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god damn, seriously. i can't believe how much zerg whine. especially about pvz. I seriously win like 1 out of 3 pvz, it's by far my worst matchup, and most protoss i know say it's hard too. I am by no means a bad player, pvz is NOT easy. lately I've even had these fucking zergs complaining about forcefields during the game AND THEN THEY BEAT ME.
the worst is zergs complaining about how hard it is to scout. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME. YOU HAVE OVERLORDS AND SPEEDLINGS. PROTOSS CAN'T SCOUT YOU AT ALL UNTIL HALLUCINATION OR OBSERVERS.
god, seriously, it's so fucking ridiculous. what is it about pvz im not understanding? seriously, the only way i ever win is by not engaging until I have a ridiculous army and then hoping the zerg wasn't good enough to take every base on the map in the mean time.
this rant was brought to you by me losing pretty much every pvz i've had for my last 20 pvz or so. I forge expand scrap station? they baneling bust. I forge expand to void ray shakuras? nydus in my base i barely fail to stop it lings stream in there goes my main. I try to hard 4gate? fast roach and lings. I play 3gate sentry expand on metalopolis? Guy outmacros me off his 2 bases and uses the wide area around the expansion to repeatedly attack me and i can't hold it. I go 2gate robo? Opponent goes mass speedlings into muta. WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO? in WHAT DIMENSION IS THIS EASY?
 
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YEEEES.
I've been waiting for someone to say this. <3 5 stars
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I'm terran so i don't really know much about the match-up, but from what I've heard protoss all ins are really strong. Since there are a variety of all ins, and most of them require a different response, it makes it hard for the zergs to defend. That is what I've heard from my zerg friend, i haven't had any protoss say anything though.
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Couldn't agree more. This trend of blaming everything on balance is really annoying.
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okay so you make the conclusion that PvZ is not broken based on the fact that you suck at PvZ? not very convincing at all...
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I've been told there is no way a zerg should win this mu, but personally it has been my worst mu recently.
Edit: It's not about imbalance. It's about whining. Don't.
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god damn, seriously. i can't believe how much protoss whine. especially about pvz. I seriously win like 1 out of 3 zvp, it's by far my worst matchup, and most zerg i know say it's hard too. I am by no means a bad player, zvp is NOT easy. lately I've even had these fucking protoss complaining about roaches during the game AND THEN THEY BEAT ME.
the worst is protoss complaining about how hard it is to scout. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME. YOU HAVE HALUCINATIONS AND CLOAKED DETECTORS. ZERG CAN'T SCOUT YOU AT ALL ONCE A STALKER IS OUT WITHOUT SACRIFICING AN OVERLORD.
god, seriously, it's so fucking ridiculous. what is it about zvp im not understanding? seriously, the only way i ever win is by not engaging until I have a ridiculous army and then hoping the protoss wasn't good enough to attack with his 2 base death ball.
this rant was brought to you by me losing pretty much every zvp i've had for my last 20 zvp or so. I 14 hatch on scrap station? they cannon rush. I speedling expand on shakuras? warp prism 4 gate in my base i barely fail to stop it zealot stream in there goes my nat. I try to hard roach rush? sentries and cannons. I play muta on metalopolis? Guy 1a's uses the wide area around the expansion to repeatedly attack me and i can't hold it. I go drone heavy? Opponent goes mass gateway units into collosus. I go one of the 3 builds zerg has? Protoss uses one of the 20 they have. WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO? in WHAT DIMENSION IS THIS EASY?
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On January 26 2011 14:39 5unrise wrote:
okay so you make the conclusion that PvZ is not broken based on the fact that you suck at PvZ? not very convincing at all...
Nah, I think him going on a tilt was simply what inspired the blog.
The Zerg qq is all like "we don't have a scouting unit" when clearly Zerg players have overlords and overseers, speedlings, etc etc etc. There's a lot of other things too, but this is just one example.
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I play protoss and I dont think PvZ is that hard. TvZ is really easy though (im protoss but i offrace a lot). PvZ I just 4 gate, or 2 gate star and get 2 VR and then get phoenix so when you attack you get about 2 phoenix to lift up 2 queen and you have VR...
or you do 3 gate rush, or 4 gate rush and those work pretty well. Pretty much zerg will fast expand so try to do something lame and win fast because late game (once they get mutas) its a lot harder.
its especially easy to win on maps like xelnaga/metal where its harder to defend as your nat is more open...bases like LT iunno, its hard =/
also dont forget to wall ! (with a hole for zealots)
thats all the simple advice i can give but im no pro and you might be better than me even
just have funnn
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I'm pretty bad at ZvP but this
I forge expand scrap station? they baneling bust. I forge expand to void ray shakuras? nydus in my base i barely fail to stop it lings stream in there goes my main. I try to hard 4gate? fast roach and lings. I play 3gate sentry expand on metalopolis? Guy outmacros me off his 2 bases and uses the wide area around the expansion to repeatedly attack me and i can't hold it. I go 2gate robo? Opponent goes mass speedlings into muta. WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO? in WHAT DIMENSION IS THIS EASY?
should improve my play a lot.
In all seriousness it's probably all just a bias. For Zerg's, IMO, it's just that you lose in the most shittiest ways. As in, your army gets absolutely melted when you lose and there is nothing you can do about it. You can't prevent a forcefield and you can't prevent a graviton beam no matter how hard you micro. The Protoss can control the engagement in a straight up game. In the most general sense, Zerg can lose to situations that they cannot do anything to avoid, and it makes it feel like the race is really weak if you can't prevent certain situations from happening, which makes it more prone to "complaint".
IdrA probably said it best when he said that Zerg was a race you don't "come back" from. As Zerg, when you're behind you can't make magic happen, none of their units are as cost efficient as Storm or Collosi or MMM. Again, I'm not pointing fingers at any imbalance, but I think this aspect of Zerg is what makes most people feel like its a very difficult race to handle at times.
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Well I'm low level player, but I open phoenix (two base or one base depending on map, but I imagine at top levels you'll two base most of the time) almost every game against zerg and it's my best matchup. I think air is the key.
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Bit of friendly advice: don't look at the Random Pictures thread - they're everywhere!
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I read everything looking for subliminal messages.
I am sorely disappointed by lack of fresh prince 
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ZvP was my best matchup then it took a plummet. The problem like you said is no scout until robo and if I go robo tech and they go muta/ling I am basically forced to do a base trade or lose to 4-5 bases mass expand. When I do scout a spire, I throw down 2 stargate and start pumping pheonix. Then I realize the zerg already switched to mass hydra/roach and I have 2 stargate and a bunch of useless pheonix.
I really don't understand how toss is favored in this match. Maybe at pro level, toss gets boost but Im not really sure.
But what annoy me is when whether they "zerg" win or lose say "toss op cuz idra said so"
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On January 26 2011 14:37 ludic123 wrote:
Couldn't agree more. This trend of blaming everything on balance is really annoying.
Says the terran...
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If your protoss and loosing to zerg, your not applying enough pressure while playing a safe macro style (x gate sentry expo).
If your zerg and your loosing to protoss, your not containing them enough, and there is no harassment. (Muta-ling, roaches perhaps, drops, bane's planted at future expos mineral lines, etc.)
Top level, is where zerg isn't playing the MU correctly. You can't play it like vs a T, you have force an aggressive contain, and make him work hard for every expansion, while out expanding him to keep up pressure.
btw im toss
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Lets be honest here, if we considered BW races as additional 3 races for a total of 6 races, noone would be complaining about how hard T/P/Z are in sc2. I think SC2 is pretty relaxing and not as difficult as people portray it no matter what race u play. A little perspective doesnt hurt 
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If you wanted... we could play a game sometime... and you could stomp me?
Or do I really have Godly Zerg skills?
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embrace the rage travis! haha love seeing other rageblogs.
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I like this. Namely because it highlights that things aren't necessarily greener on the other side of the fence. Getting frustrated after a loss is fine, whining about UP/OP imba nonsense just because you lost isn't. I'm looking at you, complainers.
At least Blizzard knows what it's doing and ignores the pitchfork masses on the important issues.
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Same happens with TvZ -.-;
I win a game after like 30 minutes and the zerg is like "you just made marines all game long"
and calls me out for not getting upgrades.
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I've thought about writing a long post in the strategy forum about how idra, ret, artosis and other assorted community macro zergs are unintentionally ruining standard zerg play. Average players and idiots copy their playstyles badly and dont realize what makes those players decent is their game sense and not that they 15hatch.
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On January 26 2011 14:30 travis wrote:
god damn, seriously. i can't believe how much zerg whine. especially about pvz. I seriously win like 1 out of 3 pvz, it's by far my worst matchup, and most protoss i know say it's hard too. I am by no means a bad player, pvz is NOT easy. lately I've even had these fucking zergs complaining about forcefields during the game AND THEN THEY BEAT ME.
the worst is zergs complaining about how hard it is to scout. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME. YOU HAVE OVERLORDS AND SPEEDLINGS. PROTOSS CAN'T SCOUT YOU AT ALL UNTIL HALLUCINATION OR OBSERVERS.
god, seriously, it's so fucking ridiculous. what is it about pvz im not understanding? seriously, the only way i ever win is by not engaging until I have a ridiculous army and then hoping the zerg wasn't good enough to take every base on the map in the mean time.
this rant was brought to you by me losing pretty much every pvz i've had for my last 20 pvz or so. I forge expand scrap station? they baneling bust. I forge expand to void ray shakuras? nydus in my base i barely fail to stop it lings stream in there goes my main. I try to hard 4gate? fast roach and lings. I play 3gate sentry expand on metalopolis? Guy outmacros me off his 2 bases and uses the wide area around the expansion to repeatedly attack me and i can't hold it. I go 2gate robo? Opponent goes mass speedlings into muta. WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO? in WHAT DIMENSION IS THIS EASY?
Scouting is pretty difficult for zerg. Even with all the tools (overlords/speedlings). Its not easy to pick up on everything, especially when you can fake things. That being said, it is possible.
The matchup isnt easy for both toss and zerg. I believe this matchup is one of the best, and most balanced. I feel like the sentry expand strategy is really safe for toss and the forge expand is generally weaker. Im a 3k master zerg and think I have a decent handle on zvp. Im not pro, but if you want to post up some replays maybe we could help you out. Or play some games, Medzo.874
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PvZ is pretty balanced at this point imo. The skill of the players will pretty much determine who wins.
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Battle.net forums has tons of whining, more than here. Visit it for the Lulz :D I play Zerg and i don't complain or whine. A loss is a loss, accept it and analyse your mistakes. That is all.
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Come on travis, those speedlings aren't going to chase your probe down if you try to scout anything. Don't worry so much.
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please tell me how to scout pre-lair when you have stalkers watching the edges of your base.
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People complaining about balance in a game they go on to win is the worst.
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On January 26 2011 15:07 qwaykee wrote:
please tell me how to scout pre-lair when you have stalkers watching the edges of your base.
u could try to sacrifice an OL if u thought it was reasonable, but if not that's totally understandable. however you at least get to have vision immediately outside the protoss base, which is more than protoss gets in pvz(absolutely no scouting info outside of their ramp)
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On January 26 2011 14:53 Loser777 wrote:
Same happens with TvZ -.-;
I win a game after like 30 minutes and the zerg is like "you just made marines all game long"
and calls me out for not getting upgrades.
Omg so true, hate it when they call me out for making Marines. Hell i don;t complain about you making Zealots of Zerglings. What the heck people.
I have a 3 rax PvZ build were i only make Marines and get +1 atk stim and Combat. This hits around the usual time a normal 3 rax does. My opponent goes for a fast Collo and a bunch of sentries. I flank him and kill his collo. He then goes to BM me for cheesing. You frikkin build hard counter mine.
And to many people complain about Terran pwn Zerg. I get my butt handed to me all the time. Idra started wining his TvZs so he stopped complaining so much about TvZ. And now its TvP he complains about.
I'm just so sick of the constant complaining. Makes me want to BBS someone, but Blizzard killed that.
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I'm a master protoss and all you're ranting about here are your own failings but I guess you can get away with it due to your post count...
Pressure more, if you telegraph 3-gate expo's by staying passive you will get rolled in the macro war and things like losing to speedling nydus after an fe is completely on you. TBH i feel PvZ is if anything slightly P favoured depending on the map.
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On January 26 2011 14:53 Loser777 wrote:
Same happens with TvZ -.-;
I win a game after like 30 minutes and the zerg is like "you just made marines all game long"
and calls me out for not getting upgrades.
If my T opponents didn't get any upgrades for 30 minutes I would love them forever.
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On January 26 2011 15:21 Scarecrow wrote:
I'm a master protoss and all you're ranting about here are your own failings but I guess you can get away with it due to your post count...
Pressure more, if you telegraph 3-gate expo's by staying passive you will get rolled in the macro war and things like losing to speedling nydus after an fe is completely on you. TBH i feel PvZ is if anything slightly P favoured depending on the map.
I was never trying to complain that pvz was imbalanced, I was saying zerg's complaints are out of proportion and at least at my level or worse(the vast majority of players), complaining seems absolutely ridiculous.
I never said I played better in my games(though I think lots of them involved lots of luck), I do think I there was a lot to improve in those games.
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travis you could always just come back to LoL
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Z needs a Zergs Anonymous group. They are definately the bitchy whiners of SC2. But you cant really blame them, ever since beta cheese after cheese 5rax reap lol, dual port banshee lol. They just were tormented.
In conclusion Blizz needs to pay for psychological support for all Z players.
Totally realistic I know.
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maybe you should go back to sc:bw!
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5/5, z players can be so irritating omg
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My issue with PvZ comes in the form of this build. My opponent opens 3 gate expand into 6 gate pressure then dual robo collosus. He then takes a safe third and disallows me to multi-prong attack with roaches/lings. Then throws down some stargates, pump voids and maxs while getting neccesary ups (attack, defense and blink), he is more or less unkillable and forces me to engage an uber-death ball which i must trade a huge roach army while sniping collosus/voids then remax immediately on roaches and ensure I don't lose my exterior mining bases which are key once I spend my resource surplus. If I beat his army, its gg and pumping hive units ensures. However, any mistake while doing this I face death. I feel that there are very few windows to hit the protoss without mutas (which are difficult to justify considering the strength of 2 base gate way pushes). While there are many windows where he can hit me and do massive damage if I deviate from a roach/corrupter army.
Perhaps their are other approaches I need to investigate, put personally, this is the most solid/safe way to play I have found. Hopefully I can find an answer somewhere, but I'm struggling.
I think Zerg should be frustrated with the state of the game. We feel unable to execute pressure while remaining in control of a strong economy and a safe fall back if we don't succeed in doing damage. All the while, we walk a very thin line in engagements where we are almost guaranteed to lose fights or key positions if we allow the P or T to gain a foot hold near us: Think seige tanks guarded with minimal flanking positions while rines can continually poke at us (Shakuras rock guarded pathway between bases is a good example) or a Protoss ball that makes its way into an enclosed space near an expansion where forcefields gain maximum effectiveness. Being a reactive race, we usually need time to pump a final round of units when we see a push, so with short rush distances, it is really difficult to stall an opponents movement towards an advantages position without huge sacrifices.
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On January 26 2011 15:43 Dali. wrote:
My issue with PvZ comes in the form of this build. My opponent opens 3 gate expand into 6 gate pressure then dual robo collosus. He then takes a safe third and disallows me to multi-prong attack with roaches/lings. Then throws down some stargates, pump voids and maxs while getting neccesary ups (attack, defense and blink), he is more or less unkillable and forces me to engage an uber-death ball which i must trade a huge roach army while sniping collosus/voids then remax immediately on roaches and ensure I don't lose my exterior mining bases which are key once I spend my resource surplus. If I beat his army, its gg and pumping hive units ensures. However, any mistake while doing this I face death. I feel that there are very few windows to hit the protoss without mutas (which are difficult to justify considering the strength of 2 base gate way pushes). While there are many windows where he can hit me and do massive damage if I deviate from a roach/corrupter army.
Perhaps their are other approaches I need to investigate, put personally, this is the most solid/safe way to play I have found. Hopefully I can find an answer somewhere, but I'm struggling.
I think Zerg should be frustrated with the state of the game. We feel unable to execute pressure while remaining in control of a strong economy and a safe fall back if we don't succeed in doing damage. All the while, we walk a very thin line in engagements where we are almost guaranteed to lose fights or key positions if we allow the P or T to gain a foot hold near us: Think seige tanks guarded with minimal flanking positions while rines can continually poke at us (Shakuras rock guarded pathway between bases is a good example) or a Protoss ball that makes its way into an enclosed space near an expansion where forcefields gain maximum effectiveness. Being a reactive race, we usually need time to pump a final round of units when we see a push, so with short rush distances, it is really difficult to stall an opponents movement towards an advantages position without huge sacrifices.
Im sorry all I heard was blah blah blah I don't know how to play. You think starcraft was so easily figured out? For fucks sake people it took about 8 years before 3hatch muta->5 hatch hydra even came about and then another ~1.5 years before Protoss finally have a reasonable counter to it(corsair/zealot midgame push into storm/corsair/archons/reaver/zealot/goon). Fucking you shouldn't feel frustrated and instead you should be finding protoss practice partners and ironing out your builds/strategies. So fucking sick of this god damn whine bull shit.
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3hatch spire -> 5hatch != 3hatch muta -> 5hatch hydra
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On January 26 2011 16:24 koreasilver wrote:
3hatch spire -> 5hatch != 3hatch muta -> 5hatch hydra
thank you for that moot point, I can tell from the way you responded you have no real basis or even a "rebuttal" thanks for playing.
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Zerg complains about scouting?
Wow...
I tried to learn Terran and was so mad at how I could not get to see a single damn thing on my opponent's base unless I used a scan.
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On January 26 2011 16:21 Trowabarton756 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 15:43 Dali. wrote:
My issue with PvZ comes in the form of this build. My opponent opens 3 gate expand into 6 gate pressure then dual robo collosus. He then takes a safe third and disallows me to multi-prong attack with roaches/lings. Then throws down some stargates, pump voids and maxs while getting neccesary ups (attack, defense and blink), he is more or less unkillable and forces me to engage an uber-death ball which i must trade a huge roach army while sniping collosus/voids then remax immediately on roaches and ensure I don't lose my exterior mining bases which are key once I spend my resource surplus. If I beat his army, its gg and pumping hive units ensures. However, any mistake while doing this I face death. I feel that there are very few windows to hit the protoss without mutas (which are difficult to justify considering the strength of 2 base gate way pushes). While there are many windows where he can hit me and do massive damage if I deviate from a roach/corrupter army.
Perhaps their are other approaches I need to investigate, put personally, this is the most solid/safe way to play I have found. Hopefully I can find an answer somewhere, but I'm struggling.
I think Zerg should be frustrated with the state of the game. We feel unable to execute pressure while remaining in control of a strong economy and a safe fall back if we don't succeed in doing damage. All the while, we walk a very thin line in engagements where we are almost guaranteed to lose fights or key positions if we allow the P or T to gain a foot hold near us: Think seige tanks guarded with minimal flanking positions while rines can continually poke at us (Shakuras rock guarded pathway between bases is a good example) or a Protoss ball that makes its way into an enclosed space near an expansion where forcefields gain maximum effectiveness. Being a reactive race, we usually need time to pump a final round of units when we see a push, so with short rush distances, it is really difficult to stall an opponents movement towards an advantages position without huge sacrifices.
Im sorry all I heard was blah blah blah I don't know how to play. You think starcraft was so easily figured out? For fucks sake people it took about 8 years before 3hatch muta->5 hatch hydra even came about and then another ~1.5 years before Protoss finally have a reasonable counter to it(corsair/zealot midgame push into storm/corsair/archons/reaver/zealot/goon). Fucking you shouldn't feel frustrated and instead you should be finding protoss practice partners and ironing out your builds/strategies. So fucking sick of this god damn whine bull shit.
Seriously? I was simply outlining a few reasons why Zerg players have felt hard done by. I wasn't intending to whine, just placing my perspective as a Zerg player on why there is a trend of QQ from my race. Time spent QQing would be better spent practicing.
But anyways, you're acting like an idiot and presented nothing of interest other than whine yourself. Manner up.
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On January 26 2011 16:25 Trowabarton756 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 16:24 koreasilver wrote:
3hatch spire -> 5hatch != 3hatch muta -> 5hatch hydra thank you for that moot point, I can tell from the way you responded you have no real basis or even a "rebuttal" thanks for playing.
Are you serious? There's a huge difference from opening 3hatch mutas and opening 3hatch spire -> 5hatch. This isn't just semantics. The fact that you don't even understand the difference is extremely disturbing for someone that supposedly watches BW.
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 26 2011 16:35 Dali. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 16:21 Trowabarton756 wrote:On January 26 2011 15:43 Dali. wrote:
My issue with PvZ comes in the form of this build. My opponent opens 3 gate expand into 6 gate pressure then dual robo collosus. He then takes a safe third and disallows me to multi-prong attack with roaches/lings. Then throws down some stargates, pump voids and maxs while getting neccesary ups (attack, defense and blink), he is more or less unkillable and forces me to engage an uber-death ball which i must trade a huge roach army while sniping collosus/voids then remax immediately on roaches and ensure I don't lose my exterior mining bases which are key once I spend my resource surplus. If I beat his army, its gg and pumping hive units ensures. However, any mistake while doing this I face death. I feel that there are very few windows to hit the protoss without mutas (which are difficult to justify considering the strength of 2 base gate way pushes). While there are many windows where he can hit me and do massive damage if I deviate from a roach/corrupter army.
Perhaps their are other approaches I need to investigate, put personally, this is the most solid/safe way to play I have found. Hopefully I can find an answer somewhere, but I'm struggling.
I think Zerg should be frustrated with the state of the game. We feel unable to execute pressure while remaining in control of a strong economy and a safe fall back if we don't succeed in doing damage. All the while, we walk a very thin line in engagements where we are almost guaranteed to lose fights or key positions if we allow the P or T to gain a foot hold near us: Think seige tanks guarded with minimal flanking positions while rines can continually poke at us (Shakuras rock guarded pathway between bases is a good example) or a Protoss ball that makes its way into an enclosed space near an expansion where forcefields gain maximum effectiveness. Being a reactive race, we usually need time to pump a final round of units when we see a push, so with short rush distances, it is really difficult to stall an opponents movement towards an advantages position without huge sacrifices.
Im sorry all I heard was blah blah blah I don't know how to play. You think starcraft was so easily figured out? For fucks sake people it took about 8 years before 3hatch muta->5 hatch hydra even came about and then another ~1.5 years before Protoss finally have a reasonable counter to it(corsair/zealot midgame push into storm/corsair/archons/reaver/zealot/goon). Fucking you shouldn't feel frustrated and instead you should be finding protoss practice partners and ironing out your builds/strategies. So fucking sick of this god damn whine bull shit. Seriously? I was simply outlining a few reasons why Zerg players have felt hard done by. I wasn't intending to whine, just placing my perspective as a Zerg player on why there is a trend of QQ from my race. Time spent QQing would be better spent practicing. But anyways, you're acting like an idiot and presented nothing of interest other than whine yourself. Manner up.
Lol? Every race has its problems, there is nothing to "feel hard done by". Don't like it, switch races.
+ Show Spoiler +On January 26 2011 16:48 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 16:25 Trowabarton756 wrote:On January 26 2011 16:24 koreasilver wrote:
3hatch spire -> 5hatch != 3hatch muta -> 5hatch hydra thank you for that moot point, I can tell from the way you responded you have no real basis or even a "rebuttal" thanks for playing. Are you serious? There's a huge difference from opening 3hatch mutas and opening 3hatch spire -> 5hatch. This isn't just semantics. The fact that you don't even understand the difference is extremely disturbing for someone that supposedly watches BW.
It is just semantics, ITS A FUCKING STRATEGY THAT STILL DIDN'T ORIGINATE FOR A LONG TIME. You're trying to prove my point wrong by doing semantics(such as doing the spire for a few scourge to kill the initial scouting corsair versus muta harass, you're right on this one, my point is it still doesn't matter, BECAUSE THOSE FUCKING BUILDS HAVE BEEN FINE TUNED OVER A LONG PERIOD OF TIME. Thank you for again proving nothing, zerg players just need to put in the hours because the only thing holding zergs back are themselves.
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It's not semantics when the builds are completely different and served different purposes in completely different timelines. You're mistaking a build that never really existed with a rather modern build that began to develop 2-3 years ago. This is a pretty big deal.
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On January 26 2011 17:00 koreasilver wrote:
It's not semantics when the builds are completely different and served different purposes in completely different timelines. You're mistaking a build that never really existed with a rather modern build that began to develop 2-3 years ago. This is a pretty big deal.
Lol? You're still clinging to shreds and still haven't disproven that these strategies aren't things that are made over night. I admited I may of mixed up the builds 2 posts above, yet you keep bringing it up like it has a variable in this equation, the truth is that it still took many years to develop and perfect and it was developed in response to bisu's style of FE with corsairs.
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On January 26 2011 16:57 Trowabarton756 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 26 2011 16:35 Dali. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 16:21 Trowabarton756 wrote:On January 26 2011 15:43 Dali. wrote:
My issue with PvZ comes in the form of this build. My opponent opens 3 gate expand into 6 gate pressure then dual robo collosus. He then takes a safe third and disallows me to multi-prong attack with roaches/lings. Then throws down some stargates, pump voids and maxs while getting neccesary ups (attack, defense and blink), he is more or less unkillable and forces me to engage an uber-death ball which i must trade a huge roach army while sniping collosus/voids then remax immediately on roaches and ensure I don't lose my exterior mining bases which are key once I spend my resource surplus. If I beat his army, its gg and pumping hive units ensures. However, any mistake while doing this I face death. I feel that there are very few windows to hit the protoss without mutas (which are difficult to justify considering the strength of 2 base gate way pushes). While there are many windows where he can hit me and do massive damage if I deviate from a roach/corrupter army.
Perhaps their are other approaches I need to investigate, put personally, this is the most solid/safe way to play I have found. Hopefully I can find an answer somewhere, but I'm struggling.
I think Zerg should be frustrated with the state of the game. We feel unable to execute pressure while remaining in control of a strong economy and a safe fall back if we don't succeed in doing damage. All the while, we walk a very thin line in engagements where we are almost guaranteed to lose fights or key positions if we allow the P or T to gain a foot hold near us: Think seige tanks guarded with minimal flanking positions while rines can continually poke at us (Shakuras rock guarded pathway between bases is a good example) or a Protoss ball that makes its way into an enclosed space near an expansion where forcefields gain maximum effectiveness. Being a reactive race, we usually need time to pump a final round of units when we see a push, so with short rush distances, it is really difficult to stall an opponents movement towards an advantages position without huge sacrifices.
Im sorry all I heard was blah blah blah I don't know how to play. You think starcraft was so easily figured out? For fucks sake people it took about 8 years before 3hatch muta->5 hatch hydra even came about and then another ~1.5 years before Protoss finally have a reasonable counter to it(corsair/zealot midgame push into storm/corsair/archons/reaver/zealot/goon). Fucking you shouldn't feel frustrated and instead you should be finding protoss practice partners and ironing out your builds/strategies. So fucking sick of this god damn whine bull shit. Seriously? I was simply outlining a few reasons why Zerg players have felt hard done by. I wasn't intending to whine, just placing my perspective as a Zerg player on why there is a trend of QQ from my race. Time spent QQing would be better spent practicing. But anyways, you're acting like an idiot and presented nothing of interest other than whine yourself. Manner up. Lol? Every race has its problems, there is nothing to "feel hard done by". Don't like it, switch races.
The problem I am referring to (lack of ability to be effectively aggressive) is one which is plagued many Zerg players and is the source of many feelings of unbalance/unfairness in race design. But if nothing changes, I will just stomach it and continue to improve under the circumstances.
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this is actually quiet interesting blog and i feel that a lot of people are sort of afraid of speaking out their personal pov because they understand the flack they will catch from 'the weakest race'
But this is obviously what happens to people, different experiences and different issues they are facing. Obviously everyone always tries to get better and while it might be easier to rake up wins as P or T it's equally hard to get better no matter what race you play.
The real problem most zergs are facing are not imbalances, but the lack of inspiration, the lack of heroes, the lack of victorious zergs that can give you motivation. It's like being a person of color in the early years of post segregated america. While you seem to have all the rights you need to be great on paper there is still a lack of observable success, and the same kind of hopeless feeling of being cornered.
I overdramatize but i hope you get the point.
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 26 2011 17:15 Dali. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 16:57 Trowabarton756 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 26 2011 16:35 Dali. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 16:21 Trowabarton756 wrote:On January 26 2011 15:43 Dali. wrote:
My issue with PvZ comes in the form of this build. My opponent opens 3 gate expand into 6 gate pressure then dual robo collosus. He then takes a safe third and disallows me to multi-prong attack with roaches/lings. Then throws down some stargates, pump voids and maxs while getting neccesary ups (attack, defense and blink), he is more or less unkillable and forces me to engage an uber-death ball which i must trade a huge roach army while sniping collosus/voids then remax immediately on roaches and ensure I don't lose my exterior mining bases which are key once I spend my resource surplus. If I beat his army, its gg and pumping hive units ensures. However, any mistake while doing this I face death. I feel that there are very few windows to hit the protoss without mutas (which are difficult to justify considering the strength of 2 base gate way pushes). While there are many windows where he can hit me and do massive damage if I deviate from a roach/corrupter army.
Perhaps their are other approaches I need to investigate, put personally, this is the most solid/safe way to play I have found. Hopefully I can find an answer somewhere, but I'm struggling.
I think Zerg should be frustrated with the state of the game. We feel unable to execute pressure while remaining in control of a strong economy and a safe fall back if we don't succeed in doing damage. All the while, we walk a very thin line in engagements where we are almost guaranteed to lose fights or key positions if we allow the P or T to gain a foot hold near us: Think seige tanks guarded with minimal flanking positions while rines can continually poke at us (Shakuras rock guarded pathway between bases is a good example) or a Protoss ball that makes its way into an enclosed space near an expansion where forcefields gain maximum effectiveness. Being a reactive race, we usually need time to pump a final round of units when we see a push, so with short rush distances, it is really difficult to stall an opponents movement towards an advantages position without huge sacrifices.
Im sorry all I heard was blah blah blah I don't know how to play. You think starcraft was so easily figured out? For fucks sake people it took about 8 years before 3hatch muta->5 hatch hydra even came about and then another ~1.5 years before Protoss finally have a reasonable counter to it(corsair/zealot midgame push into storm/corsair/archons/reaver/zealot/goon). Fucking you shouldn't feel frustrated and instead you should be finding protoss practice partners and ironing out your builds/strategies. So fucking sick of this god damn whine bull shit. Seriously? I was simply outlining a few reasons why Zerg players have felt hard done by. I wasn't intending to whine, just placing my perspective as a Zerg player on why there is a trend of QQ from my race. Time spent QQing would be better spent practicing. But anyways, you're acting like an idiot and presented nothing of interest other than whine yourself. Manner up. Lol? Every race has its problems, there is nothing to "feel hard done by". Don't like it, switch races. The problem I am referring to (lack of ability to be effectively aggressive) is one which is plagued many Zerg players and is the source of many feelings of unbalance/unfairness in race design. But if nothing changes, I will just stomach it and continue to improve under the circumstances.
...
don't zergs have like 6/7pool and 7rr? That's pretty aggressive, see the "effective" part is what you make of it. There shouldn't be 1 build that you can just let the AI "effectively" be aggressive, it should rely on the player's micro/macro/timing abilities, you're essentially asking for free wins.
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What pisses me off are people blaming imbalance when they made stupid fucking decisions. You really shouldn't run your whole army straight into a siege tank line with PF's. I'm tired of explaining to these bitchy players why their 12 ultras died to 3/3 tanks on cliffs. It's not imbalance, you just don't know how to play.
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On January 26 2011 17:24 zerglingsfolife wrote:
What pisses me off are people blaming imbalance when they made stupid fucking decisions. You really shouldn't run your whole army straight into a siege tank line with PF's. I'm tired of explaining to these bitchy players why their 12 ultras died to 3/3 tanks on cliffs. It's not imbalance, you just don't know how to play.
This pretty much sums up a lot of the TvZ whinning I see ^^. How many people don't understand mech =\. I personally feel lucky as an outsider looking in considering i played SC for 10+ years.
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I think the majority of the complainers are current generation console gamers and WoW players. I never heard such bitching back in the day. It was always "I got owned/I have trouble with this, how do I deal with it."
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On January 26 2011 17:22 Sfydjklm wrote:
this is actually quiet interesting blog and i feel that a lot of people are sort of afraid of speaking out their personal pov because they understand the flack they will catch from 'the weakest race'
But this is obviously what happens to people, different experiences and different issues they are facing. Obviously everyone always tries to get better and while it might be easier to rake up wins as P or T it's equally hard to get better no matter what race you play.
The real problem most zergs are facing are not imbalances, but the lack of inspiration, the lack of heroes, the lack of victorious zergs that can give you motivation. It's like being a person of color in the early years of post segregated america. While you seem to have all the rights you need to be great on paper there is still a lack of observable success, and the same kind of hopeless feeling of being cornered.
I overdramatize but i hope you get the point.
I dunno if this is really an "eagles soaring above giving me hope" scenario. It really is just a case of frustration that has been echoed through the many ranks of zerg players: We simply have to do a lot more to win. Now this isn't a shot at the efforts of our Terrans or Protoss opponents, rather that their race provides a number of luxuries that ours don't. I don't think I need to outline them, they're well versed. With the current meta-game, we feel pigeonholed into a very restrictive and volatile early game followed by a mid-game with very similar restrictions. Coupled with this, we often times feel that we are unable to apply pressure to the Terran or Protoss especially through the once terrifying mutalisk.
I don't feel down on the zerg race and will never switch, but I think the nature of QQ comes from experiences of bad beats which often lack reasonable explanation.
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We feel unable to execute pressure while remaining in control of a strong economy and a safe fall back if we don't succeed in doing damage.
Really? You guys have the best unit at pressuring, mutas. I can't leaving my base cause I'm afriad you'll come fuck it up. That lets you drone up. Even if I got turrets in my mineral line, you could pick shit off, hit my production buildings, pick off depos that I build for spotting at the edge of my base.
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On January 26 2011 17:23 Trowabarton756 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 26 2011 17:15 Dali. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 16:57 Trowabarton756 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 26 2011 16:35 Dali. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 16:21 Trowabarton756 wrote:On January 26 2011 15:43 Dali. wrote:
My issue with PvZ comes in the form of this build. My opponent opens 3 gate expand into 6 gate pressure then dual robo collosus. He then takes a safe third and disallows me to multi-prong attack with roaches/lings. Then throws down some stargates, pump voids and maxs while getting neccesary ups (attack, defense and blink), he is more or less unkillable and forces me to engage an uber-death ball which i must trade a huge roach army while sniping collosus/voids then remax immediately on roaches and ensure I don't lose my exterior mining bases which are key once I spend my resource surplus. If I beat his army, its gg and pumping hive units ensures. However, any mistake while doing this I face death. I feel that there are very few windows to hit the protoss without mutas (which are difficult to justify considering the strength of 2 base gate way pushes). While there are many windows where he can hit me and do massive damage if I deviate from a roach/corrupter army.
Perhaps their are other approaches I need to investigate, put personally, this is the most solid/safe way to play I have found. Hopefully I can find an answer somewhere, but I'm struggling.
I think Zerg should be frustrated with the state of the game. We feel unable to execute pressure while remaining in control of a strong economy and a safe fall back if we don't succeed in doing damage. All the while, we walk a very thin line in engagements where we are almost guaranteed to lose fights or key positions if we allow the P or T to gain a foot hold near us: Think seige tanks guarded with minimal flanking positions while rines can continually poke at us (Shakuras rock guarded pathway between bases is a good example) or a Protoss ball that makes its way into an enclosed space near an expansion where forcefields gain maximum effectiveness. Being a reactive race, we usually need time to pump a final round of units when we see a push, so with short rush distances, it is really difficult to stall an opponents movement towards an advantages position without huge sacrifices.
Im sorry all I heard was blah blah blah I don't know how to play. You think starcraft was so easily figured out? For fucks sake people it took about 8 years before 3hatch muta->5 hatch hydra even came about and then another ~1.5 years before Protoss finally have a reasonable counter to it(corsair/zealot midgame push into storm/corsair/archons/reaver/zealot/goon). Fucking you shouldn't feel frustrated and instead you should be finding protoss practice partners and ironing out your builds/strategies. So fucking sick of this god damn whine bull shit. Seriously? I was simply outlining a few reasons why Zerg players have felt hard done by. I wasn't intending to whine, just placing my perspective as a Zerg player on why there is a trend of QQ from my race. Time spent QQing would be better spent practicing. But anyways, you're acting like an idiot and presented nothing of interest other than whine yourself. Manner up. Lol? Every race has its problems, there is nothing to "feel hard done by". Don't like it, switch races. The problem I am referring to (lack of ability to be effectively aggressive) is one which is plagued many Zerg players and is the source of many feelings of unbalance/unfairness in race design. But if nothing changes, I will just stomach it and continue to improve under the circumstances. ... don't zergs have like 6/7pool and 7rr? That's pretty aggressive, see the "effective" part is what you make of it. There shouldn't be 1 build that you can just let the AI "effectively" be aggressive, it should rely on the player's micro/macro/timing abilities, you're essentially asking for free wins.
Are you honestly suggesting that 6/7pool and 7rr are reasonable aggressive openings? I am talking about safe aggression, see: 2 rax, see non-allin 4 gates, banshee openings, hellion openings, phoenix openings. These are all things that allow a Terran and Protoss safe "in-zerg's-face" openings while maintaining a level of reasonable safety and macro follow up.
These openings work well especially because they can be easily hidden with correct patrolling and know the standard timings for overlord float bys. However a roach rush is very transparent on any map without a back door nat. It seems pretty evident that they are not verty effective considering how infrequently they have been seen in any state of professional play.
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 26 2011 17:52 Dali. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 17:23 Trowabarton756 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 26 2011 17:15 Dali. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 16:57 Trowabarton756 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 26 2011 16:35 Dali. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 16:21 Trowabarton756 wrote:On January 26 2011 15:43 Dali. wrote:
My issue with PvZ comes in the form of this build. My opponent opens 3 gate expand into 6 gate pressure then dual robo collosus. He then takes a safe third and disallows me to multi-prong attack with roaches/lings. Then throws down some stargates, pump voids and maxs while getting neccesary ups (attack, defense and blink), he is more or less unkillable and forces me to engage an uber-death ball which i must trade a huge roach army while sniping collosus/voids then remax immediately on roaches and ensure I don't lose my exterior mining bases which are key once I spend my resource surplus. If I beat his army, its gg and pumping hive units ensures. However, any mistake while doing this I face death. I feel that there are very few windows to hit the protoss without mutas (which are difficult to justify considering the strength of 2 base gate way pushes). While there are many windows where he can hit me and do massive damage if I deviate from a roach/corrupter army.
Perhaps their are other approaches I need to investigate, put personally, this is the most solid/safe way to play I have found. Hopefully I can find an answer somewhere, but I'm struggling.
I think Zerg should be frustrated with the state of the game. We feel unable to execute pressure while remaining in control of a strong economy and a safe fall back if we don't succeed in doing damage. All the while, we walk a very thin line in engagements where we are almost guaranteed to lose fights or key positions if we allow the P or T to gain a foot hold near us: Think seige tanks guarded with minimal flanking positions while rines can continually poke at us (Shakuras rock guarded pathway between bases is a good example) or a Protoss ball that makes its way into an enclosed space near an expansion where forcefields gain maximum effectiveness. Being a reactive race, we usually need time to pump a final round of units when we see a push, so with short rush distances, it is really difficult to stall an opponents movement towards an advantages position without huge sacrifices.
Im sorry all I heard was blah blah blah I don't know how to play. You think starcraft was so easily figured out? For fucks sake people it took about 8 years before 3hatch muta->5 hatch hydra even came about and then another ~1.5 years before Protoss finally have a reasonable counter to it(corsair/zealot midgame push into storm/corsair/archons/reaver/zealot/goon). Fucking you shouldn't feel frustrated and instead you should be finding protoss practice partners and ironing out your builds/strategies. So fucking sick of this god damn whine bull shit. Seriously? I was simply outlining a few reasons why Zerg players have felt hard done by. I wasn't intending to whine, just placing my perspective as a Zerg player on why there is a trend of QQ from my race. Time spent QQing would be better spent practicing. But anyways, you're acting like an idiot and presented nothing of interest other than whine yourself. Manner up. Lol? Every race has its problems, there is nothing to "feel hard done by". Don't like it, switch races. The problem I am referring to (lack of ability to be effectively aggressive) is one which is plagued many Zerg players and is the source of many feelings of unbalance/unfairness in race design. But if nothing changes, I will just stomach it and continue to improve under the circumstances. ... don't zergs have like 6/7pool and 7rr? That's pretty aggressive, see the "effective" part is what you make of it. There shouldn't be 1 build that you can just let the AI "effectively" be aggressive, it should rely on the player's micro/macro/timing abilities, you're essentially asking for free wins. Are you honestly suggesting that 6/7pool and 7rr are reasonable aggressive openings? I am talking about safe aggression, see: 2 rax, see non-allin 4 gates, banshee openings, hellion openings, phoenix openings. These are all things that allow a Terran and Protoss safe "in-zerg's-face" openings while maintaining a level of reasonable safety and macro follow up. These openings work well especially because they can be easily hidden with correct patrolling and know the standard timings for overlord float bys. However a roach rush is very transparent on any map without a back door nat. It seems pretty evident that they are not verty effective considering how infrequently they have been seen in any state of professional play.
there is no such thing as safe aggression, 4-gate albeit "economical" is still 4-gates...on 1 base, meaning you have very little opportunity to tech or expand unless you skip units...
as far as 2-rax clearly Z is underpowered considering 90% of terrans in the last GSL have scv/marine all-in'd like crazy with the reasoning being that zerg is unstoppable late-game. you either get a defensive build or a offensive build, you never get both.
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On January 26 2011 17:46 chaoser wrote:Show nested quote +We feel unable to execute pressure while remaining in control of a strong economy and a safe fall back if we don't succeed in doing damage. Really? You guys have the best unit at pressuring, mutas. I can't leaving my base cause I'm afriad you'll come fuck it up. That lets you drone up. Even if I got turrets in my mineral line, you could pick shit off, hit my production buildings, pick off depos that I build for spotting at the edge of my base.
This is true vs terran to a certain extent. Turrets just aren't cost effective to pick off until a certain number of mutas is reached. However by this point Thors are commonly placed in or around mineral lines, effective making cost effective "sniping" (stacked balled) unthinkable. Usually when a terran pushes out, I will take a very brief swipe at their base, but usually I have to arrange my forces (banes, surrounds, flanks, hotkeys etc) as if I mess up my defense I will be very dead. As for mutas in ZvP, they're getting rare. 6 gate timings pack too much punch and the muta ball + lings is not enough to take it on. This coupled with phoenix buff makes Mutas a gamble. The best usage I've seen was Zenios super fast spire vs cannon expand. But that was different to the situation that many Zergs face.
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United States996 Posts
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On January 26 2011 17:59 Trowabarton756 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 26 2011 17:52 Dali. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 17:23 Trowabarton756 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 26 2011 17:15 Dali. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 16:57 Trowabarton756 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 26 2011 16:35 Dali. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 16:21 Trowabarton756 wrote:On January 26 2011 15:43 Dali. wrote:
My issue with PvZ comes in the form of this build. My opponent opens 3 gate expand into 6 gate pressure then dual robo collosus. He then takes a safe third and disallows me to multi-prong attack with roaches/lings. Then throws down some stargates, pump voids and maxs while getting neccesary ups (attack, defense and blink), he is more or less unkillable and forces me to engage an uber-death ball which i must trade a huge roach army while sniping collosus/voids then remax immediately on roaches and ensure I don't lose my exterior mining bases which are key once I spend my resource surplus. If I beat his army, its gg and pumping hive units ensures. However, any mistake while doing this I face death. I feel that there are very few windows to hit the protoss without mutas (which are difficult to justify considering the strength of 2 base gate way pushes). While there are many windows where he can hit me and do massive damage if I deviate from a roach/corrupter army.
Perhaps their are other approaches I need to investigate, put personally, this is the most solid/safe way to play I have found. Hopefully I can find an answer somewhere, but I'm struggling.
I think Zerg should be frustrated with the state of the game. We feel unable to execute pressure while remaining in control of a strong economy and a safe fall back if we don't succeed in doing damage. All the while, we walk a very thin line in engagements where we are almost guaranteed to lose fights or key positions if we allow the P or T to gain a foot hold near us: Think seige tanks guarded with minimal flanking positions while rines can continually poke at us (Shakuras rock guarded pathway between bases is a good example) or a Protoss ball that makes its way into an enclosed space near an expansion where forcefields gain maximum effectiveness. Being a reactive race, we usually need time to pump a final round of units when we see a push, so with short rush distances, it is really difficult to stall an opponents movement towards an advantages position without huge sacrifices.
Im sorry all I heard was blah blah blah I don't know how to play. You think starcraft was so easily figured out? For fucks sake people it took about 8 years before 3hatch muta->5 hatch hydra even came about and then another ~1.5 years before Protoss finally have a reasonable counter to it(corsair/zealot midgame push into storm/corsair/archons/reaver/zealot/goon). Fucking you shouldn't feel frustrated and instead you should be finding protoss practice partners and ironing out your builds/strategies. So fucking sick of this god damn whine bull shit. Seriously? I was simply outlining a few reasons why Zerg players have felt hard done by. I wasn't intending to whine, just placing my perspective as a Zerg player on why there is a trend of QQ from my race. Time spent QQing would be better spent practicing. But anyways, you're acting like an idiot and presented nothing of interest other than whine yourself. Manner up. Lol? Every race has its problems, there is nothing to "feel hard done by". Don't like it, switch races. The problem I am referring to (lack of ability to be effectively aggressive) is one which is plagued many Zerg players and is the source of many feelings of unbalance/unfairness in race design. But if nothing changes, I will just stomach it and continue to improve under the circumstances. ... don't zergs have like 6/7pool and 7rr? That's pretty aggressive, see the "effective" part is what you make of it. There shouldn't be 1 build that you can just let the AI "effectively" be aggressive, it should rely on the player's micro/macro/timing abilities, you're essentially asking for free wins. Are you honestly suggesting that 6/7pool and 7rr are reasonable aggressive openings? I am talking about safe aggression, see: 2 rax, see non-allin 4 gates, banshee openings, hellion openings, phoenix openings. These are all things that allow a Terran and Protoss safe "in-zerg's-face" openings while maintaining a level of reasonable safety and macro follow up. These openings work well especially because they can be easily hidden with correct patrolling and know the standard timings for overlord float bys. However a roach rush is very transparent on any map without a back door nat. It seems pretty evident that they are not verty effective considering how infrequently they have been seen in any state of professional play. there is no such thing as safe aggression, 4-gate albeit "economical" is still 4-gates...on 1 base, meaning you have very little opportunity to tech or expand unless you skip units... as far as 2-rax clearly Z is underpowered considering 90% of terrans in the last GSL have scv/marine all-in'd like crazy with the reasoning being that zerg is unstoppable late-game. you either get a defensive build or a offensive build, you never get both.
This is clearly untrue. The investment that a zerg must make in the early game, that of an expansion, simply means that aggression, especially 2 rax, is a reasonable safe way to open as there is no aggressive follow up which isn't effectively an all in, at least not aggression with any immediacy, earliest effective aggression exists in the Kyrix style. I will concede that 4 gate is most often an all in, but the others I mentioned were usually safe, assuming enough attention is paid to the essential units that control the Zerg in such a way to allow safe economic follow up.
I would argue that Protoss late game is actually far stronger and that was what I was arguing before. That the Zerg has a very difficult time stopping that late game progression. As for Terran late game, I do not believe it has been sufficiently explored as most Terrans have elected to play some form of 1 base or 2 base all ins in ZvT. Oh well, we shall see what the future brings.
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Having played a lot of both races, I can safely say that Toss has infinitely better scouting capabilities than Zerg do. I never found myself struggling to know what my opponent was doing while playing Protoss, but it's a common theme in Zerg games.
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On January 26 2011 18:36 Ezekyle wrote:
Having played a lot of both races, I can safely say that Toss has infinitely better scouting capabilities than Zerg do. I never found myself struggling to know what my opponent was doing while playing Protoss, but it's a common theme in Zerg games.
Having played a lot of both races, you can safely say that ALL ZERG AND PROTOSS PLAYERS ACROSS ALL LEVELS EXPERIENCE THE SAME KIND OF GAMES YOU DO?
God where does this arrogance come from? It's so ridiculous.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
The race which has the most reactive tendencies will invariably be the race that being moan about playing the most. It was like this in BW as well (Protoss against Zerg, Zerg against Terran, Terran against Protoss) and is still true in SC2 (Zerg against Terran, Zerg against Protoss, Protoss against Terran). That's all there is to it imo.
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Zergs whine so much because the most vocal people out there are saying how zerg is UP and every other race is OP to the max.
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On January 26 2011 19:22 FlashIsHigh wrote:
Zergs whine so much because the most vocal people out there are saying how zerg is UP and every other race is OP to the max.
1. You say zerg whiners are vocal, but maybe they are the most vocal because their race needs emergency fixing?
2. Maybe you hear more about Zerg whining because there are more players who also feel that Zerg needs fixing
3. No one said Protoss is OP, community still thinks Terran is OP
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On January 26 2011 19:16 Plexa wrote:
The race which has the most reactive tendencies will invariably be the race that being moan about playing the most. It was like this in BW as well (Protoss against Zerg, Zerg against Terran, Terran against Protoss) and is still true in SC2 (Zerg against Terran, Zerg against Protoss, Protoss against Terran). That's all there is to it imo.
yeah well at least there was a triangle of imbalance in bw >_>;; whenever zergies get owned by terran we can at least go pick on protosses to make ourselves feel better. Can't say the same for this game lol
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On January 26 2011 17:22 Sfydjklm wrote:
The real problem most zergs are facing are not imbalances, but the lack of inspiration, the lack of heroes, the lack of victorious zergs that can give you motivation. It's like being a person of color in the early years of post segregated america. While you seem to have all the rights you need to be great on paper there is still a lack of observable success, and the same kind of hopeless feeling of being cornered.
.
What?
NesTea is one of the greatest players in the world right now, and won GSL2.
FruitDealer was an absolute hero for zerg, and won GSL1. IdrA is arguably the most famous (and, IMO, the best) foreign SC2 player.
I know Zergs aren't doing well in other tournaments besides the GSL, but thats not the point here. Think about how inspired zergs were when FruitDealer crushed everyone in GSL1.
Zerg have the MOST heroes and inspiration out of any race. I really don't see how you think they're lacking. =/
How could any zerg not be inspired by FruitDealer's tribute video? Protoss don't have any videos like that. *whine*
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On January 26 2011 19:41 5unrise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 19:16 Plexa wrote:
The race which has the most reactive tendencies will invariably be the race that being moan about playing the most. It was like this in BW as well (Protoss against Zerg, Zerg against Terran, Terran against Protoss) and is still true in SC2 (Zerg against Terran, Zerg against Protoss, Protoss against Terran). That's all there is to it imo. yeah well at least there was a triangle of imbalance in bw >_>;; whenever zergies get owned by terran we can at least go pick on protosses to make ourselves feel better. Can't say the same for this game lol
I am amazed how people are able to twist every post into imbalance / balance talk. He was talking about races moaning because they are the reactive race in the match up which has pretty much nothing to do with balance. Imo it's getting quite ridiculous that nearly every post is filled with imbalance '/ balance talk and I am getting quite sick of it.
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On January 26 2011 20:40 Moonloop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 17:22 Sfydjklm wrote:
The real problem most zergs are facing are not imbalances, but the lack of inspiration, the lack of heroes, the lack of victorious zergs that can give you motivation. It's like being a person of color in the early years of post segregated america. While you seem to have all the rights you need to be great on paper there is still a lack of observable success, and the same kind of hopeless feeling of being cornered.
. What? NesTea is one of the greatest players in the world right now, and won GSL2. FruitDealer was an absolute hero for zerg, and won GSL1. IdrA is arguably the most famous (and, IMO, the best) foreign SC2 player. I know Zergs aren't doing well in other tournaments besides the GSL, but thats not the point here. Think about how inspired zergs were when FruitDealer crushed everyone in GSL1. Zerg have the MOST heroes and inspiration out of any race. I really don't see how you think they're lacking. =/ How could any zerg not be inspired by FruitDealer's tribute video? Protoss don't have any videos like that. *whine*
Yes but that was in season 2 of GSL.
Forever ago.
Besides at some point you realize you can never be as good as Nestea and all you want is the knowledge that it's a fair game and your race is capable of winning at any bracket of skill.
A conviction that zerg's are deprived of.
Also never really was impressed by FD's GSL 1 victory. His opponents in the last rounds played like shit. I was more impressed by his post GSL 1 play both wins and losses alike he played phenomenal.
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Why not play a balanced game then?
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On January 26 2011 20:56 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 20:40 Moonloop wrote:On January 26 2011 17:22 Sfydjklm wrote:
The real problem most zergs are facing are not imbalances, but the lack of inspiration, the lack of heroes, the lack of victorious zergs that can give you motivation. It's like being a person of color in the early years of post segregated america. While you seem to have all the rights you need to be great on paper there is still a lack of observable success, and the same kind of hopeless feeling of being cornered.
. What? NesTea is one of the greatest players in the world right now, and won GSL2. FruitDealer was an absolute hero for zerg, and won GSL1. IdrA is arguably the most famous (and, IMO, the best) foreign SC2 player. I know Zergs aren't doing well in other tournaments besides the GSL, but thats not the point here. Think about how inspired zergs were when FruitDealer crushed everyone in GSL1. Zerg have the MOST heroes and inspiration out of any race. I really don't see how you think they're lacking. =/ How could any zerg not be inspired by FruitDealer's tribute video? Protoss don't have any videos like that. *whine* Yes but that was in season 2 of GSL. Forever ago. Besides at some point you realize you can never be as good as Nestea and all you want is the knowledge that it's a fair game and your race is capable of winning at any bracket of skill. A conviction that zerg's are deprived of. Also never really was impressed by FD's GSL 1 victory. His opponents in the last rounds played like shit. I was more impressed by his post GSL 1 play both wins and losses alike he played phenomenal.
That's your opinion though - you also said 'most zergs' in your original post. I would argue that 'most zergs' were inspired by FruitDealer's win. I know Rainbow played terribly, but still - FruitDealer was just better than all his opponents, and won the most prestigious SC2 tournament at a time when zergs were weakest.
Maybe you're not personally inspired by the people I named, but I think many players are. I can see where you're coming from, and I agree that Zerg is weak at the moment, but I stand by my opinion that of all three races, Zerg have the most heroes.
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A good protoss is virtually impossible to attack at any early/mid stage not to mention how hard it is to scout until you have overseers or ovie speed, up to which time P can keep any rush or tech they want secret. Every drone made at this point is a risk. In fact every drone past 19 drones is a risk of death to any random timing.
The reason zergs are sad is because we play in fear and we are easily beat by lower skilled players for the longest time until we learn a books worth of knowledge compared to a pamphlet for protoss.
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On January 26 2011 21:28 Adeeler wrote:
A good protoss is virtually impossible to attack at any early/mid stage not to mention how hard it is to scout until you have overseers or ovie speed, up to which time P can keep any rush or tech they want secret. Every drone made at this point is a risk. In fact every drone past 19 drones is a risk of death to any random timing.
The reason zergs are sad is because we play in fear and we are easily beat by lower skilled players for the longest time until we learn a books worth of knowledge compared to a pamphlet for protoss.
holy shit this post is bad
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On January 26 2011 21:24 Moonloop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 20:56 Sfydjklm wrote:On January 26 2011 20:40 Moonloop wrote:On January 26 2011 17:22 Sfydjklm wrote:
The real problem most zergs are facing are not imbalances, but the lack of inspiration, the lack of heroes, the lack of victorious zergs that can give you motivation. It's like being a person of color in the early years of post segregated america. While you seem to have all the rights you need to be great on paper there is still a lack of observable success, and the same kind of hopeless feeling of being cornered.
. What? NesTea is one of the greatest players in the world right now, and won GSL2. FruitDealer was an absolute hero for zerg, and won GSL1. IdrA is arguably the most famous (and, IMO, the best) foreign SC2 player. I know Zergs aren't doing well in other tournaments besides the GSL, but thats not the point here. Think about how inspired zergs were when FruitDealer crushed everyone in GSL1. Zerg have the MOST heroes and inspiration out of any race. I really don't see how you think they're lacking. =/ How could any zerg not be inspired by FruitDealer's tribute video? Protoss don't have any videos like that. *whine* Yes but that was in season 2 of GSL. Forever ago. Besides at some point you realize you can never be as good as Nestea and all you want is the knowledge that it's a fair game and your race is capable of winning at any bracket of skill. A conviction that zerg's are deprived of. Also never really was impressed by FD's GSL 1 victory. His opponents in the last rounds played like shit. I was more impressed by his post GSL 1 play both wins and losses alike he played phenomenal. That's your opinion though - you also said 'most zergs' in your original post. I would argue that 'most zergs' were inspired by FruitDealer's win. I know Rainbow played terribly, but still - FruitDealer was just better than all his opponents, and won the most prestigious SC2 tournament at a time when zergs were weakest. Maybe you're not personally inspired by the people I named, but I think many players are. I can see where you're coming from, and I agree that Zerg is weak at the moment, but I stand by my opinion that of all three races, Zerg have the most heroes.
I'm not arguing with what you said. I am saying that GSL 2 was forever ago and bottom line is GSL S1 and 2 are now irrelevant. It just the nature of time and it's pointless to argue.
And tbh WhiteRa is a bigger hero then pretty much anyone else in esports
Man if Dimaga was winning i think there would be a lot less complaining going on. Being a hero is not just about winning its about the attitude too. A few weeks ago BratOk said that Dimaga was "depressed" about the current zerg situation and hence not performing well. I mean i dunno how liberal his use of the word was in that case but thinking about how severe something has to be to make someone as ridiculously positive as Dimaga depressed makes me depressed
I
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sry wrong thread
(shoulda been pm)
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My buddy at work who plays toss also whines hardcore about zerg.
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On January 26 2011 19:16 Plexa wrote:
The race which has the most reactive tendencies will invariably be the race that being moan about playing the most. It was like this in BW as well (Protoss against Zerg, Zerg against Terran, Terran against Protoss) and is still true in SC2 (Zerg against Terran, Zerg against Protoss, Protoss against Terran). That's all there is to it imo.
Hahaha so true. I'm just glad Protoss isn't in the "Imba" spotlight as it was in BW.
People should love it or leave it imo. If you are not enjoying the game because your race is too hard and you lose too much, CHANGE your fucking race. As long as you are playing a video game as just a game and not as a job, if you're not enjoying the game, chances are you're playing it wrong (Edit: or it may not be the game for you; go play some farmville).
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On January 26 2011 19:16 Plexa wrote:
The race which has the most reactive tendencies will invariably be the race that being moan about playing the most. It was like this in BW as well (Protoss against Zerg, Zerg against Terran, Terran against Protoss) and is still true in SC2 (Zerg against Terran, Zerg against Protoss, Protoss against Terran). That's all there is to it imo.
This guy speaks truth. In case those of you who don't understand or totally missed it, let me elaborate.
Reactive tendencies are basically, in a non-mirror match-up, the race that has to play reactively (the races survival or tech choices depend on scouting information). The race that adjusts their build orders/defense to a certain races opener is playing reactively. And if this adjustment is incorrect (your read on the opponent) then there is a very very very high chance the reactive player loses.
For example, back in BW (where all the rage and complaining happens originates in each matchup):
ZvT = Zerg is most reactive (I'm NOT saying that Terran doesn't have to be reactive but Plexa says 'MOST' reactive). Terran has a ton a openers where a zerg has to react to. Bunker rushes, 1rax CC, 14CC, 2port Wraith, a bunch of 3-4rax timings, mech play, vulture harass, etc.
TvP = Terran is most reactive. Protoss has a bunch of openers including(not too sure, my knowledge only extends to watching, as I played Zerg in both BW and Sc2): DTs, Dragoon pressure, Storm drops, Shuttle/Reaver, 14 Nexus, proxy gateways, Arbiter recalls, etc. It's up to the Terran to play defensive and deflect these options.
PvZ = Protoss is most reactive. Lurker slow drops, Hydra busts, 5 hatch hydra into Muta templar snipe, Zergling run-bys, etc.
Back in BW, you have this trifecta of Zerg, Terran and Protoss tears.
Now in SC2, I'm not sure about the Protoss/Terran matchup, as all I hear most are imba storms/imba marines/marauder timing pushes, but in the Zerg Matchups, Zerg is reactive in both; therefore, soooo many Zerg tears everywhere.
ZvP = Zerg is most reactive. This is solely due to one single reason I think. It's because of the easy of walling in for the protoss. Walling in + Warp Ins basically means Zerg MUST play reactive as protoss can 4gate, blink stalker timing on nat, 3gate expand, proxy gates, etc.
ZvT = Zerg is most reactive again. I think this matchup is quite similar to BW so not going to comment much on it (in the sense of stylistics). 2port banshee, blue flame hellion drop, makarax, 2rax, 1rax expo, stim timing attack, marauder/hellion, scv/marine allin, etc.
That is the reason why Zergs are crying outta control. If you're playing protoss and you're losing a lot to zerg for some reason, you should definitely focus on denying the Zerg information. If you're good at being deceptive, hiding information and confusing the Zerg, you'll have much higher chance of success. If you're one dimensional, doing the same build, and not making a real effort to deny information from the zerg, the zerg will just react to it properly and you'll be in a world of pain against a zerg who is better than you. If you denied information from the Zerg and you still end up losing then most likely the zerg just blindly countered you and, more often than not, you should come out ahead or win the game.
Also, I believe this is the reason why beginners or players new to SC are having such a hard time playing Zerg at the lower levels. Playing reactively requires so much experience and game sense that it is infuriating for a new Zerg to lose to a 4gate which takes plenty practice to see and correctly respond to. This is quite the opposite where a protoss can just practice the 4gate and still end up winning a large number of games.
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On January 26 2011 21:47 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 21:24 Moonloop wrote:On January 26 2011 20:56 Sfydjklm wrote:On January 26 2011 20:40 Moonloop wrote:On January 26 2011 17:22 Sfydjklm wrote:
The real problem most zergs are facing are not imbalances, but the lack of inspiration, the lack of heroes, the lack of victorious zergs that can give you motivation. It's like being a person of color in the early years of post segregated america. While you seem to have all the rights you need to be great on paper there is still a lack of observable success, and the same kind of hopeless feeling of being cornered.
. What? NesTea is one of the greatest players in the world right now, and won GSL2. FruitDealer was an absolute hero for zerg, and won GSL1. IdrA is arguably the most famous (and, IMO, the best) foreign SC2 player. I know Zergs aren't doing well in other tournaments besides the GSL, but thats not the point here. Think about how inspired zergs were when FruitDealer crushed everyone in GSL1. Zerg have the MOST heroes and inspiration out of any race. I really don't see how you think they're lacking. =/ How could any zerg not be inspired by FruitDealer's tribute video? Protoss don't have any videos like that. *whine* Yes but that was in season 2 of GSL. Forever ago. Besides at some point you realize you can never be as good as Nestea and all you want is the knowledge that it's a fair game and your race is capable of winning at any bracket of skill. A conviction that zerg's are deprived of. Also never really was impressed by FD's GSL 1 victory. His opponents in the last rounds played like shit. I was more impressed by his post GSL 1 play both wins and losses alike he played phenomenal. That's your opinion though - you also said 'most zergs' in your original post. I would argue that 'most zergs' were inspired by FruitDealer's win. I know Rainbow played terribly, but still - FruitDealer was just better than all his opponents, and won the most prestigious SC2 tournament at a time when zergs were weakest. Maybe you're not personally inspired by the people I named, but I think many players are. I can see where you're coming from, and I agree that Zerg is weak at the moment, but I stand by my opinion that of all three races, Zerg have the most heroes. I'm not arguing with what you said. I am saying that GSL 2 was forever ago and bottom line is GSL S1 and 2 are now irrelevant. It just the nature of time and it's pointless to argue. And tbh WhiteRa is a bigger hero then pretty much anyone else in esports Man if Dimaga was winning i think there would be a lot less complaining going on. Being a hero is not just about winning its about the attitude too. A few weeks ago BratOk said that Dimaga was "depressed" about the current zerg situation and hence not performing well. I mean i dunno how liberal his use of the word was in that case but thinking about how severe something has to be to make someone as ridiculously positive as Dimaga depressed makes me depressed I
lol
every high level english speaking zerg is on the brink of actual depression or a race switch
i wasnt kidding when i said i stopped practicing because the damage to my mental state was worse than lacking practice.
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On January 26 2011 20:54 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 19:41 5unrise wrote:On January 26 2011 19:16 Plexa wrote:
The race which has the most reactive tendencies will invariably be the race that being moan about playing the most. It was like this in BW as well (Protoss against Zerg, Zerg against Terran, Terran against Protoss) and is still true in SC2 (Zerg against Terran, Zerg against Protoss, Protoss against Terran). That's all there is to it imo. yeah well at least there was a triangle of imbalance in bw >_>;; whenever zergies get owned by terran we can at least go pick on protosses to make ourselves feel better. Can't say the same for this game lol I am amazed how people are able to twist every post into imbalance / balance talk. He was talking about races moaning because they are the reactive race in the match up which has pretty much nothing to do with balance. Imo it's getting quite ridiculous that nearly every post is filled with imbalance '/ balance talk and I am getting quite sick of it.
but he's wrong, and why aren't we allowed to complain >_> just for the sake of not offending people like you?
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5 stars fed up of zerg whining, your not top level players in the GSL it is not imbalance holding you back, just like its not imbalance holding me back when i lose most my PvT's i need to improve my play instead of cry about it on forums.
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On January 26 2011 19:16 Plexa wrote:
The race which has the most reactive tendencies will invariably be the race that being moan about playing the most. It was like this in BW as well (Protoss against Zerg, Zerg against Terran, Terran against Protoss) and is still true in SC2 (Zerg against Terran, Zerg against Protoss, Protoss against Terran). That's all there is to it imo.
The problem with zerg, and why so many complain, is that it often feels like there's only one way to react or that the ways you have to react vary wildly.
Forge expand -> Baneling bust, Nydus, or take a 3rd. 2/3 of those can be covered with good sim city and sentries. The 3rd just means you have an even situation.
If you're being countered when 4 gating or stuff, then check the replay for his scouting information. If he's getting scouting information you're doing it wrong and you should place your buildings better + be better about sniping the overlord.
Use a variety of the new strategies as well like 1 gas 4 gate, 6 gate, phoenix pressure, and blink stalker. These newer strategies are generally better because they force more divergent and extreme responses. Your opponent went for hydras? You win with 1 gas 4 gate. You opponent didn't go for hydras? You win with blink stalkers or phoenixes. Mix in a more economical build now and then and you have a good set. If you're playing mostly on ladder you can probably just stick to one of the above really.
And learn these builds WELL. It's easy to do a build opening perfectly if you practice it, so do it until you get it down just right. A perfectly timed opening of one of the above is difficult to stop even if you expect it and that's what you're looking for. You'll take so many games from Zergies misjudging what your opening.
That's the single greatest strength of Protoss ZvP right now, and why they're possibly imbalanced. They can very easily force Zerg into having to prepare the proper counter while they're still on very very limited information. Sure you can't scout well yourself as Protoss, but when you are the aggressive one it's not nearly as big of a deal.
5 stars fed up of zerg whining, your not top level players in the GSL it is not imbalance holding you back, just like its not imbalance holding me back when i lose most my PvT's i need to improve my play instead of cry about it on forums.
The difference is that it's relatively easy to get into a micro/positioning/economic game vs Terran. ZvP can, and does, often end with the first push because of how scouting information works.
Just for example here's my scouting information mental checklist....
Cyber didn't start researching warp gate right away -> 1 Gate Stargate
1 Zealot 1 Stalker + 0 chrono boosts on gateway + 0 boost on cyber, but warp gate started right away -> Gate Robo most likely
1 Zealot 1 Stalker + 1 chrono on gateway and 1 chrono on cyber -> Blink Stalkers
1 Zealot 1 Stalker + 0 chrono on gateway and 1+ chrono on cyber -> 1 gas 4 gate
1 Zealot 1 Sentry + 0 chrono on gateway and 0-1 chrono on cyber -> 3 Gate expand, 3 gate robo
1 Zealot 1 Sentry + 0 chrono on gateway and 1+ chrono on cyber -> 4 gate / 5 gate
1 Zealot 1 Stalker + 1 chrono on gateway (and possibly more) -> 2 stalker or 1 stalker 1 zealot pressure
Forge Fast expand -> Forge Fast expand (lol this one is obvious of course)
So that's just a rough head of what goes through my brain in terms of scouting by about the 3-4 minute mark. It then diverges way more after that (is it 2 stargate or 1? Count the phoenixes. Is it 3 gate->6 gate, 3 gate->robo, or 3 gate->macro play? And so on).
Honestly how much of the Zerg timings do you as a Protoss player actually know? Do you know when my first vomit is? Do you know when my second vomit is? Do you know when my hatch will finish? When I can possibly have mutas? When I can possibly have Roaches?
Meanwhile on the zerg side I have to navigate a checklist like the one above every single game at the start, and MUST come to the right conclusion. Most of those strategies have mutually exclusive responses. Not to win, just to put the game in a 50/50 state where I can win.
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On January 26 2011 22:53 nekuodah wrote:
5 stars fed up of zerg whining, your not top level players in the GSL it is not imbalance holding you back, just like its not imbalance holding me back when i lose most my PvT's i need to improve my play instead of cry about it on forums.
The forum complainers are the people who don't know HOW to improve, I'd wager. Suddenly people realize "crap, starcraft is hard" and instead of meeting the challenge bitch about it...
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On January 26 2011 22:37 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 21:47 Sfydjklm wrote:On January 26 2011 21:24 Moonloop wrote:On January 26 2011 20:56 Sfydjklm wrote:On January 26 2011 20:40 Moonloop wrote:On January 26 2011 17:22 Sfydjklm wrote:
The real problem most zergs are facing are not imbalances, but the lack of inspiration, the lack of heroes, the lack of victorious zergs that can give you motivation. It's like being a person of color in the early years of post segregated america. While you seem to have all the rights you need to be great on paper there is still a lack of observable success, and the same kind of hopeless feeling of being cornered.
. What? NesTea is one of the greatest players in the world right now, and won GSL2. FruitDealer was an absolute hero for zerg, and won GSL1. IdrA is arguably the most famous (and, IMO, the best) foreign SC2 player. I know Zergs aren't doing well in other tournaments besides the GSL, but thats not the point here. Think about how inspired zergs were when FruitDealer crushed everyone in GSL1. Zerg have the MOST heroes and inspiration out of any race. I really don't see how you think they're lacking. =/ How could any zerg not be inspired by FruitDealer's tribute video? Protoss don't have any videos like that. *whine* Yes but that was in season 2 of GSL. Forever ago. Besides at some point you realize you can never be as good as Nestea and all you want is the knowledge that it's a fair game and your race is capable of winning at any bracket of skill. A conviction that zerg's are deprived of. Also never really was impressed by FD's GSL 1 victory. His opponents in the last rounds played like shit. I was more impressed by his post GSL 1 play both wins and losses alike he played phenomenal. That's your opinion though - you also said 'most zergs' in your original post. I would argue that 'most zergs' were inspired by FruitDealer's win. I know Rainbow played terribly, but still - FruitDealer was just better than all his opponents, and won the most prestigious SC2 tournament at a time when zergs were weakest. Maybe you're not personally inspired by the people I named, but I think many players are. I can see where you're coming from, and I agree that Zerg is weak at the moment, but I stand by my opinion that of all three races, Zerg have the most heroes. I'm not arguing with what you said. I am saying that GSL 2 was forever ago and bottom line is GSL S1 and 2 are now irrelevant. It just the nature of time and it's pointless to argue. And tbh WhiteRa is a bigger hero then pretty much anyone else in esports Man if Dimaga was winning i think there would be a lot less complaining going on. Being a hero is not just about winning its about the attitude too. A few weeks ago BratOk said that Dimaga was "depressed" about the current zerg situation and hence not performing well. I mean i dunno how liberal his use of the word was in that case but thinking about how severe something has to be to make someone as ridiculously positive as Dimaga depressed makes me depressed I lol every high level english speaking zerg is on the brink of actual depression or a race switch i wasnt kidding when i said i stopped practicing because the damage to my mental state was worse than lacking practice.
why not go back to T then? I mean i realize its disheartening to just completely restart from 0 just because some assholes in blizzard are clueless, but with the base you gained in SCBW there is simply no way you could possibly be worse then.. well i wont front Rain comes to mind immidiately.
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I dont agree with saying pvz is imba.
But i do agree that zerg whine on this site is absurd. Everyone acts like imbalances that only affect tip top pro players actually affect that average TLer. Get over yourself and play better.
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On January 26 2011 23:13 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 22:37 IdrA wrote:On January 26 2011 21:47 Sfydjklm wrote:On January 26 2011 21:24 Moonloop wrote:On January 26 2011 20:56 Sfydjklm wrote:On January 26 2011 20:40 Moonloop wrote:On January 26 2011 17:22 Sfydjklm wrote:
The real problem most zergs are facing are not imbalances, but the lack of inspiration, the lack of heroes, the lack of victorious zergs that can give you motivation. It's like being a person of color in the early years of post segregated america. While you seem to have all the rights you need to be great on paper there is still a lack of observable success, and the same kind of hopeless feeling of being cornered.
. What? NesTea is one of the greatest players in the world right now, and won GSL2. FruitDealer was an absolute hero for zerg, and won GSL1. IdrA is arguably the most famous (and, IMO, the best) foreign SC2 player. I know Zergs aren't doing well in other tournaments besides the GSL, but thats not the point here. Think about how inspired zergs were when FruitDealer crushed everyone in GSL1. Zerg have the MOST heroes and inspiration out of any race. I really don't see how you think they're lacking. =/ How could any zerg not be inspired by FruitDealer's tribute video? Protoss don't have any videos like that. *whine* Yes but that was in season 2 of GSL. Forever ago. Besides at some point you realize you can never be as good as Nestea and all you want is the knowledge that it's a fair game and your race is capable of winning at any bracket of skill. A conviction that zerg's are deprived of. Also never really was impressed by FD's GSL 1 victory. His opponents in the last rounds played like shit. I was more impressed by his post GSL 1 play both wins and losses alike he played phenomenal. That's your opinion though - you also said 'most zergs' in your original post. I would argue that 'most zergs' were inspired by FruitDealer's win. I know Rainbow played terribly, but still - FruitDealer was just better than all his opponents, and won the most prestigious SC2 tournament at a time when zergs were weakest. Maybe you're not personally inspired by the people I named, but I think many players are. I can see where you're coming from, and I agree that Zerg is weak at the moment, but I stand by my opinion that of all three races, Zerg have the most heroes. I'm not arguing with what you said. I am saying that GSL 2 was forever ago and bottom line is GSL S1 and 2 are now irrelevant. It just the nature of time and it's pointless to argue. And tbh WhiteRa is a bigger hero then pretty much anyone else in esports Man if Dimaga was winning i think there would be a lot less complaining going on. Being a hero is not just about winning its about the attitude too. A few weeks ago BratOk said that Dimaga was "depressed" about the current zerg situation and hence not performing well. I mean i dunno how liberal his use of the word was in that case but thinking about how severe something has to be to make someone as ridiculously positive as Dimaga depressed makes me depressed I lol every high level english speaking zerg is on the brink of actual depression or a race switch i wasnt kidding when i said i stopped practicing because the damage to my mental state was worse than lacking practice. why not go back to T then? I mean i realize its disheartening to just completely restart from 0 just because some assholes in blizzard are clueless, but with the base you gained in SCBW there is simply no way you could possibly be worse then.. well i wont front Rain comes to mind immidiately.
![[image loading]](http://images.cheezburger.com/completestore/2010/8/5/66b6fcd8-2d18-4fea-87fd-a33d72608095.jpg)
'nuff said?
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On January 26 2011 22:42 5unrise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 20:54 RvB wrote:On January 26 2011 19:41 5unrise wrote:On January 26 2011 19:16 Plexa wrote:
The race which has the most reactive tendencies will invariably be the race that being moan about playing the most. It was like this in BW as well (Protoss against Zerg, Zerg against Terran, Terran against Protoss) and is still true in SC2 (Zerg against Terran, Zerg against Protoss, Protoss against Terran). That's all there is to it imo. yeah well at least there was a triangle of imbalance in bw >_>;; whenever zergies get owned by terran we can at least go pick on protosses to make ourselves feel better. Can't say the same for this game lol I am amazed how people are able to twist every post into imbalance / balance talk. He was talking about races moaning because they are the reactive race in the match up which has pretty much nothing to do with balance. Imo it's getting quite ridiculous that nearly every post is filled with imbalance '/ balance talk and I am getting quite sick of it. but he's wrong, and why aren't we allowed to complain >_> just for the sake of not offending people like you?
You may complain but there is no need to spam a forum with zerg complains. Plus it's just weird if you react to a post and your reaction isn't even related to the one you quoted.
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On January 26 2011 23:25 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 22:42 5unrise wrote:On January 26 2011 20:54 RvB wrote:On January 26 2011 19:41 5unrise wrote:On January 26 2011 19:16 Plexa wrote:
The race which has the most reactive tendencies will invariably be the race that being moan about playing the most. It was like this in BW as well (Protoss against Zerg, Zerg against Terran, Terran against Protoss) and is still true in SC2 (Zerg against Terran, Zerg against Protoss, Protoss against Terran). That's all there is to it imo. yeah well at least there was a triangle of imbalance in bw >_>;; whenever zergies get owned by terran we can at least go pick on protosses to make ourselves feel better. Can't say the same for this game lol I am amazed how people are able to twist every post into imbalance / balance talk. He was talking about races moaning because they are the reactive race in the match up which has pretty much nothing to do with balance. Imo it's getting quite ridiculous that nearly every post is filled with imbalance '/ balance talk and I am getting quite sick of it. but he's wrong, and why aren't we allowed to complain >_> just for the sake of not offending people like you? You may complain but there is no need to spam a forum with zerg complains. Plus it's just weird if you react to a post and your reaction isn't even related to the one you quoted.
he was talking about how races in bw reacts to each other, which is the reason that T>Z>P>T, which is what I was talking about. I think that is pretty well related, perhaps not for people who havent played bw, in that case I should have expalined it better.
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On January 26 2011 23:18 Zeon0 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 23:13 Sfydjklm wrote:On January 26 2011 22:37 IdrA wrote:On January 26 2011 21:47 Sfydjklm wrote:On January 26 2011 21:24 Moonloop wrote:On January 26 2011 20:56 Sfydjklm wrote:On January 26 2011 20:40 Moonloop wrote:On January 26 2011 17:22 Sfydjklm wrote:
The real problem most zergs are facing are not imbalances, but the lack of inspiration, the lack of heroes, the lack of victorious zergs that can give you motivation. It's like being a person of color in the early years of post segregated america. While you seem to have all the rights you need to be great on paper there is still a lack of observable success, and the same kind of hopeless feeling of being cornered.
. What? NesTea is one of the greatest players in the world right now, and won GSL2. FruitDealer was an absolute hero for zerg, and won GSL1. IdrA is arguably the most famous (and, IMO, the best) foreign SC2 player. I know Zergs aren't doing well in other tournaments besides the GSL, but thats not the point here. Think about how inspired zergs were when FruitDealer crushed everyone in GSL1. Zerg have the MOST heroes and inspiration out of any race. I really don't see how you think they're lacking. =/ How could any zerg not be inspired by FruitDealer's tribute video? Protoss don't have any videos like that. *whine* Yes but that was in season 2 of GSL. Forever ago. Besides at some point you realize you can never be as good as Nestea and all you want is the knowledge that it's a fair game and your race is capable of winning at any bracket of skill. A conviction that zerg's are deprived of. Also never really was impressed by FD's GSL 1 victory. His opponents in the last rounds played like shit. I was more impressed by his post GSL 1 play both wins and losses alike he played phenomenal. That's your opinion though - you also said 'most zergs' in your original post. I would argue that 'most zergs' were inspired by FruitDealer's win. I know Rainbow played terribly, but still - FruitDealer was just better than all his opponents, and won the most prestigious SC2 tournament at a time when zergs were weakest. Maybe you're not personally inspired by the people I named, but I think many players are. I can see where you're coming from, and I agree that Zerg is weak at the moment, but I stand by my opinion that of all three races, Zerg have the most heroes. I'm not arguing with what you said. I am saying that GSL 2 was forever ago and bottom line is GSL S1 and 2 are now irrelevant. It just the nature of time and it's pointless to argue. And tbh WhiteRa is a bigger hero then pretty much anyone else in esports Man if Dimaga was winning i think there would be a lot less complaining going on. Being a hero is not just about winning its about the attitude too. A few weeks ago BratOk said that Dimaga was "depressed" about the current zerg situation and hence not performing well. I mean i dunno how liberal his use of the word was in that case but thinking about how severe something has to be to make someone as ridiculously positive as Dimaga depressed makes me depressed I lol every high level english speaking zerg is on the brink of actual depression or a race switch i wasnt kidding when i said i stopped practicing because the damage to my mental state was worse than lacking practice. why not go back to T then? I mean i realize its disheartening to just completely restart from 0 just because some assholes in blizzard are clueless, but with the base you gained in SCBW there is simply no way you could possibly be worse then.. well i wont front Rain comes to mind immidiately. 'nuff said?
:D
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On January 26 2011 14:30 travis wrote:
god damn, seriously. i can't believe how much zerg whine. especially about pvz. I seriously win like 1 out of 3 pvz, it's by far my worst matchup, and most protoss i know say it's hard too. I am by no means a bad player, pvz is NOT easy. lately I've even had these fucking zergs complaining about forcefields during the game AND THEN THEY BEAT ME.
the worst is zergs complaining about how hard it is to scout. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME. YOU HAVE OVERLORDS AND SPEEDLINGS. PROTOSS CAN'T SCOUT YOU AT ALL UNTIL HALLUCINATION OR OBSERVERS.
god, seriously, it's so fucking ridiculous. what is it about pvz im not understanding? seriously, the only way i ever win is by not engaging until I have a ridiculous army and then hoping the zerg wasn't good enough to take every base on the map in the mean time.
this rant was brought to you by me losing pretty much every pvz i've had for my last 20 pvz or so. I forge expand scrap station? they baneling bust. I forge expand to void ray shakuras? nydus in my base i barely fail to stop it lings stream in there goes my main. I try to hard 4gate? fast roach and lings. I play 3gate sentry expand on metalopolis? Guy outmacros me off his 2 bases and uses the wide area around the expansion to repeatedly attack me and i can't hold it. I go 2gate robo? Opponent goes mass speedlings into muta. WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO? in WHAT DIMENSION IS THIS EASY?
there are basically 2 options regarding how to respond to this post
1. explain in depth how the matchup plays out
2. tell you to give ZvP a try and find out by yourself
now, what will be the outcome of said options?
1. you skim over my response, while only looking at the MU from your PoV (as you beautifully demonstrated in your OP)
2. a) you actually play Z for a good amount of games and gain a deeper understanding for the game. this will also prevent the possibility of such terrible blogs being written in the future.
2. b) you ignore my post and continue complaining.
obviously 2a) is the best solution, however i heavily doubt that you will wind up doing that.
so whats the point?
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On January 26 2011 22:53 nekuodah wrote:
5 stars fed up of zerg whining, your not top level players in the GSL it is not imbalance holding you back, just like its not imbalance holding me back when i lose most my PvT's i need to improve my play instead of cry about it on forums.
You do realize that the OP himself is also whining? It may be dressed up as an attack on zerg whiners but it's pretty obviously an excuse for some whining of his own. I'm surprised that people can't see this.
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lol, imagine this blog was created by a random user..
also how did Megaliskuu's post not get any love?
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So, because you and your friends who are by no means good fail at PvZing it means that the match up is okay? Well, I guess all the pro Zergs in korea just need to l2p.
You see how ridiculous your reasoning is?
the worst is zergs complaining about how hard it is to scout. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME. YOU HAVE OVERLORDS AND SPEEDLINGS. PROTOSS CAN'T SCOUT YOU AT ALL UNTIL HALLUCINATION OR OBSERVERS.
maybe that's because YOU DONT NEED TO SCOUT UNITL HALLUS OR OBSERVERS ARE OUT, BECAUSE ZERG AND NOT TOSS IS THE REACTIONARY RACE. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?
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Speaking as a SC2-spectator (watch more than i play) Blizzard needs to do something and the players need to stop whining. Really, the only thing worse than the trouble zerg players are having (some trouble, not massive) are the zerg players complaining about it.
We get it already, no need to keep regurgitate the same thing over and over.
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On January 26 2011 14:52 LuckyFool wrote:embrace the rage travis! haha love seeing other rageblogs.
What do you think about lategame TvP?
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Is it just me or anyone else thinks that game is good balanced ?
yea it got little imba strategies but i think its balanced enough to not making a posts about that.
BTW im P / Z player but sometimes i play T for fun
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On January 27 2011 00:51 DND_Enkil wrote:
Speaking as a SC2-spectator (watch more than i play) Blizzard needs to do something and the players need to stop whining. Really, the only thing worse than the trouble zerg players are having (some trouble, not massive) are the zerg players complaining about it.
We get it already, no need to keep regurgitate the same thing over and over.
Speaking from a spectator point of view i would say:
PvZ right now is pure bullshit and the Zerg just seems to roll dice until about 5 Minutes into the game... If he rolled a 5 or 6 he will actually go to lategame, if not he has allready lost.
Seriously... I feel like all i see is:
A: Zerg doing everything right and winning in a seemingly close battle.
B: Zerg getting steamrolled in mid or lategame.
C: Protoss being a retard dieing to some all-in.
D: Protoss being totally outclassed.
It's not even fun to watch right now.
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On January 26 2011 15:14 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 15:07 qwaykee wrote:
please tell me how to scout pre-lair when you have stalkers watching the edges of your base. u could try to sacrifice an OL if u thought it was reasonable, but if not that's totally understandable. however you at least get to have vision immediately outside the protoss base, which is more than protoss gets in pvz(absolutely no scouting info outside of their ramp)
Here's a question you always have to ask when you talk about scouting:
1) what are you looking for
and
2) How will that change what you do
Fact is from the time ling speed hits to the time you can get hallucination out from a 3-gate expand, there's really nothing you HAVE to see.
In ZvP you really need to be able to tell the difference between 4-gate, 3-gate stargate, 3-gate expand, 3-gate robo. Sometimes you can get enough clues and sometimes you cannot, and if you're wrong, you can often just lose because of it.
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On January 27 2011 00:39 decaf wrote:So, because you and your friends who are by no means good fail at PvZing it means that the match up is okay? Well, I guess all the pro Zergs in korea just need to l2p. You see how ridiculous your reasoning is? Show nested quote +the worst is zergs complaining about how hard it is to scout. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME. YOU HAVE OVERLORDS AND SPEEDLINGS. PROTOSS CAN'T SCOUT YOU AT ALL UNTIL HALLUCINATION OR OBSERVERS.
maybe that's because YOU DONT NEED TO SCOUT UNITL HALLUS OR OBSERVERS ARE OUT, BECAUSE ZERG AND NOT TOSS IS THE REACTIONARY RACE. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME?
fuck yeah man. what decaf said^^ what the hell is a zerg going to do to you that you need to see? 1 base muta lmao. toss has 4 gate fun, void ray fun, phoenix awesomeness, dts, etc etc. and that can all be hidden in the main base of a toss. and that doesnt even include proxy bull shit. zerg does see 80% of the map, but whats the point if all that matters is the 20%?
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Hahaha, OP tells Zerg complainers to fuck off and then proceeds to complain himself. Love it. ^__^
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On January 26 2011 14:39 Megaliskuu wrote:
god damn, seriously. i can't believe how much protoss whine. especially about pvz. I seriously win like 1 out of 3 zvp, it's by far my worst matchup, and most zerg i know say it's hard too. I am by no means a bad player, zvp is NOT easy. lately I've even had these fucking protoss complaining about roaches during the game AND THEN THEY BEAT ME.
the worst is protoss complaining about how hard it is to scout. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME. YOU HAVE HALUCINATIONS AND CLOAKED DETECTORS. ZERG CAN'T SCOUT YOU AT ALL ONCE A STALKER IS OUT WITHOUT SACRIFICING AN OVERLORD.
god, seriously, it's so fucking ridiculous. what is it about zvp im not understanding? seriously, the only way i ever win is by not engaging until I have a ridiculous army and then hoping the protoss wasn't good enough to attack with his 2 base death ball.
this rant was brought to you by me losing pretty much every zvp i've had for my last 20 zvp or so. I 14 hatch on scrap station? they cannon rush. I speedling expand on shakuras? warp prism 4 gate in my base i barely fail to stop it zealot stream in there goes my nat. I try to hard roach rush? sentries and cannons. I play muta on metalopolis? Guy 1a's uses the wide area around the expansion to repeatedly attack me and i can't hold it. I go drone heavy? Opponent goes mass gateway units into collosus. I go one of the 3 builds zerg has? Protoss uses one of the 20 they have. WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO? in WHAT DIMENSION IS THIS EASY?
<3 you megalisk :D :D
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On January 27 2011 01:33 WniO wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 00:39 decaf wrote:So, because you and your friends who are by no means good fail at PvZing it means that the match up is okay? Well, I guess all the pro Zergs in korea just need to l2p. You see how ridiculous your reasoning is? the worst is zergs complaining about how hard it is to scout. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME. YOU HAVE OVERLORDS AND SPEEDLINGS. PROTOSS CAN'T SCOUT YOU AT ALL UNTIL HALLUCINATION OR OBSERVERS.
maybe that's because YOU DONT NEED TO SCOUT UNITL HALLUS OR OBSERVERS ARE OUT, BECAUSE ZERG AND NOT TOSS IS THE REACTIONARY RACE. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? fuck yeah man. what decaf said^^ what the hell is a zerg going to do to you that you need to see? 1 base muta lmao. toss has 4 gate fun, void ray fun, phoenix awesomeness, dts, etc etc. and that can all be hidden in the main base of a toss. and that doesnt even include proxy bull shit. zerg does see 80% of the map, but whats the point if all that matters is the 20%?
LOL WHAT THE FUCK?! You have to scout way before then because you don't know if they are cheesing, fast expanding, fucking their unit composition, their starting location, drone count, ovie count, the things you need are fucking endless, zergs act like they're so underpowered. And idra, if you really are then just do what you did in sc1 when it got too hard, you switched to T then, yet you didn't call for Zerg buffs.
Taken from a interview with Idra from Fnatic:
+ Show Spoiler +but one thing I found very funny: Reason to play T: "I enjoyed the challenge of playing the most difficult race. " Later on, what made you switch from Z to T: "I played them zvt over and over, and I played a very lair focused, macro oriented style, and it just didn't work vs them because their macro was too good. I had always played terran vs zerg because I didn't like zerg vs zerg, so I gradually began to switch over entirely out of frustration." hahahaha cuz of playing the most difficult race my ass! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=100520
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Flipping a coin is balanced as well. Do it 10000 times and you get roughly 50% tails, so why would anyone complain about a coinflip to decide who won? Why let skill be a factor when a coinflip is balanced?
Why look into WHY some people think there is an issue, when I can pull statistics like my own winrate and say listen IF I HAVE 33% WINRATE(ROFL) AGAINST ZERG ITS BALANCED!
Like seriously a million things can be done to balance the game, depending on which dynamics you want to play out. You want games decided on coinflips? On BLIND hardcounters? Is that your definition of skill? Is that really how you want SC2 to be played?
OP your name may be purple for whatever reason and you made a lot of posts but I think you made one of the worst threads I've seen on TL.
No I dont play zerg.
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On January 27 2011 01:46 Trowabarton756 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 01:33 WniO wrote:On January 27 2011 00:39 decaf wrote:So, because you and your friends who are by no means good fail at PvZing it means that the match up is okay? Well, I guess all the pro Zergs in korea just need to l2p. You see how ridiculous your reasoning is? the worst is zergs complaining about how hard it is to scout. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME. YOU HAVE OVERLORDS AND SPEEDLINGS. PROTOSS CAN'T SCOUT YOU AT ALL UNTIL HALLUCINATION OR OBSERVERS.
maybe that's because YOU DONT NEED TO SCOUT UNITL HALLUS OR OBSERVERS ARE OUT, BECAUSE ZERG AND NOT TOSS IS THE REACTIONARY RACE. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? fuck yeah man. what decaf said^^ what the hell is a zerg going to do to you that you need to see? 1 base muta lmao. toss has 4 gate fun, void ray fun, phoenix awesomeness, dts, etc etc. and that can all be hidden in the main base of a toss. and that doesnt even include proxy bull shit. zerg does see 80% of the map, but whats the point if all that matters is the 20%? LOL WHAT THE FUCK?! You have to scout way before then because you don't know if they are cheesing, fast expanding, fucking their unit composition, their starting location, drone count, ovie count, the things you need are fucking endless, zergs act like they're so underpowered. And idra, if you really are then just do what you did in sc1 when it got too hard, you switched to T then, yet you didn't call for Zerg buffs.
Scouting with a probe in the very beginning was implied, but there are always the guys that need to hear it explicitly..
And in case you didn't know, the very same moment the Zerg does FE he's already lost because then the toss will open with a forge and place cannons in your mineral line.
You're better off reading the State of Zerg thread I wrote, because you got no clue about this game.
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=187685
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On January 27 2011 01:49 decaf wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 01:46 Trowabarton756 wrote:On January 27 2011 01:33 WniO wrote:On January 27 2011 00:39 decaf wrote:So, because you and your friends who are by no means good fail at PvZing it means that the match up is okay? Well, I guess all the pro Zergs in korea just need to l2p. You see how ridiculous your reasoning is? the worst is zergs complaining about how hard it is to scout. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME. YOU HAVE OVERLORDS AND SPEEDLINGS. PROTOSS CAN'T SCOUT YOU AT ALL UNTIL HALLUCINATION OR OBSERVERS.
maybe that's because YOU DONT NEED TO SCOUT UNITL HALLUS OR OBSERVERS ARE OUT, BECAUSE ZERG AND NOT TOSS IS THE REACTIONARY RACE. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME? fuck yeah man. what decaf said^^ what the hell is a zerg going to do to you that you need to see? 1 base muta lmao. toss has 4 gate fun, void ray fun, phoenix awesomeness, dts, etc etc. and that can all be hidden in the main base of a toss. and that doesnt even include proxy bull shit. zerg does see 80% of the map, but whats the point if all that matters is the 20%? LOL WHAT THE FUCK?! You have to scout way before then because you don't know if they are cheesing, fast expanding, fucking their unit composition, their starting location, drone count, ovie count, the things you need are fucking endless, zergs act like they're so underpowered. And idra, if you really are then just do what you did in sc1 when it got too hard, you switched to T then, yet you didn't call for Zerg buffs. Scouting with a probe in the very beginning was implied, but there are always the guys that need to hear it explicitly.. And in case you didn't know, the very same moment the Zerg does FE he's already lost because then the toss will open with a forge and place cannons in your mineral line. You're better off reading the State of Zerg thread I wrote, because you got no clue about this game. http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?topic_id=187685
Oh so you're saying you just fucking suck at defending cannon rushes? Because clearly you have no fucking idea about this game. I play protoss you stupid bitch and I never cannon rush and I take it to a macro game. I feel confident I can match zerg because of my abilities, but there still are zergs who beat me. Why you ask? Because they are clearly superior players to you.
They are better then you at everything. And if that was "clearly" the case of the scouting probe, why would you say you don't need to scout till hallu/obs? Ya...fail logic there, nice try though, it anit the game bro, its the player(...you...)
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Surely, mods wont do anything about this thread, of course not. They only lock up those who QQ about balance. Not threads that insults Zergs.
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Look at what you have done Travis!
YOU'VE CREATED A MONSTER!
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Though i think protoss is fine, all the whiners do need to shut up.
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Lots of you are too stupid to get it, I'm saying that pvz is plenty hard this isn't a one sided affair. If I am losing to players because I don't play well enough (which is probably the case), then that is totally fine. My point is that it's NOT AT ALL EASY.
As for the people who responded to me "there is nothing protoss would need to scout until hallucination anyways", that's absolute bullshit. There's been so many pvzs where if I had 4gated I would have won the game, but instead I 3gate sentry expand and wait for hallucination, then I watch the replay and until I had hallucination they literally made only drones with their 4 speedlings outside my ramp preventing a probe from leaving.
the reason i made this rage blog isn't because im losing pvz. it's because im losing pvz AND meanwhile every other zerg on the planet, both better than me and worse than me, is complaining about how imbalanced and hard the matchup is for them.
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No, you are the one not getting what (smart) zergs complain about; that they have to blind counter, rely on good map positions and in other ways flip a coin to win in any match up. It is frustrating as hell to lose to luck and not to skill.
Surely you run into the usual OMFG MARAUDERS NERF OMG players that doesnt really understand the game and blame a loss on balance; but really anyone who actually got a clue have a point to speak and you are telling them to shut the fuck up, that your statistics (33% winrate rofl) proves that they got nothing to whine about and you expect people to just take that?
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On January 27 2011 03:01 Chibalicious wrote:
No, you are the one not getting what (smart) zergs complain about; that they have to blind counter, rely on good map positions and in other ways flip a coin to win in any match up. It is frustrating as hell to lose to luck and not to skill.
protoss players have to deal with the exact same shit sometimes... what you're saying is soooo one sided. do you think cross position metal is easy pvz? or that you can't lose to bad luck when the zerg pumps mass speedlings then waits until you move to to the tower, surrounds you, and kills everything?
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Denmark207 Posts
On January 27 2011 03:13 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 03:01 Chibalicious wrote:
No, you are the one not getting what (smart) zergs complain about; that they have to blind counter, rely on good map positions and in other ways flip a coin to win in any match up. It is frustrating as hell to lose to luck and not to skill.
protoss players have to deal with the exact same shit sometimes... what you're saying is soooo one sided. do you think cross position metal is easy pvz? or that you can't lose to bad luck when the zerg pumps mass speedlings then waits until you move to to the tower, surrounds you, and kills everything?
ahh yes if only mass zerglings kills everything, then protoss get 2-3 collossus and good bye ground army
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On January 27 2011 02:54 travis wrote:
As for the people who responded to me "there is nothing protoss would need to scout until hallucination anyways", that's absolute bullshit. There's been so many pvzs where if I had 4gated I would have won the game, but instead I 3gate sentry expand and wait for hallucination, then I watch the replay and until I had hallucination they literally made only drones with their 4 speedlings outside my ramp preventing a probe from leaving..
That is standard for a zerg trying to play a macro game vs toss. It might look like you had a big opportunity, but you didnt because you already put down the expansion. If the zerg made units earlier and went into a macro game, they would be at a disadvantage later in the game. As a zerg who will do this I will say that usually what happens in macro game is I hit, or am about to hit, 200 food and my opponent is at about 115-145 food (depending on how aggressive and effective he was). Then it comes down to positioning and forcefields (you got sentry first for lots of mana right?). The toss will try to hold his 3 base and use his observers to gain proper position before the fight happens. If toss can defend very well at this point and continue macroing to a larger army (or start working down on the zerg's money) then the toss will eventually get to a point where he can make a very deadly push.
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On January 27 2011 02:54 travis wrote:
Lots of you are too stupid to get it, I'm saying that pvz is plenty hard this isn't a one sided affair. If I am losing to players because I don't play well enough (which is probably the case), then that is totally fine. My point is that it's NOT AT ALL EASY.
As for the people who responded to me "there is nothing protoss would need to scout until hallucination anyways", that's absolute bullshit. There's been so many pvzs where if I had 4gated I would have won the game, but instead I 3gate sentry expand and wait for hallucination, then I watch the replay and until I had hallucination they literally made only drones with their 4 speedlings outside my ramp preventing a probe from leaving.
the reason i made this rage blog isn't because im losing pvz. it's because im losing pvz AND meanwhile every other zerg on the planet, both better than me and worse than me, is complaining about how imbalanced and hard the matchup is for them.
Don't you see how broken it would be if you had that sort of power. You'd never ever lose PvZ if you could scout that timing. If Zerg drones up and you 4 gate you win (duh), if Zerg doesn't drone up and you 3 gate expand you win. How would that ever be fair? The scouting information you're aiming for is the difference between winning the game and continuing the game. In the Zerg's case it's the difference between losing the game and continuing the game. That's why Zerg players complain it's harder.
Expanding on a Zerg who's droning up isn't a loss. If you hold your macro well and apply pressure (6 gate, stargate play, grabbing a 3rd) then you should be able to bring the game into an even state provided you blocked their hatch first attempt.
I don't doubt you feel the match up is hard for Protoss, even if I disagree if that's actually the case, but in terms of play it doesn't sound like you're executing really sound strategies and a lot of your losses come from non-mechanical mistakes. Meanwhile, most struggling Zergs don't really ever end up finding better strategies to execute, and instead it's just play better, scout better, know the timings better.
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On January 27 2011 03:27 Genzo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 03:13 travis wrote:On January 27 2011 03:01 Chibalicious wrote:
No, you are the one not getting what (smart) zergs complain about; that they have to blind counter, rely on good map positions and in other ways flip a coin to win in any match up. It is frustrating as hell to lose to luck and not to skill.
protoss players have to deal with the exact same shit sometimes... what you're saying is soooo one sided. do you think cross position metal is easy pvz? or that you can't lose to bad luck when the zerg pumps mass speedlings then waits until you move to to the tower, surrounds you, and kills everything? ahh yes if only mass zerglings kills everything, then protoss get 2-3 collossus and good bye ground army
GREAT REPLY MAN. IT DOESNT HURT PROTOSS AT ALL TO LOSE EVERYTHING
also, Collossi are free! Another great advantage of playing protoss! and u can tech to them in 5 seconds!
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On January 27 2011 03:30 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 03:27 Genzo wrote:On January 27 2011 03:13 travis wrote:On January 27 2011 03:01 Chibalicious wrote:
No, you are the one not getting what (smart) zergs complain about; that they have to blind counter, rely on good map positions and in other ways flip a coin to win in any match up. It is frustrating as hell to lose to luck and not to skill.
protoss players have to deal with the exact same shit sometimes... what you're saying is soooo one sided. do you think cross position metal is easy pvz? or that you can't lose to bad luck when the zerg pumps mass speedlings then waits until you move to to the tower, surrounds you, and kills everything? ahh yes if only mass zerglings kills everything, then protoss get 2-3 collossus and good bye ground army GREAT REPLY MAN. IT DOESNT HURT PROTOSS AT ALL TO LOSE EVERYTHING also, Collossi are free! Another great advantage of playing protoss! and u can tech to them in 5 seconds!
Don't ignore the reasonable posts for the crazy ones =/.
Still he kinda mentions some of the stuff you can do if you're worried about x-positions meta. Grabbing a 3rd and going for a larger scaled attack can be really effective cross positions or with longer rush distances, especially if you incorporate a warp prism or other harassment to punish the zerg for spreading out past 3 bases. That should put you in the situation where you can make use of higher tech units like colossi to avoid getting roasted by lings. A zerg expanding to 4+ bases is a concern, but keep in mind the diminishing returns. If you're on 3 bases with 70 workers and the zerg is on 4/5 bases with 70 workers your economies aren't going to be that far apart and you have much better mineral sinks than the Zerg player in large scale armies (Roaches > Stalkers in small battles, but in big ball battles the Stalkers become increasingly cost efficient by comparison).
Also you can secure the tower with a probe (who will later be used for proxy pylon) to make sure you're not setting yourself up for a flank.
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+ Show Spoiler +On January 27 2011 03:30 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 02:54 travis wrote:
Lots of you are too stupid to get it, I'm saying that pvz is plenty hard this isn't a one sided affair. If I am losing to players because I don't play well enough (which is probably the case), then that is totally fine. My point is that it's NOT AT ALL EASY.
As for the people who responded to me "there is nothing protoss would need to scout until hallucination anyways", that's absolute bullshit. There's been so many pvzs where if I had 4gated I would have won the game, but instead I 3gate sentry expand and wait for hallucination, then I watch the replay and until I had hallucination they literally made only drones with their 4 speedlings outside my ramp preventing a probe from leaving.
the reason i made this rage blog isn't because im losing pvz. it's because im losing pvz AND meanwhile every other zerg on the planet, both better than me and worse than me, is complaining about how imbalanced and hard the matchup is for them. Don't you see how broken it would be if you had that sort of power. You'd never ever lose PvZ if you could scout that timing. If Zerg drones up and you 4 gate you win (duh), if Zerg doesn't drone up and you 3 gate expand you win. How would that ever be fair? The scouting information you're aiming for is the difference between winning the game and continuing the game. In the Zerg's case it's the difference between losing the game and continuing the game. That's why Zerg players complain it's harder. Expanding on a Zerg who's droning up isn't a loss. If you hold your macro well and apply pressure (6 gate, stargate play, grabbing a 3rd) then you should be able to bring the game into an even state provided you blocked their hatch first attempt. I don't doubt you feel the match up is hard for Protoss, even if I disagree if that's actually the case, but in terms of play it doesn't sound like you're executing really sound strategies and a lot of your losses come from non-mechanical mistakes. Meanwhile, most struggling Zergs don't really ever end up finding better strategies to execute, and instead it's just play better, scout better, know the timings better.
You make no fucking sense lol. "Meanwhile, most struggling Zergs don't really ever end up finding better strategies to execute, and instead it's just play better, scout better, know the timings better." isn't related to mechanics eh? So what you're saying that these zergs aren't mechanically proficient? Lol no wonder they are losing, get out of here with this garbage "reasonable" post.
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On January 27 2011 03:13 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 03:01 Chibalicious wrote:
No, you are the one not getting what (smart) zergs complain about; that they have to blind counter, rely on good map positions and in other ways flip a coin to win in any match up. It is frustrating as hell to lose to luck and not to skill.
protoss players have to deal with the exact same shit sometimes... what you're saying is soooo one sided. do you think cross position metal is easy pvz? or that you can't lose to bad luck when the zerg pumps mass speedlings then waits until you move to to the tower, surrounds you, and kills everything?
No, cross meta is not easy for toss, it's just fair. Since Zergs lose so much to unbalanced shit you get owned by "evenly" skilled zergs on cross positions and then you call that unfair. In fact Zergs have to play against worse players who win by abusing imbalance. Whe you play on balanced spawn positions and you don't do some cheese build you should lose to the Zerg, which is show evenly but in fact is better.
I bet if yo would try to improve your ZvP a bit you will realize how easy this matchup is.
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i agree with travis
zergs complain too much
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United States996 Posts
lets play some 2s later today. can rage it all out then
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Holy shit I love you OP
Zerg martyrdom makes the SC2 general forum impossible to read
5/5
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The only time I feel bad playing against a zerg is when I forge FE on jungle basin. Maybe I've just been playing terrible zergs on that map, but once I get that expo up I feel like I'm cheating. More of a map issue than race balance though.
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On January 27 2011 03:48 Trowabarton756 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 27 2011 03:30 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 02:54 travis wrote:
Lots of you are too stupid to get it, I'm saying that pvz is plenty hard this isn't a one sided affair. If I am losing to players because I don't play well enough (which is probably the case), then that is totally fine. My point is that it's NOT AT ALL EASY.
As for the people who responded to me "there is nothing protoss would need to scout until hallucination anyways", that's absolute bullshit. There's been so many pvzs where if I had 4gated I would have won the game, but instead I 3gate sentry expand and wait for hallucination, then I watch the replay and until I had hallucination they literally made only drones with their 4 speedlings outside my ramp preventing a probe from leaving.
the reason i made this rage blog isn't because im losing pvz. it's because im losing pvz AND meanwhile every other zerg on the planet, both better than me and worse than me, is complaining about how imbalanced and hard the matchup is for them. Don't you see how broken it would be if you had that sort of power. You'd never ever lose PvZ if you could scout that timing. If Zerg drones up and you 4 gate you win (duh), if Zerg doesn't drone up and you 3 gate expand you win. How would that ever be fair? The scouting information you're aiming for is the difference between winning the game and continuing the game. In the Zerg's case it's the difference between losing the game and continuing the game. That's why Zerg players complain it's harder. Expanding on a Zerg who's droning up isn't a loss. If you hold your macro well and apply pressure (6 gate, stargate play, grabbing a 3rd) then you should be able to bring the game into an even state provided you blocked their hatch first attempt. I don't doubt you feel the match up is hard for Protoss, even if I disagree if that's actually the case, but in terms of play it doesn't sound like you're executing really sound strategies and a lot of your losses come from non-mechanical mistakes. Meanwhile, most struggling Zergs don't really ever end up finding better strategies to execute, and instead it's just play better, scout better, know the timings better. You make no fucking sense lol. "Meanwhile, most struggling Zergs don't really ever end up finding better strategies to execute, and instead it's just play better, scout better, know the timings better." isn't related to mechanics eh? So what you're saying that these zergs aren't mechanically proficient? Lol no wonder they are losing, get out of here with this garbage "reasonable" post.
Lol, what's hard to understand about it. The improvements Zerg make are about adjusting their timings and not lapsing in their scouting, overlord positioning, creep spread or unit productions (APM intensive tasks). The basic ZvP strategies from the Zerg's side haven't really changed at all and are widely known; the adjustments players make are being better mechanically or understanding a Protoss timing better. Meanwhile struggling Protoss players, and likely Travis given his descriptions, are often executing strategies that have newer stronger versions and migrating to those strategies will give you a big boost.
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I love rage blogs. 5/5
Seriously though, it just depends on your perspective. A friend of mine was telling me how he hates ZvP, but then he tried to PvZ and realized it's not as easy as he thought it would be.
Force fields are obnoxious. So aren't concussive shells. But, just because something is irritating doesn't mean it's unfair.
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On January 27 2011 05:26 dronebabo wrote:
summary: each race thinks the other complains too much
I don't play this game and I think everyone complains too much.
Of course I do my fair share of complaining in the games that I do play... but not quite to this degree.
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On January 27 2011 00:53 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 14:52 LuckyFool wrote:embrace the rage travis! haha love seeing other rageblogs. What do you think about lategame TvP?
I think lategame tvp is retarded.
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On January 27 2011 12:39 LuckyFool wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 00:53 Sadistx wrote:On January 26 2011 14:52 LuckyFool wrote:embrace the rage travis! haha love seeing other rageblogs. What do you think about lategame TvP? I think lategame tvp is retarded.
u need to try using siege tank / thor / ghost
srsly
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On January 27 2011 14:23 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 12:39 LuckyFool wrote:On January 27 2011 00:53 Sadistx wrote:On January 26 2011 14:52 LuckyFool wrote:embrace the rage travis! haha love seeing other rageblogs. What do you think about lategame TvP? I think lategame tvp is retarded. u need to try using siege tank / thor / ghost srsly
dude by the time that shiz gets going toss either has mass void rays or carriers and just roflstomps.
I just 1base allin vs toss now every game. and still get raped.
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Travis, try doing some DT builds. They've been winning me tons of games. DT into blink stalker, use stalkers/DTs to deny the third repeatedly while scouting his composition. It's soooo fun.
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post replayz so we may bask in your tears and sorrow :3
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On January 27 2011 14:26 LuckyFool wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 14:23 travis wrote:On January 27 2011 12:39 LuckyFool wrote:On January 27 2011 00:53 Sadistx wrote:On January 26 2011 14:52 LuckyFool wrote:embrace the rage travis! haha love seeing other rageblogs. What do you think about lategame TvP? I think lategame tvp is retarded. u need to try using siege tank / thor / ghost srsly dude by the time that shiz gets going toss either has mass void rays or carriers and just roflstomps. I just 1base allin vs toss now every game. and still get raped.
your not doing it right.
Mass VR or Carrier requires like 4-5 bases to get up and working, as well as not loosing your army and having to rebuild it.
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Zerglings should absolutely not be able to hit probes without the speed upgrade. It makes scouting so much harder, every time you send a probe out its GUARANTEED to be caught and die eventually. Usually sooner than later.
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On January 26 2011 14:39 Megaliskuu wrote:
god damn, seriously. i can't believe how much protoss whine. especially about pvz. I seriously win like 1 out of 3 zvp, it's by far my worst matchup, and most zerg i know say it's hard too. I am by no means a bad player, zvp is NOT easy. lately I've even had these fucking protoss complaining about roaches during the game AND THEN THEY BEAT ME.
the worst is protoss complaining about how hard it is to scout. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME. YOU HAVE HALUCINATIONS AND CLOAKED DETECTORS. ZERG CAN'T SCOUT YOU AT ALL ONCE A STALKER IS OUT WITHOUT SACRIFICING AN OVERLORD.
god, seriously, it's so fucking ridiculous. what is it about zvp im not understanding? seriously, the only way i ever win is by not engaging until I have a ridiculous army and then hoping the protoss wasn't good enough to attack with his 2 base death ball.
this rant was brought to you by me losing pretty much every zvp i've had for my last 20 zvp or so. I 14 hatch on scrap station? they cannon rush. I speedling expand on shakuras? warp prism 4 gate in my base i barely fail to stop it zealot stream in there goes my nat. I try to hard roach rush? sentries and cannons. I play muta on metalopolis? Guy 1a's uses the wide area around the expansion to repeatedly attack me and i can't hold it. I go drone heavy? Opponent goes mass gateway units into collosus. I go one of the 3 builds zerg has? Protoss uses one of the 20 they have. WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO? in WHAT DIMENSION IS THIS EASY?
Really wish I could 5-star this post.
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This reminds me of that zvp rage/troll thread in the BW forums lol
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On January 27 2011 05:27 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 03:48 Trowabarton756 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 27 2011 03:30 Logo wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 02:54 travis wrote:
Lots of you are too stupid to get it, I'm saying that pvz is plenty hard this isn't a one sided affair. If I am losing to players because I don't play well enough (which is probably the case), then that is totally fine. My point is that it's NOT AT ALL EASY.
As for the people who responded to me "there is nothing protoss would need to scout until hallucination anyways", that's absolute bullshit. There's been so many pvzs where if I had 4gated I would have won the game, but instead I 3gate sentry expand and wait for hallucination, then I watch the replay and until I had hallucination they literally made only drones with their 4 speedlings outside my ramp preventing a probe from leaving.
the reason i made this rage blog isn't because im losing pvz. it's because im losing pvz AND meanwhile every other zerg on the planet, both better than me and worse than me, is complaining about how imbalanced and hard the matchup is for them. Don't you see how broken it would be if you had that sort of power. You'd never ever lose PvZ if you could scout that timing. If Zerg drones up and you 4 gate you win (duh), if Zerg doesn't drone up and you 3 gate expand you win. How would that ever be fair? The scouting information you're aiming for is the difference between winning the game and continuing the game. In the Zerg's case it's the difference between losing the game and continuing the game. That's why Zerg players complain it's harder. Expanding on a Zerg who's droning up isn't a loss. If you hold your macro well and apply pressure (6 gate, stargate play, grabbing a 3rd) then you should be able to bring the game into an even state provided you blocked their hatch first attempt. I don't doubt you feel the match up is hard for Protoss, even if I disagree if that's actually the case, but in terms of play it doesn't sound like you're executing really sound strategies and a lot of your losses come from non-mechanical mistakes. Meanwhile, most struggling Zergs don't really ever end up finding better strategies to execute, and instead it's just play better, scout better, know the timings better. You make no fucking sense lol. "Meanwhile, most struggling Zergs don't really ever end up finding better strategies to execute, and instead it's just play better, scout better, know the timings better." isn't related to mechanics eh? So what you're saying that these zergs aren't mechanically proficient? Lol no wonder they are losing, get out of here with this garbage "reasonable" post. Lol, what's hard to understand about it. The improvements Zerg make are about adjusting their timings and not lapsing in their scouting, overlord positioning, creep spread or unit productions (APM intensive tasks). The basic ZvP strategies from the Zerg's side haven't really changed at all and are widely known; the adjustments players make are being better mechanically or understanding a Protoss timing better. Meanwhile struggling Protoss players, and likely Travis given his descriptions, are often executing strategies that have newer stronger versions and migrating to those strategies will give you a big boost.
never post again, not because your post was bad. just because you're at 1337!
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On January 27 2011 15:17 Wolf wrote:
Travis, try doing some DT builds. They've been winning me tons of games. DT into blink stalker, use stalkers/DTs to deny the third repeatedly while scouting his composition. It's soooo fun.
why not blink stalker into DT? i mean blink stalker can result in an auto win moreso than DT's can. against DT they just need an overseer but against blink theyll need a critical mass of hydra to stop it.
i guess im just of the opinion that being unprepared against blink stalker does more damage to Z than being unprepared against dts.
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On January 26 2011 14:40 mahnini wrote:
terran is the best race
Why can't I report banlings? This post deserves warning.
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On January 27 2011 03:13 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 03:01 Chibalicious wrote:
No, you are the one not getting what (smart) zergs complain about; that they have to blind counter, rely on good map positions and in other ways flip a coin to win in any match up. It is frustrating as hell to lose to luck and not to skill.
protoss players have to deal with the exact same shit sometimes... what you're saying is soooo one sided. do you think cross position metal is easy pvz? or that you can't lose to bad luck when the zerg pumps mass speedlings then waits until you move to to the tower, surrounds you, and kills everything?
Are you not making enough sentries? Cause pure speedling when a toss has sentries is just lol watch as you try to engage and he ff's and your lings can't even tough his army (don't even count when he traps half of your zerglings).
I dunno why you would move out so early anyway if pure speeding is gonna beat you just stay on 2 base get sentry/colossi/stalker/zealot while expanding zergs not gonna break you lol just not possible if you use forcefields correctly.
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On January 28 2011 17:07 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 03:13 travis wrote:On January 27 2011 03:01 Chibalicious wrote:
No, you are the one not getting what (smart) zergs complain about; that they have to blind counter, rely on good map positions and in other ways flip a coin to win in any match up. It is frustrating as hell to lose to luck and not to skill.
protoss players have to deal with the exact same shit sometimes... what you're saying is soooo one sided. do you think cross position metal is easy pvz? or that you can't lose to bad luck when the zerg pumps mass speedlings then waits until you move to to the tower, surrounds you, and kills everything? Are you not making enough sentries? Cause pure speedling when a toss has sentries is just lol watch as you try to engage and he ff's and your lings can't even tough his army (don't even count when he traps half of your zerglings). I dunno why you would move out so early anyway if pure speeding is gonna beat you just stay on 2 base get sentry/colossi/stalker/zealot while expanding zergs not gonna break you lol just not possible if you use forcefields correctly.
the problem is that you have NO FUCKING IDEA whether he is making like 60 zerglings or not, and you wont be able to know as long as a scouting probe gets sniped by speedlings as it tries to escape the protoss natural. speedlings literally shutdown scouting unless you happen to scout with your whole army which might not even be big enough to deal with that many zerglings. and then you also have to deal with the issue of his zerglings doing a massive run-by as your army leaves, running away to safety before your slow ass sentries can make their way back to the nexus.
are you seriously so blinded by your bias that you didnt even understand what you responded to?
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On January 26 2011 14:30 travis wrote:
WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO? in WHAT DIMENSION IS THIS EASY?
Watch a replay
I dont get why you will insult zerg players because youre fucking awful at PvZ. There is so much bs in your post that i can say almost certainly that you have no understanding of the current metagame.. saying zerg can scout your base with speedlings... oh my god
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The main reason Zerg players QQ so much is because its much much much much much (x100) times easier for a Zerg to lose to a player worse than him just cause he didn't scout something or misjudged a push by less that a minute. Doesn't help that Zerg early game scouting is tough.
Like yesteday I lost 3 ZvPs to the same build. Guy opens with 2 void rays. I'm busy defending them by getting spores and 4 queens. Meanwhile he's walled in his natural and has a stalker checking his perimeter so I don't know if he follows up with more void rays, adds another stargate, expands, or pushes. 3 opposite ways for me to react, each one I basically lose if I guess wrong. I had to sac 2 overlords to scout him, but I didn't see anything in his base. Turns out he proxied 4 warpgates and followed up with a huge push (yes, this happened 3 fking times =_=). I knew something was up and prepared for a push as well as the possibiity of more void rays but he just had way too many units considering I spent so much on 2 void rays.
I'm actually really comfortable with late game Zerg and my midgame is really solid vs all races if I can get there on even footing. Problem is its so fucking easy to die as Zerg
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On January 28 2011 21:23 SubtleArt wrote:
The main reason Zerg players QQ so much is because its much much much much much (x100) times easier for a Zerg to lose to a player worse than him just cause he didn't scout something or misjudged a push by less that a minute. Doesn't help that Zerg early game scouting is tough.
Like yesteday I lost 3 ZvPs to the same build. Guy opens with 2 void rays. I'm busy defending them by getting spores and 4 queens. Meanwhile he's walled in his natural and has a stalker checking his perimeter so I don't know if he follows up with more void rays, adds another stargate, expands, or pushes. 3 opposite ways for me to react, each one I basically lose if I guess wrong. I had to sac 2 overlords to scout him, but I didn't see anything in his base. Turns out he proxied 4 warpgates and followed up with a huge push (yes, this happened 3 fking times =_=). I knew something was up and prepared for a push as well as the possibiity of more void rays but he just had way too many units considering I spent so much on 2 void rays.
I'm actually really comfortable with late game Zerg and my midgame is really solid vs all races if I can get there on even footing. Problem is its so fucking easy to die as Zerg
Seems like you lost too much defending VRs. I mean it's pretty obvious you should have been going for a big hydra/roach ball during the mid game to not die. Isn't that how most ZvPs go anyway?
Hydra/roach army, sac lings constantly to scout, add corruptors if you see colo or more void rays.
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On January 28 2011 23:42 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 21:23 SubtleArt wrote:
The main reason Zerg players QQ so much is because its much much much much much (x100) times easier for a Zerg to lose to a player worse than him just cause he didn't scout something or misjudged a push by less that a minute. Doesn't help that Zerg early game scouting is tough.
Like yesteday I lost 3 ZvPs to the same build. Guy opens with 2 void rays. I'm busy defending them by getting spores and 4 queens. Meanwhile he's walled in his natural and has a stalker checking his perimeter so I don't know if he follows up with more void rays, adds another stargate, expands, or pushes. 3 opposite ways for me to react, each one I basically lose if I guess wrong. I had to sac 2 overlords to scout him, but I didn't see anything in his base. Turns out he proxied 4 warpgates and followed up with a huge push (yes, this happened 3 fking times =_=). I knew something was up and prepared for a push as well as the possibiity of more void rays but he just had way too many units considering I spent so much on 2 void rays.
I'm actually really comfortable with late game Zerg and my midgame is really solid vs all races if I can get there on even footing. Problem is its so fucking easy to die as Zerg Seems like you lost too much defending VRs. I mean it's pretty obvious you should have been going for a big hydra/roach ball during the mid game to not die. Isn't that how most ZvPs go anyway? Hydra/roach army, sac lings constantly to scout, add corruptors if you see colo or more void rays.
I lost 1 overlord in total to 2 void rays. I lost cause I had to spend so much money (6 spores, 4 queens) on a threat that wasn't there. I assumed he'd follow up with more void ray / phoenix which is what so many toss do. For that my response was totally correct but he just stopped after the second void ray and went 4 warpgate all in. I tried to scout but since he proxied it was pretty much a 50 / 50 guess what he would follow up with and I guessed wrong.
Also this has nothing to do with the midgame. Yes you make roach hydra corruptor but this is an all in that hits before my lair is even done. Like I said, ZvP in the midgame seems ok (still protoss favored, but its at least managable). Its just the early game tahts bullshit and all the different protoss all ins there are and how hard it is for zerg to accurately scout if toss is careful.
@ OP I find that almost all Protoss who suck vs Zerg have trouble because their understanding of timings and when to attack is off. If you don't attack when you're supposed to and let Zerg get a really good economy unhindered you're going to lose but you really shouldn't be letting this happen. Its like letting a brood war Zerg get 4 gas hive with double evo upgrades unharassed.
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I kinda do find that Zerg has an inherit weakness in the early game and its mainly due to the fact that we can't get anti-air units until lair, which is kind of a big deal. Queens by themselves are really a crapshoot against void rays/banshees on their own and generally you won't be able to scout a 1gate 1star rush or a 1/1/1 banshee rush until after you see the unit themselves, and building additional queens asap is still too slow because of the build time of queens.
I don't think this is too much of a deal though in ZvP as I find that if I go lair right after my queen pops and make a hydra den the moment my lair finishes I am generally able to fend off void ray rushes with minimal damage and this doesn't really deter from my desired tech tree so it all works out pretty seamlessly. ZvT is an issue though, since hydras are pretty much useless for everything except defending against banshees. But even then, I still do put down the hydra den when lair finishes if the Terran is doing a 1base build. It's just better to be safe than take the risk at this point.
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On January 28 2011 18:47 kerminator wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 14:30 travis wrote:
WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO? in WHAT DIMENSION IS THIS EASY? Watch a replay I dont get why you will insult zerg players because youre fucking awful at PvZ. There is so much bs in your post that i can say almost certainly that you have no understanding of the current metagame.. saying zerg can scout your base with speedlings... oh my god
where did I say zerg can scout your base with speedlings? and I never insulted zerg players. good job though, you clearly have high levels of reading comprehension.
also i like how this thread never goes away, hopefully it stays that way forever
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This is probably the best/funniest blogs I've read in awhile. And I'm a zerg player. People's responses make me lol.
It's a good thing people love using sweeping generalizations of entire groups of people...makes for much better blogs.
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On January 28 2011 17:18 kyarisan wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 17:07 blade55555 wrote:On January 27 2011 03:13 travis wrote:On January 27 2011 03:01 Chibalicious wrote:
No, you are the one not getting what (smart) zergs complain about; that they have to blind counter, rely on good map positions and in other ways flip a coin to win in any match up. It is frustrating as hell to lose to luck and not to skill.
protoss players have to deal with the exact same shit sometimes... what you're saying is soooo one sided. do you think cross position metal is easy pvz? or that you can't lose to bad luck when the zerg pumps mass speedlings then waits until you move to to the tower, surrounds you, and kills everything? Are you not making enough sentries? Cause pure speedling when a toss has sentries is just lol watch as you try to engage and he ff's and your lings can't even tough his army (don't even count when he traps half of your zerglings). I dunno why you would move out so early anyway if pure speeding is gonna beat you just stay on 2 base get sentry/colossi/stalker/zealot while expanding zergs not gonna break you lol just not possible if you use forcefields correctly. the problem is that you have NO FUCKING IDEA whether he is making like 60 zerglings or not, and you wont be able to know as long as a scouting probe gets sniped by speedlings as it tries to escape the protoss natural. speedlings literally shutdown scouting unless you happen to scout with your whole army which might not even be big enough to deal with that many zerglings. and then you also have to deal with the issue of his zerglings doing a massive run-by as your army leaves, running away to safety before your slow ass sentries can make their way back to the nexus. are you seriously so blinded by your bias that you didnt even understand what you responded to?
Rofl get 1 collosus and those speedlings are literally useless
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On January 29 2011 04:37 SubtleArt wrote:Show nested quote +On January 28 2011 17:18 kyarisan wrote:On January 28 2011 17:07 blade55555 wrote:On January 27 2011 03:13 travis wrote:On January 27 2011 03:01 Chibalicious wrote:
No, you are the one not getting what (smart) zergs complain about; that they have to blind counter, rely on good map positions and in other ways flip a coin to win in any match up. It is frustrating as hell to lose to luck and not to skill.
protoss players have to deal with the exact same shit sometimes... what you're saying is soooo one sided. do you think cross position metal is easy pvz? or that you can't lose to bad luck when the zerg pumps mass speedlings then waits until you move to to the tower, surrounds you, and kills everything? Are you not making enough sentries? Cause pure speedling when a toss has sentries is just lol watch as you try to engage and he ff's and your lings can't even tough his army (don't even count when he traps half of your zerglings). I dunno why you would move out so early anyway if pure speeding is gonna beat you just stay on 2 base get sentry/colossi/stalker/zealot while expanding zergs not gonna break you lol just not possible if you use forcefields correctly. the problem is that you have NO FUCKING IDEA whether he is making like 60 zerglings or not, and you wont be able to know as long as a scouting probe gets sniped by speedlings as it tries to escape the protoss natural. speedlings literally shutdown scouting unless you happen to scout with your whole army which might not even be big enough to deal with that many zerglings. and then you also have to deal with the issue of his zerglings doing a massive run-by as your army leaves, running away to safety before your slow ass sentries can make their way back to the nexus. are you seriously so blinded by your bias that you didnt even understand what you responded to? Rofl get 1 collosus and those speedlings are literally useless
this is such a stupid thing to say
like, just amazingly stupid, for multiple reasons
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As someone who has played both Protoss and Zerg, I find the match up to be pretty well balanced to be honest. :/
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i like this thread, 5/5 OP
i never remember zerg being this whiny in BW, I think idra may be a bad influence on people
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Ugh ...
"i can't believe how much zerg whine"
"I seriously win like 1 out of 3 pvz, it's by far my worst matchup, and most protoss i know say it's hard too."
"ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME. YOU HAVE OVERLORDS AND SPEEDLINGS. PROTOSS CAN'T SCOUT YOU AT ALL UNTIL HALLUCINATION OR OBSERVERS."
"seriously, the only way i ever win is by not engaging until I have a ridiculous army and then hoping the zerg wasn't good enough to take every base on the map in the mean time."
"this rant was brought to you by me losing pretty much every pvz i've had for my last 20 pvz or so."
"First class, yo this is bad, drinking orange juice out of a champagne glass is this what the people of Bel-Air livin' like, hmm this might be alright!"
"I whistled for a cab and when it came near the licensplate said "Fresh" and had a dice in the mirror if anything I could say that this cab was rare but I thought now forget it, yo home to Bel-Air"
"I pulled up to a house about seven or eight and I yelled to the cabby "Yo, home smell you later" looked at my kingdom I was finally there to settle my throne as the prince of Bel-Air"
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Whatever. You spend half your OP complaining about how much zergs complain, the other half complaining about how unfair and difficult PvZ is because you are bad at it.
I'm unimpressed. Honestly this thread hasn't been closed solely because of your position in the TL hierarchy of post count/join date. I think you're an awesome poster most of the time, but this sucks dude. Why go there?
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On January 29 2011 06:34 Lexpar wrote:
Whatever. You spend half your OP complaining about how much zergs complain, the other half complaining about how unfair and difficult PvZ is because you are bad at it.
I'm unimpressed. Honestly this thread hasn't been closed solely because of your position in the TL hierarchy of post count/join date. I think you're an awesome poster most of the time, but this sucks dude. Why go there?
ugh
I never said zerg was unfair! You don't understand the OP at all!
I am saying that protoss players can make the exact kind of complaints that zerg players make. When did I say there was anything unfair about it??
do you not get how annoying it is to have every other zerg i talk to say "pvz is so easy"? as I lose over and over? It's not that easy.
I don't tell zergs that zvp is easy, and I never complain about the matchup being imbalanced, DESPITE having incredible troubles with it.
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Honestly zergs do complain alot. Actually, every race complains alot. It's sort of sad. Like I was saying to this terran, "Hey, promise to both do macro game?" He does, he ends up losing. But he made several mistakes, such as not having enough turrets, not seiging in time, so forth. And at the end, he doesn't say "gg" or anything, he just says "This is why no one plays macro games vs zerg."
But you just need to look at Jinro, MvP, Mihai(from Catz from Mihai showmatch), and see that macro is possible.
I mean, on a constant basis, over half of my games I get all ined. I get 2 rax scv all-in'd, I get four gated, I get 6 pooled, I get thor rushed, I get 3 gate void ray rushed. And I get pissed off. I get annoyed that because they feel they can't "compete" in a macro game, they all in. Because they cry "imbalance."
Yet I never get mad at the races, or cry imbalance. I get mad at the players for doing that, and mad at myself for not stopping it. Until I'm the best player in the world, and still losing games, I have no ability to say that imbalance played any more of a factor than my mistakes in the game.
I just feel that's a general problem now. Instead of actively trying to figure out "how do I beat this build" we just end up posting on TL saying how OP it is.
Anyway, just my two cents.
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On January 29 2011 07:54 Pandain wrote:
Honestly zergs do complain alot. Actually, every race complains alot. It's sort of sad. Like I was saying to this terran, "Hey, promise to both do macro game?" He does, he ends up losing. But he made several mistakes, such as not having enough turrets, not seiging in time, so forth. And at the end, he doesn't say "gg" or anything, he just says "This is why no one plays macro games vs zerg."
But you just need to look at Jinro, MvP, Mihai(from Catz from Mihai showmatch), and see that macro is possible.
I mean, on a constant basis, over half of my games I get all ined. I get 2 rax scv all-in'd, I get four gated, I get 6 pooled, I get thor rushed, I get 3 gate void ray rushed. And I get pissed off. I get annoyed that because they feel they can't "compete" in a macro game, they all in. Because they cry "imbalance."
Yet I never get mad at the races, or cry imbalance. I get mad at the players for doing that, and mad at myself for not stopping it. Until I'm the best player in the world, and still losing games, I have no ability to say that imbalance played any more of a factor than my mistakes in the game.
I just feel that's a general problem now. Instead of actively trying to figure out "how do I beat this build" we just end up posting on TL saying how OP it is.
Anyway, just my two cents.
Well all races complain the same about their macro and unit strength, you just gotta accept that some people like to think they lost cause the game is unfair not cause they suck (not to say everythings fine with the game, but most complaints are knee jerk reactions to a losing streak). Reason you see Zerg complain more is because on top of that, Zerg is also really vulnerable to bullshit all in builds and even pressure --> expand builds. Like I said a few posts up, its really easy for a good zerg to lose to a bad protoss but not vice versa.
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On January 26 2011 14:30 travis wrote:
I forge expand scrap station? they baneling bust.
I forge expand to void ray shakuras? nydus in my base i barely fail to stop it lings stream in there goes my main.
I try to hard 4gate? fast roach and lings.
I play 3gate sentry expand on metalopolis? Guy outmacros me off his 2 bases and uses the wide area around the expansion to repeatedly attack me and i can't hold it.
I go 2gate robo? Opponent goes mass speedlings into muta. WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO? in WHAT DIMENSION IS THIS EASY?
Should have forcefields/canons up in time to stop this.
Should have bldgs/units around to easily stop nydus. 5-6 Probes can kill a nydus easily before it finishes.
4gate is all in but hard to read, I'd say it's got a greater than 50% chance to win vs most Z . Even when read, there sometimes just isn't much you can do if you already made too many drones, or the stalker force moves out and caps a few overlords.
when toss gets up 2nd base they can basically afford to get colosus/storm while still taking a 3rd with canons and shit.
not sure about the last one.
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What about this?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=167992
Putting stress on:
On November 11 2010 01:05 sleepingdog wrote:
I can't stress enough how CRITICAL it is to get the timings right. NEXGenius lost a game vs Leenock on Metalopolis (into ragequit lol) because he started retreating his 2 initial stalkers just a few seconds too late. I think the user "Friend23" or sth like that posted the timings some days ago, if you scout the gas you have about 3:15 ingame until you are up against speedlings.
To extend my thoughts from there: I think you should emphazise more that the scouting of the gas early on is THE most aspect in the whole PvZ early game matchup. Of course you will scout for early expo..duh..that's standard. But many fail to realize how important it is to scout how early zerg goes for gas.
Because if he does NOT go for early gas this means he intends to play economicly greedy and you HAVE to do "something" or get outmacroed like roflwhat.
Opposed to this, if you see early gas you can play it more safe (zealot/sentry-expand) because zerg sacrifices mineral-mining in order to get "something" that isn't a drone. Be it speedlings, be it roach, it won't matter much because it means that you can now play it more safely. A 3 gate sentry-expand should do fine if zerg goes for fast(er) speedlings and also does very fine vs any sort of standard 2 hatch roach play (as seen from Nony vs Idra, where Nony stomped over Idra's roach-push-attempt close positions on lost temple).
I mean
+ Show Spoiler +On January 27 2011 02:54 travis wrote:
Lots of you are too stupid to get it, I'm saying that pvz is plenty hard this isn't a one sided affair. If I am losing to players because I don't play well enough (which is probably the case), then that is totally fine. My point is that it's NOT AT ALL EASY.
As for the people who responded to me "there is nothing protoss would need to scout until hallucination anyways", that's absolute bullshit. There's been so many pvzs where if I had 4gated I would have won the game, but instead I 3gate sentry expand and wait for hallucination, then I watch the replay and until I had hallucination they literally made only drones with their 4 speedlings outside my ramp preventing a probe from leaving.
the reason i made this rage blog isn't because im losing pvz. it's because im losing pvz AND meanwhile every other zerg on the planet, both better than me and worse than me, is complaining about how imbalanced and hard the matchup is for them.
What results does early Stalker pressure give you?
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I tend to go stalker pressure if zerg doesn't early gas. If they do I tend to 3gate sentry expand w/ hallu.
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On January 29 2011 04:39 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On January 29 2011 04:37 SubtleArt wrote:On January 28 2011 17:18 kyarisan wrote:On January 28 2011 17:07 blade55555 wrote:On January 27 2011 03:13 travis wrote:On January 27 2011 03:01 Chibalicious wrote:
No, you are the one not getting what (smart) zergs complain about; that they have to blind counter, rely on good map positions and in other ways flip a coin to win in any match up. It is frustrating as hell to lose to luck and not to skill.
protoss players have to deal with the exact same shit sometimes... what you're saying is soooo one sided. do you think cross position metal is easy pvz? or that you can't lose to bad luck when the zerg pumps mass speedlings then waits until you move to to the tower, surrounds you, and kills everything? Are you not making enough sentries? Cause pure speedling when a toss has sentries is just lol watch as you try to engage and he ff's and your lings can't even tough his army (don't even count when he traps half of your zerglings). I dunno why you would move out so early anyway if pure speeding is gonna beat you just stay on 2 base get sentry/colossi/stalker/zealot while expanding zergs not gonna break you lol just not possible if you use forcefields correctly. the problem is that you have NO FUCKING IDEA whether he is making like 60 zerglings or not, and you wont be able to know as long as a scouting probe gets sniped by speedlings as it tries to escape the protoss natural. speedlings literally shutdown scouting unless you happen to scout with your whole army which might not even be big enough to deal with that many zerglings. and then you also have to deal with the issue of his zerglings doing a massive run-by as your army leaves, running away to safety before your slow ass sentries can make their way back to the nexus. are you seriously so blinded by your bias that you didnt even understand what you responded to? Rofl get 1 collosus and those speedlings are literally useless this is such a stupid thing to say like, just amazingly stupid, for multiple reasons
give me 2 reasons?
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reason #1:
by the time u have a collossus, the issue of speedlings surrounding you is moot. it doesn't matter anymore. it's far, far too late to matter.
reason #2:
the entire point was that u don't know the speedlings were there. u can't prepare for something that you aren't aware of.
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On January 26 2011 14:39 Megaliskuu wrote:
god damn, seriously. i can't believe how much protoss whine. especially about pvz. I seriously win like 1 out of 3 zvp, it's by far my worst matchup, and most zerg i know say it's hard too. I am by no means a bad player, zvp is NOT easy. lately I've even had these fucking protoss complaining about roaches during the game AND THEN THEY BEAT ME.
the worst is protoss complaining about how hard it is to scout. ARE YOU FUCKING KIDDING ME. YOU HAVE HALUCINATIONS AND CLOAKED DETECTORS. ZERG CAN'T SCOUT YOU AT ALL ONCE A STALKER IS OUT WITHOUT SACRIFICING AN OVERLORD.
god, seriously, it's so fucking ridiculous. what is it about zvp im not understanding? seriously, the only way i ever win is by not engaging until I have a ridiculous army and then hoping the protoss wasn't good enough to attack with his 2 base death ball.
this rant was brought to you by me losing pretty much every zvp i've had for my last 20 zvp or so. I 14 hatch on scrap station? they cannon rush. I speedling expand on shakuras? warp prism 4 gate in my base i barely fail to stop it zealot stream in there goes my nat. I try to hard roach rush? sentries and cannons. I play muta on metalopolis? Guy 1a's uses the wide area around the expansion to repeatedly attack me and i can't hold it. I go drone heavy? Opponent goes mass gateway units into collosus. I go one of the 3 builds zerg has? Protoss uses one of the 20 they have. WHAT AM I SUPPOSED TO DO? in WHAT DIMENSION IS THIS EASY?
This about sums up my feelings too.
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EPT
