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This is a rant blog. You've been warned.
This is really kind of getting ridiculous. This forum's community has largely destroyed TL, in my opinion. I can't stand hanging around anywhere but the SC2 and BW strategy forums, blogs, and SC2 custom maps forum.
The BW general forum has become depressing. Every other article is something new about the whole Blizzard vs KeSPA thing or some other progamer retiring and/or going to SC2. Just by skimming through the titles, you can feel BW's pro scene's vitality slowly slipping away.
The SC2 general forum is absolutely terrible. There are so many idiot posters there. If there's some bad thread proposing some change to make the game even easier to play and thus make it a more "strategic" and "thinking" game, then it turns into a 20 page shitfest between the SC2 fanboys who've never played BW, and the BW fans like myself who can't help but speak out against such shortsightedness. Somehow, it even feels like the innocent threads with interviews or news articles in them end up with small little shitfests as well. It's ridiculous.
I'm going to talk about myself as a fan of StarCraft. I started following the pro scene in fall 2007 (pretty recent, I know). I'd started playing the game again with some of my Korean friends, who were fiercely competitive with one another over it. While playing with them, they showed me pro VODs. Then the GOM Star Invitational happened, and thanks to Tasteless, I found TL as well as the jon747 channel. This was when everything exploded. I was watching half a dozen VODs a day and started lurking on TL. God, remember the old TL front page? lol. It totally turned me off to the site for a while before I got used to it (mad props to everyone who made the new one possible way back when, btw).
Anyway, BW largely dominated my interest after that. I stopped following other sports and really just kept up with BW, even, lol. What's funny is that my parents didn't even mind, whenever I went back to stay with them. They could tell listening to the Korean commentating was improving my terrible Korean.
Then the bomb dropped: SC2.
I know how everyone felt when SC2 was announced. It was a mix of excitement, anticipation, and, most importantly, a surprise and severe disappointment that it wouldn't be a 3d port of Brood War.
The newer players coming in don't really seem to realize how important BW is to SC2, and just how important and foundational BW is to this community. It's really disappointing to see this community, which was built on BW, turn into one where any members at all would daresay BW should just die, or ignore the great influence of the game. Nazgul himself put it best in another thread:
On November 14 2010 12:23 Liquid`Nazgul wrote:
If you see people saying they want BW to just die let me know it's not a comment we appreciate on here. This site has built everything it is with BW for people to just come in and make comments like that is ridiculous.
I'll forgive his lack of punctuation for the frank truth in his words.
Despite that, I get replies back in threads calling me an old-timer who can't let go of the past and for not being able to let go of a ten-year-old game that's lived its course and is being succeeded by a superior game...
It's actually starting to get very irritating, so I'm going to spell out exactly why we always compare SC2 to BW.
For some on this side of the community, competitive level BW has been a part of their gaming lives for nearly ten years. Most probably went in and out of the scene. I've been following it for the past three years or so. It's an amazing game. I used to be a more or less avid gamer. But then BW made me stop playing other games. Even now, SC2 and watching BW VODs pretty much makes up the gaming aspect of my life.
There is no denying BW is a great game. It's lasted for ten years, has the most developed competitive scene of any game, even now, and is just an incredibly fun game no matter how you look at it. It's fun to play, and is apparently still fun to play even after ten years.
When SC2 was announced, there was at first quite a bit of excitement here at TL. Lots of new people came pouring in and the community, which had been pretty small, suddenly grew (I guess I'm part of this group, since I registered well after SC2 was announced). However, people quickly began to realize what the release of SC2 would mean. SC2 means, eventually, no more BW. SC2 is not just the sequel, but the successor to BW. It's the game that's somehow supposed to replace BW, and we see that slowly happening now.
Unfortunately, and rather tragically, there's really no stopping this. From what I've gathered, the BW community outside of Korea was dying, and it was only the announcement of SC2 that really revitalized foreign interest in BW. However, now that the game has actually been released, we're seeing all the players, even myself, stop playing BW and start playing SC2. Let's face it, it's a lot easier to play the game, and it's a hell of a lot easier to find matches (bnet2.0 matchmaking is amazing). Plus it's shiny.
Now we approach my big point: this is precisely why the BW camp is so critical of SC2. It's exactly, and for no other reason than, because SC2 is going to replace BW that we both hate it so much and want it to succeed so badly. It HAS to be as good as BW. No old BW fan loves SC2 yet. It hasn't been out long enough. It's a good and fun game, so we like it. On the other hand, we love BW. When we argue against the SC2 fanboys in those terrible SC2 general shitfests, we're arguing for implementing into SC2 the things that set BW apart and made it great. Sure, we can't just port over the entire game, but we can hope the other things that made it great can make SC2 great as well.
SC2 has a lot riding on it. Every major game reviewer out there mentions this in their articles. They all talk about the big shoes SC2 has to fill, being the next generation of BW. One review I read even went as far as to say that SC2 will never have the lasting impact and influence BW had. BW was just that big. + Show Spoiler +(This is probably why I (and probably we all) are so hostile to the SC2 fanboy camp - to be honest, it's borderline offensive to be told off by a bunch of kids who've never extensively played BW about how SC2 should play...)
If SC2 doesn't end up lasting for ten years before getting killed off by the announcement of SC3, it will truly be a tragedy. It will not only be the death of a decent game (from what my early impressions of the game have told me), but it will have taken BW with it.
SC2 is, whether any of us like it or not, set to be the new BW. BW is going to die. KeSPA is at the breaking point. I can't even delude myself into thinking there will be an '11-'12 proleague. MSL is done and who knows how many more OSLs there will be.
And so, as an avid BW fan, let me just go ahead and say that StarCraft 2 had better end up being a worthy replacement to BW, and not just be a decent game in and of itself.
Mini-rant.+ Show Spoiler + This is just a quick and messy mini-rant about what I think is holding SC2 back atm.
To be completely honest, it's actually really just two things: the dumbed down to hell mechanics, and the hard counter unit balancing.
The game is not hard to play. In BW, there were only a few Quarks out there, who could get to B+ with clever gameplay to make up for low APM. In SC2, macro is just a matter of mashing some buttons after hitting a hotkey. You don't see many people asking for help with macro techniques, which was nearly every other thread back in the day in the BW strategy section. With automine, setting up your economy is just, again, a matter of pressing a few keys.
This has essentially devolved SC2, in my opinion, into what is pretty much just a timing game. Everything is about timing now, and not much else. Everyone macros well. If you can't macro near perfectly, then, to be frank, you're bad. Further, with the way many of the unit balances play out, your micro really isn't as important as many are saying it is (referring to arguments that SC2 being a "micro-oriented game" makes it a better spectator game or whatever nonsense). The counters are much harder in SC2 than they were in BW. Sure, they're a lot softer than in other games, but I really can't think of a single real hard counter to anything in BW. Even lings could be used effectively against firebats, and vultures had to be intensely micro'd against lings and zealots. In fact, lurkers, which I imagine were implemented as a deterrent measure against bio, ended up with bio as the preferred method to deal with them. How funny is that? And so, with unit counters and army composition being the type of thing that gets figured out within weeks of a game's release, we're left with nothing really all that brainy other than timing.
That's all SC2 is. BW was just as much timing, but then also unforgiving micromanagement and truly intense macro that separated the good players from the bad.
...and people dare say SC2's UI improvements make it a superior game...
This is all my own opinion, though, of course, and hardly a formal one at that. You're free to disagree and to argue against it, if you wish. It's not all there is to it, but it's a big part of it, I think.
 
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Give it time. SCII is still a very young game. People haven't found out the best way to utilize all units yet. Remember, at this stage in the game, SCI was pretty much one-base all-ins too. Hopefully as time wears on, we will see some sort of play emerge that is reminiscent of the great BW moments.
Though, I do think SCII is hard to watch. The GSL finals in particular was absolute trash. It was just all-ins followed by desperate attempts to build the proper counter. Doesn't stop SCII from being a much less frustrating game to play, though.
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I'm an avid brood war fan, and wanted nothing to do with SC2, and then I watched the MGL Dallas stream
It was pretty amazing, I had loads of fun spamming IRC/LR rooting for Liquids to make it through. Although the final was anticlimatic, everything else was worth watching.
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5/5 man, truer words have yet to be spoken
I crossed over to sc2 (and have mass-gamed it ;; ) because the state of the bw community is just so empty right now. Maybe one day we'll see an exodus of people going back, or newbies will show interest in the roots of sc2.
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This is just a quick and messy mini-rant about what I think is holding SC2 back atm.
I don´t see anything holding it back, the growth has been steady and quite rapid IMO.
As a Terran player I´ve only found two "hard counters" in the game, other is immortal to mech and other is corruptors to BC´s.
The game is not hard to play.
I really don´t know where this comes from, you´d think we´d see more top players with no previous progaming experience. IMO it´s still hard. Timings may be more important than in BW and macro easier but why not it´s a different game after all.
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On November 16 2010 08:24 PH wrote:
Anyway, BW largely dominated my interest after that. I stopped following other sports and really just kept up with BW, even, lol. What's funny is that my parents didn't even mind, whenever I went back to stay with them. They could tell listening to the Korean commentating was improving my terrible Korean.
That's what happened to me too :D
Now back on topic: Well said, man. Well said. Couldn't have put it any better myself.
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On November 16 2010 08:24 PH wrote:
Now we approach my big point: this is precisely why the BW camp is so critical of SC2. It's exactly, and for no other reason than, because SC2 is going to replace BW that we both hate it so much and want it to succeed so badly. It HAS to be as good as BW. No old BW fan loves SC2 yet.
This was my favourite part, very true. Nice rant.
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PH, I salute you!
(and not just because you help me determine the acidity of a substance)
I want SC2 to succeed as a game, and perhaps one day surpass BW (doubtful...), but I too am sick of being told how a game that holds the "Starcraft" title should be when there are so many who have never even given the original the time of day.
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This year's proleague has been pretty good, the OSL and MSL have been meh but they're still in the early stages so we might see good games in the Ro16 and later.
But I've been playing and watching SC2 a lot and it's quite a fantastic game. TvZ in SC2 is as good as any BW mirror, it's just that the other matchups haven't evolved into non-boringness yet.
But yeah, if TvZ can turn from MMM ball vs Hydra-Roach ball a-move to dodging and splitting marines and banelings then I'm sure stuff can happen with the other matchups. Phoenixes could be deadly in the hands of a high-APM player, it's just that there's not much to transition to now that Void Rays are nerfed.
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and, most importantly, a surprise and severe disappointment that it wouldn't be a 3d port of Brood War.
Was it? I mean, if you think about it, why on earth would blizzard even think about releasing an exact copy of a 10 year old game with just better technical backings like 3d graphics? I think its 300% obvious, that a new game will benefit not only from better technical surroundings, but also from technical improvements within. what would be the point of a 3d broodwar? Making the game not run anymore on old computers? there is even a ton of people who say "you can't play professionally without graphics on ultra low settings". Why should they even think about using a copy of their game with better graphics?
i think its completely obvious that an exact reimplementation of an old game would just completely fail. The "old school" folks would still rant because they don't need it, and the "new school" folks would rant aswell because two out of five AIs for just pathfinding are horribly bugged, which is just completely unjustifiable for a top notch game producer like blizzard.
So from me a question for you: Why on earth should blizzard have made sc2 as an identical copy of broodwar with just better graphics, or what are the things you would have liked to see changed from broodwar for sc2, so that you would like the game?
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Braavos36375 Posts
Personally, I hate the SC2 guys that post about wishing BW to just die. But I also hate all the BW elitists who go into SC2 threads talking about how BW is better and how SC2 is ruining ESPORTS. Both groups are bad for TL. There's no need to rant about why you believe BW is better, just like there's no need for SC2 fanboys to do the same. Both opinions are completely legitimate -- some like BW better and some like SC2. I don't see why people from either group needs to impose their beliefs on others. People need to stop comparing the games.
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Hi, used to be avid Starcraft gamer back around 2000 when it was not as big. Lost interest because of school. SC2 has revived my interest in not just SC2, but I also find myself once again watching BW.
I havent touched BW in years(probably has been atleast 3 years since I even last had it installed), and I hardly know the current strats but Proleague is still entertaining. BW was really crisp in comparison to SC2. The sounds design and how the whole game came together was very clean. Listening to your zerglings or zealots pound something to death was extremely pleasing to the eyes and the ears, in SC2 in the same situation, I find a feeling of "meh".
SC2 has a lot to live up to and currently I feel it lacks in comparison to BW as a spectator experience. There have been moments in the GSL where you could really see the potential of SC2, and it has been getting better. The quality from GSL1 to GSL2 was a huge jump, I hope the trend continues to GSL3. SC2 is still young and has yet to grow, also balance wise it also has not yet reached stability. Once the game is out for a bit and after a few more balance tweaks, we will hopefully see less balance whine and fantasies, and more constructive posts on the game itself.
Personally I view SC2 and BW, much how i viewed WC3 and BW. They are different games, that call for different playstyles. While SC2 may be a successor to BW, it will not be like BW. It will succeed or fail on its own merits.
I just hope the SC series does not turn out to be call of duty, where every new title essentially kills the old ones, while bringing an arguably worse game to the table. CoD4 is still the best competetive CoD in the series for most people, but its popularity in the general public is very low.
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I found the mini rant to be completely hypocritical. You rant about the two divides in TL community, and then start bashing SC2...So, You are in one of those groups that you were just ranting about...What? makes no sense
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You've failed before you've even started.
Dividing the community into SC2 fanboys assaulting holy ground and BW veterans defending their game... what made you think that that would be a good idea?
Ignoring your 'mini-rant'; what are you even trying to accomplish? If it's getting the two 'sides' to come to some sort of peace, you're not helping. Please stop. Honestly, I don't see anything of worth that this blog adds to the debate.
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On November 16 2010 08:48 OpRaider wrote:
I found the mini rant to be completely hypocritical. You rant about the two divides in TL community, and then start bashing SC2...So, You are in one of those groups that you were just ranting about...What? makes no sense
To this day, there is almost always a bias, in a writing. It is almost impossible to write up a full rant, without showing your own true colors. (Even though I see where you are coming from)
To be on topic, that was a good read. I really hope that both games can go both survive. I JUST WANT PROLEAGUE! I must say, scii has yet to show its true colors of excitement, TO ME, YET.
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I have been following the Brood War scene since  BoxeR vs  YellOw Coca-Cola OSL, or before with knowledge of Grrrr... and I disagree on nearly all points.
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I like both games although BW will forever remain in a special place for me. The issue with SC2 at the moment is that we still need to give it more time to develop into a true e-sports experience. I would definitely say that the BW scene is dwindling, or at least the foreign scene is, but I'm not exactly sure if we can say it'll die out.
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On November 16 2010 08:44 Hot_Bid wrote:
Personally, I hate the SC2 guys that post about wishing BW to just die. But I also hate all the BW elitists who go into SC2 threads talking about how BW is better and how SC2 is ruining ESPORTS. Both groups are bad for TL. There's no need to rant about why you believe BW is better, just like there's no need for SC2 fanboys to do the same. Both opinions are completely legitimate -- some like BW better and some like SC2. I don't see why people from either group needs to impose their beliefs on others. People need to stop comparing the games.
Comparing the games is inevitable though. I think that when BW fans transition into SC2, one would hope that they compare the two to see if SC2 lives up to the expectations that BW has set for the last decade. I think it's totally fair to compare the games....
But on the other hand, it's not as ok for everyone to just be flaming one another. To be honest though, the occasional light hearted joke makes me laugh.......
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On November 16 2010 08:37 Microlisk wrote:
5/5 man, truer words have yet to be spoken
I crossed over to sc2 (and have mass-gamed it ;; ) because the state of the bw community is just so empty right now.
It was during the off season since there weren't any games to follow and Blizzard/Gretech were pulling all kinds of shit, but ever since the new season started the BW forums have once again resumed the good old times. That point aside, I largely agree with the OP.
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On November 16 2010 08:37 HwangjaeTerran wrote:Show nested quote +This is just a quick and messy mini-rant about what I think is holding SC2 back atm. I don´t see anything holding it back, the growth has been steady and quite rapid IMO. As a Terran player I´ve only found two "hard counters" in the game, other is immortal to mech and other is corruptors to BC´s.
The game's growth has been steady and quite rapid for sure. I never said SC2 was a bad game. In fact, I'll go ahead and say it's one of the best games to come out in recent years. I'm just hoping and praying it holds up to what BW has accomplished, which will happen (or not happen) only with time.
Also, I spoke of the hard counters in a relative sense compared to BW.
I really don´t know where this comes from, you´d think we´d see more top players with no previous progaming experience. IMO it´s still hard. Timings may be more important than in BW and macro easier but why not it´s a different game after all.
I define a progamer as someone whose actual lifestyle and life is devoted to the game - someone whose occupation could easily and without doubt be "progamer". Within that framework, all foreign players with the exception of Idra, Nony (or Tyler, I guess) and Ret (and I think a couple others from way back before my time) fit the bill.
The best players from BW are doing well in SC2 in part because their mechanics are already set and overdeveloped for SC2. However, this isn't the real reason. The main and real reason they're doing so well is that they have the discipline to be at that top level of the game. I know that if you ask any of them who were competitive BW players, they'll tell you just how hard it was to practice and prepare for any kind of a match. They're applying that same ethic to SC2, and it's obviously paying off.
I never said timings were more important in SC2 than in BW. Actually, I said that timing is just as important to both games. SC2 simply has less distracting from that. It is indeed a different game, but it's still SC2. The game is still hard, but is not very mechanically demanding at all, in comparison to BW.
On November 16 2010 08:44 MisterD wrote:Show nested quote +and, most importantly, a surprise and severe disappointment that it wouldn't be a 3d port of Brood War. Was it? I mean, if you think about it, why on earth would blizzard even think about releasing an exact copy of a 10 year old game with just better technical backings like 3d graphics? I think its 300% obvious, that a new game will benefit not only from better technical surroundings, but also from technical improvements within. what would be the point of a 3d broodwar? Making the game not run anymore on old computers? there is even a ton of people who say "you can't play professionally without graphics on ultra low settings". Why should they even think about using a copy of their game with better graphics? i think its completely obvious that an exact reimplementation of an old game would just completely fail. The "old school" folks would still rant because they don't need it, and the "new school" folks would rant aswell because two out of five AIs for just pathfinding are horribly bugged, which is just completely unjustifiable for a top notch game producer like blizzard. So from me a question for you: Why on earth should blizzard have made sc2 as an identical copy of broodwar with just better graphics, or what are the things you would have liked to see changed from broodwar for sc2, so that you would like the game?
It was a whimsical statement.
On November 16 2010 08:44 Hot_Bid wrote:
Personally, I hate the SC2 guys that post about wishing BW to just die. But I also hate all the BW elitists who go into SC2 threads talking about how BW is better and how SC2 is ruining ESPORTS. Both groups are bad for TL. There's no need to rant about why you believe BW is better, just like there's no need for SC2 fanboys to do the same. Both opinions are completely legitimate -- some like BW better and some like SC2. I don't see why people from either group needs to impose their beliefs on others. People need to stop comparing the games.
I can agree with what you're saying, but I still can't help it. I don't want BW to die, but SC2 will kill it. With that said, I want SC2 to be great, and I want it to be great for reasons similar to why BW was great. That's probably too much to ask for, but I still want to ask for it.
On November 16 2010 08:48 OpRaider wrote:
I found the mini rant to be completely hypocritical. You rant about the two divides in TL community, and then start bashing SC2...So, You are in one of those groups that you were just ranting about...What? makes no sense
I never said I wasn't in either group. In fact, if you really read any of my post, you should find pretty clearly and obviously that I'm on the BW side. I never said the two sides have to get along, so I don't see why I'm being hypocritical. I'm just shedding light on why I and many of the others in the BW camp feel the way we do and speak out the way we do.
On November 16 2010 08:54 Redmark wrote:
You've failed before you've even started.
Dividing the community into SC2 fanboys assaulting holy ground and BW veterans defending their game... what made you think that that would be a good idea?
Ignoring your 'mini-rant'; what are you even trying to accomplish? If it's getting the two 'sides' to come to some sort of peace, you're not helping. Please stop. Honestly, I don't see anything of worth that this blog adds to the debate.
There's a clear polarization in the community. If you don't see it, you're deluding yourself. I merely referenced it, I didn't make anything up.
I never said I wanted the two sides to come to peace, either. This is a rant and a blog. I posted this in blogs because it's nothing more than that. I'm not trying to help anybody or anything, just expressing how I feel.
If you don't like it, then, quite frankly, too bad.
On November 16 2010 08:56 rift wrote:I have been following the Brood War scene since BoxeR vs YellOw Coca-Cola OSL, or before with knowledge of Grrrr... and I disagree on nearly all points.
I would love to hear why.
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Do you think SC2 will end up fulfilling the task you have set out for it?
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I don't think I agree that SC2 is the successor to BroodWar. SC2 is a different game. It's played differently, it looks different, it's aimed at a different audience.
BroodWar fills a niche SC2 can't. It's the game anyone can play on any computer. SC2 alienates everyone who can't afford a new, powerful computer. That's why SC2 is so popular with foreigners... This is the market most likely to have powerful computers. But the foreign community is also the most likely to jump to a new game in a year. A lot of the people who suddenly flooded into TL for SC2 are probably gonna flood to the next new game too.
I'd like to make a comparison to soccer. To play soccer all you need is a ball and some friends. It's as low tech and accessible as it gets. Similarly BroodWar is incredibly accessible. It's aired on TV, not on annoying streaming sites, so normal people can actually get into it. The pros have a much larger pool of players to draw from because of these factors.
SC2 is just a different game. It's not an upgrade in anyway. It's not an expansion pack to SC. If you expected SC2 to be a 3d version of BroodWar, I can't give much credit to your intuition.
If BroodWar dies, and I doubt it will, it will be because of IP rights issues. That's why there's so many topics about this. The comparing of the two games is useless except for determining your subjective view point. I don't like SC2. That doesn't mean it's a bad game. I think SC2 is freaking boring to watch. It doesn't mean everyone will find it bland. What matters is that people who like BW can still watch BroodWar, and people who like SC2 can watch SC2. Sorry if that sounds really trite and diplomatic, but I believe the scenes should survive on their own merit... There is no point in arguing which is better, we will just have to see which gets the larger viewership.
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On November 16 2010 09:24 Chef wrote:
I don't think I agree that SC2 is the successor to BroodWar. SC2 is a different game. It's played differently, it looks different, it's aimed at a different audience.
BroodWar fills a niche SC2 can't. It's the game anyone can play on any computer. SC2 alienates everyone who can't afford a new, powerful computer. That's why SC2 is so popular with foreigners... This is the market most likely to have powerful computers. But the foreign community is also the most likely to jump to a new game in a year. A lot of the people who suddenly flooded into TL for SC2 are probably gonna flood to the next new game too.
I'd like to make a comparison to soccer. To play soccer all you need is a ball and some friends. It's as low tech and accessible as it gets. Similarly BroodWar is incredibly accessible. It's aired on TV, not on annoying streaming sites, so normal people can actually get into it. The pros have a much larger pool of players to draw from because of these factors.
SC2 is just a different game. It's not an upgrade in anyway. It's not an expansion pack to SC. If you expected SC2 to be a 3d version of BroodWar, I can't give much credit to your intuition.
If BroodWar dies, and I doubt it will, it will be because of IP rights issues. That's why there's so many topics about this. The comparing of the two games is useless except for determining your subjective view point. I don't like SC2. That doesn't mean it's a bad game. I think SC2 is freaking boring to watch. It doesn't mean everyone will find it bland. What matters is that people who like BW can still watch BroodWar, and people who like SC2 can watch SC2. Sorry if that sounds really trite and diplomatic, but I believe the scenes should survive on their own merit... There is no point in arguing which is better, we will just have to see which gets the larger viewership.
Wow. First time I've heard someone put it that way. That's interesting, because I never thought that the SC2 community would quickly switch to the next big game. It seems that the current pool of SC2 players are up and ready to tackle competitive SC2 for a decently long period of time...at least from what I've seen posted in blogs and SC2 sites.
And I can agree on your view of comparing the games. The way I saw it was that comparison of the games helped you form your own subjective opinion of the game. Whether you wrongly tried to impart that opinion onto others is out of my control. But I can see what you mean that beyond forming your own opinion, trying to compare the two is pretty useless.
Good post.
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On November 16 2010 09:24 Chef wrote:
stuff
CS 1.6 vs CS 5.2?
Melee vs Brawl?
The scenes should survive on their own merit; that doesn't mean they do.
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The SC2 general forum is absolutely terrible. There are so many idiot posters there. If there's some bad thread proposing some change to make the game even easier to play and thus make it a more "strategic" and "thinking" game, then it turns into a 20 page shitfest between the SC2 fanboys who've never played BW, and the BW fans like myself who can't help but speak out against such shortsightedness. Somehow, it even feels like the innocent threads with interviews or news articles in them end up with small little shitfests as well. It's ridiculous.
I don't think this is fair.
If you look at what prominent members of the community have been promoting these ideas (of an intellectual and strategic game,) it's the opposite of what you're saying. Has TLO ever said that SC2 is more intellectual than SC1? nope. HuK nope, Demuslim? nope. MadFrog? nope.
it has been incontrol, IdrA, and Artosis, the veterans of the BW community. Now, the fact that they may be just saying this to promote the scene they're going to be a part of, or that they may be genuinely deceived is a separate manner, but when you say that there's a bunch of players (some of which may have never played BW in the first place like you mentioned) saying that SC2 is more of a thinking game than BW, you have to see where it's coming from, because this stuff just gets regurgitated when the community leaders make these statements. If IdrA came out and said that he thought the game was not only incredibly simple mechanically but also much inferior to BW strategically, then 99% of this talk would never exist in SC2 general forums in the first place.
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I wasn't into starcraft BW until I got into the SC2 beta which brought me here which brought me to broodwar. I rarely play broodwar (mostly with friends), but I love to watch it. I think that SC2 has a lot of untapped potential (really young, and 2 new expansions). I would give it a couple of years before it begins to pass broodwar in terms of development, but the development is actually proceeding quite fast.
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On November 16 2010 09:38 Crunchums wrote:CS 1.6 vs CS 5.2? Melee vs Brawl? The scenes should survive on their own merit; that doesn't mean they do.
I'm not defining merit as an individuals subjective opinion of what game is more skillful or fun... I'm defining merit as what game draws in more viewers without legal interference. In other words, it doesn't matter that people think SC2 is a more strategic favouring game that rewards smart players more... It matters that people want to watch it. Lots of people still want to watch BroodWar, therefore there's no good reason for it to die.
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On November 16 2010 09:45 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +
The SC2 general forum is absolutely terrible. There are so many idiot posters there. If there's some bad thread proposing some change to make the game even easier to play and thus make it a more "strategic" and "thinking" game, then it turns into a 20 page shitfest between the SC2 fanboys who've never played BW, and the BW fans like myself who can't help but speak out against such shortsightedness. Somehow, it even feels like the innocent threads with interviews or news articles in them end up with small little shitfests as well. It's ridiculous.
I don't think this is fair. If you look at what prominent members of the community have been promoting these ideas (of an intellectual and strategic game,) it's the opposite of what you're saying. Has TLO ever said that SC2 is more intellectual than SC1? nope. HuK nope, Demuslim? nope. MadFrog? nope. it has been incontrol, IdrA, and Artosis, the veterans of the BW community. Now, the fact that they may be just saying this to promote the scene they're going to be a part of, or that they may be genuinely deceived is a separate manner, but when you say that there's a bunch of players (some of which may have never played BW in the first place like you mentioned) saying that SC2 is more of a thinking game than BW, you have to see where it's coming from, because this stuff just gets regurgitated when the community leaders make these statements. If IdrA came out and said that he thought the game was not only incredibly simple mechanically but also much inferior to BW strategically, then 99% of this talk would never exist in SC2 general forums in the first place.
To be fair....PH isn't talking about the high level players. I think it's fair to say that most of the high level players are respectful to both games. I don't really see any problems up top.
I think PH is referring to new SC2 players who come and talk about how SC2 is more geared towards actual strategy, creativity, instead of game mechanics.
While both sides are at fault, and BW players just need to calm down sometimes, I think the SC2 players who are saying that SC2 is better than BW in terms of strategies, creativities are also at fault and just seeing the short term picture.
Because if SC2 players are correct and SC2 matures and becomes a staple game around the world. Strategies/creativity is going to be cut for game mechanics and timings. That's just the way the wind blows.
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On November 16 2010 09:24 Chef wrote:
I don't think I agree that SC2 is the successor to BroodWar. SC2 is a different game. It's played differently, it looks different, it's aimed at a different audience.
BroodWar fills a niche SC2 can't. It's the game anyone can play on any computer. SC2 alienates everyone who can't afford a new, powerful computer. That's why SC2 is so popular with foreigners... This is the market most likely to have powerful computers. But the foreign community is also the most likely to jump to a new game in a year. A lot of the people who suddenly flooded into TL for SC2 are probably gonna flood to the next new game too.
I'd like to make a comparison to soccer. To play soccer all you need is a ball and some friends. It's as low tech and accessible as it gets. Similarly BroodWar is incredibly accessible. It's aired on TV, not on annoying streaming sites, so normal people can actually get into it. The pros have a much larger pool of players to draw from because of these factors.
SC2 is just a different game. It's not an upgrade in anyway. It's not an expansion pack to SC. If you expected SC2 to be a 3d version of BroodWar, I can't give much credit to your intuition.
If BroodWar dies, and I doubt it will, it will be because of IP rights issues. That's why there's so many topics about this. The comparing of the two games is useless except for determining your subjective view point. I don't like SC2. That doesn't mean it's a bad game. I think SC2 is freaking boring to watch. It doesn't mean everyone will find it bland. What matters is that people who like BW can still watch BroodWar, and people who like SC2 can watch SC2. Sorry if that sounds really trite and diplomatic, but I believe the scenes should survive on their own merit... There is no point in arguing which is better, we will just have to see which gets the larger viewership.
The problem is SC2 is supposed to be the successor to BW, and the two games are similar enough that people can't help but compare them. Right now I watch SC2 as a fun sort of side thing but if I had to compare the games to BW it would be horribly bad. The reason I can enjoy SC2 for what it is and not expect it to fill BW's shoes is because I have BW. There is no need for me to dampen SC2 fans' enthusiasm by telling them how I truly feel. Honestly I don't see a whole lot of SC2 trashing from BW guys in the SC2 forums so I think most people are good about not pooping on someone else's fun.
However, if Blizzard does shut down BW then people will either leave the whole scene or turn to SC2 as a substitute. Without BW we will expect SC2 to deliver in the same way that BW has. I believe that SC2 (given Blizzard's general attitude) will never have some of the elements that made BW so amazing. This will piss people off. They won't be able to stop themselves from feeling that SC2 is inferior rather than just enjoying it as another very fun (but not as deep) game in its own right. Basically, I believe that if Blizzard kills BW then the polarization and gap between communities will be unbridgeable, and a lot of people will leave the scene forever.
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I think this was well written and I agree with all of your points. I think the only reason I ever play sc2 over bw is the match-making system; it's so annoying getting games on iccup if you cant host.
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On November 16 2010 09:21 Crunchums wrote:
Do you think SC2 will end up fulfilling the task you have set out for it?
I don't know, to be honest. I don't understand SC2's core gameplay well enough to be able to make a guess at that. I can only say I hope it does.
On November 16 2010 09:24 Chef wrote:
I don't think I agree that SC2 is the successor to BroodWar. SC2 is a different game. It's played differently, it looks different, it's aimed at a different audience.
BroodWar fills a niche SC2 can't. It's the game anyone can play on any computer. SC2 alienates everyone who can't afford a new, powerful computer. That's why SC2 is so popular with foreigners... This is the market most likely to have powerful computers. But the foreign community is also the most likely to jump to a new game in a year. A lot of the people who suddenly flooded into TL for SC2 are probably gonna flood to the next new game too.
I'd like to make a comparison to soccer. To play soccer all you need is a ball and some friends. It's as low tech and accessible as it gets. Similarly BroodWar is incredibly accessible. It's aired on TV, not on annoying streaming sites, so normal people can actually get into it. The pros have a much larger pool of players to draw from because of these factors.
SC2 is just a different game. It's not an upgrade in anyway. It's not an expansion pack to SC. If you expected SC2 to be a 3d version of BroodWar, I can't give much credit to your intuition.
If BroodWar dies, and I doubt it will, it will be because of IP rights issues. That's why there's so many topics about this. The comparing of the two games is useless except for determining your subjective view point. I don't like SC2. That doesn't mean it's a bad game. I think SC2 is freaking boring to watch. It doesn't mean everyone will find it bland. What matters is that people who like BW can still watch BroodWar, and people who like SC2 can watch SC2. Sorry if that sounds really trite and diplomatic, but I believe the scenes should survive on their own merit... There is no point in arguing which is better, we will just have to see which gets the larger viewership.
A lot of people said similar things for a while. However, I disagree. SC2 already has very low system requirements for a recently released game. Blizzard obviously intended for it to be very accessible. I remember when I first got BW when I was like...twelve, my father and I had to go through the computer for hours to free up enough hard drive space to meet the 600MB requirements. Even then, I had tons of problems running the game on a computer my dad had spent two grand only a year or so prior.
I don't think BW will survive for more than a few years with SC2 out. It was already starting to dwindle, and with KeSPA's utter retardation, it was getting more and more difficult to secure sponsors each season for the starleagues. The BW scene was revitalized in a big way with the announcement of SC2, but now that SC2 is out, every impression I'm getting is that pro BW will die at the hands of SC2 eventually.
It is indeed my own subjective viewpoint and I shared it as such. Again, the reader was warned at the start that it was a rant, and it was posted in the blogs. Personally, I enjoy SC2. I think it's fun enough, and I think that's very much due to the many great commentators out there. With Day[9], Tasteless and Artosis, as well as my community favorites like xHydrax and Husky, games are much more exciting to watch than they would be otherwise.
Let me completely honest and frank at this point and say that I hope that everything plays out as you've said. That would be great if BW could survive alongside SC2, and each on their own.
On November 16 2010 09:45 Kiarip wrote:Show nested quote +
The SC2 general forum is absolutely terrible. There are so many idiot posters there. If there's some bad thread proposing some change to make the game even easier to play and thus make it a more "strategic" and "thinking" game, then it turns into a 20 page shitfest between the SC2 fanboys who've never played BW, and the BW fans like myself who can't help but speak out against such shortsightedness. Somehow, it even feels like the innocent threads with interviews or news articles in them end up with small little shitfests as well. It's ridiculous.
I don't think this is fair. If you look at what prominent members of the community have been promoting these ideas (of an intellectual and strategic game,) it's the opposite of what you're saying. Has TLO ever said that SC2 is more intellectual than SC1? nope. HuK nope, Demuslim? nope. MadFrog? nope. it has been incontrol, IdrA, and Artosis, the veterans of the BW community. Now, the fact that they may be just saying this to promote the scene they're going to be a part of, or that they may be genuinely deceived is a separate manner, but when you say that there's a bunch of players (some of which may have never played BW in the first place like you mentioned) saying that SC2 is more of a thinking game than BW, you have to see where it's coming from, because this stuff just gets regurgitated when the community leaders make these statements. If IdrA came out and said that he thought the game was not only incredibly simple mechanically but also much inferior to BW strategically, then 99% of this talk would never exist in SC2 general forums in the first place.
To be honest, I don't really pay attention to what those guys have been saying aside from the occasional interview. However, I do see your point and have seen evidence of it.
In response, I think such words must be understood in the proper context. SC2 is, indeed, more a thinking-oriented game than BW is. But It does not necessarily follow that it has more strategic depth than BW does. Who knows, maybe SC2 will end up requiring more strategic thinking overall than BW. That remains to be seen. The fact of the matter is, though, that with SC2's lower mechanical requirements, you have a lot more time to think about what you're going to be doing. That fundamentally makes SC2 a more "thinking" game than BW. Do you understand my meaning?
This is just my take on it, though. Perhaps iNc, idra and artosis really have abandoned BW in saying such things, but I hope not. I don't think I've met anyone who loved BW more than Artosis. That guy was as passionate as it got about the game.
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On November 16 2010 09:24 Chef wrote:
If you expected SC2 to be a 3d version of BroodWar, I can't give much credit to your intuition.
Ok, I'm going to single this out and make a separate reply directly to it because you're the second person to take that statement the wrong way.
It was a joke. As I said in an earlier reply, it was a whimsical statement.
That said, it was still a sentiment shared by many upon SC2's announcement, even if just as a fantasy pipe dream.
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On November 16 2010 09:24 Chef wrote:
BroodWar fills a niche SC2 can't. It's the game anyone can play on any computer. SC2 alienates everyone who can't afford a new, powerful computer. That's why SC2 is so popular with foreigners... This is the market most likely to have powerful computers.
Thats not true. You can make a comp that can run sc2 np for >300 or if you're feeling spendy a comp that can run it on all max for 400.
Please do research.
Edit: If I have a post here might as well throw in to the rest.
These two games represent two different eras. As a result we should be treating them differently.
These games are both harder or easier depending on what you're looking at and above all are still different games. Saying one is harder or easier does what?
Really. What does it do?
All a thread will devolve to is people throwing shit at each other over the aisle with no regard to the consequence of said shit throwing.
When you post, you should be thinking "what does this do?".
Why tell someone the game that they dedicated the last decade to enjoying is a cardboard cut out 2d facsimile of a real game with enough broken mechanics to put an auto dealership in the black.
Or why tell someone that the game that has sparked enough zealotry to join an entirely new community, care enough to even speak about it that their game has no basis in real RTS gaming and has the APM requirement of a dead hippo.
When there's blatant Q_Qing over these games being compared treat it with apathy and callousness not rage and assault.
Because really what happens if all sc1 people leave? The core, the meaning the focus of this community is gone. What happens if all the sc2 people leave? The community is faced with a slow stagnant death that yes, BW will endure but to what end? Sc1 streams have over 3000 views for ro32 quals now. Sc2 coming into this genre has been a GOOD thing. More people want to learn about the game that started it all.
That made us all care.
Blatant elitism and assaulting to sc2 newbies makes them do what? Hate your game? Never want to play it? Never want to speak to you? When was that a part of the Team Liquid experience?
And brash irresponsible comments that net nothing towards sc1 veterans do what? Make them not want to come back to their home? That makes them feel unwelcome in a place they've found happyness and solace in an amazing community?
Frankly though more often than not when I'm watching streams it is the BW crowd that incites and flames sc2 fans almost with out exception more than sc2 fans. Everyone I know that plays sc2 knows the history much less the work put into BW by the pros is simply mind boggling.
I guess what I'm trying to say is that; Why fight? To what end do you hope to achieve in doing so? And if you do know what you're trying to achieve... Do you know the consequences.
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On November 16 2010 08:35 n00bination wrote:
Give it time. SCII is still a very young game. People haven't found out the best way to utilize all units yet. Remember, at this stage in the game, SCI was pretty much one-base all-ins too. Hopefully as time wears on, we will see some sort of play emerge that is reminiscent of the great BW moments.
I really hate this kind of argument, because it just completely ignores the vast difference in attitudes and the environment that each game was brought up in. You think a few guys playing Brood War for ramen back then, with a couple sparse tournaments, is anything comparable to what the fledgling SC2 community already has? Massive tournaments, money thrown at it by the handfuls, organized teams already starting up months after release? The fact is, the SC2 scene should develop much faster than the Brood War one. I am not saying that "oh SC2 has been out for nearly half a year, strategies should be as developed as BW now", but arguments like "give SC2 ten years and we'll see" are similarly incoherent.
If anything, the reason it's been developing slowly is Blizzard putting out shitty maps that encourage that kind of play -_-
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We got expansion packs to come anyways! GOM is an excellent company the staff all seem very nice. I only have hope for SC2.
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On November 16 2010 10:15 Thurokiir wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 09:24 Chef wrote:
BroodWar fills a niche SC2 can't. It's the game anyone can play on any computer. SC2 alienates everyone who can't afford a new, powerful computer. That's why SC2 is so popular with foreigners... This is the market most likely to have powerful computers. Thats not true. You can make a comp that can run sc2 np for >300 or if you're feeling spendy a comp that can run it on all max for 400. Please do research.
Sorry, my research consisted of having two pretty good computers that cannot run SC2. If I have to spend 450 dollars to play SC2, that's not exactly pocket change you.. silly, silly man. BroodWar costs like 10 bucks.
I was able to try SC2 on my brother's machine since he has like 9 gigs of RAM, but that's not a typical set up, and guess what, even if you can barely run SC2 on a brand new mid-range computer, SC2 looks really awful on low settings and is pretty much unplayable with cursor lag. BroodWar needs like 32 mb of RAM to function. SC2 needs 1.5 gigs of ram to barely function. If I'm someone (ie 90% of people/anyone who isn't playing the latest releases) who hasn't bought a new computer in a few years, which game can I run?
I remember when I first got BW when I was like...twelve, my father and I had to go through the computer for hours to free up enough hard drive space to meet the 600MB requirements. Even then, I had tons of problems running the game on a computer my dad had spent two grand only a year or so prior.
I had like four computers of varying ages when SC first came out, and all of them were able to run the game fine... But even if that were true, it doesn't change the fact that SC has become accessible to everyone, and has been for the majority of its life as an eSport. Maybe in 5 years SC2 will be incredibly accessible, but I don't think SC2 will even live that long. You gotta remember a large part of the fanbase is flighty... SC2 is the new big thing... SC1 has survived thru many new big things, but retained a large audience... WC3 hasn't, and SC2 probably won't either.
I can say this because SC2 isn't the first thing to ever challenge BW. This community has been through so many of these pseudo replacements it's not even funny. The only difference is that Blizzard is trying really hard to make SC2 work... There's no real precedent for anyone doing this, so all we can do is wait and see... But there is a number of precedents for BroodWar living on.
Really, I wanna ask this: What does SC2 have in common with SC1 that other RTS's don't have in common? Sure, there's the trademark minerals and gas, but there are iterations of this in many games. Sure, there's the players, but WC3 also took a lot of SC1 players and it is not doing so hot after the test of time. Right now SC2 is seriously just another RTS. It hasn't proven anything.
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On November 16 2010 10:15 Thurokiir wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 09:24 Chef wrote:
BroodWar fills a niche SC2 can't. It's the game anyone can play on any computer. SC2 alienates everyone who can't afford a new, powerful computer. That's why SC2 is so popular with foreigners... This is the market most likely to have powerful computers. Thats not true. You can make a comp that can run sc2 np for >300 or if you're feeling spendy a comp that can run it on all max for 400. Please do research.
Honestly, playing on a system that cheap would not be a pleasurable experience.
Also just because 300-400$ may be chump change people in the States/Canada, that is not the case about many people in other places or a younger age group.
Plus 300-400$ is a pretty hefty investment for a video game, when you can probably pick up any computer this day and age and run BW. Not to mention to play SC2 multiplayer you also need a good internet connection, whereas you can play BW with friends over lan.
I mean shit, back when I coached tennis, many people were turned away from it because down the road a decent tennis racquet cost 100-200$, and you needed atleast 2 to play in tournaments.
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On November 16 2010 10:34 Seide wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 10:15 Thurokiir wrote:On November 16 2010 09:24 Chef wrote:
BroodWar fills a niche SC2 can't. It's the game anyone can play on any computer. SC2 alienates everyone who can't afford a new, powerful computer. That's why SC2 is so popular with foreigners... This is the market most likely to have powerful computers. Thats not true. You can make a comp that can run sc2 np for >300 or if you're feeling spendy a comp that can run it on all max for 400. Please do research. Honestly, playing on a system that cheap would not be a pleasurable experience. Also just because 300-400$ may be chump change people in the States/Canada, that is not the case about many people in other places or a younger age group. Plus 300-400$ is a pretty hefty investment for a video game, when you can probably pick up any computer this day and age and run BW. Not to mention to play SC2 multiplayer you also need a good internet connection, whereas you can play BW with friends over lan. I mean shit, back when I coached tennis, many people were turned away from it because a decent tennis racquet cost 100-200$, and you needed atleast 2 to play in tournaments.
Not trying to derail the thread....but oh my God. Don't remind me of the hefty price that tennis brings to your life.
Damn good analogy right there for SC2.
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I agree with a lot of what you said, and disagree with a lot too. The fights on the forum are pretty ridiculous and make you cringe when you open up one of those threads.
And a lot of the newer SC2 blood that never played brood war, are in fact idiots. They say the most inane things without having the perspective to know better.
But hardcore brood war players are no less at fault. A lot of times they're making the same stupid posts and arguments, such as you did, saying that SC2's micro is not as important or what not, etc.
I think both sides are idiots tbh lol. The best side to be on is loving both games  i'm one of those people that absolutely loves brood war, and SC2, and can respect both games for what they are, and not go apeshit over SC2 taking over the Brood War scene. I'm sure there are a ton more that have similar respects for both games...but with all the forum bs from the SC2 vs SC1 stuff i'm sure they're lurking and not bothering posting lol.
Both "camps" are fucking stupid for being in camps in the first place.
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Vatican City State2594 Posts
Wish Brood War would live on like Chess did after Checkers. That's all I want. SC2 can have its own shit without stuffing itself down the throats of Korean public by taking primetime slots through legal means and without stuffing itself down BW fan's throats via the retarded masses of followers it has.
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On November 16 2010 11:12 avilo wrote:
such as you did, saying that SC2's micro is not as important or what not, etc.
Actually his point stands. With a hard counter system (like the damage system in sc2), micro does become less critical (read: this statement does not indicate that micro is not necessary). If you have 2 units, and unit a's damage type does double damage to unit b's and takes half the damage, unit b could still be micro'd to some effect, but it is an uphill battle and as such the outcome of the battle will depend less on micro than if the hard counter system was not in place. There are still many places where units can be micro'd successfully against other units (which on paper would beat them 1v1) but due to the nature of hard counters, it becomes less critical and instead the focus shifts towards a higher importance of army composition to hard counter your opponents'.
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Well, it will probably take Blizzard approximately 10 years to release the rest of the SC2 trilogy so I think we caught a break on that one.
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On November 16 2010 11:12 avilo wrote:I agree with a lot of what you said, and disagree with a lot too. The fights on the forum are pretty ridiculous and make you cringe when you open up one of those threads. And a lot of the newer SC2 blood that never played brood war, are in fact idiots. They say the most inane things without having the perspective to know better. But hardcore brood war players are no less at fault. A lot of times they're making the same stupid posts and arguments, such as you did, saying that SC2's micro is not as important or what not, etc. I think both sides are idiots tbh lol. The best side to be on is loving both games i'm one of those people that absolutely loves brood war, and SC2, and can respect both games for what they are, and not go apeshit over SC2 taking over the Brood War scene. I'm sure there are a ton more that have similar respects for both games...but with all the forum bs from the SC2 vs SC1 stuff i'm sure they're lurking and not bothering posting lol. Both "camps" are fucking stupid for being in camps in the first place.
Oh I know I've been a bit less than civil, but I don't think I've said anything that isn't more or less valid.
I don't find anything "stupid" about my comment that micro isn't as critical in SC2 as in BW. I may have put it in a blunt and less-than-friendly way somewhere else on the forum, but I still stand by what I said. This blog isn't really intended to start up a balance war, so I won't get any further into it than that (I rather regret having included that mini-rant with my OP -_- ).
Again, the point of my post was to express my feelings as one who is explicitly and without doubt on the BW side. I play SC2 more than BW now (actually I'd stopped playing BW apart from UMS with friends almost a year ago), and I do enjoy SC2 a lot. I get along fine with people who've never played BW. I don't get along with people who've never played BW who also make ridiculous comments and call me out for not moving on... :\
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On November 16 2010 08:35 n00bination wrote:
Give it time. SCII is still a very young game. People haven't found out the best way to utilize all units yet. Remember, at this stage in the game, SCI was pretty much one-base all-ins too. Hopefully as time wears on, we will see some sort of play emerge that is reminiscent of the great BW moments.
I totally expected this answer as a first reply. It could even be a bot posting this as soon as he detects the 'SC2 fans vs BW fans' words in an OP...
About OP : I agree it's totally regrettable that a community built on BW changed quite radically, and that newcomers shit on BW... But at the meantime, it's totally normal that TL evolved and integrates SC2 in his content and community. I am sure that the awesome moderation team will get rid of the bad posters and there must be smart people among the newcomers brought by SC2 who will contribute. But it might take a year or two !
edit : Oh and regarding the BW > SC2 part, what I would like the most is an anonymous poll among the ex top foreign BW players in which they truthfully say if they like SC2 or BW more.
It is totally understandable that they switched because it's new / has a lot of cash tourneys / smaller skill gap between koreans and foreigners, I would probably have done the same myself, but I am sure than most of them would admit BW is a superior game 
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I think ya'll sound a bit too emotional. Maybe ya'll should go listen to some avril lavign or angel city, and tell the difference between your birthdays, and how every new year is not the same as the old ones. If I compared when I first started playing BW and came back to BW it felt like a completely new game. Back when I first started playing BW, my coach told me to never build cannons, but when I came back in 2010, everyone built cannons, especially in pvz.
Maybe you should just try to learn to play better, so ya'll can teach the new people how to really play. Once you figure out how to beat all the cheeses, and see the all ins, I'm sure you'll feel a lot better about the game, and be able to go back to BW and play with your grandkids.
User was banned for this post.
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honestly I really wanted SC2 to be as good as possible during the beta. but the beta is over. they made almost no big changes. there are just parts of the game that will NOT change that sorta just ruin it for me. really boring game-centric units like banshees/mauraders/zerg/colossi will ALWAYS be in the game. expansions wont change that, at best they will just add other units that make those old ones not as important, but they'll still be there. high-ground advantage will NEVER be in the game. blizzard had their chance during the beta to make big changes and make the game better, but they really didnt do much.
basically i feel there are too many fundamental flaws in the game design for me to ever like it as much as BW. unless the expansions are fucking AMAZING i doubt ill ever care about sc2 anymore.
I can still hold out hope that people will move back to BW in time, but really it wont happen. once BW dies i dont see myself moving to SC2, ill just go back to what life was like before starcraft...somehow.
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On November 16 2010 09:24 Chef wrote:
I don't think I agree that SC2 is the successor to BroodWar. SC2 is a different game. It's played differently, it looks different, it's aimed at a different audience.
BroodWar fills a niche SC2 can't. It's the game anyone can play on any computer. SC2 alienates everyone who can't afford a new, powerful computer. That's why SC2 is so popular with foreigners... This is the market most likely to have powerful computers. But the foreign community is also the most likely to jump to a new game in a year. A lot of the people who suddenly flooded into TL for SC2 are probably gonna flood to the next new game too.
I'd like to make a comparison to soccer. To play soccer all you need is a ball and some friends. It's as low tech and accessible as it gets. Similarly BroodWar is incredibly accessible. It's aired on TV, not on annoying streaming sites, so normal people can actually get into it. The pros have a much larger pool of players to draw from because of these factors.
SC2 is just a different game. It's not an upgrade in anyway. It's not an expansion pack to SC. If you expected SC2 to be a 3d version of BroodWar, I can't give much credit to your intuition.
If BroodWar dies, and I doubt it will, it will be because of IP rights issues. That's why there's so many topics about this. The comparing of the two games is useless except for determining your subjective view point. I don't like SC2. That doesn't mean it's a bad game. I think SC2 is freaking boring to watch. It doesn't mean everyone will find it bland. What matters is that people who like BW can still watch BroodWar, and people who like SC2 can watch SC2. Sorry if that sounds really trite and diplomatic, but I believe the scenes should survive on their own merit... There is no point in arguing which is better, we will just have to see which gets the larger viewership.
I really really like this post. However it is hard to not compare SC2 with BW considering they're both "Starcraft".
Also, credit to OP discussing the state of the forums at the moment, and the line of thought leading to why people are annoyed at people making such comments about BW.
However I do find your lack of faith disturbing  , if you love BW as you say you do, have faith in that the scene can continue.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169151 left a very deep impression of how deeply the BW scene is ingrained in Korean culture. They started the BW proscene, and I have faith in that their love of the game they spent 10 years building on to the point that Starcraft is shown on TWO channels every day, not just the pro games itself, but other variety programs (like the one with Shinae and July) showing their appreciation of the game. If they believe BW is still worth broadcasting, why wouldn't you?
OZ vs SKT is soon, shouldn't you be preparing to watch that? Might clear some of your worries~
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On November 16 2010 11:44 Ideas wrote:
honestly I really wanted SC2 to be as good as possible during the beta. but the beta is over. they made almost no big changes. there are just parts of the game that will NOT change that sorta just ruin it for me. basically i feel there are too many fundamental flaws in the game design for me to ever like it as much as BW.
this this this
I considered making a blog post about all the things that I think are wrong with SC2 but I realized it wasn't worth the time; BW people would already know what I'm talking about whereas SC2 people would criticize me with the same tired arguments
("it's young, give it time, the expansions aren't even out yet" - "time and expansions won't matter if they don't fix the problems I'm talking about"
"BW is an 11 year old game, it's time to move on" - "uh no"
"blah blah blah i clearly did not read your post" - "you clearly did not read my post")
I don't want SC2 to fail and I don't hate it; it's is a pretty good game. But to me that's all it is - a game. BW is more than that, so it's hard not to be resentful about SC2 killing it. Things would be so much better if they fixed SC2's fundamental flaws but it's pretty clear that they're not going to.
Also, does anyone else find it funny that the people who hold this kind of belief tend to be zerg? PH, moopie, Megalisk, Misrah, Chef, me...
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On November 16 2010 12:43 Crunchums wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 11:44 Ideas wrote:
honestly I really wanted SC2 to be as good as possible during the beta. but the beta is over. they made almost no big changes. there are just parts of the game that will NOT change that sorta just ruin it for me. basically i feel there are too many fundamental flaws in the game design for me to ever like it as much as BW. this this this I considered making a blog post about all the things that I think are wrong with SC2 but I realized it wasn't worth the time; BW people would already know what I'm talking about whereas SC2 people would criticize me with the same tired arguments ("it's young, give it time, the expansions aren't even out yet" - "time and expansions won't matter if they don't fix the problems I'm talking about" "BW is an 11 year old game, it's time to move on" - " uh no" "blah blah blah i clearly did not read your post" - "you clearly did not read my post") I don't want SC2 to fail and I don't hate it; it's is a pretty good game. But to me that's all it is - a game. BW is more than that, so it's hard not to be resentful about SC2 killing it. Things would be so much better if they fixed SC2's fundamental flaws but it's pretty clear that they're not going to. Also, does anyone else find it funny that the people who hold this kind of belief tend to be zerg? PH, moopie, Megalisk, Misrah, Chef, me...
I'm Terran.
Though my name seems to suggest otherwise. >.>
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I think the most insightful thing said is that (most) of us BW fans want so badly for SCII to be great, because we loved SCBW and we know that SCII is slowly taking it over. People can say all the bullshit they want about the two being separate games, but it's impossible not to compare them, and impossible not for SCII to tread on BW's space.
I want so badly for SCII to be great, I really do, and that's probably the most painful part right now - the thought that it won't be that great, it'll kill of the BW scene and then die out when the next shiny game comes out. Of course, only time will tell right now, with 2 expansions left over, but there are just a few core things that exist that makes me fearful of the outcome.
Anyways, because I love Broodwar, I do wish all the best for SCII's success.
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BW fan here...
Ever since SC2 dropped, I stopped laddering on BW, iCCup is pretty much dead, and with my entire /f l and /c o pretty much empty all the time, I just stopped wanting to go on iCCup.
However, I want to love SC2 so much, but I just can't bring myself to play more than a few games.
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5/5 good read for an sc2 lurker like me. I definitely like your way of being very critical towards SC2 because of your love of BW and your desire of SC2 becoming as major. I've always looked up the Starcraft franchise as something incredibly grand once I realized people still played after so many years. With this sequel, I agree it would be very sad if SC2 doesn't last a good ten years.
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United States7481 Posts
On November 16 2010 08:44 Hot_Bid wrote:
Personally, I hate the SC2 guys that post about wishing BW to just die. But I also hate all the BW elitists who go into SC2 threads talking about how BW is better and how SC2 is ruining ESPORTS. Both groups are bad for TL. There's no need to rant about why you believe BW is better, just like there's no need for SC2 fanboys to do the same. Both opinions are completely legitimate -- some like BW better and some like SC2. I don't see why people from either group needs to impose their beliefs on others. People need to stop comparing the games.
I came in to post something almost exactly along these lines. I love both BW and sc2, and I hope both the scenes thrive. It really pisses me off to see sc2 people saying BW should just go away and give up, but it also pisses me off to see BW people saying sc2 is a joke, it has no value as an e-sport, and it should die. Both sides need to be more respectful.
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I kind of disagree with your minirant about how micro is no longer important in this game. In fact I think due to the new hard counter system managing battles is even more important than it was in broodwar. That said, I really really hope broodwar lives on. SC2 just isn't as fun to watch. All else aside that's the most important aspect of broodwar the majesty in the games is unparalleled by any esport game. If you can enchant your audience you can live for ever
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On November 16 2010 12:43 Crunchums wrote:
Also, does anyone else find it funny that the people who hold this kind of belief tend to be zerg? PH, moopie, Megalisk, Misrah, Chef, me...
HAHAHA. Nice catch.
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On November 16 2010 13:47 PH wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 12:43 Crunchums wrote:
Also, does anyone else find it funny that the people who hold this kind of belief tend to be zerg? PH, moopie, Megalisk, Misrah, Chef, me... HAHAHA. Nice catch.
they raped our race so much
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Seriously. I'm thinking of switching to T. It's not fun playing Z anymore ):
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As with any video game, the first year it's out everybody loves it, and after that only the true fans stick around. So those people who don't have anything nice to contribute will move on, and those dedicated to the game will stay. Overall the discussions will improve over time.
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PH, you're my hero. You basically just summed up all of the thoughts I had running around my head today.
On November 16 2010 08:44 Hot_Bid wrote:
Personally, I hate the SC2 guys that post about wishing BW to just die. But I also hate all the BW elitists who go into SC2 threads talking about how BW is better and how SC2 is ruining ESPORTS. Both groups are bad for TL. There's no need to rant about why you believe BW is better, just like there's no need for SC2 fanboys to do the same. Both opinions are completely legitimate -- some like BW better and some like SC2. I don't see why people from either group needs to impose their beliefs on others. People need to stop comparing the games.
The biggest issue I have with this is not the games but TeamLiquid. TL used to be this premier Broodwar site, filled with crazy/awesome people and insights. I'm not saying TL isn't that anymore but we integrated Starcraft 2 into our whole system. TL is no longer Broodwar progaming news, its Starcraft progaming news. Is SC2 worthy of suddenly becoming this giant section of TL? Sc2 is a great game, but so is Warcraft 3, LoL, Diablo, CS, etc. That's why we have the sports and games section. I can't help but feel that sc2 was instantly expected to be accepted just because it has the word "starcraft" in it.
Because TL accepted sc2 as an equal to broodwar, over any other game, I feel like they have to be compared.
On November 16 2010 12:43 Crunchums wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 11:44 Ideas wrote:
honestly I really wanted SC2 to be as good as possible during the beta. but the beta is over. they made almost no big changes. there are just parts of the game that will NOT change that sorta just ruin it for me. basically i feel there are too many fundamental flaws in the game design for me to ever like it as much as BW. Also, does anyone else find it funny that the people who hold this kind of belief tend to be zerg? PH, moopie, Megalisk, Misrah, Chef, me...
Despite being a zerg player at heart, I could not bear to play zerg in sc2. Going from muta micro and lurker ling surrounds to a-moving various different units in ball formations was too heartbreaking. Also, lings are not crickets!
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On November 16 2010 13:57 Ideas wrote:Show nested quote +On November 16 2010 13:47 PH wrote:On November 16 2010 12:43 Crunchums wrote:
Also, does anyone else find it funny that the people who hold this kind of belief tend to be zerg? PH, moopie, Megalisk, Misrah, Chef, me... HAHAHA. Nice catch. they raped our race so much
Yeah zerg probably resembles it's BW counterpart the least out of the 3 in SC2. So much so that I'll rage about it when offracing(I don't play zerg in SC2 or BW) >_>.
Man, I don't really hate SC2. I like it as a game, but what I really hate is all this KeSPa-Blizzard crap that's going on. If BW dies, I probably won't be able to enjoy SC2 that much, particularly because I like BW so much, and I really feel like what's going on right now is probably not going to turn out the best. So it's really hard not to hate SC2, even now, cause it kinda embodies what Blizzard is at the moment. SC2 shouldn't replace BW, but when Blizzard is trying to make it such, (They claim they aren't, but their actions say otherwise...) of course you're gonna draw comparisons between the two games.
Although, I can't really say I like KeSPA either, both sides are being incredibly greedy and it's probably going to go to the worst possible outcome. I feel like both sides say one thing but have their actions completely contradict it....
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To be honest, after reading that translated article floating around SC2 General (and generating shitstorms in the replies), I have to side more with Blizzard now. KeSPA has never been a very admirable company. They've always done thing to raise the eyebrows of the fans. Blizzard, however, has more or less let things go for many years.
I don't like how Blizzard is suddenly being adamant about all this garbage now, but right now, I get the feeling that it's more so that KeSPA can't stunt the growth of SC2 in Korea, not so that Blizzard can kill off BW for SC2's sake.
Blizzard is one of the best companies out there. If they go under and turn into corporate monsters, then major video games are doomed.
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Why do you had to side with Blizzard or KeSPA... is it a dichotomy?
I side with the broadcasters, but I think there must be a reason broadcasters were cooperating with KeSPA. It's not like KeSPA is the mafia and said PAY US FOR PROTECTION LOL.
We get a really tiny picture from those random translated articles. We get a much better picture from seeing what is actually happening to the scene. Contrary to what you said, I don't think BW has been declining at all. Korean Air sponsored two events in a row! Don't tell me you think that's because SC2 was coming. Therefore... I think I believe it when KeSPA says they put the money back into eSports to help it grow. Look at the game house conditions for goodness sake... They have only steadily improved.
If I had to guess, I'd say that KeSPA must be functioning a lot more like a union than anything else, which gives the players and broadcasters an actual voice. Sure they were kind of mad when Gom started their own league and they told their players not to do it... But seriously, there are so many games all the time there was a legitimate cause for concern that the match's quality might be decreased because of an insane number of different games everyone has to play... Not the mention the prestige of winning a tournament is lowered the more tournaments there are. Do you remember Stork interviews where he finally won a gold and said 'it doesn't mean as much anymore' since there are so many leagues? What became more valuable was proleague success, and that was largely because there is only one proleague.
Blizzard isn't just another form of KeSPA. Blizzard are a brand new kind of jerks. They're post-WoW jerks.
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On November 16 2010 08:44 Hot_Bid wrote:
Personally, I hate the SC2 guys that post about wishing BW to just die. But I also hate all the BW elitists who go into SC2 threads talking about how BW is better and how SC2 is ruining ESPORTS. Both groups are bad for TL. There's no need to rant about why you believe BW is better, just like there's no need for SC2 fanboys to do the same. Both opinions are completely legitimate -- some like BW better and some like SC2. I don't see why people from either group needs to impose their beliefs on others. People need to stop comparing the games.
I pretty much agree with hot bid here, look, I'll admit, yo ucan look at my profile and see I made my account on February 19th I believe it was, I had only been lurking TL for about 2-3 months prior to finally signing up. So I am an SC2 guy through and through, I just follow everything BW as well
very little pisses me off on TL more than
1) people with accounts made after April 20th (TL Beta key giveaways started) saying BW should just die
2) people with very old accounts, mostly a ton of translators/non mod staff who REFUSE to acknowledge the existence of SC2 and say that they will never play it because it is an inferior game.
I watch BW streams as well as SC2 streams, I follow every single individual/proleague match as well as major tournament results, why is it that we can't just get along and acknowledge the other will continue to exist?
If BW isn't your thing because you only joined TL to get a free beta key, then so be it, but don't tell them to die
If SC2 isn't your thing, just let it be, nobody is stopping you from playing BW but denying the community and generalizing it as immature and nooby just turns you into an elitist.
I was glad to see that TL wa slooking for new translators because in all honesty, we needed those guys, the people like konadora and Smix etc. with the translator symbols. Hyungjoon wants to be a progamer and Nal ra's old boy were two of th ebest things that happened to the community in the past year and a half, but lately theres been a denial of content. There were projects cancelled, other ones delayed 4-6 months.
Even sc2 guys can enjoy the content of those amazing korean shows. I hope that the new translators can revive some life into those projects.
And I hope that we can all just accept the others, as TL is a single community, not two or three living in one a la SRK with its 10 different communities split between different games.
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