone in GSL1. Zerg have the MOST heroes and inspiration out of any race. I really don't see how you think they're lacking. =/ How could any zerg not be inspired by FruitDealer's tribute video? Protoss don't have any videos like that. *whine* Yes but that was in season 2 of GSL. Forever ago. Besides at some point you realize you can never be as good as Nestea and all you want is the knowledge that it's a fair game and your race is capable of winning at any bracket of skill. A conviction that zerg's are deprived of. Also never really was impressed by FD's GSL 1 victory. His opponents in the last rounds played like shit. I was more impressed by his post GSL 1 play both wins and losses alike he played phenomenal. That's your opinion though - you also said 'most zergs' in your original post. I would argue that 'most zergs' were inspired by FruitDealer's win. I know Rainbow played terribly, but still - FruitDealer was just better than all his opponents, and won the most prestigious SC2 tournament at a time when zergs were weakest. Maybe you're not personally inspired by the people I named, but I think many players are. I can see where you're coming from, and I agree that Zerg is weak at the moment, but I stand by my opinion that of all three races, Zerg have the most heroes. I'm not arguing with what you said. I am saying that GSL 2 was forever ago and bottom line is GSL S1 and 2 are now irrelevant. It just the nature of time and it's pointless to argue. And tbh WhiteRa is a bigger hero then pretty much anyone else in esports  Man if Dimaga was winning i think there would be a lot less complaining going on. Being a hero is not just about winning its about the attitude too. A few weeks ago BratOk said that Dimaga was "depressed" about the current zerg situation and hence not performing well. I mean i dunno how liberal his use of the word was in that case but thinking about how severe something has to be to make someone as ridiculously positive as Dimaga depressed makes me depressed I lol every high level english speaking zerg is on the brink of actual depression or a race switch i wasnt kidding when i said i stopped practicing because the damage to my mental state was worse than lacking practice.
why not go back to T then? I mean i realize its disheartening to just completely restart from 0 just because some assholes in blizzard are clueless, but with the base you gained in SCBW there is simply no way you could possibly be worse then.. well i wont front Rain comes to mind immidiately.
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I dont agree with saying pvz is imba.
But i do agree that zerg whine on this site is absurd. Everyone acts like imbalances that only affect tip top pro players actually affect that average TLer. Get over yourself and play better.
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On January 26 2011 23:13 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 22:37 IdrA wrote:On January 26 2011 21:47 Sfydjklm wrote:On January 26 2011 21:24 Moonloop wrote:On January 26 2011 20:56 Sfydjklm wrote:On January 26 2011 20:40 Moonloop wrote:On January 26 2011 17:22 Sfydjklm wrote:
The real problem most zergs are facing are not imbalances, but the lack of inspiration, the lack of heroes, the lack of victorious zergs that can give you motivation. It's like being a person of color in the early years of post segregated america. While you seem to have all the rights you need to be great on paper there is still a lack of observable success, and the same kind of hopeless feeling of being cornered.
. What? NesTea is one of the greatest players in the world right now, and won GSL2. FruitDealer was an absolute hero for zerg, and won GSL1. IdrA is arguably the most famous (and, IMO, the best) foreign SC2 player. I know Zergs aren't doing well in other tournaments besides the GSL, but thats not the point here. Think about how inspired zergs were when FruitDealer crushed everyone in GSL1. Zerg have the MOST heroes and inspiration out of any race. I really don't see how you think they're lacking. =/ How could any zerg not be inspired by FruitDealer's tribute video? Protoss don't have any videos like that. *whine* Yes but that was in season 2 of GSL. Forever ago. Besides at some point you realize you can never be as good as Nestea and all you want is the knowledge that it's a fair game and your race is capable of winning at any bracket of skill. A conviction that zerg's are deprived of. Also never really was impressed by FD's GSL 1 victory. His opponents in the last rounds played like shit. I was more impressed by his post GSL 1 play both wins and losses alike he played phenomenal. That's your opinion though - you also said 'most zergs' in your original post. I would argue that 'most zergs' were inspired by FruitDealer's win. I know Rainbow played terribly, but still - FruitDealer was just better than all his opponents, and won the most prestigious SC2 tournament at a time when zergs were weakest. Maybe you're not personally inspired by the people I named, but I think many players are. I can see where you're coming from, and I agree that Zerg is weak at the moment, but I stand by my opinion that of all three races, Zerg have the most heroes. I'm not arguing with what you said. I am saying that GSL 2 was forever ago and bottom line is GSL S1 and 2 are now irrelevant. It just the nature of time and it's pointless to argue. And tbh WhiteRa is a bigger hero then pretty much anyone else in esports Man if Dimaga was winning i think there would be a lot less complaining going on. Being a hero is not just about winning its about the attitude too. A few weeks ago BratOk said that Dimaga was "depressed" about the current zerg situation and hence not performing well. I mean i dunno how liberal his use of the word was in that case but thinking about how severe something has to be to make someone as ridiculously positive as Dimaga depressed makes me depressed I lol every high level english speaking zerg is on the brink of actual depression or a race switch i wasnt kidding when i said i stopped practicing because the damage to my mental state was worse than lacking practice. why not go back to T then? I mean i realize its disheartening to just completely restart from 0 just because some assholes in blizzard are clueless, but with the base you gained in SCBW there is simply no way you could possibly be worse then.. well i wont front Rain comes to mind immidiately.
![[image loading]](http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/8/5/66b6fcd8-2d18-4fea-87fd-a33d72608095.jpg)
'nuff said?
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On January 26 2011 22:42 5unrise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 20:54 RvB wrote:On January 26 2011 19:41 5unrise wrote:On January 26 2011 19:16 Plexa wrote:
The race which has the most reactive tendencies will invariably be the race that being moan about playing the most. It was like this in BW as well (Protoss against Zerg, Zerg against Terran, Terran against Protoss) and is still true in SC2 (Zerg against Terran, Zerg against Protoss, Protoss against Terran). That's all there is to it imo. yeah well at least there was a triangle of imbalance in bw >_>;; whenever zergies get owned by terran we can at least go pick on protosses to make ourselves feel better. Can't say the same for this game lol I am amazed how people are able to twist every post into imbalance / balance talk. He was talking about races moaning because they are the reactive race in the match up which has pretty much nothing to do with balance. Imo it's getting quite ridiculous that nearly every post is filled with imbalance '/ balance talk and I am getting quite sick of it. but he's wrong, and why aren't we allowed to complain >_> just for the sake of not offending people like you?
You may complain but there is no need to spam a forum with zerg complains. Plus it's just weird if you react to a post and your reaction isn't even related to the one you quoted.
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On January 26 2011 23:25 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 22:42 5unrise wrote:On January 26 2011 20:54 RvB wrote:On January 26 2011 19:41 5unrise wrote:On January 26 2011 19:16 Plexa wrote:
The race which has the most reactive tendencies will invariably be the race that being moan about playing the most. It was like this in BW as well (Protoss against Zerg, Zerg against Terran, Terran against Protoss) and is still true in SC2 (Zerg against Terran, Zerg against Protoss, Protoss against Terran). That's all there is to it imo. yeah well at least there was a triangle of imbalance in bw >_>;; whenever zergies get owned by terran we can at least go pick on protosses to make ourselves feel better. Can't say the same for this game lol I am amazed how people are able to twist every post into imbalance / balance talk. He was talking about races moaning because they are the reactive race in the match up which has pretty much nothing to do with balance. Imo it's getting quite ridiculous that nearly every post is filled with imbalance '/ balance talk and I am getting quite sick of it. but he's wrong, and why aren't we allowed to complain >_> just for the sake of not offending people like you? You may complain but there is no need to spam a forum with zerg complains. Plus it's just weird if you react to a post and your reaction isn't even related to the one you quoted.
he was talking about how races in bw reacts to each other, which is the reason that T>Z>P>T, which is what I was talking about. I think that is pretty well related, perhaps not for people who havent played bw, in that case I should have expalined it better.
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On January 26 2011 23:18 Zeon0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 23:13 Sfydjklm wrote:On January 26 2011 22:37 IdrA wrote:On January 26 2011 21:47 Sfydjklm wrote:On January 26 2011 21:24 Moonloop wrote:On January 26 2011 20:56 Sfydjklm wrote:On January 26 2011 20:40 Moonloop wrote:On January 26 2011 17:22 Sfydjklm wrote:
The real problem most zergs are facing are not imbalances, but the lack of inspiration, the lack of heroes, the lack of victorious zergs that can give you motivation. It's like being a person of color in the early years of post segregated america. While you seem to have all the rights you need to be great on paper there is still a lack of observable success, and the same kind of hopeless feeling of being cornered.
. What? NesTea is one of the greatest players in the world right now, and won GSL2. FruitDealer was an absolute hero for zerg, and won GSL1. IdrA is arguably the most famous (and, IMO, the best) foreign SC2 player. I know Zergs aren't doing well in other tournaments besides the GSL, but thats not the point here. Think about how inspired zergs were when FruitDealer crushed everyone in GSL1. Zerg have the MOST heroes and inspiration out of any race. I really don't see how you think they're lacking. =/ How could any zerg not be inspired by FruitDealer's tribute video? Protoss don't have any videos like that. *whine* Yes but that was in season 2 of GSL. Forever ago. Besides at some point you realize you can never be as good as Nestea and all you want is the knowledge that it's a fair game and your race is capable of winning at any bracket of skill. A conviction that zerg's are deprived of. Also never really was impressed by FD's GSL 1 victory. His opponents in the last rounds played like shit. I was more impressed by his post GSL 1 play both wins and losses alike he played phenomenal. That's your opinion though - you also said 'most zergs' in your original post. I would argue that 'most zergs' were inspired by FruitDealer's win. I know Rainbow played terribly, but still - FruitDealer was just better than all his opponents, and won the most prestigious SC2 tournament at a time when zergs were weakest. Maybe you're not personally inspired by the people I named, but I think many players are. I can see where you're coming from, and I agree that Zerg is weak at the moment, but I stand by my opinion that of all three races, Zerg have the most heroes. I'm not arguing with what you said. I am saying that GSL 2 was forever ago and bottom line is GSL S1 and 2 are now irrelevant. It just the nature of time and it's pointless to argue. And tbh WhiteRa is a bigger hero then pretty much anyone else in esports Man if Dimaga was winning i think there would be a lot less complaining going on. Being a hero is not just about winning its about the attitude too. A few weeks ago BratOk said that Dimaga was "depressed" about the current zerg situation and hence not performing well. I mean i dunno how liberal his use of the word was in that case but thinking about how severe something has to be to make someone as ridiculously positive as Dimaga depressed makes me depressed I lol every high level english speaking zerg is on the brink of actual depression or a race switch i wasnt kidding when i said i stopped practicing because the damage to my mental state was worse than lacking practice. why not go back to T then? I mean i realize its disheartening to just completely restart from 0 just because some assholes in blizzard are clueless, but with the base you gained in SCBW there is simply no way you could possibly be worse then.. well i wont front Rain comes to mind immidiately. 'nuff said?
:D
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On January 26 2011 14:30 travis wrote:
god damn, seriously. i can't believe how much zerg whine. especially about pvz. I seriously win like 1 out of 3 pvz, it's by far my worst matchup, and most protoss i know say it's hard too. I am by no means a bad player, pvz is NOT easy. lately I've even had these fucking zergs complaining about forcefields during the game AND THEN THEY BEAT ME.
the worst is zergs complaining about how hard it is to scout. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME. YOU HAVE OVERLORDS AND SPEEDLINGS. PROTOSS CAN'T SCOUT YOU AT ALL UNTIL HALLUCINATION OR OBSERVERS.
god, seriously, it's so fucking ridiculous. what is it about pvz im not understanding? seriously, the only way i ever win is by not engaging until I have a ridiculous army and then hoping the zerg wasn't good enough to take every base on the map in the mean time.
this rant was brought to you by me losing pretty much every pvz i've had for my last 20 pvz or so. I forge expand scrap station? they baneling bust. I forge expand to void ray shakuras? nydus in my base i barely fail to stop it lings stream in there goes my main. I try to hard 4gate? fast roach and lings. I play 3gate sentry expand on metalopolis? Guy outmacros me off his 2 bases and uses the wide area around the expansion to repeatedly attack me and i can't hold it. I go 2gate robo? Opponent goes mass speedlings into muta. WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO? in WHAT DIMENSION IS THIS EASY?
there are basically 2 options regarding how to respond to this post
1. explain in depth how the matchup plays out
2. tell you to give ZvP a try and find out by yourself
now, what will be the outcome of said options?
1. you skim over my response, while only looking at the MU from your PoV (as you beautifully demonstrated in your OP)
2. a) you actually play Z for a good amount of games and gain a deeper understanding for the game. this will also prevent the possibility of such terrible blogs being written in the future.
2. b) you ignore my post and continue complaining.
obviously 2a) is the best solution, however i heavily doubt that you will wind up doing that.
so whats the point?
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On January 26 2011 22:53 nekuodah wrote:
5 stars fed up of zerg whining, your not top level players in the GSL it is not imbalance holding you back, just like its not imbalance holding me back when i lose most my PvT's i need to improve my play instead of cry about it on forums.
You do realize that the OP himself is also whining? It may be dressed up as an attack on zerg whiners but it's pretty obviously an excuse for some whining of his own. I'm surprised that people can't see this.
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lol, imagine this blog was created by a random user..
also how did Megaliskuu's post not get any love?
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So, because you and your friends who are by no means good fail at PvZing it means that the match up is okay? Well, I guess all the pro Zergs in korea just need to l2p.
You see how ridiculous your reasoning is?
the worst is zergs complaining about how hard it is to scout. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME. YOU HAVE OVERLORDS AND SPEEDLINGS. PROTOSS CAN'T SCOUT YOU AT ALL UNTIL HALLUCINATION OR OBSERVERS.
maybe that's because YOU DONT NEED TO SCOUT UNITL HALLUS OR OBSERVERS ARE OUT, BECAUSE ZERG AND NOT TOSS IS THE REACTIONARY RACE. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?
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Sweden598 Posts
Speaking as a SC2-spectator (watch more than i play) Blizzard needs to do something and the players need to stop whining. Really, the only thing worse than the trouble zerg players are having (some trouble, not massive) are the zerg players complaining about it.
We get it already, no need to keep regurgitate the same thing over and over.
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On January 26 2011 14:52 LuckyFool wrote:embrace the rage travis! haha love seeing other rageblogs. 
What do you think about lategame TvP?
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Is it just me or anyone else thinks that game is good balanced ?
yea it got little imba strategies but i think its balanced enough to not making a posts about that.
BTW im P / Z player but sometimes i play T for fun
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On January 27 2011 00:51 DND_Enkil wrote:
Speaking as a SC2-spectator (watch more than i play) Blizzard needs to do something and the players need to stop whining. Really, the only thing worse than the trouble zerg players are having (some trouble, not massive) are the zerg players complaining about it.
We get it already, no need to keep regurgitate the same thing over and over.
Speaking from a spectator point of view i would say:
PvZ right now is pure bullshit and the Zerg just seems to roll dice until about 5 Minutes into the game... If he rolled a 5 or 6 he will actually go to lategame, if not he has allready lost.
Seriously... I feel like all i see is:
A: Zerg doing everything right and winning in a seemingly close battle.
B: Zerg getting steamrolled in mid or lategame.
C: Protoss being a retard dieing to some all-in.
D: Protoss being totally outclassed.
It's not even fun to watch right now.
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On January 26 2011 15:14 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 15:07 qwaykee wrote:
please tell me how to scout pre-lair when you have stalkers watching the edges of your base. u could try to sacrifice an OL if u thought it was reasonable, but if not that's totally understandable. however you at least get to have vision immediately outside the protoss base, which is more than protoss gets in pvz(absolutely no scouting info outside of their ramp)
Here's a question you always have to ask when you talk about scouting:
1) what are you looking for
and
2) How will that change what you do
Fact is from the time ling speed hits to the time you can get hallucination out from a 3-gate expand, there's really nothing you HAVE to see.
In ZvP you really need to be able to tell the difference between 4-gate, 3-gate stargate, 3-gate expand, 3-gate robo. Sometimes you can get enough clues and sometimes you cannot, and if you're wrong, you can often just lose because of it.
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On January 27 2011 00:39 decaf wrote:So, because you and your friends who are by no means good fail at PvZing it means that the match up is okay? Well, I guess all the pro Zergs in korea just need to l2p. You see how ridiculous your reasoning is? Show nested quote +the worst is zergs complaining about how hard it is to scout. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME. YOU HAVE OVERLORDS AND SPEEDLINGS. PROTOSS CAN'T SCOUT YOU AT ALL UNTIL HALLUCINATION OR OBSERVERS.
maybe that's because YOU DONT NEED TO SCOUT UNITL HALLUS OR OBSERVERS ARE OUT, BECAUSE ZERG AND NOT TOSS IS THE REACTIONARY RACE. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?
fuck yeah man. what decaf said^^ what the hell is a zerg going to do to you that you need to see? 1 base muta lmao. toss has 4 gate fun, void ray fun, phoenix awesomeness, dts, etc etc. and that can all be hidden in the main base of a toss. and that doesnt even include proxy bull shit. zerg does see 80% of the map, but whats the point if all that matters is the 20%?
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EPT
