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On January 26 2011 17:59 Trowabarton756 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 26 2011 17:52 Dali. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 17:23 Trowabarton756 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 26 2011 17:15 Dali. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 16:57 Trowabarton756 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On January 26 2011 16:35 Dali. wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 16:21 Trowabarton756 wrote:On January 26 2011 15:43 Dali. wrote:
My issue with PvZ comes in the form of this build. My opponent opens 3 gate expand into 6 gate pressure then dual robo collosus. He then takes a safe third and disallows me to multi-prong attack with roaches/lings. Then throws down some stargates, pump voids and maxs while getting neccesary ups (attack, defense and blink), he is more or less unkillable and forces me to engage an uber-death ball which i must trade a huge roach army while sniping collosus/voids then remax immediately on roaches and ensure I don't lose my exterior mining bases which are key once I spend my resource surplus. If I beat his army, its gg and pumping hive units ensures. However, any mistake while doing this I face death. I feel that there are very few windows to hit the protoss without mutas (which are difficult to justify considering the strength of 2 base gate way pushes). While there are many windows where he can hit me and do massive damage if I deviate from a roach/corrupter army.
Perhaps their are other approaches I need to investigate, put personally, this is the most solid/safe way to play I have found. Hopefully I can find an answer somewhere, but I'm struggling.
I think Zerg should be frustrated with the state of the game. We feel unable to execute pressure while remaining in control of a strong economy and a safe fall back if we don't succeed in doing damage. All the while, we walk a very thin line in engagements where we are almost guaranteed to lose fights or key positions if we allow the P or T to gain a foot hold near us: Think seige tanks guarded with minimal flanking positions while rines can continually poke at us (Shakuras rock guarded pathway between bases is a good example) or a Protoss ball that makes its way into an enclosed space near an expansion where forcefields gain maximum effectiveness. Being a reactive race, we usually need time to pump a final round of units when we see a push, so with short rush distances, it is really difficult to stall an opponents movement towards an advantages position without huge sacrifices.
Im sorry all I heard was blah blah blah I don't know how to play. You think starcraft was so easily figured out? For fucks sake people it took about 8 years before 3hatch muta->5 hatch hydra even came about and then another ~1.5 years before Protoss finally have a reasonable counter to it(corsair/zealot midgame push into storm/corsair/archons/reaver/zealot/goon). Fucking you shouldn't feel frustrated and instead you should be finding protoss practice partners and ironing out your builds/strategies. So fucking sick of this god damn whine bull shit. Seriously? I was simply outlining a few reasons why Zerg players have felt hard done by. I wasn't intending to whine, just placing my perspective as a Zerg player on why there is a trend of QQ from my race. Time spent QQing would be better spent practicing. But anyways, you're acting like an idiot and presented nothing of interest other than whine yourself. Manner up. Lol? Every race has its problems, there is nothing to "feel hard done by". Don't like it, switch races. The problem I am referring to (lack of ability to be effectively aggressive) is one which is plagued many Zerg players and is the source of many feelings of unbalance/unfairness in race design. But if nothing changes, I will just stomach it and continue to improve under the circumstances. ... don't zergs have like 6/7pool and 7rr? That's pretty aggressive, see the "effective" part is what you make of it. There shouldn't be 1 build that you can just let the AI "effectively" be aggressive, it should rely on the player's micro/macro/timing abilities, you're essentially asking for free wins. Are you honestly suggesting that 6/7pool and 7rr are reasonable aggressive openings? I am talking about safe aggression, see: 2 rax, see non-allin 4 gates, banshee openings, hellion openings, phoenix openings. These are all things that allow a Terran and Protoss safe "in-zerg's-face" openings while maintaining a level of reasonable safety and macro follow up. These openings work well especially because they can be easily hidden with correct patrolling and know the standard timings for overlord float bys. However a roach rush is very transparent on any map without a back door nat. It seems pretty evident that they are not verty effective considering how infrequently they have been seen in any state of professional play. there is no such thing as safe aggression, 4-gate albeit "economical" is still 4-gates...on 1 base, meaning you have very little opportunity to tech or expand unless you skip units... as far as 2-rax clearly Z is underpowered considering 90% of terrans in the last GSL have scv/marine all-in'd like crazy with the reasoning being that zerg is unstoppable late-game. you either get a defensive build or a offensive build, you never get both.
This is clearly untrue. The investment that a zerg must make in the early game, that of an expansion, simply means that aggression, especially 2 rax, is a reasonable safe way to open as there is no aggressive follow up which isn't effectively an all in, at least not aggression with any immediacy, earliest effective aggression exists in the Kyrix style. I will concede that 4 gate is most often an all in, but the others I mentioned were usually safe, assuming enough attention is paid to the essential units that control the Zerg in such a way to allow safe economic follow up.
I would argue that Protoss late game is actually far stronger and that was what I was arguing before. That the Zerg has a very difficult time stopping that late game progression. As for Terran late game, I do not believe it has been sufficiently explored as most Terrans have elected to play some form of 1 base or 2 base all ins in ZvT. Oh well, we shall see what the future brings.
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Having played a lot of both races, I can safely say that Toss has infinitely better scouting capabilities than Zerg do. I never found myself struggling to know what my opponent was doing while playing Protoss, but it's a common theme in Zerg games.
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On January 26 2011 18:36 Ezekyle wrote:
Having played a lot of both races, I can safely say that Toss has infinitely better scouting capabilities than Zerg do. I never found myself struggling to know what my opponent was doing while playing Protoss, but it's a common theme in Zerg games.
Having played a lot of both races, you can safely say that ALL ZERG AND PROTOSS PLAYERS ACROSS ALL LEVELS EXPERIENCE THE SAME KIND OF GAMES YOU DO?
God where does this arrogance come from? It's so ridiculous.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
The race which has the most reactive tendencies will invariably be the race that being moan about playing the most. It was like this in BW as well (Protoss against Zerg, Zerg against Terran, Terran against Protoss) and is still true in SC2 (Zerg against Terran, Zerg against Protoss, Protoss against Terran). That's all there is to it imo.
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Zergs whine so much because the most vocal people out there are saying how zerg is UP and every other race is OP to the max.
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On January 26 2011 19:22 FlashIsHigh wrote:
Zergs whine so much because the most vocal people out there are saying how zerg is UP and every other race is OP to the max.
1. You say zerg whiners are vocal, but maybe they are the most vocal because their race needs emergency fixing?
2. Maybe you hear more about Zerg whining because there are more players who also feel that Zerg needs fixing
3. No one said Protoss is OP, community still thinks Terran is OP
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On January 26 2011 19:16 Plexa wrote:
The race which has the most reactive tendencies will invariably be the race that being moan about playing the most. It was like this in BW as well (Protoss against Zerg, Zerg against Terran, Terran against Protoss) and is still true in SC2 (Zerg against Terran, Zerg against Protoss, Protoss against Terran). That's all there is to it imo.
yeah well at least there was a triangle of imbalance in bw >_>;; whenever zergies get owned by terran we can at least go pick on protosses to make ourselves feel better. Can't say the same for this game lol
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On January 26 2011 17:22 Sfydjklm wrote:
The real problem most zergs are facing are not imbalances, but the lack of inspiration, the lack of heroes, the lack of victorious zergs that can give you motivation. It's like being a person of color in the early years of post segregated america. While you seem to have all the rights you need to be great on paper there is still a lack of observable success, and the same kind of hopeless feeling of being cornered.
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What?
NesTea is one of the greatest players in the world right now, and won GSL2.
FruitDealer was an absolute hero for zerg, and won GSL1. IdrA is arguably the most famous (and, IMO, the best) foreign SC2 player.
I know Zergs aren't doing well in other tournaments besides the GSL, but thats not the point here. Think about how inspired zergs were when FruitDealer crushed everyone in GSL1.
Zerg have the MOST heroes and inspiration out of any race. I really don't see how you think they're lacking. =/
How could any zerg not be inspired by FruitDealer's tribute video? Protoss don't have any videos like that. *whine*
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On January 26 2011 19:41 5unrise wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 19:16 Plexa wrote:
The race which has the most reactive tendencies will invariably be the race that being moan about playing the most. It was like this in BW as well (Protoss against Zerg, Zerg against Terran, Terran against Protoss) and is still true in SC2 (Zerg against Terran, Zerg against Protoss, Protoss against Terran). That's all there is to it imo. yeah well at least there was a triangle of imbalance in bw >_>;; whenever zergies get owned by terran we can at least go pick on protosses to make ourselves feel better. Can't say the same for this game lol
I am amazed how people are able to twist every post into imbalance / balance talk. He was talking about races moaning because they are the reactive race in the match up which has pretty much nothing to do with balance. Imo it's getting quite ridiculous that nearly every post is filled with imbalance '/ balance talk and I am getting quite sick of it.
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On January 26 2011 20:40 Moonloop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 17:22 Sfydjklm wrote:
The real problem most zergs are facing are not imbalances, but the lack of inspiration, the lack of heroes, the lack of victorious zergs that can give you motivation. It's like being a person of color in the early years of post segregated america. While you seem to have all the rights you need to be great on paper there is still a lack of observable success, and the same kind of hopeless feeling of being cornered.
. What? NesTea is one of the greatest players in the world right now, and won GSL2. FruitDealer was an absolute hero for zerg, and won GSL1. IdrA is arguably the most famous (and, IMO, the best) foreign SC2 player. I know Zergs aren't doing well in other tournaments besides the GSL, but thats not the point here. Think about how inspired zergs were when FruitDealer crushed everyone in GSL1. Zerg have the MOST heroes and inspiration out of any race. I really don't see how you think they're lacking. =/ How could any zerg not be inspired by FruitDealer's tribute video? Protoss don't have any videos like that. *whine*
Yes but that was in season 2 of GSL.
Forever ago.
Besides at some point you realize you can never be as good as Nestea and all you want is the knowledge that it's a fair game and your race is capable of winning at any bracket of skill.
A conviction that zerg's are deprived of.
Also never really was impressed by FD's GSL 1 victory. His opponents in the last rounds played like shit. I was more impressed by his post GSL 1 play both wins and losses alike he played phenomenal.
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Why not play a balanced game then?
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On January 26 2011 20:56 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 20:40 Moonloop wrote:On January 26 2011 17:22 Sfydjklm wrote:
The real problem most zergs are facing are not imbalances, but the lack of inspiration, the lack of heroes, the lack of victorious zergs that can give you motivation. It's like being a person of color in the early years of post segregated america. While you seem to have all the rights you need to be great on paper there is still a lack of observable success, and the same kind of hopeless feeling of being cornered.
. What? NesTea is one of the greatest players in the world right now, and won GSL2. FruitDealer was an absolute hero for zerg, and won GSL1. IdrA is arguably the most famous (and, IMO, the best) foreign SC2 player. I know Zergs aren't doing well in other tournaments besides the GSL, but thats not the point here. Think about how inspired zergs were when FruitDealer crushed everyone in GSL1. Zerg have the MOST heroes and inspiration out of any race. I really don't see how you think they're lacking. =/ How could any zerg not be inspired by FruitDealer's tribute video? Protoss don't have any videos like that. *whine* Yes but that was in season 2 of GSL. Forever ago. Besides at some point you realize you can never be as good as Nestea and all you want is the knowledge that it's a fair game and your race is capable of winning at any bracket of skill. A conviction that zerg's are deprived of. Also never really was impressed by FD's GSL 1 victory. His opponents in the last rounds played like shit. I was more impressed by his post GSL 1 play both wins and losses alike he played phenomenal.
That's your opinion though - you also said 'most zergs' in your original post. I would argue that 'most zergs' were inspired by FruitDealer's win. I know Rainbow played terribly, but still - FruitDealer was just better than all his opponents, and won the most prestigious SC2 tournament at a time when zergs were weakest.
Maybe you're not personally inspired by the people I named, but I think many players are. I can see where you're coming from, and I agree that Zerg is weak at the moment, but I stand by my opinion that of all three races, Zerg have the most heroes.
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A good protoss is virtually impossible to attack at any early/mid stage not to mention how hard it is to scout until you have overseers or ovie speed, up to which time P can keep any rush or tech they want secret. Every drone made at this point is a risk. In fact every drone past 19 drones is a risk of death to any random timing.
The reason zergs are sad is because we play in fear and we are easily beat by lower skilled players for the longest time until we learn a books worth of knowledge compared to a pamphlet for protoss.
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On January 26 2011 21:28 Adeeler wrote:
A good protoss is virtually impossible to attack at any early/mid stage not to mention how hard it is to scout until you have overseers or ovie speed, up to which time P can keep any rush or tech they want secret. Every drone made at this point is a risk. In fact every drone past 19 drones is a risk of death to any random timing.
The reason zergs are sad is because we play in fear and we are easily beat by lower skilled players for the longest time until we learn a books worth of knowledge compared to a pamphlet for protoss.
holy shit this post is bad
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On January 26 2011 21:24 Moonloop wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 20:56 Sfydjklm wrote:On January 26 2011 20:40 Moonloop wrote:On January 26 2011 17:22 Sfydjklm wrote:
The real problem most zergs are facing are not imbalances, but the lack of inspiration, the lack of heroes, the lack of victorious zergs that can give you motivation. It's like being a person of color in the early years of post segregated america. While you seem to have all the rights you need to be great on paper there is still a lack of observable success, and the same kind of hopeless feeling of being cornered.
. What? NesTea is one of the greatest players in the world right now, and won GSL2. FruitDealer was an absolute hero for zerg, and won GSL1. IdrA is arguably the most famous (and, IMO, the best) foreign SC2 player. I know Zergs aren't doing well in other tournaments besides the GSL, but thats not the point here. Think about how inspired zergs were when FruitDealer crushed everyone in GSL1. Zerg have the MOST heroes and inspiration out of any race. I really don't see how you think they're lacking. =/ How could any zerg not be inspired by FruitDealer's tribute video? Protoss don't have any videos like that. *whine* Yes but that was in season 2 of GSL. Forever ago. Besides at some point you realize you can never be as good as Nestea and all you want is the knowledge that it's a fair game and your race is capable of winning at any bracket of skill. A conviction that zerg's are deprived of. Also never really was impressed by FD's GSL 1 victory. His opponents in the last rounds played like shit. I was more impressed by his post GSL 1 play both wins and losses alike he played phenomenal. That's your opinion though - you also said 'most zergs' in your original post. I would argue that 'most zergs' were inspired by FruitDealer's win. I know Rainbow played terribly, but still - FruitDealer was just better than all his opponents, and won the most prestigious SC2 tournament at a time when zergs were weakest. Maybe you're not personally inspired by the people I named, but I think many players are. I can see where you're coming from, and I agree that Zerg is weak at the moment, but I stand by my opinion that of all three races, Zerg have the most heroes.
I'm not arguing with what you said. I am saying that GSL 2 was forever ago and bottom line is GSL S1 and 2 are now irrelevant. It just the nature of time and it's pointless to argue.
And tbh WhiteRa is a bigger hero then pretty much anyone else in esports
Man if Dimaga was winning i think there would be a lot less complaining going on. Being a hero is not just about winning its about the attitude too. A few weeks ago BratOk said that Dimaga was "depressed" about the current zerg situation and hence not performing well. I mean i dunno how liberal his use of the word was in that case but thinking about how severe something has to be to make someone as ridiculously positive as Dimaga depressed makes me depressed
I
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sry wrong thread
(shoulda been pm)
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My buddy at work who plays toss also whines hardcore about zerg.
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On January 26 2011 19:16 Plexa wrote:
The race which has the most reactive tendencies will invariably be the race that being moan about playing the most. It was like this in BW as well (Protoss against Zerg, Zerg against Terran, Terran against Protoss) and is still true in SC2 (Zerg against Terran, Zerg against Protoss, Protoss against Terran). That's all there is to it imo.
Hahaha so true. I'm just glad Protoss isn't in the "Imba" spotlight as it was in BW.
People should love it or leave it imo. If you are not enjoying the game because your race is too hard and you lose too much, CHANGE your fucking race. As long as you are playing a video game as just a game and not as a job, if you're not enjoying the game, chances are you're playing it wrong (Edit: or it may not be the game for you; go play some farmville).
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On January 26 2011 19:16 Plexa wrote:
The race which has the most reactive tendencies will invariably be the race that being moan about playing the most. It was like this in BW as well (Protoss against Zerg, Zerg against Terran, Terran against Protoss) and is still true in SC2 (Zerg against Terran, Zerg against Protoss, Protoss against Terran). That's all there is to it imo.
This guy speaks truth. In case those of you who don't understand or totally missed it, let me elaborate.
Reactive tendencies are basically, in a non-mirror match-up, the race that has to play reactively (the races survival or tech choices depend on scouting information). The race that adjusts their build orders/defense to a certain races opener is playing reactively. And if this adjustment is incorrect (your read on the opponent) then there is a very very very high chance the reactive player loses.
For example, back in BW (where all the rage and complaining happens originates in each matchup):
ZvT = Zerg is most reactive (I'm NOT saying that Terran doesn't have to be reactive but Plexa says 'MOST' reactive). Terran has a ton a openers where a zerg has to react to. Bunker rushes, 1rax CC, 14CC, 2port Wraith, a bunch of 3-4rax timings, mech play, vulture harass, etc.
TvP = Terran is most reactive. Protoss has a bunch of openers including(not too sure, my knowledge only extends to watching, as I played Zerg in both BW and Sc2): DTs, Dragoon pressure, Storm drops, Shuttle/Reaver, 14 Nexus, proxy gateways, Arbiter recalls, etc. It's up to the Terran to play defensive and deflect these options.
PvZ = Protoss is most reactive. Lurker slow drops, Hydra busts, 5 hatch hydra into Muta templar snipe, Zergling run-bys, etc.
Back in BW, you have this trifecta of Zerg, Terran and Protoss tears.
Now in SC2, I'm not sure about the Protoss/Terran matchup, as all I hear most are imba storms/imba marines/marauder timing pushes, but in the Zerg Matchups, Zerg is reactive in both; therefore, soooo many Zerg tears everywhere.
ZvP = Zerg is most reactive. This is solely due to one single reason I think. It's because of the easy of walling in for the protoss. Walling in + Warp Ins basically means Zerg MUST play reactive as protoss can 4gate, blink stalker timing on nat, 3gate expand, proxy gates, etc.
ZvT = Zerg is most reactive again. I think this matchup is quite similar to BW so not going to comment much on it (in the sense of stylistics). 2port banshee, blue flame hellion drop, makarax, 2rax, 1rax expo, stim timing attack, marauder/hellion, scv/marine allin, etc.
That is the reason why Zergs are crying outta control. If you're playing protoss and you're losing a lot to zerg for some reason, you should definitely focus on denying the Zerg information. If you're good at being deceptive, hiding information and confusing the Zerg, you'll have much higher chance of success. If you're one dimensional, doing the same build, and not making a real effort to deny information from the zerg, the zerg will just react to it properly and you'll be in a world of pain against a zerg who is better than you. If you denied information from the Zerg and you still end up losing then most likely the zerg just blindly countered you and, more often than not, you should come out ahead or win the game.
Also, I believe this is the reason why beginners or players new to SC are having such a hard time playing Zerg at the lower levels. Playing reactively requires so much experience and game sense that it is infuriating for a new Zerg to lose to a 4gate which takes plenty practice to see and correctly respond to. This is quite the opposite where a protoss can just practice the 4gate and still end up winning a large number of games.
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On January 26 2011 21:47 Sfydjklm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 26 2011 21:24 Moonloop wrote:On January 26 2011 20:56 Sfydjklm wrote:On January 26 2011 20:40 Moonloop wrote:On January 26 2011 17:22 Sfydjklm wrote:
The real problem most zergs are facing are not imbalances, but the lack of inspiration, the lack of heroes, the lack of victorious zergs that can give you motivation. It's like being a person of color in the early years of post segregated america. While you seem to have all the rights you need to be great on paper there is still a lack of observable success, and the same kind of hopeless feeling of being cornered.
. What? NesTea is one of the greatest players in the world right now, and won GSL2. FruitDealer was an absolute hero for zerg, and won GSL1. IdrA is arguably the most famous (and, IMO, the best) foreign SC2 player. I know Zergs aren't doing well in other tournaments besides the GSL, but thats not the point here. Think about how inspired zergs were when FruitDealer crushed everyone in GSL1. Zerg have the MOST heroes and inspiration out of any race. I really don't see how you think they're lacking. =/ How could any zerg not be inspired by FruitDealer's tribute video? Protoss don't have any videos like that. *whine* Yes but that was in season 2 of GSL. Forever ago. Besides at some point you realize you can never be as good as Nestea and all you want is the knowledge that it's a fair game and your race is capable of winning at any bracket of skill. A conviction that zerg's are deprived of. Also never really was impressed by FD's GSL 1 victory. His opponents in the last rounds played like shit. I was more impressed by his post GSL 1 play both wins and losses alike he played phenomenal. That's your opinion though - you also said 'most zergs' in your original post. I would argue that 'most zergs' were inspired by FruitDealer's win. I know Rainbow played terribly, but still - FruitDealer was just better than all his opponents, and won the most prestigious SC2 tournament at a time when zergs were weakest. Maybe you're not personally inspired by the people I named, but I think many players are. I can see where you're coming from, and I agree that Zerg is weak at the moment, but I stand by my opinion that of all three races, Zerg have the most heroes. I'm not arguing with what you said. I am saying that GSL 2 was forever ago and bottom line is GSL S1 and 2 are now irrelevant. It just the nature of time and it's pointless to argue. And tbh WhiteRa is a bigger hero then pretty much anyone else in esports Man if Dimaga was winning i think there would be a lot less complaining going on. Being a hero is not just about winning its about the attitude too. A few weeks ago BratOk said that Dimaga was "depressed" about the current zerg situation and hence not performing well. I mean i dunno how liberal his use of the word was in that case but thinking about how severe something has to be to make someone as ridiculously positive as Dimaga depressed makes me depressed I
lol
every high level english speaking zerg is on the brink of actual depression or a race switch
i wasnt kidding when i said i stopped practicing because the damage to my mental state was worse than lacking practice.
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EPT
