On September 29 2010 11:47 Ajnin wrote: its been 12, TWELVE YEARS, god give it a break. SC1 had its fame for as long as a game needs, and a sequel is exactly what it needed. OFC people will still play BW, but it will decline.
Compare these pointless arguments to anything in the world of secondary products. If you have a 2003 ipod, sure it plays the music and people still have it, but when a 2010 ipod comes out its not like the new/casual/long time listeners want an old product. This can be compared to so many things it would be impossible to list them out.
Koreans/TL/ICCUP is holding up BW, and the community of BW is a fraction of SC2. Sponsors will go to SC2, more tourys for SC2, more people for SC2. Korea will be the only place with maybe a .5% of americans playing in years time, and even then more and more koreans are moving on to SC2.
Its not bad if SC dies, its been running for so long that people crying about it now is just ridiculous and is over exaggerating the loss. Some people still have 2003 ipods, dont they? Some people still play BW dont they? TL can complain all they want on BW, it wont change how people are moving to SC2 and how it has such a bigger impact on the casual and hardcore scene (in terms of how long its been out) of america/europe/etc.
BW is just not the place for a casual player. D/D- can alone be ridiculous.
To all these people that are saying SC2 wont be as good, wont live up to the hype, and cant compare, are obviously retarded. Its been like 3 months, its a fucking baby. It needs to be updated and all these builds/discussions/strats need time. Your obviously an idiot if you ALREADY think SC2 sucks. BW had its time, more then enough time for any game, and evolution takes its correct place. Support the growing SC2 community! It has millions of users! It has already helped Esports a ton.
(note:IMHO. not to offend anyone.)
post in this topic, and i realized that i hear this kind of thing way too often and it needs to be throughly discussed why ideas like this are so completely wrong. The post was off topic in the original thread but it does raise an important issue so i want to discuss it here.
Starcraft isn't just like every other shitty video game, imagine if people came out with a "chess 2" with redesigned pieces and you could move 2 at once and could take back 5 moves per game so it was more open to the casual player. Thats a little bit closer to what were talking about here.
Saying that BW dying is a good thing and that its run its course and 12 years is more than enough time makes a little sense if you're viewing starcraft in the same lens as every other video game (its just like halo 1, who plays that its so old omfg??!?!). But to view it like that would be ignoring the extraordinary aspects about it that made it last so long in the first place. Starcraft is a wildly successful spectator sport that requires a ridiculous amount of skill to play at the incredibly high level that is required of professionals. It is a lot more like chess or basketball or soccer than other video games, so it should be treated as such.
People saying things like:
On September 29 2010 11:47 Ajnin wrote: its been 12, TWELVE YEARS, god give it a break. SC1 had its fame for as long as a game needs
Is like saying oh yeah baseball had its hundred years now its run its course lets play baseball 2. Rubber ball to make it more accessible to new players so its easier to hit, oh yeah and lets move the home run in 50 yards so there's more action. like, wtf? does that make any sense? If you say "no, but thats totally different baseball is an iconic sport" then you have the wrong perspective about starcraft.
People Saying things like: "BW is just not the place for a casual player. D/D- can alone be ridiculous"
Oh yeah D/D- isn't hard to achieve for a casual player. Is that a serious statement? Starcraft is just more complicated than other video games so it takes a bit longer to learn the finer points, you can't just expect to pick it up like you can pick up halo. Lets again use basketball as an example since it makes so much more sense to compare Starcraft to basketball than to other video games. Now to a "casual player" (i.e someone who knows nothing about the game but plays with friends once every couple weeks) can you reasonably expect them to be able to make 8/10 left handed layups running full speed if they are right handed? Probably not. But any halfway decent high school basketball player is easily capable of doing that. Now, is this player doesn't really have to be very talented at or committed to basketball to be able to do this, he just has to have spent a little time on it and put in a little effort to learn exactly what he should be doing to do this successfully. He is still a fairly casual player.
Example 2: Chess: It takes a bit of time to learn and memorize the rules and gameplay, and then learn a bunch of openings and basic chess theory etc. A "casual player" may not know any openings or really know anything about chess and to expect them to achieve a 600 rating (lets call it the D- of chess, if 600 isnt that bad sorry i don't know chess ratings very well). It takes a bit of time and effort. But that said, a 600 rated player is still a casual player. They aren't necessarily skilled at all and anybody who put in a little time and effort could be just as good as they are. Just like D/D- iccup rank.
Bottom line is starcraft is as accessible to a casual player as any real sport (like chess, basketball) is. While it isn't something you can just pick up and be decent at if you've played other games like it, neither is chess, baseball, basketball etc.
So do you see how it can be accessible to a casual player without being super easy to pick up? and you can just play for fun and not competitively and that stuff is really accessible. Play BGH (Or SC2) before you're ready for regular Starcraft, if you're new to it all or just want to chill. You can play H-O-R-S-E before you can play basketball.
Also i don't think SC2 has helped Esports as much as people think. its brought a lot of short term publicity but really only in the gaming world, and it doesn't address what is a major underlying problem in the way of Esports being successful in a transcultural across the board way that real sports have been. Only time will tell but i think the reason Esports hasn't REALLY caught on in mainstream culture really anywhere outside of Korea is because its way too broad of a category. There are no true Esports because they fucking change all the time. Sports, lets see: there's like what, less than 10 major ones in america? And they've been around forever because they're the best. Esports changes every year. Every time a new game is released with better graphics the old one is thrown out the window.
With regular sports people have played them their entire life, their parents played them, everyone knows them they've become part of the culture. There are the iconic greats of last generation that no one ever forgets. There are no sequels because the graphics are the world and game engine/operating system is life and those can't be improved. With video games they can be and so they are updated constantly to make them shinier and more modern, and therefore more attractive to the "casual player". There are no iconic greats that people remember because those guys played an obsolete game that no one cares about today. Now, this is ok if you're making video games for kids to play at their friends houses for entertainment which is still the main reason games are made. But then again, kids still play basketball (an 100 year old game) together so are updates as necessary as we think?
There are really two classes of games, ones that are sports and ones that are games or pastimes. All the ones that work as sports work as casual pastimes to a good extent, but that isn't true for the casual games working well as real sports.
But to view SC2 as a horrible thing isn't right either. SC2 is just being viewed the wrong way by people. SC2 should never have been designed to be an Esport, to quote Nukethestars it makes much more sense as a "tribute" to SC1, and as a game that should function as a casual pastime on par with age of empires than an attempt to uproot replace Brood War as an Esport. And as soon as people realize that we can really have the best of both worlds: Professional Brood War functioning as the great Esport and Starcraft 2 to be just for fun drawing new people in to the whole scene. Think Chess and Checkers. Or Basketball and H-O-R-S-E like i said before.
Now, overall this is my point: Remember how i said that Esports hasn't REALLY caught on anywhere outside of korea? Well it caught on in korea. And remember how i said that the reason it hasn't REALLY caught on anywhere outside of korea is because the games change all the time and there are no iconic players and the games are seen as (and created to be) more of a pastime than a real sport. Well in Korea the game doesn't change all the time it stayed for 12 years and counting. In Korea there are iconic players that are household names. There is boxer for that little 8 year old kid playing starcraft for the first time to look up to. Just like the 8 year old kids here in America wanna be just like mike when they learn basketball. And in Korea, the game is seen as a major spectator sport that you can enjoy without having any ability at the game yourself. Just like there are people who have never played baseball that love to watch baseball.
So is it possible that maybe they're really doing something right in Korea? And the key to having Esports successful is to have that iconic game(s) with those iconic household name players that makes a real spectator sport accessible to people who can't play the game at all? Now you see why people care so much that Brood War sticks around. Not just because we love it (which is reason enough). Because it is the only real Esport.
Well-written post. Pretty much stated my thoughts exactly.
This idea of "SC2 is out, so it's time to pack up BW and move on" is just silly.
Unfortunately, I find it implausible that BW would ever have the longetivity of a "real" sport, simply because people just don't take eSports seriously in general right now. But I wholly agree that in theory, there's no reason why it should have to be ousted in favor of SC2.
Yup, I've had the same feelings as you OP. Jumping from game to game every 5-10 years is just stupid and throws away everything players worked for and developed.
I've said it before but, I think some organization just needs to modify Brood Wars graphics while keeping the game engine in tact. Basically make HD sprites and support for 16: 9. While they're at it revamp the online system with matchmaking and make the UI look more inviting, and fitting for 2010.
I think this should be done by Blizzard, but I don't see it happening...
On September 29 2010 13:31 matjlav wrote: Unfortunately, I find it implausible that BW would ever have the longetivity of a "real" sport, simply because people just don't take eSports seriously in general right now.
Agreed, eSport games will probably have a shorter lifespan (probably in 100 years, people will not be obsessed with BW like today, but then again I could be wrong), but it doesn't mean you shouldn't keep going with them. eSports is very "lol" world-wide right now. If the scene is to ever expand, it has to broaden everything it displays and offers. Continuously cycling through games like idiotic companies who just want to make money isn't for eSports. They need to show that if created properly, a game can continuously evolve in how its played until before you realize it, the game was played for literally decades with world-wide interest. Could you imagine if a few video games were released that were meant for a long-term evolution instead of getting money to whoever and then moving onto the next venture? We'd have 8 games that evolve over 12 years instead of 1. That sort of setup is how we'll know eSports reached a new level.
On September 29 2010 14:05 LegendaryZ wrote: Blizzard needs to learn from Capcom and release "Starcraft Brood War: HD Remix"
While they're at it, they can also release "Warcraft 2: HD Remix". I would enjoy that very much.
That is honestly what I was hoping SC2 would be
I would LOVE to play a new 2D RTS in 1920x1080. If theres one thing I've noticed over the years it's that 3D RTS just does not work as well as 2D. It's always clunky and unclear.
On September 29 2010 14:05 LegendaryZ wrote: Blizzard needs to learn from Capcom and release "Starcraft Brood War: HD Remix"
While they're at it, they can also release "Warcraft 2: HD Remix". I would enjoy that very much.
SCBW HD remix alone would probably draw in a new crowd of fans since most of the people I've spoken to who solely play SC2 are put off by the graphics.
I think the OP was well written and was a nice read, I'm going to point people to this thread when ever someone writes "just let BW die already" or something like that.
On September 29 2010 13:31 matjlav wrote: Unfortunately, I find it implausible that BW would ever have the longetivity of a "real" sport, simply because people just don't take eSports seriously in general right now.
Agreed, eSport games will probably have a shorter lifespan (probably in 100 years, people will not be obsessed with BW like today, but then again I could be wrong), but it doesn't mean you shouldn't keep going with them. eSports is very "lol" world-wide right now. If the scene is to ever expand, it has to broaden everything it displays and offers. Continuously cycling through games like idiotic companies who just want to make money isn't for eSports. They need to show that if created properly, a game can continuously evolve in how its played until before you realize it, the game was played for literally decades with world-wide interest. Could you imagine if a few video games were released that were meant for a long-term evolution instead of getting money to whoever and then moving onto the next venture? We'd have 8 games that evolve over 12 years instead of 1. That sort of setup is how we'll know eSports reached a new level.
I can just imagine photo-realistic SCBW, CS 1.6, CoD 4 Hardcore and HoN as banner-bearers for this kind of thing if it were to happen. Oh how realistic it would be... *dreams*
On September 29 2010 14:05 LegendaryZ wrote: Blizzard needs to learn from Capcom and release "Starcraft Brood War: HD Remix"
While they're at it, they can also release "Warcraft 2: HD Remix". I would enjoy that very much.
SCBW HD remix alone would probably draw in a new crowd of fans since most of the people I've spoken to who solely play SC2 are put off by the graphics.
I think the OP was well written and was a nice read, I'm going to point people to this thread when ever someone writes "just let BW die already" or something like that.
it'd have to be the same engine though with all the same bugs or else it'd never play the same, and thus most likely impossible :\
On September 29 2010 13:31 matjlav wrote: Unfortunately, I find it implausible that BW would ever have the longetivity of a "real" sport, simply because people just don't take eSports seriously in general right now.
Agreed, eSport games will probably have a shorter lifespan (probably in 100 years, people will not be obsessed with BW like today, but then again I could be wrong), but it doesn't mean you shouldn't keep going with them. eSports is very "lol" world-wide right now. If the scene is to ever expand, it has to broaden everything it displays and offers. Continuously cycling through games like idiotic companies who just want to make money isn't for eSports. They need to show that if created properly, a game can continuously evolve in how its played until before you realize it, the game was played for literally decades with world-wide interest. Could you imagine if a few video games were released that were meant for a long-term evolution instead of getting money to whoever and then moving onto the next venture? We'd have 8 games that evolve over 12 years instead of 1. That sort of setup is how we'll know eSports reached a new level.
I can just imagine photo-realistic SCBW, CS 1.6, CoD 4 Hardcore and HoN as banner-bearers for this kind of thing if it were to happen. Oh how realistic it would be... *dreams*
Funny thing is BW HD would take blizzard maybe 1 week. BroodWar used 3D models for all of their sprites, you just need to render them in higher definition. Although the worst outcome would be Blizzard remaking the models to look like WC3 and then rendering them into BW, that would be really bad. It needs to be the original models.
I wish blizzard released the old BW models to the public. Although if someone could be bothered, we could get the models from project revolution, render them into 2D, and inject them into BW. The terrain and some of the effects would still be bad though, that would need to be revamped.
ok i was quoted in this topic so ill just give a few things on this:
1. 12 years for a VIDEO GAME is how i compared BW to people crying that its over. BW is not basketball, you cant compare it to sports. basketball doesnt get engine fixes, or GFX improvements. the idea is there, but its not very logical.
3.12 hours of training for BW is not the same as training for a sport. comparing BW to chess and watching SC and watching basketball? wtf? have you gone out in the real world? lol?
3. Physical sports can NOT be compared to pixels on your monitor. Maybe if you played any you would understand why.
4.Korea got a craze, and thats cool. America?Europe?The rest of the world? Im all for sc2 and bw, but this topic is downright stupid in someways, the esports in general is the only logical thing i see in here.
I kinda feel the same way, and it's why I hope professional Brood War can survive at least until Star2 has had a chance to really prove itself. But at the same time, I just can't believe that there is no opportunity for another RTS to ever improve on BW as a spectator sport.
It may never recapture the glory of the original from those innocent days before we even perceived e-sport as a phenomenon. The accomplishments of the new stars may seem hollow to those who witnessed the passion and the brilliance of Boxer and Yellow, of Nal_rA and Savior. These are heroes. They ventured where we could not, permitting us to share in the emotion of victory and defeat. Their aspirations were our own, and the authentic spirit they displayed in competition infused the PC rooms and the online ladders. And despite their human frailties, we cherish the legacy of these players.
But like the heroes of baseball in 19th century America, who now remembers the names or deeds of these giants five generations hence, though they overcame the imbalances, the hungry days of ramen, the macrobots and cheesers of their era. Though we call it baseball, ours is a new game played with modern equipment and by different rules.
Amazing OP, funnybananaman. I hadn't really put much thought into it before but you laid everything out on the table and really made the paradox of esports clear. I sincerely hope that not only will bw survive the test of time but also that sc2 will rise to a balanced and competitive level.
I'm going to play devil's advocate. Granted, I love watching BW, moreso than SC2, but I can see why it's being endangered.
Counter-Example 1: Games need to be updated, for aesthetic and for balance reasons. First of all, BW runs on Windows 95. We have to hack it just to make it work. Didn't they release a patch so that it would run properly on multi-core systems? Hacking is already kinda iffy.
Major sports are changed all the time. Look at the big hubbub over instant replay. There are minor rules changes in American football every year, like the abolishing of the 5-yard incidental facemask penalty.
Aesthetically, I'm not talking about pretty graphics. What I'm really impressed with is the amount of information available to the observer in SC2. I get to know what he's building, how many units he has, how many buildings, APM, all of that. MSL doesn't even have a resource/food count. To get all the information, again, we have to hack it.
The real life analogy would be like how they used to keep score. Imagine if everyone still used score cards. Hey look! I invented a scoreboard! Now everyone can know what the score is... but no, we can't implement it, because they won't let us or the turf can't support the new technology. (btw lol @ golf)
Counter-example 2: The skill gap is huge. What makes it insurmountable is the lack of novice players. In team games, I'm used to seeing somewhat poor players get in the mix and enjoy themselves because the rest of the team will guide and carry them. Team games in BW are nearly nonexistent, and require too much individual skill for a player to help them.
Second is the tough learning curve. In chess, you might be ranked 600, but there are other 600 players to play with. In BW, between D and D- is HUGE. And that was before SC2 came out. D- to me was trash, but D was impossible to beat. Perhaps in Korea, it's more easily set up because they have friends to play with and progress with before they move on to pickup games. I don't know. I'm not from Korea. The same thing is happening to SF4 players wanting to play 3S or ST. The average or below average 3S/ST players will blow SF4 players out of the water at 3S/ST, and it's frustrating because SF4 players have no one to play with and get good and get on the learning curve with, they either have to play veterans or the computer and neither is good learning for them.
What about the argument of poker? There's tons of styles to play and only recently did 1 form get extremely popular. SC2 could be the No Limit Hold'em of video games. Just saying..
On September 29 2010 15:26 Ajnin wrote: ok i was quoted in this topic so ill just give a few things on this:
1. 12 years for a VIDEO GAME is how i compared BW to people crying that its over. BW is not basketball, you cant compare it to sports. basketball doesnt get engine fixes, or GFX improvements. the idea is there, but its not very logical.
3.12 hours of training for BW is not the same as training for a sport. comparing BW to chess and watching SC and watching basketball? wtf? have you gone out in the real world? lol?
3. Physical sports can NOT be compared to pixels on your monitor. Maybe if you played any you would understand why.
4.Korea got a craze, and thats cool. America?Europe?The rest of the world? Im all for sc2 and bw, but this topic is downright stupid in someways, the esports in general is the only logical thing i see in here.
1. Where in the dictionary does it say a sport can't have GFX improvements, or engine fixes?Please, point it out to me.
Just look at how much different sport looks on TV these days with all the flashy computer graphics pasted on the screen, and FIFA has probably made more changes to soccer, than blizzard has to BW in the last 5 years.
3 (2). Yes it is, there is absolutely no difference besides the culture and wealth of the sport itself. Eat, gym, train, eat, train, recover, eat, sleep. If your team is wealthy you will have extras, like ice-baths, and massages, and just better facilities in general. The core is the same though. I haven't been in a pro-gamer house, but I do have a relative who is a professional sportsman who plays for a professional team.
Different sports have different schedules. I could train 12 hours in fishing or golf, easy, does that make it not a sport? What if someone trained in tennis for 12 hours, is everyone but him, actually playing a sport? Your statement makes absolutely no sense.
3. You are logically 100% correct here, Physical sports can NOT be compared to pixels on your monitor. Just like how bunny rabbits cannot be compared to methylated spirits, what is your point? Maybe you are trying to say that anything that is rendered with pixels can not be considered a sport. However you are wrong, when you watch the football on TV, it is rendered with pixels.
4. By your definition America got a craze in gridiron for 90 years, somehow its still going, like BW. A craze doesn't last 12 years, and it can only be defined once it loses significant popularity, BW as an e-sport has maintained its popularity in Korea.
Why do people compare SC2 to sports soooooo much, I know its quite off topic, but im pretty much a closet nerd, ive played BW for 10 years love the pro scene and all, but I'm an Athlete, i was a jock in school, thats all im gonna say bout that so people dont think im trying to brag. Anyway, it almost angers me that people will compare starcraft to things like hockey and basketball, I love games and sports, but there separate, and it's not too say one is better than the other, it's excactly the opposite, it makes me so angry that people need to feel like physical things are superior to mental things, I.E. chess to lacrosse, I love lacrosse IMO best sport on earth (than again i am canadian ), but everyone wants to think there cool for saying shit like I have a GF, or I play sports, I go for a run every day. No one brags about playing starcraft for 10 hours straight and saying there badass, why? it's not the coolest shit in the world but who cares its stuff I enjoy and tons of other people do, why do people have to compare 2 completely different aspects of life. one is not better than the other please stop comparing SC and sports, they are not similiar in anyway, and that's OK
This is wildly off topic but it's just something that really bothers me and needed to get if off my chest, and no one reads the blogs
EPT
), but everyone wants to think there cool for saying shit like I have a GF, or I play sports, I go for a run every day. No one brags about playing starcraft for 10 hours straight and saying there badass, why? it's not the coolest shit in the world but who cares its stuff I enjoy and tons of other people do, why do people have to compare 2 completely different aspects of life. one is not better than the other please stop comparing SC and sports, they are not similiar in anyway, and that's OK
