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On January 28 2011 17:07 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 03:13 travis wrote:On January 27 2011 03:01 Chibalicious wrote:
No, you are the one not getting what (smart) zergs complain about; that they have to blind counter, rely on good map positions and in other ways flip a coin to win in any match up. It is frustrating as hell to lose to luck and not to skill.
protoss players have to deal with the exact same shit sometimes... what you're saying is soooo one sided. do you think cross position metal is easy pvz? or that you can't lose to bad luck when the zerg pumps mass speedlings then waits until you move to to the tower, surrounds you, and kills everything? Are you not making enough sentries? Cause pure speedling when a toss has sentries is just lol watch as you try to engage and he ff's and your lings can't even tough his army (don't even count when he traps half of your zerglings). I dunno why you would move out so early anyway if pure speeding is gonna beat you just stay on 2 base get sentry/colossi/stalker/zealot while expanding zergs not gonna break you lol just not possible if you use forcefields correctly.
the problem is that you have NO FUCKING IDEA whether he is making like 60 zerglings or not, and you wont be able to know as long as a scouting probe gets sniped by speedlings as it tries to escape the protoss natural. speedlings literally shutdown scouting unless you happen to scout with your whole army which might not even be big enough to deal with that many zerglings. and then you also have to deal with the issue of his zerglings doing a massive run-by as your army leaves, running away to safety before your slow ass sentries can make their way back to the nexus.
are you seriously so blinded by your bias that you didnt even understand what you responded to?
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On January 26 2011 14:30 travis wrote:
WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO? in WHAT DIMENSION IS THIS EASY?
Watch a replay
I dont get why you will insult zerg players because youre fucking awful at PvZ. There is so much bs in your post that i can say almost certainly that you have no understanding of the current metagame.. saying zerg can scout your base with speedlings... oh my god
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The main reason Zerg players QQ so much is because its much much much much much (x100) times easier for a Zerg to lose to a player worse than him just cause he didn't scout something or misjudged a push by less that a minute. Doesn't help that Zerg early game scouting is tough.
Like yesteday I lost 3 ZvPs to the same build. Guy opens with 2 void rays. I'm busy defending them by getting spores and 4 queens. Meanwhile he's walled in his natural and has a stalker checking his perimeter so I don't know if he follows up with more void rays, adds another stargate, expands, or pushes. 3 opposite ways for me to react, each one I basically lose if I guess wrong. I had to sac 2 overlords to scout him, but I didn't see anything in his base. Turns out he proxied 4 warpgates and followed up with a huge push (yes, this happened 3 fking times =_=). I knew something was up and prepared for a push as well as the possibiity of more void rays but he just had way too many units considering I spent so much on 2 void rays.
I'm actually really comfortable with late game Zerg and my midgame is really solid vs all races if I can get there on even footing. Problem is its so fucking easy to die as Zerg
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On January 28 2011 21:23 SubtleArt wrote:
The main reason Zerg players QQ so much is because its much much much much much (x100) times easier for a Zerg to lose to a player worse than him just cause he didn't scout something or misjudged a push by less that a minute. Doesn't help that Zerg early game scouting is tough.
Like yesteday I lost 3 ZvPs to the same build. Guy opens with 2 void rays. I'm busy defending them by getting spores and 4 queens. Meanwhile he's walled in his natural and has a stalker checking his perimeter so I don't know if he follows up with more void rays, adds another stargate, expands, or pushes. 3 opposite ways for me to react, each one I basically lose if I guess wrong. I had to sac 2 overlords to scout him, but I didn't see anything in his base. Turns out he proxied 4 warpgates and followed up with a huge push (yes, this happened 3 fking times =_=). I knew something was up and prepared for a push as well as the possibiity of more void rays but he just had way too many units considering I spent so much on 2 void rays.
I'm actually really comfortable with late game Zerg and my midgame is really solid vs all races if I can get there on even footing. Problem is its so fucking easy to die as Zerg
Seems like you lost too much defending VRs. I mean it's pretty obvious you should have been going for a big hydra/roach ball during the mid game to not die. Isn't that how most ZvPs go anyway?
Hydra/roach army, sac lings constantly to scout, add corruptors if you see colo or more void rays.
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On January 28 2011 23:42 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 21:23 SubtleArt wrote:
The main reason Zerg players QQ so much is because its much much much much much (x100) times easier for a Zerg to lose to a player worse than him just cause he didn't scout something or misjudged a push by less that a minute. Doesn't help that Zerg early game scouting is tough.
Like yesteday I lost 3 ZvPs to the same build. Guy opens with 2 void rays. I'm busy defending them by getting spores and 4 queens. Meanwhile he's walled in his natural and has a stalker checking his perimeter so I don't know if he follows up with more void rays, adds another stargate, expands, or pushes. 3 opposite ways for me to react, each one I basically lose if I guess wrong. I had to sac 2 overlords to scout him, but I didn't see anything in his base. Turns out he proxied 4 warpgates and followed up with a huge push (yes, this happened 3 fking times =_=). I knew something was up and prepared for a push as well as the possibiity of more void rays but he just had way too many units considering I spent so much on 2 void rays.
I'm actually really comfortable with late game Zerg and my midgame is really solid vs all races if I can get there on even footing. Problem is its so fucking easy to die as Zerg Seems like you lost too much defending VRs. I mean it's pretty obvious you should have been going for a big hydra/roach ball during the mid game to not die. Isn't that how most ZvPs go anyway? Hydra/roach army, sac lings constantly to scout, add corruptors if you see colo or more void rays.
I lost 1 overlord in total to 2 void rays. I lost cause I had to spend so much money (6 spores, 4 queens) on a threat that wasn't there. I assumed he'd follow up with more void ray / phoenix which is what so many toss do. For that my response was totally correct but he just stopped after the second void ray and went 4 warpgate all in. I tried to scout but since he proxied it was pretty much a 50 / 50 guess what he would follow up with and I guessed wrong.
Also this has nothing to do with the midgame. Yes you make roach hydra corruptor but this is an all in that hits before my lair is even done. Like I said, ZvP in the midgame seems ok (still protoss favored, but its at least managable). Its just the early game tahts bullshit and all the different protoss all ins there are and how hard it is for zerg to accurately scout if toss is careful.
@ OP I find that almost all Protoss who suck vs Zerg have trouble because their understanding of timings and when to attack is off. If you don't attack when you're supposed to and let Zerg get a really good economy unhindered you're going to lose but you really shouldn't be letting this happen. Its like letting a brood war Zerg get 4 gas hive with double evo upgrades unharassed.
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I kinda do find that Zerg has an inherit weakness in the early game and its mainly due to the fact that we can't get anti-air units until lair, which is kind of a big deal. Queens by themselves are really a crapshoot against void rays/banshees on their own and generally you won't be able to scout a 1gate 1star rush or a 1/1/1 banshee rush until after you see the unit themselves, and building additional queens asap is still too slow because of the build time of queens.
I don't think this is too much of a deal though in ZvP as I find that if I go lair right after my queen pops and make a hydra den the moment my lair finishes I am generally able to fend off void ray rushes with minimal damage and this doesn't really deter from my desired tech tree so it all works out pretty seamlessly. ZvT is an issue though, since hydras are pretty much useless for everything except defending against banshees. But even then, I still do put down the hydra den when lair finishes if the Terran is doing a 1base build. It's just better to be safe than take the risk at this point.
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On January 28 2011 18:47 kerminator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 14:30 travis wrote:
WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO? in WHAT DIMENSION IS THIS EASY? Watch a replay I dont get why you will insult zerg players because youre fucking awful at PvZ. There is so much bs in your post that i can say almost certainly that you have no understanding of the current metagame.. saying zerg can scout your base with speedlings... oh my god
where did I say zerg can scout your base with speedlings? and I never insulted zerg players. good job though, you clearly have high levels of reading comprehension.
also i like how this thread never goes away, hopefully it stays that way forever
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This is probably the best/funniest blogs I've read in awhile. And I'm a zerg player. People's responses make me lol.
It's a good thing people love using sweeping generalizations of entire groups of people...makes for much better blogs.
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On January 28 2011 17:18 kyarisan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 17:07 blade55555 wrote:On January 27 2011 03:13 travis wrote:On January 27 2011 03:01 Chibalicious wrote:
No, you are the one not getting what (smart) zergs complain about; that they have to blind counter, rely on good map positions and in other ways flip a coin to win in any match up. It is frustrating as hell to lose to luck and not to skill.
protoss players have to deal with the exact same shit sometimes... what you're saying is soooo one sided. do you think cross position metal is easy pvz? or that you can't lose to bad luck when the zerg pumps mass speedlings then waits until you move to to the tower, surrounds you, and kills everything? Are you not making enough sentries? Cause pure speedling when a toss has sentries is just lol watch as you try to engage and he ff's and your lings can't even tough his army (don't even count when he traps half of your zerglings). I dunno why you would move out so early anyway if pure speeding is gonna beat you just stay on 2 base get sentry/colossi/stalker/zealot while expanding zergs not gonna break you lol just not possible if you use forcefields correctly. the problem is that you have NO FUCKING IDEA whether he is making like 60 zerglings or not, and you wont be able to know as long as a scouting probe gets sniped by speedlings as it tries to escape the protoss natural. speedlings literally shutdown scouting unless you happen to scout with your whole army which might not even be big enough to deal with that many zerglings. and then you also have to deal with the issue of his zerglings doing a massive run-by as your army leaves, running away to safety before your slow ass sentries can make their way back to the nexus. are you seriously so blinded by your bias that you didnt even understand what you responded to?
Rofl get 1 collosus and those speedlings are literally useless
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On January 29 2011 04:37 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 17:18 kyarisan wrote:On January 28 2011 17:07 blade55555 wrote:On January 27 2011 03:13 travis wrote:On January 27 2011 03:01 Chibalicious wrote:
No, you are the one not getting what (smart) zergs complain about; that they have to blind counter, rely on good map positions and in other ways flip a coin to win in any match up. It is frustrating as hell to lose to luck and not to skill.
protoss players have to deal with the exact same shit sometimes... what you're saying is soooo one sided. do you think cross position metal is easy pvz? or that you can't lose to bad luck when the zerg pumps mass speedlings then waits until you move to to the tower, surrounds you, and kills everything? Are you not making enough sentries? Cause pure speedling when a toss has sentries is just lol watch as you try to engage and he ff's and your lings can't even tough his army (don't even count when he traps half of your zerglings). I dunno why you would move out so early anyway if pure speeding is gonna beat you just stay on 2 base get sentry/colossi/stalker/zealot while expanding zergs not gonna break you lol just not possible if you use forcefields correctly. the problem is that you have NO FUCKING IDEA whether he is making like 60 zerglings or not, and you wont be able to know as long as a scouting probe gets sniped by speedlings as it tries to escape the protoss natural. speedlings literally shutdown scouting unless you happen to scout with your whole army which might not even be big enough to deal with that many zerglings. and then you also have to deal with the issue of his zerglings doing a massive run-by as your army leaves, running away to safety before your slow ass sentries can make their way back to the nexus. are you seriously so blinded by your bias that you didnt even understand what you responded to? Rofl get 1 collosus and those speedlings are literally useless
this is such a stupid thing to say
like, just amazingly stupid, for multiple reasons
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As someone who has played both Protoss and Zerg, I find the match up to be pretty well balanced to be honest. :/
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i like this thread, 5/5 OP
i never remember zerg being this whiny in BW, I think idra may be a bad influence on people
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Ugh ...
"i can't believe how much zerg whine"
"I seriously win like 1 out of 3 pvz, it's by far my worst matchup, and most protoss i know say it's hard too."
"ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME. YOU HAVE OVERLORDS AND SPEEDLINGS. PROTOSS CAN'T SCOUT YOU AT ALL UNTIL HALLUCINATION OR OBSERVERS."
"seriously, the only way i ever win is by not engaging until I have a ridiculous army and then hoping the zerg wasn't good enough to take every base on the map in the mean time."
"this rant was brought to you by me losing pretty much every pvz i've had for my last 20 pvz or so."
"First class, yo this is bad, drinking orange juice out of a champagne glass is this what the people of Bel-Air livin' like, hmm this might be alright!"
"I whistled for a cab and when it came near the licensplate said "Fresh" and had a dice in the mirror if anything I could say that this cab was rare but I thought now forget it, yo home to Bel-Air"
"I pulled up to a house about seven or eight and I yelled to the cabby "Yo, home smell you later" looked at my kingdom I was finally there to settle my throne as the prince of Bel-Air"
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Whatever. You spend half your OP complaining about how much zergs complain, the other half complaining about how unfair and difficult PvZ is because you are bad at it.
I'm unimpressed. Honestly this thread hasn't been closed solely because of your position in the TL hierarchy of post count/join date. I think you're an awesome poster most of the time, but this sucks dude. Why go there?
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On January 29 2011 06:34 Lexpar wrote:
Whatever. You spend half your OP complaining about how much zergs complain, the other half complaining about how unfair and difficult PvZ is because you are bad at it.
I'm unimpressed. Honestly this thread hasn't been closed solely because of your position in the TL hierarchy of post count/join date. I think you're an awesome poster most of the time, but this sucks dude. Why go there?
ugh
I never said zerg was unfair! You don't understand the OP at all!
I am saying that protoss players can make the exact kind of complaints that zerg players make. When did I say there was anything unfair about it??
do you not get how annoying it is to have every other zerg i talk to say "pvz is so easy"? as I lose over and over? It's not that easy.
I don't tell zergs that zvp is easy, and I never complain about the matchup being imbalanced, DESPITE having incredible troubles with it.
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Honestly zergs do complain alot. Actually, every race complains alot. It's sort of sad. Like I was saying to this terran, "Hey, promise to both do macro game?" He does, he ends up losing. But he made several mistakes, such as not having enough turrets, not seiging in time, so forth. And at the end, he doesn't say "gg" or anything, he just says "This is why no one plays macro games vs zerg."
But you just need to look at Jinro, MvP, Mihai(from Catz from Mihai showmatch), and see that macro is possible.
I mean, on a constant basis, over half of my games I get all ined. I get 2 rax scv all-in'd, I get four gated, I get 6 pooled, I get thor rushed, I get 3 gate void ray rushed. And I get pissed off. I get annoyed that because they feel they can't "compete" in a macro game, they all in. Because they cry "imbalance."
Yet I never get mad at the races, or cry imbalance. I get mad at the players for doing that, and mad at myself for not stopping it. Until I'm the best player in the world, and still losing games, I have no ability to say that imbalance played any more of a factor than my mistakes in the game.
I just feel that's a general problem now. Instead of actively trying to figure out "how do I beat this build" we just end up posting on TL saying how OP it is.
Anyway, just my two cents.
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On January 29 2011 07:54 Pandain wrote:
Honestly zergs do complain alot. Actually, every race complains alot. It's sort of sad. Like I was saying to this terran, "Hey, promise to both do macro game?" He does, he ends up losing. But he made several mistakes, such as not having enough turrets, not seiging in time, so forth. And at the end, he doesn't say "gg" or anything, he just says "This is why no one plays macro games vs zerg."
But you just need to look at Jinro, MvP, Mihai(from Catz from Mihai showmatch), and see that macro is possible.
I mean, on a constant basis, over half of my games I get all ined. I get 2 rax scv all-in'd, I get four gated, I get 6 pooled, I get thor rushed, I get 3 gate void ray rushed. And I get pissed off. I get annoyed that because they feel they can't "compete" in a macro game, they all in. Because they cry "imbalance."
Yet I never get mad at the races, or cry imbalance. I get mad at the players for doing that, and mad at myself for not stopping it. Until I'm the best player in the world, and still losing games, I have no ability to say that imbalance played any more of a factor than my mistakes in the game.
I just feel that's a general problem now. Instead of actively trying to figure out "how do I beat this build" we just end up posting on TL saying how OP it is.
Anyway, just my two cents.
Well all races complain the same about their macro and unit strength, you just gotta accept that some people like to think they lost cause the game is unfair not cause they suck (not to say everythings fine with the game, but most complaints are knee jerk reactions to a losing streak). Reason you see Zerg complain more is because on top of that, Zerg is also really vulnerable to bullshit all in builds and even pressure --> expand builds. Like I said a few posts up, its really easy for a good zerg to lose to a bad protoss but not vice versa.
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On January 26 2011 14:30 travis wrote:
I forge expand scrap station? they baneling bust.
I forge expand to void ray shakuras? nydus in my base i barely fail to stop it lings stream in there goes my main.
I try to hard 4gate? fast roach and lings.
I play 3gate sentry expand on metalopolis? Guy outmacros me off his 2 bases and uses the wide area around the expansion to repeatedly attack me and i can't hold it.
I go 2gate robo? Opponent goes mass speedlings into muta. WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO? in WHAT DIMENSION IS THIS EASY?
Should have forcefields/canons up in time to stop this.
Should have bldgs/units around to easily stop nydus. 5-6 Probes can kill a nydus easily before it finishes.
4gate is all in but hard to read, I'd say it's got a greater than 50% chance to win vs most Z . Even when read, there sometimes just isn't much you can do if you already made too many drones, or the stalker force moves out and caps a few overlords.
when toss gets up 2nd base they can basically afford to get colosus/storm while still taking a 3rd with canons and shit.
not sure about the last one.
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What about this?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167992
Putting stress on:
On November 11 2010 01:05 sleepingdog wrote:
I can't stress enough how CRITICAL it is to get the timings right. NEXGenius lost a game vs Leenock on Metalopolis (into ragequit lol) because he started retreating his 2 initial stalkers just a few seconds too late. I think the user "Friend23" or sth like that posted the timings some days ago, if you scout the gas you have about 3:15 ingame until you are up against speedlings.
To extend my thoughts from there: I think you should emphazise more that the scouting of the gas early on is THE most aspect in the whole PvZ early game matchup. Of course you will scout for early expo..duh..that's standard. But many fail to realize how important it is to scout how early zerg goes for gas.
Because if he does NOT go for early gas this means he intends to play economicly greedy and you HAVE to do "something" or get outmacroed like roflwhat.
Opposed to this, if you see early gas you can play it more safe (zealot/sentry-expand) because zerg sacrifices mineral-mining in order to get "something" that isn't a drone. Be it speedlings, be it roach, it won't matter much because it means that you can now play it more safely. A 3 gate sentry-expand should do fine if zerg goes for fast(er) speedlings and also does very fine vs any sort of standard 2 hatch roach play (as seen from Nony vs Idra, where Nony stomped over Idra's roach-push-attempt close positions on lost temple).
I mean
+ Show Spoiler +On January 27 2011 02:54 travis wrote:
Lots of you are too stupid to get it, I'm saying that pvz is plenty hard this isn't a one sided affair. If I am losing to players because I don't play well enough (which is probably the case), then that is totally fine. My point is that it's NOT AT ALL EASY.
As for the people who responded to me "there is nothing protoss would need to scout until hallucination anyways", that's absolute bullshit. There's been so many pvzs where if I had 4gated I would have won the game, but instead I 3gate sentry expand and wait for hallucination, then I watch the replay and until I had hallucination they literally made only drones with their 4 speedlings outside my ramp preventing a probe from leaving.
the reason i made this rage blog isn't because im losing pvz. it's because im losing pvz AND meanwhile every other zerg on the planet, both better than me and worse than me, is complaining about how imbalanced and hard the matchup is for them.
What results does early Stalker pressure give you?
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I tend to go stalker pressure if zerg doesn't early gas. If they do I tend to 3gate sentry expand w/ hallu.
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EPT
